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  1. #401
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by oldranger View Post
    Note: their Gravity Rims are very popular amongst the riders in the Southeast. They have a 28.5mm internal width and in the 26" diameter the rim weighs 530g. I just can't afford a set at $1,200-$1,400.

    So...I have contacted them and will see if I can get some time with one of their folks to understand how they came up with 28.5 inner width. On their website they write: "The added traction and support our 28.5mm internal width provides is an incredible upgrade from the industry standard 21mm."

    26\" Gravity
    You are correct! I should have clarified that they are not yet convinced on the wide carbon rims.
    Function in disaster, finish in style.

  2. #402
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    Belive. Live. It's the mtb dream. It's finally here. Big rubber. Wide rims. Tubeless.
    On my 6.5" big boy bike. And my steel SS. And my trusty road bike.
    Volume. Lower/less tread. Bigger footprint. Lower psi.
    I run pacenti tl28 and dl31. Great rims. Narrow by wide standards. But much wider than the pinner rims of the late 80's 90's. A noticeable difference!

  3. #403
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    Pacenti

    Pacenti; that was a new one for me. Never heard of that company but they seem interesting. Nice MSRP at $80 - $90 per rim.

    From their website:
    The Pacenti DL31 rim was orignially designed as an Enduro rim, but has proven much tougher than its weight might suggest. For the last 2 seasons the DL31 has been proven on the toughest DH tracks in Europe under several Pro teams; including winning the 2013 Scottish National DH title under Joe Connell. The DL31 has a tubeless friendly design, welded construction and stainless steel eyelets. The DL31 is a wide, light rim designed for hard core trail riding, Enduro racing and the most extreme levels of DH abuse.

    DL31 Specifications:

    * Size: ISO 559 - 26"
    * Width: 31.0mm
    * Inner bead width: 26mm
    * Section Height: 20mm
    * ERD: 538mm
    * Weight: 522g
    * Welded Construction
    Attached Images Attached Images   

  4. #404
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    this picture sums up why I don't want wide rims. confirms my suspicions and riding experience that these are good for people who like to ride straight up and down, and don't lean. just like too wide of a motorcycle tire on a street bike makes the steering flat, vague, and lazy... until tire companies come up with something, I'll pass
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Wide Rims?  Don't believe the hype...-ibis-741-review-2470-780x520.jpg  

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  5. #405
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    i'm guessing wide rim on the left? i feel like anything over 27mm is too much, then it blocks the tires and you can't lean the bike over.

  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    this picture sums up why I don't want wide rims. confirms my suspicions and riding experience that these are good for people who like to ride straight up and down, and don't lean. just like too wide of a motorcycle tire on a street bike makes the steering flat, vague, and lazy... until tire companies come up with something, I'll pass
    Is there a shot looking at the profile of the tire, the curvature of the tread face?

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    this picture sums up why I don't want wide rims.
    (1) You should not repost copyrighted images from one site on another. That image comes from this article.

    (2) That image is suspicious. The rim on the left is (supposedly) 41mm wide and has a 58mm wide tire on it, yet it appears that we see the rim outside the sidewall. Whatever the white-ish lines on either side are, they are not the (Ibis) rim.

    This picture tells us nothing other than that the tread doesn't get wider with wider rims (as some believe).

    The article reads like a forum post, but here's an interesting quote:

    "...we did experience some issues when it came to tyre choice. The tyres that perform best with these rims are those with rounded profiles, Maxxis Minions DHF, Schwalbe Hans Dampfs, and Maxxis Shorty’s all performed very well. However tyres with defined shoulder knobs or very square edges performed less so, with the breakaway point being moved to a shallower angle of lean and a resultant highly unpredictable handling. ..."

    So the tire in the picture is one that is claimed to work well, as does the Minion DHF. Curious considering the comments here. As for other tires working less well, duh. That has been true since the dawn of time.

    Find evidence that wide rims make all tires perform poorly and you might have something.

  8. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    (2) That image is suspicious. The rim on the left is (supposedly) 41mm wide and has a 58mm wide tire on it, yet it appears that we see the rim outside the sidewall. Whatever the white-ish lines on either side are, they are not the (Ibis) rim.
    Suspicious?

    The white-ish lines are part of the sidewall of the tire. Look at the next image down. See the sidewall there, with the cross-hatched pattern? That's the reinforced part of the carcass that is intended to protect against cuts and give stability.

    It's not visible in the pic on the 23mm rim because it's actually on the sidewall. The 35mm rim is stretching the tire profile enough that the sidewall is much nearer to ground.

  9. #409
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    The Pacenti rims were a treat to build up. I love that they have eyelets. The tubeless bead is excellent . With tires snapping into the seat reassuringly with a commpressor. And no obnoxious graphics.

  10. #410
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    Another relevant comment from the article/review of those wide Ibis rims:

    "Riding in Scotland we could not find any mud tyres that suited the wheels, most common spikes have a narrow tread profile and look like a Mohawk on the burly Ibis rims. "

    DH racers should really have a set mud tires. So if you go Ibis wide, be prepared to have another wheel set to support your wet conditions racing. Based on your mud tire of choice, it is possible you will have problems getting that tire to mount and give you the shape you need. I can't imagine seeing my Continental Mud Kings mounted up on these.

  11. #411
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    I've ridden the derbys with minions, same thing, outside knobs point upwards, I don't like the feeling when leaning over far, when you expect the tire to start pushing and drift it just kinda rolls over the knobs and just feels like its gonna tuck, instead of holding on and drifting. That picture shows exactly what I thought was happening. I'm not here to try and win the mtbr online argument. I'm just relaying my experience and opinion. Buy whatever you want I don't give a crap.
    friends don't let friends Fred

  12. #412
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    My buddy has those Pacenti's, they are very light, and soft. Dent very easily
    friends don't let friends Fred

  13. #413
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    With big tires , I have not dented these. I use 2.4 chunkey monkey on front and smorgashbord on the rear. 18 and 20 psi . Tubeless. On a full rigid SS.

  14. #414
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    Lol, Shredman says I'm clueless on my reputation sheet. LOL socal Fred has some nerve, I'd ride circles around you with your fancy shiny fred bikes.
    friends don't let friends Fred

  15. #415
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    Shredman neg repped me as well. He probably went through neg repping anyone that didn't bow down and pay homage to wide rims... because obviously, intelligent discourse should be eliminated. One opinion to rule them all!

  16. #416
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    I got a response from Pacenti on a message I sent them. Note upfront that Pacenti DL 31 rims have a 26mm inner width and therefore are not considered 'wide' in the context of this discussion.

