Tubeless Setup: Tire Blowing off Rim, Still Usable?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Tubeless Setup: Tire Blowing off Rim, Still Usable?

    Hey, I've been running ghetto tubeless with great success for several years. Yesterday I was changing tires and had my first one blow off the rim. Setup: 650B Velocity Blunt with Fire Pro XC 2.1 tire. 24" Split tube with Stan's. Tire had previously been setup the same for 500 miles or so. I set it up one night. It had all leaked out the next morning. I pumped it up to 60psi and did the shake flip method. About ten minutes later, the tire blew off the rim and shot Stans everywhere. Obviously, the bead was not well situated or it wouldn't have all leaked out the night before or blown off. So the question is: Is it safe to use this tire again to set up tubeless? I just set it up a little while ago and pumped up to 45psi. Everything looks good but I'm going to give it time. What do yall think? Safe or no? Issue here is its 650B which is a hard tire to find and not available locally. Have a 60 mile race this weekend so its either run tubeless or throw a tube in (which I hate). Other 650B tire is a Nevegal 2.35 which is just too heavy and slow rolling to use on this course. Thanks in advance.
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  2. #2
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    ive blown a tire off my rim, i wouldnt trust it in a tubeless set up.

  3. #3
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    60 psi is way too high. there are only downsides to pumping tires that high.
    it blew off more than likely because the bead stretched. even if it's not permanently stretched, it's probably more likely now to do that again.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckie33
    Hey, I've been running ghetto tubeless with great success for several years. Yesterday I was changing tires and had my first one blow off the rim. Setup: 650B Velocity Blunt with Fire Pro XC 2.1 tire. 24" Split tube with Stan's. Tire had previously been setup the same for 500 miles or so. I set it up one night. It had all leaked out the next morning. I pumped it up to 60psi and did the shake flip method. About ten minutes later, the tire blew off the rim and shot Stans everywhere. Obviously, the bead was not well situated or it wouldn't have all leaked out the night before or blown off. So the question is: Is it safe to use this tire again to set up tubeless? I just set it up a little while ago and pumped up to 45psi. Everything looks good but I'm going to give it time. What do yall think? Safe or no? Issue here is its 650B which is a hard tire to find and not available locally. Have a 60 mile race this weekend so its either run tubeless or throw a tube in (which I hate). Other 650B tire is a Nevegal 2.35 which is just too heavy and slow rolling to use on this course. Thanks in advance.

    60 mile race your stuck with a tube and a new tire....also check the rim very closly for damage especially around the valve stem to see if the excess pressure split the rim which may hve caused the tire to blow off

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    60 mile race your stuck with a tube and a new tire....
    Confused, are you saying don't use the tire? It seems to be holding up fine right now. Been steady pressure at 40psi for 3 hours now. I'll check out the rim. I've always pumped them up that high to aid in setting the bead and eliminating leaks. I read that somewhere a long time ago. Riding pressure is more like 28psi.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckie33
    Confused, are you saying don't use the tire? It seems to be holding up fine right now. Been steady pressure at 40psi for 3 hours now. I'll check out the rim. I've always pumped them up that high to aid in setting the bead and eliminating leaks. I read that somewhere a long time ago. Riding pressure is more like 28psi.

    Yes do not use the tire for the race.....

    I had a Conti UST Vertical blow off a Mavic UST rim...caused by tiny rim split at the valve stem, from over pressure 55 psi.

    The tire would blow off my other UST rims at 45 psi or so....it did blow off on a trail at 28 psi...the bead had stretched.

    On the other hand due to the same rim....hadn't figured it out... another tire blew off...

    That tire never blew off again and performed well....

    In light of the disappoint of a blow off on a 60 mile race....donot use the tire...

    Again examine the rim very careful for any signs of damage especially near the valve stem.

    Install a new tube and tire and do the race...

    Alternatively buy a new tire and rim and then do the race...

    I would suggest that maybe a month of riding I would start to get comfortable with any other set-up.

    Don't blow your 60 miler.

  7. #7
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    I was putting a new tire on my stans no tubeless kit rim, the tire blow up, everytime i try to put air it kept blowing up, even try with tube and no luck, hope u can still use that tire, but i wasnt able to use the tire at all.

  8. #8
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    cut your losses, no reason to risk dental/medical expense when it blows on a ride.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    cut your losses, no reason to risk dental/medical expense when it blows on a ride.
    Kind of what I'm thinking. It's holding great right now and squeezing and trying to get it to blow off and it won't happen. I'm thinking it was a fluke blow off and its fine but not sure its worth the risk. I can imagine a nice OTB if it blows off while I'm on it.

