Interesting Nino Interview- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Interesting Nino Interview

    Interesting interview: https://www.mtb-mag.com/en/33-questi...nino-schurter/
    He says that he has not been using tyre inserts for XC racing and that he has been racing a 120mm Spark, for example.

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    Nice thanks for posting that

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    30mm IW rims with 2.25 tires really eliminates the need of noodles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peabody View Post
    30mm IW rims with 2.25 tires really eliminates the need of noodles.
    Off Topic:

    Why, Does it eliminate most of the pinch flats? Thats my biggest issues with 2.25s inm Races.

    Our trails are far more nasty than WC. I need to re-lace some better rims to my hubs.



    BTW, I had never pinch flatted anything on my hooked LB 25 ID. New bike but I've pinch flatted probably 5 tires on Kovee Pro 23 ID. Wheels also are a SOB to seat the bead as well. Caused me to start the OZ trails epic 30 minutes late.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FJSnoozer View Post
    Off Topic:

    Why, Does it eliminate most of the pinch flats? Thats my biggest issues with 2.25s inm Races.

    Our trails are far more nasty than WC. I need to re-lace some better rims to my hubs.



    BTW, I had never pinch flatted anything on my hooked LB 25 ID. New bike but I've pinch flatted probably 5 tires on Kovee Pro 23 ID. Wheels also are a SOB to seat the bead as well. Caused me to start the OZ trails epic 30 minutes late.
    I have had more pinch flats this year with a 2.2-2.4 tire combination on a 30mm rim than I have had in the previous 10 years combined. And it is not just me, my whole riding crew has tires with the tell-tale double plug (one at the rim and one on the tread).

    Even with inserts and significantly increasing my air-pressure I am still struggling with pinches. The only bike which I have been pinch free on is the one with a 22.5mm internal rear rim.

    Could just be a run of bad luck, it could be that I am hitting stuff faster and harder than before, it could be that stiff carbon rim pinch tires, or it could be that wide rim are a problem.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

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    I've had a couple since going to 2.6 on 30mm rims, which is really unusual for me. I think it makes sense because you're running lower pressure and the higher volume gives the tire a lower spring rate, both of which make it easier to bottom out the rim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spsoon View Post
    I've had a couple since going to 2.6 on 30mm rims, which is really unusual for me. I think it makes sense because you're running lower pressure and the higher volume gives the tire a lower spring rate, both of which make it easier to bottom out the rim.
    A narrower tire on a 30IW rim has less light bulb effect, so harder to pinch flat and also less prone to sidewall tears. You are confused about higher volume creates lower spring rate, it's actually opposite (in simple terms) which is why you can drop pressure to get the same feel.

    I think it's some kind of anomaly in BC that has a person and all his friends getting more tire damage when clearly the trend is headed in WC racing to wider rims. It only makes sense as you don't see wide tires on narrow rims in any other form of sport that uses tires.

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    A narrow tire on a wide rim is usually more prone to sidewall cuts since the sidewall rather than the side knobs rub on trail side obstacles
    A large tire at low pressure can act as a more linear spring than a narrow tire at higher pressure, so for rowdy or normal BC riding, the larger tire might be more likely to bottom out.
    A noodle/liner might only need to big/wide enough so that the outer portion of the tire can't contact the rim flanges

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccm View Post
    A narrow tire on a wide rim is usually more prone to sidewall cuts since the sidewall rather than the side knobs rub on trail side obstacles
    A large tire at low pressure can act as a more linear spring than a narrow tire at higher pressure, so for rowdy or normal BC riding, the larger tire might be more likely to bottom out.
    A noodle/liner might only need to big/wide enough so that the outer portion of the tire can't contact the rim flanges
    I am always hesitant to say that a particular piece of equipment is causing an issue.

    I do know that on multiple WC teams there has been some concerns expressed about an increase in the number of pinch flats with adoption of wider rims. And it does seem that teams experimenting with 30s are struggling the most.

    Doesn't mean though the wider rims are the cause or even play a factor at all. Modern geometry, more suspension, droppers, improved rider skills all contribute to riders hitting things faster and harder than they have in the past. Watching MSA this year it was crystal clear on just how much harder people were hitting things.

    Still though I can't help but question if wider rims are a factor.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    Still though I can't help but question if wider rims are a factor.
    I'm happy to attribute it to wider rims if it means I don't have to buy a new wheelset to keep up with the trend

    (currently rolling in the stone age on some 23mm id rims that I'd rather now spend a chunk of money to replace)

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    My experience is that wider rims are, if anything, more prone to flats and tears. I think this is because 1) You can run lower pressure with a wide rim without the tire rolling when cornering; low pressure=more likelihood of bottoming out. And 2) reduced "lightbulb effect" means sidewalls are more exposed and you are more likely to pinch just the sidewall. With narrower rims pinches tend to be a rock-tread-sidewall-rim sandwich, and there's more material and reinforcement in the tread.

