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    Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity


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    Is this the only model being released ? JP?

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    Quote Originally Posted by yeti575inCA View Post
    Is this the only model being released ? JP?
    Yes, we will never release another model again...

    Seriously though, I can't get into any details, but if you were a company in our position, do you think you'd pour 3 or 4 years into developing this new technology and only release it on a single model?

    Stay tuned in the coming months, guys.

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    P.S. Tons more info at Yeticycles.com and just about every mountain bike media outlet known to man...

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    Thanks Jp for the quick response! I figured since the video with "Stretch" mentions it's good across all platforms....

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    Yeticycles.com does not appear to mention the wheel size - at least not that I could find. I assume that it is a 650b?
    Each bicycle owned exponentially increases the probability that none is working correctly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laffeaux View Post
    Yeticycles.com does not appear to mention the wheel size - at least not that I could find. I assume that it is a 650b?
    Yes, 650B.
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    Very cool but two things: the most anticipated bike was a 150MM rear travel 650b, and the "updated" switch is sleek but from watching the video, the movement of the suspension/rear triangle is very similar to the original switch, with the exception that it is a Yeti patent and not a Soto's.

    That said, I still love my 95c and would definitely consider this technology when the time comes get another bike, but I don't see that happening soon because the 95c is killer!

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    Any news on the frame price? Boy those look MIGHTY expensive.
    Lots of people said Yeti will own the new patent and won't pay royalty driving the price down but ... Yeah ... How much will a frame set cost?

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    Quote Originally Posted by John P. View Post
    Yes, 650B.
    Does the lack of a wheel size designation after the "SB" suggest that Switch Infinity bikes will be 650b/27.5" wheels only? Or perhaps each Switch Infinity bike with a specific amount of travel will only have one primary wheel size, e.g. an SB4 would only be offered as 29er, the SB5 a 650b, the SB6 a blah blah, etc.? Or perhaps I'm looking waaaay too much into the name here...

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    How has the experience been with the exposed lower pivots? The demo video shows the suspension cycling through the two small stanchions, for lack of a better, word. It seems based on where they're positioned low in the bike and totally exposed that they will just get completely mucked up??

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    It seems based on where they're positioned low in the bike and totally exposed that they will just get completely mucked up??
    yeah what he said....

    East coast rider here and those sliders look like sitting ducks for some red clay and sand to me. But I could be wrong. They are kind of tucked in there. I notice the maintanance states that you don't want to "over lubricate" the sliders. Nice to see the grease zerks on there too.
    "I'm the fastest of the slow guys"

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    Wow really impressive, looks nice and like the technology.. very clever stuff.

    Like others who live in wet climes the elephant in the room is clearly the maintenance, reliability, cleaning. I'd guess on 10% of my rides that entire link void would completely fill with mud. Looking at it I think I spy some grease ports?[edit: ahh yes they are]

    Wonder if the bushings are standard fox bushes or some special size..

    I understand the desire to show off the link and the open design helps with drainage but I'm surprised there aren't optional removable cover plates. Clearly not considered as there is no seal lip in the frame around the link. Looks too complex and tight in there to use neoprene successfully. Though a neoprene cover right round the frame could possibly work?.

    Still I'm sorely tempted but realistically I'll wait for a 66 replacement and what the reliability and warranty is on that link.

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    Yeti Website currently states its "Internal cable routing on rear triangle".. doesn't look like it to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashayk View Post
    How has the experience been with the exposed lower pivots? The demo video shows the suspension cycling through the two small stanchions, for lack of a better, word. It seems based on where they're positioned low in the bike and totally exposed that they will just get completely mucked up??
    Quote Originally Posted by terrible View Post
    yeah what he said....

    East coast rider here and those sliders look like sitting ducks for some red clay and sand to me. But I could be wrong. They are kind of tucked in there. I notice the maintanance states that you don't want to "over lubricate" the sliders. Nice to see the grease zerks on there too.
    Quote Originally Posted by RocketMagnet View Post
    Wow really impressive, looks nice and like the technology.. very clever stuff.

    Like others who live in wet climes the elephant in the room is clearly the maintenance, reliability, cleaning. I'd guess on 10% of my rides that entire link void would completely fill with mud. Looking at it I think I spy some grease ports?[edit: ahh yes they are]

    Wonder if the bushings are standard fox bushes or some special size..

    I understand the desire to show off the link and the open design helps with drainage but I'm surprised there aren't optional removable cover plates. Clearly not considered as there is no seal lip in the frame around the link. Looks too complex and tight in there to use neoprene successfully. Though a neoprene cover right round the frame could possibly work?.

    Still I'm sorely tempted but realistically I'll wait for a 66 replacement and what the reliability and warranty is on that link.
    Hey guys-
    Valid concerns. A couple things to consider: first, what you essentially have are FOX shock seals and stanchions. How often do you replace your shock seals? Once every year or two (at most) for me, and usually a lot less frequently than that.

    Second, our test mules ran 3 years with much more rudimentary hardware and seals, and there were literally zero failures with the mechanism.

    Third, FOX did some ridiculous testing on this, including one experiment in which they actually submerged it in the grittiest mud we could find and cycled it something like a million (!) times. No failures.

    Finally, we experimented with several different shrouds and sealing mechanisms, and unless we added a ton of weight by incorporating some elllaborate labyrinth seal system, we came away with the impression that it's better to just leave that area open and let debris move through, rather than potentially trap it inside and have a little pebble rattling around in there and driving you nuts.

    In the end, I think you'll all be happy with the durability of Swith Infinity.

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    Hello, Jerry.... I don't know sometimes....

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    I was literally on the Yeti site yesterday looking at the SB75, this is perfect timing!
    Unfortunately it doesn't seem I have any dealers nearby so maybe I can sort something out during the offseason or while my clavicle heals up

    Here's a review: Yeti SB5c - Review - Pinkbike

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    John,
    why the long chainstays (442mm) for a low travel trail bike? Or is this a tribute to the Switch Infinity system which needs a lot of room?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fadl View Post
    John,
    why the long chainstays (442mm) for a low travel trail bike? Or is this a tribute to the Switch Infinity system which needs a lot of room?
    John, if you went with 26er wheels you could bring that chainstay length in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fadl View Post
    John,
    why the long chainstays (442mm) for a low travel trail bike? Or is this a tribute to the Switch Infinity system which needs a lot of room?
    We messed around with some super short stays and some a bit longer, but in the end, we felt like 442 gave us the feel we were going for. Remember: this is a bit lower and slacker than most other bikes in the category, and it's meant to be ridden fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    John, if you went with 26er wheels you could bring that chainstay length in.
    Dammit... why didn't we think of that?!??
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    Quote Originally Posted by burndtjamb View Post

    I would like to thank Competitive Cyclist for taking the time to create a video that has absolutely zero information.

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    fox recommends...

    Well, Fox actually has fairly aggressive seal replacement schedules. 3-6 months for air cans, so I'm not totally sure that's a great benchmark. The mud cycling test is more convincing but cycling multiple times over a very short duration isn't entirely the same as fewer cycles over a longer period where the inevitable scratches in the stantions wil come into play. The experience with the current test mules is encouraging. Still, will be interested in hearing 6-month updates on the production models.

    Quote Originally Posted by John P. View Post
    Hey guys-
    Valid concerns. A couple things to consider: first, what you essentially have are FOX shock seals and stanchions. How often do you replace your shock seals? Once every year or two (at most) for me, and usually a lot less frequently than that.

    Second, our test mules ran 3 years with much more rudimentary hardware and seals, and there were literally zero failures with the mechanism.

    Third, FOX did some ridiculous testing on this, including one experiment in which they actually submerged it in the grittiest mud we could find and cycled it something like a million (!) times. No failures.

    Finally, we experimented with several different shrouds and sealing mechanisms, and unless we added a ton of weight by incorporating some elllaborate labyrinth seal system, we came away with the impression that it's better to just leave that area open and let debris move through, rather than potentially trap it inside and have a little pebble rattling around in there and driving you nuts.

    In the end, I think you'll all be happy with the durability of Swith Infinity.

    JP

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    5.1 pound frame weight. That can't be with the shock and the other doohickeys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashayk View Post
    Well, Fox actually has fairly aggressive seal replacement schedules. 3-6 months for air cans, so I'm not totally sure that's a great benchmark. The mud cycling test is more convincing but cycling multiple times over a very short duration isn't entirely the same as fewer cycles over a longer period where the inevitable scratches in the stantions wil come into play. The experience with the current test mules is encouraging. Still, will be interested in hearing 6-month updates on the production models.
    At least those seals won't have to be air tight like on a shock. Once a seal develops a tiny air leak, it probably remains good for keeping out dirt and moisture for a considerable time afterward.

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    hey JP, how about your send one out to Crested Butte for me to test on for a few thousand miles

    25.5lb 5" travel bike with 5yr warranty on the switch...well done! Definitely looks like an improvement on the current switch (which is hard to improve on since it's so good as it is). Any idea if Yeti is going to come to town with some demos when they have the 5 day Big Mountain Enduro here in CB? Can't wait to get on one!

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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    5.1 pound frame weight. That can't be with the shock and the other doohickeys.
    Yes, that's frame, shock, and SI mechanism. 5.1 lbs. complete. (boosh.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashayk View Post
    Well, Fox actually has fairly aggressive seal replacement schedules. 3-6 months for air cans, so I'm not totally sure that's a great benchmark. The mud cycling test is more convincing but cycling multiple times over a very short duration isn't entirely the same as fewer cycles over a longer period where the inevitable scratches in the stantions wil come into play. The experience with the current test mules is encouraging. Still, will be interested in hearing 6-month updates on the production models.
    I know what you're getting at, the service recommendations from Fox are absurdly short on a lot of their products, even basic oil changing service intervals. In realistic conditions, very few people change seals every 3-6 months on their bikes, more often than not, you change oil that frequently and apply new seals if a problem presents itself rather than preventatively and will rarely run into issues with the bike (My Fuel EX is still running strong on original seals with quarterly oil changes riding dry conditions and wiping them down religiously). But it's more a matter of how well they'll stand behind their products if something goes wrong that should be the deciding factor. I gotta admit, Marzocchi would have been a nicer name to throw on such a junction given their reputation for consistency in performance and their longer warranty and service interval period.

    I doubt Yeti is releasing anything they're not entirely confident in though, and from their reputation alone I'd say that they've thought it through and are happy with the results and the final product to go to market with it, and that alone from a company like Yeti is recommendation enough (for me at least), in the durability of the system.

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    Really bold move by Yeti here. Risky. Lots of folks will say "short travel, long chainstays, proprietary gizmo, no thanks." It's all just internet chatter until the reviews start coming in.

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    Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    Very interesting, can't wait to see it on the 6" platform!


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    Jared Graves: "And despite what the internet experts who have never ridden it will tell you, It is hugely durable, lightweight and works better than you can imagine, a game changer."

    -- this is all you need to know

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    Very positive first look on Vital:

    First Look: 2015 Yeti SB5c with Switch Infinity Technology - Features - Vital MTB

    Quote Originally Posted by BDKeg View Post
    Jared Graves: "And despite what the internet experts who have never ridden it will tell you, It is hugely durable, lightweight and works better than you can imagine, a game changer."

    -- this is all you need to know
    Absurd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldManBike View Post
    proprietary shock
    How do you figure that?

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    Press Fit bottom bracket…….. Booooooo!
    You gotta Get Up to Get Down!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogboy View Post
    How do you figure that?
    How about "proprietary gizmo" instead?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldManBike View Post
    How about "proprietary gizmo" instead?
    It's part of the suspension linkage. Those are all proprietary to respective bike brands.

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    Will there be frame only option?

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    JP, how about a trade-in program, I've a '12 MY SB95 ... ;^)

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    Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Only carbon unlike the 75 that was only aluminum.

    Frame only available? Lower end enduro build? I'd love a SLX/XT build.

    It's exactly everything I want in a bike right now. I could retire my ASR-7 to only the shuttle/park days.

    Beautiful race machine and a worthy ASR-5c replacement.

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    JP, how in the hell did you guys test ride this thing anywhere in Colorado without the internets blowing your cover?

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    I'm guessing the patent number posted at the end of the video is the "big story"
    Great stuff Yeti! Congrats!

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    Quote Originally Posted by John P. View Post
    Remember: this is a bit lower and slacker than most other bikes in the category, and it's meant to be ridden fast.
    I LOVE YOU... I mean Yeti! This approach to trail bikes is exactly why I went with you guys, that and USA! USA! USA!

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    Bike looks good, but god that Vital review sounded just like every other goosher bike review out there. Perfect this, perfect that, use all the travel, plush, small bump, pedal with no shock lever flip, goes downhill and pumps and manuals, bla bla bla bla bla

    The suspension design looks intriguing, looking forward to reading more about it
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBM30 View Post
    Will there be frame only option?
    One of the articles I read (maybe it was on Vital), mentioned that a frame only option would be coming later on.