    I have an excellent first impression of this company. Kirk Pacenti (father of the 650b tire diameter for MTB) has the kind of resume we need contributing to this discussion. I haven't asked his permission to quote him, but I will paraphrase a couple things from his very prompt, thorough response to my question. I asked him: "Hi, Do you offer 'wide' rims for DH use? I hear that today's 'wide' is more like 30mm inner width. But I see you've designed yours differently. I'm interested in your thoughts on the 26mm inner width and why that is best."

    Key points from his response:
    1) Once you get over 26-27mm inner width, the tire starts to get very square and doesn't roll over in corners and turns as easily as it should
    2) He designed the P35 and found the bike had so much traction you had to change your riding style. It was nearly impossible to break loose when you wanted them to.
    3) He prefers a slightly narrower DH rim for real racing
    4) They have pro DH teams racing the DL31

    I think the DH riders/racers monitoring this thread will well understand the second point I paraphrased from Mr. Pacenti. Yody has already comments on this.

    Yody - I can imagine those Pacenti Rims do dent easily. AT 530 grams they would be too light for me - I make mistakes and dent my relatively soft FR600s that weigh in at 600 grams. That said - the DL31 might be a really good race day option and they have a great price point.

  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    My buddy has those Pacenti's, they are very light, and soft. Dent very easily
    They're about the same as Flow in the dent dept imo. DL31 little easier to fix the half dents, have you compared the newer offerings from Alex or DT?
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  18. #418
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    I race my pacenti rims. I've also dented every rim I've used sooner or later. My crank brothers iodine wheels are the worst softest rims ever.
    I'm not DH ing though . Only Xc . So stuff lasts longer

  19. #419
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    I've found the higher volume tires like some of the Schwalbes and Maxxis still give me a slightly round profile on the Fatties. I used to really like the Nevegal in 2.5 on my 36mm OD wide 26" rims. I don't have any issues with cornering using Hans Damfs or Nobby Nics on the Fatties, the 2.4 Ardents would also work well. The choice of tires to match the rim width is very important to the overall performance of the combo.
    Function in disaster, finish in style.

  20. #420
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    I'm a hype-believer. I ordered a set of Roval Traverse Fattie SL 29er wheels. Under 1600g with 30mm internal width and 6-degree hub engagement -- sounds pretty sweet to me.

  21. #421
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    i feel that for some, wide tires are useful, i feel that for some tires, like the DHF that a wide tire wouldn't block it out too much, i rode some Roval Traverse SL Fattie 650B 142+ wheels, on an Sworks Enduro, and i didn't find any faults in them on the ride, i cornered hard on flat ground, i didn't use many berms on the trail ride for the demo. i didn't think there was anything special about them though, they felt similar to my 23mm wheels, only lighter and stronger. i didn't look at the tires and see if they had an odd shape, but on the trail the felt fine. i didn't find any limitation in cornering, but it was only a 30-45 minute ride, and it was all together a new bike.

    It'd be cool to be able to throw on a pair of wide rims on my current bike, ride my favorite trails, and see if there is a noticeable difference. for free that is.

  22. #422
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    Wider rims and large casing tires, make rigid SS riding quite nice. For this application I welcome the trend. But this doesn't mean I'll be swapping out the wheels on the other bikes .

  23. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Suspicious?
    Yeah, suspicious. Of course the lines have to be part of the tire. I've never produced such a thing on the images I've taken of that same perspective. It's incumbent on the authors and photographers to produce information that informs, not misleads. The other 99 shots out of 100 would not look like that IMO.

    Not sure what that photograph tells anyone once you factor out how peculiar one side looks. It's meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Shredman neg repped me as well. He probably went through neg repping anyone that didn't bow down and pay homage to wide rims... because obviously, intelligent discourse should be eliminated. One opinion to rule them all!
    Intelligent discourse?

    The rep system is worthless and ineffective as is complaining about it in-thread. Simply don't participate.

    Even more embarrassing is people who attach insults (friends don't let friends Fred) in their footer. It's clear who people are.

  24. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Yeah, suspicious. Of course the lines have to be part of the tire. I've never produced such a thing on the images I've taken of that same perspective. It's incumbent on the authors and photographers to produce information that informs, not misleads. The other 99 shots out of 100 would not look like that IMO.

    Not sure what that photograph tells anyone once you factor out how peculiar one side looks. It's meaningless.
    Actually, when I read your post with 'suspicious' I thought it was an interesting term to use because it seemed as if you believed the photo was taken with the tire on a different wheel. Not wrong, but suspicious. As in fake, or deceptive?

    It's not fake, it probably hasn't been photoshopped, and the article does contain several pieces of information (pictures and text) that clearly express the opinion that wide rims are not an improvement for some tires.

  25. #425
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    Here are my experiences...not DH. I live in Wisconsin so mostly XC and some AM/TR. I was on a set of skinny rims and 29x2.1s and hated them. Then I went BIG with a set of P35s and Conti Trail King 2.4s. Traction for miles, but I had to re-dish the rear wheel for FD clearance and they rubbed by noodly fork like crazy. Switched to 29x2.2 and fixed the rubbing issues. The tires measured almost 2.4 on the wide rims though. I then switched to a 23mm internal rim and the 2.2 tires now feel much better, but I have to run higher pressures and they slide around much more. All of my experiences follow what was paraphrased above about the P35 rim and changing riding style.

  26. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Yeah, suspicious. Of course the lines have to be part of the tire. I've never produced such a thing on the images I've taken of that same perspective. It's incumbent on the authors and photographers to produce information that informs, not misleads. The other 99 shots out of 100 would not look like that IMO.

    Not sure what that photograph tells anyone once you factor out how peculiar one side looks. It's meaningless.


    Intelligent discourse?

    The rep system is worthless and ineffective as is complaining about it in-thread. Simply don't participate.

    Even more embarrassing is people who attach insults (friends don't let friends Fred) in their footer. It's clear who people are.
    I can call you herb instead of Fred if it makes you feel any better, lmao
    friends don't let friends Fred

  27. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Actually, when I read your post with 'suspicious' I thought it was an interesting term to use because it seemed as if you believed the photo was taken with the tire on a different wheel. Not wrong, but suspicious. As in fake, or deceptive?

    It's not fake, it probably hasn't been photoshopped, and the article does contain several pieces of information (pictures and text) that clearly express the opinion that wide rims are not an improvement for some tires.
    Yes as in fake or deceptive.

    The article did express an opinion clearly, one that seemed no more informed than many forum posts, but the article was not posted here, only a single picture that looked suspicious. There is no reason to believe that picture supports any narrative and the article itself claims that pictured tire works well with the wide rim.

