Washing out ... tyres, setup, technique or bad luck?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Washing out ... tyres, setup, technique or bad luck?

    I thought I'd found my perfect tyre combo. A quick rolling yet aggressive grippy setup.

    29x2.6 eliminator front and 27.5x2.6 slaughter rear both in grid casings.

    Except, I've noticed the past couple of rides, I've been washing out suddenly and I can't work out why.

    Conditions were dry both times. First time was low speed loose over hard, second time was higher speed and loamy. In both cases I had the bike leaned moderately. The last slide hurt. I've ridden these sections several dozen times before.

    I'm 168cm, 85kg and run 13psi front and 18psi rear.

    I'm not discounting the fact that I'm no pro and technique is a contributing factor but in over 100 rides the past year I've never washed out like this. Let alone on consecutive rides and just a few rides into a new tyres combo.

    Has anyone else had sketchy slides on the eliminator or similar tyres, or is this more likely rider technique/ability? I'm falling out of love with that eliminator pretty quick tbh.

  2. #2
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    What inner width rim are you using?
    If it's not wide enough you may need to add more pressure to keep the sidewalls from folding over in cornering and putting that no tread area of tire in contact with the trail. Doesn't offer much traction if it happens. The change can be almost instant and you're on the ground.
    If you have wide rims for a wide tire the sidewall crinkles down for better cornering traction and slideouts are gradual. You can often have time to change your line and recover with no fall.

    I'd add 3 lbs. to each to start and see if you have better traction.

  3. #3
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    At 13psi, that must be a mushball that squirms and doesnít let the knobs dig in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    What inner width rim are you using?
    If it's not wide enough you may need to add more pressure to keep the sidewalls from folding over in cornering and putting that no tread area of tire in contact with the trail. Doesn't offer much traction if it happens. The change can be almost instant and you're on the ground.
    If you have wide rims for a wide tire the sidewall crinkles down for better cornering traction and slideouts are gradual. You can often have time to change your line and recover with no fall.

    I'd add 3 lbs. to each to start and see if you have better traction.
    I'm running i30 rims, the eliminator has a fair few intermediate knobs and very little dead zone between outer and middle tread.

    I started down the low pressure path to overcome the bounciness of the 2.6 xr5/xr4 tyres is was running previously. Given these measure up just over 2.4 I probably should up the pressure a little.

    I'm also thinking maybe it is the intermediate knobs that are not playing well with my riding. My previous front tyres were dhf, dhf, xr5 & butcher, all having quite wide transition zones.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    At 13psi, that must be a mushball that squirms and doesnít let the knobs dig in.
    I'd agree except the the first time was quite a low speed ... I wouldnt think there was much chance of squirm or folding at that speed.

    No harm in playing with pressure, what would you suggest for a 29x2.6 front?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    ...in over 100 rides the past year I've never washed out like this. Let alone on consecutive rides and just a few rides into a new tyres combo.
    You never washed out until you started using these tires?
    Seems like it's the tires.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSU Alum View Post
    You never washed out until you started using these tires?
    Seems like it's the tires.
    Yeah I mean I've gone otb, I've kissed trees, I've shot through berms, looped out manuals, stuffed up takeoffs, misjudged landings etc but never just hit the deck for no reason and not riding particularly aggressively. I mean if you saw the sections I'm talking about you'd be laughing at me

    That's why I thought I'd see if anyone else has had similar experiences with the spec eliminator.

  8. #8
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    Wide rims and low pressure means you can reduce the size and height of the knobs on the tires you run. . . .in terrains where you don't need heavier sidewalls to keep from getting tire sidewalls sliced up. Like from shale. For XR tires you can run 2.35s on your rim or even better on a 35mm inner rim at low pressure. They are designed with a very rounded profile and high volume. XR2s might be one to try if you get a chance. Lighter and faster rolling. Otherwise I'd go back to what worked for you.

  9. #9
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    The rotating mass has got to be huge on that setup with the tire widths and rims. It's going you yank you to the outside of the turn, in some cases, it may try to take you off the trail. I've had that happen before.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  10. #10
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    You might just need to get used to the tire. Maybe try modifying your style. Iím running the Eliminator 27.5x2.6 with 29mm IW rims. What I noticed is that the tread of the Eliminator is fairly flat compared the the Hans Dampf I had. The 2.6 actually measures 2.4.

    I run 13psi up front and 15psi out back. I feel like I can go lower on softer dirt. Iím about 150lbs geared up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    Otherwise I'd go back to what worked for you.
    I haven't found a combo which I've been 100% sold on. The closest I think was a dhr/forekaster combo, but that was on a different bike and much narrower (2.3).

    What I'm after is something I can really drive aggressively whilst not being super draggy on the flats. e.g. DHF is too draggy on the flats for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    You might just need to get used to the tire. Maybe try modifying your style.... The 2.6 actually measures 2.4.
    That's what I'm afraid of, I'd much rather find a tyre that feels natural and works with my style. I suspect the problem may be the tyre isn't as lean friendly as my previous setups.

    I noticed they measure up narrow. I suppose if I need to look for another combo I can look into 2.4" rather than limiting myself to 2.6" ... since I'm running 2.4" tyre already anyway

  13. #13
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    Man, it sounds like you're having the same issue with the Eliminator that I have with the Butcher. I have Butchers on my Levo and the damn thing washes out with no warning. I've run XR3/4 combo, Michelin Wilds, WTB Vigilante/Judge combo, and not had that issue. Run the same trails on with the Specialized Butchers and the front just disappears underneath me. I blame the tires.
    . . . . . . . .

  14. #14
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    30mm rim makes a square profile. You leaned past the side knobs.

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    How new are the Eliminators? I found that when fresh, they offered surprisingly good traction (discovered that I didn't have to brake as much in corners and could just "braaap"), but as the edges rounded off, they started become less secure.

    I had considered that in my scenario that summer climate drying things out caused the loss of traction. I landed on my deduction due to my experience switching to a newer tire, a Schwalbe Fat Albert, which had surprisingly good traits. ~400 miles later and now I'm questioning the trustworthiness of these tires too, as their edges soften.

    I honestly never have been able to wear out any high end fancy compound mtb tire bald. I tend to seek new rubber before then. I've been able to justify buying new, by fooling myself that I'm wearing through the grippier outside rubber and the harder rubber underneath the knobs could be at fault.

    Maxxis Minions seem to last for 3k+ miles, but their quality consistency as of late have been kinda iffy, so I've been experimenting. I've had a nearly bald HR2 up front grip well too, but that was DC. Maxxis rubber seems to wear less crumbly...

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by scatterbrained View Post
    Man, it sounds like you're having the same issue with the Eliminator that I have with the Butcher. I have Butchers on my Levo and the damn thing washes out with no warning. I've run XR3/4 combo, Michelin Wilds, WTB Vigilante/Judge combo, and not had that issue. Run the same trails on with the Specialized Butchers and the front just disappears underneath me. I blame the tires.
    Ok that's interesting. I have a butcher on my hardtail and haven't washed out yet. In fact I was thinking of swapping the Eliminator with a butcher. Sounds like we should swap front tyres .

  17. #17
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    Eliminators are about 8 rides old (150kms). I took it easy on the first few rides to get a feel for them. Thing is in both scenarios I wasn't pushing particularly hard (in the first I was just cruising).

    Minions I like for grip but the DHF f/r was a boat anchor on my trails. I thought about the minion SS in the rear prior to the spec combo, but that thing in 27.5x2.5 is full DH casing afaik. Other option was Kenda Nevegal 2 or E13 or even conti but none are available in wide sizes (2.6).

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    30mm rim makes a square profile. You leaned past the side knobs.
    I think you're right in that I must've leaned past the knobs, or maybe the Eliminator need more weighting than I'm used to.

    I wouldn't think a 2.6 (2.4) would be squared off on i30 rims though?

  19. #19
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    I'll also add that I notice that fresh tires have a stronger propensity to fling dirt/sand up into the air. I run a fork fender to keep my face from catching the crap that the front tire flings up and forward into the air when riding at a certain speed. Once the tires become kinda chalky (coated in dust), they stop flinging and also feel less grippy to the touch (like rubbing a dry hand against clean chalkboard vs dusty one).

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    Yeah they're definately sharper when new. I haven't noticed the change in grippy feel translate to a lack of grip on the trail though

    Like you I've yet to actually wear out a set of tyres. There's always something I'm not too happy about. Over the past year I've tried these from most recent to oldest.

    2.6 eliminator/2.6 slaughter = described above
    2.6 butcher/2.6 purg = different bike, not bad but rolling resistance can be felt, purg is wearing badly
    2.6 Xr5/2.6 xr4 = pinging and bouncing at any reasonable pressure. Needs an insert at which point might as well go with a heavier casing
    2.6 Dhf/2.6 dhf = boat anchor on the flat sections
    2.3 dhr/2.35 forekaster = different bike, forekaster wasn't holding up well in the rear after 300kms
    2.4 xr3/2.2 xr2 = pretty happy with that on the xc bike but I'm not riding full aggro either. The xr2 is a huge tyre for it's rated size.

