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  1. #201
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    2.4 inch wide tires have a width of 61mm. So if you ran them on a 40-41mm external rim you would have about 10mm on each side outside the rim wall....

    I'd run that set up! But I like it better with a 2.5 inch tire

    However if you try to run a 2.3 inch tire that is 58.42mm wide on a 40-41mm external width rim - I see some issue like having only 5mm of rubber outside the rim wall. Another issue is none of the tire manufacturers make tires to go on these width rims (most are designed around a 23mm internal width) so your contact patch is wider when the bike is perpendicular to the ground but once you enter a flat corner you actually going to have less of a contact patch because it's sooooo squared off.

    So can wide rim get tooooo wide. In my opinion yes, because the rims and tires have to be made for one another. Kinda like pees and carrots. ;-)

  2. #202
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    Sound like great set ups!
    The bike I was referring to at the shop had 2.3 inch Maxxis Minions on the new 41mm ibis rims. Looked like a low rider Impala with the wrong size tires on it.
    From the ibis website you can set up the HD3 with up to 2.4 tires. Fyi that should be the minimum if you going to run 41mm external width rims

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by ENSANE View Post
    Sound like great set ups!
    The bike I was referring to at the shop had 2.3 inch Maxxis Minions on the new 41mm ibis rims. Looked like a low rider Impala with the wrong size tires on it.
    From the ibis website you can set up the HD3 with up to 2.4 tires. Fyi that should be the minimum if you going to run 41mm external width rims
    Maxxis seem to always run narrow. I run a 2.4Nobby Nic front and a 2.3 Spec Clutch in back on blunt35's(35outside 30inside) with no issue's at all. I have a 2.5 Minion DHF here its the same size as the 2.3 Clutch if not smaller.
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  4. #204
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    All I can tell you is, I rode a Butcher with 40mm Derby rims. It felt like I was ridding my dirt bike, in the way I could lean on the tires and the stability they give you, even when not leaning on them. It's pretty amazing. Wait till someone starts making tires specifically for these wide rims. Then your going to see something out of this world. I've heard a couple people say that these wide rims are game changers. They are absolutely right. But, as with any big change, it will take time to work itself out and be accepted, just like disc brakes were.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by ENSANE View Post
    So can wide rim get tooooo wide. In my opinion yes, because the rims and tires have to be made for one another. Kinda like pees and carrots. ;-)
    I coudn't agree more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    ...Wait till someone starts making tires specifically for these wide rims...
    This is what we need.

    My Syntace W35 wheels squared off my 2.4" conti's too much, resulting in a loss of traction on corner entry compared to running them on narrower rims. You could really feel them come up on the corner knobs as you tipped it in and on hardpack with loose gravel over the top this was not ideal.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigWorld View Post
    I coudn't agree more.



    This is what we need.

    My Syntace W35 wheels squared off my 2.4" conti's too much, resulting in a loss of traction on corner entry compared to running them on narrower rims. You could really feel them come up on the corner knobs as you tipped it in and on hardpack with loose gravel over the top this was not ideal.

    What pressures were u running? The cool thing when u run big tires with lower pressures on wide rims is the tire conforms to the trail. But if u r running to high pressures then they won't conform to the trail and they will wash out. I'm running 20-22 up front and 25-28 in the rear and I get awesome traction when railing turns.
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  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigWorld View Post
    I coudn't agree more.



    This is what we need.

    My Syntace W35 wheels squared off my 2.4" conti's too much, resulting in a loss of traction on corner entry compared to running them on narrower rims. You could really feel them come up on the corner knobs as you tipped it in and on hardpack with loose gravel over the top this was not ideal.
    I don't know what the Butcher had for tires. I plan on going back to WTB Mutano Race tires in 2.4". They're getting a little outdated, but I've always liked them. I think they'll work good with wide rims and they are easy to setup tubeless.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by ENSANE View Post
    Sound like great set ups!
    The bike I was referring to at the shop had 2.3 inch Maxxis Minions on the new 41mm ibis rims. Looked like a low rider Impala with the wrong size tires on it.
    From the ibis website you can set up the HD3 with up to 2.4 tires. Fyi that should be the minimum if you going to run 41mm external width rims
    Have you actually ridden wide rims with smaller tires? I regularly run 2.25 tires on the rear of my bike without issue on Derby 40 mm wide rims. Several of my friends to as well and again, no issues.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    You both couldn't be any more wrong. You don't "take more hits on rocky trails" because you have more volume. It's just the opposite. Because there is more volume with a wide rim, there is more cushion. And because there is more volume, you can run lower pressures and have a larger contact patch with more traction for turning, braking and acceleration. Also, tires don't roll or burp in hard corners on a wide rim like they do on a skinny rim. And if your talking about rocks hitting the sidewalls of the rim, that's a non issue. I've had plenty hit the side wall of my carbon rims with no issues. Once you try wide carbon rims, you'll. never go back. They are that good.
    Bet stiffness feels good but they're expensive, I never tried wide carbon just aluminum. I like more cushion but ANY rim will get smashed if you run too low pressure..are you saying you haven't smashed up a rim yet? And yes the finish on my wider rims were more dinged up compared to rims under @ 25mm. I'm not saying it would kill a thin rim but it is a pretty damn loud hit when a good sized rock kicks up.

    Quote Originally Posted by TigWorld View Post
    I coudn't agree more.

    Originally Posted by ENSANE View Post
    So can wide rim get tooooo wide. In my opinion yes, because the rims and tires have to be made for one another. Kinda like pees and carrots. ;-)
    I coudn't agree more.

    Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    ...Wait till someone starts making tires specifically for these wide rims...
    This is what we need.

    My Syntace W35 wheels squared off my 2.4" conti's too much, resulting in a loss of traction on corner entry compared to running them on narrower rims. You could really feel them come up on the corner knobs as you tipped it in and on hardpack with loose gravel over the top this was not ideal.



    This is what we need.

    My Syntace W35 wheels squared off my 2.4" conti's too much, resulting in a loss of traction on corner entry compared to running them on narrower rims. You could really feel them come up on the corner knobs as you tipped it in and on hardpack with loose gravel over the top this was not ideal.
    Interesting, I also notice some side knobs stick out more and some more squared off, it totally affects when they start to bite

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    What pressures were u running?
    I normally run 20-22 on the front with 21mm inner width rims. On the W35's I could only go 2psi lower before squirm was a major problem. So adding 7mm in rim width really only gave me a 2psi drop.

    Note: Even though I use a Schwalbe digital pressure gauge, I can't say how accurate it is in absolute terms, so my 20 psi might be your 25 psi etc. What I do know from always using the same pressure gauge is what the relative differences in pressures are as I experiment with tyre setups.

  11. #211
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    I ran 23mm internal wheels. Yes, they were a bit heavy but rolled just fine. However, I went back to 19mm internal wheels, weighing almost a full pound less....and I couldn't be happier.
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  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    Originally Posted by Deerhill
    I find rims over @23-25mm internal width start to take a heck of a lot more hits on rocky trails (from the volume and also dings to the finish)




    You both couldn't be any more wrong. You don't "take more hits on rocky trails" because you have more volume. It's just the opposite. Because there is more volume with a wide rim, there is more cushion. And because there is more volume, you can run lower pressures and have a larger contact patch with more traction for turning, braking and acceleration. Also, tires don't roll or burp in hard corners on a wide rim like they do on a skinny rim. And if your talking about rocks hitting the sidewalls of the rim, that's a non issue. I've had plenty hit the side wall of my carbon rims with no issues. Once you try wide carbon rims, you'll. never go back. They are that good.
    Hi, sorry to be the correction nazi, but there is no difference in volume, period. Volume is a question of psi, tyre size and tyre elasticity. There is a difference in the shape of the tyre.

    Think of this logically while picturing the tyre mounted in cross section. It is quite acceptable to say the tyre should burp less because more force at the bead is going out wards towards the rim and less outwards.

    You can see the differing shapes in above posts, and certainly a wider rim causes a flatter less tall tyre. It is completely logical that this then provides less distance from the outside of the tyre (top centre) to the rim, making it entirely conceivable that you would indeed get more rock strikes on the rim if running the same pressure - but by no means certain.

    If you change the shape of a tyre with rim width you will alter the way that tyre reacts to various forces. There is no free lunch, so advantages will be balanced by disadvantages - in this case wider must mean less tall.

    More importantly, most posts on this thread talk about lack of squirm allowing the use of a couple of psi less - this will lead to more likely rock strikes - you simply can't avoid the physics of that without changing the tyre size

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    Bet stiffness feels good but they're expensive, I never tried wide carbon just aluminum. I like more cushion but ANY rim will get smashed if you run too low pressure..are you saying you haven't smashed up a rim yet? And yes the finish on my wider rims were more dinged up compared to rims under @ 25mm. I'm not saying it would kill a thin rim but it is a pretty damn loud hit when a good sized rock kicks up.



    Interesting, I also notice some side knobs stick out more and some more squared off, it totally affects when they start to bite
    I know that Derby has sold over 1,000 rims. As of not long ago, I know there has not been a single rim failure.

  14. #214
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    My rims are very scarred up but rock solid. I have run the light weight rim in the rear for over a year and have been very pleased.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    I know that Derby has sold over 1,000 rims. As of not long ago, I know there has not been a single rim failure.
    Are those 26" rims? sounds like a job well done on those derby rims

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    Are those 26" rims? sounds like a job well done on those derby rims
    He sells all three sizes. Mostly the 29" and 27.5".

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post
    Hi, sorry to be the correction nazi, but there is no difference in volume, period. Volume is a question of psi, tyre size and tyre elasticity. There is a difference in the shape of the tyre.

    Think of this logically while picturing the tyre mounted in cross section. It is quite acceptable to say the tyre should burp less because more force at the bead is going out wards towards the rim and less outwards.

    You can see the differing shapes in above posts, and certainly a wider rim causes a flatter less tall tyre. It is completely logical that this then provides less distance from the outside of the tyre (top centre) to the rim, making it entirely conceivable that you would indeed get more rock strikes on the rim if running the same pressure - but by no means certain.

    If you change the shape of a tyre with rim width you will alter the way that tyre reacts to various forces. There is no free lunch, so advantages will be balanced by disadvantages - in this case wider must mean less tall.

    More importantly, most posts on this thread talk about lack of squirm allowing the use of a couple of psi less - this will lead to more likely rock strikes - you simply can't avoid the physics of that without changing the tyre size


    Wow, where do I even begin? U need to go back to the lab bro, u have no idea what u r talking about. And judging from your comments, u have also never ridden wide carbon rims. There IS more volume with a wide rim because it allows the tire to open up wider at the beads thus the tire and rim holds a larger volume of air. The tire IS taller with a wider rim because the tire sidewall is more straight up and down, (which also leads to more sidewall support and less squirming) compaired to a skinny rim which is more angled from the side of the tread to the bead, (also leading to squirming and burps). It's simple math man, draw a 2"angled line and a 2" straight verticle line and make the bottom of both start from the same point. Surprise! the straight verticle line IS taller. Both larger air volume and a better supported side wall means u can run less air pressure for more traction and less rock strikes, not more. I've ridden both for many years and my butt confirms all of this to be true.
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  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachariah View Post
    I ran 23mm internal wheels. Yes, they were a bit heavy but rolled just fine. However, I went back to 19mm internal wheels, weighing almost a full pound less....and I couldn't be happier.

    Neither of those are wide.
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  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    Wow, where do I even begin? U need to go back to the lab bro, u have no idea what u r talking about. And judging from your comments, u have also never ridden wide carbon rims. There IS more volume with a wide rim because it allows the tire to open up wider at the beads thus the tire and rim holds a larger volume of air. The tire IS taller with a wider rim because the tire sidewall is more straight up and down, (which also leads to more sidewall support and less squirming) compaired to a skinny rim which is more angled from the side of the tread to the bead, (also leading to squirming and burps). It's simple math man, draw a 2"angled line and a 2" straight verticle line and make the bottom of both start from the same point. Surprise! the straight verticle line IS taller. Both larger air volume and a better supported side wall means u can run less air pressure for more traction and less rock strikes, not more. I've ridden both for many years and my butt confirms all of this to be true.
    Straight from the horses ass, you might say.

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    Re: Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    Wow, where do I even begin? U need to go back to the lab bro, u have no idea what u r talking about. And judging from your comments, u have also never ridden wide carbon rims. There IS more volume with a wide rim because it allows the tire to open up wider at the beads thus the tire and rim holds a larger volume of air. The tire IS taller with a wider rim because the tire sidewall is more straight up and down, (which also leads to more sidewall support and less squirming) compaired to a skinny rim which is more angled from the side of the tread to the bead, (also leading to squirming and burps). It's simple math man, draw a 2"angled line and a 2" straight verticle line and make the bottom of both start from the same point. Surprise! the straight verticle line IS taller. Both larger air volume and a better supported side wall means u can run less air pressure for more traction and less rock strikes, not more. I've ridden both for many years and my butt confirms all of this to be true.
    A useful mathematical comparison would be to consider the tire casing as an arc enclosing different portions of a circle depending on the rim width. An infinitesimal width would have the tire enclosing the complete 360 degrees of a circle. At the other extreme, consider a wide rim that spreads the tire out to form a half-circle (180 degrees). With the same arc-length (perimeter), the area of the semi-circle is twice that of the circle (it takes just a couple minutes to work out the math to prove this). The relationship isn't linear, and if you continue increasing rim width past the perfect semi-circle the area starts going back down. But generally within the range of normal tire/ rim combinations, a wider rim should add volume to a tire.

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  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    All I can tell you is, I rode a Butcher with 40mm Derby rims. It felt like I was ridding my dirt bike, in the way I could lean on the tires and the stability they give you, even when not leaning on them. It's pretty amazing. Wait till someone starts making tires specifically for these wide rims. Then your going to see something out of this world. I've heard a couple people say that these wide rims are game changers. They are absolutely right. But, as with any big change, it will take time to work itself out and be accepted, just like disc brakes were.
    Please post a picture of this set up. 2.25 tires = 57mm on 40mm derbys. I'm trying to decide if my next wheel build should be 30internal 35 external or the 35mm internal 40mm external.

    I have not rode either, but I don't want to build a set and be disappointed. Anything is going to be an improvement on my current narrow rims, however what we are really getting at is have the rims gotten too wide >30mm internal for the current tire designs if you go with the 40mm

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtrider76 View Post
    Maxxis seem to always run narrow. I run a 2.4Nobby Nic front and a 2.3 Spec Clutch in back on blunt35's(35outside 30inside) with no issue's at all. I have a 2.5 Minion DHF here its the same size as the 2.3 Clutch if not smaller.
    Quote Originally Posted by TigWorld View Post
    I coudn't agree more.



    This is what we need.

    My Syntace W35 wheels squared off my 2.4" conti's too much, resulting in a loss of traction on corner entry compared to running them on narrower rims. You could really feel them come up on the corner knobs as you tipped it in and on hardpack with loose gravel over the top this was not ideal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    Have you actually ridden wide rims with smaller tires? I regularly run 2.25 tires on the rear of my bike without issue on Derby 40 mm wide rims. Several of my friends to as well and again, no issues.

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Straight from the horses ass, you might say.
    Exactly!
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  23. #223
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    Maybe some questions could be answered by reading this. Click on the, "read more" links.
    Home, wide rims, carbon fiber rims, mountain bike rims

  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedS123 View Post
    A useful mathematical comparison would be to consider the tire casing as an arc enclosing different portions of a circle depending on the rim width. An infinitesimal width would have the tire enclosing the complete 360 degrees of a circle. At the other extreme, consider a wide rim that spreads the tire out to form a half-circle (180 degrees). With the same arc-length (perimeter), the area of the semi-circle is twice that of the circle (it takes just a couple minutes to work out the math to prove this). The relationship isn't linear, and if you continue increasing rim width past the perfect semi-circle the area starts going back down. But generally within the range of normal tire/ rim combinations, a wider rim should add volume to a tire.

    Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk
    So you are saying, effectively that the wider rim changes total perimeter - hadn't treacly thought of it like that - shouldn't have said it so absolutely, sometimes it takes that though to get through to someone who thinks anecdote is evidence

    Would 5mm make as much as 2% difference? I'd like to see some accurate maths, I'd be truly stunned if there was more difference than simply going up one tyre size - say from 2.2 to 2.4.

    Still everything points to shape change as the driver of advantage for using lower pressure. To lower pressure by 2psi from 20psi, is going to require something like a 20% change in volume for rim strike force to be equivalent.

    Lower the pressure, increase rim strike risk unless you get a similar percentage of volume increase, fair?

  25. #225
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    Re: Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post
    So you are saying, effectively that the wider rim changes total perimeter
    Actually, no, I'm saying perimeter (tire casing) is constant (independent of rim width). But wrapping the same perimeter (arc length) 360 degrees into a circle gives half the area of wrapping it 180 degrees into a half- circle.


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    I'm jumping into this argument late but.. I'm a x-country rider weighing about 165 lbs. I've been riding my 29r American Classic Wide Lightning wheels for almost a year now. Much more traction everywhere, better cornering, smoother ride AND I can run 5lbs less tire pressure. 19mm inner rim diameter to 29.5 makes a HUGE difference.