  28. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    I can call you herb instead of Fred if it makes you feel any better, lmao
    I would have to respect you in order to care what you called me.

  29. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    I would have to respect you in order to care what you called me.
    The feeling is mutual then, because i have zero respect for armchair quarterback engineers who can't ride for **** but love to argue online about specs and millimeters and lazer beams and convince themselves that they are right because they win the internet. I bet you ride by yourself all the time because nobody wants to hear your techno babble the whole ride, lmao
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  30. #430
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    Well this is fun guys. Sounds like it's time for some back to back to back to back testing. Unfortunately most of us don't have the coin to drop on multiple wheelsets to put through the wringer. If only there were "people" with "relationships" with these "companies" that could ride competing "products" and share something approaching objective "comparisons." We could of course decide how relevant those comparisons for each of us. Not sure a 120 pound woman at Vital is gonna get the wheel to flex like a Clyde. If you ride with a unique style, unique terrain, or just consider yourself too damn unique, it'll be up to you to compare directly.

    Let's start hammering on the editors/moderators of the MTBR, Pinkbike, Vital, and the Euro Mags to tackle this issue. I'm pretty damn impressed by the commitment demonstrated by John Schafer here at MTBR to compare POV cameras. Trying to run more than two wheels at once would unfortunately kick you out of the whole "bi-cycle" thing.

    Wide Rims?  Don't believe the hype...-go_pro.jpg

  31. #431
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    Not back to back, but one weekend I rode a DH trail in Santa Cruz (short loops) 5 times on a new Ibis Demo HD3 with Derbies and Minions. (I've been running minions on and off for more than a few years so I know the feel of them). Then went back a week or so later and rode it again multiple times on my 26" HD with Minion front and 28MM wide rims (23 internal)

    I definitely felt like the wider wheels/minions felt awesome until you get to the drift point, you know that feeling as you load up the tire into a decreasing turn, and as it gets tighter you go to load more and get the wheel to start pushing..... I didn't like the way it felt on the wide rims. Didn't give me confidence, it would just try and tuck the front end. As well the minion on rear felt like way too much tire and wouldn't break loose ever, didn't like that but thats kind of a different matter. Traction up and down was really good and the bike felt super planted. But really I want max performance where it really counts
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  32. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    Not back to back, but one weekend I rode a DH trail in Santa Cruz (short loops) 5 times on a new Ibis Demo HD3 with Derbies and Minions. (I've been running minions on and off for more than a few years so I know the feel of them). Then went back a week or so later and rode it again multiple times on my 26" HD with Minion front and 28MM wide rims (23 internal)

    I definitely felt like the wider wheels/minions felt awesome until you get to the drift point, you know that feeling as you load up the tire into a decreasing turn, and as it gets tighter you go to load more and get the wheel to start pushing..... I didn't like the way it felt on the wide rims. Didn't give me confidence, it would just try and tuck the front end. As well the minion on rear felt like way too much tire and wouldn't break loose ever, didn't like that but thats kind of a different matter. Traction up and down was really good and the bike felt super planted. But really I want max performance where it really counts
    So it just sounds like it was a little different than you are used to... when at the same time comparing a different wheel size altogether (the HD3 is 650b, right?).
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  33. #433
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    I'm kind of thinking that the reasons you stated about drift and lean angle are why most of us with wider rims are finding lower air pressures with wide rims compared to narrower rims feel better on the handling side of things. I think the tires need more squash with the lower air pressure to allow more lean angle and the lower pressure also creates a bigger footprint.
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  34. #434
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    I have some I9 Enduros w/ Flow rims and the SL Fatties both currently mounted with 2.35 Nobby Nics. I'll try to take some photos this weekend and air them up to the to identical pressure before hand for comparison sakes. I'm still playing around with the fatties to find the ideal tire to use with them.
    Function in disaster, finish in style.

  35. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalDonk View Post
    Let's start hammering on the editors/moderators of the MTBR, Pinkbike, Vital, and the Euro Mags to tackle this issue.
    Wide rims will evolve much like larger wheel sizes did, only more rapidly, and if you want to understand the market reaction, just read up on the 5 stages of grief. A fun exercise is to identify the stages of certain posters here.

    One things for sure, reviews by the people you mention won't tell us anything. Read what howell has to say instead. Tire designers actually work with this stuff. The market will accept wider rims and tires will evolve, just like they always have.

  36. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Wide rims will evolve much like larger wheel sizes did, only more rapidly...Tire designers actually work with this stuff. The market will accept wider rims and tires will evolve, just like they always have.
    Has anyone found information that indicates tires are evolving for these wider rims?

    Craigsj, when do you think the tire manufacturers and Pro DH race teams will get caught up with the wide rims (> 28mm internal width) movement?

  37. #437
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    28 internal isn't even a new thing, I had those 4 years ago.
    I like to fart when I'm in front of you on a climb

  38. #438
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    A tire's contact patch under load in dynamic operation does not resemble its unloaded static image.

    When applying steering input, the tire contact patch lags behind the vertical centerline of the wheel (pneumatic trail), and deviates to the inboard side of a turn. This deviation is called slip angle. The greater the slip angle, the more understeer is introduced. Understeer is mostly derived from the tire's tendency to continue in its original direction in deference to steering input. There are other factors involved, but for simplicity sake I'm focusing on the tire & rim role. For the same size tire & air pressure, increasing rim width shortens the contact patch and increases its width, contact area remains unchanged. The shorter the contact patch, the shorter the lag behind the wheel's vertical centerline. Relatively widening the rim, widens leverage for the tire sidewall, which stabilizes the tire laterally, and reduces contact patch deviation inboard to a turn, resulting in reduced slip angle. low slip angle inhibits understeer characteristics. Some riders in this thread consider understeer (drifting, push) to be a positive attribute. I prefer steering response and bike direction to closely match steering input. I find an appropriate width rim to perform as intended; not hype.

  39. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldranger View Post
    Has anyone found information that indicates tires are evolving for these wider rims?

    Craigsj, when do you think the tire manufacturers and Pro DH race teams will get caught up with the wide rims (> 28mm internal width) movement?
    Lol, just because a bunch of weekend warriors like a new product that makes them feel better, does not mean that everyone else is gonna get "caught up with the movement".
    friends don't let friends Fred

  40. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillDancer View Post
    A tire's contact patch under load in dynamic operation does not resemble its unloaded static image.