    Edit: Nope! It was on Bike.
    Exclusive Video: Yeti launches new Switch Infinity suspension platform | BIKE Magazine

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    John are these available internationally yet?Frame only option?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogboy View Post
    It's part of the suspension linkage. Those are all proprietary to respective bike brands.
    Yeah. But they don't all have seals and stanchions to fail. It's more of a leap of faith. For some people, that kind of thing is a deal-breaker. Like I said originally, it's part of the risk Yeti's taking. I'm excited about the bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    Bike looks good, but god that Vital review sounded just like every other goosher bike review out there. Perfect this, perfect that, use all the travel, plush, small bump, pedal with no shock lever flip, goes downhill and pumps and manuals, bla bla bla bla bla

    The suspension design looks intriguing, looking forward to reading more about it
    But this is the bike that inspired confidence when the trail got rowdy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    5.1 pound frame weight. That can't be with the shock and the other doohickeys.
    I dunno, my large sb95 alloy with stock shock was ~7 pounds and the carbon version is ~2 pounds lighter, so that seems in the lane.

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    So, not to be a skeptic, but I wonder how much of this is driven by wanting to make a better-performing bike vs. having something they don't have to pay patent royalties on. From an engineering perspective this seems like a much more complex and less elegant solution than the original Switch, though I know that was not trouble-free either....

  49. #49
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    Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    JP - thoughts on sizing? I'd be right between S & M. Have you ridden one? What's the optimal stem size that Yeti designed around? 50? 40?

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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post
    So, not to be a skeptic, but I wonder how much of this is driven by wanting to make a better-performing bike vs. having something they don't have to pay patent royalties on. From an engineering perspective this seems like a much more complex and less elegant solution than the original Switch, though I know that was not trouble-free either....
    ^This... As much as I love Yeti (have SB95) I'm scratching my head a little.

    Geometry looks good though, nice long TT and reach. I'm 6.1 and feeling a little cramped on my Large SB95...

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    You [email protected]!!! Now you finally offer the Sram drivetrain with Shimano brakes! Ugh!

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    You read a lot of very positive trail bike reviews that "...blah blah bike X descends like a beast and with a quick flip of the shock switch it becomes a capable climber..." That's a huge red flag for me, I don't want to flip a switch (I flip it on my SB66 occasionally and half the time I forget to flip it back, get into the descent, and now it's too late to reach down). I like Yeti's approach of trying to build a suspension that just works, no shock switch required. I bet the real competition to infinity will come from electronic controls like what Lapierre is doing. Fun to see how this plays out over the next few years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John P. View Post
    We messed around with some super short stays and some a bit longer, but in the end, we felt like 442 gave us the feel we were going for.
    What was the 'feel' you were going for? To be more specific: how'd the bike behave with both short and longer chainstays, and what were the 'pros' of the longer chainstays that said 'yes, this is the design we want'.

    I can see those chainstay lengths driving a lot of people away. I'd definitely address that in your marketing in some way.

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    The bike looks great....I hope they build a 29er version, and I hope they expand the dealer network (like at least a single dealer in Virginia would be good).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haymarket View Post
    The bike looks great....I hope they build a 29er version, and I hope they expand the dealer network (like at least a single dealer in Virginia would be good).
    I don't feel like they need a 29er version with 5" travel ... and I say that owning and loving a SB95.

    And for shorter travel is the extra complexity of either Switch warranted? For someone that's really efficiency/XC-race oriented it seems to me that the ARC fills that slot.

    It's clear that "the industry" has gone all-in on 27.5 and I'd wager the smart companies are heading that direction too, even in some cases where technically it doesn't make the most sense.

    Personally, I'd expect in the long run that we'll end up with only 27.5 and 29 being viable. While I personally don't see a ton of benefit to 27.5 over 26 I do expect the 26er to get chased out for mostly pragmatic economic reasons in the long run. The really, really, long run.

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    I say great job to Yeti on a couple fronts...

    1. always innovating (switch is and was still fairly new techno)
    2. not releasing until they actually have bikes to sell now!! I remember your statement on that JP months ago! No waiting 6 months!

    Here is my question...regarding 27 vs 29 sizing..
    SB75, and ARC and Spec Enduros only up to size LG. Reason giving is taller peeps benefit from 29er. Ok I get that and it makes sense...

    Now..SB5c comes out and offered in XL... does the above not apply anymore?

    I think this is going to be a great bike, but also wanting and waiting to see it in a 6" travel 650b and SB95 update...

    Being 6'4 with 34" inseam I now find myself thinking...

    650b size XL or try 29er....

    #yetiissues...lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by bear View Post
    I don't feel like they need a 29er version with 5" travel ... and I say that owning and loving a SB95.

    And for shorter travel is the extra complexity of either Switch warranted? For someone that's really efficiency/XC-race oriented it seems to me that the ARC fills that slot.

    It's clear that "the industry" has gone all-in on 27.5 and I'd wager the smart companies are heading that direction too, even in some cases where technically it doesn't make the most sense.

    Personally, I'd expect in the long run that we'll end up with only 27.5 and 29 being viable. While I personally don't see a ton of benefit to 27.5 over 26 I do expect the 26er to get chased out for mostly pragmatic economic reasons in the long run. The really, really, long run.
    Why wouldn't they want to put the better technology on the 5" 29er platform as well? I don't get your point there...as to shorter travel, that makes sense, but if the tech is better for 5" 27.5, I would think the carryover to 29er would be a good thing. That is unless Yeti is betting that 27.5 will become the predominate platform sold in 5" bikes and doesn't want to invest in 29er anymore. The book is definitely out on that one. As to 26ers getting run out in the "long, long run"...I agree if that means less than 6 months, but otherwise, they have essentially disappeared from the mid-to high range line up of every bike manufacturer out there as consumer demand dried up overnight.

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    Why the Float 34 though? I realize they have a deal with Fox, but seriously, get them to step down the 36. No one is a fanboy of the 34. Most of the comparable bikes, ie Santa Cruz 5010, run a stepped down Pike, or a Revelation. I'm sure a large percentage of first adopters will be pulling that fork off. I am on my 95c.

  60. #60
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    I'm in my mid-30s, overweight, pretty slow and have no time to race. Will you sponsor me?

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haymarket View Post
    Why wouldn't they want to put the better technology on the 5" 29er platform as well? I don't get your point there...as to shorter travel, that makes sense, but if the tech is better for 5" 27.5, I would think the carryover to 29er would be a good thing. That is unless Yeti is betting that 27.5 will become the predominate platform sold in 5" bikes and doesn't want to invest in 29er anymore. The book is definitely out on that one. As to 26ers getting run out in the "long, long run"...I agree if that means less than 6 months, but otherwise, they have essentially disappeared from the mid-to high range line up of every bike manufacturer out there as consumer demand dried up overnight.
    The question I see is whether there is enough of a "compelling story" to *sell* a 5" travel 29er and a 5" travel 27.5er that are otherwise, ideologically, identical.

    I just don't see it being worth the R&D and product development, tooling, etc. Yeti doesn't sell *that* many bikes - they are not and don't try to to be Trek or Specialized with a "Y."

    Technically, it would probably be a tangible improvement over the SB95. But again, would it be worth-while to Yeti for them to do it? Worth-while means "generates enough sales to make it a clearly profitable action."

    I do think there'd be some kind of loss going from 29 to 27.5 (like I'd have to do), but whether that in the end balances in favor of the SB5c vs SB95 I don't know. I don't have the option to try them back-2-back on the same trails, and probably never will (not enough Yeti presence in my region). Maybe I'll find out in a couple years when I have to replace my SB with the next machine.

    If I had to guess, I'd guess that Yeti is in fact betting on 27.5 for the long haul. More of the industry is, probably, too.

    I do think 29er has more longevity for the mid-to-high end bikes than 26er, at this point, but I see the 29er getting squeezed out of applications where it's been touchy to implement satisfactorily - how many 6" travel 29ers are there, again?

    Part of my personal opinion comes from watching my wife trail ride. She's somewhere between n00b and intermediate, depending on how confident she feels on any given day. Her current bike is a *nice* 4" travel 26er (Titus Switchblade). I *solidly* believe she'd be better off at this point with a hard-tail 29er, for her riding. Stability, rollover, etc; but a short-travel and *light* 27.5 or 29er would be optimal. Something confidence inspiring and easy to ride, at sedate pace. One thing I've noticed about some *cough* bikes is that they're "happier" at speed. Not everyone wants to ride at speed, those bikes are not for those people.

    On the 26er thing, agreed - for the high end they're pretty much out. We're seeing them pushed out of the mid. At some point even the crap-bike builders will stop doing them for the simple cost metrics that the 27.5 stuff will be cheaper to deal with, in volume. I think we're a ways from that though as there's a TON of cheap crap out there at this point which needs to be consumed.

  62. #62
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    Caveat: armchair engineer here.

    This switch infinity thingamabob looked interesting.

    I guesstimated some geometry numbers of the rear triangle and modeled up something.
    I spent 10 minutes modeling this - I'm sure those awesome Yeti engineer spent years refining this - so please take my results with a grain of salt.

    With my guestimated model, I plotted out the wheel path. I varied the small linkage +/-20 deg relative to the linear "switch infinity" path, so it goes over top dead center - this represents about 4.6" of travel.

    Once the wheel path was modeled (the wheel path is a bunch of discreet points), I eyeballed and drew in best fit circle.
    So, yeah...the wheelpath follows that circle incredibly well...so does that mean the wheel path behaves like monolink?

    Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity-5c_wheelpath.jpg

  63. #63
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    Ok, so who ordered one? What delivery dates are you being quoted?

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    Will wait for the 29er version

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    Quote Originally Posted by John P. View Post
    Hey guys-
    Valid concerns. A couple things to consider: first, what you essentially have are FOX shock seals and stanchions. How often do you replace your shock seals? Once every year or two (at most) for me, and usually a lot less frequently than that.

    Second, our test mules ran 3 years with much more rudimentary hardware and seals, and there were literally zero failures with the mechanism.

    Third, FOX did some ridiculous testing on this, including one experiment in which they actually submerged it in the grittiest mud we could find and cycled it something like a million (!) times. No failures.

    Finally, we experimented with several different shrouds and sealing mechanisms, and unless we added a ton of weight by incorporating some elllaborate labyrinth seal system, we came away with the impression that it's better to just leave that area open and let debris move through, rather than potentially trap it inside and have a little pebble rattling around in there and driving you nuts.

    In the end, I think you'll all be happy with the durability of Swith Infinity.

    JP

    That's all well and good but the real indicator will be the warranty period applied to the link... so what is it :P

    Agree there would be little point to boxing it in if it added more weight and the things bomb proof anyway......

    My Shocks on my 575 and SB66 are up out of the way and generally protected by the frame from most of the grot but I still stick a lizard skin on to protect the shaft mainly not the seals. Hence my raised eyebrows at those lovely Kashima coated rails...

    A million cycles sounds like a big number but what does that equate to in real terms.. a years riding at 5 hours per week by my rough conservative calculation?

    Sorry it's an exciting time for Yeti and I feel like someone pointing out the flaws in a 5 year olds painting... but as you say they are valid concerns for us mud pluggers... I'll probably crumble and pick up the 66 replacement when it arrives though as I do like the idea of the rail system replacing the switch.. that's a neat solution to providing essentially the same thing. If those are standard bushes,bearings and replacement rails are cheap then it's not an issue. The sb66 switch is pretty expensive to run at £120 for a bearing set each year, which is ultimately why were asking these question in the first place

    It's a stunning looking bike IMO and I like the feel of the switch platform so if it rides as good as it looks being a bit of a diva won't matter to me as I actually secretly enjoy the maintenance side.

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    Re: Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by linger View Post
    Caveat: armchair engineer here.

    Once the wheel path was modeled (the wheel path is a bunch of discreet points), I eyeballed and drew in best fit circle.
    So, yeah...the wheelpath follows that circle incredibly well...so does that mean the wheel path behaves like a monolink
    Not going to critique your critique. Just wondering if taking an instantaneous centre type analysis provides any insight into how the locus varies from being a simple arc.

    We know that the instantaneous centre is the intersection between the projection of the two links. With the infinity link, we know the bottom link is the same normal angle projected from the bottom pivot axle. The upper dogbone has consistent rotation so the IC starts in front of the top of the chainring and migrates back. Because of the switch infinity's inflection point we also know the IC migrates above the chainline and then back down again.

    I don't know what it all means but it is evidently fiendish... and pretty

  67. #67
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    A lot of great discussion, but allow me to address the elephant in the room.. a $6600 price point ! I mean it's $800 more than the SB95c X01! Aside from the 5 people on this forum that might buy it, that puts it out of reach for the other 90% out there. I'm sure we'll see lower cost offerings with alloy in the future, but I'm surprised they didn't hit the $3500 - $4000 first to put that bike in more hands.. for more real world testing. I'm no SC fan but their 5010 carbon can be had with a respectable package for about $3600.

