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  1. #1
    jms
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    Ya Gotta Love Kabush

    Another reason why you've just got to love Geoff Kabush.

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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by jms View Post
    Another reason why you've just got to love Geoff Kabush.

    https://www.velonews.com/2018/11/new...el-bike_481072
    Cause he rode a road bike in a MTB race?

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    Drop bar bike with 27.5x2.1 XC tires.

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  4. #4
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    27.5 for the win!!
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  5. #5
    jms
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    Cause he rode a road bike in a MTB race?
    Because he's versatile [show me someone else that competed successfully in the variety of events this year], thinks outside the box, isn't afraid to experiment, and is willing to share his findings. Damn funny too. And yeah, yeah, just for you LMN, he's also Canadian ; )
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    Quote Originally Posted by jms View Post
    Because he's versatile [show me someone else that competed successfully in the variety of events this year], thinks outside the box, isn't afraid to experiment, and is willing to share his findings. Damn funny too. And yeah, yeah, just for you LMN, he's also Canadian ; )
    He is certainly versatile & does well with race tactics.

    I feel like a lot of the equipment choices he makes is purely for attention only and to be "cool". I understand that is part of his job, to get attention as a racer (for his sponsors/keep building his brand etc.) But I doubt drop bars on a rigid bike actually benefited him in this race, but the setup did get him attention.

    Not sure I'd say he thinks out of the box either. He sure didn't seem open minded when 29ers came in, even mocked them a fair bit. His being an engineer left me a little confused that he was so skeptical... Or maybe he realized bike setup has little to do with who actually wins.

    Probably just part of his Canadian sense of humour. (Yes, humour with a u).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    Cause he rode a road bike in a MTB race?
    Fixed it:

    Cause he rode a road bike in an eliteMTB race and won.

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    I wonder if that's the same bike he used for the Kanza? It sounds like the course was well suited for that bike. It does make sense that the more the course looks like a cyclocross course, the better a 'gravel' bike will do. Remember when Tomac used drop bars for everything?
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevbikemad View Post
    But I doubt drop bars on a rigid bike actually benefited him in this race, but the setup did get him attention.
    If you actually read the article, he says it did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattMay View Post
    If you actually read the article, he says it did.
    Yes, due to the higher speed there was an aero advantage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattMay View Post
    If you actually read the article, he says it did.
    I had read it. I'm just not really seeing the benefit. Aero is important, but I just think it probably came down to a well timed tactic/strategy, which Kabush is very good at as well. I realize bike setup is part of that as well. But he could have done it on a 29er HT.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimPacNW View Post
    I wonder if that's the same bike he used for the Kanza?
    It is, but slightly different setup.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgoods View Post
    Fixed it:

    Cause he rode a road bike in an eliteMTB race and won.
    Thanks! Sounds like... fun.

  14. #14
    jms
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevbikemad View Post
    I had read it. I'm just not really seeing the benefit. Aero is important, but I just think it probably came down to a well timed tactic/strategy, which Kabush is very good at as well. I realize bike setup is part of that as well. But he could have done it on a 29er HT.
    You're speculating. There was money on the line. He's a pro, he'd be foolish [and he's not] to risk a sizeable payday on a set up that didn't provide for the best chance of victory. The results speak for themselves. Chapeau to Mr. Kabush.
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    Well, its cool for him, but trends are settled that way.

    Shouldn't drop bars be prohibited from mtb races?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDLover View Post
    Shouldn't drop bars be prohibited from mtb races?
    I don't see why, if the mtb course is well designed a proper mtb will be the best choice. I sometimes race my 29er hardtail in cx races; if the course is a well designed cx course it will favor the cx bikes, but occasionally a course will favor a different bike (but usually by only a small margin). I would certainly bring my cx bike for a smooth fast mtb race, or possibly a hillclimb like I mentioned in that other thread. It's up to the racer to decide which legal/allowable equipment (bike) is the best choice for those conditions. There's an interesting car racing book on this topic; The Unfair Advantage by Mark Donahue, worth the read if you're a vintage car racing fan at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimPacNW View Post
    I don't see why, if the mtb course is well designed a proper mtb will be the best choice. I sometimes race my 29er hardtail in cx races; if the course is a well designed cx course it will favor the cx bikes, but occasionally a course will favor a different bike (but usually by only a small margin). I would certainly bring my cx bike for a smooth fast mtb race, or possibly a hillclimb like I mentioned in that other thread. It's up to the racer to decide which legal/allowable equipment (bike) is the best choice for those conditions. There's an interesting car racing book on this topic; The Unfair Advantage by Mark Donahue, worth the read if you're a vintage car racing fan at all.
    My reasoning was more in terms of safety.