    When applying steering input, the tire contact patch lags behind the vertical centerline of the wheel (pneumatic trail), and deviates to the inboard side of a turn. This deviation is called slip angle. The greater the slip angle, the more understeer is introduced. Understeer is mostly derived from the tire's tendency to continue in its original direction in deference to steering input. There are other factors involved, but for simplicity sake I'm focusing on the tire & rim role. For the same size tire & air pressure, increasing rim width shortens the contact patch and increases its width, contact area remains unchanged. The shorter the contact patch, the shorter the lag behind the wheel's vertical centerline. Relatively widening the rim, widens leverage for the tire sidewall, which stabilizes the tire laterally, and reduces contact patch deviation inboard to a turn, resulting in reduced slip angle. low slip angle inhibits understeer characteristics. Some riders in this thread consider understeer (drifting, push) to be a positive attribute. I prefer steering response and bike direction to closely match steering input. I find an appropriate width rim to perform as intended; not hype.
    Slip angle and steering! Haha. That could be a quote from various car handling books or forums.

    MTBs are not cars. Problem #1 with your assumption that they act the same is that bicycles are leaned into turns at speed. Problem #2 is that MTB tires are designed to lean and have tread on the shoulder that only gets traction when the tire is leaned.

    When you flatten the tread face of a MTB tire beyond what the tire designer intended, the shoulder knobs cannot be used as designed. Additionally, the profile of the tire is no longer as rounded, which supports the ability to transition smoothly from left, center and right of the tire.

    This was all said many times in this thread, but no one else came in here quoting Skip Barber...

  41. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    Lol, just because a bunch of weekend warriors like a new product that makes them feel better, does not mean that everyone else is gonna get "caught up with the movement".
    Sounds like someone's afraid the bike daddy bought them isn't gonna be what the cool kids ride anymore. Lol.

  42. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Slip angle and steering! Haha. That could be a quote from various car handling books or forums.
    Agreed, but the most basic reason this does not apply you've overlooked.

    A wider rim on MTB does not make the contact patch wider and shorter. MTB tires contact the ground through their tread and the tread doesn't widen just because the rim does. If the tire were a smoothie on a smooth surface then things would be different, knobs change things considerably.

    People should go back to post #378 in this thread and read the bhowell quote. There's a lot of solid information there that is commonly misunderstood.

  43. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    ...A wider rim on MTB does not make the contact patch wider and shorter...People should go back to post #378 in this thread and read the bhowell quote...
    Your reading comprehension is poor. Originally Posted by bholwell "As the internal width of the rim increases, the contact patch will become wider and shorter"

    A lugged bike wheel does not tip-toe through a corner.


    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    ...no one else came in here quoting Skip Barber...
    Neither did I, those are my words.

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    Hilldancer and craigsj are probably the same person, trolls
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillDancer View Post
    Your reading comprehension is poor. Originally Posted by bholwell "As the internal width of the rim increases, the contact patch will become wider and shorter"
    A full quote is called for here, not a butchered one to mislead others:

    "As the internal width of the rim increases, the contact patch will become wider and shorter (assuming the inflation pressure and load is kept constant.) However if the shoulder lugs are already in contact with the ground, the contact patch cannot grow wider; instead it becomes more squared off, and the pressure distribution within the contact patch changes."

    This is not a demonstration of my reading comprehension either. bhowell and I agree because we both understand how it works, not because I've paraphrased what he has said.

    Quote Originally Posted by HillDancer View Post
    A lugged bike wheel does not tip-toe through a corner.
    Congratulations on your deepity. You've shown that you're both an idiot and an a-hole.

  46. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    A full quote is called for here, not a butchered one to mislead others:

    "As the internal width of the rim increases, the contact patch will become wider and shorter (assuming the inflation pressure and load is kept constant.) However if the shoulder lugs are already in contact with the ground, the contact patch cannot grow wider; instead it becomes more squared off, and the pressure distribution within the contact patch changes."

    This is not a demonstration of my reading comprehension either. bhowell and I agree because we both understand how it works, not because I've paraphrased what he has said.
    Ok, I'm in the market for new wheels and am looking at wider rims. Mostly because I my pressures go lower without rim strikes but get too squirmy. So I have been following this thread with interest even though I would describe my riding as all mountain as opposed to downhill.

    I understand that the claim is that contact patch doesn't get wider and shorter (relative to narrower rims) if the shoulder lugs are in contact with the ground. Does this mean both left and right shoulder lugs? In other words wheel is vertical? Or does it mean if any shoulder lugs (wheel is tilted)? Does the reference to the contact patch not growing wider mean relative to narrower rimmed tires or mean growing wider under the load of the turn? Just trying to understand. thanks.
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    I'm sure Craig can explain it to you in small words. He's the smartest person on MTBR. Now if folks would just stop quoting his responses, my ignore function would work properly.

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    I'm no engineer, but in my opinion, the picture mattwright999 just posted should be considered marketing hype.

    "The tire folds and can even jump out of the rim".

    Really? Wow, there is so much bad information. This is why I still fall back to: show me a pro race DH team that is going with wide rims >28mm internal width. Or show me a tire manufacturer that is redesigning tires intended for wider rims.

    I was thinking about it again...the fact the Specialized DH Race team is using the DT Swiss EX471 for racing instead of the wider, heavier rims is yet another solid indicator of what is important. They could choose any rim they wanted from the DT lineup, and they don't choose the widest one.

  50. #450
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    Specialized DH team choice is interesting in light of their enduro team riding 30mm internal width rims this last year.
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  51. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldranger View Post
    Really? Wow, there is so much bad information. This is why I still fall back to: show me a pro race DH team that is going with wide rims >28mm internal width. Or show me a tire manufacturer that is redesigning tires intended for wider rims.

    I was thinking about it again...the fact the Specialized DH Race team is using the DT Swiss EX471 for racing instead of the wider, heavier rims is yet another solid indicator of what is important. They could choose any rim they wanted from the DT lineup, and they don't choose the widest one.
    Funny that you mentioned Specialized, in theory at least, they have the capability to design their own tires to go with wider rims, should they choose to run them. Trek I'd think does as well since they run Bontrager, and both of them have the size, market clout, and vertical integration to go all in on wide rims & tires. For whatever reason, nether Trek nor Specialized has gotten on the wide rims & tires train yet.

    On the other hand it looks like the Ibis Enduro team will be on wide carbon wheels for the upcoming season. Guess we'll find out how well they work when Anne-Caroline Chausson & the rest of the team gets some races on them this year. If ACC cleans up this year then I we can say there might be something to them, if she and Tracy Moseley end up splitting the series again, I'd say it's inconclusive at best.

  52. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Funny that you mentioned Specialized, in theory at least, they have the capability to design their own tires to go with wider rims, should they choose to run them. Trek I'd think does as well since they run Bontrager, and both of them have the size, market clout, and vertical integration to go all in on wide rims & tires. For whatever reason, nether Trek nor Specialized has gotten on the wide rims & tires train yet.

