Not impressed w/ (visual)difficulty of proXC race courses...- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1

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    Not impressed w/ (visual)difficulty of proXC race courses...

    so i was flipping through some magazines, looking at the race pictures from sea otter, angel fire ect and maybe its just me, but all these courses look like they could be won with a cycloX bike. perhaps all the camera men are just in the spectator areas that are grass, asphalt, and packed dirt.....? where all the haggard rock gardens, step-ups, log crossings, drop-offs?
    i live in Northern NJ where i learned to mtb and have heard from xc racers from all over the coast that this area is one of the most technically challenging your gonna find on the eastern seaboard. so i guess my idea of "technical" differs from most peoples.
    granted ive never been out west and seen the majority of US pro race courses, but im really not seeing the difficulty here. i feel like you could throw a strong roadie on a good HT and they would see a podium finish in most of these places.

    ive been racing since xc since i was 14 (im 21 now) and have raced all throughout the mid-atlantic states and ive never seen a course as boring and technically unchallenging as the ones i see and read about in mags and on the internet.

    does anyone have some good pictures of pro courses that could educate me a bit. believe me, im no kabush. ive been stuck at the sport level for quite some time (terrible lungs/cardio) so dont think im undermining anyone's talent.

  2. #2
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    Strong roadies do see the podium at most races.

    "i feel like you could throw a strong roadie on a good HT and they would see a podium finish in most of these places."

    This is true of just about all xc races in the world.

    I've raced Angel Fire and it is not the most technical course for xc but it is a whole lot of climbing. You could be the best technical rider in the world and struggle on courses in the mountains because of pure exhaustion. Fun race.

    I don't own a road bike but those guys are strong climbers.

  3. #3
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    Visual difficulty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    ...angel fire etc... and maybe its just me, but all these courses look like they could be won with a cycloX bike.
    C'mon out to New Mexico then with your cyclocross bike and see how well you do at a race there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    perhaps all the camera men are just in the spectator areas that are grass, asphalt, and packed dirt.....?
    Ding! You get the prize. The WC ourse at AF last year had all the rocks you could throw a stick at - and lung-busting technical climbing, and a sketchy descent to the start/finish area that netted at least one helicopter medi-vac ride out for a semi-pro last time I was there.

    Please understand that the gnarly singletrack you and your bro's ride at a leisurely pace and slap each other on the back for cleaning sections of after 4 tries is a whole other planet than a Rocky Mountains (or most other places too) regional level, or WC (last year) XC race. Can't speak for Sea Otter - but since AF is practically my home turf, I know a good deal about it. A good XC course should have some technical features, some climbing, and some descending. Crazy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    where all the haggard rock gardens, step-ups, log crossings, drop-offs?
    Far, far from the easy-to-spectate-and-shoot areas of the course - duh! It's the classic mountainbike race spectator conundrum - the good spectating areas are usually far in on remote / hard to get-to areas of the course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    I live in Northern NJ where I learned to mtb and have heard from xc racers from all over the coast that this area is one of the most technically challenging your gonna find on the eastern seaboard. .
    Yay! That is cool. Must be great to be able to ride your bike out your door up/down the road to such fine riding on all those fun and technical trails. I remember the fun stuff at Ringwood - lot's of rocks on those fun, short, roller-type hills. Hard to get much of a big ride in - but the riding was nice and only a 45-60 minute drive from my loft in Brooklyn at the time. Hell, even goofy little Mountain Creek (I think thats the ski area that we used to go ride and make fun of the lift-rider types...) was a lot of fun. I heard Pisgah is OK too though - be fun to have an eastern seaboard "who's got the best trails" vote one day. Somehow I get the feeling Northern NJ might not make the top 3 - but then, it's been a long time since I lived in the region, so I'm likely full of crap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    So i guess my idea of "technical" differs from most peoples.
    OK - your "technical" is better than ours, I am sure.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    Granted, I've never been out west to see the majority of US pro race courses
    Ah! Then what the heck are you getting at? Just another magazine-flipping arm-chair quarterback making presumptions then - the old "XC / NORBA races SUCK dude, those skinny roadie pro lame asses are weak and can only ride wussy courses..." diatribe...? Go watch the Mount Snow Pro race at the NORBA National this year - then let us know how lame you think guys like Kabush and JHK and Craig and Green are... make sure you get there early so you can find a good techy part of the course. I recommend VT as it's easy to get to from northern NJ, much more so than our lame venues in the west . Plus, you won't need a shuttle-sherpa to carry your oxygen when you get up here to altitude!


    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    I'm really not seeing the difficulty here; I feel like one could throw a strong roadie on a good HT and they would see a podium finish in most of these places.
    A strong roadie impies a strong cyclist. Period. If they know how to mountainbike - then likely they'd kick some ass, if they raced XC. Not sure if you're making a criticism, or just an observation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    I've been racing since xc since i was 14 (im 21 now) and have raced all throughout the mid-atlantic states and I've never seen a course as boring and technically unchallenging as the ones i see and read about in mags and on the internet.
    Must be true! The old: "I saw it on the internet / in a mag..." *sigh* Save up some money for your summer break - and fly on out to Moab, or to Colorado, or to NorCal, or even lame old NM. I'd be happy to give you course info for any number of races out here! Then you could (no way!) judge for yourself. Try a sport level race, say the Snowmass National and see how itgoes. Likely you'd do well with your superior technical riding skills and probably even impress Kabush!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    If anyone has some good pictures of a technical XC course, I'd really appreciate seeing them. Believe me, I'm no Kabush. I've been stuck at the sport level for quite some time (terrible lungs/cardio) so dont think I'm undermining anyone's talent.
    If I find some pix for you - maybe I'll post them. We believe you too - no worries there. What's wrong with your lungs and cardiovascular system - some health issue or still 'training'? FWIW, sport level is a real accomplishment - good work. Any race reports posted here...?

    Here's a random thread I selected of typical Northern NM riding, shot and ridden by a friend, AndyN: LINK

    Here's a pic from the Angel Fire course 0f 2005 - everyone; pro/expert/sport/ss does the same course:
    Last edited by glenzx; 04-25-2006 at 08:00 PM.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by glenzx
    C'mon out to New Mexico then with your cyclocross bike and see how well you do at a race there.
    Hey now, just because he disrespected Angel Fire is no reason to break out the lead pipe and get all Medieval.

  5. #5

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    well thanks for the sarcasm and lack of understanding my post.
    it sure helped!

    first off i never said I would race a cross bike. i said IT LOOKS LIKEthey could race a cross bike from what the pictures offered..
    secondly, did i ever ridicule or undermine Kabush, Craig or any pro in my post? No - again, good job READING
    if what i was seeing in pictures was simply a product of camera people being in the non technical areas then thats all you had to say. you could have saved us all the book report.
    as far as putting a roadie on a xc bike.... that was my observation/consensus.
    why do you keep referring to these people and venues as "lame"? did i ever use the term? again, no.
    Last edited by Jersey; 04-25-2006 at 10:31 PM.

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    I recently moved to Philly from Texas and did my first MASS race last weekend. I've done races (mtb and xterra) in TX, OK, LA, WI, GA, UT, and now PA. I've ridden in a many many more places.

    East coast courses are one kind of technical. There are many different types of "technical". I haven't found a state yet without tough courses. The one thing I haven't been able to find anywhere on the Mid-Atlantic East Coast are long (10-20 mi) uninterupted one-way tight twisty single track loops. Everything is multi-use, wide, two way, and with only bits and pieces of twisty singletrack. Any advice on riding spots?

