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  1. #1
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    Washing out front tire spec butcher 2.6

    Hi All, after a bit of advice. I recently picked up a 2019 alloy comp stumpy. Love the bike. It came with butcher 2.6 front, purgatory 2.6 rear. Since having it I've stacked a couple times by losing the front. Once on a fast flat turn which I'll go session. The other on a DH course and had a heavy fall

    I notice a spot on the tire where they suddenly slide out but it's usually controllable. I assume this is before I really lean them onto the size knobs. I don't want any strange areas on the tire which are not predictable I want it consistent.

    Should I bite the bullet and try a DHF? Are they more predictable? I've read about butchers sort of having a drift zone build in.

    I'm 78kg tire pressure front is 23psi

    Btw, I'm not an aggressive rider so I'm probably not pushing onto the side knobs enough. Will a DHF help or just persist and focus on getting more aggressive with leaning the butcher

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    Install a dhf 2.5 3c.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wired00 View Post
    Hi All, after a bit of advice. I recently picked up a 2019 alloy comp stumpy. Love the bike. It came with butcher 2.6 front, purgatory 2.6 rear. Since having it I've stacked a couple times by losing the front. Once on a fast flat turn which I'll go session. The other on a DH course and had a heavy fall

    I notice a spot on the tire where they suddenly slide out but it's usually controllable. I assume this is before I really lean them onto the size knobs. I don't want any strange areas on the tire which are not predictable I want it consistent.

    Should I bite the bullet and try a DHF? Are they more predictable? I've read about butchers sort of having a drift zone build in.

    I'm 78kg tire pressure front is 23psi

    Btw, I'm not an aggressive rider so I'm probably not pushing onto the side knobs enough. Will a DHF help or just persist and focus on getting more aggressive with leaning the butcher
    A DHF is similar enough to a Butcher that it's not going to solve the issue.
    Either keep your setup and learn to find the side of the tire or get a tire that is more your style.
    You could put that purgatory on the front. You might find it more predictable.

  4. #4
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    Are you weighting the front wheel enough coming into the turns? If youre not driving the front tire into the turn with enough weight it will wash out.

    Both of these tires do have a bit of a dead intermediate zone before you fully engage the side lugs.


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    Ok thanks all. Yeah, instead of new tire I'll just work on technique. I'll go session a couple corners once I recover.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wired00 View Post
    Hi All, after a bit of advice. I recently picked up a 2019 alloy comp stumpy. Love the bike. It came with butcher 2.6 front, purgatory 2.6 rear. Since having it I've stacked a couple times by losing the front. Once on a fast flat turn which I'll go session. The other on a DH course and had a heavy fall

    I notice a spot on the tire where they suddenly slide out but it's usually controllable. I assume this is before I really lean them onto the size knobs. I don't want any strange areas on the tire which are not predictable I want it consistent.

    Should I bite the bullet and try a DHF? Are they more predictable? I've read about butchers sort of having a drift zone build in.

    I'm 78kg tire pressure front is 23psi

    Btw, I'm not an aggressive rider so I'm probably not pushing onto the side knobs enough. Will a DHF help or just persist and focus on getting more aggressive with leaning the butcher
    I'm ~72kg riding weight, running a Nobby Nic 2.6 on a 30mm rim on the front, and I'm using ~14psi. You should try lower pressure, as you said you "session" a flat corner so try it with different front tire pressures.

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    As fsrxc says, you're way out of the optimum pressure range for getting a big footprint and maximum traction from your front end. You'd have to be blasting at DH speeds through rock gardens to need anything near that pressure. Take a gauge if you have one and a small pump and let rim hits be your guide. Experiment and use your tire pressure as a tuning option.
    Some 2.6s can use a 40mm inner rim.

  8. #8
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    23 psi is nowhere near "out of range" for grip in a 2.6 Butcher for a 170lb rider.

    OP could certainly run less pressure depending on terrain/speed and and cornering ability + style.

    A bit less psi sure, go for it.

    However, we have no idea of what the OP's suspension is set up like. Is it balanced? is the fork too stiff? Does the rear wallow? Does the OP have good cornering technique? Etc, etc, too many variables that have yet to be identified before saying that PSI is the fix.

    If a rider can't corner confidently on a Butcher, a DHF isn't the fix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 11053 View Post
    23 psi is nowhere near "out of range" for grip in a 2.6 Butcher for a 170lb rider.

