The effects of Testosterone on athletic performance, from my personal experience...- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    The effects of Testosterone on athletic performance, from my personal experience...

    As a follow up to the closed down thread, where T levels seem to be a topic brought up by CaroCO as a primary determining factor in male / trans female athletic performance.

    "The effects of Testosterone on (male) athletic performance, from my personal experience, are not that great unless you are competing at the very top of your field. Especially less important in sports where raw explosive strength is not a primary trait needed to succeed.

    I am a male and had very low T until my late 30s when I was diagnosed and treated.

    However I had above average athleticism in many sports, competing with males, obviously.

    But what really opened my eyes is that I begin MXing in earnest at 31 (a dinosaur in MX terms) with no hope at all of ever being more than an Intermediate MX racer, but my lap times at a particular MX track were faster than all but1 Pro-Women's MXer on the same track, with me only having about 4 years of MX obsessed practice. And I did this with what later turned out to be exceedingly low T levels. Against women that had lived, breathed, and trained MX since childhood. I am not some super MXer, far from it.

    Other evidence is that I have encountered several instances of trans-women finishing very well competing against women in: MX, track, MMA, boxxing, etc... However there is not one example of a trans man (biological woman on HRT with Male levels of T) competing well against men.

    CaroCO, you specifically stated that you detrained to reduce your body size. Yet you compete well against women that train their butts offs. With all due respect, you are not an outstandingly gifted female athlete, but are instead a mediocre poorly trained biological male competing as a female.

    You have a right to live your life as you see fit, right up until you repress the rights of others with your actions. Competing against biological females with a biological man's body, even with a low T poorly trained one, is simply cheating.

    ~ take care

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    As a follow up to the closed down thread, where T levels seem to be a topic brought up by CaroCO as a primary determining factor in male / trans female athletic performance.

    "The effects of Testosterone on (male) athletic performance, from my personal experience, are not that great unless you are competing at the very top of your field. Especially less important in sports where raw explosive strength is not a primary trait needed to succeed.

    I am a male and had very low T until my late 30s when I was diagnosed and treated.

    However I had above average athleticism in many sports, competing with males, obviously.

    But what really opened my eyes is that I begin MXing in earnest at 31 (a dinosaur in MX terms) with no hope at all of ever being more than an Intermediate MX racer, but my lap times at a particular MX track were faster than all but1 Pro-Women's MXer on the same track, with me only having about 4 years of MX obsessed practice. And I did this with what later turned out to be exceedingly low T levels. Against women that had lived, breathed, and trained MX since childhood. I am not some super MXer, far from it.

    Other evidence is that I have encountered several instances of trans-women finishing very well competing against women in: MX, track, MMA, boxxing, etc... However there is not one example of a trans man (biological woman on HRT with Male levels of T) competing well against men.

    CaroCO, you specifically stated that you detrained to reduce your body size. Yet you compete well against women that train their butts offs. With all due respect, you are not an outstandingly gifted female athlete, but are instead a mediocre poorly trained biological male competing as a female.

    You have a right to live your life as you see fit, right up until you repress the rights of others with your actions. Competing against biological females with a biological man's body, even with a low T poorly trained one, is simply cheating.

    ~ take care
    You're entitled to your opinion. That doesn't mean opinions are right, or justified, or aren't offensive and bigoted as hell. By the same token, your experience as a cis male is in no way related to that of a trans woman's. But I will take care to give zero ****s about being called out like this and go on my merry, Olympic-ruling-supported way and keep doing what I do.

    Good day, sir.

  3. #3
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    It's not 'bigoted', it's biology. You have resorted to trying to shame people in to not protesting you.

    At some point phrases like "that's bigoted" or "your racist" lose their meaning when they are used in places they don't apply.

    You also made a lot of claims about your lack of T, making you athletically a woman. I on the other hand provided real life examples that this just isn't true. I'm trying to provide additional evidence for you to consider.