    BTW I raced at the NORBA national course at Tapatio in Texas last year, and that course was a blast. Lots of Limestone ridges and superfast flow sections through beautiful Texas Hill Country. One of the Pros (Kabush, Craig, etc .. don't remember) was qouted in the paper as saying it was the most technical NORBA course he had yet done ... and that was in Texas .. so there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    well thanks for the sarcasm and lack of understanding my post.
    it sure helped!

    first off i never said I would race a cross bike. i said IT LOOKS LIKEthey could race a cross bike from what the pictures offered..
    secondly, did i ever ridicule or undermine Kabush, Craig or any pro in my post? No - again, good job READING
    if what i was seeing in pictures was simply a product of camera people being in the non technical areas then thats all you had to say. you could have saved us all the book report.
    as far as putting a roadie on a xc bike.... that was my observation/consensus.
    why do you keep referring to these people and venues as "lame"? did i ever use the term? again, no.
    and finally. lighten up and relax a little bit, youre taking this whole internet thing a little too seriously
    old lady not giving you any lately?
    He read it the way many of us did. Asking about where the technical riding is and why don't they show it in the pictures is completely different than bagging on it like you did in your original post. Maybe you should re-read your own post and take a step back. Then you won't have avid competetive expert racers like Glenzx pointing out your lack of respectful tone.

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    yikes!
    i certainly apologize if what you read sounded like "bagging". i made it abundantly clear that what the pictures have to offer didnt seem technical. and if in fact, it was merely a matter of camera men being in the flat, spectator sections then say so.
    i offered background on my experiences so you would see where im coming from. it would have been one thing for me to physically be there and then make comments, but all i did was ask about the technical difficulty of the courses being as from my point of view (the reader), i never see good coverage of any technical sections and wondered if there really are any. ive never been to these places so what i see in pictures is what i assume is there....
    the goal of my post was to determine whether or not these courses i read about have anything else to offer other than what is printed on pulp.
    even explaining that im a racer myself, and just to be in this forum to begin with, why would you think i was ragging on pro athletes, and cyclists for that matter?! i have the utmost respect for these people and id kill to have lungs and technique like them.
    if you go flip through any one of the bike magazines that are sitting in your house right now you will see what i see. 99% of these pictures show thin, dirt singletrack cut through grass fields, and wiiiide flat spectator areas.
    just understand where im coming from here....

    my intention wasnt to offend ANYONE, i even said "educate" me, not talk down to me like im eleven.
    probably my first mistake was mentioning AF. i was reading about dunlap (i believe) being there in a ooold issue of mba, bike... i dunno, anyway the 2 small thumbnail pics they showed didnt show anything technical. so thinking about that it was what i wrote in my original post.
    it is pictures like this that i was reffering to.....
    by looking at this pic of sea otter its appears to be super fast, packed, lung-busting terrain so i mentioned that (judging from this pic) a cross bike would be more acceptable.
    i see dozens of pics of sea otter like this and 2 things come to mind:
    1)where are the rocks?
    2)a roadie w/ great legs would kick ass in this course!
    Last edited by Jersey; 04-25-2006 at 10:11 PM.

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    I've never been to a big national race, so take my comments for what they're worth.

    I've always considered national/international racing and the courses to be a completely different animal than normal, everyday kinds of trails and local/regional racing. I don't think they've (NORBA, UCI, etc) ever planned to create the most technically challenging courses they possibly can. I would imagine that they keep the challenges somewhat in check due to the large numbers of racers and the potential for some serious pile-ups in the technical areas, also, from what I understand some of the top end race bikes damn near border on fragile...and there'd be no way the bike could stand up to a really technical course.

    Considering the number of laps that the pro classes normally do, and the speed/intensity they ride at, I don't think they need a super challenging course to make for an exciting race.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    yikes!
    i certainly apologize if what you read sounded like "bagging". i made it abundantly clear that what the pictures have to offer didnt seem technical. and if in fact, it was merely a matter of camera men being in the flat, spectator sections then say so.
    i offered background on my experiences so you would see where im coming from. it would have been one thing for me to physically be there and then make comments, but all i did was ask about the technical difficulty of the courses being as from my point of view (the reader), i never see good coverage of any technical sections and wondered if there really are any. ive never been to these places so what i see in pictures is what i assume is there....
    the goal of my post was to determine whether or not these courses i read about have anything else to offer other than what is printed on pulp.
    even explaining that im a racer myself, and just to be in this forum to begin with, why would you think i was ragging on pro athletes, and cyclists for that matter?! i have the utmost respect for these people and id kill to have lungs and technique like them.
    if you go flip through any one of the bike magazines that are sitting in your house right now you will see what i see. 99% of these pictures show thin, dirt singletrack cut through grass fields, and wiiiide flat spectator areas.
    just understand where im coming from here....

    my intention wasnt to offend ANYONE, i even said "educate" me, not talk down to me like im eleven.
    probably my first mistake was mentioning AF. i was reading about dunlap (i believe) being there in a ooold issue of mba, bike... i dunno, anyway the 2 small thumbnail pics they showed didnt show anything technical. so thinking about that it was what i wrote in my original post.
    it is pictures like this that i was reffering to.....
    by looking at this pic of sea otter its appears to be super fast, packed, lung-busting terrain so i mentioned that (judging from this pic) a cross bike would be more acceptable.
    i see dozens of pics of sea otter like this and 2 things come to mind:
    1)where are the rocks?
    2)a roadie w/ great legs would kick ass in this course!

    I don't think a cross bike would have worked too well on the sections of very steep, beach sand downhill, and any pure road rider would have loved the 2 foot deep mud pits sprinkled throughout the course.

    Not that sea otter is a particularly technical course, but the pictures don't do it justice. Sure there are no huge rock gardens, but anyone riding the course for the first time would find it quite challenging. The 2 people who endoed right in front of me this year would also probably say it's a pretty tough course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sirkrameroy
    I don't think a cross bike would have worked too well on the sections of very steep, beach sand downhill, and any pure road rider would have loved the 2 foot deep mud pits sprinkled throughout the course.

    Not that sea otter is a particularly technical course, but the pictures don't do it justice. Sure there are no huge rock gardens, but anyone riding the course for the first time would find it quite challenging. The 2 people who endoed right in front of me this year would also probably say it's a pretty tough course.
    ive been reading some things about riders making really bad tire choices. were any racers using mud tires? i saw a couple pics of riders with mud coming up to there spokes!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanL
    Considering the number of laps that the pro classes normally do, and the speed/intensity they ride at, I don't think they need a super challenging course to make for an exciting race.
    *Ding!* We have a winner!

    Many of the better XC courses really offer a challenge when you're barrelling down the trail at 30 - not 15 mph, and a lot of obstacles you that are attemptable on a weekend ride are folly during a race. You'll either have pile-ups or people walking all over the place, because simply said: getting to the finish line first is the only concern.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    so i was flipping through some magazines, looking at the race pictures from sea otter, angel fire ect and maybe its just me, but all these courses look like they could be won with a cycloX bike. perhaps all the camera men are just in the spectator areas that are grass, asphalt, and packed dirt.....? where all the haggard rock gardens, step-ups, log crossings, drop-offs?
    i live in Northern NJ where i learned to mtb and have heard from xc racers from all over the coast that this area is one of the most technically challenging your gonna find on the eastern seaboard. so i guess my idea of "technical" differs from most peoples.
    granted ive never been out west and seen the majority of US pro race courses, but im really not seeing the difficulty here. i feel like you could throw a strong roadie on a good HT and they would see a podium finish in most of these places.

    ive been racing since xc since i was 14 (im 21 now) and have raced all throughout the mid-atlantic states and ive never seen a course as boring and technically unchallenging as the ones i see and read about in mags and on the internet.

    does anyone have some good pictures of pro courses that could educate me a bit. believe me, im no kabush. ive been stuck at the sport level for quite some time (terrible lungs/cardio) so dont think im undermining anyone's talent.
    NORBA National XC course at Snowshoe, WVa


    with pros...