    On the other hand it looks like the Ibis Enduro team will be on wide carbon wheels for the upcoming season. Guess we'll find out how well they work when Anne-Caroline Chausson & the rest of the team gets some races on them this year. If ACC cleans up this year then I we can say there might be something to them, if she and Tracy Moseley end up splitting the series again, I'd say it's inconclusive at best.
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  53. #453
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    Have you ever ridden a pro rider's bike? Most of them would be completely foreign to an average joe like me and, presumably, most MTBR users.

    Which is a roundabout way of saying I don't base any cycling parts decisions on what professional teams are running. But I still run skinny-ish rims, too, so what do I know.

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    Girl Fight!!

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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    I'd say settle down a bit. We're only talking about wheels and rim width! Folks also need to ride all these wheels with wider rims before they make such strong statements for or against. I've got wheels with rim widths from 21-40mm and they all have a place in mountain biking. I'm not saying ditch your skinnier rims but I've also found that the wide rims have great purpose.

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  56. #456
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    Wow I hope I wasn't a buzz kill here!!😬
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  57. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by manitou2200 View Post
    Wow I hope I wasn't a buzz kill here!!😬
    That's what happens here when rational thinking and reasoning are introduced!
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  58. #458
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by blcman View Post
    That's what happens here when rational thinking and reasoning are introduced!
    Haha! There was some very good discussion going on in this thread but also some butt hurt pissing matches which are never good!

    I hope all those carrying on here can engage in constructive discussion. I know the op was referencing downhill but most of it also applies to all mountain riding which is a much larger group of riders.
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    I might have to see how my Conti Trail King 29 x 2.4 look on a 15mm internal vs the P35s.

  60. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattwright999 View Post
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    I'm with old ranger on this one - the picture above is drawn and is typical of an ad agencies drawing - competing red and green ( good versus bad)is a dead giveaway it's for marketing purposes. It may or may not be accurate, but it's source is biased and designed to tell a story in favour of wide.

    That picture therefore is evidence for the "hype" posited at the start of the thread.

  61. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by manitou2200 View Post
    I'd say settle down a bit. We're only talking about wheels and rim width! Folks also need to ride all these wheels with wider rims before they make such strong statements for or against. I've got wheels with rim widths from 21-40mm and they all have a place in mountain biking. I'm not saying ditch your skinnier rims but I've also found that the wide rims have great purpose.

    Girl fights are fun too though!!
    I get what you are are saying, but first hand experience isn't all it's cracked up to be. People will defend what they have bought till the ends of the earth, and especially if they seem to know a vendor. : D

    No idea how to test them empirically and reliably.

    I think I'm a moderate on this one - I've read all I can find, and have been swayed by the professional design engineers on the subject. I think places like pinkbike are far from neutral ( or thoughtful) - though to be fair, I've seen behind the scenes in public relations versus journalism, and regrettably the smarter people are driving the marketing and can pull the wool over the eyes of a journalist with remarkable ease.

    Anyway, I think there is an advantage to wider rims upto around 25mm

  62. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post
    I get what you are are saying, but first hand experience isn't all it's cracked up to be. People will defend what they have bought till the ends of the earth, and especially if they seem to know a vendor. : D

    No idea how to test them empirically and reliably.

    I think I'm a moderate on this one - I've read all I can find, and have been swayed by the professional design engineers on the subject. I think places like pinkbike are far from neutral ( or thoughtful) - though to be fair, I've seen behind the scenes in public relations versus journalism, and regrettably the smarter people are driving the marketing and can pull the wool over the eyes of a journalist with remarkable ease.

    Anyway, I think there is an advantage to wider rims upto around 25mm
    Why do you call the limit at 25mm? Is that due to current tire design? Or something inherent in the width of the rim itself? I am asking because I am in the market for some new wheels and am trying to decide between 25mm and 30mm. I am more of an AM rider than DH, but I push speed through some steep, fast, chunky, singletrack. I am also not a racer and am relatively new to MTB (1.5 years riding) so I am not sure that at my skill level I would necessarily be able to tell the difference, At the same time, I don't want to get something that is actually going to decrease performance, so I have been following (most) of this debate with interest.

    From what I can glean most of those favoring the not so wide rims (28mm and less?) do so because of the adverse affect on the tire profile that the wider rims have on high speed cornering performance. This seems to be an issue for people who are going DH speeds and happens because the tread closes up as the rim becomes wider changing the performance of the tire. Most find this change negative. A few positive, ay least when considering the ability to run lower pressures without tire squirm.

    I noticed that at EWS Whistler at least, and I think for the whole series, the Specialized riders were on the 30mm interior Traverse Fatties and were on standard Slaughter and Butchers. Specialized's data from the bikeradar review indicates that 30mm interior rims have around 18-20% less deflection than a 23mm int rim and they state that they think the sweet spot right now in terms of wheel weight vs rim width is 30mm.

    I guess I am wondering how application specific rim width is right now? Perhaps for those of us not going DH race speeds on the descents, a 30mm interior rim is perfectly fine, stabilizing the tire at lower PSI, allowing more traction through that PSI while avoiding squirm while at DH speeds the change in tire profile combined with the more aggressive lean angles is actually more detrimental to performance than any traction/rolling benefit gained while not cornering super aggressively.

    Just trying put together a summary overview of this thread for myself.
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  63. #463
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    More information from a late 2014 race on one of the most extreme downhill tracks ever conceived: Redbull Hardline.

    Red Bull Hardline Dan Atherton

    I put this in here so those readers that may not know how dramatically different Downhill racing is from XC or Enduro can get a glimpse of where the DH sport is heading. This is an extreme event for 10 of the top riders in the world.

    2.4 - 2.5 width tires and conventional, aluminum DH rims seem to be the prevalent choice at a venue where it seemed 'anything goes'. The winner was riding on Easton Havoc rims, and the track builders were riding narrow, cut mud spike tires in dry, loose conditions. (Conti Mud King 2.4)

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    i think 27mm is the limit. its wider, but not WIDE its been used by DT swiss for some time now, and on a 2.5 or 2.4 inch tire it'd still be perfectly useable for DH and FR. i think 25mm is good for any application.

    But idc too much. ride whatever you want to ride, you guys need to stop bickering. some people want to buy the $3,000 carbon wide rims, and others of us will settle with 1,100 dollar alloy rims that are just as strong, just as capable, and not as wide, but a little heavier.

  65. #465
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    You guys need to keep bickering. In fact kick some ass while you're at it!!