    Just realized Competitive Cyclist is in Little Rock right on my route to the race. I'll be stopping there tomorrow to pick up a Quasi Moto 650B for the race.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckie33
    Kind of what I'm thinking. It's holding great right now and squeezing and trying to get it to blow off and it won't happen. I'm thinking it was a fluke blow off and its fine but not sure its worth the risk. I can imagine a nice OTB if it blows off while I'm on it.

    Just realized Competitive Cyclist is in Little Rock right on my route to the race. I'll be stopping there tomorrow to pick up a Quasi Moto 650B for the race.

    You don't go over the bars when a front tire blows off....

    Well unless you are dumb enough to grab a handful of front brake at the same time.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    You don't go over the bars when a front tire blows off....

    Well unless you are dumb enough to grab a handful of front brake at the same time.
    I had a tire blow once, right after landing a double...it wasn't grabbing brakes that ****ed me, but with the rim digging into the soft dirt that the tire would float on, it cut the wheel hard enough to throw me sideways...into a tree. That was a year ago and I still have hip and lower back problems.

    Am I a dumb? Probably not. Would my possible dumbness determine what happened when that tire blew? Nope.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    I had a tire blow once, right after landing a double...it wasn't grabbing brakes that ****ed me, but with the rim digging into the soft dirt that the tire would float on, it cut the wheel hard enough to throw me sideways...into a tree. That was a year ago and I still have hip and lower back problems.

    Am I a dumb? Probably not. Would my possible dumbness determine what happened when that tire blew? Nope.

    You were planning to land nose first???

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    You were planning to land nose first???
    1. Where did it say I landed nose first?

    2. In this case I actually matched the transition perfectly, but to show how dumb your question is, let's keep going...

    2. a. Landing perfectly matching the transition doesn't prevent the failure I had

    b. Landing nose first (as you seem to think is wrong?) actually helps in situations where the landing isn't very long or steering is a necessity for exiting the feature. This technique can be utilized to plant both wheels in the same spot on the landing, which reduces the patch of ground you need to land. It also increases control and lets you transfer momentum forward. It isn't a comfortable technique to master, but is very comfortable once you have mastered it.

    c. Landing rear-wheel first, which is what many seem to do, is most often done out of a lack of experience or feeling for the bike in the air. If your rear lands first, the momentum is transferred to your front end, slamming it down (which could cause a tire to blow). This causes a lack of control. Also, when you don't have the front wheel down, it is hard to control your direction, as your steering input isn't touching the ground. Rear-wheel landing is great when you are hucking to flat though, as there is lots of impact and nowhere to go.


    Feel free to let me know why it is still my fault, bud.
    Especially in light of the tire blowing as I was rolling out of the landing, not on the impact.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    1. Where did it say I landed nose first?

    2. In this case I actually matched the transition perfectly, but to show how dumb your question is, let's keep going...

    2. a. Landing perfectly matching the transition doesn't prevent the failure I had

    b. Landing nose first (as you seem to think is wrong?) actually helps in situations where the landing isn't very long or steering is a necessity for exiting the feature. This technique can be utilized to plant both wheels in the same spot on the landing, which reduces the patch of ground you need to land. It also increases control and lets you transfer momentum forward. It isn't a comfortable technique to master, but is very comfortable once you have mastered it.

    c. Landing rear-wheel first, which is what many seem to do, is most often done out of a lack of experience or feeling for the bike in the air. If your rear lands first, the momentum is transferred to your front end, slamming it down (which could cause a tire to blow). This causes a lack of control. Also, when you don't have the front wheel down, it is hard to control your direction, as your steering input isn't touching the ground. Rear-wheel landing is great when you are hucking to flat though, as there is lots of impact and nowhere to go.


    Feel free to let me know why it is still my fault, bud.

    I always get a kick out of people who have an accident and then explain how they were doing everything right and they are not at all at fault...

    Every accident as multiple causes that when chained result in the mishap...

    If you were perfect it wouldn't have happened ergo you are not perfect and contributed to the accident...

    Sooner or later you will admit too yourself what you could have done differently to avoid the accident....

    Kinda like Fukashima nuke plants...etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    I always get a kick out of people who have an accident and then explain how they were doing everything right and they are not at all at fault...

    Every accident as multiple causes that when chained result in the mishap...

    If you were perfect it wouldn't have happened ergo you are not perfect and contributed to the accident...