    (btw all classes raced this course not just the pros)

    angle fire will kill you with the climbing, and sea otter has always been described as a roadie course. one of the things that makes it difficult is the speed at which these guy/girls do those courses. i don't care how boring and untechincal they look, at the speed the top pros go nothing is easy.

    also, a lot of those courses have long loops and the cameras are in places that are easy to get to and will provide good photos. not necessarily the places that are most technically difficult.

    rt
    Last edited by *rt*; 04-26-2006 at 07:18 AM.
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  14. #14
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    A jumble of thoughts:

    For an xc course.....I guess it comes down to what you wanna judge of the racers skills for that venue....speed or handling ability or climbing, etc(sometimes some or all).....

    And its about riding smart, for instance - a XC racer isnt going to barrel thru a super tech rock garden without considering if he/she will be able to finish the race and grab a win so the super hard stuff is pulled out of the course for that reason

    XC courses are designed for xc...A race course also cant run into a gnarly section in a bigger venue or resort venue since some of those gnarly sections are part of a full on gnarly loop and cant be incorporated into an XC race loop...at least from ski area rides ive done

    Note: just my 2 cents as i also used to wonder about all the tame looking race courses here and over seas from vids and pics....and compare it to my everyday rides as well which were slow short power climbs, tight turns, and bar width technical stuff (which gives another valid point that NORBA or UCI isnt gonna put a race in somewhere where the trail gets minimal use - being an area that can keep singletrack single ya know...a big event course is on something that is used and has some width to it cause of excessive use)....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    so i was flipping through some magazines, looking at the race pictures from sea otter, angel fire ect and maybe its just me, but all these courses look like they could be won with a cycloX bike. perhaps all the camera men are just in the spectator areas that are grass, asphalt, and packed dirt.....? where all the haggard rock gardens, step-ups, log crossings, drop-offs?
    You probably didn't realize it when you wrote this post, but this is a common comment about XC courses. Many dedicated XC racers disagree (often vehemently, as Glen adequately demonstrated) and will respond in the fashion you've seen here. Your post is unknowningly repetitive (but that's ok, it's a forum for discussion after all) and somewhat ill-advised based largely on your admitted ignorance of typical courses.

    I won't add more to the already adequate Jersey-bashing, except to opine further that there's a monster difference between the pace most people ride -- and the skill required to ride at that pace -- and the pace ridden by Expert racers and above. How technically difficult a course is depends largely on the speed a racer attempts to navigate it.

    So don't take the comments to your post too seriously. Some of us are very fragile-egoed racers who can't handle people telling us we suck at technical courses (and I'm including myself in that description, I get pretty pissed when people say racing is too easy technically).

    You can check out a pretty recent discusson on this same topic here:
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=165213

    On a related topic, seems to me that maybe this forum should have a sticky on at least two topics that come up a lot:
    (1) XC race courses are too easy
    (2) Sandbaggers suck

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loudpawlz
    Hey now, just because he disrespected Angel Fire is no reason to break out the lead pipe and get all Medieval.
    LOL! It was meant to be a little less than a lead-pipe thrashing, honest. I did try and self-deprecate some, to ease up on the fella...

    Iktome is right (below) regarding this topic AND the old sandbagging topic being XC Racing and Training Forum "stickies". I try, I really, really try to not rant as I did - but once ina while, it just happens.

    Still smiling about the "lead pipe" and "medieval" comment - too funny!

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    I used to think the same way Jersey does. It is hard to get a real appreciation of a race-course from the land-scapey pictures typical in the MTB magazines. I think the only real way to appreciate them is to ride the course and then compare your lap-time to the Pro's lap-times.

    One thing that I think helps when you can't get out to ride a course is to try to find a helmet cam of the race. I really like watching the pedalmasher race videos when I'm bored at work. They make me wanna race.

    <a href=http://www.pedalmasher.com>www.pedalmasher.com</a>

  18. #18
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    Yawn

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    well thanks for the sarcasm and lack of understanding my post.
    it sure helped!
    My pleasure - apparently the sarcasm did not have the intended effect. I'll try harder here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    first off i never said I would race a cross bike. i said IT LOOKS LIKE they could race a cross bike from what the pictures offered..
    It was a metaphore - I bet you don't even like 'Cross anyhow - as you have to jump off the bike and run too! Sometimes on flat, grassy fields...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    secondly, did i ever ridicule or undermine Kabush, Craig or any pro in my post? No - again, good job READING
    Yes you did, by implying that Pro Race Courses are able to be ridden by non-mountain bikers on a 'Cross bike. I read your message loud and clear. Quote: "...but all these courses look like they could be won with a cycloX bike". THAT is a clear sign of disrespect / lack of respect IMHO, as these dudes are incredibly dedicated, talented, genetically gifted cyclists and excellent mountain bikers with superb technical skills.

    And thanks for the compliment - I like to READ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    if what i was seeing in pictures was simply a product of camera people being in the non technical areas then thats all you had to say. you could have saved us all the book report.
    Seems obvious though, no? Plus, I like book reports now that I don't have to do them anymore.. Hell, I admit it - I liked doing them even when I had to! So, I take your comment as a compliment. Thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    as far as putting a roadie on a xc bike.... that was my observation/consensus. why do you keep referring to these people and venues as "lame"? did i ever use the term? again, no.
    I thought it was a "cycloX" bike... doh! A roadie on a XC bike would be lost - those weird shifter and brake levers might throw 'em off....

    Again, your implications are that the venues and the riders are lame. I apologize if I misinterpreted your use of language. I will work on my powers of inference.

    Lastly, try responding to some of the responses / comments I made - not just getting all tweaked by someone disagreeing with you! It's an open forum for discussion, and each is entitled to their opinon(s), of which I have a few too. I may be completely wrong, but by huffing and puffing you don't succeed in showing that.
    Last edited by glenzx; 04-26-2006 at 09:22 AM.
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    yow!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Ross
    He read it the way many of us did. Asking about where the technical riding is and why don't they show it in the pictures is completely different than bagging on it like you did in your original post. Maybe you should re-read your own post and take a step back. Then you won't have avid competetive expert racers like Glenzx pointing out your lack of respectful tone.
    Thanks Chuck - but ya know, as an expert racer weenie you too ought to just ride your 'Cross bike on all our non-technical western USA courses / trails and don't even think you'd have the skillz, yo, to ride out east.

    Really though - thanks for being a far wiser and better voice of reason, as usual!
    "It's better to regret something you HAVE done, than something you haven't..." -

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey

    my intention wasnt to offend ANYONE, i even said "educate" me, not talk down to me like im eleven.
    Punctuation and grammar help.

    RELAX dude! You're even more tweaked than me!

    "It's better to regret something you HAVE done, than something you haven't..." -

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    Yet again, well put

    Quote Originally Posted by *rt*
    NORBA National XC course at Snowshoe, WVa


    i don't care how boring and untechincal they look, at the speed the top pros go nothing is easy.


    rt
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  22. #22
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    Yup. I ride a variety of local XC trails. Some are very technical, testing my bike handling skills and balance at slow speeds. Others seem very non technical. Even a beginner could ride them. What sets them apart is when you try to ride them fast. I ride with some expert level riders, they lose me in the first few seconds on these sections. I'm braking to tackle it, they hit the big ring and sprint. The fast your go, the less time you have to pick a line, and the more precise your line has to be before you are caught out.

    BM
    "I've come to believe that common sense is not that common" - Matt Timmerman

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    but all these courses look like they could be won with a cycloX bike.
    Some are - the most notorious is the short track at sea otter. Last year it was won by a dude on a cycloX bike.

    One of my less technical (still technical) races last year was podiumed by John Tomac on a Cyclocross bike. That's frigging John Tomac. If you're only 21 you might not remember him but he has been riding MTB since they were less adapted to technical riding than a modern Cyclocross bike.

    It has more to do with user skill than equipment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    where all the haggard rock gardens, step-ups, log crossings, drop-offs?
    A lot of the trails in my area have been in existence for 300+ years. Many were wildlife trails that turned into Indian trails that turned into mining trails that turned into settler trails that turned into hiking trails that turned into MTB trails. Those kind of features get taken out by people who want ease of use over technical challenge.