  66. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPunchCholla View Post
    Why do you call the limit at 25mm? Is that due to current tire design? Or something inherent in the width of the rim itself? f.
    Yep, the 2 tyre designers on these forums talk about designed rim size and not moving too far away from that. Second, the manufacturers who have the ability and testing facilities aren't screaming off into 30mm widths. Advances in width have been incremental over the last couple of years, jumping straight up to 30 from 23 (current flows) seems a big leap of faith.

  67. #467
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    I can feel the added support of the wider 30mm rims of my Fatties on the high volume 2.35+ size tires. As compared to my I9 Enduro/ Flow 25mm wide rim wheels there isn't any loss in cornering or ability to lean the bike in the turns.

    I feel that for tires under 2.3"/ high volume casings type tires that the gains would not be there and for smaller casing tires it might be detrimental to the handling. I think it's very much tire size related and especially tire volume. Like comparing gen 1 High Roller 2.35 to a Hans Damf or 2.4 Ardent or 2.4 trail King. There is no comparison in casing volume or tread width, the HR while a good tire is no where near as big as the others.

    On the other hand install a Surley Knard 3.0 on a 24/26mm wide rim and see how that performs. It's not happening that's for sure!

    It's a matter of choice and matching tires and wheels. I get pro deals from pretty much all the manufactures so I'm able to try stuff out and see what I like. I sell off stuff I don't like and I'm not selling my SL Fatties. I'm also not selling my Flow rim Enduros either. I'll set them up for different conditions and riding types. I'm going to put heavier weight tires on my Enduros that I'll use when shuttling runs and use the lighter fat tires on the Fatties.

  68. #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post
    Yep, the 2 tyre designers on these forums talk about designed rim size and not moving too far away from that. Second, the manufacturers who have the ability and testing facilities aren't screaming off into 30mm widths. Advances in width have been incremental over the last couple of years, jumping straight up to 30 from 23 (current flows) seems a big leap of faith.
    Advances in width haven't been incremental, they've been dramatic, and "jumping straight up" wouldn't be a "big leap of faith", it would be naive. The language you use suggests manufacturers are worried about going too far; that's not what's happening here.

    There's a whole lot more at play than just the objective facts of how a rim works yet these things are conveniently ignored by those who don't want their narratives spoiled. Designers could optimize for wider rims but they'd like a large market of wide rim riders to sell to first. We ride bicycles, not rims.

    If 80% of the market was 30+mm rims you can bet that tires would be designed to work well on them and people would laugh at narrow-rim riders. That's not a statement of superiority, it's just how things are. This is the case today with narrow rims and it has, until recently, been the case for juvenile wheel sizes. Progress isn't instantaneous.

    The fact is, racers (who drive a large portion of the cycling market) will not leave performance on the table once it's staring them in the face. The problem with wider rims is that they are making tires work better than intended and that actually causes problems in certain cases. Racing will adapt. New technologies are usually NOT greeted with optimized complimentary technologies out of the gate. It takes time.

  69. #469
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    Sorry, Craig, I haven't been clear. When I say incremental, I'm not including small niche manufacturers in particular over the near term, but the big guys who have moved from 19 then to 21 and out to 23 over the last 4 years or so.

    I agree we buy bikes and don't think manufacturers are being conservative because of worry, it's more likely simply engineer driven - there are plenty of smart people working in industrial design, frankly, a whole lot smarter and better trained than a few journalists that ride bikes.

    That after all is what the original "hype" question is what it's all about - lots of emotional words and unprovable concepts

  70. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post
    Sorry, Craig, I haven't been clear. When I say incremental, I'm not including small niche manufacturers in particular over the near term, but the big guys who have moved from 19 then to 21 and out to 23 over the last 4 years or so.
    Ah, yes that's true.

    I find it very disappointing how seldom advances come from larger manufacturers.

  71. #471
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    I'm really wondering if and when tire manufacturers are going to assume that there are going to be enough wide rim owners to buy wide rim optimized tires. Sounds like WTB may already be on that track given their open discussion on Pinkbike but I'm wondering if and when Maxxis and Schwalbe may go down that road.

    I always find Country-specific tax and duty situations to be really interesting. I'm seeing more and more 30+ internal rims used in the U.S. and Canada, presumably because they're easier to get over her with Ibis, Derby, NOX, etc. It seems like 90% of European and "Commonwealth" (Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, etc.) riders are rolling around on narrow Euro produced products given the tax and duty situation. They're just so much cheaper. Anybody can order Light Bicycle rims or bring some Derbies over but few seem to want to fight their way through customs and pay those duties. The wide rims available at lower costs in the U.S./Canada are at a large economic disadvantage in Europe.

    The U.S. and Canada are huge markets but I think a Euro wide rim champion (in addition to Syntace) may be needed before tire companies decide to invest in the effort to design wide-specific tires.

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    My LBS is lacing up a set of Derby's for me, going from Crest's the difference should be evident if it's tangible.

    I have high hopes, but I ride trails, not a dedicated downhiller. I leaned forward in my seat when the discussion started toward differences in rim width exhibiting attributes that suggest, as most things mountain bike, it can be either a benefit or a detriment depending on rider and intended use.

  73. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalDonk View Post
    I'm really wondering if and when tire manufacturers are going to assume that there are going to be enough wide rim owners to buy wide rim optimized tires. Sounds like WTB may already be on that track given their open discussion on Pinkbike but I'm wondering if and when Maxxis and Schwalbe may go down that road.
    .
    Be careful with wtb. Their tyres are their own system and mate well with wtb rims with their rubber rim strip, but don't play well with stans rim and rim strip - burp far easier than say schwalbe on stans.

  74. #474
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    I agree with Craig's statement, it takes a critical mass to progress and make changes. Tire manufacturers are not going to invest in design and tooling to make tires for rims that are just a relatively small portion of the market.

    I do believe that some of the bigger players will be making moves into this wider rim trend and tires will eventually follow. Specialized is not exactly a small company in the bike biz. You can bet if they see enough success with their Fatties then the tires for them will come as well as more DH specific rims and tires.

    I'll also add to this discussion that larger tires also equate to additional clearance on forks and bike frames. You can't change one thing without impacting another. We do ride bikes, they're not really that complex but the components need to be compatible to make the whole bike work.

    What pharmaboy says is true regarding wtb tires and Stan's rims. They really don't fit on Stans rims at all! WTB does not even recommend the combination of their tires on Stans rims.
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    Quick Update: I9 did not respond (in any way) to the question I posed to them via their website. So I have nothing to report back.