    I really wish I could find a combo I'm happy with. Maybe I need to go back to 2.4" tyres on my i30 rims.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    ...I wouldn't think a 2.6 (2.4) would be squared off on i30 rims though?
    Correct. Wide tires at low pressure float on the surface and will skitter across loose surfaces rather than dig in.
    Do the math.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    I think you're right in that I must've leaned past the knobs, or maybe the Eliminator need more weighting than I'm used to.

    I wouldn't think a 2.6 (2.4) would be squared off on i30 rims though?
    I wouldn't put a hard absolute on things because of the variability of how tires are measured. I've got WTB Vig/TB 29x2.6 tires on 30mm rims and they're pretty rounded (which I like), but they're definitely big tires. If your tires measure narrow, then they'll be more squared off, for sure. Is it too squared off? I can't say. Depends how deep you lean into corners. Worth investigating, though. In my case, I feel that the TB is more squared off than I like, though, because of the knob layout. The side knobs are super tall and square off the tire's profile more than I like. I feel the back get vague when leaning into corners or riding off-camber stuff.

    One thing to look for is also the rubber compound of the tires. I noticed that one this summer. I usually ride in Pisgah with super variable conditions and I really like this tire setup most of the time. Especially the front tire. The rubber is super soft and grippy and does well on the rocks and as well as can be expected on wet roots. I took the bike to the other side of the mtns to ride in Knoxville where the trails were hardpack, and it had been dry long enough that there was a touch of moon dust, too. When I pushed the bike into high speed corners, I found the knobs themselves flexing/folding and got a little scary. I broke loose a couple times where I wasn't expecting. I never went down, but it got me to dial back a little bit.

    As for pressures, I don't think what you're running is necessarily unreasonable. I've got similar in my 29x2.6 tires (12F/17R). I started much higher, but the stiff casings allowed me to go lower before I felt casing squirm. I'm above that threshold right now. I don't know the tires you're running specifically, but you can always try bumping the pressure up a little bit.

    Technique probably also plays into this, as well. I know my cornering technique is far from perfect, but I work on it and I notice the difference when I'm focusing on technique vs. when I'm being sloppy. Technique can certainly make up for less than perfect equipment to a degree. Without seeing you riding, though, it's impossible to identify particular deficits in technique. I do know that almost everyone has room for improvement when it comes to cornering.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Rager View Post
    Correct. Wide tires at low pressure float on the surface and will skitter across loose surfaces rather than dig in.
    I think that's a little different than a squared vs. rounded tire profile. Also, I'd say that the wider the tire (regardless of pressure), the more it floats/skitters over loose surfaces. I've not noticed that more than when I was working on cornering in a skills clinic with my fatbike. I've favored a more rounded tire profile on that bike for more general duty riding (it definitely isn't a pure winter bike) with higher tire pressures for general duty riding, and that thing made cornering practice in a gravel parking lot very challenging because it wouldn't carve into the corners. It floated/skittered. It was a lot like riding on marbles.

    I personally haven't noted that effect with 2.6 tires.

  24. #24
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    At 85kg, on a real 2.4, I was running a minimum of 20psi up front, and no less than 25 psi out back.

    Sounds like your tires are folding all over the place. I can't imagine having stability with that much flop!

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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    I haven't found a combo which I've been 100% sold on. The closest I think was a dhr/forekaster combo, but that was on a different bike and much narrower (2.3).

    What I'm after is something I can really drive aggressively whilst not being super draggy on the flats. e.g. DHF is too draggy on the flats for me.
    I'm 160 lbs or so. I'm running a 29x2.6 DHF alphabet up front and a 29x2.5 Aggressor on the back at about the pressures you're using and I like the combo quite a bit. I'm not finding it particularly draggy and they don't seem to squirm or fold under. I ride mostly in the Wasatch (which admittedly has hero dirt for the most part) and in Moab (where just about anything will hook up) - so you are probably in an area that is more demanding on what tires work best. I'm riding with faster climbers, so I'm pretty aware of rolling resistance and while there are faster, less draggy combos, these work well.

  26. #26
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    I weigh the same as you. My tire pressures are 23 front and 25 rear. I think your pressures are too low for your weight. If I ran your pressures, my rims would be destroyed! I saw a professional suspension/bike set-up guru and that's the pressures he recommended. General formula is weight(pounds) ų 7 = psi for rear tire, minus 2 psi for the front.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graveltattoo View Post
    I weigh the same as you. My tire pressures are 23 front and 25 rear. I think your pressures are too low for your weight. If I ran your pressures, my rims would be destroyed! I saw a professional suspension/bike set-up guru and that's the pressures he recommended. General formula is weight(pounds) ų 7 = psi for rear tire, minus 2 psi for the front.
    Does not take into account tire size, casing stiffness, rim width, riding style, or riding conditions. Or the presence of tire inserts, for that matter.

    Would he be recommending people run those pressures on fatbikes on dry trails, too? Your "setup guru" would probably not know what to do about people riding fatbikes in the snow at 0psi.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    As for pressures, I don't think what you're running is necessarily unreasonable.
    At 185lbs you think 13psi is ok? That seem crazy to me. At close to the same weight I might be able to get away with 20psi on a DH casing, and I'd still probably burp, rim strike, and cornering/feel would be very vague.

    OP, my thoughts... feel free to disregard - at some point it's the archer and not the arrow. Run a reputable combo, get your pressures right, figure out the limits, and be done.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    I took the bike to the other side of the mtns to ride in Knoxville where the trails were hardpack, and it had been dry long enough that there was a touch of moon dust, too. When I pushed the bike into high speed corners, I found the knobs themselves flexing/folding and got a little scary. I broke loose a couple times where I wasn't expecting. I never went down, but it got me to dial back a little bit.
    If I'm reading your post correctly, you are saying that the rubber/tread pattern on your tire set up is not optimal for those conditions?

    Is dialing back the riding the answer to dealing with hardpack and loose over hard during hot dry summers? or are there better tire choices? skinnier? shorter treads?


    I ride a lot of hardpack with loose over hard, especially during the peak of summer. and at the end of june I took of my cheap 27.5x2.8 OEM WTB Rangers and put on 27.5x2.8 butcher/slaughter grid.

    I, too, noticed some front washing out. But I attributed it to a myriad of other factors rather than the tires because I truly believed that my new tires should be grippier than my old ones no matter what.

    I attributed my washing out to:

    1. drier, looser conditions
    2. me riding faster, and pushing into the turn more aggressively
    3. my poor cornering technique
    4. it wasn't a washout, it was just that "transition zone" that everyone is talking about


    and maybe it's still those things that was giving me a scare during some turns, but is there a different mindset when it comes to choosing tires specifically for loose over hard?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    At 185lbs you think 13psi is ok? That seem crazy to me. At close to the same weight I might be able to get away with 20psi on a DH casing, and I'd still probably burp, rim strike, and cornering/feel would be very vague.

    OP, my thoughts... feel free to disregard - at some point it's the archer and not the arrow. Run a reputable combo, get your pressures right, figure out the limits, and be done.
    I'm in that neighborhood weight-wise (when geared up). Like I said, I ride WTB Vig/TB 29x2.6 tires at 12F/17R. I started above 20psi when I first installed them and found it to be too high. I'm not saying all tires would be okay at those pressures. But I'm saying it's not outside of the realm of feasibility. I was also honestly amazed at the low pressures I was running. I also went past what I currently ride, and I felt what excessively low pressure is like on my tires. I felt them squirming on me.

    Quote Originally Posted by tweeder82o View Post
    If I'm reading your post correctly, you are saying that the rubber/tread pattern on your tire set up is not optimal for those conditions?

    Is dialing back the riding the answer to dealing with hardpack and loose over hard during hot dry summers? or are there better tire choices? skinnier? shorter treads?
    Sure, my tires are not optimal for dry hardpack flow trails with some moon dust. Given the scenario, dialing back on how fast I hit the turns was the best solution available to me. I didn't have a spare set of tires in my pack to change over in the middle of the woods as soon as I realized the shortcomings of what I had installed. It's also not the sort of trail type that I ride often. I rode those trails ONCE this year. Barely worth spending $100-$150 on a second set of tires, even if I had planned it out better. For that matter, I only rode the flow trails a little bit that day. I spent most of my time/mileage on variable conditions xc type trails and my tires were fine.

    Oh, sure, in an ideal world, our tires would always be optimally selected for the trail and expected trail conditions. Most of us can't afford to keep that many tires in rotation, nor are we willing to change tires between every ride. There's a certain point where you as the rider have to adapt to the scenario that you're dealt. And sometimes that means taking it easy. Just like how chasing downhill KOM's in the autumn on lightly traveled forest trails is a stupid idea. Or how going balls-out in the forest after a bad wind storm is a really bad idea.