    There is also the legal liability of dangerous objects added into a course (log rides, etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    feel like you could throw a strong roadie on a good HT and they would see a podium finish in most of these places.
    Most upper-echelon MTB riders that podium are also very strong roadies. Most pure roadies don't have the technical skills to maintain the lead on the technical section. Most pure MTB'ers don't have the stamina to podium at a higher level.

    Maybe if you turned youself into a strong roadie, you wouldn't still be suffering in sport after seven years.


    P.S. - Easy Glen - remember not to post when you're hungry...
    Think Green Chili Cheeseburger.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by *rt*
    NORBA National XC course at Snowshoe, WVa
    rt
    C'mon RT - Let's see the real trail hazards out there!

    <img src="https://www.wmconnolley.org.uk/bees/DSCN6624-bee-close_1200x1200.JPG" width="800" height="800">

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by glenzx
    Roots! Your favorite. I think Craig is riding over one that actually has your name on it...

    i'll have you know i cleaned that section - the only expert female to do so!


    ....and then i promptly dropped to the back of the pack.

    rt
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by forkboy
    C'mon RT - Let's see the real trail hazards out there!

    <img src="https://www.wmconnolley.org.uk/bees/DSCN6624-bee-close_1200x1200.JPG" width="800" height="800">
    AHHHHHHHHHGG! not the bee!!

    LOL!

    rt
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    i liken this conversation to those i have with my girlfriend regarding dance and how it isnt a sport!

    now that ive been electronically raped by the forum, lol perhaps you can help answer some questions...
    on courses like sea otter where are the pro riders making up the most time over the "lesser" classes? certainly theyre faster all over the place, but on courses like this - are they making better time on the climbs (due to their better CV, legs) or are they making better time on the fast singletrack (later braking, better lines..)?

    considering Glen seems to be the predominent figure around here and ive clearly erked him, why doest he help answer and hopefully ill redeem myself with a non-offesnsive, non-misconstrued question that can provoke some good conversation.

    im likin' the term "tweaked" tho! it must be a western thing =)

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    on courses like sea otter where are the pro riders making up the most time over the "lesser" classes?
    Everywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    certainly theyre faster all over the place,
    See - you already answered your own question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    ive clearly erked him, why doest he help answer and hopefully ill redeem myself with a non-offesnsive, non-misconstrued question that can provoke some good conversation.
    Glen's one of the nicest guys I've met. Just don't tell him he rides like a girl, that his homemade notubes doesn't work, or that his trails ain't sh!t and you will get along fine.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    on courses like sea otter where are the pro riders making up the most time over the "lesser" classes? certainly theyre faster all over the place, but on courses like this - are they making better time on the climbs (due to their better CV, legs) or are they making better time on the fast singletrack (later braking, better lines..)?
    i asked a question. and clearly you neglected to read it as well.
    my question: where is the biggest discrepancy in time vs. expert or sport classes?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    i asked a question. and clearly you neglected to read it as well.
    my question: where is the biggest discrepancy in time vs. expert or sport classes?
    The biggest discrepancy in time is at the finish line.

    Your question makes no sense. Try rewording it using words and concepts that make sense if put together and followed by a question mark.

    Clearly you deserved the verbal raping for being a jackass

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    since you guys are all too busy kissing glen's ass and feeding him grapes i suppose ill just wait for a decent answer to my question which made perfect sense.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    since you guys are all too busy kissing glen's ass and feeding him grapes i suppose ill just wait for a decent answer to my question which made perfect sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by forkboy
    Try rewording it using words and concepts that make sense if put together and followed by a question mark.
    I'm laughing so hard I think I may pee my pants!

    And I'm sorry - what, exactly, is the question? Do tell.

    FWIW, if it's about getting grapes - I like the seedless red ones!
    "It's better to regret something you HAVE done, than something you haven't..." -

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    Quote Originally Posted by glenzx
    I'm laughing so hard I think I may pee my pants!
    atleast i helped make you laugh

  34. #34
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    Question:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    ...on courses like sea otter where are the pro riders making up the most time over the "lesser" classes?
    Answer: (as forkboy noted)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    certainly theyre [sic] faster all over the place...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    ...but on courses like this - are they making better time on the climbs (due to their better CV, legs) or are they making better time on the fast singletrack (later braking, better lines..)?
    Both. You'll find advanced classes are riding everything - climbs, tech sections, flats and descents, faster than lesser classes. It's a combination of fitness, ability, saddle time, and genetic gift at the highest levels. That my friend, is a direct answer, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    Considering Glen seems to be [a] prominent master of the universe grand-puba almighty uber-biker god-like figure, AND general writing, life, social, and insight genius around here, and I've clearly irked him, why doesn't he help answer [the question] and hopefully I'll redeem myself with a non-offesnsive, non-misconstrued question that can provoke some good conversation.
    A well worded, thoughtful question will get an in-kind response, if so posed. Note various suggested corrections in the above passage. Still hard to read, but a little better. Does your keyboard not have a "shift" key or any punctuation keys...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    im likin' the term "tweaked" tho! it must be a western thing =)
    Tweaked is likely just an old-phart (like me) sorta term more than a regional type of thing.
    "It's better to regret something you HAVE done, than something you haven't..." -

  35. #35
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    To answer your question about Sea Otter, it is not a technical course (with exception of a couple of descents down sand dunes). I would venture to say that if a pro or expert had a choice to ride an HT on that course they did it. But that does not mean that they would be smoking the field on a C-X bike (unless you had the handling skills of Johnny T). I would also say that Sea Otter does not necessarily represent the epitome of an X-C race course. For those of us out West, particularly SoCal, the Fall Line descent at Snow Summit resembles the stuff you see at Mt. Snow, Snowshoe, et al. One of our local races last year ran the XC course on a good part of the DH course that was at the venue, with the result of a few riders wearing a figure-8 brace. That section was removed for this year.

    The reality of most of the XC racing in the West is that the races are won on the climbs. The proportion of the race that you spend pointing downhill makes it very difficult to make up time you lose on the climb.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by forkboy
    Just don't tell him he rides like a girl, that his homemade notubes doesn't work, or that his trails ain't sh!t and you will get along fine.
    LMAO. Too true. I'm sure there are a bunch of other topics that punch my buttons too, but i can't think of 'em now. The old XC race thing is near the top of the list. Right up there with the girl thing - as we'd not want to insult the fine ladies here by lumping in / near them! It's an insult to 'em. FWIW, I think I'll put YesTubes back in and move to Iowa and ride with our buddy Jeff and shoot some fun dirt road videos!



    (note: no offense to Iowans - as 1/2 my family hails from eastern Iowa, so I get to poke fun all I like!)
    "It's better to regret something you HAVE done, than something you haven't..." -

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by glenzx
    Right up there with the girl thing - as we'd not want to insult the fine ladies here by lumping in / near them! It's an insult to 'em.
    No doubt.

    Having ridden with girls, and ridden with you - you sir, definitely do not ride a girl.

    They are WAY more fun to follow.

    I'd be more than happy to feed them grapes as well.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by forkboy
    No doubt.

    Having ridden with girls, and ridden with you - you sir, definitely do not ride a girl.

    They are WAY more fun to follow.

    I'd be more than happy to feed them grapes as well.
    yum. grapes.

    btw, glen does so ride like a girl.

    see?

    glen...


    girl...



    rt
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by *rt*
    yum. grapes.

    rt
    You know I'd feed you grapes anytime *RT*

    I just have to figure out how to circumvent your SO

    Edit

    And get to Georgia.
    Details... Details...