  18. #18
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    safety? how? It's not like he was riding in a group on aerobars

  19. #19
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    NICA prohibits drop bars in high school races, for safety reasons. I’m not sure what the safety issue is though. Lack of leverage on the bars? Hands coming off too easily? Avoid encouraging unsafe passes with risk of hooking bars?


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    The same reasons the UCI use to mandate helmet peaks and baggies in DH racing...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kevbikemad View Post
    I had read it. I'm just not really seeing the benefit. Aero is important, but I just think it probably came down to a well timed tactic/strategy, which Kabush is very good at as well. I realize bike setup is part of that as well. But he could have done it on a 29er HT.
    Aero is very important. Kabush was probably saving 10 to 20 watts while in the drops in the fast moving sections compared to what he would have had to put out sitting upright on a MTB going the same speed. Therefore, he was fresher at the end of the race when he needed to attack and get away. Plus with Yeti as his MTB sponsor, he doesn't have a 29 hardtail he could ride. He would have been stuck with a heavy full suspension bike on a course where the extra weight would be a disadvantage.

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    Drops bars and Iceman are nothing new. The pro race being won on one is. The course is well suited for it for the most part. There are some fast sandy downhills that would be sketchy for someone less skilled than these pros (me). But it does make me want to bring my Cutthroat next year.

  23. #23
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    He certainly got a lot of buzz and discussion out of the decision to ride drop bars in this thread. Race win - done, publicity win - done. Ability to just pack one bike for Iceman and the CX races - done.
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    I raced Iceman this year, and the 3 previous years.

    Yes aero plays a factor as the speeds are high (particularly this year). I spent as much time as I could drafting and not being caught in the middle by myself especially in the more open sections. It did feel there was a slight headwind as well and there was a def benefit drafting.

    We had perfect course conditions, not sure if there was a faster rolling year but i can't really remember either. It was pretty dry and super sandy via reports from earlier in the week, but we got perfect amount of precipitation the night before to tack and pack it. This was very nice as it helped better some of the thick dry sandy spots. There have been years where people couldn't ride through or climb some spots.

    I rode my alu HT this year where last two i've rode the FS (really they are even now).. mainly as i had a goal to get that frame to 8000 miles. Though HT is more ideal than FS due to weight and rigid power transfer, it's still a bit bumpy in spots and A LOT of people were on FS. There were a few spots where I thought "man FS would be nice right now", those were long bumpy stretches that were just annoying as it bounced u around a lot (not from roots), and fast descents that were a bit rough.

    So with that in mind i commend Kabush and anyone else on drop bars. I even saw one guy on a cx (that i remember specifically, i've seen them before as well), i own and ride a cx and f bringing that up there and riding it lol, but i'm a creature of comfort. Maybe i would ride Kabush's rig since it was rolling XC tires, i prob wouldn't mind it.

    The main reason i wouldn't ride cx is that we roll pretty high speeds and there's a ton of loose sand sections that just show up all of a sudden that will have like only 2 solid lines through (or sometimes just one, so don't get caught out!). It only takes you to be just slightly off line a lil bit for things to get a lil crazy and it's just nicer to be holding onto wider mtb bars.

    There were a few times I where I started sliding around. One time in particularly was really wild. It was about a quarter of the way in. I wasn't quite settled in and a lil hot. It was double track and we were rolling 15-20mph and I was off the main line, suddenly i was in a sand pit and I was completely out of control with the bike swinging left to right all crazy like until i could reel it in.

    After that I told myself i needed to get my shit together, pay a ****in attention, and make sure i'm on point cuz i didn't want an incident. It wasn't long after that we ran across a guy laying on ground off to the side of the single track, calmly talking on his phone while 2 race helpers made their way towards him. We found later that apparently he broke his leg pretty good, heal up!

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    The same reasons the UCI use to mandate helmet peaks and baggies in DH racing...
    ^+1

  26. #26
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    Funny, as I am looking at a Specialized Sequoia right now, and may or may not run 650b's on it. My friend has a Diverge with a 700 and 650 wheelset. I love that bike.

    I can easily see doing this depending on the course.

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    He wasnt riding a road bike... He was riding a gravel bike that fits 2.1 tires. The course is smooth as butter. There is very little reason a CX or gravel bike wouldnt work just fine, if not better than an MTB. I could count the amount of rocks and roots on the trail with zero hands. There are a couple sandy spots(about 5-10 yards), but 2.1" tires would handle them just fine.

    The course was smoother than most gravel roads I have ridden. Riding a gravel bike at iceman shouldn't be heralded as some great achievement, especially this year.

  28. #28
    ccm
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    Iceman is not a real mtn bike course

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    It's really more of a group ride.
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    "Iceman is not a real mtn bike course"

    "It's really more of a group ride."