    As far as the ruling on Trans athletes (competing in the Olympics I guess?), it's a PC reaction and nothing more. In time common sense will prevail. Trans people have historically been treated unfairly in regards to housing, taxation, employment, and so on. This is a travesty and all must continually work to end this. However as is often the case, the pendulum swings too far back in these cases creating another wrong. Affirmative Action of any kind being the most glaring modern example of this. However 2 wrongs don't make a right. The situation with biological men competing with women as women, needs to come to an end.

    It's not personal and on any issue related to your rights as a human being, you have my full support and even vote. But not on cheating in sports to the detriment of women.

    ~ take care
    Last edited by Suns_PSD; 08-03-2018 at 09:51 AM.

  4. #4
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    A male deficient in testosterone you'll find still has way more than the average female, and for a lifetime of growing.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    But not on cheating in sports to the detriment of women.
    It's not cheating to follow the rules set up for the competition. If you have a problem with the rules, the correct target is the governing body, not the participants.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbxplorer View Post
    It's not cheating to follow the rules set up for the competition. If you have a problem with the rules, the correct target is the governing body, not the participants.
    I do agree that the rules should be targeted. But then again, as you can see, you will be called offensive names if you attempt to make Biological/ logical arguments. It would be much tougher on those actually making the rules than us just discussing on a forum,

    However many things have been legal or allowed by the rules that were later decided to be immoral or wrong. Slavery was once legal after all. MJ is still illegal in many places. Those are two overt examples but they make a point that doing the right thing shouldn't solely be determined by a 'governing body'.

    ~ take care

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRPABT1 View Post
    A male deficient in testosterone you'll find still has way more than the average female, and for a lifetime of growing.
    FYI in the other thread, he posted his testosterone levels and they are/were in the middle of the female range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heathpack View Post
    FYI in the other thread, he posted his testosterone levels and they are/were in the middle of the female range.
    At the time of testing...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRPABT1 View Post
    At the time of testing...
    Yes. And the point being, he was athletically competitive with men at the time and way stronger than women. When trans women race with cis women, they argue itís ďfairĒ because at the time they race, their testosterone levels are in the female range. Like Suns, they developed as a male (presumably in a high testosterone physiologic state), then later reduce testosterone levels to the female range.

    Sunsí point is that he has a similar hormonal history yet had always competed well against men, and been stronger than women.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heathpack View Post
    Yes. And the point being, he was athletically competitive with men at the time and way stronger than women. When trans women race with cis women, they argue itís ďfairĒ because at the time they race, their testosterone levels are in the female range. Like Suns, they developed as a male (presumably in a high testosterone physiologic state), then later reduce testosterone levels to the female range.

    Sunsí point is that he has a similar hormonal history yet had always competed well against men, and been stronger than women.
    Alright, I was gonna leave this alone but Sun openly admitted to not taking testosterone through a prescribing physician, and does not get regularly tested. There is a ton of variation even in prescription medications much less whatever backwater crap he is taking. Itís not a one and done thing. Hormones change over time, your body absorbs them differently over time. And it has various effects over time. Heís also not on T blockers people! Heís not undergone invasive surgery! His position, and utterly asinine dig at me is overwhelmingly inaccurate and anecdotal at best, and is based on zero empirical evidence whatsoever. Whereas study after study, published or not, refutes every single claim heís made, and others have made in previous threads, with empirically derived DATA. Guess what else they found? There is zero residual benefit.

    Beardenís average power and lactate threshold dropped 11% on hrt. Which, drum roll please, is exactly the difference between cis men and cis women in elite sport.

    Sun is no way, shape, form, or IN ANY WAY representative of the physiology of trans people and itís downright bullshit that he is trying to convince you all he is.

    Like I said before, the decision has been made by higher authorities than any of you, and youíre either going to find a way to live with us in your sport and be happy, or keep fighting a losing fight and be miserable.