  31. #31
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    I haven't yet seen a 2.6 tire that would be "squared off" on a 30mm IW rim, but they may exist. It's simple enough to look at what you're running and decide whether it's too squared off. In any case, there is no way, IMO, that you'll get remotely close to leaning past the side knobs on dirt.

    In my experience, I do better on loose surfaces with narrower tires at somewhat higher pressure.

    Wider is not always better. I remember years ago driving up Geiger Grade out of Reno in my then high tech Audi Quattro in a snow storm. There wasn't much snow on the road but I was sliding all over the place trying to keep up with a 60's era Chevy Impala. My wide sporty tires and AWD were no match for the narrow tires on the Impalla.

    The next car I got was also an Audi Quattro, but I got the cold WX package which included narrower wheels and tires.
    Do the math.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Sure, my tires are not optimal for dry hardpack flow trails with some moon dust. Given the scenario, dialing back on how fast I hit the turns was the best solution available to me. I didn't have a spare set of tires in my pack to change over in the middle of the woods as soon as I realized the shortcomings of what I had installed. It's also not the sort of trail type that I ride often. I rode those trails ONCE this year. Barely worth spending $100-$150 on a second set of tires, even if I had planned it out better. For that matter, I only rode the flow trails a little bit that day. I spent most of my time/mileage on variable conditions xc type trails and my tires were fine.

    Oh, sure, in an ideal world, our tires would always be optimally selected for the trail and expected trail conditions. Most of us can't afford to keep that many tires in rotation, nor are we willing to change tires between every ride. There's a certain point where you as the rider have to adapt to the scenario that you're dealt. And sometimes that means taking it easy. Just like how chasing downhill KOM's in the autumn on lightly traveled forest trails is a stupid idea. Or how going balls-out in the forest after a bad wind storm is a really bad idea.
    I mean, I was really asking if dialing back was only way to deal with hardpack/loose
    or

    what tires are ideal for hardpack flow and loose over hard?
    like are skinnier and/or smaller knob tires better than the DHFs or Vigilantes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    I'm in that neighborhood weight-wise (when geared up). Like I said, I ride WTB Vig/TB 29x2.6 tires at 12F/17R.
    Agreed, I can't be folding tyres in the sections I'm talking about due to low pressure. I could raise pressure a little to account for the specialized measuring narrowed than a true 2.6 and see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Rager View Post
    I haven't yet seen a 2.6 tire that would be "squared off" on a 30mm IW rim, but they may exist. It's simple enough to look at what you're running and decide whether it's too squared off. In any case, there is no way, IMO, that you'll get remotely close to leaning past the side knobs on dirt.
    The tyres don't look squared off to me despite measuring up at slightly wider than 2.4".

    @EatsDirt I'm still not discounting that it could be the archer, but somehow I think it's a combination of archer+arrow that's not working out.

    So far I think increasing pressure is an easy cheap test some have suggested. I'll try it this weekend.
    Replacing front tyre (or combo) would come next. Butcher front maybe or a Schwalbe/Maxxis combo.
    Skills training/more practice would be next in line if that didn't work.

    For the sake of discussion, what would be the most comparable to a butcher/slaughter combo in the Maxxis and Schwalbe worlds?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Does not take into account tire size, casing stiffness, rim width, riding style, or riding conditions. Or the presence of tire inserts, for that matter.

    Would he be recommending people run those pressures on fatbikes on dry trails, too? Your "setup guru" would probably not know what to do about people riding fatbikes in the snow at 0psi.
    Wow Harold! Who pissed in your cornflakes?
    From the info that the OP provided (tire size, casing stiffness, rim width, riding style, or riding conditions. Or the presence of tire inserts, for that matter.) Sounds similar to me except I'm not sure about his riding conditions. Did I miss that he was using 2.8 on a fat bike????!!!!!!

    As for the comment about the "Set-up guru", that's just silly, obviously he would have different criteria for setting that up properly. He happens to work with one of the larger bike manufacturers, so I'll take his work over yours.....thank you very much!

    I was just offering some feed back like everyone else. I'll politely bow out of this conversation, so you can be the "expert". Good luck dealing with your insecurities and hope you have a better day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    Agreed, I can't be folding tyres in the sections I'm talking about due to low pressure. I could raise pressure a little to account for the specialized measuring narrowed than a true 2.6 and see.
    At low pressures the casing folds around the knobs rendering them less effective. Iíd be willing to bet those tires were not designed around mushball pressures... but do what you like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    At low pressures the casing folds around the knobs rendering them less effective. Iíd be willing to bet those tires were not designed around mushball pressures... but do what you like.
    Yes I understand what you're saying and I agree. I don't think I'm explaining properly, at the very least in the first scenario I simply wasn't riding hard enough for folding to be an issue. In the 2nd, *perhaps* it folded, but debatable based on the first scenario.

    I'll throw some more air in and see how i go.

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    The casing folding around knobs at low pressures is not exclusive to riding hard. Perhaps think of the footprint the tire might leave at 10psi vs 50psi. Undesirable effects aside, at 50psi the knobs will have much more pressure driving them into the ground.

    Laymanís hack explanation... perhaps someone smarterer will come along and elaborate.

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    At 50 psi, there will be more pressure going into the ground at any point sure. What are you expecting, the knobs to dig in, and then generate more surface area to spread the forces out enough for the ground to not breakdown, with the knobs surrounded by dirt that was soft enough to be penetrated by knobs in the first place? Drift/plow through the soft dirt until it's stopped by something hard and supportive, like a rut wall?

    With dry loose-over-hard conditions, stuff I've been riding for years, what you want for good traction on your mtb is simple. You want Maxxis Minions, esp if what you're riding has gotten beat up and neglected. DHF are kinda boat anchor like, but DHR2 is lab tested to be fast rolling, no slower than an Aggressor on the textured steel drum test. Like 32 W (watts of rolling resistance) compared to the DHF's 45+. For reference, an Ikon is like 28ish W, and the Race King is 18ish W. A lot of the popular tires are 45+ W, such as the Magic Mary (similar to Eliminator), esp in the grippier compounds like TrailStar and the other brands' equivalent.

    I'd get into why spreading the load across a larger area with lower pressure in the tires, in order to be less likely to disturb the integrity of the ground, and go into what washing out is technically defined as, but I'm not qualified. Just through trial and error, I came to the answer to just trust in Maxxis Minions. How they do it, I dunno, but I heard years ago that they had some exclusive contract for some Exxon additive that made their rubber compound better on a nano-scale, more gummy and elastic rather than like a pencil eraser.

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    Ah I see what you're saying. I pulled my pressures off the tyrewiz app as a starting point as I was getting deflections at around 20psi and the consensus seems to be lower pressure to eliminate deflections.

    I still feel at the same pressure the butcher feels more confident. Either that or I've lost confidence in this tyre.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    At 50 psi, there will be more pressure going into the ground at any point sure. What are you expecting, the knobs to dig in, and then generate more surface area to spread the forces out enough for the ground to not breakdown, with the knobs surrounded by dirt that was soft enough to be penetrated by knobs in the first place? Drift/plow through the soft dirt until it's stopped by something hard and supportive, like a rut wall?

    With dry loose-over-hard conditions, stuff I've been riding for years, what you want for good traction on your mtb is simple. You want Maxxis Minions, esp if what you're riding has gotten beat up and neglected. DHF are kinda boat anchor like, but DHR2 is lab tested to be fast rolling, no slower than an Aggressor on the textured steel drum test. Like 32 W (watts of rolling resistance) compared to the DHF's 45+. For reference, an Ikon is like 28ish W, and the Race King is 18ish W. A lot of the popular tires are 45+ W, such as the Magic Mary (similar to Eliminator), esp in the grippier compounds like TrailStar and the other brands' equivalent.

    I'd get into why spreading the load across a larger area with lower pressure in the tires, in order to be less likely to disturb the integrity of the ground, and go into what washing out is technically defined as, but I'm not qualified. Just through trial and error, I came to the answer to just trust in Maxxis Minions.
    As boring an answer as it is, I think you're onto something with the Minions. I might rethink my combo based on a dhr front. No idea on width or rear tyre but I'll start there.

    Where did you get the rolling resistance data from. I haven't seen that in tests.

    I think 50psi is an extreme example to help me understand how under inflation may be a contributing factor to my experience.

  41. #41
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    You asked for the source...

    Name:  BikeMagGermanyTireTest.jpg
Views: 121
Size:  52.7 KB
    Name:  BikeMagGermanyTireTest2.jpg
Views: 116
Size:  45.8 KB
    Washing out ... tyres, setup, technique or bad luck?-germanmtbtiretest1.jpg
    Washing out ... tyres, setup, technique or bad luck?-germanmtbtiretest2.jpg
    Washing out ... tyres, setup, technique or bad luck?-germanmtbtiretest3.jpg
    Washing out ... tyres, setup, technique or bad luck?-gerbikemagdhr2shot.jpg
    Washing out ... tyres, setup, technique or bad luck?-highroller2crr.png

    https://www.bike-magazin.de/komponen...ge5.html#start

    Guess I have the correct myself. DHR2 actually faster than I imagined. Maybe I was thinking of the Aggressor's Crr, which I saw as 35ish somewhere, and knew DHR2 recorded a lower one.