    /edit

  40. #40
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    These questions are crazy. “Why are pros faster than lesser classes?” What?!? They put time into other classes on every part of the race track, technical or not. They’re ahead of other classes from the starting gun. They are pro this is their job; most of us are not therefore we are slower in every way.
    Example: Glen (I’m really not kissing his ass, I don’t even know him.) At 24HOP did 16 solo laps, I think. My 4 person SS team did 15!!! There you go, he works a lot harder than my team and I, so he is faster, simple as that.

  41. #41
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    Ouch

    In the Off Road to Athens Video I love the scene in Ft william of all the riders eating it on that 15ft section of rock on the sharp right hander. Even the ones who tried to walk it ended up taking a dive. I think you needed to put the bike on your lap and slide down!

    There was some pretty good bike handling documented in that film... along with alot of smooth stuff. No, there weren't any rock gardens like I ride on my fun rides, but I would be terrified to descend that stuff in Equador at the speeds they were going! I'd lowside, go tumbling down the hill till the next swithback, get run over by a bike, and then end up like the guy in the stretcher!

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.M.
    These questions are crazy. “Why are pros faster than lesser classes?” What?!? They put time into other classes on every part of the race track, technical or not. They’re ahead of other classes from the starting gun. They are pro this is their job; most of us are not therefore we are slower in every way.
    Example: Glen (I’m really not kissing his ass, I don’t even know him.) At 24HOP did 16 solo laps, I think. My 4 person SS team did 15!!! There you go, he works a lot harder than my team and I, so he is faster, simple as that.
    Naaa..... we're tied! I "only" did 15!

    Nice work, BTW.
    "It's better to regret something you HAVE done, than something you haven't..." -

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by forkboy
    No doubt.

    you sir, definitely do not ride a girl.
    LMFAO!!!!!!!! Um, no comment...
    "It's better to regret something you HAVE done, than something you haven't..." -

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by *rt*
    yum. grapes.

    btw, glen does so ride like a girl.

    rt
    Actually, I think you picked the better line!!!

    (we're not worthy...)

    "It's better to regret something you HAVE done, than something you haven't..." -

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    Glenzx=Grand Puba

    I think I see a new custom title coming soon.

    The pro/expert classes are just faster. Period. I've not been fortunate enough to see a pro class race, but I've seen plenty of experts...and just standing at the starting line they're a hell of alot faster than me. So I can imagine the Pros are just insane kinds of fast, no matter the terrain.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by forkboy
    You know I'd feed you grapes anytime *RT*

    I just have to figure out how to circumvent your SO

    Edit

    And get to Georgia.
    Details... Details...

    /edit
    LOL!

    i think he'd probably have something to say about that.

    it's all in the details.

    rt
    "where are you not going so fast?" (question asked to cyclist on a trainer)

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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by glenzx
    Actually, I think you picked the better line!!!

    (we're not worthy...)

    luck. it was all luck. i swear.

    that and about 6 tries.

    rt
    "where are you not going so fast?" (question asked to cyclist on a trainer)

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    jersey,
    i might be qualified to answer you. your 1st topic is legit, some people just think they are being called wimpy when their perception of reality is questioned. all the above answers are correct, except for the context they put them in. some of the courses are hard, some easy, but none of them are insane crazy like you might see in freeride stuff or dh. if the courses were real crazy people would flat to much or get killed going as fast as they go. the question between expert and sport times would probably be on the climbs and for sure much faster starts. as for the down hills i think there are some very fast sport descenders, which sometimes makes or breaks'em. as you move up through the classes the pace and everything else increases as you would suspect, but the mental game starts to play a much bigger part. beyond the expert class, it's the same thing, wicked fast starts and everyone, for the most part, is a good dh'er. i can't fathom the pro class stuff, but some of my friends who were great semi-pros quit after getting stomped for so long in the pro class....super fast, and a lot of time dedication. hope this helps, sorry about the others, they use this board often to stroke their ego.. i.e. your good, no, no your good, no i said your good, oh stop it! no your good. blah blah vomit .
    be well,
    ryon

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beldrueger
    I recently moved to Philly from Texas and did my first MASS race last weekend. I've done races (mtb and xterra) in TX, OK, LA, WI, GA, UT, and now PA. I've ridden in a many many more places.

    East coast courses are one kind of technical. There are many different types of "technical". I haven't found a state yet without tough courses. The one thing I haven't been able to find anywhere on the Mid-Atlantic East Coast are long (10-20 mi) uninterupted one-way tight twisty single track loops. Everything is multi-use, wide, two way, and with only bits and pieces of twisty singletrack. Any advice on riding spots?

    BTW I raced at the NORBA national course at Tapatio in Texas last year, and that course was a blast. Lots of Limestone ridges and superfast flow sections through beautiful Texas Hill Country. One of the Pros (Kabush, Craig, etc .. don't remember) was qouted in the paper as saying it was the most technical NORBA course he had yet done ... and that was in Texas .. so there.
    Come on down to the Shenendoah Vally. Most of our stuff is still multi-use and two-way, but twisty narrow and long we've got. As a bonus a lot of our trails have so little traffic that you won't notice the multi and two-way thing. You could also look for riding in WV, but I can only really speak for the Vally. Just don't come to ride with me, I'm a Hill Slug.
    Dang it, now I'm running a coolness deficit for sure.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    i liken this conversation to those i have with my girlfriend regarding dance and how it isnt a sport!

    now that ive been electronically raped by the forum, lol perhaps you can help answer some questions...
    on courses like sea otter where are the pro riders making up the most time over the "lesser" classes? certainly theyre faster all over the place, but on courses like this - are they making better time on the climbs (due to their better CV, legs) or are they making better time on the fast singletrack (later braking, better lines..)?

    considering Glen seems to be the predominent figure around here and ive clearly erked him, why doest he help answer and hopefully ill redeem myself with a non-offesnsive, non-misconstrued question that can provoke some good conversation.

    im likin' the term "tweaked" tho! it must be a western thing =)

    Sorry you feel like you have been in the prison shower.
    Oddly enough I have had the same questions as in your original post.
    Velocity and technical ability don't always correlate though a great rider should be able to do both.
    I also feel Glen misread the tone in your original post as did some of the others.
    And no the snowshoe WV root section didn't look that technical to me. Perhaps travelling at 30+mph on the hardtail it probably would.
    Mind you this is not to hash on the hardcore xc racers..I merely have the same observations as poor Jersey. There are a lot of different types of riding I respect and enjoy; if I was having my wet dream they would all be mixed into one ride which is not what most big race xc courses appear to be.

    And now for glen...you're from the west man - ever hear of a little humility? Being neighborly? Might be what Jersey was displaying in his post. Kind of ironic given that he's from the east coast. This forum usually has a positive tone to it.

    So that's this old cowboy's thoughts.

    Good day y'all
    "...it feels like.....times have changed."
    "Times maybe. Not me."


    South Mountain Bulimic

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey

    im likin' the term "tweaked" tho! it must be a western thing =)

    Tweaked refers to being hopped up on meth. A tweaker is someone who uses meth.
    It's similar to the crackheads in your part of the world except tweakers are awake for weeks at a time. The paranoia and associated violence and crime are probably similar though.

    Sadly we seem to give watered down meth to kids and housewives (ritalin and diet pills). School kids like to crush up ritalin and snort it. Aldous Huxley would be a proud mofo (he wrote Brave New World for those of you not in the know).
    "...it feels like.....times have changed."
    "Times maybe. Not me."


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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by akitadogg
    Aldous Huxley would be a proud mofo
    That's probably one of the best OT comments I've seen in a long time.

    Scary thing is between him and Orwell they weren't far off, really, but that's something for F-88.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by akitadogg
    Tweaked refers to being hopped up on meth. A tweaker is someone who uses meth....
    And all this time I thought Tweak was a character on South Park. I can't believe that show would make any sort of subliminal (or not so subliminal) reference to drug use. Not possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by akitadogg
    Aldous Huxley would be a proud mofo (he wrote Brave New World for those of you not in the know).
    This is an interesting comment, but I suppose it fits with the lecturing tone (which I am about to borrow). Brave New World is not some cult classic that you have to explain to the kids "not in the know." It is an actual classic that everyone should have read and should be familiar with. Knowing who Aldous Huxley is only means that you made the minimal effort to pay attention in high school english for a day or two. (Sorry if that came off a bit harsh; I just get overworked by stupid things sometimes. And I've only had one cup of coffee so far today, so I'm cranky).