    OP could certainly run less pressure depending on terrain/speed and and cornering ability + style.

    A bit less psi sure, go for it.

    However, we have no idea of what the OP's suspension is set up like. Is it balanced? is the fork too stiff? Does the rear wallow? Does the OP have good cornering technique? Etc, etc, too many variables that have yet to be identified before saying that PSI is the fix.

    If a rider can't corner confidently on a Butcher, a DHF isn't the fix.
    this all makes a lot of sense especially your last sentence. cheers

    i'm currently sag at 20% front, 30% back and most certainly not a very good cornering technique but not bad either. I have fox rhythm 34 front. If I set 30% sag I will bottom out some of the drops on my local trails. 1 token or 2 and 30% sag is an option for sure. Currently fork has zero tokens.

  10. #10
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    Im 97kg, on a 2.35 tire at 19psi. You're really high in pressure.

    I don't like how tires like that corner. I can't lean like that all the time. I went with a hans dampf instead. Much better 90% of the time.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by wired00 View Post
    this all makes a lot of sense especially your last sentence. cheers

    i'm currently sag at 20% front, 30% back and most certainly not a very good cornering technique but not bad either. I have fox rhythm 34 front. If I set 30% sag I will bottom out some of the drops on my local trails. 1 token or 2 and 30% sag is an option for sure. Currently fork has zero tokens.
    There truly are a lot of variables here as 11053 states and frsxc brings up a good point on tire pressure. As you most likely know rim width definitely impacts the effective tire pressure you can run with wider rims allowing you to run lower psi to a point. I run sub 20 psi in my 2.35-2.6 (higher volume) front tires on 30mm IW rims, depending on terrain of course. 22-23 psi is not out of whack here depending on rim width. So you should play with the tire pressure. You can also go too wide on rim width and square up the tread profile and negatively affect handling. 25-35mm IW is optimal for tires up to 2.6 wide.

    The general comments on the tires are assuming you have your suspension set up optimally. I like to try and balance the suspension front to rear and not necessarily with sag but how the bikes rides when you are on top of it and driving it into the corners and terrain features. Im not sure what your suspension travel is but you might want to add a token or two to adjust air volume in the fork to give it more support and bottom out resistance without loosing the supple top end.

    Id suggest working on cornering technique and weight distribution front to rear and focusing on driving that front tire into the turns. Id also suggest playing with suspension set up and tire pressures but only change one thing at a time so you can effectively bracket the changes to keep tract of what the effects each variation accomplishes.


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  12. #12
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    Get your weight forward and try a bit more pressure. Id start about 28psi.

    A 2.3 Butcher will be faster and easier to use.

    A DHF also has the drifty channel not recommended for novice riders. (The Butcher was designed by the same dude, basically as a version 2 of the DHF). Again, the narrower DHF will be faster and easier.
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    I've got this same problem with the WTB Trailboss. I've yet to master it either. Sometimes it sticks great, other times it washes when you don't expect it. I'm also thinking more weight on the front of the bike but its easier said than done.

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    It seems pretty straightforward. You don't have to spend a dime. No new anything not even a tire.
    Let some air out and see what happens.
    In the old days of 21mm or 19mm rims you couldn't lower the pressure because the tire sidewall would fold over when cornering for instant loss of traction and a crash. Bigger knobs was the only option.
    With wider rims the sidewall gets supported and it crumples instead for a bigger footprint and lots more traction.

    If you have a section with lots of rocks and you get rim hits at that spot add a little air back in until you don't get hits.
    Front tires often need 4-5lbs. less air than a rear.

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    Up your pressure on that tire. It seems backwards but try it around 27 or 28 psi. The 2.6 casing folds over pretty bad and will start a pretty wild drift feeling. I prefer the 2.3 in the new butcher.

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    Id watch this, cornering with Fabiel Barel, there is a section where he shows the technique to avoid front wheel washout. Mostly body position to make sure you weight the wheel properly.

    https://youtu.be/gF5K9V2w6W8

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    Pressure depends on grip levels IMO. A tyre might fold over at 20psi, but only if the grip is there - if it's loose and dusty then I leave the pressure low (DHF2.6 @ 17psi, 75kg rider).