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    I'd take any and all answers that deal with the use of non-sponsored equipment with a large grain of salt.
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    I would not be shocked it if the pinch flats were due to wider rims and lower pressures. Low pressures and wide rims are great right till they are not. On narrow rims to low a pressure will move around alot since the cornering support comes from the air and less the rim. With wide rims you get alot of support from the rim so low pressures work. Well right until you pinch them. The other thing to consider is with a "light bulb" shape vs a flatter shape the there is more distance from the tire to the rim with narrow rims. Just think of sidewall height on both sides plus tread width. For a given tire it is always the same but on narrow rims that tends balloon out more and maybe create a few mm more space before the tire contacts the rim on a hit. These factors while small if combined with simply hitting things harder due to more speed probably increases the liklihood of a pinch flat that cuts the tire.

    What I do know from running 29x3.0 and 29x2.6 on 35mm wide wheels vs 2.3 on 21mm wide wheels is that due to the lower pressures I can run the possiblity of banging rim feel more with wide rims and tires. I so much more pressure in narrow wheels that (or so much less on wide) that the narrow just don't contact. On wide wheels and tires not only can I run less pressure, but I also have to. For a time I ran 29x3.0 with I rigid fork. At 12 psi it would bounce everywhere. At 10 psi it feel oh so night right till I banged a rim. 11 psi was the place to ride it keep it feeling nice, but not band the rim too much. Super sensitive.
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    I don't think there's a large range of rims and tires for XC racing if you want to go fast. You can ride whatever you want to ride, but I don't see any real application beyond a fairly narrow range of rim and tire widths. The overall size has increased a bit, but there's a range where you get the optimal traction to mass. Pretty soon you are just carrying extra tire and rim weight that doesn't make you faster. It's not about comfort and railing turns. You need those things to a degree, but to a far lesser degree than just tooling around with friends on a DH. You need to have the fitness and ability to pass someone on the climbs and the descending skills to keep your place or move ahead and put pressure on the DH. There'll always be someone riding a 3.0"-tire SS, but it's usually rare that they win and when they do, more of an indication of a lack of competitiveness in the race series.

    In the same idea, I'm pumping up my tires for a race and I don't want to get a pinch and have to put a tube in or fuss with a plug (which has limited ability for a pinch near the bead). It doesn't mean rock hard...but some will think that compared to the 12psi they run usually, but it means I don't want the sidewall to collapse under hard cornering and I don't want to pinch it. The only kind of flat I want it to deal with is a thorn, where the sealant will do it's thing. Anything else and you'll lose too much time trying to repair it. I have serious doubts that lowering the PSI to grip more will really make you faster in a race where so much of it is about physical ability and fitness. The harder you ride, the more pressure you need.
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    While I agree with some of what you are saying, many of the top WC racers clearly have a different view as there is a pretty clear trend toward lower pressures (and wider rims). In the OP video, for example, Nino says that his pressures are around 1.15-1.25 bar F and 1.25-1.3 R, which is about 16-18 psi F and 18-19 R.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mmmaaaiiikkk View Post
    Interesting interview: https://www.mtb-mag.com/en/33-questi...nino-schurter/
    He says that he has not been using tyre inserts for XC racing and that he has been racing a 120mm Spark, for example.
    Does he mean 120mm front or 120mm rear? I couldn't quite discern what he meant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerpss View Post
    Does he mean 120mm front or 120mm rear? I couldn't quite discern what he meant.
    Yes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerpss View Post
    Does he mean 120mm front or 120mm rear? I couldn't quite discern what he meant.
    I think he says fork but it's a bit hard to understand for me. I had no idea he was running 120. I'm sure there are others!

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    Quote Originally Posted by trmn8er View Post
    I think he says fork but it's a bit hard to understand for me. I had no idea he was running 120. I'm sure there are others!
    You can tell when he runs more fork travel because he uses the alloy crown/steerer on his fork. I have to believe RS is testing the carbon one tho to work with 120 travel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peabody View Post
    You can tell when he runs more fork travel because he uses the alloy crown/steerer on his fork. I have to believe RS is testing the carbon one tho to work with 120 travel.
    Iíve been hoping that RS will make a sub-1600g version of a Pike for a long time. Iím quite surprised the 34 SC hasnít had any real competition in this realm yet.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Iíve been hoping that RS will make a sub-1600g version of a Pike for a long time. Iím quite surprised the 34 SC hasnít had any real c_ompetition in this realm yet.