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    My camber evo came equiped with Fattie ALs and I rode it one time that way before switching to my normal wheels - roval control carbons. I do feel the wider profile rim with Purgatorys front and rear did have a slight handling advantage over the narrow carbon controls. A buddy of mine who comes from the MX world, who is extremely in tune with his set ups, just purchased a pair of roval fattie carbon traverse wheels. He loves them. He also uses Purgatory tires on the front and we measured his tire profile and mine back to back. His tires were around 2.3mms wider than mine, matted, tubeless running his desired preasure (23psi). I typically run 24-25psi on mine.

    I think there is an ever so slight advantage to the fatties, but it isn't anything like going from a 2.0 tire to a 2.3. Having said that, as mentioned above, with advances in tire designs, I can only see the advantages in the handling department only getting better. I don't think they are going to be a manadatory upgrade for everyone, but for those who like to push the edge, espescially pointed down, I could see it.

    Just my opinion.

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  77. #477
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    I find it very disappointing how seldom advances come from larger manufacturers.
    I agree, though I also don't find it surprising. The bigger the mfr, the more the beureaucratic/administrative momentum is built into each move.
    Now throwing money to an "edgy" sub-brand or "development" entity could be interesting, but most shareholders are looking for quarterly dividends and couldn't care less about anything other than performance.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  78. #478
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    Not to hijack the OP's thread, but the majority of this thread has not dealt with downhill riding anyway. Just read all 20 pages of this thread trying to get some insight.
    Question for the one or two folks who posted that they ride the roval traverse fattie wheels in this thread: what tires have you tried with his wheel set and which ones worked the best in your opinion?
    Planning to put a wheelset with some wider rims on my 2012 specialized S works epic with longer travel after market fork, that is used for trail riding/AM rather then cross country. Have to deal with very slippery wet roots/rocks commonly where I ride, which require running lower pressures for traction. Would like to get rid of the tire squirm and gain better traction in corners in the wet with fatter rims.
    Presently running stock roval control sl wheelset w/ 21mm ID W/ Nobby Nic 2.35's fr & back, 17 & 19 psi, and no, for all the flamers in this forum (more than the usual bunch of immature people in here), I have never broken a rim, in spite of riding faster than most of the other people in our area.
    Thanks for your help.

  79. #479
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    i rode the Roval traverse fatties with a butcher control up front and slaughter in back. it didn't feel too blocked off, could still turn just fine with 650b

  80. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    I agree, though I also don't find it surprising. The bigger the mfr, the more the beureaucratic/administrative momentum is built into each move.
    Now throwing money to an "edgy" sub-brand or "development" entity could be interesting, but most shareholders are looking for quarterly dividends and couldn't care less about anything other than performance.
    So what you are saying is that the people with the capacity and financial security to R&D stuff prefer to exploit those who don't to test the market and for increased corporate gain?

  81. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmcdev1 View Post
    Not to hijack the OP's thread, but...
    http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-componen...es-922275.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmcdev1 View Post
    Not to hijack the OP's thread, but the majority of this thread has not dealt with downhill riding anyway. Just read all 20 pages of this thread trying to get some insight.
    Question for the one or two folks who posted that they ride the roval traverse fattie wheels in this thread: what tires have you tried with his wheel set and which ones worked the best in your opinion?
    Planning to put a wheelset with some wider rims on my 2012 specialized S works epic with longer travel after market fork, that is used for trail riding/AM rather then cross country. Have to deal with very slippery wet roots/rocks commonly where I ride, which require running lower pressures for traction. Would like to get rid of the tire squirm and gain better traction in corners in the wet with fatter rims.
    Presently running stock roval control sl wheelset w/ 21mm ID W/ Nobby Nic 2.35's fr & back, 17 & 19 psi, and no, for all the flamers in this forum (more than the usual bunch of immature people in here), I have never broken a rim, in spite of riding faster than most of the other people in our area.
    Thanks for your help.
    I just got some Derby DH rims on my Ibis. I'm using butcher and slaughter for my tires and they are incredible in regards to traction. I can feel when the breaking point is though a lot sooner but it doesn't bother me. I live in Washington so I deal with a lot of slippery wet terrain. I have heard that slaughter is not very good for wet... I don't have enough experience using different tires. It's been working great for me!
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    Thanks for the link to that thread, old ranger. Wasn't aware of it.
    I will also get a chance to try the butcher and slaughter on this wheel set when I borrowed my friends wheels soon. Thanks for the feedback guys.

  84. #484
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    I built a front Dually 45mm rimmed wheel to try 29+ for my rigid, was trying to figure what I'd run on the rear since it won't take a 29+, so widest would be a 29er 2.4" and wasn't sure if a Dually45 for that size tyre would be overkill or a 35mm rim would be enough. Decided to do some experimenting and threw a 2.25" Smorgasbord on the wheel, it's casing grew by 4mm (as wide as the 2.4" Chunky Monkey on an i25 rim). Rode it and couldn't believe the change in the tyre, no rolling or squirming, just turn or lean the bike into the corner and you had solid traction (I tried this tyre on the front once, did not like it).

    Decided to pull that tyre off and mount a 2.4" Chunky Monkey, it's casing grew about 3.5mm and profile flattened out a bit, will be riding it tomorrow, but I think it'll grip insane. These two tyres IMHO are a good choice as on "normal <25mm internal rims, the tread is quite round and it squares off just a bit on the 45mm rims making the edge knobs just that bit easier to get too without extreme lean angles.

    Pics attached of the Chunky Monkey on Dually45 and WTB i25, so that's an internal width difference of 14mm. Needless to say, I'm no pro anything, I absolutely love what the wider rim has done to how the tyre works and how solid it now is at low pressures without squirm, just like when I put my first set of decent "Fig" rims on my car coming from the standard factory rims, night and day difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcdev1 View Post
    Not to hijack the OP's thread, but the majority of this thread has not dealt with downhill riding anyway. Just read all 20 pages of this thread trying to get some insight.
    Question for the one or two folks who posted that they ride the roval traverse fattie wheels in this thread: what tires have you tried with his wheel set and which ones worked the best in your opinion?...... Thanks for your help.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Wide Rims?  Don't believe the hype...-dscn1655_web.jpg  

    Wide Rims?  Don't believe the hype...-dscn1653_web.jpg  

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  85. #485
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    Just for some reference here; Mitch Ropelato is running the Roval Traverse SL Fatties on his Specialized Enduro 29r pro enduro bike as was stated earlier in this thread. I saw a video of his enduro bike on Vital MTB and he runs the Butcher and Slaughter tires on the SL Fatties. He also used the same Enduro 29 bike to race the Taxco Urban DH race with the SL Fatties and same tires above. There are at least 4 riders that I know of on the pro enduro circuit racing on these wide carbon wheels so it looks to be more than just hype. Here's a link to Kelly McGarry's Taxco DH run to give you and idea of what Ropelato ran these wheels and tires down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sITW5tr7KQg

  86. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    I built a front Dually 45mm rimmed wheel to try 29+ for my rigid, was trying to figure what I'd run on the rear since it won't take a 29+, so widest would be a 29er 2.4" and wasn't sure if a Dually45 for that size tyre would be overkill or a 35mm rim would be enough. Decided to do some experimenting and threw a 2.25" Smorgasbord on the wheel, it's casing grew by 4mm (as wide as the 2.4" Chunky Monkey on an i25 rim). Rode it and couldn't believe the change in the tyre, no rolling or squirming, just turn or lean the bike into the corner and you had solid traction (I tried this tyre on the front once, did not like it).