    The Butcher and DHF have the transition zone/gap - they bite well, but can be unsettling if you're not used to them. If you want something more progressive in nature, look at tyres with more even tread spread (in order of grip levels, Rocket Ron > Nobby Nic/Forekaster > Magic Mary). If a Butcher/DHF just isn't biting enough, my instinct would be to go for a Magic Mary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wired00 View Post
    I notice a spot on the tire where they suddenly slide out but it's usually controllable. I assume this is before I really lean them onto the size knobs. I don't want any strange areas on the tire which are not predictable I want it consistent.
    Correct. Tires such as the Butcher, DHF, and High Roller have a sizable open channel between the centre tread and the side knobs, this is allows the side knobs to really dig in and grab when the bike is fully leaned over in a turn. However, this results in a drifty zone where the tire can slide out fairly easily when it's only partially leaned over.

    If you want consistent traction with no dead zones, look for a tire that has an even distribution of knobs from the middle to the edge with no open channels in the pattern. But be aware that there are trade-offs, the cornering limit will be lower since the side knobs can't be fully weighted and sunk into the ground without an open channel next to them. It's like saying I don't want the edges on my ice skates to grab and dump me on the ice if I get sloppy with my skate control. Well yes, we can do that, by dulling the edges a bit, but then you can't turn as hard or stop as fast as having nice sharp edges on the blades. Same concept applies to tires, if you want ultimate cornering traction you need that open channel next to the side knobs, but then you get a drift zone and your riding technique has to be adjusted accordingly. Get sloppy and you go down.

  19. #19
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    When I wash out the front tire, it's because of mistakes in technique, but that's just my experience.

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    Check your fork too - if the rebound is too fast it can get a bit skippy.

    If you want a cheater tire - get the Maxxis Shorty. Probably the most consistent front tire I have ever ran in any condition.

  21. #21
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    Just an FYI, the Butcher 2.6 is really a 2.4" tire.

    Since having it I've stacked a couple times by losing the front. Once on a fast flat turn which I'll go session
    These tall knob tires don't do so well on hardpack. The knobs are designed to dig in to soft terrain.

    I have the 2.6 Purg/Butcher combo on a wheelset. Aside from rolling slowly, I'm quite happy with it, though I think the Purgatory is a better tire. If I had to do it all over I'd go Purg/Purg.

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    +1 for Magic Mary if you still want a full on aggressive tyre but more predictable, or try the new Maxxis Assegai which is similar.

    Otherwise the Nobby Nic is about the most predictable tyre around I find, but it doesn't quite have the overall grip of the Mary.

  23. #23
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    Gosh tire pressures are all over the place. Watch that Barel video, lean your bike, not your body.
    Another good drill is to take your inside foot off the pedal and hold it level with the front axle as though your were going to dab mid corner.
    The Butcher is a good tire.

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    If the front Butcher folds over on a 30mm inner rim that'll tell you the sidewall isn't being supported enough. The response is to go with a wider rim, say 40mm. If the tire is only 2.4 I don't think it should fold over. Let the pressure down to 14 and put sideways pressure on it with your bars when stopped. And look at the sidewall at the ground. It should crinkle not fold over. A Bontrager XR2 Team 2.35 would work on that rim. at 14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    If the front Butcher folds over on a 30mm inner rim that'll tell you the sidewall isn't being supported enough. The response is to go with a wider rim, say 40mm. If the tire is only 2.4 I don't think it should fold over. Let the pressure down to 14 and put sideways pressure on it with your bars when stopped. And look at the sidewall at the ground. It should crinkle not fold over. A Bontrager XR2 Team 2.35 would work on that rim. at 14.
    The new butcher grid tire is very foldy no matter what rim you run. If you take the tire off it will no lean up against the wall and stay in a cirlcel like a maxxis EXO will. It will be a big lump on the floor. It is not thinner per say on the sidewalls ( I have not used a mic to check for sure) but not as stiff a casing so it does fold bad in corners with lots of traction then turns into a death slide. The tire actually works much better in the looser conditions compared to the more traction conditions where the casing folds. I will tell the OP again. add more air and try it again, trust me this is a higher pressure tire. The BLK DMND version of this is another story, but it weights 1400 grams in 29x2.3. I really like this tire in the stronger casing.

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    All good advice.

    It's a new bike so getting used to it. My old bike had a 2.3 purg on the front.

    The new rims are 29mm inner width.