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    Thanks! Now that's a tyre test! So how does one track this down if you're not searching in german? Sorry off topic but hell I've googled 'mtb tyre rolling resistance' to death.

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    Google-Fu is something you gain finesse for, to do it more efficiently, if you find that your attempts are wastes of time that lack results. Google-fu how to google-fu, if you aren't too embarrassed to admit you can use an improvement session.

    I actually just pulled this from a few posts I remember seeing on this site. I used the search bar up top and tried to use memory to rediscover it. I searched rolling resistance DHR2 and failed, then remembered the name of the poster "zooey" and searched for that, and found it within a few minutes of using F3 to find posts by zooey, and looked for the links and images.

    https://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires...l#post13141795

    BTW, what bike are you on, and what size? Have you tried to get a feel for how weighting each wheel affects the feedback you get from the ground, over bumps, through corners, etc? What how far forward or aft is your position to get equivalent feeling feedback over bumps on that bike specifically? How far aft to get it to be heavier on the rear (60% rear, 40% front bias)? Do you know how to pump, jump, J-hop and boost? Do pump corners, like they were sideways ramps?

    I ask because sometimes the front end on a bike so long, or the rear end so short, you don't have much choice but to compensate with equipment change. Shorten the fork, lengthen stem, get a grippy front tire with a lot of tall lateral edges (DHF being a prime example). Sometimes you might feel like you overcompensated and the trade-offs are a bit intolerable, like a grippy front tire making it feel like you're riding into a headwind and/or lost fitness. We waste a lot of money optimizing things like this, to appease our ego, essentially giving to its childish tantrums...

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    I'm on a Small 2019 Spec Enduro 29, but I'm running a 650b rear, both in 2.6" with the flip chip in high geo.

    I've had this bike 6 months, been back riding 18 months now last time I rode was 20+ years ago on my BMX.

    I'm focusing on pumping and cornering for the minute, plan to progress to hops and jumps at some point but I'm happy ploughing through with both wheels planted . I'm following Ryan Leech's coaching online.

    I did have a 2.3 DHR/Forekaster combo on another bike. That was quite decent from memory except the Forekaster was copping a beating. Maybe I should look into going to a different tyre combo, 2.6 DHR/Rekon maybe

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    Some of those figures are too small to read.Washing out ... tyres, setup, technique or bad luck?-mountainbikemagazinde-test.jpg

    DHR2, Morsa, Mountain King 2016, Butcher, Ibex.

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    Beware of reviews that base results heavily on limited lab tests. Conti and Schwalbe win those cause they focus on a few tests: rolling resistance and puncture and pinch flat. They lack the many other factors that make the tire that has no major complaints. I've had Maxxis tires last like 3k miles before I started considering something else, due to traction loss on rare steep hill climb. That's something that they don't factor into their grade. They don't grade consistency/reliability either--these tires are fresh.

    Rider impression shootouts tend to be biased too, with people voting for what they get along with, with the tires they're used to setting the standard to beat. Enduro MTB: https://enduro-mtb.com/en/enduro-tires-tested-lab/2/

    That said, I agree with the recommendations in this: https://enduro-mtb.com/en/maxxis-mou...-tires-review/

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Washing out ... tyres, setup, technique or bad luck?-afddlqh.png  


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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    I gotta add, don't underestimate the important of rear tire traction. Try DHR2 front and rear and see what I mean.

    Semi-related: I had my first high side ever on a 2014 Enduro 29, partly because I ran such a combo. I don't believe in coincidences; I believe in extremely complex cause-and-effect. Rear slipped when I railed a bermed corner a bit too tightly on the inside (I entered high on the outside of entry, then cut to the apex sharply), which put me on a deeper lean, with me getting more to the outside of the bike to stay upright, but then the rear tire catches, and the bike uprighted itself strongly. I tried to get out of the bike's way, but was too connected to the front tire for balance and I ended up doing a spectacular front flip. I landed on my back and my rear tire was totally flat.

    I've also initiated some weird fish tail into baseball slide maneuver, because I was practicing sort of a scandi-flick without the skidding, mainly because I didn't adjust the timing and technique to the speed I was moving at correctly. Rear wheel washout first... xD
    How the hell do you analyse your mistakes in the split second it takes to stack? All I know is first I'm riding along ... nek minit ... on the ground or in a tree. Simples

    re: your comment regarding rear tyre traction ... I take it you think the rekon a poor match?

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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    How the hell do you analyse your mistakes in the split second it takes to stack? All I know is first I'm riding along ... nek minit ... on the ground or in a tree. Simples

    re: your comment regarding rear tyre traction ... I take it you think the rekon a poor match?
    PoV footage. I retracted that post, cause I don't like personal anecdote really. No knowing how much of it is embellished from my imagination... I went to verify and looked up the trails it happened on (e.g. Santaigo Oaks Hawk), just to see if it was actually realistic.

    Last time I crashed, I know what happened, but I didn't hear the awful sounds my rims made when they made catastrophic impact. Couldn't really analyze, except from the pictures I took of the scene, and what others told me from another perspective. All that was going through my mind in this case was the freefall inertia taking me in a direction that looked dire the closer to got to it, and me doing a panic maneuver to try and do something better than just freeze up like an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    PoV footage.
    Good point, didn't think of that.

    Biggest problem with this whole thing is finding a new tyre combo if it comes to that. I'll tweak pressure and maybe swap to a butcher first.

    But I think you're right, a DHF or R up front seems like the answer. Just need to decide on an appropriate rear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    But I think you're right, a DHF or R up front seems like the answer. Just need to decide on an appropriate rear.
    DHF(R) / SS
    DHF(R) / DHR
    DHF(R) / High Roller II
    DHF(R) / Aggressor
    DHF(R) / Rekon

    I like the idea of DHR in the front for faster rolling, but I'm not sure what youre giving up in grip versus the DHF

    but the question, indeed, is choosing an appropriate rear...

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by tweeder82o View Post
    I mean, I was really asking if dialing back was only way to deal with hardpack/loose
    or

    what tires are ideal for hardpack flow and loose over hard?
    like are skinnier and/or smaller knob tires better than the DHFs or Vigilantes?
    Don't have a specific tire recommendation, but for one, shorter knobs make a big difference. The Vigilantes have pretty tall knobs. Great for conditions that are highly variable, especially if there's moisture involved. Not so great on hardpack. Regardless of the tire pressure, those knobs are tall enough (with a soft rubber compound to boot) that they fold. You can just press them with your fingers with the bike in a workstand to see what's going on. The DHF my wife runs uses a MUCH firmer rubber compound that doesn't do this nearly as much (and since she's a MUCH lighter rider than me, actually runs pressures not much higher than I do, despite running narrower tires on narrower rims). With the same compound to keep grip, shorter knobs won't fold over so much. In addition to shorter knobs, you can do knobs much closer together, too. You don't need huge gaps for dry moon dust or sand. And the extra rubber in contact with the ground is important.

    The center portion of the Trail Boss is more like what I'm talking about. It's unfortunate, IMO, that WTB made the side knobs on the newer 2.5 and 2.6 TB so much taller than the ones on the older version of the tire. WTB even recommends it as a front tire for hardpack conditions, for what that's worth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graveltattoo View Post
    Wow Harold! Who pissed in your cornflakes?
    From the info that the OP provided (tire size, casing stiffness, rim width, riding style, or riding conditions. Or the presence of tire inserts, for that matter.) Sounds similar to me except I'm not sure about his riding conditions. Did I miss that he was using 2.8 on a fat bike????!!!!!!

    As for the comment about the "Set-up guru", that's just silly, obviously he would have different criteria for setting that up properly. He happens to work with one of the larger bike manufacturers, so I'll take his work over yours.....thank you very much!

    I was just offering some feed back like everyone else. I'll politely bow out of this conversation, so you can be the "expert". Good luck dealing with your insecurities and hope you have a better day.
    Yawn. Overreact much? I was just pointing out that whatever advice your guy gave you was not applicable here. If you want to take that as a personal assault, that's on you. That recommendation probably works well under a specific range of conditions, but for a labeled 2.6 tire with a really stiff casing on a 30mm rim, will most likely be too high. It certainly is for me.

    The equation turns out to work pretty well for my wife, though. She's riding a 27.5" FS. Rims are 24mm wide, tires are 2.35" Maxxis with EXO casings. Just a different scenario from what OP posted.

    Think about the range of possibilities for mountain bikes for a second. you're talking a HUGE range of possibilities. Multiple wheel diameters. 2"-ish - 5"+ tires on rims from about 20mm to 100+mm wide (don't you just love the mixing of measurement systems in mountain bikes?). Conditions ranging from pavement to deep, fresh powder snow. You simply cannot use an equation that accounts only for rider weight. I don't care who you are or who you work for.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    How new are the Eliminators? I found that when fresh, they offered surprisingly good traction (discovered that I didn't have to brake as much in corners and could just "braaap"), but as the edges rounded off, they started become less secure.