    What happens to the SB75 ? Replaced with the alloy version of SB5 ?

    What happens to the SB95 ? Replaced with the SB9 I suppose ?

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridetheridge View Post
    What happens to the SB95 ? Replaced with the SB9 I suppose ?
    If they create a 29er with 9 inches of travel ... well that will be something to see!

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridetheridge View Post
    A lot of great discussion, but allow me to address the elephant in the room.. a $6600 price point ! I mean it's $800 more than the SB95c X01! Aside from the 5 people on this forum that might buy it, that puts it out of reach for the other 90% out there. I'm sure we'll see lower cost offerings with alloy in the future, but I'm surprised they didn't hit the $3500 - $4000 first to put that bike in more hands.. for more real world testing. I'm no SC fan but their 5010 carbon can be had with a respectable package for about $3600.
    That is my thoughts. I'm semi-serious about a new bike right now. I'd been leaning toward the SC 5010. The Yeti is a bike I'd consider. However, the bike starts at $6600 and does not come equipped as I'd like it - I'd want a double chain ring, which after paying for the switch is going to put the price at $7k. Really? For a bike? I can get a nicely equipped Santa Cruz for $2000 less (which still seems like a lot of money). Unless the price comes down I can't see me considering the Yeti as a serious option (which is too bad).
    Each bicycle owned exponentially increases the probability that none is working correctly.

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    ... and if we just ...

    ...
    Last edited by Tempest3070; 09-16-2014 at 05:38 PM.

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    I haven't run across the fundamental mechanism worked out yet so I'll place it here.

    Note the linear sliders sit at a ~10 degree angle, oriented slightly rearward of vertical. This causes the chainstay dimension to lengthen when the RT is pulled upward. Also note that over the compression travel from fully extended to when the upper pivot is vertical, the pivot pulls the RT upwards. This forms a chain-pull type antisquat relationship over this first portion of the stroke. Also, the upper link gives regressive spring rate from fully extended to when the upper link is vertical. Deeper in the stroke, past when the upper link is vertical, the upper link provides increasingly progressive stroke.

    Since the mechanism uses a slider instead of a link, the action is disjoint from existing patents.

    It appears to me that these points are the design goals of the new release. In some of the Yeti videos they describe the issue with the previous eccentric design whereby the eccentric would jam at the top of its stroke. For this reason it makes perfect sense to replace the eccentric with a linear bearing. However the linear bearing eliminates the forward-backward movement resulting from a typical link that can be used to modulate chainstay length, so as an alternative the linear bearing is oriented at a constant angle.

    One caveat of a linear bearing is that the antisquat is oriented in the negative direction after the upper link passes vertical. A seemingly preferred description of this is that the bike 'becomes more plush deeper in the travel'.

    The design makes sense, I'd like to try it out. As posted above the durability is probably similar to that of other shocks and seals.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by bear View Post
    I just don't see it being worth the R&D and product development, tooling, etc. Yeti doesn't sell *that* many bikes - they are not and don't try to to be Trek or Specialized with a "Y."

    Technically, it would probably be a tangible improvement over the SB95. But again, would it be worth-while to Yeti for them to do it? Worth-while means "generates enough sales to make it a clearly profitable action.".
    Just a guess...

    As a person that was involved in a heavily patented industry (I was the president of an extreme sporting goods manufacturing company), I'm guessing that this move from the rotating switch to the linear switch is more based upon patents and royalties/infringements than "significant ride improvement".

    ...just a guess FWIW.

    cheers

  73. #73
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    Re: Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Geek View Post
    Just a guess...

    As a person that was involved in a heavily patented industry (I was the president of an extreme sporting goods manufacturing company), I'm guessing that this move from the rotating switch to the linear switch is more based upon patents and royalties/infringements than "significant ride improvement".

    ...just a guess FWIW.

    cheers
    Potentially. At the same time, Yeti wouldnt make a bike that didnt kick butt. Is it better than FSR with a well tuned shock? meh, its subjective. Ive ridden several fancy suspension bikes, and I wasnt blown away at the differences. Its all very marginal.

  74. #74
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    I hope this is definite jump in performance, because visually is not nearly as elegant and fluid as the Switch, which seems to work the way it looks. I am an Architect so I may be biased in some ways.

    As a designer, for me performance is paramount and a priority, but good design should also look good and I am afraid this is not yet there. It just seems very clunky and cumbersome. Still, I love what YETI stands for and value their courage to keep innovating. Also, they did a fairly good job inserting this contraption into a great looking frame without making it too offensive.

    Still, if you placed an SB5c next to a SB66c or SB95c, I am afraid the older bikes would look as the more evolved, refined and developed models. I think that is a problem, but again, I may be bias.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geek View Post
    Just a guess...

    As a person that was involved in a heavily patented industry (I was the president of an extreme sporting goods manufacturing company), I'm guessing that this move from the rotating switch to the linear switch is more based upon patents and royalties/infringements than "significant ride improvement".

    ...just a guess FWIW.

    cheers
    I assumed that Yeti owns the Switch technology. No one else has anything like it. So I also assume (I know the problem with assuming), that the change is due to reliability and customer complaints and warranty issues with the original design.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest3070 View Post
    Bummer. Not everyone can afford the Murcielago - if this is somehow unfair to you you might want to tighten your helmet as the rest of life is going to be pretty shocking.
    Being in my late 40s, a home owner, earning more than the average person in the US, and having ridden mountain bikes for 20+ years I probably fit the Yeti's demographic for this bike pretty well. However, a starting price of nearly $7k is not realistic for selling many bikes IMO. The number of units that can be moved at such a high price is pretty small - maybe that is Yeti's plan. To increase the volume of sales prices will need to come down. That's all I'm saying.
    Each bicycle owned exponentially increases the probability that none is working correctly.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    I assumed that Yeti owns the Switch technology. No one else has anything like it. So I also assume (I know the problem with assuming), that the change is due to reliability and customer complaints and warranty issues with the original design.
    If you read these boards often, you know exactly what issues these bikes are or are not having. I am still to hear of a problem with the switch technology. I am sure some people have had problems, but it is not pervasive enough or we would have read never ending treads of those affected.

  78. #78
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    Just buy the SB66 frame on closeout over at Backcountry. This new design will be great though

    Yeti Cycles SB-66 Mountain Bike Frame - 2013 | Backcountry.com
    Proud Tribe member since 1992 - looking for better singletrack to be ridden year round

  79. #79
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    Re: Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by jftoha View Post
    I hope this is definite jump in performance, because visually is not nearly as elegant and fluid as the Switch, which seems to work the way it looks. I am an Architect so I may be biased in some ways.

    As a designer, for me performance is paramount and a priority, but good design should also look good and I am afraid this is not yet there.
    Let me try to illuminate the elegance, as an engineer.

    Point 1. Switch had rotating elements. The eccentric arrangement means packaging a small bearing within a large bearing. The small bearing is marginal for carrying the loads asked of it and you need to be on the lookout to regularly inspect/replace.

    Point 2. The short link in Switch is in danger of going over-center at the inflexion point so it requires a bump stop bolt. The bump stop rubber gets broken up and needs regular inspection. To replace you need a) to find an in-stock bump stop b) dismantle the Switch to get the old munched bumpstop out.

    Point 3. The overcentering nature of the Switch short link causes a suspension hang-up in the mid stroke when the bump stop is worn/missing because the continuing swingarm motion is trying to drive the Switch onward, hard against the stub of the bumpstop bolt. You hear a knocking sound from the suspension in the midstroke. These hang-ups and the peak loads associated with them contribute to cracking swingarm at the weld (SB66a). Later designs (SB95, SB75) may have compromised kinematics to make them less prone to over-center.

    Point 4. The Switch eccentric small bearings cope with a very small rocking angular displacement. In practice, these bearings seize with minor contamination. They require regular inspection and replacement.

    Point 5. With Switch, the dogbone drives the shock. The upper section of the dogbone is cantilevered up to the shock mount and has needed redesign to strengthen it.

    With Switch Infinity, there is a high load bushing arrangement rather than a vulnerable bearing. This solves Points 1 and 4.

    With Switch Infinity, the infinite link cannot go over-center. This solves Points 2 and 3.

    With Switch Infinity, the swingarm drives the shock. This solves Point 5.

    The geometry is spot on. The kinematics are best explained as moderating the downsides of single pivot, just like Switch (even if different in detail). I'm expecting no problems at all with the sliding elements longevity and exposure to the muck; they'll handle a 4mm, slow speed, reciprocating stroke without having to keep a high pressure air tight seal.

    I'm expecting excellent performance and fewer reliability issues.

    Sent from my GT-N5120 using Tapatalk 2

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by John P. View Post
    We messed around with some super short stays and some a bit longer, but in the end, we felt like 442 gave us the feel we were going for. Remember: this is a bit lower and slacker than most other bikes in the category, and it's meant to be ridden fast.
    I'm sorry, but this smells like BS. The wheelbase on the new bike is quite long, longer than the SB-95, longer than all of the comparable 27.5 bikes by quite a bit... There are popular bikes out there with dual link suspensions, and inch more travel, and much shorter wheelbases. I have a hard time believing that this was the "perfect geometry" when the location of the SI mechanism clearly limits how short you can go with the chainstays.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hillharman View Post
    I'm sorry, but this smells like BS. The wheelbase on the new bike is quite long, longer than the SB-95, longer than all of the comparable 27.5 bikes by quite a bit... There are popular bikes out there with dual link suspensions, and inch more travel, and much shorter wheelbases. I have a hard time believing that this was the "perfect geometry" when the location of the SI mechanism clearly limits how short you can go with the chainstays.
    The SB5C chain stay is the same as the SB75 which does not have SI.

  82. #82
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    John P any feedback on running a 150mm fork. Most Yetis give numbers for different forks.. I see only numbers for 140mm fork. Wondering if this would be a good replacement to my sb66c

  83. #83
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    So the frame has a 5 year warranty but I read elsewhere Conroy stated the switch mech was 2 years , Is this correct ?

    I look forward to ride reports from those attending the Tribe Gathering.

  84. #84
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    Re: Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by hillharman View Post
    I'm sorry, but this smells like BS. The wheelbase on the new bike is quite long, longer than the SB-95, longer than all of the comparable 27.5 bikes by quite a bit... There are popular bikes out there with dual link suspensions, and inch more travel, and much shorter wheelbases. I have a hard time believing that this was the "perfect geometry" when the location of the SI mechanism clearly limits how short you can go with the chainstays.
    Not everyone is in love with tiny chainstays. As they said, the low and long combo is meant to be fast and stable.

  85. #85
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    Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    Makes more sense to do that in the future long travel model, imo. The old ASR5 was short, sprinty and sprightly. Guess they went in a different direction with this one.

  86. #86
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    this is a pretty serious indictment...

    Of the current design. Did people, in practice, have serious reliability, maintenance issues with Switch?

    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    Let me try to illuminate the elegance, as an engineer.

    Point 1. Switch had rotating elements. The eccentric arrangement means packaging a small bearing within a large bearing. The small bearing is marginal for carrying the loads asked of it and you need to be on the lookout to regularly inspect/replace.

    Point 2. The short link in Switch is in danger of going over-center at the inflexion point so it requires a bump stop bolt. The bump stop rubber gets broken up and needs regular inspection. To replace you need a) to find an in-stock bump stop b) dismantle the Switch to get the old munched bumpstop out.

    Point 3. The overcentering nature of the Switch short link causes a suspension hang-up in the mid stroke when the bump stop is worn/missing because the continuing swingarm motion is trying to drive the Switch onward, hard against the stub of the bumpstop bolt. You hear a knocking sound from the suspension in the midstroke. These hang-ups and the peak loads associated with them contribute to cracking swingarm at the weld (SB66a). Later designs (SB95, SB75) may have compromised kinematics to make them less prone to over-center.

    Point 4. The Switch eccentric small bearings cope with a very small rocking angular displacement. In practice, these bearings seize with minor contamination. They require regular inspection and replacement.

    Point 5. With Switch, the dogbone drives the shock. The upper section of the dogbone is cantilevered up to the shock mount and has needed redesign to strengthen it.

    With Switch Infinity, there is a high load bushing arrangement rather than a vulnerable bearing. This solves Points 1 and 4.

    With Switch Infinity, the infinite link cannot go over-center. This solves Points 2 and 3.

    With Switch Infinity, the swingarm drives the shock. This solves Point 5.

    The geometry is spot on. The kinematics are best explained as moderating the downsides of single pivot, just like Switch (even if different in detail). I'm expecting no problems at all with the sliding elements longevity and exposure to the muck; they'll handle a 4mm, slow speed, reciprocating stroke without having to keep a high pressure air tight seal.

    I'm expecting excellent performance and fewer reliability issues.