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  28. #228
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    Thx for that - keen to learn a little so read the whole lot plus a few links. By and large on volume I was wrong - volume changes by around 10% with a width change of 24 to 36 as a a example ( a bigger change than I was thinking really - I'm more an arch versus flow kind of person)

    I must say though, is the conclusions of wide rims in use I stand by. The poster Hollwell, who is/was a tyre design engineer puts the case here,

    how do wide rims change contact patch/effective height & width? &what tire pressure?- Mtbr.com

    Which given the anecdotal discussion here, the relevant bit is probably

    "As the internal width of the rim increases, the contact patch will become wider and shorter (assuming the inflation pressure and load is kept constant.) However if the shoulder lugs are already in contact with the ground, the contact patch cannot grow wider; instead it becomes more squared off, and the pressure distribution within the contact patch changes.

    A wider rim will not allow one to run tires at lower inflation pressures without suffering rim strikes / pinch flats. To the contrary, the larger internal volume of the tire afforded by the wider rim causes the vertical deflection (i.e. suspension behavior) of the tire to become more linear. Just like a large can air shock, at the same pressure one will be more likely to bottom out the tire, all other things remaining equal.

    A wider rim will, however, reduce sidewall 'squirm' at lowered pressures. Similar to someone shoving you in the shoulder with your feet spaced widely apart versus your feet closely together, the tire is better supported."


    If you burp but don't rim strike, get wider rims and use the same pressure. If you don't burp or suffer squirm problems and occasionally rim strike, wide rims won't help you.

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    Tire deflection cannot be compared to air shock has it's a totally different behavior: air shock are mainly progressive suspension (pressure increase with travel), where tire deflection is constant pressure as volume variation is negligible.

    Basically a tire resist to deflection by increasing the surface patch. Once the surface patch cannot grow longer, it collapse as the force becomes a constant (pressure x surface).

    That's why you can have pretty big dent even by using high volume tires: on a small surface object (rock), the patch surface cannot grow much, so you hit the rim.

  30. #230
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mac_Aravan View Post
    Tire deflection cannot be compared to air shock has it's a totally different behavior: air shock are mainly progressive suspension (pressure increase with travel), where tire deflection is constant pressure as volume variation is negligible.
    "Large can" and "linear" in his post made the same point you're trying to make while saying he was wrong. Large = increased volume = linear response = not progressive.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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    Just to make sure everything is on the up and up,

    Aaron Gwin does not run fr600 rims, he runs the enduro EX471 rims, which have a wide internal width.

    Mitch Ropelato also runs the widest carbon roval rims on his enduro 29er, which he has used extensively on WC DH courses.

    Like others have stated, the Syndicate run wider AM rims, instead of the "DH" specific rims.

    Norco international ran the Industry 9 gravity wheel set last year...

    Believe the hype.

  32. #232
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    DT EX471 is a 25-26mm internal rim given that it's spec'd at a 30mm outer width
    Enve AM rims are 24mm
    Industry 9 are 28.5mm

    I can't find the specs on the Carbon Rovals, but 24mm-28.5mm isn't exactly what's hyped as wide these days. It's not XC skinny, but it's nowhere close to the 35mm & wider rims that are getting all the hype these days.

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    Here's what Specialized reportedly said about wide recently New Specialized Roval Traverse Fattie All Mountain Wheels Show Fat?s Where It?s At

    I interpret the following statement to mean the gains beyond 30mm inner width were still measurable, just not the same rising rate of significance. "From the original 22m ID of the Roval rims to the 30mm ID of these Fatties, the improvement in traction is massive, but Specialized found anything wider offered only diminishing returns."

  34. #234
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    I've always founds tire sizing for bicycle tires (road or mountain) to be purely a "guesstimate." You put the same "size" tire on two diff width rims, it will be either shorter and wider, or narrower and taller, etc. In other words the tire "size" is theoretical.

    With rims width I've found the main thing is with a wider rim, the tire sits lower (so you get less cushioning from air volume between the outside and the rim when you hit a bump) but it also sits wider, so your tire surface contacting the ground is (a little) wider.

    However given the difference is measured in millimeters how much difference does it make?

    I would assume narrower wheels would be faster and wider would offer slightly wider contact patch with the ground. Also wider rims might be more durable and less prone to go out of true. But for most riders who don't race and are just recreational riders or just riding around, the benefit would be with narrower rims, which would likely be lighter, have less rotating mass, and be easier to accelerate or ride uphill or over obstacles like rocks and roots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thelonerider View Post
    I've always founds tire sizing for bicycle tires (road or mountain) to be purely a "guesstimate." You put the same "size" tire on two diff width rims, it will be either shorter and wider, or narrower and taller, etc. In other words the tire "size" is theoretical.

    With rims width I've found the main thing is with a wider rim, the tire sits lower (so you get less cushioning from air volume between the outside and the rim when you hit a bump) but it also sits wider, so your tire surface contacting the ground is (a little) wider.

    However given the difference is measured in millimeters how much difference does it make?

    I would assume narrower wheels would be faster and wider would offer slightly wider contact patch with the ground. Also wider rims might be more durable and less prone to go out of true. But for most riders who don't race and are just recreational riders or just riding around, the benefit would be with narrower rims, which would likely be lighter, have less rotating mass, and be easier to accelerate or ride uphill or over obstacles like rocks and roots.
    Good answer. Winner.....chicken dinner.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachariah View Post
    Good answer. Winner.....chicken dinner.
    Argh! And I just had all that Turkey!

  37. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thelonerider View Post
    With rims width I've found the main thing is with a wider rim, the tire sits lower (so you get less cushioning from air volume between the outside and the rim when you hit a bump) but it also sits wider, so your tire surface contacting the ground is (a little) wider.
    Tire height does not vary significantly with rim width and a knobby tire's contact with the ground is determined by the tread pattern, not the casing width. While both of these claims sound true, neither of them is true. With road tires the contact patch could become a little wider. Whether that is meaningful is a different question.

    Rim width affects how the sidewall behaves, it does not change the size of the tire. People think they are getting a bigger tire because the caliper says they are wider. The height of the casing and the width of the tread stay the same and that's what matters.

  38. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thelonerider View Post
    I've always founds tire sizing for bicycle tires (road or mountain) to be purely a "guesstimate." You put the same "size" tire on two diff width rims, it will be either shorter and wider, or narrower and taller, etc. In other words the tire "size" is theoretical.

    With rims width I've found the main thing is with a wider rim, the tire sits lower (so you get less cushioning from air volume between the outside and the rim when you hit a bump) but it also sits wider, so your tire surface contacting the ground is (a little) wider.

    However given the difference is measured in millimeters how much difference does it make?

    I would assume narrower wheels would be faster and wider would offer slightly wider contact patch with the ground. Also wider rims might be more durable and less prone to go out of true. But for most riders who don't race and are just recreational riders or just riding around, the benefit would be with narrower rims, which would likely be lighter, have less rotating mass, and be easier to accelerate or ride uphill or over obstacles like rocks and roots.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zachariah View Post
    Good answer. Winner.....chicken dinner.

    Wrong and wrong again. Just stop talking until you do some current research, or better yet, try it out for yourself unstead of speculating and guessing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    Wrong and wrong again. Just stop talking until you do some current research, or better yet, try it out for yourself ..
    Okay... Actually, I did try it for myself.

    This was based on anecdotal examples in my experience of using diff tires and rims and how the tire sat.

    I have not done wider research, but I thought the discussion was started because someone wanted to know what the impact of diff rim size would be on how the bike was felt to perform, which would seem to include effective tire height/width as perceived by the rider in motion, not just measured static results per se.

  40. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    Wrong and wrong again. Just stop talking until you do some current research, or better yet, try it out for yourself unstead of speculating and guessing.
    Why don't you stop thinking you know everything? I have had 40mm Derbys and I like the 19mm Easton better...what's your explanation for that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachariah View Post
    Why don't you stop thinking you know everything? I have had 40mm Derbys and I like the 19mm Easton better...what's your explanation for that?

    My guess is you are smoking crack. You shouldn't do it, it's bad for you and it clouds your judgment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachariah View Post
    I have had 40mm Derbys and I like the 19mm Easton better...what's your explanation for that?
    You're not drinking enough kool-aid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    My guess is you are smoking crack. You shouldn't do it, it's bad for you and it clouds your judgment.
    I just don't think you can advance a blanket proposition that wider rims are better period, and that anyone that disagrees is on drugs. It's like saying "tyre X" is better. There are no absolutes and many subjective and personal variables at play.
    Last edited by TigWorld; 12-01-2014 at 09:57 PM.

  43. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Tire height does not vary significantly with rim width and a knobby tire's contact with the ground is determined by the tread pattern, not the casing width. While both of these claims sound true, neither of them is true. With road tires the contact patch could become a little wider. Whether that is meaningful is a different question.

    Rim width affects how the sidewall behaves, it does not change the size of the tire. People think they are getting a bigger tire because the caliper says they are wider. The height of the casing and the width of the tread stay the same and that's what matters.
    Why would tread pattern make any difference?

    Everything still points to psi being the greater contributor to tyre behaviour over all other inputs. There isn't anything bad about wide rims, except when someone uses it as an excuse to lower their usual running pressure - which wouldn't be such a bad thing ordinarily, but is a recipe for significant expense and disappointment when it's a carbon rim which just don't seem to enjoy rock strikes

  44. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thelonerider View Post
    I've always founds tire sizing for bicycle tires (road or mountain) to be purely a "guesstimate." You put the same "size" tire on two diff width rims, it will be either shorter and wider, or narrower and taller, etc. In other words the tire "size" is theoretical.

    With rims width I've found the main thing is with a wider rim, the tire sits lower (so you get less cushioning from air volume between the outside and the rim when you hit a bump) but it also sits wider, so your tire surface contacting the ground is (a little) wider.

    However given the difference is measured in millimeters how much difference does it make?

    I would assume narrower wheels would be faster and wider would offer slightly wider contact patch with the ground. Also wider rims might be more durable and less prone to go out of true. But for most riders who don't race and are just recreational riders or just riding around, the benefit would be with narrower rims, which would likely be lighter, have less rotating mass, and be easier to accelerate or ride uphill or over obstacles like rocks and roots.
    Is this a joke?

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    Bikes are no different than golf, tennis, skiing, etc. There needs to be constant change in equipment to keep the industry alive. Sometimes that change is arbitrary. Some things come along and change the game and matter, but most are just incremental and perceived in value.

    If I could afford it, I'd have myself a nice 23mm carbon Nox hoop laced to I9 hubs for a 1470g 29" wheel that will do just about 99.9999% of what I need. 30mm internal will only gain me weight for what I ride, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work for those who want it.

    Let's try to remember its about having fun and being healthy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TigWorld View Post
    You're not drinking enough kool-aid.



    I just don't think you can advance a blanket proposition that wider rims are better period, and that anyone that disagrees is on drugs. It's like saying "tyre X" is better. There are no absolutes and many subjective and personal variables at play.
    Yes, I can and yes they are. Saying skinny rims are better than wide (especially wide carbon) rims is like saying rim brakes are better than disc brakes. It's just not true and anyone who thinks it is, is high, hugely uninformed or has hit their head one too many times.

    Wide carbon rims being better is just a fact.
    P.S. wide carbon rims are as light or lighter than skinny aluminum rims. They are also stiffer and stronger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Is this a joke?
    IKR! Seems like it must be, but sadly, I don't think it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    Wide carbon rims being better is just a fact.
    If they're truly that good then every top 20 DH and Enduro racer would be using them.
    They're not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    If they're truly that good then every top 20 DH and Enduro racer would be using them.
    They're not.
    They don't have much of a choice when their sponsors don't make them,,,yet.
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  50. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    Wide carbon rims being better is just a fact...
    So why isn't everyone running fatbike rims at 50mm, 70mm or 90mm wide if wider is always better? There must be some point at which "wide" becomes too-wide.

    As as for being uninformed, I've got Syntace W35 rims and I've got Stans 21mm internal rims and I've done many back-to-back comparisons and each has their advantages and disadvantages. Your over-simplified bleating is just not right. Its horses for courses and if you think that wider is always better then I'm afraid you're the one who has hit his head one too many times or should put down the crack pipe.

    If you like your wide carbon rims (whatever internal width they are) for the riding you do then good luck to you, but to resort to name calling is just weak. It just makes you sound like some sort of enduro-mag reading wannabe who isn't prepared to discuss things rationally because he's just blown his piggy bank money on a new set of rims.

    So tell us then, how wide is too wide?

  51. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    They don't have much of a choice when their sponsors don't make them,,,yet.
    Maybe you'd like to explain why Anne-Caroline Chausson runs Mavic wheels when she's sponsored by Ibis and can use their wide carbon wheels.

  52. #252
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    Re: Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Maybe you'd like to explain why Anne-Caroline Chausson runs Mavic wheels when she's sponsored by Ibis and can use their wide carbon wheels.
    Simple.
    Because she is also sponsored by Mavic.
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  53. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachariah View Post
    Why don't you stop thinking you know everything? I have had 40mm Derbys and I like the 19mm Easton better...what's your explanation for that?
    Boy, I don't know what to say to this. I could see liking a 23mm rim but 19? And to pick Easton of all examples? I've seen so many broken Easton nipples and rear hubs. If it's working for you great but I think you'd like some 23-26mm wide carbon rims laced with 32 bladed spokes to DT 240s better.
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  54. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lejandt View Post
    ...bladed spokes...
    Seriously? Bladed spokes? More kool-aid. I challenge anyone to tell the difference in a blind test between CX-Rays , Revs and Lasers (or between super CX-Rays and superspokes).

    Anyway, are we going to try to answer the "how wide is too wide?" question or is the utility of this entire thread going to boil down to "go wide dude, its wicked!"

  55. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Maybe you'd like to explain why Anne-Caroline Chausson runs Mavic wheels when she's sponsored by Ibis and can use their wide carbon wheels.
    Really? Because she gets paid extra to be sponsored by Mavic.
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    For reference, I have a set of the Roval Fattie 27.5 wheels and love them. I keep them set up with wide tires (2.3 minimum) and low pressure (14/16psi) and they've been amazing. I also have a pair of the Roval SL 29er wheels (21mm internal) that I use on my 29er and cross bikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thelonerider View Post
    I would assume narrower wheels would be faster and wider would offer slightly wider contact patch with the ground. Also wider rims might be more durable and less prone to go out of true. But for most riders who don't race and are just recreational riders or just riding around, the benefit would be with narrower rims, which would likely be lighter, have less rotating mass, and be easier to accelerate or ride uphill or over obstacles like rocks and roots.
    I would actually argue exactly the opposite conclusions. Narrower rims can be lighter (fractionally) and could accelerate quicker - but these are traits racers would look for over an "average" rider. Greater durability, bigger contact patch, and greater traction would be of a greater benefit to someone just going out for a ride on their favorite trail - who maybe wanted to push themselves on harder terrain. Unless you're talking about a significant drop in weight, the traction gained from the wider ties/less pressure far out weights any additional weight when climbing over rocks and roots. [Note: I'm talking about rims with similar construction. A heavy, wide, alloy rim vs. a skinny carbon racing wheel is a comparing apples to tomatoes.]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zachariah View Post
    Why don't you stop thinking you know everything? I have had 40mm Derbys and I like the 19mm Easton better...what's your explanation for that?
    Can I ask why you liked the Eastons better? This is a sincere question, not a baited one. What type of riding do you prefer?

    My personal experience with the wide rims is that I had to drop pressure WAY more that I thought I should to get them to feel good. I also wouldn't want to run anything less than a 2.3 (or wide 2.2) tire. With too skinny of a tire, the side knobs start to dig in too much when you don't need them. Rotating weight can also be a factor. The Derby's aren't heavy, but they also aren't light either.

    Quote Originally Posted by TigWorld View Post
    If you like your wide carbon rims (whatever internal width they are) for the riding you do then good luck to you, but to resort to name calling is just weak. It just makes you sound like some sort of enduro-mag reading wannabe who isn't prepared to discuss things rationally because he's just blown his piggy bank money on a new set of rims.
    Truth.

    These forums can be great to discuss new gear and in different permutations than any one of us (except maybe Francois) will ever be able to try on our own. But y'all need to be open to differing opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by TigWorld View Post
    So why isn't everyone running fatbike rims at 50mm, 70mm or 90mm wide if wider is always better? There must be some point at which "wide" becomes too-wide...

    ...tell us then, how wide is too wide?
    I think this is a damn good question. And it might be getting us into a 26 v 27.5 vs 29er realm of debate. That there is no right or wrong answer, just different strokes for different folks.

    Wider (w/ wider tires) = lower pressure/higher contact patch but with potentially higher weight and greater rolling resistance.

    Skinnier = lighter, quicker accelerating, but having to run higher pressure and giving up traction in situations.


    I could be wrong, but since I don't have a bad thing to say about my Fatties, maybe Specialized did find the sweet spot in their research for all round riding at 30mm internal width.


