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  1. #1
    ccm
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    spoke tension drops 30Kgf after putting tire on Stans MK3

    spoke tension drops 30Kgf after putting tire on Stans MK3 and airing up to 30 psi)
    wondering for wheel building if max tension for the rim (125Kgf in case of Arch MK3) is determined before or after mounting a tire?

  2. #2
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    I do final tensioning with the tire filled just for that reason. I never noticed this as much years ago, but all of my recent builds this is definitely the case. I think tubeless beads and tubeless rims that are meant to "lock" more securely put the rim under more compressive force. Whether that's true or not, you can see that there's a big difference when the tires are mounted.
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  4. #4
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    Yes it happens. I would just retension the drive side to100 kgf with the tire on and inflated to 40psi.

  5. #5
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    Super lightweight rim's will lose more tension then All mountain carbon hoops. Don't go overboard getting max tension with the tire on. If you flat it will over tension the wheels and you could break parts. I like to check tension and true my wheels with the tires on if possible. Gives a more accurate reading of how the wheel is in real life.

  6. #6
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    Having the correct tension with the tire mounted and filled seems to be more important to me, otherwise you are starting with something that you know isn't up to spec.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  7. #7
    Ride Fast Take Chances :)
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    I agreed. Although I would not retention to max with a tire on. 24% over tension without a tire would scare me.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    I agreed. Although I would not retention to max with a tire on. 24% over tension without a tire would scare me.
    certainly.

    and if you don't retension at all, then combine that with a low-pressure tire that might find the rim in a big hit... you will have problems.

    this might be a good use case for schwalbe procore. or, obviously, a different tubeless tire that doesn't fit as tightly and thus doesn't reduce tension as much.

  9. #9
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    The 125kgf tension recommendation takes into account the tension drop, it's a well known phenomenon. You can add more tension back once you have a tire mounted and inflated, but you may end up with cracks at the spoke holes eventually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgaddis1 View Post
    The 125kgf tension recommendation takes into account the tension drop, it's a well known phenomenon. You can add more tension back once you have a tire mounted and inflated, but you may end up with cracks at the spoke holes eventually.
    Out of 5 sets of wheels I have built, I just had my second set do this saturday. It was an extremely significant drop in tension. My question is this.....suppose the max tension takes into account tension drop with a tire mounted........Fine but what about your non drive side which already has a lower tension than the drive side and is not near max tension to start with by nature. The non drive side ends up being WAY under tensioned. Other than that I understand what you're saying. I re tensioned my Duallies saturday with tires mounted tubeless. This was after initially seating the beads at 30 psi, pulling core, adding sealant, and airing back up to 25 psi or so. Maybe I should go back today after work and let some tension back out of the spokes?

    FWIW...I started with drive side tensions, rear tire, reading around 20-21 on my Park tension guage. Non drive side was reading around 17. With a 1.7 mm DB round spoke, 21 equates to around 122 kfg. After mounting a plus tire and adding air, the drive side went down to around 17 on the tool while all my non drive sides were under 15. I can live with the 16-18 reading but under 15? Thats low. I don't have my chart in front of me but I think thats way under 60 kfg.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by iowamtb View Post
    Out of 5 sets of wheels I have built, I just had my second set do this saturday. It was an extremely significant drop in tension. My question is this.....suppose the max tension takes into account tension drop with a tire mounted........Fine but what about your non drive side which already has a lower tension than the drive side and is not near max tension to start with by nature. The non drive side ends up being WAY under tensioned. Other than that I understand what you're saying. I re tensioned my Duallies saturday with tires mounted tubeless. This was after initially seating the beads at 30 psi, pulling core, adding sealant, and airing back up to 25 psi or so. Maybe I should go back today after work and let some tension back out of the spokes?

    FWIW...I started with drive side tensions, rear tire, reading around 20-21 on my Park tension guage. Non drive side was reading around 17. With a 1.7 mm DB round spoke, 21 equates to around 122 kfg. After mounting a plus tire and adding air, the drive side went down to around 17 on the tool while all my non drive sides were under 15. I can live with the 16-18 reading but under 15? Thats low. I don't have my chart in front of me but I think thats way under 60 kfg.
    Its quite universal that spoke tension can range and still have an operable wheelset...but for how long. Why not take out the guess work and stick w/ manufactures recommended procedure?

    If you feel like changing the recipe (going above tension) you might develop rim cracking. If the tension is really low on the DS you can break spokes but IME the low tension was from the initial build process not destressing enough. During a build I will run the DS to max tension and let the NDS fall where it may be but try and even out the tesnion from NDS spoke to spoke. After the tires are installed the tensiometer and stand are packed away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keen View Post
    Its quite universal that spoke tension can range and still have an operable wheelset...but for how long. Why not take out the guess work and stick w/ manufactures recommended procedure?