    But that's a discussion for a different day. Maybe we can give it a sticky too, right up there with "We Love Glen" and "I wish rt didn't have an SO."

  54. #54
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    Just depends on the course.

    I've ridden some pretty boring courses that are pretty flat and have little to no technical challenge, but I've ridden some courses that are pretty tough.

    Last year the winter park race series added a section of trail that scared the crap out of me. I don't know if this video does it justice, but I'm a pretty good technical rider, and I was crossing it pretty much the whole downhill, in fact my heart rate was higher going down the mountain than the 1800ft climb to get to it. It was pretty terrifying hitting the technical sections when you could barely hold on to your bars from the constant jarring of the rock gardens. They had teeter-totters, bridges, you name it....it was on the course.

    http://www.epicsingletrack.com/QuickTime/BillRocks.htm

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by akitadogg
    I also feel Glen misread the tone in your original post as did some of the others.
    Maybe, but given the presumptious tone and semi-righteousness (N. Jersey's trails being all billy-bad-ass technical and all) topped off with terrible grammar and puncuation just made it qualify for the atypical glenzx one-thread-a-year bash!

    I just call it like I think I see it. Of course I am prone to mistakes and misinterpretation. What I need is my editor/big brother rapswithtom to call this one. If / when he reads & responds, I'll take his P.O.V. on the matter as final. Ha! JK Tom...?

    Quote Originally Posted by akitadogg
    And now for glen...you're from the west man - ever hear of a little humility? Being neighborly? Might be what Jersey was displaying in his post. Kind of ironic given that he's from the east coast.
    No worries akita - I have an explanation. I grew up in Boston and lived in NYC for 14 years. Humility? Fahk that! I'm a type-A east coast wanker all the way. JK - I am actually a rather pronounced self-deprecator. Neighborly? Screw that too! Really though, I think the responses to my response illustrate that I wasn't too far off in understanding the vibe of the original post - no matter how much adjusting of that P.O.V. came post-fact.

    FWIW, some of the nicest neighbors and strangers-on-the-street type interfaces I've had were back east. Out west here, folks seem far quicker to put their guard up and give you a nasty look. Something about the relatively small range of diversity, perhaps. Or the radioactive caches! Or, it's the big-fish-small-town deal, where yahoos roll in and feel they need to chest-thump in 'the big city' or somethin' - trying to over-compensate as they say, combined with a bit too much pop-media gangster imagery. I might be wildly off-base, but the urban mania was enough to keep folks focused on what really mattered back east. Like internet forums! LOL. Seriously though, there was enough static just in regular day-to-day making a go of it, that all the tertiary noise was just that - and rarley amounted to much of a distraction or problem.
    "It's better to regret something you HAVE done, than something you haven't..." -

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by glenzx
    Maybe, but given the presumptious tone and semi-righteousness (N. Jersey's trails being all billy-bad-ass technical and all) topped off with terrible grammar and puncuation just made it qualify for the atypical glenzx one-thread-a-year bash!

    I just call it like I think I see it. Of course I am prone to mistakes and misinterpretation. What I need is my editor/big brother rapswithtom to call this one. If / when he reads & responds, I'll take his P.O.V. on the matter as final. Ha! JK Tom...?



    No worries akita - I have an explanation. I grew up in Boston and lived in NYC for 14 years. Humility? Fahk that! I'm a type-A east coast wanker all the way. JK - I am actually a rather pronounced self-deprecator. Neighborly? Screw that too! Really though, I think the responses to my response illustrate that I wasn't too far off in understanding the vibe of the original post - no matter how much adjusting of that P.O.V. came post-fact.

    FWIW, some of the nicest neighbors and strangers-on-the-street type interfaces I've had were back east. Out west here, folks seem far quicker to put their guard up and give you a nasty look. Something about the relatively small range of diversity, perhaps. Or the radioactive caches! Or, it's the big-fish-small-town deal, where yahoos roll in and feel they need to chest-thump in 'the big city' or somethin' - trying to over-compensate as they say, combined with a bit too much pop-media gangster imagery. I might be wildly off-base, but the urban mania was enough to keep folks focused on what really mattered back east. Like internet forums! LOL. Seriously though, there was enough static just in regular day-to-day making a go of it, that all the tertiary noise was just that - and rarley amounted to much of a distraction or problem.

    Thanks for responding Glen. I wasn't meaning to be too harsh on you - your response to Jersey simply seemed a bit out of character.
    I didn't grow up back east but I did live for 2 years in NY not that long ago. It was an eye opening experience and I honestly hope never to live back east again. I met some great people; but that 'keeping the eye on what matters' was the biggest reason I didn't care for it back there.
    Where I come from you help people out period...otherwise you can't survive. The west is dissipating fast; though that is the one common theme of the west - rapid change. I recently moved to Phoenix and I find that this certainly is not the west (it seems cities tend to make folks selfish and self absorbed) though I have met many amazing and fantastic folks out here.
    Oftentimes you have to slow down and you get a more harmonious outcome. Paying attention to the environment around you is something I value highly and that tends to be something that gets lost in the big city. In my opinion, New York has one of the most provincial cultures I have ever encountered.

    As for your responses to the original poster - I agree you were absolutely correct in illustrating that xc racing has technical courses. I simply didn't think Jersey was using a condescending tone. Now you from being more in tune with the vibe back there may have made you more accurate. I tend to believe the best about folks.

    Which may explain why I loaned my jumper cables to a tweakhead the other day - and the damned things now seem to be on permanent loan.

    So in short..I dig reading your posts and writeups and I have a helluva lot of respect for you and what you accomplish. Keep riding hard!
    "...it feels like.....times have changed."
    "Times maybe. Not me."


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  57. #57

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    this fighting is really stupid....

    this thread was started, because someone felt that this sport, at professional level, appears to be far too easy. he never bashed anything or anyone. he only stated his perspective that he obtained from pictures of a pro races. you cannot be an a$$ to someone who hasn't been to pro race courses and can only see them from magazines. At the end up the original post he asked for someone to help EDUCATE him . so, enough with the bashing of someone for stating their opinion and perspective.

    i'm also SICK of people bashing others for using bad grammer or puncuation when they too are making mistakes. also, if you are going to bash someone for things like spelling and grammer then you should prolly learn how to read and understand what you read instead of jumping to conclusion and making yourself come across as an a$$.

    Please quit tearing down someones opinion and if you feel that they don't know what they are talking about. then maybe you should take some pitcures for magazines yourself so that people who are unable to ride/visit these PRO courses will have a better perspective. if someone asks for you to educate them...then do that....don't be the jerk who thinks they are always right....

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iktome
    And all this time I thought Tweak was a character on South Park. I can't believe that show would make any sort of subliminal (or not so subliminal) reference to drug use. Not possible.



    This is an interesting comment, but I suppose it fits with the lecturing tone (which I am about to borrow). Brave New World is not some cult classic that you have to explain to the kids "not in the know." It is an actual classic that everyone should have read and should be familiar with. Knowing who Aldous Huxley is only means that you made the minimal effort to pay attention in high school english for a day or two. (Sorry if that came off a bit harsh; I just get overworked by stupid things sometimes. And I've only had one cup of coffee so far today, so I'm cranky).

    But that's a discussion for a different day. Maybe we can give it a sticky too, right up there with "We Love Glen" and "I wish rt didn't have an SO."