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    It's a big ask to take a 1/2 lb off the Pike.(considering SIDs are in the 1600+ gram range)
    The 34 SC is a niche market ....semi stiff, semi light and 120 travel....in a world where most want either more travel or a lighter fork.

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    Redbull had a bike check this season. 110mm front travel, 120mm back and low tires pressures.

    https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/nino-schurter-bike-check

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    Here is interesting test on punctures and sidewall tears with tire pressure.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00fAYL6mvjo

    I have personally been running tire inserts with lower PSI for over a year now and (knock on wood) have not punctured, pinch flatted or torn sidewall since. I am completely sold on running tire inserts with lower PSI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by In2falling View Post
    Here is interesting test on punctures and sidewall tears with tire pressure.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00fAYL6mvjo

    I have personally been running tire inserts with lower PSI for over a year now and (knock on wood) have not punctured, pinch flatted or torn sidewall since. I am completely sold on running tire inserts with lower PSI.
    Everyone is very confused about the facts here.

    Nino uses 120mm REAR 110mm Fork
    30mm rim 2.4 tires. Some of the team was running test pilot tires.

    The extra travel for traction and wide low pressure tires are a massive advantage especially combined with his riding skills. Probably why cannondale both slid out in snowshoe trying to follow Nino and Lars. Pretty sure cannondale and trek use 2.2 tires

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    Quote Originally Posted by In2falling View Post
    I have personally been running tire inserts with lower PSI for over a year now and (knock on wood) have not punctured, pinch flatted or torn sidewall since. I am completely sold on running tire inserts with lower PSI.
    What do you consider "lower PSI"?

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    Axxios patches?
    Really?

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    From a mechanical engineers take.
    The lower pressures will increase the chance a sharp rock pushes the tire into the rim. Anything sharp and pointy will push in further.

  28. #28
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    I am not fast enough to race WC, and therefore their race setups don't apply to me.

    What Nino does, and what I can do are totally different. I am not going to make any modifications based on his successes and failures, only my own.

    That said, I am sticking with narrow rims, no dropper, and a hard tail. Because in my shitty little world of racing, that is what is fast for ME.

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    From the interview with Nino (and Kate) on pinkbike on April 16, 2020:

    "With the new 2.4 tires we don't run any inserts anymore. A good rim and tire combination is the key and then you don't need any inserts anymore."

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/ask-us...nd-maxxis.html (interview Q&A in the comments at bottom of webpage)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pegleg81 View Post
    From the interview with Nino (and Kate) on pinkbike on April 16, 2020:

    "With the new 2.4 tires we don't run any inserts anymore. A good rim and tire combination is the key and then you don't need any inserts anymore."

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/ask-us...nd-maxxis.html (interview Q&A in the comments at bottom of webpage)
    ...So you mean to tell me that a teeny little chick like Kate Courtney is going to push wide rims and fat tires uphill, and still win races? We're talking an extra 400g at the wheels, with a sub-300w FTP. Nino is one thing, but even he's not as strong as his toughening competition.

    Based upon my timed tests of wider tires, I remain skeptical. It will be interesting to see if these two top female and male pros gap the field or get beaten, should they remain with this setup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chomxxo View Post
    ...So you mean to tell me that a teeny little chick like Kate Courtney is going to push wide rims and fat tires uphill, and still win races? We're talking an extra 400g at the wheels, with a sub-300w FTP. Nino is one thing, but even he's not as strong as his toughening competition.

    Based upon my timed tests of wider tires, I remain skeptical. It will be interesting to see if these two top female and male pros gap the field or get beaten, should they remain with this setup.
    Considering that the weight difference between the XCR 25 (1411 claimed) and XCR 30 (1480 claimed) is about 70 grams, and the difference in weights between the old 2.25 aspens or rekon race (670 claimed) and the new versions (760 claimed) is 90 grams, that's 250ish grams gained total.

    They raced with this setup last year, so the results with wider tires, wider rims,dropper post, and more suspension are there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ksanman View Post
    Considering that the weight difference between the XCR 25 (1411 claimed) and XCR 30 (1480 claimed) is about 70 grams, and the difference in weights between the old 2.25 aspens or rekon race (670 claimed) and the new versions (760 claimed) is 90 grams, that's 250ish grams gained total.

    They raced with this setup last year, so the results with wider tires, wider rims,dropper post, and more suspension are there.
    OK let me redo your tally for you.

    rims (2 of them)
    69g
    69g

    tires (2 of them)
    90g
    90g

    total: 318g

    Plus the weight of the foam inserts that they were not/were using and that's over 400g.