    I completely agree and I don't understand what the attraction to this event is for a XC racer. I ride/race MTB because I like the technicality of it. People keep telling me I should race Iceman but I just don't understand the appeal. I watched a full POV of the race course on the trainer last night. Its a gravel grinder at best.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MI-XC View Post
    "Iceman is not a real mtn bike course"

    "It's really more of a group ride."

    I completely agree and I don't understand what the attraction to this event is for a XC racer. I ride/race MTB because I like the technicality of it. People keep telling me I should race Iceman but I just don't understand the appeal. I watched a full POV of the race course on the trainer last night. Its a gravel grinder at best.
    The problem is... That is almost all of the trails where races are held at. lol.

    I know, Iceman is even more dumbed down though.

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    I'm starting to wonder how he managed to win last year on a MTB.

  33. #33
    jms
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccm View Post
    Iceman is not a real mtn bike course
    Then why do the majority of participants use a mountain bike?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MI-XC View Post
    "Iceman is not a real mtn bike course"

    "It's really more of a group ride."

    I completely agree and I don't understand what the attraction to this event is for a XC racer. I ride/race MTB because I like the technicality of it. People keep telling me I should race Iceman but I just don't understand the appeal. I watched a full POV of the race course on the trainer last night. Its a gravel grinder at best.
    The appeal to us is that we go up as a group on Thursday to get the hell away from work and have fun. Honestly I had an amazing time to the point when I got home, I felt a little bummed. The Traverse area is pretty a pretty sweet place to get away to and we thoroughly enjoy it. (love Hop Lot's beer garden)

    In addition, the point to point roll through the woods has been really amazingly pretty at times, and i actually enjoy rolling through the northern Michigan woods like that with a ton o people.

    The party and atmosphere of it at the end (and even at packet pickup, or random places people are cheering like on climbs) is part of the package, especially starting in an earlier wave to finish early so you can change, start partying and cheer on the rest of the people. Then all your friends are back, chat hang out walk around... then cheer the pros on as they come in. It's a great atmosphere and even better when u run into people u haven't seen in a while.

    The icing on the cake for me was meeting and chatting with: Georgia Gould, Chloe Woodruff, Katerina Nash, and just this year Pendrel.

    If you can't get that aspect of Iceman and have fun there, then don't even come as the rest of us are having a good ass time at our annual year end send off! And you just won't fit in I guess.

    And yes, we bitch every year bout how we don't get anything physically from Iceman compared to other races for the money... but we keep coming back because it ain't about that.
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by zephxiii View Post
    It's really more of a group ride.
    Then why is there a substantial pro payout for the winner?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jms View Post
    Then why is there a substantial pro payout for the winner?
    lol it's a bit of an insider joke to anyone that's ever done it (non pro race). If you are in the top waves of the avg joe race then it's much less so...
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  37. #37
    LMN
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    Quote Originally Posted by MI-XC View Post
    "Iceman is not a real mtn bike course"

    "It's really more of a group ride."

    I completely agree and I don't understand what the attraction to this event is for a XC racer. I ride/race MTB because I like the technicality of it. People keep telling me I should race Iceman but I just don't understand the appeal. I watched a full POV of the race course on the trainer last night. Its a gravel grinder at best.
    My wife says it is a really fun race. The course isn't technical, doesn't have any significant climbs or descents and tactics play a huge roll. But is fast and going fast is a lot of fun.
    Last edited by LMN; 4 Days Ago at 08:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zephxiii View Post
    The appeal to us is that we go up as a group on Thursday to get the hell away from work and have fun. Honestly I had an amazing time to the point when I got home, I felt a little bummed. The Traverse area is pretty a pretty sweet place to get away to and we thoroughly enjoy it. (love Hop Lot's beer garden)

    In addition, the point to point roll through the woods has been really amazingly pretty at times, and i actually enjoy rolling through the northern Michigan woods like that with a ton o people.

    The party and atmosphere of it at the end (and even at packet pickup, or random places people are cheering like on climbs) is part of the package, especially starting in an earlier wave to finish early so you can change, start partying and cheer on the rest of the people. Then all your friends are back, chat hang out walk around... then cheer the pros on as they come in. It's a great atmosphere and even better when u run into people u haven't seen in a while.

    The icing on the cake for me was meeting and chatting with: Georgia Gould, Chloe Woodruff, Katerina Nash, and just this year Pendrel.

    If you can't get that aspect of Iceman and have fun there, then don't even come as the rest of us are having a good ass time at our annual year end send off! And you just won't fit in I guess.