    Oddly I have never seen South Park.
    Never read Huxley in HS Literature either. I'd bet the majority of folks out there have no idea of soma, nor of savage. I was reintroduced to the book in a Medical ethics course actually.
    I do love Glen. I spose rt is hot. However there are many,many, many hot and available women out there. You just have to encounter them and have some sort of mutual chemistry. I've never asked a woman out, doubt I ever will actually.
    "...it feels like.....times have changed."
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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibanezrg520kid
    I'm also SICK of people bashing others for using bad grammar or punctuation when they <strike>too</strike> are also making mistakes. <strike>Also,</strike> If you are going to bash someone for things like spelling and grammar then you should probably learn how to read and understand what you read instead of jumping to conclusions and <strike>making yourself</strike> coming across as an a$$.
    Now why would you possibly be sick of people correcting grammar and spelling?

    When the only mode of communication is the written word, communicating with somebody who continuously uses poor punctuation and grammar is the equivalent of talking to Gomer Pyle.

  60. #60
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    I've raced Sea Otter 5 times and yes it is not at all technical, but it is long ( 40 miles) and lots of climbing , over 5k. So the fittest riders will do the best there. I go back to the east coast a few times a year to visit family and the riding there is much more technical then it is here in Northern California. Technical skills are real important but not as important as fitness. Thats why all the pro racers train on the road bike. FYI, there are some races out here where the technical skills will play a big part in your results, like downieville. The guy who won the pro xc race is in my town and a friend of mine. I think he said he was 5 th up the mountain on the climb. He is SO FAST going downhill that he past everyone and won.
    In terms of GLEN. We have never ridden together, but I did room with him and I can tell you , he does not eat like a girl
    Ride to eat, Eat to ride.

  61. #61
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    Go race sport @ Mt Snow...it's less than 2 months away now. You'd be impressed to say the least and it's a fun course to race!! That will open your eyes to what a technical race course is like, expecially racing vs. casually riding it.

    I know alot of mags show the rather flat or open singletrack photos, however on occasion you'll see some good s-track pics from the harder or more technical sections.

    I didn't read the original post as a slam at XC racing. This thread got outta control! Hoofah.

  62. #62
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    For futher reading fun on misconceived posts, check out the SANDBAGGERS thread.

    My teammates and I are hitting the Big Bear, WVa 24 Hour race in June. Is that the same racecourse as the Snowshoe NORBA XC? Better bring the tweaking supplies to that one! Yikes.

  63. #63
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    I suggest you race Mount snow nationals(VT), any Plattekill(NY) XC race and/or Hunter Mtn/masters of the mountain(NY)

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibanezrg520kid
    Please quit tearing down someones opinion {when} they don't know what they are talking about.
    I think I understand this - but alas, so as to be sure, you mean:

    "Please stop criticising an uneducated opinion"

    Is that correct?

    If it is an accurate interpretation of one of the most butchered and unreadable sentences, cool. It took many readings, but I got it. In response, I'd say that one should not be trying to state an opinion without knowing what they are talking about. Right? I give Jersey, the OP, more credit than that - far more!

    Quote Originally Posted by ibanezrg520kid
    ...don't be the jerk who thinks they are always right....
    I'm going to assume you are refering to me. Cool. I know I am right sometimes, and admit to making mistakes more often than not. I posted a response with as much information, from personal experience, as I could. Did I wield an unusually heavy lead pipe this time? Seems like I must have, given that despite all the glen-loving going around, it's in the minority. I think I mentioned that already, however, and have tried on multiple attempts (like forkboy and *rt* and others) to lighten it up and keep it cool.

    Frankly, the conversation has drifted so far from the "meat" of the OP, it's taken on it's own life at this point - and dammit all, I can't seem to stop responding, despite my better judgement... with that, I am off to India Palace!

    MMmmmmmmmm Chicken Tiki Masala......

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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by douglas
    I suggest you race Mount snow nationals(VT), any Plattekill(NY) XC race and/or Hunter Mtn/masters of the mountain(NY)
    I second that statement! I think what peeps call xc racing is far to broad a term. They should have xc, xxc and xxxc. One guy I know pwns on xxxc and a is a mear mid packer on xc. Douglas prolly knows him. Hint- he loves beer.
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  66. #66
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    This is damn funny.

    Glance Strongrad is in fact the nicest guy in the world, until you push one of his buttons, at which point he turns into ...hmmm...damn, there're no good villains anymore....I dunno, maybe a cross between Mr. T. and your high school debate champion.

    What is so hillarious is that GlenZX's various buttons are quietly waiting, like landmines, while discussion goes on all around them. Glance is carrying on being Mr. Nicest-Guy-In-The-World, when, suddenly, the wrong word is used, and watch out! Glance transforms into Mr. Hyde and the offending party is promptly and publicly eviscerated, much to everybody's delight.

    This discussion is a lot like the straightforward and only mildly contentious thread of about a year ago when, for no apparent reason, some poor sod suggested that Mr. Strongrad rides like a girl. Even Mr. Hyde would have blushed at the rage that ensued! With one simple assertion, the thread changed from a marginally entertaining debate into a highly entertaining insult competition.

    History repeats itself. Only the victim and the offending phrase have changed.

    I believe we should start tracking Glance's triggers.
    1. Glance "rides like a girl"
    2. XC is easy.

    Any others?
    Last edited by rapwithtom; 04-27-2006 at 01:46 PM.
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  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    ...these courses look like they could be won with a cycloX bike.
    And why not?

    A comparison between CX bikes and MTBs:
    1. The CX' 700c wheel size is not detrimental; witness 29ers. Surely you can build a 700c wheel as strong as a 26" wheel. Advantage: Tie
    2. Who knows what frame geometry is best? Look at the wide variety of geometries within the traditional MTB community, and notice the lack of a dominant geometry. This includes suspension: major pro XC races are won on both HT and FS. I've never heard that a road or CX geometry would be poor on dirt. Advantage: Tie
    3. Same for CX vs. MTB handlebar style. Consider Jones Bars et al; are the slower? I don't think so. Advantage: Tie
    4. This leaves us with the last variable: tires. OK, if you ride like me, you would flat every CX tire on every rock. But, if you were lighter and had significantly more talent, then you wouldn't need a fat tire, and, in fact, the fatness would simply slow you down. On the other hand, the increased traction provided by wider tires could allow faster cornering in poor conditions. Advantage: Depends on conditions.

    I was out on a semi-technical ride this winter (White Ranch for those who are familiar with it) when a couple of young pro roadies whizzed by me on CX bikes. They were quite far from the nearest pavement or smooth dirt, and they were fast, carefree, and grinning. Hmmm.

    Also, our local Short Track series often features Jonathan Baker (pro roadie) on a CX bike racing against Travis Brown and other MTB pros on the latest greatest MTB creations. It's always exciting to see who prevails.

    Perhaps our current MTB's are just marketing department inventions that really have little to do with going fast in the mountains.
    Friends don't let friends give their money to NORBA.
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  68. #68
    i worship Mr T
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    Quote Originally Posted by akitadogg
    And no the snowshoe WV root section didn't look that technical to me. Perhaps travelling at 30+mph on the hardtail it probably would.
    no offense akita, but have you ever ridden or raced that rock garden at Snowshoe? it's tough at any speed and a lot of pros opted to just run it. trust me, nobody, pro or not, did that rock garden at 30 mph.

    when looking at pictures of trails it's important to remember that photos don't always provide the most accurate view. think of how many photos get posted on mtbr with "STIL" written somewhere in the post. pictures flatten depth so you don't get a feel for the pitch of the hill, nor can a picture give you a good sense of how slick and muddy those rocks and roots are. it certainly doesn't give you a sense of the rest of the course which alternates between that sort of almost unrideable mud/root rock gardens, shin-deep peanut butter consistency mud, and unending fireroad climbs.

    i can certainly understand how you and jersey would wonder if there is anything to some XC courses when the pictures show buff singletrack. your question is legitimate, and so were the answers people gave.

    just my $0.02

    rt
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  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by *rt*
    no offense akita, but have you ever ridden or raced that rock garden at Snowshoe? it's tough at any speed and a lot of pros opted to just run it. trust me, nobody, pro or not, did that rock garden at 30 mph.

    when looking at pictures of trails it's important to remember that photos don't always provide the most accurate view. think of how many photos get posted on mtbr with "STIL" written somewhere in the post. pictures flatten depth so you don't get a feel for the pitch of the hill, nor can a picture give you a good sense of how slick and muddy those rocks and roots are. it certainly doesn't give you a sense of the rest of the course which alternates between that sort of almost unrideable mud/root rock gardens, shin-deep peanut butter consistency mud, and unending fireroad climbs.

    i can certainly understand how you and jersey would wonder if there is anything to some XC courses when the pictures show buff singletrack. your question is legitimate, and so were the answers people gave.

    just my $0.02

    rt
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapwithtom
    This is damn funny.