    Sooner or later you will admit too yourself what you could have done differently to avoid the accident....

    Kinda like Fukashima nuke plants...etc.
    I always get a kick out of people that put words in others' mouths, and then when prompted for clarification, obfuscate by referencing natural disasters, nuclear mishaps and the like.

    The fault would exist somewhere in setting up the system (which I had been running for 2 years), not in the event.



    Now that I admit there must be fault, school me again on reading comprehension and landing technique.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    I always get a kick out of people that put words in others' mouths, and then when prompted for clarification, obfuscate by referencing natural disasters, nuclear mishaps and the like.

    The fault would exist somewhere in setting up the system (which I had been running for 2 years), not in the event.



    Now that I admit there must be fault, school me again on reading comprehension and landing technique.

    Still a perfect rider eh....

    It seems like this might take quite a while for you to admit your faults.....kinda like nuc engineers forgetting about the tsunami, after the earthquake.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    Still a perfect rider eh....

    It seems like this might take quite a while for you to admit your faults.....kinda like nuc engineers forgetting about the tsunami, after the earthquake.
    Ha. Far from it, but that tire didn't blow because of my landing the bike. Hell, I am glad it didn't go a bit further up the hill in tight corridors.

    If I were a "perfect rider" maybe I would have recognized the sound of the tire blowing and...fell before the tree? The tree might be 3-4 bike lengths from the gap and I was moving at a good clip to make the 8'+ gap...you can run some numbers and let me know how fast I should have reacted.

    As for engineers "forgetting" about the tsunami, I'd suggest you read this post by a professor at MIT about the situation. Learn about "Defense of Depth" and how engineers take it into account when designing nuclear power plants.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    Still a perfect rider eh....

    It seems like this might take quite a while for you to admit your faults.....kinda like nuc engineers forgetting about the tsunami, after the earthquake.
    So you keep avoiding :
    1. Justifying your assumptions about how I landed/putting words in my mouth
    2. Schooling me on why landing nose-first is apparently bad

    Just a friendly reminder.

  19. #19
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    To get semi back on topic from the petty argument, I've tried to find where I got the idea to inflate to 60psi to seat the bead. I'm guessing it was from a youtube video or something. I know I didn't invent that on my own. Just read on notubes.com where he says never over 40psi. I won't do it again but I've put 60psi in probably over 10 ghetto setups and been fine until the other day. Always lowered them for riding. I won't be trying it again though. Thanks for the advice. I'll running a new tire this weekend.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    You don't go over the bars when a front tire blows off....

    Well unless you are dumb enough to grab a handful of front brake at the same time.
    Excuse me for not being an expert on the type of crash that occurs when a tire blows off the rim mid ride. I could see myself bombing a downhill when the tire blows and possibly having the wheel turn sideways throwing me OTB, even if the bars are sideways. I'd be willing to bet that someone has gone OTB from a blow off or flat at some point even without grabbing the brake. Thanks for that commentary though. Very helpful. In seriousness, I appreciate your earlier insight, just not this one and the argument that has ensued.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckie33
    Excuse me for not being an expert on the type of crash that occurs when a tire blows off the rim mid ride. I could see myself bombing a downhill when the tire blows and possibly having the wheel turn sideways throwing me OTB, even if the bars are sideways. I'd be willing to bet that someone has gone OTB from a blow off or flat at some point even without grabbing the brake. Thanks for that commentary though. Very helpful. In seriousness, I appreciate your earlier insight, just not this one and the argument that has ensued.
    Well take it has you like.... I am I firm believer that you have control over your life, and the mistakes you make are your fault not anyone else's.


    All my blow-offs have been easily controlled just like a flat tire....

    Unless the tire hangs up on the forks (can happen with a flat too)....You just ride it out.

    My last flat happened down a steep rocky embankment with a 3 foot drop, I got a cut from the limestone and it deflated immediately....rode it out just fine thanks.

    I suspect that CZ coulda , shoulda, woulda reduced his damages quite a bit....

    He just ain't going there right now or for the near future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckie33
    To get semi back on topic from the petty argument, I've tried to find where I got the idea to inflate to 60psi to seat the bead. I'm guessing it was from a youtube video or something. I know I didn't invent that on my own. Just read on notubes.com where he says never over 40psi. I won't do it again but I've put 60psi in probably over 10 ghetto setups and been fine until the other day. Always lowered them for riding. I won't be trying it again though. Thanks for the advice. I'll running a new tire this weekend.

    Again the rims have a pressure limit built into them independant of the tire.....

    the hoop stress (imagine the force that makes an inner tube fat has you blow it up)...