    I had considered that in my scenario that summer climate drying things out caused the loss of traction. I landed on my deduction due to my experience switching to a newer tire, a Schwalbe Fat Albert, which had surprisingly good traits. ~400 miles later and now I'm questioning the trustworthiness of these tires too, as their edges soften.

    I honestly never have been able to wear out any high end fancy compound mtb tire bald. I tend to seek new rubber before then. I've been able to justify buying new, by fooling myself that I'm wearing through the grippier outside rubber and the harder rubber underneath the knobs could be at fault.

    Maxxis Minions seem to last for 3k+ miles, but their quality consistency as of late have been kinda iffy, so I've been experimenting. I've had a nearly bald HR2 up front grip well too, but that was DC. Maxxis rubber seems to wear less crumbly...
    Same here. Really dug the 2.6 Eliminator during the hot summer months with the really low rolling resistance but not really digging them anymore. Even when they look the same, they have less traction after a few rides. Also crashed my brains out in an unexpected front wash out.

    That said, those pressures are way too low and any trail tire is going to roll off the rim at those pressures when expected to grip in a turn.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Google-Fu is something you gain finesse for, to do it more efficiently, if you find that your attempts are wastes of time that lack results. Google-fu how to google-fu, if you aren't too embarrassed to admit you can use an improvement session.

    I actually just pulled this from a few posts I remember seeing on this site. I used the search bar up top and tried to use memory to rediscover it. I searched rolling resistance DHR2 and failed, then remembered the name of the poster "zooey" and searched for that, and found it within a few minutes of using F3 to find posts by zooey, and looked for the links and images.

    https://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires...l#post13141795

    BTW, what bike are you on, and what size? Have you tried to get a feel for how weighting each wheel affects the feedback you get from the ground, over bumps, through corners, etc? What how far forward or aft is your position to get equivalent feeling feedback over bumps on that bike specifically? How far aft to get it to be heavier on the rear (60% rear, 40% front bias)? Do you know how to pump, jump, J-hop and boost? Do pump corners, like they were sideways ramps?

    I ask because sometimes the front end on a bike so long, or the rear end so short, you don't have much choice but to compensate with equipment change. Shorten the fork, lengthen stem, get a grippy front tire with a lot of tall lateral edges (DHF being a prime example). Sometimes you might feel like you overcompensated and the trade-offs are a bit intolerable, like a grippy front tire making it feel like you're riding into a headwind and/or lost fitness. We waste a lot of money optimizing things like this, to appease our ego, essentially giving to its childish tantrums...
    Wish I could fully read that tire review. Some of those details don't make sense to me and seem very inconsistent, but since I don't read German I might be interpreting them incorrectly.

    To your point about long bikes, yes you have to sacrifice some RR and over-tire the front to keep it from sliding out ime. It's still a good trade off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tweeder82o View Post
    DHF(R) / SS
    DHF(R) / DHR
    DHF(R) / High Roller II
    DHF(R) / Aggressor
    DHF(R) / Rekon

    I like the idea of DHR in the front for faster rolling, but I'm not sure what youre giving up in grip versus the DHF

    but the question, indeed, is choosing an appropriate rear...
    I keep reading DHR lighter, better rolling, better braking but DHF better/more predictable cornering. Either way at my level I doubt I'll notice the difference.

    If looking at a 29x2.6 DHF(R) EXO+ a matching 27.5x2.6 rear would be limited to:

    DHRII EXO+
    HRII EXO
    Forekaster EXO
    Ardent Race EXO
    Rekon EXO+

    Alternatively Hans/NN 2.6 but I have 0 experience with schwalbe.

    Going narrower opens up more options but I need to keep F/R similar size to lessen any more changes to the HTA & BB height.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Same here. Really dug the 2.6 Eliminator during the hot summer months with the really low rolling resistance but not really digging them anymore. Even when they look the same, they have less traction after a few rides. Also crashed my brains out in an unexpected front wash out.

    That said, those pressures are way too low and any trail tire is going to roll off the rim at those pressures when expected to grip in a turn.
    Interesting, another report of an unexpected washout. Are you running 29 or 27.5? What pressure do you run?

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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    Interesting, another report of an unexpected washout. Are you running 29 or 27.5? What pressure do you run?
    29er. I was at 20psi up front that ride. It hurt!
    I won't ride w/o tire inserts f & r after that incident because I had good luck with the same tire with inserts and decided to mount a new one with no insert earlier that day. Made it about 10 minutes before a big fast crash.


    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    29er. I was at 20psi up front that ride. It hurt!
    I won't ride w/o tire inserts f & r after that incident because I had good luck with the same tire with inserts and decided to mount a new one with no insert earlier that day. Made it about 10 minutes before a big fast crash.


    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    Yeah it sucks! The thing is now every time I look at a corner I'm thinking will it wash out again.

    20 psi is a lot higher than me. I experienced a ton of bounciness at that pressure on my previous 2.6" combo. Would you still run the insert with a heavier casing?

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    The lateral grip is the main reason why DHF is still popular. For real cornering aficionados who don't really care for the compromised braking and extra rolling resistance. They don't need to brake as much for corners and the rolling resistance slows 'em down anyways. xD

    It's a pretty noticeable difference. I used to really like DHF, and miss it, but that time when I took a break from riding that lasted more than a few weeks, and came back to a bike with those tires on a group ride, I was begging for something I didn't need to regularly maintain fitness in order to enjoy.

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    I believe I'll get more out of better rolling resistance than cornering grip which makes the DHR attractive. But then I hear people trimming knobs to make the tyre grip better and not break loose as easily which I can't be bothered with.

    Do you ride the DHR trimmed or not?

  60. #60
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    I have some Butcher 2.6, 2.8, Slaughter 2.6, and Purgatory 2.6 in a box in the closet. Wasn't impressed with any of them. They rolled slow, were undersized, and grip was average. Slaughter was perhaps the most terrible, low grip and not better in rolling resistance. No wonder nobody uses it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    Yeah it sucks! The thing is now every time I look at a corner I'm thinking will it wash out again.

    20 psi is a lot higher than me. I experienced a ton of bounciness at that pressure on my previous 2.6" combo. Would you still run the insert with a heavier casing?
    Same here about being overly cautious in a turn as a result of a crash. I became infected from my injuries and it got a bit serious for a minute there.

    I would attempt to skip on the inserts if I ran heavier duty tires personally. But won't run without them on trail tires or at the bike bark, it's too common to loose air and have an issue.

    My opinion is that any trail tire will roll right off the rim at those low air pressures (not to mention rim damage which is very real also), your experience may be different.

    I had some limited time on a Tioga Edge 22 (only available currently in 27.5") and was really impressed in my short ride. It's a contender for a new front favorite once I get some time on the yet to be released 29er version on my own bike in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    My opinion is that any trail tire will roll right off the rim at those low air pressures (not to mention rim damage which is very real also), your experience may be different.
    I've never rolled a tire off a rim. I've burped them before, but not the current combination I'm using at pressures similar to the OP. No rim dings, either.

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    I don't ride DHR2 trimmed. Run it on the rear too. Hard to beat it and having same tire front and rear feels more predictable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    I've never rolled a tire off a rim. I've burped them before, but not the current combination I'm using at pressures similar to the OP. No rim dings, either.
    Same, never had a rim strike yet, haven't even burped a tyre at those pressures. Every rider and situation is different but I found as I approached 20psi 2.6 tyres started getting bouncy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    I don't ride DHR2 trimmed. Run it on the rear too. Hard to beat it and having same tire front and rear feels more predictable.
    So the next question in my mind is whether to stick with 2.6 or drop to a narrower size (2.4). I'm just thinking I like how my specialised tyres feel, but they are closer to 2.4 than actual 2.6. Not sure how much I'd be losing by downsizing. Anyone dropped down from 2.6 and stuck with it?

    I've also become schwalbe curious, some good deals on at the moment here, about 60% of the cost of Maxxis.
    Last edited by crembz; 3 Weeks Ago at 09:43 PM.

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    I've been having a lot of issues with my DHR2 washing out. a couple bad ones, one really bad one in great conditions, 5 mins into a long descent, had great grip from the front in every corner went into a fairly basic, easy higher speed corner, and suddenly, no bike. it was the most sudden front wash out i've ever had, messed me up pretty bad.

    So anyway.. not a big fan of the DHR2 in the front, its great 90% of the time, and that 10% of the time its not great, it seems like its completely terrible. I trimmed it to give it more of a channel, just now able to get back on the bike so i'll see how i like it, but i've had so many bad experiences with it on the front i'll just test it out a little for curiosity then swap to something else.
    DHF and E13 are still hard to beat. the new E13 looks like it might roll better than a DHF, and if its anything like the old ones, will grip like crazy.