    Conditions are definitely dry/dusty hardpack. I will persist with it a little while (try more pressure and less), then try either a magic mary or purgatory 2.6 on front.
    Last edited by wired00; 08-07-2018 at 07:23 PM.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    The new butcher grid tire is very foldy no matter what rim you run. If you take the tire off it will no lean up against the wall and stay in a cirlcel like a maxxis EXO will. It will be a big lump on the floor.
    I had to try it; here you go. Tire is resting on the tip of the chair and leaning against the wall, otherwise unsupported.

    Makes me wonder how many posts on this forum are people talking completely out of their ass.


  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    If the front Butcher folds over on a 30mm inner rim that'll tell you the sidewall isn't being supported enough. The response is to go with a wider rim, say 40mm. If the tire is only 2.4 I don't think it should fold over. Let the pressure down to 14 and put sideways pressure on it with your bars when stopped. And look at the sidewall at the ground. It should crinkle not fold over. A Bontrager XR2 Team 2.35 would work on that rim. at 14.
    Yes, an XR2 to replace a Butcher. Brilliant.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Yes, an XR2 to replace a Butcher. Brilliant.
    It's a speshul upgrade for speshul riders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    I had to try it; here you go. Tire is resting on the tip of the chair and leaning against the wall, otherwise unsupported.

    Makes me wonder how many posts on this forum are people talking completely out of their ass.

    i have 4 of them, none of mine will stand up for more than a few seconds. Im not talking out my ass because you are able to do it 1 time in one photo. the tire folds over and causes a wash. I am not the only person to notice this. Should i post a picture of mine piled up on the ground and say I told you so? How long did it stay up like that? how long did it take to get it to stand up? do it with a maxxis next to it and leave it for a bit then get back to me about talking out my ass.

    PS notice the shape of that tire.... looks nice and stable.............

  31. #31
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    I just grabbed it leaned it on the wall. Then put the chair and set it on there for extra effect. It was crammed in a box before. It's still up there.

    So yeah, you don't know what you're talking about.

  32. #32
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    This thread has headed into silly world, now. The Butcher works fine on hardpack.

    14 psi (lol) or 40mm rims are unnecessary/silly for cornering a Butcher or DHF or similar tire. These are some of the best all around tires made, but do require some technique.

    A tire leaning against a wall is meaningless as regards the OPs issue.
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  33. #33
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    A tire doesn't need to fully fold to throw you off line. Just the tire starting to fold(squirm) will throw you off or cause the contact patch to shrink.

  34. #34
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    Better technique will always help but the equipment makes a difference. I washout on my old hardtail probably once every couple months. Better technique would help but on the other hand I haven't washed out on my FS bike yet. The hardtail is too small so it's much harder to get the right balance. The hardtail also has a 2.3 DHF on the front on 21mm inner width rims and that's definitely not ideal.

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    This thread is hilarious.


    Wired, the whole bike is new. I don't think you can jump to the tires being the culprit. If your old mtb is more than 3 years old it has a much shorter front end. New stumpy needs to be ridden more 'over the front,' and if you're not keeping enough weight on top of the front tire it will wash out. Lowering your bars can help a lot, if you haven't done so already.

    I don't see a reason to start throwing parts at a new bike.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    I don't see a reason to start throwing parts at a new bike.
    Nothing wrong with trying out different tires.

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    I agree with the OP. The butchers can be drifty.

    Im on the same bike, same tyres.

    Have been on 29ers for a few years and have always run a Maxxis DHF 2.5 up front.

    The Butcher took maybe 50km to scrub in and lose its waxy, skatey feel.
    Played with pressures going lower and lower into the teens with no result so ended up back at 25psi. (Im 85kg)

    It is great in the dry on hardpack, rocky trails and pine needles over clay where i ride in the summer

    It does need to be purposefully leant over to engage the side knobs or it will feel vague and drifty.

    Overall i feel it rides more like a High Roller 2 than a Dhf.

    If i were the OP I'd grab a 2.5 DHF in a 3c and give it a try. I'm sure you will feel more confident straight away.

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    Forget about tires & ride the drift. Chin over the bars. Shorten the Stem & lower them if you need to. I used to be terrified of Kitty litter in the corners.

    Once you have the confidence step up to Super Grav or DD sidewalls.

  39. #39
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    The Eliminator 29 x 2.6 is at least as good as the DHF 2.5. The Butcher however doesn't exhibit the same side traction in my dry rocky conditions.