    Exceeds the strength of the clincher rim hook...the hook bends out and the tire "blows-off".

    That is why you need to inspect the rim very carefully for a crack, the crak will be down the center of the rim.....almost always near the weak point of the rim (the valve stem hole).

    The hoop stress increases with increased tire diameter...Mavic rates the maximum pressure as a function of tire diameter...

    I also run Shimano they state a maximum pressure of I believe 55 psi, but I run some 1,5 inch tires at 80 psi happily for 1.5 years now....

    So inspect your rim. use a magnifing glass....rim damage may also allow slow air leaks to occer in tubeless operation.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    Well take it has you like.... I am I firm believer that you have control over your life, and the mistakes you make are your fault not anyone else's.


    All my blow-offs have been easily controlled just like a flat tire....

    Unless the tire hangs up on the forks (can happen with a flat too)....You just ride it out.

    My last flat happened down a steep rocky embankment with a 3 foot drop, I got a cut from the limestone and it deflated immediately....rode it out just fine thanks.

    I suspect that CZ coulda , shoulda, woulda reduced his damages quite a bit....

    He just ain't going there right now or for the near future.
    ::

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    ::



    Huh Bad case of last worditis as well....

    Well last emoticon-itis anyway.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    Again the rims have a pressure limit built into them independant of the tire......
    This is not true. The larger the tire, the greater the hoop stress for the same pressure. Therefore pressure limits are not independent of tire size. Manufacturers typically give pressure limits that apply to the recommended tire size (of which the largest is the driver), but there is enough margin of safety that exceedance doesn't mean automatic failure.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    This is not true. The larger the tire, the greater the hoop stress for the same pressure. Therefore pressure limits are not independent of tire size. Manufacturers typically give pressure limits that apply to the recommended tire size (of which the largest is the driver), but there is enough margin of safety that exceedance doesn't mean automatic failure.

    Well I well start with Yes.... just so you son't go of the deep end...

    Both Shimano and Stans state a fixed pressure limit of either 55 psi or 40 psi or so...no dependance on tire size...

    Mavic states a pressure limit as a function of tire diameter....which follows the hoop stress...


    Since I happily run my shimano rims at 80 psi rather than the max stated by Shimano (55psi) we can see that indeed hoop stress is a function of tire diameter...

    I believe Mavic states a max pressure off about 120 psi for a 1.5 inch diameter tire, which is why I comfortably inflate to 80 psi...

    So again yes hoop stress is a function of tire size yet some manufacturers donot use this in their documentation...(I have recieved no documention from shimano that states tire pressure as a function of tire size have you?).

    I refer to a Mavic UST SLR rim and a SHimano UST XTR rim.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    Well I well start with Yes.... just so you son't go of the deep end...
    not taking the bait, but this is particularly funny given the context of this thread and your blathering about personal responsibility.
    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    Both Shimano and Stans state a fixed pressure limit of either 55 psi or 40 psi or so...no dependance on tire size...
    oh yeah?


    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    Mavic states a pressure limit as a function of tire diameter....which follows the hoop stress...
    I know. This makes my point, as do Stan's specs.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    Again the rims have a pressure limit built into them independant of the tire.....

    the hoop stress (imagine the force that makes an inner tube fat has you blow it up)...

    Exceeds the strength of the clincher rim hook...the hook bends out and the tire "blows-off".

    That is why you need to inspect the rim very carefully for a crack, the crak will be down the center of the rim.....almost always near the weak point of the rim (the valve stem hole).
    I have thoroughly inspected the rim and it is fine. I don't think the bead was ever seated well and that's why I had the blow off. Thanks for all the insight.
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  29. #29
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    Threads like this make me never want to ride tubeless. I realize it's a lighter, slightly softer setup and reduces chances for snakebites and pinches, but it probably wouldn't be worth the paranoia that would come with it.

    As for a blow-off or other form of sudden deflation of your front tire not being grounds for going endo, I imagine a lot of it has to do with timing and terrain---if the trail is steep and scalloped, it's going to be very difficult to come to a controlled stop. I found myself in such a situation last season and barely managed to hold it together.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    You don't go over the bars when a front tire blows off....

    Well unless you are dumb enough to grab a handful of front brake at the same time.
    Had a mythos xc blow off on the front wheel on the first ride around the block on my f3000 in 99. I went otb because the tire wedged in the fork preventing any more rotation.
    Not because I hit brakes.
    Having a tire blow off at speed trends to throw you, unlike just getting a flat.

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