    If you feel like changing the recipe (going above tension) you might develop rim cracking. If the tension is really low on the DS you can break spokes but IME the low tension was from the initial build process not destressing enough. During a build I will run the DS to max tension and let the NDS fall where it may be but try and even out the tesnion from NDS spoke to spoke. After the tires are installed the tensiometer and stand are packed away.
    I understand what your saying. Thank you for that.

  13. #13
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    I've found the Park TM-1 shows a higher force that what actually exists above 100kgf. If I tension to a calibrated 130 kgf, that feels REALLY TIGHT even on properly lubed nipples and nipple seats.

    Since you like building wheels, I advise getting a $30 digital hanging scale and making a wooden tension meter. You might find you can go a bit tighter on your spokes.

    Otherwise, as long as you keep your tires inflated, there's no additional stress on the rim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    I've found the Park TM-1 shows a higher force that what actually exists above 100kgf. If I tension to a calibrated 130 kgf, that feels REALLY TIGHT even on properly lubed nipples and nipple seats.

    Since you like building wheels, I advise getting a $30 digital hanging scale and making a wooden tension meter. You might find you can go a bit tighter on your spokes.

    Otherwise, as long as you keep your tires inflated, there's no additional stress on the rim.
    somebody also told me that it wasnít as critical when the tire wasnít on the rim and the rim was static as it was when the tire was and you were actually bombing down a trail. Iím not sure if Iím gonna be in a hurry to build anything but I would be interested in links to what youíre referring to if you have any.

  15. #15
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    I have this one, looks like they're $45 these day. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hanging-Sca...!-1:rk:14:pf:0

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    I've found the Park TM-1 shows a higher force that what actually exists above 100kgf. If I tension to a calibrated 130 kgf, that feels REALLY TIGHT even on properly lubed nipples and nipple seats.

    Since you like building wheels, I advise getting a $30 digital hanging scale and making a wooden tension meter. You might find you can go a bit tighter on your spokes.

    Otherwise, as long as you keep your tires inflated, there's no additional stress on the rim.
    Are you referring to calibrating a spoke tension meter using the hanging scale? You tube link : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgsz7l1GWoI

    I built the same tool but used 4x4's in place of the tube steel. Had it built for under $40 and was able to verify the calibration on my DT Swiss Tensiometer.

  17. #17
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    If you dont retension a mk3 with the tire on, its probably going to break.

    If you do retension a mk3 with the tire on, its probably going to break.
    WTB: Small aluminum hardtail 26 or 27.5 frame. Pm me!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by keen View Post
    Are you referring to calibrating a spoke tension meter using the hanging scale? You tube link : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgsz7l1GWoI

    I built the same tool but used 4x4's in place of the tube steel. Had it built for under $40 and was able to verify the calibration on my DT Swiss Tensiometer.
    Yes, I used 2x4s and some hooks and bolts from Home Depot. It just sits in the closet.

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    I would like to just let everybody know what I found. So I got home from work and as I said earlier today I was planning on backing the tension back off to where it was originally after mounting the tires. I took a tension reading with around 15 pounds in the tire and then removed the core and dumped all the air. The tension never changed. It is right where it needs to be with empty tires or with air in the tires so I think I will just leave it alone.

    Itís weird. I get them dialed in and then mount tires and air them up and they lose significant tension. I then raise the tension with pressurized tires on the rims back to where it needs to be. Then through discussions on this thread I decide that was the wrong thing to do so I go to back them down a little and I find that I donít need to. The only thing I can think is what somebody else said earlier that I didnít stress relieve the spokes good enough and now they have been stress relieved with the tires being mounted. I did stress relieve the spokes by the way but maybe I didnít spend enough time doing that.

  20. #20
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    If you build wheels, you should read this blog https://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/ written by the guys that used to own Wheelsmith.

  21. #21
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    I have developed cracks at my spoke holes on my Flow MK3's from tensioning with a tire. Not sure if it happened when I had the tire off or over time. The replacement will have eyelets.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgaddis1 View Post
    The 125kgf tension recommendation takes into account the tension drop, it's a well known phenomenon. You can add more tension back once you have a tire mounted and inflated, but you may end up with cracks at the spoke holes eventually.
    It's a max tension, not a recommended tension.

  23. #23
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    All rim manufacturers give their max tensions based on no tyre fitted.

    I find no matter the rim, once the tyre is on I aim for a tension of about 100-105kg on the drive/high side. I.e. tighten it back up if it has dropped below that.

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