    Sent from my GT-N5120 using Tapatalk 2

  87. #87
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    Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    I don't plan on replacing my SB95 anytime soon, but this bike (or a variant) will certainly be on my radar when I do. Love my SB95.

  88. #88
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    Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by geo025 View Post
    So the frame has a 5 year warranty but I read elsewhere Conroy stated the switch mech was 2 years , Is this correct ?

    I look forward to ride reports from those attending the Tribe Gathering.
    it's 5 years frame and switch

  89. #89
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    Anyone watch the new Yeti video for the SB5c? I like that paint scheme of the turquoise with a little bit of yellow accent. Much better than the turquoise scheme they released (in my opinion).

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    I assumed that Yeti owns the Switch technology. No one else has anything like it. So I also assume (I know the problem with assuming), that the change is due to reliability and customer complaints and warranty issues with the original design.
    They licensed it from Sotto - that was widely reported in the original Switch media coverage. And Santa Cruz sued Yeti a couple years ago, presumably over patent infringement on VPP. I haven't seen anything on that recently, so no idea where that went, or if any of the above had any influence on the change.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillharman View Post
    I'm sorry, but this smells like BS. The wheelbase on the new bike is quite long, longer than the SB-95, longer than all of the comparable 27.5 bikes by quite a bit... There are popular bikes out there with dual link suspensions, and inch more travel, and much shorter wheelbases. I have a hard time believing that this was the "perfect geometry" when the location of the SI mechanism clearly limits how short you can go with the chainstays.
    Looks like the difference is more in the front end. The SB5c has a chainstay of 17.4" and a wheelbase (on the L) of 46.6. You may be comparing different bikes, but the Bronson has a 45.87" wheelbase (on the L) and a 17.28" chainstay (difference of 0.12"). The Trance has a 46.3" wheelbase and a 17.3" chainstay (difference of 0.1"). The Mach 6 has a wheelbase of 45.43" and a chainstay of 16.95" (difference of 0.45"). Also, the SB75 has a longer wheelbase at 46.8" (on the L) with the same chainstay.

    I'm not sure what all of that means for the ride, but seems like it might not be BS.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by feltbee View Post
    Anyone watch the new Yeti video for the SB5c? I like that paint scheme of the turquoise with a little bit of yellow accent. Much better than the turquoise scheme they released (in my opinion).
    Which one? All the videos are relatively new at barely a day old

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    Re: Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    Once again, it seems like Yeti has designed an unessarily-over-complicated suspension design, with very proprietary parts, to achieve what more simple systems can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest3070 View Post
    Bummer. Not everyone can afford the Murcielago - if this is somehow unfair to you you might want to tighten your helmet as the rest of life is going to be pretty shocking.
    That is a pretty ridiculous statement to make, and I agree with @laffeaux 100%. It's a bicycle. I have enough money put away to buy this thing if I wanted. No way on earth will I spend nearly 7k for a bicycle, and I LOVE to mountain bike.

    But I also ride moto and check this out: I can buy a new '14 KTM 300 XC for about $7000. Take a minute and go look what you get for a $7000 KTM motorcycle compared to the potentially 7k of the new SB5.

    It's apples & oranges but how could you expect me not to make that comparison?

    Yeti can price their machines however they want, and yes I'm sure they will offer models with lower price-points eventually.

    There are plenty of options out there just as @laffeaux eluded to and I'm heading in his direction as well. I'm definitely going carbon next year; I'll wait to see what pans out when they release a 29 version of this platform, but I'm assuming the price won't suddenly be more attainable. I'd love to hear their reasoning and breakdown for this base price point.

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    so when do sb75 & sb95 bikes with the old switch suspension go on sale?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FastBanana View Post
    Not everyone is in love with tiny chainstays. As they said, the low and long combo is meant to be fast and stable.
    It's not even that low, but keep sucking down the marketing. If you need your 5" "nimble" trail bike to have a DH bike wheel base to be stable, then go for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by objectuser View Post
    Looks like the difference is more in the front end. The SB5c has a chainstay of 17.4" and a wheelbase (on the L) of 46.6. You may be comparing different bikes, but the Bronson has a 45.87" wheelbase (on the L) and a 17.28" chainstay (difference of 0.12"). The Trance has a 46.3" wheelbase and a 17.3" chainstay (difference of 0.1"). The Mach 6 has a wheelbase of 45.43" and a chainstay of 16.95" (difference of 0.45"). Also, the SB75 has a longer wheelbase at 46.8" (on the L) with the same chainstay.

    I'm not sure what all of that means for the ride, but seems like it might not be BS.
    I get going to long front centers, but if you have limitations at the chainstays, what you end up with is a long wheelbase, and the SB-5C has a really long wheelbase. It's even longer than the SB-66 (which has pretty compact chainstays). I'll be really interested to see what the longer travel new bike looks like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegard View Post
    Which one? All the videos are relatively new at barely a day old
    Good point! There was an even newer email blast this morning with a video of Joey riding in the San Juans. Here's a link to it on Vimeo.

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    Those riding videos usually bore the crap out of me but that has great photography, awesome scenery, and cool bike riding skills. Pretty good.

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    Re: Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    I'm not sure if anyone made this point (tl;dr)

    But, thinking about this, I like this move. Yeah the linkage is a little overkill for what it's trying to do.

    however, think about this : the link is basically a little geared slider that has some position y given some rotation 'theta' in the lower pivot.

    Fox could build all different variants of these, which, when combined with specific bikes, could yield lots of different ride characteristics and wheel paths.

    Also, fox could build them with pro pedal style switches which change the characteristics in-ride - between extremes which maximizing plushness or minimize pedal input.

    And you could get around patents by shipping the bike with one that didn't break any patents (or none at all) and replacing it with one that has the ride characteristics you want in-store.

    Fox probably has a contract for several years with yeti on the linkage and we won't see it on other mfctrs bikes any time soon. But when we do it could lead to a lot more iteration and innovation in the market.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hillharman View Post
    I get going to long front centers, but if you have limitations at the chainstays, what you end up with is a long wheelbase, and the SB-5C has a really long wheelbase. It's even longer than the SB-66 (which has pretty compact chainstays). I'll be really interested to see what the longer travel new bike looks like.
    My point is, this criticism applies equally to the Switch suspension bikes since the SB75 has an equal chainstay and longer wheelbase. So from the numbers, I don't see how Switch Infinity can be criticized for requiring a longer chainstay, and therefore, this doesn't, on its face, appear to warrant the BS invocation.

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by laffeaux View Post
    Being in my late 40s, a home owner, earning more than the average person in the US, and having ridden mountain bikes for 20+ years I probably fit the Yeti's demographic for this bike pretty well. However, a starting price of nearly $7k is not realistic for selling many bikes IMO. The number of units that can be moved at such a high price is pretty small - maybe that is Yeti's plan. To increase the volume of sales prices will need to come down. That's all I'm saying.
    I'm with you. My take is this is a showcase bike - drives up buzz and gets people looking at Yeti. There will surely more affordable builds in the coming months. Question though is will they have an aluminum version. The way the Switch Link Infinity packages, the carbon structure can easily be designed around it since you're only limitation is mold shape. Hydroformed and/or welded aluminum (or even a cast piece welded in) would be trickier.

    In any case, I'm hoping it trickles down. Or at least provide a frame-only option (which I don't see yet). I can probably justify 5K ish... 7K is pushing it. But I will start saving... I could go for the SB5, but also curious if a 6" version is forthcoming. In the meantime, the 575 will chug on.

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  103. #103
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    I will never buy a bike with a Press Fit bottom bracket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    I'm not sure if anyone made this point (tl;dr)

    But, thinking about this, I like this move. Yeah the linkage is a little overkill for what it's trying to do.

    however, think about this : the link is basically a little geared slider that has some position y given some rotation 'theta' in the lower pivot.

    Fox could build all different variants of these, which, when combined with specific bikes, could yield lots of different ride characteristics and wheel paths.

    And you could get around patents by shipping the bike with one that didn't break any patents (or none at all) and replacing it with one that has the ride characteristics you want in-store.

    Fox probably has a contract for several years with yeti on the linkage and we won't see it on other mfctrs bikes any time soon. But when we do it could lead to a lot more iteration and innovation in the market.
    I don't see this as being any more flexible for defining different axle paths than any other multi pivot design. In fact it seems more constrained since the virtual pivot point (which is more accurately a moving "actual pivot point") can only move a small amount and in a straight line vertically. 4 bar designs can have the VPP moving in all kinds of weird and far reaching curves. Not that I think that really matters as far as performance is concerned.

    I also think you are a little off in your understanding of patents. The unique characteristics of the mechanical structure should be patented (I haven't read it), and can be tweaked for different axle paths or other characteristics and still remain covered under the patent. Good patents protect from the owner from being copied by small and obvious adjustments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KGAmoto View Post
    That is a pretty ridiculous statement to make, and I agree with @laffeaux 100%. It's a bicycle. I have enough money put away to buy this thing if I wanted. No way on earth will I spend nearly 7k for a bicycle, and I LOVE to mountain bike.

    But I also ride moto and check this out: I can buy a new '14 KTM 300 XC for about $7000. Take a minute and go look what you get for a $7000 KTM motorcycle compared to the potentially 7k of the new SB5.

    It's apples & oranges but how could you expect me not to make that comparison?

    Yeti can price their machines however they want, and yes I'm sure they will offer models with lower price-points eventually.

    There are plenty of options out there just as @laffeaux eluded to and I'm heading in his direction as well. I'm definitely going carbon next year; I'll wait to see what pans out when they release a 29 version of this platform, but I'm assuming the price won't suddenly be more attainable. I'd love to hear their reasoning and breakdown for this base price point.
    So don't buy it. That's the simple answer. If companies want to make awesome flagship models at higher price points, that's their business. You are not entitled to a flagship model at a bargain-basement price point. As far as the moto comparison goes, it's an apples and oranges thing, exactly as you say- it makes no sense to bring it up. You can also get a very nice vacation, a shitty new car or nicer used one, or 7000 packs of gum. So what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by objectuser View Post
    My point is, this criticism applies equally to the Switch suspension bikes since the SB75 has an equal chainstay and longer wheelbase. So from the numbers, I don't see how Switch Infinity can be criticized for requiring a longer chainstay, and therefore, this doesn't, on its face, appear to warrant the BS invocation.
    People may disagree with this, but it seems clear the SB-75 was something of a bandaid to get them into the 27.5" game while this bike finished development. I don't think it's a paragon of geometry, exactly. My main point is that you can't just extend the front center indefinitely without paying attention to the overall wheelbase. So it's not that the chain stays are "long" necessarily. It's that the bike has a very long front center and still not short chain stays. What you end up with is the wheelbase of a 6" AM or bigger DH wheelbase on a 5" trail bike. That's something I have a hard time getting excited about. The idea that long chain stays are required for "stability" is crazy. The 29er world has been thinking about this for a long time now.

    We'll have to wait and see what the bikes look like at full compression once people get their hands on them, but from the geometry blue prints, it looks pretty clear that there's more clearance at the seat tube/BB junction with the original Switch than with the SI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WaffleStomp View Post
    So don't buy it. That's the simple answer. If companies want to make awesome flagship models at higher price points, that's their business. You are not entitled to a flagship model at a bargain-basement price point. As far as the moto comparison goes, it's an apples and oranges thing, exactly as you say- it makes no sense to bring it up. You can also get a very nice vacation, a shitty new car or nicer used one, or 7000 packs of gum. So what?
    It's hard to really know until the frame only prices come out. If the frame ends up being $500-800 more than comparable frames from other companies, then yeah, you are paying a tax on a Rube Goldberg solution to patent issues, most likely.

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    I don't see this as being any more flexible for defining different axle paths than any other multi pivot design. In fact it seems more constrained since the virtual pivot point (which is more accurately a moving "actual pivot point") can only move a small amount and in a straight line vertically.
    Fair point.

    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    I also think you are a little off in your understanding of patents. The unique characteristics of the mechanical structure should be patented (I haven't read it), and can be tweaked for different axle paths or other characteristics and still remain covered under the patent. Good patents protect from the owner from being copied by small and obvious adjustments.
    My point is, any end user swapping parts is still insulated from patent litigation. Even if the end user buys and assembles parts which, in their totality, exactly replicate a patented design, no one is going to go find them and sue them. And I don't think anyone would sue small LBS for assembling them either, but I could be wrong.

    Once Fox's link is out of Yeti contract (not sure if there is one or how long but its a good bet that Fox is not allowed to use this on other bikes for X years), other manufactures could offer similar frames which do not violate patents, with slightly different pivot points, chainstay lengths, etc., when combined with the link, or different variations of the link, could yield very similar ride characteristics which are assembled in store and do not violate any patent.

    But, yes this all assumes there's enough variability and flexibility the new link, combined with different frame designs . . . which, per your point 1, is actually somewhat limited.