    Next summer I want to try another permutation: I'm building up a lightweight 29er and I want to try wide rims with lower profile tires. Lower profile tires would have lower rolling resistance, but it's always been at the cost of traction compared to tires with bigger knobs. I want to see if I can get that low rolling resistance, then boost the traction with lower psi and greater contact patch. Has anyone played around with this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jester6578 View Post
    Next summer I want to try another permutation: I'm building up a lightweight 29er and I want to try wide rims with lower profile tires. Lower profile tires would have lower rolling resistance, but it's always been at the cost of traction compared to tires with bigger knobs. I want to see if I can get that low rolling resistance, then boost the traction with lower psi and greater contact patch. Has anyone played around with this?
    Yeah, back in the 90s. XC semi-slick tires on 1.5" wide single wall rims. It was not my idea of fun and I don't see any reason to go back to a similar setup, albeit with a lighter & stronger modern rim. Differences were small, if any, it's not like I could drop 5-10 psi and be 5 minutes faster on my half hour test loop or make a bunch of climbs that I couldn't make on skinny rims.

  58. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Yeah, back in the 90s. XC semi-slick tires on 1.5" wide single wall rims. It was not my idea of fun and I don't see any reason to go back to a similar setup, albeit with a lighter & stronger modern rim. Differences were small, if any, it's not like I could drop 5-10 psi and be 5 minutes faster on my half hour test loop or make a bunch of climbs that I couldn't make on skinny rims.
    Do you mind sharing which rims/tires you tried out? And how much less pressure you used?

    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jester6578 View Post
    For reference, I have a set of the Roval Fattie 27.5 wheels and love them. I keep them set up with wide tires (2.3 minimum) and low pressure (14/16psi) and they've been amazing. I also have a pair of the Roval SL 29er wheels (21mm internal) that I use on my 29er and cross bikes.



    I would actually argue exactly the opposite conclusions. Narrower rims can be lighter (fractionally) and could accelerate quicker - but these are traits racers would look for over an "average" rider. Greater durability, bigger contact patch, and greater traction would be of a greater benefit to someone just going out for a ride on their favorite trail - who maybe wanted to push themselves on harder terrain. Unless you're talking about a significant drop in weight, the traction gained from the wider ties/less pressure far out weights any additional weight when climbing over rocks and roots. [Note: I'm talking about rims with similar construction. A heavy, wide, alloy rim vs. a skinny carbon racing wheel is a comparing apples to tomatoes.]



    Can I ask why you liked the Eastons better? This is a sincere question, not a baited one. What type of riding do you prefer?

    My personal experience with the wide rims is that I had to drop pressure WAY more that I thought I should to get them to feel good. I also wouldn't want to run anything less than a 2.3 (or wide 2.2) tire. With too skinny of a tire, the side knobs start to dig in too much when you don't need them. Rotating weight can also be a factor. The Derby's aren't heavy, but they also aren't light either.



    Truth.

    These forums can be great to discuss new gear and in different permutations than any one of us (except maybe Francois) will ever be able to try on our own. But y'all need to be open to differing opinions.



    I think this is a damn good question. And it might be getting us into a 26 v 27.5 vs 29er realm of debate. That there is no right or wrong answer, just different strokes for different folks.

    Wider (w/ wider tires) = lower pressure/higher contact patch but with potentially higher weight and greater rolling resistance.

    Skinnier = lighter, quicker accelerating, but having to run higher pressure and giving up traction in situations.


    I could be wrong, but since I don't have a bad thing to say about my Fatties, maybe Specialized did find the sweet spot in their research for all round riding at 30mm internal width.


    Next summer I want to try another permutation: I'm building up a lightweight 29er and I want to try wide rims with lower profile tires. Lower profile tires would have lower rolling resistance, but it's always been at the cost of traction compared to tires with bigger knobs. I want to see if I can get that low rolling resistance, then boost the traction with lower psi and greater contact patch. Has anyone played around with this?


    To clear up one more myth, wider tires with lower pressures actually have lower rolling resistance than narrow tires with higher pressures when riding in offroad conditions.

    Rolling resistance - Schwalbe Professional Bike Tires

    http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/...ce-604387.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    To clear up one more myth, wider tires with lower pressures actually have lower rolling resistance than narrow tires with higher pressures when riding in offroad conditions.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/...ce-604387.html
    Yes, but that is very terrain/conditions dependent. And at what point do you get to diminishing returns?

    I like wider rims, but blanket statements do a disservice to your argument. Don't you dare claim that you've ridden a fatbike at 7psi and that it has the same rolling resistance as a cross bike at 35psi in all "offroad conditions"

    Also, the links in that thread no longer work.

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    Yes, but that is very terrain/conditions dependent. And at what point do you get to diminishing returns?




    On smooth pavement.

    Rolling resistance - Schwalbe Professional Bike Tires
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    Quote Originally Posted by jester6578 View Post
    Do you mind sharing which rims/tires you tried out? And how much less pressure you used?
    According to my notes, the narrow rims were Mavic 230 and the wide ones were Arayas of some sort. Tires were Ritchey Speedmax 1.9" and Z-max 2.1". The Speedmax was always in the 35-40psi range, any lower and it pinch flatted, Z-max was 30-35psi, pinch flatted as well when I went lower. I'd have to plug the numbers into a spreadsheet to be sure, but it looks like all the lap times are within the margin of error.

  63. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    From the link:
    The lower the inflation pressure, the lower the rolling resistance. This applies equally on hard gravel roads and soft forest tracks. Explanation: A tire with low inflation pressure can adapt better to a rugged surface. It sinks into the ground less and the whole rotational mass is retarded much less by the uneven surface.

    Tires with a smaller diameter have a higher rolling resistance with the same tire pressure, because tire deformation is proportionally greater. In other words the tire is “less round”.
    Thanks for the link - it's an interesting way to think about it. And I realized in my last response I wasn't taking into account rotating mass.


    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    According to my notes, the narrow rims were Mavic 230 and the wide ones were Arayas of some sort. Tires were Ritchey Speedmax 1.9" and Z-max 2.1". The Speedmax was always in the 35-40psi range, any lower and it pinch flatted, Z-max was 30-35psi, pinch flatted as well when I went lower. I'd have to plug the numbers into a spreadsheet to be sure, but it looks like all the lap times are within the margin of error.
    Ah, so you were running tubes? And it looks like the Arayas only run ~20mm internal? Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TigWorld View Post
    I challenge anyone to tell the difference in a blind test between CX-Rays , Revs and Lasers (or between super CX-Rays and superspokes.
    I can tell a big difference when building or truing a wheel. Thin, round spokes wind up, especially at the very nigh tensions carbon rims allow. Bladed spokes allow you to use a nice little holder so you can get an exact amount of turn on each nipple. Even if they weren't 50g+ per wheel lighter than 14/15 spokes I'd always use them just for that reason. I never used spokes thinner than 14/15 cuz of the wind up and they just didn't seem to build into strong, stiff wheels. You only saw XC racers using them. What turned me onto the bladed spokes that fit normal hubs was when downhillers started using CX-Rays. I've now used Sapim CX-Rays, DT Aerolites, and Pillar 1420s.

    To answer the other half of your question I decided a decade ago that 29-30mm internal rims feel good with DH width tires and 23-25mm rims feel good with XC tires. There was a period in DH where we had some very wide rims to try and I preferred the 29mm Mavic 729 and 30mm Intense Mag 30 to all others when paired with Minion DHF 2.7s (really 2.5"). Back then I was liking the 23-25mm wide Sun Singletrack and Rynolite rims with my 2.2" XC tires.
    Now I use Light-Bicycle 30mm rims on my DH and enduro bikes and 23mm rims on my XC bike. I'll bump the latter up to 25mm when it needs new rims if someone makes a sub 400g hookless 27.5 model.
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  65. #265
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    In this blind test, the wheels would need to be covered? Or just go for it with a blind fold on?

  66. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoolie View Post
    In this blind test, the wheels would need to be covered? Or just go for it with a blind fold on?
    Blindfold all the way! Do it.
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  67. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    Sapim CX-Rays, DT Aerolites, and Pillar 1420s
    Those spokes are all no stronger than their 2.0 / 1.5 mm round equivalents from which they are made (although manufacturers do have some higher fatigue life claims). A CX-Ray is just a flattened Laser that costs three times the price and an Aerolite is just a flattened Rev. They are just as elastic/flexy as any other spoke with the same cross sectional area at the thinnest point. Flattening a round spoke does not magically alter the properties of the metal its made of for the purposes of the present discussion.

    If spoke wind-up is an issue for you when building then that's just down to technique and inadequate stress relief during the build. Flat bladed spokes are a crutch in that regard, but if you need that crutch and are happy to pay 3x as much, for no net performance gain then go for it.

  68. #268
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    Pillar 1420s cost $1.60 per spoke. Not so bad. I haven't seen one of these types of bladed spokes break yet but have seen plenty of broken Revs. Of course Revs are still more common. I've also never seen a DH or enduro wheel built with Revs but CX-Rays and Aerolites are pretty popular. Are you hating just cuz of the price or do you love doing the angle-pinch to keep Revs from winding up? Have you used Revs to build a carbon rim or DH rim that can take really high tension? Seems like a nightmare.
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  69. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    ...Are you hating just cuz of the price or do you love doing the angle-pinch to keep Revs from winding up? Have you used Revs to build a carbon rim or DH rim that can take really high tension? Seems like a nightmare.
    Not hating, just don't like the perpetuation of urban myths or other claims that have no scientific rigor behind them. I haven't built any carbon wheels but have built wheels that can take really high tension. But high spoke tension is another urban myth debunked many times in the past. As long as you have enough tension that a spoke will not go slack while riding, then any higher tension will not result in a stiffer wheel - Wheel Stiffness Test

    On the subject of carbon rims and wheel stiffness as perceived by the rider, there's some interesting reading here: Debunking Wheel Stiffness - Slowtwitch.com

  70. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    I can tell a big difference when building or truing a wheel. Thin, round spokes wind up, especially at the very nigh tensions carbon rims allow. Bladed spokes allow you to use a nice little holder so you can get an exact amount of turn on each nipple.
    I don't claim to be an expert wheel builder, but I have had a couple sets of carbon hoops built up by respected wheel builders, and they both suggested bladed spokes for that very reason. Makes sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    To answer the other half of your question I decided a decade ago that 29-30mm internal rims feel good with DH width tires and 23-25mm rims feel good with XC tires. There was a period in DH where we had some very wide rims to try and I preferred the 29mm Mavic 729 and 30mm Intense Mag 30 to all others when paired with Minion DHF 2.7s (really 2.5"). Back then I was liking the 23-25mm wide Sun Singletrack and Rynolite rims with my 2.2" XC tires.
    Now I use Light-Bicycle 30mm rims on my DH and enduro bikes and 23mm rims on my XC bike. I'll bump the latter up to 25mm when it needs new rims if someone makes a sub 400g hookless 27.5 model.
    I have a feeling that most riders (and rim manufacturers) will eventually settle on the widths for the applications you've described. A possible exception to this might be if a company designs a rim in conjunction with a tire (similar to what was done with fat tires).
    Tire Design & Development Engineer. The opinions expressed in this forum are solely my own.

  71. #271
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    Pillar 1420s cost $1.60 per spoke. Not so bad. I haven't seen one of these types of bladed spokes break yet but have seen plenty of broken Revs. Of course Revs are still more common. I've also never seen a DH or enduro wheel built with Revs but CX-Rays and Aerolites are pretty popular. Are you hating just cuz of the price or do you love doing the angle-pinch to keep Revs from winding up? Have you used Revs to build a carbon rim or DH rim that can take really high tension? Seems like a nightmare.
    It's not a nightmare at all (I've built plenty). If you're willing to buy more expensive spokes so your wheelbuilder can use their cute little holder, that's your choice. There is nothing about bladed spokes that affords you, the end user, a benefit.
    Incidentally, what benefit do you think a rider with carbon rims gets out of "really high tension," particularly in the overwhelming majority of cases where normal tension in the range of 110-120kgf is plenty adequate?
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  72. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Incidentally, what benefit do you think a rider with carbon rims gets out of "really high tension," particularly in the overwhelming majority of cases where normal tension in the range of 110-120kgf is plenty adequate?
    My experience is with Light-Bicycle carbon rims, Mavic 729s, and Intense Mag 30s that could take really high tension (basically the alloy nipples become the limiting factor) versus Notubes rims that couldn't go over 95-125 depending on model. The stiff rims with high tension resulted in a laterally stiff feeling wheel that didn't go out of true. The low tension NoTubes wheels would go out of true or round especially with hard use like big jump landings.

    When you consider that as a wheel spins (or lands from a big jump) the bottom spokes are unloaded while the top ones are loaded it makes sense that a higher spoke tension will reduce the amount of vertical tension/slack that's happening. Despite what the linked articles above say it makes sense that the same holds true for lateral stiffness. A wheel with higher tension certainly feels stiffer than one with low tension and when you look at how lateral cornering force is pulling on the spokes on the bottom/outside of the wheel is makes sense that having those spokes tighter results in less rim deflection.

    Regardless of all this theory I can state that all the DT 240/bladed spoke/Light Bicycle wheels I've built for myself and friends have been very light, low maintenance, and felt great. I have yet to find anything better, though of course there's cheaper options if that's your priority.
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  73. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    My experience is with Light-Bicycle carbon rims, Mavic 729s, and Intense Mag 30s that could take really high tension (basically the alloy nipples become the limiting factor) versus Notubes rims that couldn't go over 95-125 depending on model. The stiff rims with high tension resulted in a laterally stiff feeling wheel that didn't go out of true. The low tension NoTubes wheels would go out of true or round especially with hard use like big jump landings.
    That's because Stan's rims are soft & weak compared to a Mavic 729, it's the rim, not the spoke tension. A softer more flexible rim (Stan's) will bend more which unloads the spokes and allows them to loosen, that is, in addition to the rim itself bending. It takes far more force to bend a 729 to the point where the spokes will unload & loosen, so even if a Stan's and 729 were both built to the same tension, the Mavic will still be much stiffer, stronger, and better able to stay true.

  74. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    When you consider that as a wheel spins (or lands from a big jump) the bottom spokes are unloaded while the top ones are loaded it makes sense that a higher spoke tension will reduce the amount of vertical tension/slack that's happening.
    1. the top ones are not loaded in this scenario. the remainder of the spokes in the wheel that do not see the large detensioning do share a roughly equal slight increase, but not the top ones any more than the ones at 3 or 9 o'clock.
    2. tension does not reduce the amount of deformation... it changes the point at which the deformation causes slack spokes, and that is a very important difference. this is the important difference that dictates the fact that higher tension does not make stiffer wheels.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    Despite what the linked articles above say it makes sense that the same holds true for lateral stiffness. A wheel with higher tension certainly feels stiffer than one with low tension and when you look at how lateral cornering force is pulling on the spokes on the bottom/outside of the wheel is makes sense that having those spokes tighter results in less rim deflection.
    this is another important difference: reality vs. your feelings

    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    Regardless of all this theory I can state that all the DT 240/bladed spoke/Light Bicycle wheels I've built for myself and friends have been very light, low maintenance, and felt great. I have yet to find anything better, though of course there's cheaper options if that's your priority.
    No doubt they build fine wheels... I never said they didn't. They don't offer a benefit over some other options, except the opportunity to spend more money, if that's your priority.

    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    That's because Stan's rims are soft & weak compared to a Mavic 729, it's the rim, not the spoke tension. A softer more flexible rim (Stan's) will bend more which unloads the spokes and allows them to loosen, that is, in addition to the rim itself bending. It takes far more force to bend a 729 to the point where the spokes will unload & loosen, so even if a Stan's and 729 were both built to the same tension, the Mavic will still be much stiffer, stronger, and better able to stay true.
    ^^this
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  75. #275
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    There's also some interesting reading in this article from Nox Composites about vertical compliance and carbon rims - Wheel Building Philosophy and Other Info | Nox Composites Carbon MTB Rims and Wheels

    The bottom line seems to be that the carbon rim is twice as radially stiff as the aluminium rim, but the actual amount of deflection for both types of rim is so small as to be imperceptible to humans (eg. 2” root hit at 15mph deflects alu rim by 0.018 inches and carbon rim by 0.009 inches).

  76. #276
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    Clementz just split with Mavic so it'll be interesting to see what his 2015 rims will be made of and how wide they'll be. He told me he likes alloy cuz he can repair dented sidewalls between stages but I haven't heard him comment on width. It reasons that he'll be on something carbon from Sram but I don't know their line.
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  77. #277
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    SRAMs top of the line wheel is the Roam 60, which they call a wide angle rim, but it's only 21mm internal, (28ex).
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  78. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffreyjhsu View Post
    I'm jumping into this argument late but.. I'm a x-country rider weighing about 165 lbs. I've been riding my 29r American Classic Wide Lightning wheels for almost a year now. Much more traction everywhere, better cornering, smoother ride AND I can run 5lbs less tire pressure. 19mm inner rim diameter to 29.5 makes a HUGE difference.
    I think this post is the most telling for this (very long) thread.

    Lots of people are calling for experience to trump theory here, so I'll just relay my anecdotal experience: all the guys I know who rave about super wide rims are XC and "light trail" riders, mostly on 29ers. All the guys I know who are calling BS on the "hype" are serious descenders, cat 1 DH and enduro guys, etc. The latter group invariably says they hate that the width closes up the drift patch of their tires. The former group mostly doesn't even know what a drift patch is or what it does, and wouldn't ride a tire with such a feature anyway because they tend to roll really slowly. This is just my little world, but it's 100% consistent so far.