    Internet experts are one thing, I guess I should be unsurprised at the gross conjecture. What disappoints me is that I'm starting to realize that neither pro racers, nor pro coaches, nor the bike manufacturers really know if their stuff is faster or not, because they never actually test it--just ask LMN!

    The appeal to authority arguments are getting really tiresome.

    Although I think the mode is generally improving, which of Nino's expert opinions on bike setup should I trust?

    27.5 hardtail
    27.5 full suspension
    29er full suspension with narrow tires and rims
    29er full suspension with wide rims and narrow tires
    29er full suspension with wide rims and wide tires

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    Quote Originally Posted by chomxxo View Post
    ...

    Internet experts are one thing, I guess I should be unsurprised at the gross conjecture. What disappoints me is that I'm starting to realize that neither pro racers, nor pro coaches, nor the bike manufacturers really know if their stuff is faster or not, because they never actually test it--just ask LMN!

    The appeal to authority arguments are getting really tiresome...
    Actually, the Swiss team hired a scientist/engineering consulting group to run numerous randomized tests and feed those results into the equipment the team uses. The tests I've come across and read include:

    27.5 vs 29
    FS vs HT
    Wide vs. Narrow rims

    I used to find free downloads of these studies on PubMed, but they don't appear to be on there anymore...and the computer I downloaded them to has crashed.

    Long story short, THEY DID ACTUALLY TEST. Their decisions were based in scientific method...the studies were pretty sound and for some, the results statistically significant.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by chomxxo View Post
    OK let me redo your tally for you.

    rims (2 of them)
    69g
    69g

    tires (2 of them)
    90g
    90g

    total: 318g

    Plus the weight of the foam inserts that they were not/were using and that's over 400g.

    Internet experts are one thing, I guess I should be unsurprised at the gross conjecture. What disappoints me is that I'm starting to realize that neither pro racers, nor pro coaches, nor the bike manufacturers really know if their stuff is faster or not, because they never actually test it--just ask LMN!

    The appeal to authority arguments are getting really tiresome.

    Although I think the mode is generally improving, which of Nino's expert opinions on bike setup should I trust?

    27.5 hardtail
    27.5 full suspension
    29er full suspension with narrow tires and rims
    29er full suspension with wide rims and narrow tires
    29er full suspension with wide rims and wide tires
    You tally doesn't make any sense.

    The difference in the complete wheelset is 69g.

    Each tire is an additional 90g minus ~70g for each insert they are no longer using.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by chomxxo View Post
    Internet experts are one thing, I guess I should be unsurprised at the gross conjecture. What disappoints me is that I'm starting to realize that neither pro racers, nor pro coaches, nor the bike manufacturers really know if their stuff is faster or not, because they never actually test it--just ask LMN!
    Actually, we test stuff all the time. I have stated that over and over again. I have shared results, you just choose to ignore results that you disagree with. You have absolutely no idea how many hundreds of hours I have spent testing different tires, crank lengths, bar widths, stem lengths, or how many prototype frames I have sitting in my basement. This is what happens at the Pro level everywhere.

    The thing that I have discovered over the years is that it is really hard to get data that means anything. I would test setup A versus setup B and get one result one day, the next day I would get the opposite result and so on. In the end it always comes down a conversation with the rider about what equipment and set-up they feel will allow them to ride at their limit.

    The set-up that riders find ideal evolves over time as their style and skills evolve. I think all of us have had the experience of hoping on an old bike that use to feel absolutely perfect and it feeling absolutely terrible.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

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    Interesting Nino Interview

    Quote Originally Posted by chomxxo View Post
    OK let me redo your tally for you.

    rims (2 of them)
    69g
    69g

    tires (2 of them)
    90g
    90g

    total: 318g

    Plus the weight of the foam inserts that they were not/were using and that's over 400g.

    Internet experts are one thing, I guess I should be unsurprised at the gross conjecture. What disappoints me is that I'm starting to realize that neither pro racers, nor pro coaches, nor the bike manufacturers really know if their stuff is faster or not, because they never actually test it--just ask LMN!

    The appeal to authority arguments are getting really tiresome.

    Although I think the mode is generally improving, which of Nino's expert opinions on bike setup should I trust?

    27.5 hardtail
    27.5 full suspension
    29er full suspension with narrow tires and rims
    29er full suspension with wide rims and narrow tires
    29er full suspension with wide rims and wide tires
    Why would you double the weight difference between two wheel sets? One wheel set weighs 1411g, one 1480; why are you saying 69x2???

    The difference in the rims themselves is 69/2, meaning 34.5g per rim. Not 69g per rim.


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