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillharman View Post
    It's hard to really know until the frame only prices come out. If the frame ends up being $500-800 more than comparable frames from other companies, then yeah, you are paying a tax on a Rube Goldberg solution to patent issues, most likely.
    I don't know why this presumed patent issue keeps coming up. As far as I know, Yeti owns the Switch patent, and no one else has anything similar, so there should be no problems with that patent infringing on any other.
    So, I would think that Yeti can continue using Switch technology without issue for as long as they want. The reason to come up with something different had to be something other than a patent problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KGAmoto View Post
    But I also ride moto and check this out: I can buy a new '14 KTM 300 XC for about $7000. Take a minute and go look what you get for a $7000 KTM motorcycle compared to the potentially 7k of the new SB5.
    i hear this a lot from a lot of people. More people are getting into moto just because of the price aspect now. I mean damn, you can get a nice sled for winter for 7k.

    if the market bears a 7k or 10k bike they will sell them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WaffleStomp View Post
    As far as the moto comparison goes, it's an apples and oranges thing, exactly as you say- it makes no sense to bring it up.
    It's hard not to bring it up when you live in a mountain town where you can literally bike, sled and moto right from your back door. Price is a huge factor in small towns that people choose to live in for the outdoor activities and not for economic opportunities, but also a tiny fraction of the market for bike manufacturers. Most of their market comes from bigger cities like Denver, ect. hence why the price keeps going up because people will pay that much for new bikes.

  112. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaffleStomp View Post
    So don't buy it. That's the simple answer. If companies want to make awesome flagship models at higher price points, that's their business. You are not entitled to a flagship model at a bargain-basement price point. As far as the moto comparison goes, it's an apples and oranges thing, exactly as you say- it makes no sense to bring it up. You can also get a very nice vacation, a shitty new car or nicer used one, or 7000 packs of gum. So what?
    You are not making any sense with your counter-point. Say whatever you want, but moto and mtb do have a loose relationship - I certainly have a valid point. That's why I got into MTB - it is great training for motocross. Tons of professional motocross athletes ride mtb for training.

    But for me, they are (now) both about fun.

    Look at it this way: I can either buy second KTM for $7000, or buy a new bicycle? No way - motorcycle wins. I feel there is way more VALUE and WHAT I GET FOR MY MONEY (key to all of this) in the purchase of a motorcycle, for nearly the same price.

    This should be easy to understand.

    Edit: look before any one else gets all bunched up, I realize that my point of view is a rare one and the minority. My other moto & mtb buddies share the same thought on 6k+ bicycles, but yeah I get it - tbis is their flagship bike to showcase the new design at the highest level. This was simply my own point of view. I also understand that possibly most MTBRs don't like the moto types, so I'll just leave it all at that and give praise to Yeti for the innovation. I love my SB 95 and enjoy both sports.
    Last edited by KGAmoto; 07-18-2014 at 02:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KGAmoto View Post
    That is a pretty ridiculous statement to make, and I agree with @laffeaux 100%. It's a bicycle. I have enough money put away to buy this thing if I wanted. No way on earth will I spend nearly 7k for a bicycle, and I LOVE to mountain bike.

    But I also ride moto and check this out: I can buy a new '14 KTM 300 XC for about $7000. Take a minute and go look what you get for a $7000 KTM motorcycle compared to the potentially 7k of the new SB5.

    It's apples & oranges but how could you expect me not to make that comparison?

    Yeti can price their machines however they want, and yes I'm sure they will offer models with lower price-points eventually.

    There are plenty of options out there just as @laffeaux eluded to and I'm heading in his direction as well. I'm definitely going carbon next year; I'll wait to see what pans out when they release a 29 version of this platform, but I'm assuming the price won't suddenly be more attainable. I'd love to hear their reasoning and breakdown for this base price point.
    If you're arguing that the Murcialago is overpriced because you can buy a Unimog for that cost I can see where you're going, otherwise I don't see the comparison making a lot of sense - the KTM weighs hundreds of pounds and requires gas to move. The bicycle weighs essentially nothing by comparison and can descend trails the KTM can't begin to touch.

    How is the motorcycle a better investment in cash for me as a mountain biker? If you want to make the argument that you can have 100% as much fun on a used SB95 I'll entertain that, but comparing the cost of a bicycle made of aerospace materials to the cost of a mass produced moto doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

  114. #114
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    I think the comparison is about relative material costs, technology, fabrication, Design costs etc. It is a good illustration of how overpriced bikes are. But the correct price is the price the market will bear.

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    Yeti is not just pricing this bike high for fun. Costs are controlled by sales volume. Low volumes equal high cost. If Yeti sell 100k of these and the price is still 7k than its a money grab. I doubt they are selling that many bikes.

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    That flux capacitor should work well with the hydrogen fuel cell..

  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGAmoto View Post
    ...I feel there is way more VALUE and WHAT I GET FOR MY MONEY (key to all of this) in the purchase of a motorcycle, for nearly the same price.
    You almost get to the point here (my bold added).

    The simple deal is, IMO, that some people get more value out of the pedal-bike for the same cost vs the gas-bike. shrug. it's really down to personal preference, in both cases both parties are willing to spend a LOT of (hopefully) discretionary income on the hobby.

    If it's not a hobby, and they're pro riders making their job on two wheels, that's a WHOLE different game.

    ps. there could be a case made for there being lower "running cost" aka "cost of ownership" of the pedal bike simply for the lack of required petrolium product (or synthetic equivalents), but i'm not sure that's a meaningful part of the whole equation when compared to both parties driving-to-the-ride, post-ride activities, ride-prep-activities, etc.

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    I don't know why this presumed patent issue keeps coming up. As far as I know, Yeti owns the Switch patent, and no one else has anything similar, so there should be no problems with that patent infringing on any other.
    So, I would think that Yeti can continue using Switch technology without issue for as long as they want. The reason to come up with something different had to be something other than a patent problem.
    I don't know all of the details, but there were definitely IP issues with Switch. No idea if or how they were resolved.

  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by bear View Post
    You almost get to the point here (my bold added).

    The simple deal is, IMO, that some people get more value out of the pedal-bike for the same cost vs the gas-bike. shrug. it's really down to personal preference, in both cases both parties are willing to spend a LOT of (hopefully) discretionary income on the hobby.

    If it's not a hobby, and they're pro riders making their job on two wheels, that's a WHOLE different game.

    ps. there could be a case made for there being lower "running cost" aka "cost of ownership" of the pedal bike simply for the lack of required petrolium product (or synthetic equivalents), but i'm not sure that's a meaningful part of the whole equation when compared to both parties driving-to-the-ride, post-ride activities, ride-prep-activities, etc.
    Yeah thanks Bear. All in all, what I think is not a big deal and I certainly realize I have a unique opinion with moto and mtb. I have mutual respect for both. Apparently new people come out of the woodwork to stir feathers when a new product is released.

    The funny thing is, whenever the subject of MTB comes up on a moto forum, there never is any negative commentary or lashing out against the pedaling brethren. But as soon as you mention something with a motor in here, the lashing begins. Really weird how that works. Again, that was just my outlook on the MSRP of this new bike. Surely there will be more affordable alloy versions, but my buddies and I always comment on how insanely expensive bikes can get. Obviously my point of view is irrelevant if you're not into moto. That's all.

  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGAmoto View Post
    ... MTB comes up on a moto forum, there never is any negative commentary ...soon as you mention something with a motor in here, the lashing begins ...
    I'm sure (hah) there's plenty of people "keeping out of it" here, but the sad truth is that the MTB crowd has had the uphill-fight for access and trails pretty much everywhere, and the perception is that moto hasn't had it as bad, so there's a bunch of reactive behavior. No surprise.

    I personally have no clue how much the moto crowd has to fight for access, I'm just a bicycle d00d, but it's downright silly that in every place I've lived in the USA (MD, VA, TX, PA) the people with internal combustion have more access and the cyclists are blamed for more damage to the environment.

    shrug.

    a wise person once said "it is what it is."

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    Ok, so you can get a pretty good dirt bike for $7k. The bike comes in one size, the design is largely unchanged from year to year. Each year there are subtle r and d changes. You get a stock build which is pretty good... Consider stock build to be on comparison to Deore or SLX build at best. Want a 5 year warranty? Forget about it, it comes with no warranty.

    Want a competitive bike or to bling it up, go and get a Showa A fork kit, motor mods and exhaust system, Hinson clutch, new wheels, handle bars, triple clamps, levers, throttle body... The list goes on and so do the costs, we have at least doubled the cost of your stock bike.

    The point I want to make is that you are talking about a top of the line mtb with top of the line components. You are comparing this to a mass produced one size fits all dirt bike with stock components.

    If you want a cheap mass produced mtb with average build, you can get one for $2-3k. The decision is yours...

  122. #122
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    Don't need to upgrade a KTM. they come pimped. maybe a skid plate. I run mine stock.

    Also Moto has a WAAAAY harder time getting access to trails than MTB does. The MTB here is constantly confiscating 20 year old moto trails and turning them to biking trails.

    Back to the new Yeti, it looks sweet but I want a 26" 7" travel version.
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    About as pimped as an SLX built alloy mtb. I do not mean to diss SLX, it's good stuff but you get my point.

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTMDirtFace View Post
    Back to the new Yeti, it looks sweet but I want a 26" 7" travel version.
    I'm confident that will be the next announcement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by objectuser View Post
    I'm confident that will be the next announcement.
    You forgot the sarcasm face.

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    I'm more interested where Switch Infinite hits on the DH bike.

    Honestly, my Sb95 is all the trail bike I want (pike.150 on front), but my Kona Park Operator could be easily replaced....

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    Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    Just caught up on the last couple of pages of comments.

    Some thoughts fwtw...

    Someone mentioned "switch reliability":

    1) I bought one of the first SB95Cs (race build). I've had it for over a year and I love it! I have no idea how many miles I've put on it (I've had to do a suspension rebuild, I'm on my 4th rear tire, I've had the reverb I bought new with the bike rebuilt too) - but I've (knock wood) so far not had to touch the switch whatsoever. It still works great.
    Out the door setup how I wanted it was almost exactly $7K after tax. I think the base bike was $5800. I applaud Yeti for this new engineering and I think it looks really cool but I won't be selling my SB95C for a SB95C-infinity (or whatever it will be called). I'm not a good enough rider that I notice the "flaws" in my bike's switch design... but I'm not one of those kids in the videos huckin' huge 'gnar either (I'm 43).
    I would buy my SB95C again in a heartbeat.
    It still impresses me every ride and makes me smile every ride.
    I'm sure the new infinity version would do the same!

    2) I've also bought a KTM500XCW in the past couple of years. It was almost $10k out the door.

    re: the KTM vs high-end-mountain bike comments.

    I live at 8000 feet in the mountains above Golden/Boulder.
    I recently had to sell some toys and I chose to sell the KTM500.. but I kept the Yeti.
    Admittedly I am a life long motorcyclist and have other motorcycles (including a KTM950) but it came down to this:
    There is single track all over the place I'm allowed to ride my Yeti on - but I have to travel to find single track my KTM is legal on. There are very few options for dirtbikes as more and more land is taken away. Even in the frontrange, going to have some fun on a dirtbike is an all day affair as opposed to being able to sneak out for a couple of hours on the MTB.

    If I lived in the San Juans I might feel differently.

    ...sorry for the ramble.
    cheers!
    Ed
    Last edited by Geek; 07-19-2014 at 06:38 AM.

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    Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by bear View Post
    I'm more interested where Switch Infinite hits on the DH bike.

    Honestly, my Sb95 is all the trail bike I want (pike.150 on front), but my Kona Park Operator could be easily replaced....
    Yeti is leaving the DH scene... don't hold your breath.

  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post
    Yeti is leaving the DH scene... don't hold your breath.
    I know they shot down the Official DH team but to my knowledge YETI never said they will stop designing, producing and selling DH bikes. In fact I read an interview earlier in the year where Chris Conroy said he did not rule out a comeback to DH racing in the very near future. I think YETI's heart is in aggressive and gravity oriented riding and doubt they would only concentrate on trail bikes.

  130. #130
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    Price

    Even though this bike is priced much higher than I'm willing to spend, I'm not really bothered by the price. There are so many excellent bikes available in my price range right now, I'm spoiled for choice*. This or better tech is likely to become cheaper and trickle down to less expensive bikes in the years to come.

    Those that are willing to spend more to have the best tech now, well, I say cheers and for stepping up! They provide a valuable service for the rest of us and get to enjoy the latest stuff now.

    I'm also hoping that the David Weigel's of the world look at this and say, "That's interesting and all, but I can do it better and simpler." (Without violating the patent of course! ). I just want to continue to see things push forward.

    * My current bike is way more capable than I am and covers up a lot of my mistakes ... alas not all as my ankle will attest.