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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    Up your pressure on that tire. It seems backwards but try it around 27 or 28 psi. The 2.6 casing folds over pretty bad and will start a pretty wild drift feeling. I prefer the 2.3 in the new butcher.
    This ^^^, I bought some Grid Specalized tires and wouldn't even mount them. The new Grid is thinner and less supportive than EXO.

    Id put at least 25 psi at the 0Ps weight. And more weight on the front and lean the bike more.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    A tire doesn't need to fully fold to throw you off line. Just the tire starting to fold(squirm) will throw you off or cause the contact patch to shrink.
    Plus if its starting to fold the side knobs are being pushed into the tire and not the ground.

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    Imo, go out to that corner with a camera and a tire pump. Session it and record yourself from the front so you can see your technique. Do this at multiple different tire pressures.

    Afterwards, you will know what psi you feel more comfortable on. As for the video, watch it yourself and compare to what others are doing. Don't post it here or you will just end with people arguing over your form , and a ton of conflicting opinions will likely hurt you more than help (depending on who you listen to).

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    This ^^^, I bought some Grid Specalized tires and wouldn't even mount them. The new Grid is thinner and less supportive than EXO.

    Id put at least 25 psi at the 0Ps weight. And more weight on the front and lean the bike more.
    Yes, I bought the Spesh tires from you!

    I run Pepi's inserts front and rear and I swear that Eliminator I bought from you is my all time favorite tire, and I've tried most of the major competitors in this segment.

    Thanks again for the tires.

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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    This ^^^, I bought some Grid Specalized tires and wouldn't even mount them. The new Grid is thinner and less supportive than EXO.

    Id put at least 25 psi at the 0Ps weight. And more weight on the front and lean the bike more.
    SSSHHHHH dont bring this up, the fanboys will say you are crazy and full of it... haha

    We wont bring up the fact that the testing done by the team guys on the EWS was always done with cush cores in the tires at the races... or that they came up with the BLK DMD to help fix all the flats folks were having........ Or that many people feel the same way. Or that once you put the same tire on with cushcore in it the tire is quite amazing. Or that some folks push harder than others in the corner. When 200+ lb rider is saying they rock 18 psi in a 2.5 with no issues then it is safe to say, they take the safe way down the mountain and will not test the flex of the side wall. ... just sayin.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Yes, I bought the Spesh tires from you!

    I run Pepi's inserts front and rear and I swear that Eliminator I bought from you is my all time favorite tire, and I've tried most of the major competitors in this segment.

    Thanks again for the tires.

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    How's it holding up? You ride dry and rocky trails right? If we ever get a dry season I'd try them. But probably in Black Diamond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    ssshhhhh dont bring this up, the fanboys will say you are crazy and full of it... Haha

    we wont bring up the fact that the testing done by the team guys on the ews was always done with cush cores in the tires at the races... Or that they came up with the blk dmd to help fix all the flats folks were having........ Or that many people feel the same way. Or that once you put the same tire on with cushcore in it the tire is quite amazing. Or that some folks push harder than others in the corner. When 200+ lb rider is saying they rock 18 psi in a 2.5 with no issues then it is safe to say, they take the safe way down the mountain and will not test the flex of the side wall. ... Just sayin.
    lmao! So true.

  47. #47
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    The 2.6 Butcher is not that great on hardpack and loose over hardpack, the Minion is much better in those conditions (I've run both). The Butcher's knob are in phase (aligned side to side) to allow for mud evacuation, but for loose over hard, you want out of phase knobs (Minion) to capture the loose dirt. Minion center knobs are flatter with a better sipe for hardpack as well.

    The 2.6 Butcher is foldy on an i30 rim and I could not run the pressure low enough to get the benefit of the big tire. 2.6 tires need wider rims to support the sidewall at griptastically low pressures (15 psi) and hold up to landing jumps.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    When 200+ lb rider is saying they rock 18 psi in a 2.5 with no issues then it is safe to say, they take the safe way down the mountain and will not test the flex of the side wall. ... just sayin.
    I weigh 198 and am down to 14psi in the front with a 2.6 Vigilante, ran 15-16psi on a 2.6 Minion, both on an i37 rim. I huck trail nuggets and land sideways, no fold. I hate a foldy sensation.

    I have 2 years of experience with this type of set up. In the summer I ride the Sierra crest which as a few rocks and some descending.

    Until you have actual experience with a wide rim (i34+) and 2.5/2.6 tire with a decent sidewall, I'll say your crazy and full of it ... just saying.