  67. #67
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    I think the DHR2 leans pretty poorly, also rolls poorly.
    It's a solid rear choice, but not great up front imo. Don't get the fascination.
    Probably the slowest overall set of tires I ever ran was an Enduro-MTB tire review winning set up, DHR2 2.4 3C front with a DHF2.5 DC rear. Wolf! Of course it got great traction, I was literally rolling at 60% of my usual speed.

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  68. #68
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    Y'all are overthinking this. The DHR2 has been the front tire on World Cup winning runs. It's a great front tire. Asumming OP isn't folding tires or has some terrible setup, the issue is technique. If you want a tire that's easy to ride then get something like an Assegai or SE4 with transition knobs.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    Y'all are overthinking this. The DHR2 has been the front tire on World Cup winning runs. It's a great front tire. Asumming OP isn't folding tires or has some terrible setup, the issue is technique. If you want a tire that's easy to ride then get something like an Assegai or SE4 with transition knobs.
    You do have a point, I'm not putting anywhere near the demands on the tire that it would go through on a DH run. I'm just surprised how bad of luck i've been having with it. It seems to do great a majority of the time but washes out in such an unpredictable way.

    My thought is that it might not handle intermediate angle's well at all, its those intermediate angles, where i'm not asking much of the tire, when it seems to wash out the most, which is what makes it so surprising. Where the DHF might slide and catch, the DHR might just skate sideways over the center knob's and the side knobs never get a chance to grab. like the center knob's dont dig as well as a DHF so if its not leaned, you've got nothing?

    For me seeing a good amount of loose over hardpack and just straight up loose chunky debris style trail's where its hard to just full commitment lean the bike over and chuck it into a corner, it might just exaggerate the problem. I'm also coming off 2 years of running an E13 front which lets you get away with a lot.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    Y'all are overthinking this. The DHR2 has been the front tire on World Cup winning runs. It's a great front tire. Asumming OP isn't folding tires or has some terrible setup, the issue is technique. If you want a tire that's easy to ride then get something like an Assegai or SE4 with transition knobs.
    Not debating technique as a contributing factor however the tyre which I opened this discussion with is the Spec Eliminator 2.6 which has tranistion knobs. 12 months of riding on tyres without transition knobs 2.3 DHR, 2.6 DHF, 2.6 XR5, 2.6 Butcher and I wipe out on consective rides with this tyre on known trails and near perfect conditions. More than a coincidence I think.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by scandy1 View Post
    My thought is that it might not handle intermediate angle's well at all, its those intermediate angles, where i'm not asking much of the tire, when it seems to wash out the most, which is what makes it so surprising. Where the DHF might slide and catch, the DHR might just skate sideways over the center knob's and the side knobs never get a chance to grab. like the center knob's dont dig as well as a DHF so if its not leaned, you've got nothing?
    I'm buying what you're selling...

    Somewhat related, I have been undercutting/folding the center/outer siped knobs on a maxxgrip DHF (multiple tires). When they start to give out, I'll randomly lose the front on intermediate angles (kitty litter over concrete). The outer edge blocks never have a chance to hook up.

    DHR's lack of linear knobs and those pushing into the channel don't sit well with me as a front. Great rear, seems to let go well before the front (DHF) and rolls a bit faster.

    All this nerding out aside, I'd imagine if you run something long enough you should be able to figure out how to make it work.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    I'm buying what you're selling...

    Somewhat related, I have been undercutting/folding the center/outer siped knobs on a maxxgrip DHF (multiple tires). When they start to give out, I'll randomly lose the front on intermediate angles (kitty litter over concrete). The outer edge blocks never have a chance to hook up.

    DHR's lack of linear knobs and those pushing into the channel don't sit well with me as a front. Great rear, seems to let go well before the front (DHF) and rolls a bit faster.

    All this nerding out aside, I'd imagine if you run something long enough you should be able to figure out how to make it work.
    I think another thing i got used to with the E13 was the flat center tread and overall squareish profile, the side lugs start to engage with just a little lean, so even for really mellow corners at moderate lean angles, you've got the side lugs engaged, and as you lean it more the side lugs just bite harder and harder, so there's really no chance for the tire to "miss" the side lugs.

    I think with a DHF and DHR, and especially on loose over hard flat corners, the tire really NEEDS to be leaned a good amount to get those side lugs grabbing. looking at the E13 and DHR side by side its pretty crazy how tall the center tread is on the DHR. it looks SO round compared to the E13. I probably need to re learn cornering on rounder profile tires, and that you cant get too lazy leaning the bike. I've never had the DHR wash out when i've had it leaned proper.

  73. #73
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    No offence, but I raise the bullshit flag on anybody who thinks a DHF/DHR2 is more work climbing or has more rolling resistance than an E*13 combo (not that anyone necessarily said that - but I am saying it now). I had a 2018 2.3 E*13 combo on i31 (I believe) E*13 rims. I am lucky I survived with no heart attack.

    OP - everyone has their own opinion of what works for them on their bike, in their terrain, and with their riding style. FWIW, I run a 2.5 DHF/Aggressor combo on i30 We Are One Agent rims on my Honzo (with a 140 fork). Best combo I have ever run all round on any bike. Traction is 10/10. My conditions are generally dry AF. Zero - and I mean ZERO washing out with that combo.

    I run a 2.3 DHF/DHR2 combo on i27 We Are One Insider rims on my Druid. Also crazy good, but I think I prefer the combo on my Honzo for the combined goals of predictable cornering and rolling resistance, if that is what you are after. That said, both combos are totally predictable and confidence inspiring. I trust both combos 100% on high speed, dry, loose, non-bermed cornering. Neither has let me down - not even once.

    Again, however, what works for me (and anyone else for that matter) may not be the unicorn for you. IMHO, tire and wheel suggestions are anecdotal and fact specific, at best.

    PS - compared to others here, I do not have nearly the same experience with as wide a variety of tires as they do. So consider my comments with that in mind.
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    Thanks for all the feedback everyone that's heaps to take in!

    I understand that everyone's going to have a combo that works for them. I've been through several combo's now, it's not just the money, but also the time it takes to settle into a combo before deciding you're not happy on them which gets me.

    Best I can do is take in everyone's generous feedback and experiences and try work out what might work for me, rather than shooting from the hip in my relative inexperience.

    I've been looking for a predictable combo for all seasons (pretty dry most of the time, at most damp with almost no mud) mostly hardpack, loose over hard and roots.

    I like the feeling of flow, acceleration and agility on windy trails going corner to corner, between switchbacks, popping over rollers and off drops and so I want to maxmise that aspect of the ride (rolling resistance would be the primary consideration I assume). Most of the trails around here aren't all that steep so carrying speed is important. I ride mainly blue & black trails, some double black but I skip the BIG features.

    I'm still not feeling the spec Eliminator even with increased pressure. Much prefer the 2.6 butcher, which is not available locally (out of stock) or through Specialised Australia (out of stock). I'm pretty much sold on a DHF/Forekaster or Rekon or a MM/RoRa or NoNi combo.

    I need to decide on width (matching f+r), 2.6 vs 2.4(2.35).

    I'd go with ~2.4 for the lower weight, more precise, more flickable? except that I sort of feel like I'm missing out not going with 2.6 for the extra grip, comfort and compliance.

    But then I do like how the Spec 2.6 (2.4 actual) feels and the 2.6 Bontrager tyres I ran I disliked because they bounced way too much at pressures that didn't squirm. Don't know if that's an issue with all 2.6s

    If anyone has ridden both sizes and can help me understand what might give me that would be great!

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by scandy1 View Post
    My thought is that it might not handle intermediate angle's well at all, its those intermediate angles, where i'm not asking much of the tire, when it seems to wash out the most, which is what makes it so surprising. Where the DHF might slide and catch, the DHR might just skate sideways over the center knob's and the side knobs never get a chance to grab. like the center knob's dont dig as well as a DHF so if its not leaned, you've got nothing?
    I agree, if you have the bike upright it's easy to get the DHR2 to slide sideways. However, the pro DH riders tend not to use extreme lean angles since they don't have turns nearly as tight as the average XC trail. I think it was Neko Mullaly who said he doesn't think too much about dropping his outside pedal and instead tends to keep his feet pretty level because they don't have to think about leaning the bike that much on the WC courses. I think the biggest difference is that they're comfortable with the tire drifting a bit before it gets on the side knobs, whereas a lot of amateur riders will tense up when that happens and slide out. I'm good with the DHF and DHR2 most of the time. It does freak me out though when I come into the start of a berm at the bike park at 30+ mph and feel the front drift for a moment...which is why I picked up an Assegai for riding park.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Same here about being overly cautious in a turn as a result of a crash. I became infected from my injuries and it got a bit serious for a minute there.

    I would attempt to skip on the inserts if I ran heavier duty tires personally. But won't run without them on trail tires or at the bike bark, it's too common to loose air and have an issue.

    My opinion is that any trail tire will roll right off the rim at those low air pressures (not to mention rim damage which is very real also), your experience may be different.