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    Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by jftoha View Post
    I know they shot down the Official DH team but to my knowledge YETI never said they will stop designing, producing and selling DH bikes. In fact I read an interview earlier in the year where Chris Conroy said he did not rule out a comeback to DH racing in the very near future. I think YETI's heart is in aggressive and gravity oriented riding and doubt they would only concentrate on trail bikes.
    Right, but without a team, I can't imagine that a new DH bike is any kind of priority. Its gonna be a long time before we see one, I'd expect.

  132. #132
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    True that.

  133. #133
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    I ride an SB95c and it is great, best bike I've ever had. That said, I'm glad to see Yeti improving the design, as part of the reason you go with a company like Yeti is that they are innovative and stay at the forefront of the hobby. The new design looks fantastic.

    So, my comment is actually about the reviews of the bike. I'm in Colorado and our trails are rocky (if you need a reference, check out my video thread in the Video section, I'll wait...) I've never had the suspension lock up and I've never felt a problem with the transition in the switch. No problem there, Yeti was aware of an improvement they could make in the design and went with it.

    However, most of the reviews say that the Switch Infinity is great because it eliminates the problem of the suspension locking up or having issues in the transition. I read a bunch of reviews before I bought the SB95c and not one mentioned either of these problems. So, were the bike magazines and websites aware of the issue and not saying anything or were they simply not aware it existed? I'm guessing the second, which is fine, but stop making it out that this solves some real world problem.

    Again, I didn't read every review and I may be missing something here.

  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by EXW View Post
    I ride an SB95c and it is great, best bike I've ever had. That said, I'm glad to see Yeti improving the design, as part of the reason you go with a company like Yeti is that they are innovative and stay at the forefront of the hobby. The new design looks fantastic.

    So, my comment is actually about the reviews of the bike. I'm in Colorado and our trails are rocky (if you need a reference, check out my video thread in the Video section, I'll wait...) I've never had the suspension lock up and I've never felt a problem with the transition in the switch. No problem there, Yeti was aware of an improvement they could make in the design and went with it.

    However, most of the reviews say that the Switch Infinity is great because it eliminates the problem of the suspension locking up or having issues in the transition. I read a bunch of reviews before I bought the SB95c and not one mentioned either of these problems. So, were the bike magazines and websites aware of the issue and not saying anything or were they simply not aware it existed? I'm guessing the second, which is fine, but stop making it out that this solves some real world problem.

    Again, I didn't read every review and I may be missing something here.
    It can be very difficult to get honest information about the flaws in a bike. I know nothing about potential problems with the Switch mechanism, but I do know a few people that ride and buy a lot of different bikes, and I tend to go to them (in private) for advice.

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by EXW View Post
    ...The new design looks fantastic...
    I hate to call out the lack of emperor's clothes, but really, the old, eccentric switch mechanism was elegant; the new Switch Infinity linear bearing resembles a couple of black iron pipe fittings welded together...

    Hello Jerry? I just don't know sometimes...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kstovesand View Post
    I hate to call out the lack of emperor's clothes, but really, the old, eccentric switch mechanism was elegant; the new Switch Infinity linear bearing resembles a couple of black iron pipe fittings welded together...

    Hello Jerry? I just don't know sometimes...

    73
    Could not agree more. I assume the design of the technology is spot on, but how it was executed leaves a lot to be desired. It is just clunky!!

  137. #137
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    Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    Kinda steampunkish

  138. #138
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    It was somewhat disheartening to see they went down the press fit BB road.
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDKeg View Post
    Jared Graves: "And despite what the internet experts who have never ridden it will tell you, It is hugely durable, lightweight and works better than you can imagine, a game changer."

    -- this is all you need to know
    Do you have one on order?
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by kstovesand View Post
    I hate to call out the lack of emperor's clothes, but really, the old, eccentric switch mechanism was elegant; the new Switch Infinity linear bearing resembles a couple of black iron pipe fittings welded together...
    I might be with you on the relative visual elegance of the old vs. new design when it's applied to a frame, but I think the Switch Infinity just looks cool. I like seeing the movement of the implementation, like watches that expose the mechanisms.

    Also, I don't know if the entire difference is in the Switch tech, but the SB5c frame weighs almost a pound less than the SB66c frame and more than half a pound less than the SB95c frame (which makes me ask, why does the SB95 weigh less?).

    It is also supposed to open up a lot of options for the tuning of the suspension for different applications, which should make for better bikes.

    So I think visual elegance of an application is cool and all, but in the end, we ride the damn things.

  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adim_X View Post
    Yeti is not just pricing this bike high for fun. Costs are controlled by sales volume. Low volumes equal high cost. If Yeti sell 100k of these and the price is still 7k than its a money grab. I doubt they are selling that many bikes.
    Pricing is controlled by a number of things. Production cost vs. operating cost is the cornerstone. Using projected sales volumes to set pricing is a slippery slope. IMO there will not be a lot of these bikes in the pipeline.... Though they did sell some SB95c models so maybe I'm full of ****.
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

  142. #142
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    I feel like so many people are overlooking what has really changed. The Switch mech has lost a 100g, is much more stable and with true linear travel to eliminate inflection point issues on multiple hit impacts. Also they have made the end stroke more progressive so that it has the feeling of much more travel. I love the skeptics and rightfully so with all the market hype in the industry however this new design will yield a much more versatile and wide range of applications across all the new bikes. I would not even worry about durability of the switch, it has automotive grade wipers on bushings with a plastic scraper to keep muck out. Most importantly the lateral stability of the two bushings is going to be an improvement over the eccentric. As for the long chain stays, you need them for climbing and high speed, I am sure this bike has no problem going left to right quickly. Looking forward to real feedback and not conclusions based on numbers or stats.

  143. #143
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    I do not have any experience with a SB yeti but i am wondering if there is a change in the width of the rear stays? I read of some heel contacts by some riders / testers caused by shape and the width of the design.
    Thanks.

  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by jftoha View Post
    Could not agree more. I assume the design of the technology is spot on, but how it was executed leaves a lot to be desired. It is just clunky!!
    I'm glad a few other people are scratching their heads. I'm not a current Yeti owner (but have owned AS-X, 575 and ARC previously), but am a suspension and kinematics dork.

    First off... as a smaller player in an industry overrun with huge marketing and R&D budgets, Yeti's vision to innovate make them unique... You don't see this stuff from other boutique brands like Ibis, Turner, Pivot, Knolly, etc. Yeti seems to really get it, and go after it.

    While the engineering is nothing short of fascinating, I'm curious about the actual reason the Sotto-designed switch link was "evolved" after a few short years and huge success. The switch link, for what it's worth, was one of the best rear suspensions I've ridden. And... Yeti has historically kept suspension designs for long periods of time.

    Moving to a much more complex system (increased wear parts, friction, fasteners, etc) that requires longer chainstays doesn't make much sense compared to the compact and simple Sotto switch mechanism.

    Santa Cruz lawsuit? Sotto licensing/royalties?

    Discuss... and keep in mind, this is just for the sake of conversation.

  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWfreeride View Post
    While the engineering is nothing short of fascinating, I'm curious about the actual reason the Sotto-designed switch link was "evolved" after a few short years and huge success. The switch link, for what it's worth, was one of the best rear suspensions I've ridden. And... Yeti has historically kept suspension designs for long periods of time.

    Moving to a much more complex system (increased wear parts, friction, fasteners, etc) that requires longer chainstays doesn't make much sense compared to the compact and simple Sotto switch mechanism.
    Hasn't Yeti answered the question of evolving Switch from their perspective?

    Does it really require longer chainstays? They're the same as they were before on the SB75. It might, I just haven't seen evidence.

  146. #146
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    Re: Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by NWfreeride View Post
    Moving to a much more complex system (increased wear parts, friction, fasteners, etc) that requires longer chainstays doesn't make much sense compared to the compact and simple Sotto switch mechanism.

    Discuss
    How have you come to the conclusion that Sotto Switch = Simple; Switch Infinity = Complex?

    Isn't a cartridge bearing a fiendishly complicated tribological construction, commonly considered unsuitable for rocking loads?

    Switch Infinity appears to:
    1. Eliminate the two heavy oversize bearings and replace with stanchions and bushes.
    2. Replace the two undersize bearings with bearings properly suited to the loads
    3. Eliminate Switch's requirement for a pristine bump stop rubber on a bump stop bolt, compromise of which apparently causes the "hang up" characteristic.

    On a link with 4mm of motion, I reckon the friction is not sapping significant energy.

    Sent from my GT-N5120 using Tapatalk 2

  147. #147
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    Re: Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by SicBith View Post
    Pricing is controlled by a number of things. Production cost vs. operating cost is the cornerstone. Using projected sales volumes to set pricing is a slippery slope. IMO there will not be a lot of these bikes in the pipeline.... Though they did sell some SB95c models so maybe I'm full of ****.
    Production cost is high on low volume parts. As sales volume increases, parts price decrease. Operating cost is rolled into overhead along with sales, marketing, engineering, and conversion. I have no idea if yeti has a fixed or variable overhead. At the end of the day you have to forecast and communicate estimated annual usage(sales volume) to your supply base. This will determine part cost, then add overhead and you have a internal target launch cost. Add some profit margin then you have a sales price.

    This bikes sales price is high.. still looks cool.

  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    How have you come to the conclusion that Sotto Switch = Simple; Switch Infinity = Complex?

    Isn't a cartridge bearing a fiendishly complicated tribological construction, commonly considered unsuitable for rocking loads?

    Switch Infinity appears to:
    1. Eliminate the two heavy oversize bearings and replace with stanchions and bushes.
    2. Replace the two undersize bearings with bearings properly suited to the loads
    3. Eliminate Switch's requirement for a pristine bump stop rubber on a bump stop bolt, compromise of which apparently causes the "hang up" characteristic.

    On a link with 4mm of motion, I reckon the friction is not sapping significant energy.

    Sent from my GT-N5120 using Tapatalk 2
    The complexity of the switch infinity design is obvious (bushings, seals, mounting points, threaded interfaces). Keeping this thing quiet and creak free will be a miracle, or so it would seem. By contrast, the Sotto-switch design (while slightly suboptimal as you mention) is much simpler.

    As for the friction, I'd be much more concerned about the effect on acceleration (change in velocity) at the stanchion and bushing/wiper than distance traveled. A bearing can accommodate this much better than a bushing. Additionally, I'm really curious about the effect of non-axial loads placed on these stanchions relative to friction at the bushing. For these reasons, moving away from a bearing seems odd.

    I get that they can fine-tune kinematics better, but is that really the reason for the change?

    But, this is all speculative at this point... and I'm eager to ride the infinity this fall at Outerbike. I'm sure it will rip, and I hope it unthrones the SB66C as one of the best bikes I've pedaled.

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWfreeride View Post
    While the engineering is nothing short of fascinating, I'm curious about the actual reason the Sotto-designed switch link was "evolved" after a few short years and huge success. The switch link, for what it's worth, was one of the best rear suspensions I've ridden. And... Yeti has historically kept suspension designs for long periods of time.

    Moving to a much more complex system (increased wear parts, friction, fasteners, etc) that requires longer chainstays doesn't make much sense compared to the compact and simple Sotto switch mechanism.

    Santa Cruz lawsuit? Sotto licensing/royalties?

    Discuss... and keep in mind, this is just for the sake of conversation.
    A couple of things to think about. As you said, Switch was unique at the time, but Yeti only had a 3 year exclusive which has either expired or is getting close to expiring. That differentiation was going away unless they changed something. In addition Switch was not the most reliable system on the market with issues around expensive bearings and limit screws. The new system appears much more simple with essentially two stanchions and some fork seals. It also sticks with Yeti's historical single pivot setup, but allows them to mimic a multi link kinematic.

    Also looking at a full profile of the frame (drive side pics are very rare) it appears that the "box" for the Switch Infinity forces them to make the rear end longer for mud clearance. It actually protrudes farther than the FD mount which is why they are marketing the FD option. There is no downside because they can't make the rear end shorter due to suspension limitations. With bikes like the Nomad and others, the FD was the limiting factor in making the rear end shorter, not the suspension design.

  150. #150
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    I gotta give credit to Yeti. I thought all the rear suspension designs were already invented, other than the fake inventions like DW link.

    This design is definitely creative. And it looks very durable. I don't know of any other design that has that much support against lateral loads (going by appearance).

  151. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    I gotta give credit to Yeti. I thought all the rear suspension designs were already invented, other than the fake inventions like DW link.

    This design is definitely creative. And it looks very durable. I don't know of any other design that has that much support against lateral loads (going by appearance).
    Never thought of DW Link as a "fake invention." Neither did the US patent office. Obviously very similar to Giant Maestro, but that's because it's a copy of DW Link and not the other way around. Overall it is up to the bike designer to execute whatever type of suspension they select, but DW Link has the fewest warts of any system out there.

  152. #152
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    Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    How have you come to the conclusion that Sotto Switch = Simple; Switch Infinity = Complex?

    Isn't a cartridge bearing a fiendishly complicated tribological construction, commonly considered unsuitable for rocking loads?