    There is reason an i30 rim is now baseline for trail and up bikes and more wider rims are filling the market.

    P

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    How's it holding up? You ride dry and rocky trails right? If we ever get a dry season I'd try them. But probably in Black Diamond.
    Yes, all dry and rocky terrain.

    I'm pretty hard on tires, I tear knobs off of all my tires usually within 6-7 weeks just riding 1-2x/ week. My riding strength is when we have really rough terrain and one needs to maintain momentum thru turns and undulating terrain, I typically will motor away from most people under these conditions.
    As a front these Spesh tires wear amazing, best I've seen. The front Butcher I had on before was lacking a bit in side traction but it rolled so darn well, but I thought: 'it's not damaging itself because I can't get enough traction when I'm leaned over'. But then I installed that 2.6 Eliminator up front, using the 80g lightweight Pepi's noodle, and I can crank that thing over at least as well as a 3C DHF. But it does roll considerably better than a DHF. It's easily the best front tire set up I've ever ran and I've ran many.
    It's true that anything short of an Exo casing will sort of roll off the rim without inserts even when running around F24/ R28 on 30ish ID wheels. But I find it's a better overall package to run a lightweight insert combined with a standard tire. We ride some really sharp rocks and I really don't have tire failures. The tire's are more stable with the insert than an Exo (or even a DH casing), it's also lighter overall with much less pedaling penalty, they flat ride better, you can run notably lower air pressure, your wheels are more likely to survive, and in a pinch you can ride home on the insert so usually no need to carry a tube.
    I wish I had kept the 2.3 you sold me and tried it out in the rear, but I had sold it off to a buddy that needed a tire in a pinch thinking I wouldn't use it. Generally I like more of a block type, close knobs on the rear tire anyways.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Yes, all dry and rocky terrain.

    I'm pretty hard on tires, I tear knobs off of all my tires usually within 6-7 weeks just riding 1-2x/ week. My riding strength is when we have really rough terrain and one needs to maintain momentum thru turns and undulating terrain, I typically will motor away from most people under these conditions.
    As a front these Spesh tires wear amazing, best I've seen. The front Butcher I had on before was lacking a bit in side traction but it rolled so darn well, but I thought: 'it's not damaging itself because I can't get enough traction when I'm leaned over'. But then I installed that 2.6 Eliminator up front, using the 80g lightweight Pepi's noodle, and I can crank that thing over at least as well as a 3C DHF. But it does roll considerably better than a DHF. It's easily the best front tire set up I've ever ran and I've ran many.
    It's true that anything short of an Exo casing will sort of roll off the rim without inserts even when running around F24/ R28 on 30ish ID wheels. But I find it's a better overall package to run a lightweight insert combined with a standard tire. We ride some really sharp rocks and I really don't have tire failures. The tire's are more stable with the insert than an Exo (or even a DH casing), it's also lighter overall with much less pedaling penalty, they flat ride better, you can run notably lower air pressure, your wheels are more likely to survive, and in a pinch you can ride home on the insert so usually no need to carry a tube.
    I wish I had kept the 2.3 you sold me and tried it out in the rear, but I had sold it off to a buddy that needed a tire in a pinch thinking I wouldn't use it. Generally I like more of a block type, close knobs on the rear tire anyways.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    Good to hear that its woking good for you! The tread looks good for dry and drifty soil. Will probably run them if i ever get such soil lol.

  51. #51
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    Just want to throw it out there that if you run too low PSI on your tires, the sidewalls could become compromised. Have done so on Maxxis and WTB.

  52. #52
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    I enjoyed re-reading this thread.

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    Washing out front tire spec butcher 2.6-screen-shot-2019-10-07-11.44.35-pm.jpg

    Why does the Maxxis brochure rate the Assegai as worse for cornering control than the DHF?

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsilvers View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Why does the Maxxis brochure rate the Assegai as worse for cornering control than the DHF?
    I don't know exactly what they mean by cornering control. I do think the DHF might have greater peak cornering traction in most terrain and the wide channel gives it a very definitive precise feel when you get onto the cornering knobs. The Assegai has transition knobs and so while it doesn't have the drifty feel during cornering transitions, it also doesn't have that locked in feel once you're on the cornering knobs. Maybe the DHF is better when you know the course really well and the Assegai better when you don't know what to expect.