    I don't have the money to experiment with 38mm wide carbon rims, so this is all I have to go off of. And what it seems like to me is that there are advantages and disadvantages to riding giant width rims (gasp!). Width seems to work out for guys whose average trail speeds are lower, who ride tires with rounder profiles and smaller side lugs. Whereas it seems to bother guys who are leaning their bikes over more because of the speed they carry, (and it's worth noting that a HUGE percentage of these guys are riding Minions or Minion clones like Butchers, or High Rollers, or something that looks like it's designed to shovel dirt sideways at 30mph).

    Someone else just pointed out that most of the "wide" rims the pro DH and enduro riders are using are still within the 25mm internal width zone. Makes sense, no?

  79. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    ...I'll just relay my anecdotal experience...I don't have the money to experiment with 38mm wide carbon rims, so this is all I have to go off of...
    Incredible anecdotal experience there. What would we have done without it?

    Sometimes perspectives, though explainable, are naive...even among racers. No one would want wagon wheels...until they did. Progress frequently requires relearning and that creates resistance.

    What is hated today becomes the standard tomorrow. Today's "long, low, and slack" was yesterday's sluggish handling, wheel flopping, pedal crashing nightmare. Sometimes prejudice is a better explanation. Don't think just because someone says something that it's true.

  80. #280
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    What is true, is they need to start making tires for these wide rims. Then we'll really see some progress.

    BTW, I Don't think JLF1200 is far off.

  81. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Incredible anecdotal experience there. What would we have done without it?
    Nice job editing out the actual anecdotes. What would we do without your asshatty sarcasm, though?

    Sometimes perspectives, though explainable, are naive...even among racers.
    Sure, but clocks don't lie. We can always count on MTBR Trail Brah coming here to talk about how awesomely squishy his 40mm rim makes his tires feel and therefore it's "better," but even if he swears he's faster it's pretty subjective. Someone who competes will generally offer a more valuable opinion regarding performance than someone who doesn't. And the opinion I'm hearing from competitive gravity riders is that super wide rims don't do good things to their tires. Up to you whether you choose to believe that all those guys are "naive" or deluded or whatever. I think that suggests your own bias more than anything else.

    The point I was trying to make was that contexts are rarely equal in a thread like this. Some dude who rides XC and carries an average speed of 7mph for 2 hours and spends most of that time climbing has vastly different demands for his wheels and tires than someone who races balls out for 3-15 mins at a time down a fall line and couldn't care less about going uphill. They're in different worlds. Not sure why I have to beat you over the head with this, unless you're just a troll.

    Don't think just because someone says something that it's true.
    So you talk sh!t on my post for not being insightful enough, and then drop groundbreaking pearls of wisdom like this?

  82. #282
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    I'm running Flow Exs (which used to be considered wide) and Hans Dampf 2.35s. Coming from 17mm internal width rims they were a huge improvement. However with these particular tires, 25mm internal width seems just about right to me. I don't feel any wobble at the limit like I did on skinny rims. However I'm not looking for more lateral stability. On a fast bumpy corner, I want some lateral give in the tire.

    At least I think I do. I'll have to actually run the wider rims to know for sure. For now I ain't gonna fix what's not broke.

  83. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    Nice job editing out the actual anecdotes. What would we do without your asshatty sarcasm, though?
    You provided no anecdotes, much less anecdotes of your own. Perhaps you should understand what one is.

    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    Someone who competes will generally offer a more valuable opinion regarding performance than someone who doesn't.
    Only if their opinion is on how to compete. Racers generally aren't engineers and frequently know nothing about what they ride.

    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    Up to you whether you choose to believe that all those guys are "naive" or deluded or whatever. I think that suggests your own bias more than anything else.
    Yes, it is up to me and I prefer not to defer to an authority whose understanding is completely unknown and unproven, who are often paid to ride what they ride and told what to say about it. Furthermore, I'm even more uninterested in some unknown guy's summary of those opinions that he claims are his own "anecdotes". Some people lack critical thinking skills...like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    Not sure why I have to beat you over the head with this, unless you're just a troll.
    If you can't make your case you can always resort to insults. Perhaps you can stomp your feet and scream "Mommy" while you are at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    So you talk sh!t on my post for not being insightful enough, and then drop groundbreaking pearls of wisdom like this?
    Can't help it if you don't understand it. If you can't demonstrate that you even understand the words you use, why should anyone care what you say?

  84. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    You provided no anecdotes, much less anecdotes of your own. Perhaps you should understand what one is.

    Only if their opinion is on how to compete. Racers generally aren't engineers and frequently know nothing about what they ride.

    Yes, it is up to me and I prefer not to defer to an authority whose understanding is completely unknown and unproven, who are often paid to ride what they ride and told what to say about it. Furthermore, I'm even more uninterested in some unknown guy's summary of those opinions that he claims are his own "anecdotes". Some people lack critical thinking skills...like you.

    If you can't make your case you can always resort to insults. Perhaps you can stomp your feet and scream "Mommy" while you are at it.

    Can't help it if you don't understand it. If you can't demonstrate that you even understand the words you use, why should anyone care what you say?
    Ah, now I see what sort of troll you are: the angry engineer, high analytical intelligence, low emotional intelligence, can't refrain from swiping at people on internet forums when you feel they haven't maintained scientific purity in the discussion. A quick search of your posts shows this pattern. Your day job coworkers must love you.

    Only if their opinion is on how to compete. Racers generally aren't engineers and frequently know nothing about what they ride.
    I disagree, they are quite intuitive about their equipment and certainly more knowledgable about performance than the enthusiast, but it's understandable that someone like you would want to devalue the observations of faster riders in the face of engineering calculations. It's how your ego protects you from feelings of inadequacy that arise when you get involved with sports. Product testing and rider feedback on the race circuit is a waste of time in your mind, I assume?

    The OP is a competitive DH rider, and I was relaying reports from other competitive DH riders about rim width. Pretty valuable and relevant to the topic, if you're the "ignorant" sort who actually races bikes, like we are. Maybe you aren't, and that's ok. You might consider just cordially proposing why my particular observation didn't make sense mathematically, since that's your happy place.

    Thing is, this is a fairly simple concept I'm trying (for the third time) to relay: that gravity tire designs (think Minions) don't jive with super wide rims, specifically because the slight change in shape causes the drift channel to not perform as intended and the tire loses bite. Maybe you can't ride fast enough to experience this for yourself, but I'm sure you could do something constructive, like run a MATLAB simulation.

  85. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Incredible anecdotal experience there. What would we have done without it?

    Sometimes perspectives, though explainable, are naive...even among racers. No one would want wagon wheels...until they did. Progress frequently requires relearning and that creates resistance.

    What is hated today becomes the standard tomorrow. Today's "long, low, and slack" was yesterday's sluggish handling, wheel flopping, pedal crashing nightmare. Sometimes prejudice is a better explanation. Don't think just because someone says something that it's true.
    It was yesterday's sluggish handling, wheel flopping, pedal crushing nightmare, because other changes had to be made for it to work properly. Those changes were made, people learned and now it works great. JLF1200 is correct. The DH and Enduro people aren't embracing this yet, because it doesn't work for them. There are other things that they are slow to embrace. DH racing is extreme and on the ragged edge. These guys aren't going to use something that doesn't work well. It's just going to take some time till the tire makers can make tires for these wide rims.

  86. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    It was yesterday's sluggish handling, wheel flopping, pedal crushing nightmare, because other changes had to be made for it to work properly. Those changes were made, people learned and now it works great. JLF1200 is correct. The DH and Enduro people aren't embracing this yet, because it doesn't work for them. There are other things that they are slow to embrace. DH racing is extreme and on the ragged edge. These guys aren't going to use something that doesn't work well. It's just going to take some time till the tire makers can make tires for these wide rims.
    Thank you-- that's all I was trying to say! Rim choice isn't going to trump tire choice for gravity riders, ever. And the Minion design is probably ridden 3:1 against all others. Tire manufacturing isn't the fastest thing to adapt, so we might end up in a chicken/egg situation (no demand/no offerings) unless a small/scrappy company steps in with a wide-rim, gravity-oriented design.

    Someone like bholwell could probably comment on whether this would be as simple as spacing the side lugs away from the center or if it would also involve a differently shaped casing, or other changes.

  87. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlf1200 View Post
    ah, now i see what sort of troll you are: The angry engineer, high analytical intelligence, low emotional intelligence, can't refrain from swiping at people on internet forums when you feel they haven't maintained scientific purity in the discussion. A quick search of your posts shows this pattern. Your day job coworkers must love you.



    I disagree, they are quite intuitive about their equipment and certainly more knowledgable about performance than the enthusiast, but it's understandable that someone like you would want to devalue the observations of faster riders in the face of engineering calculations. It's how your ego protects you from feelings of inadequacy that arise when you get involved with sports. Product testing and rider feedback on the race circuit is a waste of time in your mind, i assume?

    The op is a competitive dh rider, and i was relaying reports from other competitive dh riders about rim width. Pretty valuable and relevant to the topic, if you're the "ignorant" sort who actually races bikes, like we are. Maybe you aren't, and that's ok. You might consider just cordially proposing why my particular observation didn't make sense mathematically, since that's your happy place.

    Thing is, this is a fairly simple concept i'm trying (for the third time) to relay: That gravity tire designs (think minions) don't jive with super wide rims, specifically because the slight change in shape causes the drift channel to not perform as intended and the tire loses bite. Maybe you can't ride fast enough to experience this for yourself, but i'm sure you could do something constructive, like run a matlab simulation.
    lmao

    Quote Originally Posted by jlf1200 View Post
    i think this post is the most telling for this (very long) thread.

    Lots of people are calling for experience to trump theory here, so i'll just relay my anecdotal experience: All the guys i know who rave about super wide rims are xc and "light trail" riders, mostly on 29ers. All the guys i know who are calling bs on the "hype" are serious descenders, cat 1 dh and enduro guys, etc. The latter group invariably says they hate that the width closes up the drift patch of their tires. The former group mostly doesn't even know what a drift patch is or what it does, and wouldn't ride a tire with such a feature anyway because they tend to roll really slowly. This is just my little world, but it's 100% consistent so far.

    I don't have the money to experiment with 38mm wide carbon rims, so this is all i have to go off of. And what it seems like to me is that there are advantages and disadvantages to riding giant width rims (gasp!). Width seems to work out for guys whose average trail speeds are lower, who ride tires with rounder profiles and smaller side lugs. Whereas it seems to bother guys who are leaning their bikes over more because of the speed they carry, (and it's worth noting that a huge percentage of these guys are riding minions or minion clones like butchers, or high rollers, or something that looks like it's designed to shovel dirt sideways at 30mph).

    Someone else just pointed out that most of the "wide" rims the pro dh and enduro riders are using are still within the 25mm internal width zone. Makes sense, no?
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  88. #288
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    I rode minions on the new Ibis 41MM wide rims. It was almost like the outside knobs were pointing straight up instead of out to the side. Probably good for people who ride most of the time straight up and down.....
    friends don't let friends Fred

  89. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    Ah, now I see what sort of troll you are: the angry engineer, high analytical intelligence, low emotional intelligence, can't refrain from swiping at people on internet forums when you feel they haven't maintained scientific purity in the discussion. A quick search of your posts shows this pattern. Your day job coworkers must love you.
    They do. Unlike you, I'm not so desperate that I feel compelled to search your background to dream up insults. I'd suggest your time is better spent improving your vocabulary.

    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    I disagree, they are quite intuitive about their equipment and certainly more knowledgable about performance than the enthusiast, but it's understandable that someone like you would want to devalue the observations of faster riders in the face of engineering calculations.
    I'm not sure what "engineering calculations" you are speaking of nor "the observations of faster riders". I have seen no examples of either.

    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    It's how your ego ...
    Look who's talking. If there's anything that can be counted on, it's remedial posters who shout "troll", hurl insults, and project their own inadequacies on others when they don't get their way. It's your ego that's the problem here.

    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    The OP is a competitive DH rider, and I was relaying reports from other competitive DH riders about rim width.
    I've followed this thread since the beginning and don't need your help in forming an opinion of the OP's position nor do I have any reason to trust that you were "relaying" anyone's opinion. What are you? The official spokesman for professional downhill riders?

    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    ...that gravity tire designs (think Minions) don't jive with super wide rims, specifically because the slight change in shape causes the drift channel to not perform as intended and the tire loses bite.
    But you have no evidence that this is true generally, if true at all, as opposed to being true only for a select few tires nor can you possibly know what has been tested for these people you claim to be "relaying" information for...plus you've admitted to having no experience with this yourself nor do you intend to gain any. Your opinion is less interesting than everyone else's.

    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    Maybe you can't ride fast enough to experience this for yourself, but I'm sure you could do something constructive, like run a MATLAB simulation.
    Ah yes, the old "your don't agree because you are an inferior rider" argument. Another classic that the ignorant trot out.

    Just think...if you knew what an anecdote was all this could have been avoided. A high school education is a wonderful thing.

  90. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    It was yesterday's sluggish handling, wheel flopping, pedal crushing nightmare, because other changes had to be made for it to work properly. Those changes were made, people learned and now it works great.
    Like what exactly? What changes were made to get a low BB to reduce pedal strikes? What changes were made to make a longer FC fit the same rider? All that's changed is fork offset.

    When the Tallboy first came out it took a beating here from many posters for its "too low" BB. Now it's not only not "too low", it's not even low if you believe a post made just today in another thread. Face it, it's popular opinion that's changed on this, nothing technical. "Long, low, and slack" is a trend, not a technical development.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    JLF1200 is correct. The DH and Enduro people aren't embracing this yet, because it doesn't work for them.
    You are not agreeing with his position. He claims they don't "embrace" it because it doesn't work...period. There is no "yet" in his claim, there is only speculation why we "slow riders" can't understand why wide rims are bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    It's just going to take some time till the tire makers can make tires for these wide rims.
    That's very likely a reason, but also time to learn how to take advantage of new capabilities. Given time and resources, DH riders will want to take advantage of additional traction, not intentionally do without it.

    There is another active thread here where a specialized tire engineer says that tires are designed with only one target rim width and that varying that width does have significant effects in this regard. Those same tire designers work to make cornering grip progressive and will have to adapt as rim changes improve traction at the limits. It's a good problem to have despite what some "fast riders" think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    I rode minions on the new Ibis 41MM wide rims. It was almost like the outside knobs were pointing straight up instead of out to the side. Probably good for people who ride most of the time straight up and down.....
    Another rider who thinks that how a tire looks when it's not touching the ground determines how it performs. You think a tire maintains it's perfect, curved profile when it's in contact with the ground?

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    That's very likely a reason, but also time to learn how to take advantage of new capabilities. Given time and resources, DH riders will want to take advantage of additional traction, not intentionally do without it.

    There is another active thread here where a specialized tire engineer says that tires are designed with only one target rim width and that varying that width does have significant effects in this regard. Those same tire designers work to make cornering grip progressive and will have to adapt as rim changes improve traction at the limits. It's a good problem to have despite what some "fast riders" think.
    Just as an aside I run a tallboy and a jet rdo, and the BB height makes them pretty different bikes for me.

    I'm aware of one tyre designer on this forum, and mostly he's ignored on this thread - on the basis of him knowing **** loads more than me on the topic, his is the opinion that I take most from.

    One disadvantage that engineers have, is they tend to ignore behavioural aspects or reviews. There is lot to be learnt from anecdote but a little thought has to go into it sometimes to seperate causes from anecdotal observation.

    As far as downhill goes, it's reasonable that tyre design effects wide rim usage more than any pros or cons of wide rims. BUT, joe public will never hear results of in field testing between bike manufacturers and riders unless it agrees with their marketing stance .

    No better example than specializeds 29er test on youtube. It's a mistake to assume it's faked, but you are only seeing it because it agreed with their aims - if it had gone the other way, cutting room floor. The filter is as important as the experiment itself.

    For us and this topic, the Mtb press is the filter - as they are with other current trends like wide bars, short stems , 27.5, and whatever else is cool this season.

    Where critical thinking becomes cynicism though is non too obvious

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    Don't say wide rims don't work unless you've tried them, bottom line. Wide rims, (carbon) are a game changer. I use to have 3 sets of medium width, (25.5) aluminum wheelsets. After I destroyed another aluminum rim, I gave light bikes 33 wide carbons a try. They were such a huge improvement, that I eventually changed all 3 wheel sets. I now have 2 sets of the 33's and 1 set of 38's (for DH). I'm not a pro, but I've been riding and racing Motocross and mountain bikes (DH) on and off since I was a kid and I'm not slow DH. 2 of my riding buddies have now made the switch and they have the had same great experiences, all positive, zero negatives. You can run lower pressures, (tubless) because of the higher volumes, the tire conforms to the trail, like in high speed corners, the sidewall is better supported and doesn't roll like it does on a skinny rim, carbon is much stiffer and the wheel holds a line better....I could go on and on, it's the single best improvement I've made to any of my bikes other than suspension for the first time in the early 90's.
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    I tend to agree that perceptions in many ways change much more than technical reality. Compare my 2003 GF Mt. Tam 29er, which in this forum is characterized as a "twitchy school bus with old school geometry" to current XC 29ers that are "dialed active and flickable fun machines" and you find little difference, except of course for the words used to describe them.
    I also agree that it takes riders (including pros) time to adapt to any innovation and invariably there are TONS of haters on the front end... like there were for suspension, clipless pedals, disc brakes, large volume tires, 29ers... the list goes on and on.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Another rider who thinks that how a tire looks when it's not touching the ground determines how it performs. You think a tire maintains it's perfect, curved profile when it's in contact with the ground?
    And you think performance isn't affected when the orientation of the side lugs changes a visible amount?