    I had some limited time on a Tioga Edge 22 (only available currently in 27.5") and was really impressed in my short ride. It's a contender for a new front favorite once I get some time on the yet to be released 29er version on my own bike in the future.
    What a strange tire the Tioga Edge 22.... I didn't know of his existence...
    Maybe when the 29" will be available i will give it a try.. can you give us some more feedback about this tire? thanks

  77. #77
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    Whenever you get a new tire on the front you should go to a familiar trail with tight, not too fast turns, and ride into the turns too fast, then attempt to oversteer out of the front slide. A good tire will have good properties on oversteer. This is just like autocrossing to get a feel for the car so you can save it on the highway. Your first slide out on a new tire shouldn't be at collarbone risking speed.

    fwiw Martello and Trail King didn't stay on my bike after this test.

  78. #78
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    The most consistent and certain tire set up is the DHF/ Aggressor combo in dry rocky conditions. It works really well. It's just a bit slow rolling if that's your thing.
    I have no problem leaning over a DHR2 on to the side knobs. My tires usually get retired due to torn off side knobs. The tire doesn't lean or roll well. What it does do well is has tons of front braking traction which is why it ends up on DH bikes.
    Never ridden E13s but the old ones were very high traction with very high RR.
    The Edge-22 impressed the heck out of me in a very short ride, but until they are delivering a 29er version that I can well and truly test on my own bike I don't have anything else to say cause I just don't know.

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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Whenever you get a new tire on the front you should go to a familiar trail with tight, not too fast turns, and ride into the turns too fast, then attempt to oversteer out of the front slide. A good tire will have good properties on oversteer. This is just like autocrossing to get a feel for the car so you can save it on the highway. Your first slide out on a new tire shouldn't be at collarbone risking speed.

    fwiw Martello and Trail King didn't stay on my bike after this test.
    Should also add that you should do a minimum of 2 seperate rides on new rubber.
    Brand new tires tend to be really draggy for the first 45 minutes or so. Break in I guess?
    I own a recycling company utilizing 4 big trucks and whenever I install new tires on a Peterbilt the trucks lose 5% mpg for the first couple of weeks for example.

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  80. #80
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    I do let them get dusty and I cut off the mold sprues if any.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    Best I can do is take in everyone's generous feedback and experiences and try work out what might work for me, rather than shooting from the hip in my relative inexperience.

    I've been looking for a predictable combo for all seasons (pretty dry most of the time, at most damp with almost no mud) mostly hardpack, loose over hard and roots.

    I like the feeling of flow, acceleration and agility on windy trails going corner to corner, between switchbacks, popping over rollers and off drops and so I want to maxmise that aspect of the ride (rolling resistance would be the primary consideration I assume). Most of the trails around here aren't all that steep so carrying speed is important. I ride mainly blue & black trails, some double black but I skip the BIG features.

    If anyone has ridden both sizes and can help me understand what might give me that would be great!
    I am glad that you started this thread, I ride in similar conditions and have similar riding goals. I almost started a similar topic a few months ago regarding washing out on flat turns on loose.

    I'm definitely very interested in what you discover regarding tread pattern choice, 2.6v2.4, if it helps with the turns, and if it compromises other aspects of riding (rolling resistance).

    And as your summer rolls in, my riding season is coming to an end so I am in the perfect position to sit in front of the computer and speculate.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    I've also become schwalbe curious, some good deals on at the moment here, about 60% of the cost of Maxxis.
    All the USA sale prices that I have seen on Schwalbes are on old inventory, not Addix compounds. And there is a world of difference.

    Also, many of the Addix compounds have been updated as well recently. For instance Schwalbe told me that their HD2 DH tire rolls better on the drum than their HD1 Snakeskin, both being Addix. Real improvements in that product have been made.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    All the USA sale prices that I have seen on Schwalbes are on old inventory, not Addix compounds. And there is a world of difference.

    Also, many of the Addix compounds have been updated as well recently. For instance Schwalbe told me that their HD2 DH tire rolls better on the drum than their HD1 Snakeskin, both being Addix. Real improvements in that product have been made.
    Yeah I've seen the US prices of schwalbe, a ton cheaper here. 2.6 Dhf 3c mexterra AUD80, 2.6 MM addix soft SS AUD65.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tweeder82o View Post
    I am glad that you started this thread, I ride in similar conditions and have similar riding goals. I almost started a similar topic a few months ago regarding washing out on flat turns on loose.

    I'm definitely very interested in what you discover regarding tread pattern choice, 2.6v2.4, if it helps with the turns, and if it compromises other aspects of riding (rolling resistance).

    And as your summer rolls in, my riding season is coming to an end so I am in the perfect position to sit in front of the computer and speculate.
    Thanks mate, I know the tread pattern choice will make a difference. I don't seem to have any issues with the other tyres I've tried, just this one. I suppose it could also be compound but I thought that would play a bigger role in the wet/damp.

    The width though I can't decide on. I really don't want to buy a set of each cos I know one of them will end up tossed aside ... $120 wasted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    I need to decide on width (matching f+r), 2.6 vs 2.4(2.35).

    I'd go with ~2.4 for the lower weight, more precise, more flickable? except that I sort of feel like I'm missing out not going with 2.6 for the extra grip, comfort and compliance.

    But then I do like how the Spec 2.6 (2.4 actual) feels and the 2.6 Bontrager tyres I ran I disliked because they bounced way too much at pressures that didn't squirm. Don't know if that's an issue with all 2.6s
    Does anyone have any feedback they can share on 2.4 v 2.6 sizes?

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    Does anyone have any feedback they can share on 2.4 v 2.6 sizes?
    I'd go with 2.3-2.5 for aggressive riding. I have 2.6's on my hardtail and they are a bit bouncy and imprecise. Whatever amount of traction they add is insignificant compared to tread pattern and compound. The 2.6 Rekon that replaced the 2.3 Aggressor on the back of my hardtail has less traction. I'd say 2.3-2.5 for performance and 2.6 for comfort.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    I'd go with 2.3-2.5 for aggressive riding. I have 2.6's on my hardtail and they are a bit bouncy and imprecise. Whatever amount of traction they add is insignificant compared to tread pattern and compound. The 2.6 Rekon that replaced the 2.3 Aggressor on the back of my hardtail has less traction. I'd say 2.3-2.5 for performance and 2.6 for comfort.
    That's perfect thanks, there just seems to be so much talk about the benefits of wider tyres that I feel like I'm missing out going to 2.35" schwalbe.

    But going narrower should bring the additional benefit of significantly less weight, tougher sidewalls, faster acceleration right?

  88. #88
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    On a 29er you want an actual width of about 2.35-2.42 in the rear and about 2.43-2.5 in the front.

    Anything wider is quite terrible in my experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    But then I do like how the Spec 2.6 (2.4 actual) feels and the 2.6 Bontrager tyres I ran I disliked because they bounced way too much at pressures that didn't squirm. Don't know if that's an issue with all 2.6s
    The bigger the tire, the greater the chances for undesirable bounciness and other odd handling characteristics (if you ever experience self-steer, that'll be "fun"). The tire's casing becomes especially important to help deal with these things without running pressures so high that they negate the benefits of such a tire size.

    It can be hard to tease out the differences when you're looking at small differences in tire size (ie 2.4 to 2.6) but if you jump to a notably larger tire size, those differences can become especially obvious. Speed is a major factor here, too. I feel VERY differently about a given tire size when I'm crawling slowly through technical stuff vs. bombing a downhill.

    So the answer to your question is yes, and no.

    Based on the sorts of things you want to maximize on your ride, a slightly narrower (and therefore lighter) tire would probably benefit your riding better. Bigger rubber and the extra weight that comes with it will be good for monster-trucking through technical stuff. "Extra grip" might not necessarily translate in all conditions. When you've got bigger tires and loose conditions, you can actually have LESS grip because the bigger tire can float on top of the loose material and slide around above it. SOMETIMES you want that flotation (deep sand, snow, where you have no hope of cutting through to a solid substrate beneath), but there are other cases where you decidedly don't want that.

    I find 2.6" tires to be a nice happy medium for riding a hardtail where I do. The extra cush from the bigger tires is nice for a hardtail in particular. 2.6 isn't SO big that I run into nearly as much unacceptable bounciness (like I get on my Salsa Bucksaw on fast, chattery downhills that overwhelms the suspension and becomes terrifying), but I get some of the benefits of larger tires on slow, crawling tech. If I had a longer travel FS (I eventually will), I'd probably run smaller tires, since I'd have the suspension to make up for some of the differences with narrower tires.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    On a 29er you want an actual width of about 2.35-2.42 in the rear and about 2.43-2.5 in the front.

    Anything wider is quite terrible in my experience.
    Being a mullet, would 2.4-2.5 front, 2.6 rear make any sense? I wonder.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    The bigger the tire, the greater the chances for undesirable bounciness and other odd handling characteristics (if you ever experience self-steer, that'll be "fun"). The tire's casing becomes especially important to help deal with these things without running pressures so high that they negate the benefits of such a tire size.