    Either way, I donít give a damn. Be angry. Who cares? Itís an online forum. Anything you say here makes zero effect on policy. Realize how small your voice truly is because itís utterly minuscule. Nothing you do will stop me racing and enjoying it. You want to have input? Grow up and pursue it in the proper channels and stop attacking athletes. Show me scientific date within the last 3 years that proves me wrong.

    Even if you do Iíll still race in the womenís field. Because thatís who I am and youíll never. EVER. Take that away from me.

    Also, props to the guy mainsplaining womenís bodies in the womenís forum, and comparing trans women in sport to slavery. That takes some serious ego, dude.

    Iím out. This Cracker Jack shit is a waste of my time.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaroCO View Post
    Itís an online forum. Anything you say here makes zero effect on policy. Realize how small your voice truly is because itís utterly minuscule. Nothing you do will stop me racing and enjoying it.
    Even if you do Iíll still race in the womenís field. Because thatís who I am and youíll never. EVER. Take that away from me.
    Iím out. This Cracker Jack shit is a waste of my time.
    This is the whole point of the forum, to encourage debate, I don't agree with your position, but haven't made it personal.
    At this stage you can race in the women's field but I don't think it's fair until there is more evidence than trans-female athletes don't have any residual advantages from before the transition.
    Closer to home, Laurel Hubbard, a weightlifter who transitioned at around age 34, had her competitors trying to lose weight, so they wouldn't be in the same weight class as Hubbard as she was so dominant.
    I don't think there as is an equivalent for cycling. It may be that your fellow competitors shy away from competing rather than risk ostracizing you.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaroCO View Post
    Even if you do Iíll still race in the womenís field. Because thatís who I am and youíll never. EVER. Take that away from me.
    And this is it in a nutshell. You feel entitled and as if you are owed something. You put forth the question of how do your competitors feel about it but at the end of the day you simply do not care. Newsflash, life isn't fair. Other people are born with extremely debilitating conditions everyday that they cannot help, you're not a special snowflake there.

    Yes, I do not feel that you should be allowed to race with women. You almost certainly have a biomechancial advantage due to skeletal structure. No one has been able to answer my question concerning what happens to the natural muscle mass that was built before you transitioned. As long as you work to maintain it some of it will still be there right? If so, sorry that's the same as doping. Note, I'm not talking about T levels or any other chemical levels.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Last edited by tuckerjt07; 08-10-2018 at 08:36 AM.

  13. #13
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    Womp womp

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    There are many examples of trans women competing (often dominating actually) against women.

    My question is simply, can someone show an example of a trans man, on HRT, dominating, or even competing at an average level with males? Cause to be blunt, for instance in the 100 meter dash, the fastest juicing woman (Joyner, since dead) is positively pedestrian compared to the Olympic men, and frankly much slower than even the fastest boy HS amateur runners.

    The idea that hormones alone primarily account for the athletic differences between the sexes is a silly notion all around.

  15. #15
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    Trying to get the last word in, eh?

  16. #16
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    Wurd!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by formica View Post
    Trying to get the last word in, eh?
    Actually I asked you and others a question, so you and others had a chance to answer the question.

    But since the answer to my question would completely invalidate your position it's better that you make a snide comment, or possible call me a name than admit that trans women are cheating by competing against women.

    Please feel free to follow up. I have no need to respond anymore. You are too ingrained in your personal desires to think of others and general principles.

    In my life I have only encountered 1 group more self absorbed, close minded and selfish than the far right, the far left has them by a mile.

    Take care.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Actually I asked you and others a question, so you and others had a chance to answer the question.

    But since the answer to my question would completely invalidate your position it's better that you make a snide comment, or possible call me a name than admit that trans women are cheating by competing against women.

    Please feel free to follow up. I have no need to respond anymore. You are too ingrained in your personal desires to think of others and general principles.

    In my life I have only encountered 1 group more self absorbed, close minded and selfish than the far right, the far left has them by a mile.

    Take care.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
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