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Like what exactly? What changes were made to get a low BB to reduce pedal strikes? What changes were made to make a longer FC fit the same rider? All that's changed is fork offset.

    That just goes to show, you don't know what you're talking about.

    You are not agreeing with his position. He claims they don't "embrace" it because it doesn't work...period. There is no "yet" in his claim, there is only speculation why we "slow riders" can't understand why wide rims are bad.

    You're just grasping at straws now. If you ask him, I'm pretty sure he believes that someday they will embrace wide rims.


    That's very likely a reason, but also time to learn how to take advantage of new capabilities. Given time and resources, DH riders will want to take advantage of additional traction, not intentionally do without it.

    There is another active thread here where a specialized tire engineer says that tires are designed with only one target rim width and that varying that width does have significant effects in this regard. Those same tire designers work to make cornering grip progressive and will have to adapt as rim changes improve traction at the limits. It's a good problem to have despite what some "fast riders" think.

    No **** Sherlock!

    No **** Sherlock!

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    (moved to appropriate thread)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    The only explanation for craigsj flipping out over my crime of using the wrong word (or whatever) is that he's a sad troll. I'm not even sure he has a dog in this fight, because I seriously doubt he's ever raced down a mountain on a bicycle in any competive fashion, nor is it likely that he's drifted a tire like a Minion at high speed, so he probably has no idea about the performance issue I'm even referring to.

    I'm not a zealot, I would love to get my hands on some giant rims. The positive reviews can't be ignored and certainly aren't hype. I pretty much live to lay my bike over at speed and it seems like wider rims could provide performance advantages in that regard. However, I also can't ignore the consistent complaints I hear, both directly from other DH racers and reports from pros (such as Jill Kintner) that wide rims don't do good things to their preferred tires, usually tires with drift patch designs, such as Minions.

    All I'm saying is these gravity tire designs and the new wider rim designs don't seem to be a great match. And it makes sense that people who ride slower, (I mean "slower" literally, XC riders and the like), wouldn't see these negative effects, nor would they even be riding a tire designed to drift at high speed anyway, so they won't see these negative aspects.

    Nobody should take insult from that line of reasoning. I'm just offering a possible explanation for why I'm hearing conflicting reports from two different types of rider.
    Just wait about a year and the tire companies will catch up. In my opinion, they are going to find that a slightly narrower tire will work best. The wide rims seem to work better with a slightly narrower tire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    No **** Sherlock!
    The only explanation for craigsj flipping out over my crime of using the wrong word (or whatever) is that he's a sad troll. I'm not even sure he has a dog in this fight, because I seriously doubt he's ever raced down a mountain on a bicycle in any competive fashion, nor is it likely that he's drifted a tire like a Minion at high speed, so he probably has no idea about the performance issue I'm even referring to.

    I'm not a zealot, I would love to get my hands on some giant rims. The positive reviews can't be ignored and certainly aren't hype. I pretty much live to lay my bike over at speed and it seems like wider rims could provide performance advantages in that regard. However, I also can't ignore the consistent complaints I hear, both directly from other DH racers and reports from pros (such as Jill Kintner) that wide rims don't do good things to their preferred tires, usually tires with drift patch designs, such as Minions.

    All I'm saying is these gravity tire designs and the new wider rim designs don't seem to be a great match. And it makes sense that people who ride slower, (I mean "slower" literally, XC riders and the like), wouldn't see these negative effects, nor would they even be riding a tire designed to drift at high speed anyway, so they won't see these negative aspects.

    Nobody should take insult from that line of reasoning. I'm just offering a possible explanation for why I'm hearing conflicting reports from two different types of rider.

  100. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    Don't say wide rims don't work unless you've tried them, bottom line..
    So you've been charged by the police, only going to use an attorney who's been inside?

    Want to build a house, are you going to choose a builder to do design work rather than an architect?

    How about, you need a truck built, obviously a truck driver would be the place you'd start?

    Seriously, one of the greatest certainties in this consumer world is that someone who bought something loves it, and recommends it - the only other option is for them to admit they made a mistake and were wrong ( in which case you'll notice they blame the manufacturer or someone else) . You may think that admitting mistakes comes easy, but look at your work colleagues etc - everyone loves their own decisions, hence feedback from happy purchasers is pretty much useless.

  101. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post
    So you've been charged by the police, only going to use an attorney who's been inside?

    Want to build a house, are you going to choose a builder to do design work rather than an architect?

    How about, you need a truck built, obviously a truck driver would be the place you'd start?

    Seriously, one of the greatest certainties in this consumer world is that someone who bought something loves it, and recommends it - the only other option is for them to admit they made a mistake and were wrong ( in which case you'll notice they blame the manufacturer or someone else) . You may think that admitting mistakes comes easy, but look at your work colleagues etc - everyone loves their own decisions, hence feedback from happy purchasers is pretty much useless.


    WTF are you talking about??? You are seriously out of your mind man! Just stop. Everything you just said made no sense and does not relate to what I said or have experienced.
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    nvm
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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    Hi Folks,
    OP here..just saying hi again. I still am subscribed to the thread and always look forward to seeing where the discussion goes. (Still regretting I didn't put 'Downhill' in the Thread Subject, BTW)

    Here's where I still stand for 2015 downhill riding/racing: I'm going in to a second year with the DT Swiss FR600 (inner 25mm, outer 32mm). I'm also still going to run 2.5" width Maxxis tires for dry or mixed conditions. Most often this will be the Minion DHF and DHR2 (3c). On rare occasion, there are conditions where I use the High Roller 2.5" 60a in the rear. For mud I use Continental Mud King 2.3 with the center lugs cut just a bit. These tires/rims match very well and the tire flexes predictably on the DT FR600 when I have proper pressures. I run tubeless in the front, with relatively low pressures and no burping problems. I use a Welterweight tube in the rear, and I did not have any pinch flats on the rear tire during the 5 or 6 races I competed in last year. From my perspective this spec is working well for me, and from a race results standpoint I achieved what I was hoping for. Note: I am rebuilding the rear wheel for 2015; the FR600 is a bit soft and light for my 190 pound riding weight and style.

    With that said:

    What are the options for a wide, downhill spec rim in 27.5" diameter?

    Does anyone know if DH compound tires that are specifically designed for these wider rims at a 27.5" diameter are in the 'works'?

    (At this point in the evolution of the DH Wheel/Tire system - it seems like if you're going to change rims to get faster, you should probably upsize diameter)

    Cheers,
    Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    Don't say wide rims don't work unless you've tried them, bottom line. Wide rims, (carbon) are a game changer. I use to have 3 sets of medium width, (25.5) aluminum wheelsets. After I destroyed another aluminum rim, I gave light bikes 33 wide carbons a try. They were such a huge improvement, that I eventually changed all 3 wheel sets. I now have 2 sets of the 33's and 1 set of 38's (for DH). I'm not a pro, but I've been riding and racing Motocross and mountain bikes (DH) on and off since I was a kid and I'm not slow DH. 2 of my riding buddies have now made the switch and they have the had same great experiences, all positive, zero negatives. You can run lower pressures, (tubless) because of the higher volumes, the tire conforms to the trail, like in high speed corners, the sidewall is better supported and doesn't roll like it does on a skinny rim, carbon is much stiffer and the wheel holds a line better....I could go on and on, it's the single best improvement I've made to any of my bikes other than suspension for the first time in the early 90's.
    You're coming in hot!

    So, super-duper wide rims give you the stoke. Good to hear that, it helps others who are struggling with the decision to invest. But 29er trail bikes made a lot of mountain bikers happy when they got popular, too, and even though the converts jumped on the interweb to excitedly proclaim big wheels were a GAME CHANGER, and used phrases like "bottom line" and "end of story," just like you are now, the truth was much more nuanced: some people preferred smaller wheels, and there are demonstrable, performance related reasons why one would have such a preference. Just like there are demonstrable reasons why certain riders would hesitate to adopt giant rims for their DH or enduro bikes with today's tire offerings. A lot of them are sticking with 25mm-29mm inner width for a reason.

    Perhaps the overall trend will be towards big rims, or maybe it will be like the big wheel thing and it will settle into preferences, or maybe it's just another cycle of experimentation like the one that happened 10 years ago (yes, wide rims have been GAME CHANGERS before, too). Either way, you're dropping the mic a little too early.

  105. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldranger View Post
    Hi Folks,
    OP here..just saying hi again. I still am subscribed to the thread and always look forward to seeing where the discussion goes. (Still regretting I didn't put 'Downhill' in the Thread Subject, BTW)

    Here's where I still stand for 2015 downhill riding/racing: I'm going in to a second year with the DT Swiss FR600 (inner 25mm, outer 32mm). I'm also still going to run 2.5" width Maxxis tires for dry or mixed conditions. Most often this will be the Minion DHF and DHR2 (3c). On rare occasion, there are conditions where I use the High Roller 2.5" 60a in the rear. For mud I use Continental Mud King 2.3 with the center lugs cut just a bit. These tires/rims match very well and the tire flexes predictably on the DT FR600 when I have proper pressures. I run tubeless in the front, with relatively low pressures and no burping problems. I use a Welterweight tube in the rear, and I did not have any pinch flats on the rear tire during the 5 or 6 races I competed in last year. From my perspective this spec is working well for me, and from a race results standpoint I achieved what I was hoping for. Note: I am rebuilding the rear wheel for 2015; the FR600 is a bit soft and light for my 190 pound riding weight and style.

    With that said:

    What are the options for a wide, downhill spec rim in 27.5" diameter?

    Does anyone know if DH compound tires that are specifically designed for these wider rims at a 27.5" diameter are in the 'works'?

    (At this point in the evolution of the DH Wheel/Tire system - it seems like if you're going to change rims to get faster, you should probably upsize diameter)

    Cheers,
    Andy

    I would give Light Bikes, Derby or Ibis rims a try, they all make wide carbon rims. Light Bikes makes a DH specific rim and it's not a bad price for a carbon rim. As for tires try what you like and see how it is.
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    I didn't think Derby and Ibis made a DH version of their wide carbon rims. Doesn't mean you can't ride "down-hill" on them. Just means nobody will be surprised if/when they explode. LB makes a heavier rim they call "DH," it's the same weight as some of the Derby offerings I think, and their rims explode regularly, but at least they're a cheaper experiment.

    As for a competent 27.5" DH tire that is designed for an inner rim width outside of the 2xmm range... that doesn't exist to my knowledge.

    [edit]
    Another thing to consider is that these are mostly hookless designs. A rim manufacturer PM'd me and mentioned that typical DH tire pressures don't do so well on hookless rims. So if you're running in the 30-40psi range, something to watch out for.

    (Yes, I understand that wide rims allow for lower pressure. Good DH riders need pressure. Nobody can execute a competitive run at these punter numbers I keep seeing on wide rim threads. The wheels wouldn't survive, and the riders might not either.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    You're coming in hot!

    So, super-duper wide rims give you the stoke. Good to hear that, it helps others who are struggling with the decision to invest. But 29er trail bikes made a lot of mountain bikers happy when they got popular, too, and even though the converts jumped on the interweb to excitedly proclaim big wheels were a GAME CHANGER, and used phrases like "bottom line" and "end of story," just like you are now, the truth was much more nuanced: some people preferred smaller wheels, and there are demonstrable, performance related reasons why one would have such a preference. Just like there are demonstrable reasons why certain riders would hesitate to adopt giant rims for their DH or enduro bikes with today's tire offerings. A lot of them are sticking with 25mm-29mm inner width for a reason.

    Perhaps the overall trend will be towards big rims, or maybe it will be like the big wheel thing and it will settle into preferences, or maybe it's just another cycle of experimentation like the one that happened 10 years ago (yes, wide rims have been GAME CHANGERS before, too). Either way, you're dropping the mic a little too early.


    Hahahaha, dropping the mic a little early, that was funny. Just to be clear though, I don't follow trends. I still run 26" and I probably always will, I don't run super wide straight bars, mine are 700 wide with 40 rise, carbon. I run what works for me and and I don't run or keep stuff if its not an improvement. I don't change just because the industry or a magazine says its better unless, I've tried it and I agree. Anyway, as for wide carbon rims, try it for your yourself and I think you will agree, they are pretty f-ing awesome.
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  108. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldranger View Post
    Hi Folks,
    OP here..just saying hi again. I still am subscribed to the thread and always look forward to seeing where the discussion goes. (Still regretting I didn't put 'Downhill' in the Thread Subject, BTW)

    Here's where I still stand for 2015 downhill riding/racing: I'm going in to a second year with the DT Swiss FR600 (inner 25mm, outer 32mm). I'm also still going to run 2.5" width Maxxis tires for dry or mixed conditions. Most often this will be the Minion DHF and DHR2 (3c). On rare occasion, there are conditions where I use the High Roller 2.5" 60a in the rear. For mud I use Continental Mud King 2.3 with the center lugs cut just a bit. These tires/rims match very well and the tire flexes predictably on the DT FR600 when I have proper pressures. I run tubeless in the front, with relatively low pressures and no burping problems. I use a Welterweight tube in the rear, and I did not have any pinch flats on the rear tire during the 5 or 6 races I competed in last year. From my perspective this spec is working well for me, and from a race results standpoint I achieved what I was hoping for. Note: I am rebuilding the rear wheel for 2015; the FR600 is a bit soft and light for my 190 pound riding weight and style.

    With that said:

    What are the options for a wide, downhill spec rim in 27.5" diameter?

    Does anyone know if DH compound tires that are specifically designed for these wider rims at a 27.5" diameter are in the 'works'?

    (At this point in the evolution of the DH Wheel/Tire system - it seems like if you're going to change rims to get faster, you should probably upsize diameter)

    Cheers,
    Andy

    I am still trying to find something in 650b that is like the 26 WTB Laserdisc (they were made pretty tough and resistant to dents.. Do you know if the DT FR 570 uses similar alloy as those FR 600 rims?

    I still need to look into the Alex offerings also
    video=youtube;][/video]...

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    Derby makes a HD carbon rim.

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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    I didn't think Derby and Ibis made a DH version of their wide carbon rims. Doesn't mean you can't ride "down-hill" on them. Just means nobody will be surprised if/when they explode. LB makes a heavier rim they call "DH," it's the same weight as some of the Derby offerings I think, and their rims explode regularly, but at least they're a cheaper experiment.
    I think the "DOWNHILL" Derby rims are probably meant for downhill.

    What's "punter pressure" and how often is "regularly" when you're talking about the explosion of LB rims? Both seem on their face like smug, douchey comments, FWIW.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    I think the "DOWNHILL" Derby rims are probably meant for downhill.
    Sounds like a reasonable assumption, LOL. Thanks for doing the hard work of actually navigating to his website.

    What's "punter pressure" and how often is "regularly" when you're talking about the explosion of LB rims? Both seem on their face like smug, douchey comments, FWIW.
    DISCLAIMER: I am still responding to the OP, wherein the context of DH riding and racing was referenced. (Maybe this should be a permanent disclaimer).

    LB rims blow up more often than a DH staple like a Mavic 729. One might say "regularly." Sure, they're carbon, but that's not a common rim material to DH folks, so calling out their known explosivity in relation to alloy rims seemed appropriate. Is that smug and douchey? Not sure why. Sorrynotsorry.

    Punter pressure means "not enough." Pretty common to run 30psi-35psi on rowdy stuff. PSI in the teens would qualify as punter.

    I guess it's not cool to use the word 'punter'? Meh. It's stolen from skiing, but it means the same thing: someone who doesn't know what they're doing. Low tire pressure, soft forks, stiff/underdamped shocks, etc. Punter. Ya know? Maybe you don't know. Either way, not sure why you're offended. Are you racing DH on tires inflated to 17psi?
    Last edited by JLF1200; 01-08-2015 at 04:23 PM. Reason: brevity

  112. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    Sounds like a reasonable assumption, LOL. Thanks for doing the hard work of actually navigating to his website.



    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    DISCLAIMER: I am still responding to the OP, wherein the context of DH riding and racing was referenced. (Maybe this should be a permanent disclaimer).

    LB rims blow up more often than a DH staple like a Mavic 729. One might say "regularly." Sure, they're carbon, but that's not a common rim material to DH folks, so calling out their known explosivity in relation to alloy rims seemed appropriate. Is that smug and douchey? Not sure why. Sorrynotsorry.
    Well... I don't know how you know any of this... pretty sure you don't actually... so it's all speculation, which is douchey. The smugness is the part where you think you know something you don't and proclaim it as truth.

    I've seen DH riders trash rims... stout ass rims... more than any other kind of rider... more rims per rider all day long, so I'm not sure I even believe the premise that LB rims blow up more often than 729s.
    LB doesn't even make make a "DH" rim... so you're comparing a beast DH aluminum rim to a carbon XC/trail rim?
    "One might say 'regularly'?"
    One might also say rarely... most of they people riding them would say never, since for the vast majority of users they have blown up zero times. Zero extrapolates to never in maths.

    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    Punter pressure means "not enough." Pretty common to run 30psi-35psi on rowdy stuff. PSI in the teens would qualify as punter.