    1. Glance "rides like a girl"
    2. XC is easy.

    Any others?
    WaaahhhHHHooooooooo!!!! Maestro has finally spoken. *whew* Now I can go home.

    Tom, we needed your concise analytical abilities here - thanks for slogging through some/all the silliness and boiling it down to some simple and clear parts.

    Just to be 100% clear - the rides like a girl thing is simply that I take offense to sexist mumbo-jumbo like it, as I have had the great fortune to have ridden with women that absolutely kick ass, from pro XC racers (2-for-1 here, cool!) to endurance freaks and 24 hour solo champs. I could care less what people think of me and my riding abilities. Just don't toss that crap around! over-and-out on that one

    To bring the conversation full circle, in a way, what's the dealie-o on you + Angel Fire, and the other 'events' that weekend?

    Funny, I was "Jeckyl" on my Jeckyl & Hyde 24 hour Duo Team in 2004.....
    Last edited by glenzx; 04-27-2006 at 03:55 PM.
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  71. #71

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    Jersey, don't let this thread get to you. I understood the tone and gist of your original post...and I'm really at a loss at the animosity and venom it's generated. Living in the mid-Atlantic like yourself, I often found myself questioning the race courses I saw in the magazines. I've seen sidewalks more technical than some of the singletrack in those pictures.

    But hey - at least everyone got to jump into the mass lovefest that ensued afterwards. I felt like I was watching "Brokeback Mountain 2: When West Coast Expert Racers Fall In Love." I've never seen such ego stroking in my life.

    Ride your Jersey trails. Catch some air. Clean some rock gardens. And get a road bike....it will help you make the transition to expert level.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by akitadogg
    No. You're right and you're still hot.
    uh...thanks.

    rt
    "where are you not going so fast?" (question asked to cyclist on a trainer)

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  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashNY
    For futher reading fun on misconceived posts, check out the SANDBAGGERS thread.

    My teammates and I are hitting the Big Bear, WVa 24 Hour race in June. Is that the same racecourse as the Snowshoe NORBA XC? Better bring the tweaking supplies to that one! Yikes.
    i don't think it's the same course but bring the tweaking supplies anyway. most of the WVa riding looks a lot like the Snowshoe course in terms of technical stuff.

    oh, and bring your favorite mud tires. we actually raced the snowshoe course on 1.75's to reduce the amount of gloppy nasty mud that glommed onto your bike as you <i>pushed</i> it through the unrideable stuff.

    rt
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  74. #74
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    Sadly I have to agree with SuperClyde here. The response was way too harsh considering the fact that XC race pictures do look rather bland. An explanation would have been more than sufficient - if education was the goal.

    I do understand that the average person often under-estimates the skill and effort it takes to be a good XC racer, but that is true for most sports. It is OK to educate, not so cool to humiliate.
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  75. #75
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    Jersey - I live in New Jersey myself and ride and race the trails in the northern part of the (rock) garden state. I have lurked on this board forever and have to say the likes of Glen, rt et al are phenominal racers - and I bet have excellent bike handling skills and could kick rear end on your group rides at technical places like Ringwood. They clearly love to race and work hard at it. I think your original question is highly dependent upon the venue and can not really be answed with a generalisation. Go race at Mt Snow - the XC course is VERY technical in places. The race course at Ringwood is pretty technical in places too but so are courses all over the country - Also, go race at Stewart in NY as that is not at all technical but fast and flowy. I prefer rocky, technical courses as I can not climb for $hit and make up time on down hills but unless you do races all over the country you will never really know....and to the riders/racers that don't know NJ singletrack come and race the 24 hours of allamuchy, you will have a great time!

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilks
    I have lurked on this board forever and have to say the likes of Glen, rt et al are phenominal racers - and I bet have excellent bike handling skills and could kick rear end on your group rides at technical places like Ringwood. They clearly love to race and work hard at it. I think your original question is highly dependent upon the venue and can not really be answed with a generalisation.
    Well put wilks - and far too generous, as you'll likely be lumped in with the "lovin" crowd now by our astute humility checkers here and bashed in that second-hand way now.

    Just freakin kidding ya'll.....

    Seriously though - hopefully the rightfully harsh critics of my original response have actually read some of my subsequent responses, and see that I'm not all that bad! If they still think so - oh well, not sure what else I can do - or care to do about it. Jersey has been too quiet (probably because he's a lot smarter - especially for his youthful age) than I am, as a crusty old phart. Funny, he seems to have "gotten it" more than his defenders in places - who still seem to think I'm some sort of dark evil lord of abuse. Any thing else that I have needed to have said - I've said.
    "It's better to regret something you HAVE done, than something you haven't..." -

  77. #77

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    Any thing else that I have needed to have said - I've said.
    I would hope so - after all, you're closing in on 3000 freaking posts on a mountain bike message board. What haven't you said?

    Someone stick a fork in this thread....it's done.

  78. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    where all the haggard rock gardens, step-ups, log crossings, drop-offs?
    i live in Northern NJ

    sorry I do not have pictures now, but I am assuring you that most XC races are pretty technical here in eastern Canada. There is the XC WC at MtSt-Anne, and you should ride it, pretty intense. I race the Quebec cup and all the races are help on pretty technical terrain. You live close enough that you could join us for some races....

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperClyde
    I would hope so - after all, you're closing in on 3000 freaking posts on a mountain bike message board. What haven't you said?

    Someone stick a fork in this thread....it's done.
    While I have posted quite a few pointless responses in my time (been around a long time...), I'd like to think I've contributed a few meaningful ride and race reports to the mtbr.com community - threads / posts that actually have some content that brings a useful topic to light, answers a question, or shows some sweet riding spots! Not just the usual "how do I fix my shock; what bike should I buy; where's the best deals...." Plus, I need all that western racer love / ego inflation I can get.
    "It's better to regret something you HAVE done, than something you haven't..." -

  80. #80

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    I strongly suggest you go to either Mount Snow, VT or Sugar Mountain NC nationals in June. I'll be at both, and they are two of the most technical courses I've ever ridden. I did Snowshoe a couple years back and it was incredibly technical.
    It's just that the best light for pictures are found in the open areas.

  81. #81
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    There are lots of technical trails in NC. Black mountain in the Pisgah Nntl Forest is a bear and a half.. (borrowed that pic for mntbike WNC)
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  82. #82
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    Rootberry,
    Pisgah is an absolutely beautiful place to ride. I've been there twice myself, and used one of those biking guidebooks and maps to decide which trails to ride.

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    Any of you guys go to many CX races?

    After watching Craig, Trebon, Wells, etc.. at the CX nationals last year...

    I think they could easily ride everything posted in this thread and every XC course I've ever ridden on a CX bike. (Not that I have raced a ton, I just think way more can be done on a CX bike then is usually assumed)

    They're just that good. 1' Jump ups, logs, 20% muddy grades uphill, etc.. they seem to be able to do it all. Getting on a MTB just makes them even faster.

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