    Switch Infinity appears to:
    1. Eliminate the two heavy oversize bearings and replace with stanchions and bushes.
    2. Replace the two undersize bearings with bearings properly suited to the loads
    3. Eliminate Switch's requirement for a pristine bump stop rubber on a bump stop bolt, compromise of which apparently causes the "hang up" characteristic.

    On a link with 4mm of motion, I reckon the friction is not sapping significant energy.

    Sent from my GT-N5120 using Tapatalk 2
    Exactly this

    Santa Cruz Tallboy 4


  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadmcmichael View Post
    Never thought of DW Link as a "fake invention." Neither did the US patent office. Obviously very similar to Giant Maestro, but that's because it's a copy of DW Link and not the other way around. Overall it is up to the bike designer to execute whatever type of suspension they select, but DW Link has the fewest warts of any system out there.
    DW link is a 4 bar that is not "novel and unobvious" over previous designs (as patent law requires), and never should have received a patent, but the patent office is generous, and assumes that if the patent is not valid it will be challenged and decided in court.

    As far as Maestro, you are wrong, and that is settled law:

    The latest statement read in part, "DW-Link has withdrawn its claims of patent infringement and regrets bringing the litigation against Giant." Giant will continue to sell bikes equipped with the suspension system since it doesn't infringe on DW-Link patents
    Giant and Weagle end patent lawsuit | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

  154. #154
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    Wow, all that product development to replace a best selling bike just makes me think about patents. A patent conflict makes a lot more sense compared to the benefits described. But hey, I want to see Yeti succeed, so enough said on patents. I think I will cherish my beloved SB95A forever and ever.

    Those are very awesome build specs; I think that is as big a story as the new suspension.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NWfreeride View Post
    The complexity of the switch infinity design is obvious (bushings, seals, mounting points, threaded interfaces). Keeping this thing quiet and creak free will be a miracle, or so it would seem. By contrast, the Sotto-switch design (while slightly suboptimal as you mention) is much simpler.

    As for the friction, I'd be much more concerned about the effect on acceleration (change in velocity) at the stanchion and bushing/wiper than distance traveled. A bearing can accommodate this much better than a bushing. Additionally, I'm really curious about the effect of non-axial loads placed on these stanchions relative to friction at the bushing. For these reasons, moving away from a bearing seems odd.

    I get that they can fine-tune kinematics better, but is that really the reason for the change?

    But, this is all speculative at this point... and I'm eager to ride the infinity this fall at Outerbike. I'm sure it will rip, and I hope it unthrones the SB66C as one of the best bikes I've pedaled.
    Have you ever seen a ball bearing in the wheel suspension on a car?

  156. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWfreeride View Post
    ...I'd be much more concerned about the effect on acceleration (change in velocity) at the stanchion and bushing/wiper than distance traveled....
    Dunno, forks seem to handle it okay, and the bits that are changing directly here are a lot lighter than a fork lower and wheel. Gotta wonder how much the "tighter tolerance" wipers and seals drag though vs what is in the MTB forks. I'm willing to believe it's not noticeable simply because of the significantly different mechanical leverage of the rear suspension moving on these parts - conservatively speaking it's gotta be around 5:1 or better, so the seals could have 4x as much drag and still feel more supple than a fork.

    Quote Originally Posted by NWfreeride View Post
    But, this is all speculative at this point... and I'm eager to ride the infinity this fall at Outerbike.
    <<envy>> - would love to attend that, but it never works out for me to get there from PA. Argh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    DW link is a 4 bar that is not "novel and unobvious" over previous designs (as patent law requires), and never should have received a patent, but the patent office is generous, and assumes that if the patent is not valid it will be challenged and decided in court.

    As far as Maestro, you are wrong, and that is settled law:



    Giant and Weagle end patent lawsuit | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News
    Giant had already paid DW over $600,000 with the first agreement (public record). I'm sure they did this because they are nice guys. Have a lawyer explain to you what "resolved" means. This is generally how most cases are settled and it means that:
    1. DW is under a non-disclosure agreement.
    2. Enough money was put in front of DW for him to drop his suit.

    In a typical Horst Link 4 bar, the lowest rear pivot is near and BELOW the rear axle. In DW, the lowest pivot is ABOVE the rear axle. Fundamentally, the DW design results in having one of the link's pivot alignment cross between the two pivots of the other link during travel. There is only one other design that can say that, Giant Maestro. Giant applied for a patent for Maestro. That same "generous" patent office you described did not award it because the Maestro arrangement infringed on DW link.

    Sorry to derail the thread. The reason I passed on Yeti before was because of the reliability of the Switch Link. This new design looks amazing and should be fundamentally more reliable. The only negative I can see here is the chain stay length.

  158. #158
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    Looks like the new suspension works as designed, judging from mostly rave first impressions reviews. I just can't get over the somewhat fugly looks of the SI, need to see one in person... Yeti fanboy here, but the new Nomad looks very tempting as well...

  159. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    DW link is a 4 bar that is not "novel and unobvious"
    Hate to break it to you but switch and switch-i are also four bar designs, just with a little different execution.

    When all is said and dust settled, the crowd will come to a conclusion that the switch-i rides exactly like the switch. There is no new magic dust added to the formula, just a different packaging.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drybear View Post
    Have you ever seen a ball bearing in the wheel suspension on a car?
    In multi-link suspension designs? Yes. Maybe not bearings but certainly bushings having the same role.


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    Re: Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by NWfreeride View Post
    Additionally, I'm really curious about the effect of non-axial loads placed on these stanchions relative to friction at the bushing. For these reasons, moving away from a bearing seems odd.
    This is a great point, but don't forks take a ton of non - axial load (braking). They solve it with basically two bushings - one between the outside stanchion and the inside of the lower, and one inside the stanchion between the damper and the stanchion. I'd assume the new linkage has the same.

  163. #163
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    Anyone see a leverage curve chart yet? I remember they released a cool one when the Switch platform first came out -- showing the differences between a 575, a DW-link, and a VPP compared to Switch. It'd be cool to see the differences between the old and new switches

  164. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    Hate to break it to you but switch and switch-i are also four bar designs, just with a little different execution.

    When all is said and dust settled, the crowd will come to a conclusion that the switch-i rides exactly like the switch. There is no new magic dust added to the formula, just a different packaging.
    Agreed. When they talk about it being an infinite-link design, the easiest way to understand that is to think about it being like a DW-link type bike. The lower link on the dw-link bikes allows the location of the main pivot to move up and back at first, for a rearward axle path, then down and forward to mitigate chain growth in the longer travel region. That rear pivot moves in a little arc. If the front pivot was located an infinite distance away, that rear pivot would have a vertical path. The DW-link and Switch-i are doing essentially the same thing.

    I don't know if there's any benefit to a vertical path. It might simply make the kinematics equations more straightforward and easier to tune.

    In terms of complexity, I think it only appears more complex than the original Switch because the Switch mechanism was hidden. It might really be less complex even than a dual-link design, if you judge complexity by number of parts, and include all the parts in the cartridge bearings, seals, balls, races, etc. of which a dual link would have at least two more.
    Fall is here. Woo-hoo!

  165. #165
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    Was quite excited when I first saw details of the new design. Then I saw the price. Will stick to the original plan of keeping the 66, and buying a YT Capra, which is a lot more bang for buck IMO.

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    Re: Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    Hate to break it to you but switch and switch-i are also four bar designs, just with a little different execution.
    By the same token, single pivot bikes are four bars with zero length bars.

    Saying "everything is the same except detail" is a pathetic cop out. If you get away without being called out on that, then all discussion is meaningless. We're already on a thread where one contributor has said "Yeti traditionally make single pivots and this is a [modified] single pivot".

    The industry has told us: "small links are better because the tight curvature of their path let's us tune things exactly how we want". Now we have: "an infinite link is better because small links are bad; we can tune things exactly how we want". Santa Cruz told us an "S" shaped axle path was the bee's knees and then with VPP2, the S shape is much less pronounced so it seems something akin to an arc is optimal.

    I think open discussion needs to be left open to consider detail. At the moment we have:

    Internet says "looks complex, won't handle mud"; Yeti say "we've tested the snot out of it"
    Internet says "we drank the Switch Classic koolaid"; Yeti say "here's new recipe Coca-cola"

    Also, don't annoy smilinsteve... you'll regret it.

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  167. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    Saying "everything is the same except detail" is a pathetic cop out. If you get away without being called out on that, then all discussion is meaningless. We're already on a thread where one contributor has said "Yeti traditionally make single pivots and this is a [modified] single pivot".


    You Yeti folks are an interesting lot. Okay, have it your way - VPP, DW-Link, Maestro, KS link, CVA etc. are all fake inventions, only the switch and switch-i are true innovations with fundamentally different kinematics, and with a sprinkle of unicorn farts.

    Happy now?

  168. #168
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    Re: Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity


    You Yeti folks are an interesting lot. Okay, have it your way - VPP, DW-Link, Maestro, KS link, CVA etc. are all fake inventions, only the switch and switch-i are true innovations with fundamentally different kinematics, and with a sprinkle of unicorn farts.

    Happy now?
    Can I get mine with extra sprinkles?

    Sent from my GT-N5120 using Tapatalk 2

  169. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    b
    also, don't annoy smilinsteve... You'll regret it.
    bwahhh hhhahhhhhaaaaaaa hhaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  170. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post


    You Yeti folks are an interesting lot. Okay, have it your way - VPP, DW-Link, Maestro, KS link, CVA etc. are all fake inventions, only the switch and switch-i are true innovations with fundamentally different kinematics, and with a sprinkle of unicorn farts.

    Happy now?
    I guess I'll respond since I made the fake inventions comment.
    I know a bit about patents, and I have posted my irritation over suspension patents in other threads. I know that obvious modifications to "prior art" (which is the legal term for all the existing stuff already out there), is not considered a new invention.
    When you start with a 4 bar design, Any change in lengths of the bars and locations of the pivots are obvious, not novel, and not inventions. Anyone knows you can do that, it doesn't take an inventor.
    Some embodiments of the 4 bar work better than others, but that's just tweaking existing technology, not inventing. And even though you see lots of patents out there you don't see many infringement cases being won, or even filed, because everyone knows they are skating on thin ice.

    But I have ranted on this before, and don't want to derail the thread. It doesn't matter if a rear suspension is patented or unique or whatever, what matters is if it works.
    You can have an unpatented design that works great (like single pivots, faux bars etc), and you can have valid patented designs that don't make a dime because they aren't worth using.
    I made a comment about the creativity of the new Switch Infinity design, just because it is a design I had not imagined. I don't know if the design has that special unicorn fart sprinkled in or not, because I have not tried it and the jury of public opinion is still out, I guess.

    Any design different than a simple single pivot comes with compromises. You add weight, complexity, maintenance and reliability issues, etc. Sometimes it is worth it.

  171. #171
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    I don't understand why people think the Switch Infinity forces longer chain stays. The SB75 using Switch Classic has a chain stay of 17.4" and the SB5C using Switch Infinity has a chain stay of the exact same 17.4". The SB66C has a chain stay of 17.0" and I would think going from 26" wheels to 27.5" would require the chain stays to get a bit longer (need more space for bigger wheel).

    Looks like Yeti decided 17.4" was a good chain stay length for other reasons and was not constrained by the Switch Infinity. The 575 with 27.5" wheels has a longer chain stay of 17.5" and it doesn't use Switch at all.

  172. #172
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    I am not at all worry about the durability of the Switch infinity system. Considering a high load and small movement system, a well sealed / designed slider and bushing will out last a bearing pivot many times over. The contact area in a bushing system is just so much larger that it take a lot longer to wear out comparing to ball bearing and race. I just hope the frame is heavily reinforced at the Si unit fixing points, as it is going to see some massive lateral moments from the chain stay.

  173. #173
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    Hey guys-

    It'd be impossible for me to address every subject brought up in this thread since I posted last week, but let me try to hit the high-points:

    1. Price. Yes, it's an expensive bike, and it's not for everyone. We do our best to keep prices down, but it's an expensive bike to manufacture. It also offers ridiculous levels of performance to riders who can really appreciate it. Again, it's not for everyone, and that's okay.

    2. Frame-only option. Yes, this will be available later this fall.

    3. Lower-priced kits. I honestly don't know the answer to this question, but in our history, we generally have offered a X7/X9-level kit on most models.

    4. Geometry. Our main goal with this bike was making a bike that felt very balanced on the trail - easy to get the front end up, but also planted on fast, rough terrain. We feel like we nailed it, and many of the reviews would support this.

    5. Other options (29ers, more/less travel, etc.). Ask yourself this: given our current offerings, what are some other market niches we can hit? I've said this a trillion times though: you can test the waters by waiting around to see if we hit the exact bullseye you're looking for, or you can jump in the water and have a swim.

    6. AL Model? We have no plans for one at present, but who knows. I do know this: we're a tiny company and we're focusing our energy on models where we know we can offer 'best in class' performance. The carbon protos I've seen and ridden definitely measure up to this standard.