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    I am working on technique that I learned recently at a clinic. The instructor told us to stand next to the bike and lean it over until the front washed out. Then he had us do it again with putting pressure on the outside handlebar. It was impossible to get the tire to slip. So then he had us work on cornering by putting pressure on the outside bar.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narrowback View Post
    I am working on technique that I learned recently at a clinic. The instructor told us to stand next to the bike and lean it over until the front washed out. Then he had us do it again with putting pressure on the outside handlebar. It was impossible to get the tire to slip. So then he had us work on cornering by putting pressure on the outside bar.
    Yeah, near the apex you want a bit of pressure on the outside grip. Really the issue is getting your weight to the outside. Sometimes it's hard to lean the bike without using your weight to get it to lean over(leaning on the inside grip). One trick is to focus on getting your hips to the outside of the corner. So rather than focus on leaning the bike in, you focus on pushing your hips out (which subsequently leans the bike in).

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    Yeah, near the apex you want a bit of pressure on the outside grip. Really the issue is getting your weight to the outside. Sometimes it's hard to lean the bike without using your weight to get it to lean over(leaning on the inside grip). One trick is to focus on getting your hips to the outside of the corner. So rather than focus on leaning the bike in, you focus on pushing your hips out (which subsequently leans the bike in).
    Yeah that makes sense; lean the bike but not your body, so to speak.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narrowback View Post
    Yeah that makes sense; lean the bike but not your body, so to speak.
    Yeah but often easier said than done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    Yeah but often easier said than done.
    Ain't that the truth, just like putting pressure on the outside grip. I have to constantly remind myself of that. Keep riding and practicing and someday it may feel natural, right?

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    This is a useful thread as I was never really sure if I should lean with the bike or try to just lean the bike. Also if you just search around on YouTube you can find many "how to turn fast" videos that don't even mention this.

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    i ride with the butcher in rear and hillbilly in the front. there is a clear difference between them, the hillbilly is simply amazing. the butcher was my front tire through the summer, but can see that it packs quite a bit in comparison. butcher is comparable to the dhf, but i dislike the issue with maxxis tires deflecting in high speed rough bits. WTB and specialized tend to have much better damping. but the hillbilly is way past the minions grip. never rode a shorty, but have a feeling that would be more fair to compare to the hillbilly.

    in terms of getting the grip settled i have a small trick when learning cornering. the hardest turns are usually flat or offcamber, so i personally find a place where there is flat packed sand (common around where i am) and practice cornering and getting the two wheel drift going. I hit the turn as fast as possible, no brakes and slowly upping the speed until i am unable to make the turn. it might look like goofing off, but it's really just trying to get a feel for the limit.

    when you do it right, you will see where your front tire grips into the turn, then both wheels grip or drift in the middle of the turn, and your rear tire grips out of the turn. if your front wants to wash, you need more weight on it, same with rear.

    look at the grip patterns in the sand and see how the tire is contacting to see if your lean angle is actually getting the side knobs engaged. you should work to ensure that all 3 areas of the turn have the side knobs engaged.

    most of the cornering advice is based around getting this to happen, so practicing where you can clearly see the end result can indicate which technique you need work on. the "lean the bike, not the body" is about getting this to happen in a way where you have control when it lets go which you can also get a feel for while doing this. if you overcook the turn and your leaning with the bike, your going down with the ship. if you are leaning the bike but not body, you can usually recover and control the slip.

    i do this at least once a week to keep a handle on how it should be given how my bike is set up. i also make a point of doing it after switching stems / bars / tires which can have a HUGE effect.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZHaunDK View Post
    in terms of getting the grip settled i have a small trick when learning cornering. the hardest turns are usually flat or offcamber, so i personally find a place where there is flat packed sand (common around where i am) and practice cornering and getting the two wheel drift going. I hit the turn as fast as possible, no brakes and slowly upping the speed until i am unable to make the turn. it might look like goofing off, but it's really just trying to get a feel for the limit.
    what radius turn or radii of turns do you use for this? or as tight as possible?

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    i do 3 bike lengths for a 180 degree turn. I wouldnt go smaller because i want to hit it at speed. my only pupose in doing that is to get a feel for weighting the wheels right. i swap between 800mm and 32mm stem to 760mm and 45mm stem depending on what race i'm doing next. It's kinda drastic in this turn, how you have to change your riding style, bike between the two setups.

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