    It can be hard to tease out the differences when you're looking at small differences in tire size (ie 2.4 to 2.6) but if you jump to a notably larger tire size, those differences can become especially obvious. Speed is a major factor here, too. I feel VERY differently about a given tire size when I'm crawling slowly through technical stuff vs. bombing a downhill.

    So the answer to your question is yes, and no.

    Based on the sorts of things you want to maximize on your ride, a slightly narrower (and therefore lighter) tire would probably benefit your riding better. Bigger rubber and the extra weight that comes with it will be good for monster-trucking through technical stuff. "Extra grip" might not necessarily translate in all conditions. When you've got bigger tires and loose conditions, you can actually have LESS grip because the bigger tire can float on top of the loose material and slide around above it. SOMETIMES you want that flotation (deep sand, snow, where you have no hope of cutting through to a solid substrate beneath), but there are other cases where you decidedly don't want that.

    I find 2.6" tires to be a nice happy medium for riding a hardtail where I do. The extra cush from the bigger tires is nice for a hardtail in particular. 2.6 isn't SO big that I run into nearly as much unacceptable bounciness (like I get on my Salsa Bucksaw on fast, chattery downhills that overwhelms the suspension and becomes terrifying), but I get some of the benefits of larger tires on slow, crawling tech. If I had a longer travel FS (I eventually will), I'd probably run smaller tires, since I'd have the suspension to make up for some of the differences with narrower tires.
    Thanks for taking the time to write that Harold. My other bike is a hardtail also running mixed wheel sizes and Specialized 2.6 butcher/purg.

    I'm happy with the cushioning I get on these trails on the 2.4 actual width tyres. I guess I just have to make sure the tyres I do end up with are actually 2.4" wide then.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    Being a mullet, would 2.4-2.5 front, 2.6 rear make any sense? I wonder.
    If I was running a mullet bike I'd run a 2.5 in the rear.

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    Just had a couple good rides on my cut DHR front after being out from injury, my first time being able to really ride hard with it cut.
    Its a pretty significant improvement. Much less of that unsure feeling when initiating a corner, with it uncut, the initial response you'd get from the tire when starting to lean and turn the bike was vague, almost never got that solid hooked up feel letting you know you could push the the tire, like it was skating across the surface, but with some grip.

    Now with the cut version, when you push into the tire and initiate your turn, you get a solid gripped up feel and can push on it quite a bit more. and when you get it leaned its a more reassuring locked in feel, where before it would feel good when leaned, but not locked in, unless you were super leaned. it still likes to be leaned, but you dont need to be so exaggerated with it to get reassuring grip from the front.

    I'm guessing in my conditions, being hard, dusty and loose over hard, and some loose rock, the stock DHR just has too much surface area on the center tread, with the less surface area the center tread seems to be able to penetrate the little bit of dust or loose on the trail and create some reassuring grip where before it was more resting on that loose layer.

    And without that wide paddle center tread, I thought it'd be more vague when you're transitioning to leaning, but instead its the opposite. seems like that paddle tread was killing the grip at moderate lean angles. now it seems to just hand it off to the side knobs faster, where before that paddle wasn't digging in but skating over the surface and preventing the side knobs from engaging sooner. I think if you pushed into the tire at all while that paddles still contacting the ground, thats when i'd get those sudden wash outs.

    Still not as reassuring as the e13. but i'd say cutting it brings it right up there as a real solid front, especially if you want something a little faster rolling.

    I'm trying out the new e13 in the front now, but want to get some back to back rides on a cut DHR vs DHF, and try the dissector in the front too.

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    Once again thanks to everyone who weighed in on this one. I thought I'd respond with how I got along.

    I ended up with 2.35" wide Schwalbe MM/HD snakeskin addix soft combo.

    They ended up measuring out within 1mm of the spec 2.6 at riding pressures.

    I've had a few rides on them on my usual hardpack/loose over/rooty/loamy trails. First ride I was not 100% comfortable with them, but I had decided to run a higher psi than I think is necessary.

    I settled on 20psi rear (650b) 16psi front (29er).

    The next two rides out and they felt amazing, raster rolling, more playful, more communicative and grippy as I need.

    I've had the front slide slightly cornering through shallow mud but it was super controllable and the rear slide over a wet root (hit at an angle) but again controllable.

    I PRd both climbs and descents, not saying that it's all tyres, but the tyres feel a lot more confidence inspiring so I'm probably pushing harder.

    I'm glad I did not opt for the 2.6 Schwalbe

    What it took to get here"

    2.6 DHF/DHF - too heavy, too draggy
    2.6 XR5/XR4 - too bouncy, difficult to dial pressure
    2.6 Eliminator/Slaughter - Washouts
    2.35 MM/HD - Pretty happy so far and definitely my pick over the rest

  95. #95
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    Good to hear. As you start to ride faster in rougher terrain you'll probably have to bump those pressures up 5-10 psi though.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    Once again thanks to everyone who weighed in on this one. I thought I'd respond with how I got along.

    I ended up with 2.35" wide Schwalbe MM/HD snakeskin addix soft combo.

    They ended up measuring out within 1mm of the spec 2.6 at riding pressures.

    I've had a few rides on them on my usual hardpack/loose over/rooty/loamy trails. First ride I was not 100% comfortable with them, but I had decided to run a higher psi than I think is necessary.

    I settled on 20psi rear (650b) 16psi front (29er).

    The next two rides out and they felt amazing, raster rolling, more playful, more communicative and grippy as I need.

    I've had the front slide slightly cornering through shallow mud but it was super controllable and the rear slide over a wet root (hit at an angle) but again controllable.

    I PRd both climbs and descents, not saying that it's all tyres, but the tyres feel a lot more confidence inspiring so I'm probably pushing harder.

    I'm glad I did not opt for the 2.6 Schwalbe

    What it took to get here"

    2.6 DHF/DHF - too heavy, too draggy
    2.6 XR5/XR4 - too bouncy, difficult to dial pressure
    2.6 Eliminator/Slaughter - Washouts
    2.35 MM/HD - Pretty happy so far and definitely my pick over the rest
    That's a great set up ime.

    I'd encourage you to order a set of Tubolight wheel inserts and install them front and rear. The reality is that those tires offer more traction than those low air pressures can withstand. Plus the Snakeskins are pretty flimsy. They hold up surprisingly well to cuts, but they move a lot.

    Good Luck!

    PS. BTW I have a 2 brand new, latest version 29 x 2.35 Schwalbes I'd sell shipped in the USA for $70. One is the HD2 and the other is the Rock Razor.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    That's a great set up ime.

    I'd encourage you to order a set of Tubolight wheel inserts and install them front and rear. The reality is that those tires offer more traction than those low air pressures can withstand. Plus the Snakeskins are pretty flimsy. They hold up surprisingly well to cuts, but they move a lot.

    Good Luck!

    PS. BTW I have a 2 brand new, latest version 29 x 2.35 Schwalbes I'd sell shipped in the USA for $70. One is the HD2 and the other is the Rock Razor.
    I have a set of rimpacts sitting here but to be honest I might move to a heavier casing when the time comes as opposed to using inserts or raising pressures. So far I seem to be doing fine art those pressures.

    Going by touch, these snakeskins do feel more robust than the grid casings on the specs they replaced. Even their ability to stand up under their own weight is better.

    Had another 25km ride today on some rougher rockier downhill trails away from home, again the tyres didn't let me down. I did run out of talent off one jump and landed at the doctor's ... But can't blame the equipment for that one 😂

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post

    2.6 DHF/DHF - too heavy, too draggy
    2.6 XR5/XR4 - too bouncy, difficult to dial pressure
    2.6 Eliminator/Slaughter - Washouts
    2.35 MM/HD - Pretty happy so far and definitely my pick over the rest
    I love 2.5-2.6''ers (especially DHF, too bad it gets completely caked in specific mud conditions) and recently tested a 2.6'' Magic Mary (Soft, apex snakeskin) as my 2.6''(2.35") Hillbilly turned out to be less-than-stellar (despite the rave reviews) on wet roots but man is the MaMa draggy and clumsy in 2.6'' on the trails, I guess the 2.35'' version of MaMa is the way to go.

  99. #99
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    I've just swapped the front Hellkat 2.4 ATC 120tpi dual compound to an Hellkat AEC 60tpi with super sticky low rebound rubber(42a) both center and side knobs...
    Hope this will help in winter with low temperatures and many wet roots/rocks...

    Some reviews says that hellkat is very similar to magic mary.
    The Hellkat AEC in 29x2.4 is only 1030gr. and you have a supersoft compound (similar to maxxgrip)
    I will give it a try this weekend...

  100. #100
    Oaktown Honkey on Strava
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    My opinion is that you should check your Rebound setting on your fork. You weigh same as I do, 190 pounds. IF, IF You are a very aggressive, very experience rider, you can be running fork rebound at near fastest setting, with front 2.6 tire inflated around 18-20 PSI to avoid squirm. If you are intermediate rider ignore this post. Because of my 30 years of Mt biking habits in my cornering, and my faith in the earth, I need alot of support (Fast Rebound) on stock forks.

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