    I guess it's not cool to use the word 'punter'? Meh. It's stolen from skiing, but it means the same thing: someone who doesn't know what they're doing. Low tire pressure, soft forks, stiff/underdamped shocks, etc. Punter. Ya know? Maybe you don't know. Either way, not sure why you're offended. Are you racing DH on tires inflated to 17psi?
    Not offended... just clarifying. I kind of like the term, actually.
    Not knowing what one is doing and doing something different than you (or even most people) is an important distinction, I think.
    Anyway... not here for a pissing match at all. Carry on.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Well... I don't know how you know any of this... pretty sure you don't actually... so it's all speculation, which is douchey. The smugness is the part where you think you know something you don't and proclaim it as truth.

    I've seen DH riders trash rims... stout ass rims... more than any other kind of rider... more rims per rider all day long, so I'm not sure I even believe the premise that LB rims blow up more often than 729s.
    Sigh. I've been doing this a while. A 729 is the cement truck of rims. Lacing it up with straight gauge spokes is the standard for 'indestructible'. It's what you ride if you DGAF about your times or if you're a hulking clyde or just sick of wrecking wheels... They're about 700g and you can basically beat them back into shape if you stack one up. In my shop(s) I've trued and bent so many 729s back from the dead it's hilarious. The LB rim threads are littered with angry people who swear they just looked at a rock funny and cracked their rims, and those aren't coming back. Actually, I think I've never been at a weekend race with*out* seeing detonated carbon wheels-- it happens "regularly," you might say.

    I could certainly be biased due to the nature of the failures, however. Alloy rims failures are easy to miss. Carbon failure... is hard to miss. kaBOOM.

    I'd also wouldn't be surprised if lab strength tests would favor carbon rims. Their stiffness might be the reason for real world failures. I'm just guessing there, obviously.

    [edit]
    I suppose it's also possible that carbon actually wears hits better than alloy and then fails suddenly, and in grander fashion. Either way, it's not uncommon for bruisers to run a 729 for years, with all kinds of battle scars. It's inconceivable to me that those guys could have carried a carbon wheel as far.

    LB doesn't even make make a "DH" rim... so you're comparing a beast DH aluminum rim to a carbon XC/trail rim?
    I think the LB "DH" rims are probably meant for DH.

    "One might say 'regularly'?"
    One might also say rarely... most of they people riding them would say never, since for the vast majority of users they have blown up zero times. Zero extrapolates to never in maths.
    So how much exactly is "vast," when it comes to rim failure? I see what you're saying, though. LB rims might blow up, but not much in comparison to the LB rims that don't blow up. In fact, if we just ignore all the failures, it's pretty much a perfect record!

    Not offended... just clarifying. I kind of like the term, actually.
    Not knowing what one is doing and doing something different than you (or even most people) is an important distinction, I think.
    Anyway... not here for a pissing match at all. Carry on.
    Yes, well now you're veering into relativism. I can get behind that to a point. Jared Graves runs narrow bars (740mm) because he's doing it differently. A punter puts 17psi in his DH tires because he's doing it wrong.

    And I do appreciate the jabs. Not trying to piss anywhere, either.

  114. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    Sigh. I've been doing this a while.
    You're not the only one.
    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    A 729 is[...]
    I know what a 729 is... that was kind of my point.
    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    The LB rim threads are littered with angry people who swear they just looked at a rock funny and cracked their rims, and those aren't coming back. Actually, I think I've never been at a weekend race with*out* seeing detonated carbon wheels-- it happens "regularly," you might say
    There's reality and then there's rhetoric.
    Not gonna split hairs over what "littered" means in a statistical sense, but if your gut feel from the threads you happen to have read is what you mean, that's what I figured and all I need to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    I think the LB "DH" rims are probably meant for DH.
    Touche... how does that happen?!? Gotta concede hilarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    So how much exactly is "vast," when it comes to rim failure? I see what you're saying, though. LB rims might blow up, but not much in comparison to the LB rims that don't blow up. In fact, if we just ignore all the failures, it's pretty much a perfect record!
    Not saying it is a perfect record... not saying I know... you said "regularly" and the fact is you don't know. One fact is that I've seen many more 729s flat spotted and out of true than LB rims. Does that mean anything? Nope... and neither does "regularly."
    That's all I'm saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    Yes, well now you're veering into relativism. I can get behind that to a point. Jared Graves runs narrow bars (740mm) because he's doing it differently. A punter puts 17psi in his DH tires because he's doing it wrong.
    Would you say a punter punts 17psi in his DH tires?
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

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    After all that, I should add that I'm seriously considering building a set of LB DH wheels up, just in case I was giving the impression that I'm some sort of zealot. I'm not. However, I'm not doing it for the width, I'm more interested in the stiffness, especially in hard leans.

  116. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Not gonna split hairs over what "littered" means in a statistical sense, but if your gut feel from the threads you happen to have read is what you mean, that's what I figured and all I need to know.
    I could restate it. My observations in real world racing scenarios seem consistent with my observations online: carbon mountain bike wheels crack, fail and blow up a fair amount. But (as I said before), there are possible sources of bias. Carbon fails spectacularly, alloy can do it quietly sometimes. And people get angry when their bling wheels detonate, which causes them to write angry forum posts. If you detonate a 729, well... there's probably a good story, and you're probably not writing a post about the rim.

  117. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    I could restate it. My observations in real world racing scenarios seem consistent with my observations online: carbon mountain bike wheels crack, fail and blow up a fair amount. But (as I said before), there are possible sources of bias. Carbon fails spectacularly, alloy can do it quietly sometimes. And people get angry when their bling wheels detonate, which causes them to write angry forum posts. If you detonate a 729, well... there's probably a good story, and you're probably not writing a post about the rim.
    Funny stuff man. Around here, everybody including racers are on or going to wider carbon hoops, 27.5, 29, whatever. Plain and simple, they are stiff. That's all.


    EBenke

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    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    I could restate it.
    Of course you can... but why?
    I've seen many more taco'ed al rims than blown up carbon... I've also seen slow-fail carbon ridden for 15-20 miles or more to finish a race... it doesn't explode every time.
    Different experiences... which is why experience is a poor basis for deciding how things always are. If that fact could be realized the server space that mtbr occupies would probably fit on a flash drive.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  119. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Of course you can... but why?
    I've seen many more taco'ed al rims than blown up carbon... I've also seen slow-fail carbon ridden for 15-20 miles or more to finish a race... it doesn't explode every time.
    Different experiences... which is why experience is a poor basis for deciding how things always are.
    Same here. Currently carbon is winning in my book. Just last week my alloy seat stay on my STJ FSR snapped. Warranty is replacing it with carbon, and I like it!


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  120. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebenke View Post
    Same here. Currently carbon is winning in my book. Just last week my alloy seat stay on my STJ FSR snapped. Warranty is replacing it with carbon, and I like it!


    EBenke

    I'll add that I've never had or seen a carbon rim "explode" or even have a catastrophic failure. I cracked the rear of my first set of 33 wides, (it was an early version and it had regular hooked beads, the new ones are hookless and have thicker side walls where the tire bead rests and they are much stronger). It had been abused for months at Mammoth Bike Park, Snow Summit bike park and my local DH in So Cal. When it did crack, it made a pop sound and leaked a small amount of sealant. It still held air, was still true and I rode it six miles back to my truck and I stopped babying it after a mile or so. LB warrantied it and sent me a new hookless version, it cost me $40.00 for shipping from China to So Cal, cheaper than a new aluminum rim would have been. No problems with the next set of 33's or 38's since then.
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    I'll add that I've never had or seen a carbon rim "explode" or even have a catastrophic failure. I cracked the rear of my first set of 33 wides, (it was an early version and it had regular hooked beads, the new ones are hookless and have thicker side walls where the tire bead rests and they are much stronger). It had been abused for months at Mammoth Bike Park, Snow Summit bike park and my local DH in So Cal. When it did crack, it made a pop sound and leaked a small amount of sealant. It still held air, was still true and I rode it six miles back to my truck and I stopped babying it after a mile or so. LB warrantied it and sent me a new hookless version, it cost me $40.00 for shipping from China to So Cal, cheaper than a new aluminum rim would have been. No problems with the next set of 33's or 38's since then.
    Did you get your wheels from Cyclogical?


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  122. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebenke View Post
    Did you get your wheels from Cyclogical?


    EBenke
    No, I got the rims directly from LB. I already had Hope Pro 2 EVO's from my old wheelsets. My LBS laced them up to DT Super Comps and aluminum nipples.
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  123. #323
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    Would one of the proponents of wide DH rims please take a few pictures of your bike and post it? Also please specify the inner width of the rim. I'm curious, because I just don't see these kind of things at the places I ride. It would also be awesome to know if you are a sponsored rider.

  124. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldranger View Post
    Would one of the proponents of wide DH rims please take a few pictures of your bike and post it? Also please specify the inner width of the rim. I'm curious, because I just don't see these kind of things at the places I ride. It would also be awesome to know if you are a sponsored rider.
    Not a proponent and not my bike, but here's one if you can look past the wheel diameter:
    (inner width 27.5mm, conveniently )


    I'm sure you know the FR600 (you might be able to say how many DH World Cups have been won on this rim... I don't know), which has an internal width of 26.5mm (not crazy wide, but above the ideal range according to you):


    Here's the >30mm internal LB rims, just cuz this Banshee is sick:
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  125. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldranger View Post
    Would one of the proponents of wide DH rims please take a few pictures of your bike and post it? Also please specify the inner width of the rim. I'm curious, because I just don't see these kind of things at the places I ride. It would also be awesome to know if you are a sponsored rider.

    Here are a few of mine. The 33 wide are 27 internal and my 38's are 32 inside. My wife sponsor's me.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Wide Rims?  Don't believe the hype...-image.jpg  

    Wide Rims?  Don't believe the hype...-image.jpg  

    Wide Rims?  Don't believe the hype...-image.jpg  

    Wide Rims?  Don't believe the hype...-image.jpg  

    Wide Rims?  Don't believe the hype...-image.jpg  

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  126. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    Sounds like a reasonable assumption, LOL. Thanks for doing the hard work of actually navigating to his website.



    DISCLAIMER: I am still responding to the OP, wherein the context of DH riding and racing was referenced. (Maybe this should be a permanent disclaimer).

    LB rims blow up more often than a DH staple like a Mavic 729. One might say "regularly." Sure, they're carbon, but that's not a common rim material to DH folks, so calling out their known explosivity in relation to alloy rims seemed appropriate.
    LB Rims have not held up well around here in Socal. Between three friends they have broken 11 rears in less than 12 months. None of them has broken a Derby yet. Definitely need to run higher pressures as the speeds go up especially on rocky courses. When racing I am running 25/30 in my Derby's and 21/27 for training. Even though carbon is tougher than aluminum, it is not indestructible.

  127. #327
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    Anyone with Derby's or NOX or LB tried the 2.5" Magic Mary? I want to hear your thoughts on this 2.5" tread.. also is there another similar wide tire out there that is closer to matching this wider rim format? 27.5" 2.5" Magic Mary seems like the closest match to the wide carbon rims that I've found so far.
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  128. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post
    Seriously, one of the greatest certainties in this consumer world is that someone who bought something loves it, and recommends it - the only other option is for them to admit they made a mistake and were wrong ( in which case you'll notice they blame the manufacturer or someone else) . You may think that admitting mistakes comes easy, but look at your work colleagues etc - everyone loves their own decisions, hence feedback from happy purchasers is pretty much useless.
    Yes, this is confirmation bias. But isn't no feedback at all the most useless?

    Feedback from dissatisfied consumers is likewise colored. Perhaps even moreso... you can love a product and say little, but if you hate a product, in 2015 it seems much more likely that you'll tell the world about it. Vigorously.

    So how do we make use of feedback? Trusted experts who are given equipment?

    Unpaid reviews only go so far, because manufacturers aren't likely to give more equipment to someone who once gave them a bad review, and many sources of information which are somewhere between blogs, forums and traditional media lack the funds to buy their own equipment to review.

    The best we can hope for on MTBR is everyone to share what they have, what they ride, where, how fast, and what they thought of the new equipment.

    We can then figure out on our own if the poster is someone whose opinion we would trust a little, a lot, or not at all.
    Last edited by ColinL; 01-09-2015 at 03:00 PM.

  129. #329
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    I just randomly poked my head in here again, and I see that civil discourse has broken out, LOL.

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    I just randomly poked my head in here again, and I see that civil discourse has broken out, LOL.
    That's because Craig went back to whatever wheel size debate he normally trolls and we started discussing wide, carbon rims again.

  131. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by JLF1200 View Post
    That's because Craig went back to whatever wheel size debate he normally trolls and we started discussing wide, carbon rims again.
    Proving once again that you're the king of civil discourse.

    Actually, I find your opinions so ignorant that I don't feel exposing them as such is of any service. It appears you aren't aware that others are engaging you in the same way. You're an ignorant groupie, nothing more.

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    I love you too, Craig. Good to see you're still lurking in the shadows.

    Shredman, can you maybe send some tire profile pics of your 38mm wide wheels, and list the tire mounted as well?

    We've been using the term "wide" to describe everything from 25mm to 32mm inner widths. My own concerns are with widths out of the 2xmm range (Derby and the newer LB).

  133. #333
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    These are Intense Edge 2.5's and they are huge, fairly light and have a good profile. I also have some Schwalbe Magic Mary's waiting to go on as well as some Minion DHF 2.5's. I run these with 22psi front and 28 in the rear. With that psi, they feel rock hard like they have 40psi in them, because of the large volume.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Wide Rims?  Don't believe the hype...-image.jpg  

    Wide Rims?  Don't believe the hype...-image.jpg  

    Wide Rims?  Don't believe the hype...-image.jpg  

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  134. #334
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    ^^Schwalbe's with thicker/SG were like that too.. casing can pretty much hold the weight of the bike, 0 psi they look like they're aired up



    Edit- This was on WTB laserdisc @ 26mm, i25 and DL31 @ 25mm
    Last edited by Deerhill; 01-11-2015 at 10:39 AM.
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  135. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Yes, this is confirmation bias. But isn't no feedback at all the most useless?

    Feedback from dissatisfied consumers is likewise colored. Perhaps even moreso... you can love a product and say little, but if you hate a product, in 2015 it seems much more likely that you'll tell the world about it. Vigorously.

    So how do we make use of feedback? Trusted experts who are given equipment?

    Unpaid reviews only go so far, because manufacturers aren't likely to give more equipment to someone who once gave them a bad review, and many sources of information which are somewhere between blogs, forums and traditional media lack the funds to buy their own equipment to review.

    The best we can hope for on MTBR is everyone to share what they have, what they ride, where, how fast, and what they thought of the new equipment.

    We can then figure out on our own if the poster is someone whose opinion we would trust a little, a lot, or not at all.
    It's all useful ColinL, as long as you have put some thought into it, and can give posts the right weight in the decision making process. It's the dogmatic posters who unfortunately confuse the situation though.

    The only thing that drew me to this thread was the significant number of people who had cracked carbon wide rims on rocks, and the association of that with running lower pressure than they did on normal alu rims. Those people have tended to blame the carbon rim quality/mold, when it really seems they are just running too low a pressure. If a few people read the discourse and then realise that there is a difference between setting pressure for burp prevention versus rim strike then that might save some rims from destruction.

  136. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post
    If a few people read the discourse and then realise that there is a difference between setting pressure for burp prevention versus rim strike then that might save some rims from destruction.
    Isn't that the truth. I've seen some absurdly low psi claims attributed to wide rims recently (10 psi on a 2.5" tire!). My pressures are limited by rim strikes, wider rims don't help there.

  137. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Isn't that the truth. I've seen some absurdly low psi claims attributed to wide rims recently (10 psi on a 2.5" tire!). My pressures are limited by rim strikes, wider rims don't help there.
    That's not true, a wider rim will help. In fact you can run lower pressures and get less rim strikes with a wider rim.

  138. #338
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    That is true, on my skinny aluminum rims, I had to run 35psi in the rear and 30 in the front to not get rim strikes/dings. With my wide carbon, 28psi in the rear and 22 front is all I need, and the tires, (regardless of brand) feel much harder with lower pressure and it's because of the larger air volume you get with wider rims.
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  139. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    That's not true, a wider rim will help. In fact you can run lower pressures and get less rim strikes with a wider rim.
    Explain how that can be.

  140. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    ...feel much harder with lower pressure and it's because of the larger air volume you get with wider rims.
    Two questions:

    1) How does larger air volume make something "feel much harder" despite having less pressure?

    2) Why would "feel" affect whether rim strikes occur?

    Bottoming out a shock on a given impact is a function of shock pressure, progressively, and shock travel. Same with a tire. Given that, how does a wider rim improve tire bottoming? Pressure is not increased (in fact, you are lowering it), progressively is not increased (it is lowered), and travel is not increased.

  141. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Two questions:

    1) How does larger air volume make something "feel much harder" despite having less pressure?

    2) Why would "feel" affect whether rim strikes occur?

    Bottoming out a shock on a given impact is a function of shock pressure, progressively, and shock travel. Same with a tire. Given that, how does a wider rim improve tire bottoming? Pressure is not increased (in fact, you are lowering it), progressively is not increased (it is lowered), and travel is not increased.
    I'm not an engineer, but I think because of the increased air volume, you have more air to cushion impacts. I think the main reason the tire feels harder is because the straighter, (verticle) sidewalls better support the tire, which leads to less rim strikes. But even with wide rims, you obviously can't run ridiculously low pressures especially for high speeds, without rim strikes.
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  142. #342
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    From Enve: their current Downhill rim (M90 Ten, $999 for the rim) has a 25mm internal width. Based on opinion from Outside (online) this was one of the products that revolutionized cycling in 2014.