    And yes, we bitch every year bout how we don't get anything physically from Iceman compared to other races for the money... but we keep coming back because it ain't about that.
    If that is the “appeal” than I get it, but it’s just not for me and “I won’t fit in”. Thanks
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    Kabush at Wlilliamsburg Rd. crossing

    Quote Originally Posted by jms View Post
    Another reason why you've just got to love Geoff Kabush.

    https://www.velonews.com/2018/11/new...el-bike_481072
    Ya Gotta Love Kabush-45797270_2333396020007452_8098259311618162688_n.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDLover View Post
    Shouldn't drop bars be prohibited from mtb races?
    I'm not sure, but somewhere deep in my memory, I think drop bars are prohibited on UCI sanctioned mtb races. Or do I got this wrong?
    One more thing for all praising Kabush's "out of box thinking".... Is that same Kabush who was bitching about aero bars on gravel roads and how people should never even think on putting them on? Just asking for a friend.... to get this "out of box thinking" idea
    Primoz

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    One more
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Ya Gotta Love Kabush-45401826_2324190644261323_859918105529286656_n.jpg  


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    Another one
    Second group
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Ya Gotta Love Kabush-45466198_2325509707462750_5439694320833658880_n.jpg  


  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lickety Split View Post
    Another one
    Second group
    Thanks for the great photos. Ice Man looks like a really fun party masquerading as a mountain bike race - which is what riding ANY bike in the woods should be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by primoz View Post
    Is that same Kabush who was bitching about aero bars on gravel roads and how people should never even think on putting them on? Just asking for a friend.... to get this "out of box thinking" idea
    No kidding, nail on the head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kevbikemad View Post
    No kidding, nail on the head.
    Not sure I’m seeing the hypocrisy here. Aero bars in a mass start road race (gravel or not) are dangerous to other riders. Drop bars at Iceman? I guess he could crash on a descent or something... and take someone else out... but I’m not seeing the parallels.

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    I had to Google the reference. And...I'm with Geoff on this:

    https://www.velonews.com/2018/05/com...l-bikes_467839

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    Quote Originally Posted by kevbikemad View Post
    No kidding, nail on the head.
    Aero bars in a group race vs drop bars in a group race is an entirely different thing. Like so different it's obvious if you don't think so, you've never ridden aero bars.

    Your reaction time for braking while in aero bars is horrible. Not only that, but you cannot brake or steer effectively until you get both hands into a position where you can brake. I've actually been at quite a few events that allowed aero bars in a group, and at EVERY event, there were large crashes caused by the people in aerobars. The event kabush did earlier this year where aerobars were allowed was no different, there were crashes caused by 'elites' while in aerobars, that wouldn't have happened if aerobars were not allowed.

    On the other hand, with practice (which Kabush has tons of from lots of cx racing), a cx bike can be ridden quite aggressively, and I bet on a course like iceman his level of control on a mtb and cx bike would be almost identical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by afalts View Post
    The event kabush did earlier this year where aerobars were allowed was no different, there were crashes caused by 'elites' while in aerobars, that wouldn't have happened if aerobars were not allowed.
    Interesting because I was at that race and with the lead pack through Aid 2 and I didn't notice anything of the sort. Are you perhaps exaggerating a bit or maybe "misremembering"?

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanB View Post
    Not sure I’m seeing the hypocrisy here. Aero bars in a mass start road race (gravel or not) are dangerous to other riders. Drop bars at Iceman? I guess he could crash on a descent or something... and take someone else out... but I’m not seeing the parallels.
    My "nail on the head" comment was about him bitching, not so much about the exact details of aero bars etc. It was about his whining. Or at least comes off that way. Complaining/whining or mocking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MI-XC View Post
    "Iceman is not a real mtn bike course"

    "It's really more of a group ride."

    I completely agree and I don't understand what the attraction to this event is for a XC racer. I ride/race MTB because I like the technicality of it. People keep telling me I should race Iceman but I just don't understand the appeal. I watched a full POnV of the race course on the trainer last night. Its a gravel grinder at best.

    Keep in mind that this event dates back to 1992, and the history, attendance and heritage make this one of top events in the USA. The year I finally did it there were close to 3000 participants. Call it what you want, but fun is what it is.

  51. #51
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt Disney's Frozen Head View Post
    Interesting because I was at that race and with the lead pack through Aid 2 and I didn't notice anything of the sort. Are you perhaps exaggerating a bit or maybe "misremembering"?
    Damn I guess I was misremembering, I was sure I had read about a couple late stage crashes from people in aerobars, but I can't find anything or remember where I read them so

    Either way, I've seen enough crashes that I would never enter a group event that allowed aerobars.

  52. #52
    Armature speller
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    Just because you've got aero bars on your bike, doesn't mean you're going to always be using them.

    I love mine on gravel. In the corners or anywhere even mildly sketchy, you can still use the drops or hoods as per normal.

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