    Decided to pull that tyre off and mount a 2.4" Chunky Monkey, it's casing grew about 3.5mm and profile flattened out a bit, will be riding it tomorrow, but I think it'll grip insane. These two tyres IMHO are a good choice as on "normal <25mm internal rims, the tread is quite round and it squares off just a bit on the 45mm rims making the edge knobs just that bit easier to get too without extreme lean angles.

    Pics attached of the Chunky Monkey on Dually45 and WTB i25, so that's an internal width difference of 14mm. Needless to say, I'm no pro anything, I absolutely love what the wider rim has done to how the tyre works and how solid it now is at low pressures without squirm, just like when I put my first set of decent "Fig" rims on my car coming from the standard factory rims, night and day difference.
    Hmm i'd like to see that same tire mounted on an Arch EX for comparison.
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    I won't bring anything scientific to the discussion just my own experience.

    I put on some Roval Fattie Carbons on my E29. Previously I had been running 23mm iWidth light-bicycle rims. These wheels arrived in January after ordering them in August. I put them on and actually "forgot" about them until I cranked up the season a few weeks ago. So I had no expectations when I headed out as opposed to the normal "Hey I bought this expensive thing let's see if I can tell the difference".
    I used the same tires, Butcher 2.3 front and Purgatory 2.3 back, normal pressure (26psi).

    I remember thinking "wow, really hero dirt today", and "man I'm getting nice grip in the corners" several times. It was only when I got home that I remembered I had a brand new "wide" wheelset on the bike.

    So for kind of a blind test, I felt the wheels made a noticeable improvement in cornering grip or at least cornering confidence. I had been running my previous setup all summer/fall going riding every weekend and more so I was very familiar with how the last setup felt.

    Plus, they make the tires look really burly so that's cool.

  88. #488
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    Is anyone REALLY hyping wider rims??

    Wide Rims?  Don't believe the hype...-wider.jpg

    Nevermind.....carry on......

  89. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhxChem View Post
    Is anyone REALLY hyping wider rims??

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Nevermind.....carry on......
    If you think that's hype you should look up the definition of the word.

    Here are a few from this site:
    2. Exaggerated or extravagant claims made especially in advertising or promotional material...
    3. An advertising or promotional ploy...
    4. Something deliberately misleading; a deception: ... To publicize or promote, especially by extravagant, inflated, or misleading claims...

    The example you provide meets none of these definitions. Not all ads are hype, this one is remarkably understated.

  90. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    If you think that's hype you should look up the definition of the word.

    Here are a few from this site:
    2. Exaggerated or extravagant claims made especially in advertising or promotional material...
    3. An advertising or promotional ploy...
    4. Something deliberately misleading; a deception: ... To publicize or promote, especially by extravagant, inflated, or misleading claims...

    The example you provide meets none of these definitions. Not all ads are hype, this one is remarkably understated.
    Except for the picture. Most people can't do that on a mountain bike. And the ad might suggest that you can in an indirect or subliminal way, if you buy their wide rims.

  91. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Except for the picture. Most people can't do that on a mountain bike. And the ad might suggest that you can in an indirect or subliminal way, if you buy their wide rims.

    Lmao, and kids belief they can be superman. Wth is the difference? Oh wait there isn't one. Pretty much no one except little kids and those with no education beyond elementary school would "think the rims makes them able to do that"

  92. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    Lmao, and kids belief they can be superman. Wth is the difference? Oh wait there isn't one. Pretty much no one except little kids and those with no education beyond elementary school would "think the rims makes them able to do that"
    You can laugh all you want, but subliminal advertising works on the subconscious mind and is an effective marketing tool.

  93. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    You can laugh all you want, but subliminal advertising works on the subconscious mind and is an effective marketing tool.
    Agreed
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  94. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    You can laugh all you want, but subliminal advertising works on the subconscious mind and is an effective marketing tool.
    But subliminal advertising is not hype. The suggestion was that this ad was an example of hype. It's just an example of plain old advertising.

  95. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    But subliminal advertising is not hype. The suggestion was that this ad was an example of hype. It's just an example of plain old advertising.
    It can be hype, please see post number 490.

  96. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    But subliminal advertising is not hype. The suggestion was that this ad was an example of hype. It's just an example of plain old advertising.
    Most advertising is hype. They make claims they can't back up. "Wider profile" is probably the only statement there that is unambiguous and can be backed up, the rest is puffery

  97. #497
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    It's a pretty good ad. And, it's not an all out lie like some ads you see.

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    "No actually if you look at it from a certain angle it's TOTALLY UNHYPED."

    Why the f*ck is this argument even happening?

  99. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    It can be hype, please see post number 490.
    I saw post 490. Nowhere in the picture do they suggest you can ride like that if you had wider rims. If they did then that would be hype, instead it's merely advertising. There's a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post
    Most advertising is hype. They make claims they can't back up. "Wider profile" is probably the only statement there that is unambiguous and can be backed up, the rest is puffery
    No, most advertising is not hype. Hype means something specific.

    Now, if you think "more support, more traction, more control" are exaggerated or extravagant claims then you may claim hype...but you will lose that argument. Wider rims are used across many industries for just these reasons. It's a circular argument and those who reject these basic claims are deniers, nothing more.

  100. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    I saw post 490. Nowhere in the picture do they suggest you can ride like that if you had wider rims. If they did then that would be hype, instead it's merely advertising. There's a difference.


    No, most advertising is not hype. Hype means something specific.

    Now, if you think "more support, more traction, more control" are exaggerated or extravagant claims then you may claim hype...but you will lose that argument. Wider rims are used across many industries for just these reasons. It's a circular argument and those who reject these basic claims are deniers, nothing more.
    Haha, I guess you didn't understand what we were talking about when we were talking about subliminal advertising. That's a type of subliminal advertising.

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