    Still 25mm, just without the bead hooks.
    Enve Composites M90 Ten Wheels - Reviews, Comparisons, Specs - Mountain Bike Wheelsets - Vital MTB

  143. #343
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Explain how that can be.
    x2. Sounds counter intuitive.


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  144. #344
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    One of the 'bleeding edge' DH Race bikes of 2015 has rims with a 24mm internal width. It seems to me, that the move from 26" diameter to 27.5" diameter would have been the optimal time to also evaluate the benefits of a wider rim. Do you think maybe the engineers at Specialized didn't think about it?

    Price is clearly not a concern on a $9,000 bike.

    Specialized Bicycle Components

  145. #345
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by oldranger View Post
    Price is clearly not a concern on a $9,000 bike.

    Specialized Bicycle Components
    With Specialized price is always a concern. That's why they mix and match parts at all levels. I wouldn't put it past them.



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  146. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Explain how that can be.
    Well, it's kinda hard to explain. It's not just the air volumn. I'm not really sure there is enough air volumn change, if any, to make a difference. It's because the force being applied to the tire will be going down the sidewall from the edge of the rim to the tread, more evenly. This is why slightly narrower tires work best with wider rims. The wider rim makes the sidwall more perpendicular to the ground. As opposed to a narrow rim, where you have the rim and tire making an egg shape, the force being applied to the tire would go through the sidewall at an angle and at a much thinner section of the sidewall because the sidewall is no longer perpendicular the the ground. Look at it this way: envision how easy it is to grab a light bulb by the fat part and break it off, when it is screwed into a light fixture. Now envision how harder it would be to break a light bulb off if the base was just as wide as the fat part. It could easily take two or three times more force to break the light bulb off. If the sidwall is now in a much stronger position, you can run lower pressures. If I remember correctly Derby recommends 10% of your ridding weight + or - one psi.

    Another way to look at it. You can bench press more weight if your forearms are perpendicular to the ground and the bar, as opposed them being angled in towards the center of the bar. The arms are the sidewall in this example.

  147. #347
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Well, it's kinda hard to explain. It's not just the air volumn. I'm not really sure there is enough air volumn change, if any, to make a difference. It's because the force being applied to the tire will be going down the sidewall from the edge of the rim to the tread, more evenly. This is why slightly narrower tires work best with wider rims. The wider rim makes the sidwall more perpendicular to the ground. As opposed to a narrow rim, where you have the rim and tire making an egg shape, the force being applied to the tire would go through the sidewall at an angle and at a much thinner section of the sidewall because the sidewall is no longer perpendicular the the ground. Look at it this way: envision how easy it is to grab a light bulb by the fat part and break it off, when it is screwed in to a light fixture. Now envision how harder it would be to break a light bulb off if the base was just as wide as the fat part. It could easily take two or three times more force to break the light bulb off.
    Hmmm, might need a comparative diagram, a visual would be helpful.



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  148. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebenke View Post
    Hmmm, might need a comparative diagram, a visual would be helpful.



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    Wide rim tire sidewalls | |

    Narrow rim tire sidewalls / \
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  149. #349
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    Thanks. I don't know though given lower pressures if this would still be the case however.

    A direct impact is going to cause the tire to deform, regardless.


    EBenke

  150. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebenke View Post
    Hmmm, might need a comparative diagram, a visual would be helpful.



    EBenke
    I added another example above.

  151. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebenke View Post
    Thanks. I don't know though given lower pressures if this would still be the case however.

    A direct impact is going to cause the tire to deform, regardless.


    EBenke
    It works.

  152. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebenke View Post
    Thanks. I don't know though given lower pressures if this would still be the case however.

    A direct impact is going to cause the tire to deform, regardless.


    EBenke

    That's true, but it, (| |) won't distort as easily as (/ \). The more vertical sidewalls support the weight better.
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  153. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    That's true, but it, (| |) won't distort as easily as (/ \). The more vertical sidewalls support the weight better.
    This is true!

  154. #354
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    I would suggest that you guys read:

    WIDE rims

    Technical Scroll down a little.

  155. #355
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    Wide rim tire sidewalls | |

    Narrow rim tire sidewalls / \
    Perfect! I just mounted a 3.0 tire on a 19mm rim and pretty much got that shape - road in my yard only.

  156. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    I would suggest that you guys read:

    WIDE rims

    Technical Scroll down a little.
    Do you think Derby rims might have a bias to them?

    Edit - on their picture the tyre is now 1/60th bigger. So maybe you can run 29.5psi rather than 30psi? Is that your lower pressure?

    Just because something sounds sought of plausible doesn't make it true. Sidewalls have much importance in hysteresis and squirm, but if you have a square edge rock that has an area of 1 square inch as it contacts the tyre, 25psi is 25psi and the distance from outer tyre edge to rim is essentially the same whether it's 25psi or 20psi - but one will stand one fifth more force untill it hits the rim.

    Go an do the experiment if you are so confident. Find a nice gutter, sit down on the rear wheel and ride into it with your narrow rims at 30psi - reduce the psi by 2 and keep repeating till you feel the clunk of rim contact. Now go get your super wide carbon rim with the same sized tyre, drop the psi by 5 below your first contact and ride into the gutter again.

    Video the experience, if you have derby rims, this might be useful, because if you do happen to crack the rim, you can blackmail them by saying you'll upload the experiment to mtbr if they don't send you a replacement lol.

    I'll give you another thought, how much less pressure can you run on a fatbike without rim strikes? The reason for that is on that same gutter, that tyre will have twice the surface area of gutter edge to spread the load

  157. #357
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    Blah, blah , blah! I've spent some time on them and I know how they work. They are better in every way than narrow rims. Ray, the owner of Derby is a very upstanding and extremely honest person, with more experience then most of us put together. I have found that everything he has written or said is the truth. It soulds like to me, you're spending to much time in the gutter.

  158. #358
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    I am not questioning an individuals honesty. There's a billion or 2 people in this world who think the earths only 4 thousand years old - their heartfelt belief doesn't make it true though

  159. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post

    The only thing that drew me to this thread was the significant number of people who had cracked carbon wide rims on rocks, and the association of that with running lower pressure than they did on normal alu rims.
    What rims? And, were they hookless rims. I know one thing for a fact, they weren't Derby rims, which are hookless. The only other wide rim I would consider buying would be the Ibis rims.

  160. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post
    Do you think Derby rims might have a bias to them?
    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post
    I am not questioning an individuals honesty.
    What do you think the above statement implies? Dude, you need to shut your **** up, stop trolling here and go try a set. You sound like those stupid idiots that wouldn't shut up about how disc brakes wouldn't work when they first came along.

  161. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Blah, blah , blah! I've spent some time on them and I know how they work. They are better in every way than narrow rims. Ray, the owner of Derby is a very upstanding and extremely honest person, with more experience then most of us put together. I have found that everything he has written or said is the truth. It soulds like to me, you're spending to much time in the gutter.
    Sometimes guys can really be smart on paper when it comes to mountain biking, but not fast enough/capable/skilled enough to really get past the engineering hype and get real feedback from riding. I've ridden with Ray...very nice gentleman..and really into bikes and engineering.
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  162. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    What do you think the above statement implies? Dude, you need to shut your **** up, stop trolling here and go try a set. You sound like those stupid idiots that wouldn't shut up about how disc brakes wouldn't work when they first came along.
    No point getting frustrated. He's not a troll and there's no harm in asking questions. Most people who have gone to wide carbon rims went from narrow metal ones, so of course it will feel different and better. Not many have gone from narrow to wide carbon - maybe they have at Derby. If so there may be some available experimental evidence comparing distortion, squirm and rim impact.

    There are a lot of factors in choosing a rim, not least being the widest option possible for your frame and whether a more "vertical" tyre on a narrow rim would suit better than a "flatter" or rounder profile on a wider rim. ie would a 26" with lower lateral forces at the rim be better with a narrow rim when a bigger wheel may be able to sacrifice more diameter to chase less distortion etc etc

  163. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    What do you think the above statement implies? Dude, you need to shut your **** up, stop trolling here and go try a set. You sound like those stupid idiots that wouldn't shut up about how disc brakes wouldn't work when they first came along.
    Relax man. The Giant dealer thinks his **** is the best and so does the Santa Cruz guy. I don't take any bodies word for it when they are peddling their wares - they luv their stuff and are biased - it goes with the territory of selling stuff.

    You're holding on way too tight - nobodies going to die here on the width of their rim

  164. #364
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    I've been following this thread as I have an interest in what's discussed here. I have to say it's gotten a bit hostile and that's not really necessary but good points have been made. I'll give you my take. I've been running I9 enduro wheels 28/23.5mm for 7 years 26" and 29" as well as 36mm OD/ 30mm ID DH rims for 4 years, all tubeless, on a variety of bikes from 5-7" and tires from 2.25-2.5". This spring I bought some Roval Fattie SL's, I'm an industry guy so I get pro deals and at the price I figured I'd try them out. My findings are all seat of the pants as well as comparisons with common riding partners. I don't race timed events but we do ride aggressively and are constantly pushing each other.

    I bought the fatties for my Spider 29 and Spider Comp which I am building now. I've found I can run lower air pressure with better traction, handling and speed in cornering with my wider rims. Ive had rim strikes and cut tires with all of them flirting with the raged edge of traction trying to find the balance between dirt and rock for the terrain I mostly ride. I've found I can ride 3-5 psi less with the 30mm vs 24mm ID rims and have more control with the exact same tires. It wasn't until I spaced out checking air pressure this November on a cold morning ride that I finally had a rim strike with the Fatties at 15 psi.....dough!!! I cut the tire, booted and tubed it to finish the ride and the trip.

    In summary; I find that I prefer the 30ish ID rim vs the 24ish ID rim with the tires I ride. I like how the tires act on the wider rim, the ability to run lower air pressures, better traction and the more predictable steering as a result. JMHO!
    Function in disaster, finish in style.

  165. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by manitou2200 View Post
    flirting with the raged edge of traction trying to find the balance between dirt and rock for the terrain I mostly ride.
    I think this is very important. Obviously, every tire, rim and rider combo has a limit as far as tire pressures goes. You gotta find that limit and not cross it.

  166. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    What rims? And, were they hookless rims? I know one thing for a fact, they weren't Derby rims, which are hookless. The only other wide rim I would consider buying would be the Ibis rims.
    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post
    Relax man. The Giant dealer thinks his **** is the best and so does the Santa Cruz guy. I don't take any bodies word for it when they are peddling their wares - they luv their stuff and are biased - it goes with the territory of selling stuff.

    You're holding on way too tight - nobodies going to die here on the width of their rim
    Just answer the questions?

  167. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Just answer the questions?
    Well, nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition.

    Perhaps, you could answer what your relationship is with Derby rims? Are you neutral, or not?

    Wide, light 29" rim? Cracked carbon content... « Singletrack Forum

    For instance. So I in that it's only beaded rims that crack? Given the only 2 cracked ones I've seen in the flesh, one was hookless and the other I don't know, I have reasonable suspicion that it's also a marketing dept bit of hype - perhaps because they break, they need to be hookless?

    So, what's your relationship to derby?

  168. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post
    Well, nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition.

    Perhaps, you could answer what your relationship is with Derby rims? Are you neutral, or not?

    Wide, light 29" rim? Cracked carbon content... « Singletrack Forum

    For instance. So I in that it's only beaded rims that crack? Given the only 2 cracked ones I've seen in the flesh, one was hookless and the other I don't know, I have reasonable suspicion that it's also a marketing dept bit of hype - perhaps because they break, they need to be hookless?

    So, what's your relationship to derby?
    No relationship at all. But, I have picked his brain about wide rims. After spending a few hours on a set, I'm going to have my own set built. His rims aren't cheap garbage, like some of the other rims out there. Hookless rims are stronger. And out of the thousands of sets sold, to my knowledge there has only been one failure.

  169. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnzj View Post
    Don't forget these guys have to run their sponsor's equipment, and many of the mainstream manufacturers have not gone to the wider rims (partially due to old rim safety specifications).

    Additionally, the world's top pro riders would kick ass on most any bike/setup you stick under them.
    truth. i'm pretty sure aaron gwin could beat me down a hill riding a huffy.

  170. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    I think because of the increased air volume, you have more air to cushion impacts.
    It works opposite of that, though that is commonly believed. More air means the tire will be less progressive when you need it to be more progressive. Fact is, though, that tires have no progressively at all.

    More air would be helpful if you got it through more internal height. Wider rims don't do that though, they only increase width.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    I think the main reason the tire feels harder is because the straighter, (verticle) sidewalls better support the tire, which leads to less rim strikes.
    OK, I was thinking you meant "feel" differently. That would be tire-specific.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    But even with wide rims, you obviously can't run ridiculously low pressures especially for high speeds, without rim strikes.
    Yes, absolutely. I've seen quotes of 10 psi for a 2.5 tire on a 50mm rim and even 12-14 psi on a sub-2" tire on a 50mm rim so basic common sense alludes some riders.

  171. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    It's not just the air volumn. I'm not really sure there is enough air volumn change, if any, to make a difference.
    Yeah, air volume cannot make any difference. The changes are small and in the wrong direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    It's because the force being applied to the tire will be going down the sidewall from the edge of the rim to the tread, more evenly....
    Yes, I don't have a problem with any of this explanation, it's just that the magnitude of the differences need to be compared to the magnitude of the forces involved.

    Many bicycle tire sidewalls have very little structure and are essentially balloons. There is no doubt that the effective spring rate can change by stiffening the sidewalls through better rim support, the question is by how much?

    To be clear, I like wider rims as much as anyone, I just feel that the benefit is in areas other than rim strike reduction. Tires can be made (and are) to benefit from rim width like you describe but they will be heavier and roll more poorly.

  172. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post
    Do you think Derby rims might have a bias to them?

    Edit - on their picture the tyre is now 1/60th bigger. So maybe you can run 29.5psi rather than 30psi? Is that your lower pressure?

    Just because something sounds sought of plausible doesn't make it true. Sidewalls have much importance in hysteresis and squirm, but if you have a square edge rock that has an area of 1 square inch as it contacts the tyre, 25psi is 25psi and the distance from outer tyre edge to rim is essentially the same whether it's 25psi or 20psi - but one will stand one fifth more force untill it hits the rim.

    Go an do the experiment if you are so confident. Find a nice gutter, sit down on the rear wheel and ride into it with your narrow rims at 30psi - reduce the psi by 2 and keep repeating till you feel the clunk of rim contact. Now go get your super wide carbon rim with the same sized tyre, drop the psi by 5 below your first contact and ride into the gutter again.

    Video the experience, if you have derby rims, this might be useful, because if you do happen to crack the rim, you can blackmail them by saying you'll upload the experiment to mtbr if they don't send you a replacement lol.

    I'll give you another thought, how much less pressure can you run on a fatbike without rim strikes? The reason for that is on that same gutter, that tyre will have twice the surface area of gutter edge to spread the load
    Agree with this. Also, the fat bike tire has a lot more internal casing height to compress before a rim strike occurs.

    Also there's a difference between avoiding rim strikes and surviving them. Hookless rims stand up to abuse better but they don't reduce strikes at all.

  173. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    I would suggest that you guys read:

    WIDE rims

    ...Scroll down a little.
    I did. There is some interesting content on there and many pictures of high end trail bikes. Here are a few things I found:

    • There is a mention of this MTBR Forum on the derbyrims.com 'About Us' page.
    • There is also an explanation of the history behind the 'Derby' name - and it happens to be a type of riding (a derby) that is polar opposite of DH racing.
    • According to content on their 'Technical' page: they make a DH rim by adding carbon-fiber layering inside the hollow “double wall” rims.


    There is no other substantial content related to downhill riding or racing on their website that I could find.

    Now my conclusion from that read: The content on Derbyrims.com points to their products being a good fit for trail riding where the rider wants "lower tire pressure when desired for less rolling resistance over rough terrain", and of course if you ride derbies.

  174. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldranger View Post
    I did. There is some interesting content on there and many pictures of high end trail bikes. Here are a few things I found:

    • There is a mention of this MTBR Forum on the derbyrims.com 'About Us' page.
    • There is also an explanation of the history behind the 'Derby' name - and it happens to be a type of riding (a derby) that is polar opposite of DH racing.
    • According to content on their 'Technical' page: they make a DH rim by adding carbon-fiber layering inside the hollow “double wall” rims.


    There is no other substantial content related to downhill riding or racing on their website that I could find.

    Now my conclusion from that read: The content on Derbyrims.com points to their products being a good fit for trail riding where the rider wants "lower tire pressure when desired for less rolling resistance over rough terrain", and of course if you ride derbies.
    This is almost as clearly biased and nonsensical as the OP. Keep trying... you'll get there again.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  175. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    This is almost as clearly biased and nonsensical as the OP. Keep trying... you'll get there again.
    Some people aren't smart enough to put two and two together.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldranger View Post
    I did. There is some interesting content on there and many pictures of high end trail bikes. Here are a few things I found:

    • There is a mention of this MTBR Forum on the derbyrims.com 'About Us' page.
    • There is also an explanation of the history behind the 'Derby' name - and it happens to be a type of riding (a derby) that is polar opposite of DH racing.
    • According to content on their 'Technical' page: they make a DH rim by adding carbon-fiber layering inside the hollow “double wall” rims.