    7. Durability. Someone said it earlier: do you really think we'd stake the reputation and future of our company on technology that was ill-conceived or insufficiently tested? Yeti will be 30 years old in 2015, and we have the most passionate customer base in the bike industry (all of you guys). We'd be nuts to screw with that in any way.

    Here's to more spirited discussion...

    JP
    PIVOT Cycles

    Please Email rather than PM: johnp AT pivotcycles DOT com

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  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by kknd View Post
    Looks like Yeti decided 17.4" was a good chain stay length for other reasons and was not constrained by the Switch Infinity. The 575 with 27.5" wheels has a longer chain stay of 17.5" and it doesn't use Switch at all.
    This. I think so many people are getting hung up on chainstay length on paper that many bikes are being dismissed before even riding them.

    For instance, I've recently had the opportunity to demo, size M:

    WFO9 (29er) - 17.4mm chainstay, 45.8mm wheelbase
    Bronson (27.5)- 17.2mm chainstay, 44.84 wheelbase
    Enduro (29er) - 16.9mm chainstay, 45.62 wheelbase

    Guess what? The WFO9 and Bronson are much more stable at speed but the enduro feels more playful in the twists and slow speed tech.

    Hands down in my opinion the Enduro chain stays are too short. The WFO9 felt the fastest in the high speed technical, and the Bronson was right in the middle, but to be honest I like the roll over of the 29ers better.

    Bring on the 29er version of this bike, 130+mm please.

  175. #175
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    Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by John P. View Post
    Hey guys-

    It'd be impossible for me to address every subject brought up in this thread since I posted last week, but let me try to hit the high-points:

    1. Price. Yes, it's an expensive bike, and it's not for everyone. We do our best to keep prices down, but it's an expensive bike to manufacture. It also offers ridiculous levels of performance to riders who can really appreciate it. Again, it's not for everyone, and that's okay.

    2. Frame-only option. Yes, this will be available later this fall.

    3. Lower-priced kits. I honestly don't know the answer to this question, but in our history, we generally have offered a X7/X9-level kit on most models.

    4. Geometry. Our main goal with this bike was making a bike that felt very balanced on the trail - easy to get the front end up, but also planted on fast, rough terrain. We feel like we nailed it, and many of the reviews would support this.

    5. Other options (29ers, more/less travel, etc.). Ask yourself this: given our current offerings, what are some other market niches we can hit? I've said this a trillion times though: you can test the waters by waiting around to see if we hit the exact bullseye you're looking for, or you can jump in the water and have a swim.

    6. AL Model? We have no plans for one at present, but who knows. I do know this: we're a tiny company and we're focusing our energy on models where we know we can offer 'best in class' performance. The carbon protos I've seen and ridden definitely measure up to this standard.

    7. Durability. Someone said it earlier: do you really think we'd stake the reputation and future of our company on technology that was ill-conceived or insufficiently tested? Yeti will be 30 years old in 2015, and we have the most passionate customer base in the bike industry (all of you guys). We'd be nuts to screw with that in any way.

    Here's to more spirited discussion...

    JP
    So... Which color looks better in person?

    And size wise... If between sizes, err on the larger or smaller size?

    Santa Cruz Tallboy 4


  176. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by LCW View Post
    So... Which color looks better in person?

    And size wise... If between sizes, err on the larger or smaller size?
    More importantly, which color rides better/faster?
    Better than most, not as good as some.

  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfndav View Post
    More importantly, which color rides better/faster?
    Raw Black is lighter so it will go faster =P

  178. #178
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    I think the biggest benefit I'm seeing from the new SB5c platform is torsional stability. I'm a big guy on a L SB95c and not only can you see the rear wheel twist to the right under chain load, I can feel it on climbs and with having a predominant right foot stroke for climbing I really have to put some body english into the bike to keep the bike going where I want it to on technical climbs. The new SB5c has more distance between the various pivot points which leads me to believe it's a stiffer swing arm, as was confirmed by a couple of the Yeti folk at Tribe this past weekend. Didn't get a chance to ride one but will wait for a SB95c frame replacement before I get too interested. I already have all the components I could wish for and am not going down to a 27.5 from a 29. I'd even be fine with a 4" travel 29'r offering as most of my pedaling is XC oriented, although bombing down some trails in the San Juans this weekend flanking and passing SB66c's on downhill sections was just a tad fun ;-)
    They don't design these things for clydes!

  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by some dude View Post
    I think the biggest benefit I'm seeing from the new SB5c platform is torsional stability. I'm a big guy on a L SB95c and not only can you see the rear wheel twist to the right under chain load, I can feel it on climbs and with having a predominant right foot stroke for climbing I really have to put some body english into the bike to keep the bike going where I want it to on technical climbs. The new SB5c has more distance between the various pivot points which leads me to believe it's a stiffer swing arm, as was confirmed by a couple of the Yeti folk at Tribe this past weekend. Didn't get a chance to ride one but will wait for a SB95c frame replacement before I get too interested. I already have all the components I could wish for and am not going down to a 27.5 from a 29. I'd even be fine with a 4" travel 29'r offering as most of my pedaling is XC oriented, although bombing down some trails in the San Juans this weekend flanking and passing SB66c's on downhill sections was just a tad fun ;-)
    What wheel you running in the back? Enve AM with DT 240s and Sapim CX Ray?

  180. #180
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    Enve M60 with Chris King and Hans Dampf front and rear, only real issue I had over 4 days of All Mountain riding is cooking rear brake pads/rotor,.....particularly on Engineer Mtn Trail which was 5 miles of all down hill and FAST down hill!
    They don't design these things for clydes!

  181. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfndav View Post
    More importantly, which color rides better/faster?
    turquoise, obviously. No idea why anyone would want any other color.

  182. #182
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    Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    I like unicorn fart sprinkles as well, but fairy jizz is the best. Does it kum with fairy jizz?

  183. #183
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    In case you missed it. Gonna be an awesome weekend!

    Graves Racing Prototype SB6c This weekend!
    Ride: 2016 Yeti SB5.5c
    Retired: 2014 Yeti SB66AC

  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighSpeedChase View Post
    In case you missed it. Gonna be an awesome weekend!

    Graves Racing Prototype SB6c This weekend!

    No Enve wheels???????????
    They don't design these things for clydes!

  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighSpeedChase View Post
    In case you missed it. Gonna be an awesome weekend!

    Graves Racing Prototype SB6c This weekend!
    My foot is getting a bit closer to my mouth... That thing looks awesome, and I may need to start squirreling away bonus money for my next Yeti.

    Anyone notice the wheel size?! Graves is rippin psuedo-wagon wheels.

  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by some dude View Post
    No Enve wheels???????????
    He has been running those DT Swiss wheels the entire series i believe.

    I'm sure he doesn't want to change up too much.
    Ride: 2016 Yeti SB5.5c
    Retired: 2014 Yeti SB66AC

  187. #187
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    I wonder why the SB5c and SB6c top tube to seat tube design is different.

  188. #188
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    Interesting to hear about tracking issues with 95c under torque. My 95a is solid, although I have had reliability issues with the eccentric. Freakin love it regardless.

    I agree the aesthetics aren't quite there, but function always trumps form.

  189. #189
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    I think the next bike coming will be a XC 29er, carbon, 4" travel with Switch Infinity. I will be quite interested.

    JP, when will this be released ? You can post here, we won't tell anyone...

  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridetheridge View Post
    I think the next bike coming will be a XC 29er, carbon, 4" travel with Switch Infinity. I will be quite interested.

    JP, when will this be released ? You can post here, we won't tell anyone...
    Next one is a 4" ASR 29er..... SI 29 next july
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

  191. #191
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    Re: Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by kknd View Post
    I wonder why the SB5c and SB6c top tube to seat tube design is different.
    Because the front end of that "prototype" is 100% SB66c.

  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    Because the front end of that "prototype" is 100% SB66c.

    Open your eyes and use your brain! How can a Switch Infinity frame can be a SB66c frame?

  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    Because the front end of that "prototype" is 100% SB66c.
    Apart from the 15% SI...

  194. #194
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    Re: Yeti SB5C / Switch Infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Fadl View Post
    Open your eyes and use your brain! How can a Switch Infinity frame can be a SB66c frame?
    In what way am I failing to use my brain that you are demonstrating to me how better to use my brain? I didn't say "front triangle". I said "front end" and I stand by that. If designing a front triangle lay up for a prototype, I would borrow as much as possible from existing established knowledge and vary as little as possible. It appears to me that Jared's prototype carries significant SB66c DNA. Head tube/down tube/seat tube upper and gusset/shock mount. All the bits that are not Switch Infinity vs Switch specific look bang-on SB66c.

    Does that satisfy the pedant in you? Can you perhaps rein yourself in from being an insulting berk and think about the message I was trying to convey rather than distracting yourself with the thought that everybody on the Internet who isn't you is an idiot.

    Just had two strong coffees so my emotional intelligence is necessarily diminished to the point that I'm unable to prevent myself from yanking your chain and I am as guilty of the above statement as anybody.


    Sent from my GT-N5120 using Tapatalk 2

  195. #195
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    Can someone in-the-know please explain the decision on using a PF BB...especially on a $10k bike?

  196. #196
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    ^The PF bottom bracket is a bummer, for sure...

  197. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by SicBith View Post
    Next one is a 4" ASR 29er..... SI 29 next july
    Really? That's interesting!

    Speculation - the SI technology is reserved for carbon bikes. Complementary to that range is the ASR range which comes in aluminum.

    A SI bike built around a 29" wheel would interest me. But what would they call it? the new naming scheme for is very simple.

  198. #198
    LCW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind View Post
    Can someone in-the-know please explain the decision on using a PF BB...especially on a $10k bike?
    the Yeti crew explained it either in one of the online articles (vital, pinkbike, etc) or in the Yeti ask them anything post on Pinkbike... the press fit allowed for more material around the BB without being bulky and interfering into the switch infinity package space, and thus stiffer vs a threaded bb.... I'm paraphrasing but that's about what their claimed justification is

    Santa Cruz Tallboy 4


  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    In what way am I failing to use my brain that you are demonstrating to me how better to use my brain? I didn't say "front triangle". I said "front end" and I stand by that. If designing a front triangle lay up for a prototype, I would borrow as much as possible from existing established knowledge and vary as little as possible. It appears to me that Jared's prototype carries significant SB66c DNA. Head tube/down tube/seat tube upper and gusset/shock mount. All the bits that are not Switch Infinity vs Switch specific look bang-on SB66c.

    Does that satisfy the pedant in you? Can you perhaps rein yourself in from being an insulting berk and think about the message I was trying to convey rather than distracting yourself with the thought that everybody on the Internet who isn't you is an idiot.

    Just had two strong coffees so my emotional intelligence is necessarily diminished to the point that I'm unable to prevent myself from yanking your chain and I am as guilty of the above statement as anybody.


    Sent from my GT-N5120 using Tapatalk 2
    I'm going to have to retract my previous statement.

    Just been checking out some side by side shots of the prototype vs SB66c and there are new curves all through the front end. I'd now say it is inspired by the SB66c layout rather than a direct copy, which means new molds and that means the hints of nearing production look spot on.

  200. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind View Post
    Can someone in-the-know please explain the decision on using a PF BB...especially on a $10k bike?
    From Hoog:
    The press fit allows us some freedom from the design and strength aspect. The larger shell creates a bigger area for the downtube to join. This gives us greater stiffness at an important part of the frame. On all of our kits we run the Praxis BB conversion. The left and right cups actually thread into each other. This removes any creak and they have not loosened up on any of our test/demo bikes. The press fit on carbon frames also removes an aluminum insert that needs to be bonded or co-molded during manufacturing. Carbon and aluminum have drastically different properties that can create hairline surface cracks. Both road frames and mountain frames are plagued by cracking at the bb alloy/carbon interfaces. Sometimes these cracks are just in the paint and sometimes the bonds actually fail over time. Removing this alloy piece allows for a more robust manufacturing process.

    Tons more info here:
    FINISHED: Yeti Cycles - Ask Us Anything - Pinkbike

    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    I'm going to have to retract my previous statement.

    Just been checking out some side by side shots of the prototype vs SB66c and there are new curves all through the front end. I'd now say it is inspired by the SB66c layout rather than a direct copy, which means new molds and that means the hints of nearing production look spot on.
    This is pretty accurate. The geo on the 6C proto that I've seen/ridden is a purpose-buit enduro race bike and is quite a bit different than the 66C. It was significantly longer, lower, and slacker than the 66. It felt DH-bike fast on downhills, but maybe not as capable as an all-around bike (slack HA's make technical climbing tricky). IMO, the SB5c will be a better 'everyday bike' for most people.

    JP
    PIVOT Cycles

    Please Email rather than PM: johnp AT pivotcycles DOT com

    Instagram: @heyjohnp

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