    There is no other substantial content related to downhill riding or racing on their website that I could find.

    Now my conclusion from that read: The content on Derbyrims.com points to their products being a good fit for trail riding where the rider wants "lower tire pressure when desired for less rolling resistance over rough terrain", and of course if you ride derbies.
    They sell DH specific lay ups. So everything explained there also pertains to DH rims There is also info there that explains some of the misconceptions in this thread, which pertain to all types of mountain bike riding.

  176. #376
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    For the sake of the quietly reading majority that are really trying to get some good advice before they drop some $$ on wide rims:

    I've never seen Derby Rims on anyone's DH race bike. No contributor on this thread (that has a full fledged DH race bike) uses Derby Rims competitively at a Cat1 or Pro level. In 2014 I spent time at Whistler, Snowshoe, Plattekill, Beech Mtn for USAC GRT, and out on quite a few trails in the SC/WNC area. While the I9's are common...I've never seen one of the Derby Rims. So my personal observations are consistent with what you might find DH race teams using. (Not Derby, and generally speaking - not carbon rims...except the Syndicate)

    Given that I'm not very smart...maybe one of you can show me a picture of a downhill bike with these rims.

    P.S. Not you melted feather...you're the one that posts pics of bikes that you don't ride, and you also provideded incorrect information on the inner width of a DT Swiss FR600. It is 25mm (http://www.dtswiss.com/Resources/Sup...S_MTB_2015.pdf). Do you even have a DH bike?

  177. #377
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    Do you even have a DH bike?
    bingo.

  178. #378
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    Thought that perhaps some readers might find this post below useful. Bholwell is a tyre designer and ex maxxis tyre designer, to me, that seems to be about the top of the tree as far respectability and experience goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell View Post
    For the theoretical change in carcass width and height as rim width increases, see the charts below. Note that this is for carcass width; tread width will change even less as you move to a wider rim. The profile will appear more 'square', however.

    Attachment 862174Attachment 862175

    As the internal width of the rim increases, the contact patch will become wider and shorter (assuming the inflation pressure and load is kept constant.) However if the shoulder lugs are already in contact with the ground, the contact patch cannot grow wider; instead it becomes more squared off, and the pressure distribution within the contact patch changes.

    A wider rim will not allow one to run tires at lower inflation pressures without suffering rim strikes / pinch flats. To the contrary, the larger internal volume of the tire afforded by the wider rim causes the vertical deflection (i.e. suspension behavior) of the tire to become more linear. Just like a large can air shock, at the same pressure one will be more likely to bottom out the tire, all other things remaining equal.

    A wider rim will, however, reduce sidewall 'squirm' at lowered pressures. Similar to someone shoving you in the shoulder with your feet spaced widely apart versus your feet closely together, the tire is better supported.

    Regarding rolling resistance, it will be largely dependent on the terrain ridden and the tire choice. Imagine smooth, buff, single track, or even asphalt. A higher inflation pressure will result in the lowest possible rolling resistance. Conversely, imagine the rootiest, rockiest trail; lowered pressure will help the tire to soak up the bumps, and thus will provide the lowest rolling resistance. Lately people tend to claim that the lower your inflation pressure, the lower the rolling resistance for off-road riding (often citing the Schwalbe rolling resistance study). But there is actually an optimal pressure, and this may be higher that you can safely go before suffering rim strikes. The only way to find this optimal pressure is through experimentation.

  179. #379
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    My Turner DHR equipped with Derby rims, I9 hubs and spokes:

    Turner DHR by Oinkideas, on Flickr



    Bike in action... for the sake of transparency, I will say that the following shots were taken before the new wheels were installed. They have been posted to indicate the use (rock gardens and road gaps) that the wheels will see.

    Timberline Bike Park by Oinkideas, on Flickr
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Wide Rims?  Don't believe the hype...-p4pb10514959.jpg  

    Last edited by J-Ha; 03-10-2015 at 06:16 AM. Reason: html to bb

  180. #380
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by oldranger View Post
    Do you even have a DH bike?
    Do you even have a set of wide rims?

    I have a moron detector that bats 1.000 and it's lit up like a Christmas tree. If you want to post such an inflammatory thread title with such a strong opinion, it might lend some credibility to have some basis for that opinion other than the fact that you see sponsored riders riding their sponsors' equipment.

    I might not even disagree with your premise, but your "argument" is a flailing mess drizzled with that always killer combination of ignorance and smugness.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 01-13-2015 at 08:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  181. #381
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    I have a moron detector that bats 1.000 and it's lit up like a Christmas tree.
    Haha yes! I'm definitely re-using that.

    But anyway I think it was a reasonable thing to ask, it's just unreasonable to ask it in a dickish manner. Only because I really think the way a downhiller rides is a little different than most other styles, and the shoulder of the tire becomes more critical for them.

  182. #382
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    JHa. Thanks for the post - I hope to see you out at Snowshoe some day. I look forward to hearing your impressions of how the rims are working.

    Melting Feather and friends that continue to attack me personally: Please just walk away then. If I am stupid and dickish (as you have written), please just be the better man you think you are and ignore this thread. Regardless of how you feel about the title of the thread - you can't ignore the # of views and Replies. People are interested in this topic.

  183. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldranger View Post
    I know from personal experience that 'wide' rims feel different

    I’ve ridden these rims on Freeride, DH Racing and DS:
    [LIST=1][*]Crossmax SX 21mm[*]Atomlab Standard Issue 21mm[*]Atomlab Pimp2 26mm[*]Specialized Roval DH 23mm


    I'm kinda confused here, because I don't consider these to be wide rims.

  184. #384
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    It seems to me that Mavic, ENVE, etc have all the money it takes to do the research, and all the engineers to make whatever product they want. I think it is telling that when they moved up from 19mm ID, they did not go to 30mm ID, most of them are in the 24-25mm range even for DH. They have pros riding this stuff, and those pro teams want to win. They claim they don't use custom wheels, they use the regular stuff.

    Anyone remember all the hype around the Velocity P35? And then remember all the tacoed wheels and spokes pulling through the rim? What a piece of crap that turned out to be. It turns out that you can't have a wide, light, strong, cheap rim. Who couldn't guessed that?

    To sum up:
    I think established companies know the optimal width for rims based on tires, and vice versa for tires on rims. They all saw the sales that came from 29ers, and got on 27.5/650B much faster once it caught fire. They would move to wider rims if it helped.

    ..someone else probably mentioned this at some point in the past 16 pages, but it was lost in the drama and insults.

  185. #385
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    ^ Who said rims have to be cheap. But, you can have wide, light and strong rims. And they work pretty well too!

  186. #386
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    OK, sorry for the confusion Mountain Cycle Shawn. I only listed the rims I have ridden on so that readers could know what experience I had; that seems relevant. I probably should have edited the OP for some clarity along the way, but felt it best not to.

    I will distill my original post down to the two sentences I had in bold to try and simplify where I stand. It seems like my other information just caused confusion, but I was trying to show I had done some limited research before posting. Note: DH = Downhill

    So: I think it is all hype. My guess is that the ideal rim width for DH tires on the market today is 23mm - 25mm of internal width.


    Disclaimer: I am not the most coherent writer on this board and this original post from a year ago, was probably my third post on this board, maybe the first or second. I don't remember

    Request as the OP: for those of you with 2,000+ posts can you please just stop picking apart my year old post and bashing me, and let me know if I've missed any interesting information like:

    - Maybe MTB tire manufacturers are now designing DH tires for rims with internal widths >25mm
    - Maybe there is a race team that has chosen to use wide rim 'X'
    - Maybe there is a racer out there kicking ass on some regional series that has improved their times noticeably just by getting wide rims

  187. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldranger View Post
    - Maybe MTB tire manufacturers are now designing DH tires for rims with internal widths >25mm
    This is possible. I am not aware of any limit on tire sizes, but one could exist somewhere in a UCI rulebook. I've seen DH tires that were rated as 2.7" and weren't actually quite that large, while some 2.4" tires are significantly bigger.

    Obviously, the reason pros aren't taking 26x4 up the lifts is because there isn't just a question of traction, it's rolling resistance, handling and even weight as well, since high-level DH races usually do require some pedaling.

  188. #388
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    Pinkbike's take....
    On today's Ask Pinkbike they were talking out tubeless & DH with some statements that are relavent to this discussion.

    Disclaimer: I am a big fan of the 'ultra wide' rim (Derby etc), I'm not a DH racer, and I'm just relaying what I read on pinkbike

    Ask Pinkbike: Correct Shock Length, Tubeless for Gravity, A-Line Paralysis Tips, and Keeping the Bits Out of Your Goggles - Pinkbike

    "Few DH pros run tubes, so that is as good an indication as any that tubeless tires can corner hard and not burp air or pinch flat. Almost no enduro racers run tubes as well, but it is worth noting that both groups use wide rims (26 to 30mm inner widths) to stabilize the tires laterally."

  189. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Damage View Post
    Pinkbike's take...."Few DH pros run tubes, so that is as good an indication as any that tubeless tires can corner hard and not burp air or pinch flat. Almost no enduro racers run tubes as well, but it is worth noting that both groups use wide rims (26 to 30mm inner widths) to stabilize the tires laterally."
    Thanks for the link. I haven't checked all the 2015 pro setups yet, but I do see that the Specialized team is killing it on some DT Swiss rims. You know what is interesting about that....they seem to be running the EX471 with an inner width of 25mm, not the FR570 that has an inner width of 27.5mm. They save about 100 grams with that...

  190. #390
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    The ENVE 27.5 rim that Bryceland won last year on is supposedly the stock 25mm ID rim that anyone can buy, the M90 DH: M90 Ten 27.5 - Wheel | ENVE

    So, while I respect Pinkbike and I love their reviews, I'm a little uncertain as to the source and veracity of that link which is authored by 'Pinkbike Staff'.

  191. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    This is possible. I am not aware of any limit on tire sizes, but one could exist somewhere in a UCI rulebook. I've seen DH tires that were rated as 2.7" and weren't actually quite that large, while some 2.4" tires are significantly bigger.

    Obviously, the reason pros aren't taking 26x4 up the lifts is because there isn't just a question of traction, it's rolling resistance, handling and even weight as well, since high-level DH races usually do require some pedaling.
    TBH I have a few 2.4 and 2.5 tires that are as wide as 2.7's I have here. The only tires I have on hand that actually are HUGE is the way old school Gazallodi 3.0 DH tires.
    I like to fart when I'm in front of you on a climb:skep:

  192. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldranger View Post
    OK, sorry for the confusion Mountain Cycle Shawn. I only listed the rims I have ridden on so that readers could know what experience I had; that seems relevant. I probably should have edited the OP for some clarity along the way, but felt it best not to.

    I will distill my original post down to the two sentences I had in bold to try and simplify where I stand. It seems like my other information just caused confusion, but I was trying to show I had done some limited research before posting. Note: DH = Downhill

    So: I think it is all hype. My guess is that the ideal rim width for DH tires on the market today is 23mm - 25mm of internal width.


    Disclaimer: I am not the most coherent writer on this board and this original post from a year ago, was probably my third post on this board, maybe the first or second. I don't remember

    Request as the OP: for those of you with 2,000+ posts can you please just stop picking apart my year old post and bashing me, and let me know if I've missed any interesting information like:

    - Maybe MTB tire manufacturers are now designing DH tires for rims with internal widths >25mm
    - Maybe there is a race team that has chosen to use wide rim 'X'
    - Maybe there is a racer out there kicking ass on some regional series that has improved their times noticeably just by getting wide rims
    Oh don't be sorry. I understand now. You have absolutely no experience on wide rims. That means zip zilch nada riding time on WIDE RIMS. Give it some time. Like all big changes in this industry, it just takes time for everyone to adapt. Especially when a big change like this requires something else to be changed, in order to get the best out of the first change. You follow that? And, I can tell you that one of the first makers has sold hundreds, if not thousands of wide carbon DH rims with only one failure. That's pretty good! Plus you don't have to be racing DH to expose these wide rims to those forces. This same company has sold thousands of sets of these rims, DH and lighter lay ups to people who are pounding the crap out of them. Probably exposing these rims to more punishment then pro DHers, because their skill level isn't as good, and still only one failure. ONE ****ING FAILURE!

  193. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    The ENVE 27.5 rim that Bryceland won last year on is supposedly the stock 25mm ID rim that anyone can buy, the M90 DH: M90 Ten 27.5 - Wheel | ENVE

    So, while I respect Pinkbike and I love their reviews, I'm a little uncertain as to the source and veracity of that link which is authored by 'Pinkbike Staff'.
    It says 'PinkBike staff' at the top because each section is written by a different person.
    Richard Cunningham (MTB Hall of Famer and former editor of MBA) wrote the section on DH tubeless.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 01-14-2015 at 01:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  194. #394
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    Ropelato rides the 30mm Roval Fatties on his enduro bike.

    He also rode a 29er Enduro at 2013 DH Worlds. Qualified 2nd on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  195. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Anyone remember all the hype around the Velocity P35? And then remember all the tacoed wheels and spokes pulling through the rim? What a piece of crap that turned out to be. It turns out that you can't have a wide, light, strong, cheap rim. Who couldn't guessed that?
    That's where the Blunt35 rims started from. They are pretty common place now. I have a set, they mount up tubeless awesome, take a beating without damage, no crack's if they get a hard rim strike. So it was a product that was refined for a better end product. I believe they now have the Blunt35, Blunt and Blunt SL that spawned from those rims and seem to be selling well. Who would have guessed that?
    I like to fart when I'm in front of you on a climb:skep:

  196. #396
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    I can tell you guys that I really like the Roval SL Fatties. They are light, stiff and seem like very tough wheels/ rims. I've only had that one dumb-ass rim strike with them when I neglected to check and air them up after a big temp drop last November. I'll probably trash the tire because I'm not sure it'll hold tubeless even with a good boot but I can't even tell the rim struck rock. There is not a mark on the edge or sidewall of the rim.

    I'll wager that Specialized/ Roval will have a new SL Fattie DH wheel set this next year based on the success of the SL Fatties.

    I've talked with the guys at I9 and they are not yet convinced of the >26mm ID carbon rim trend yet. Their new hookless Pillar Carbon rims are 24mm ID and made for them by Reynolds.

    As mentioned earlier; time will tell on this fat trend and DH but it wasn't that long ago that 36mm OD/ 30ish ID DH rims were more the norm than narrower rims.
    Function in disaster, finish in style.

  197. #397
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    Wide Rims? Don't believe the hype...

    Im building a set of Dually rims with I9 Torch hubs for a 29+ set up on my FTW steel frame. The rims looks very nice and they should make for a nice wheel set although all the spoke calculators called for spokes 2mm too long for the hubs and Dually's. Then the DT spokes were mis-matched on the second shipment. Hopefully third times s charm!
    Last edited by manitou2200; 01-14-2015 at 02:57 PM.
    Function in disaster, finish in style.

  198. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    The ENVE 27.5 rim that Bryceland won last year on is supposedly the stock 25mm ID rim that anyone can buy, the M90 DH: M90 Ten 27.5 - Wheel | ENVE

    So, while I respect Pinkbike and I love their reviews, I'm a little uncertain as to the source and veracity of that link which is authored by 'Pinkbike Staff'.
    Pinkbike is very opinion based on most matters - they have nailed themselves to both extra wide rims and extra wide bars early on. It's not exactly Nature or Scientific American

  199. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Oh don't be sorry. I understand now. You have absolutely no experience on wide rims. That means zip zilch nada riding time on WIDE RIMS. Give it some time. Like all big changes in this industry, it just takes time for everyone to adapt. Especially when a big change like this requires something else to be changed, in order to get the best out of the first change. You follow that? And, I can tell you that one of the first makers has sold hundreds, if not thousands of wide carbon DH rims with only one failure. That's pretty good! Plus you don't have to be racing DH to expose these wide rims to those forces. This same company has sold thousands of sets of these rims, DH and lighter lay ups to people who are pounding the crap out of them. Probably exposing these rims to more punishment then pro DHers, because their skill level isn't as good, and still only one failure. ONE ****ING FAILURE!
    What is wrong with you?

    Are you completely incapable of carrying out a civilised discussion?

    There is so much wrong in your post I don't know where to start, so I won't even bother, but your hissy fits and personal attacks sure don't project a considered intelligent poster

  200. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by manitou2200 View Post
    I've talked with the guys at I9 and they are not yet convinced of the >26mm ID carbon rim trend yet. Their new hookless Pillar Carbon rims are 24mm ID and made for them by Reynolds.
    Note: their Gravity Rims are very popular amongst the riders in the Southeast. They have a 28.5mm internal width and in the 26" diameter the rim weighs 530g. I just can't afford a set at $1,200-$1,400.

    So...I have contacted them and will see if I can get some time with one of their folks to understand how they came up with 28.5 inner width. On their website they write: "The added traction and support our 28.5mm internal width provides is an incredible upgrade from the industry standard 21mm."

    26\" Gravity

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