Spoke length (twist lacing)- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Spoke length (twist lacing)

    Eh oh.
    Looking for advice on spoke lengths for twist lacing.
    I am looking at building a 3x twist lace wheel (maybe 2x twist lace) and need to know how much longer the spokes need to be for twist. Also, any hints / tips for lacing this way would be appreciated. (I've built many a wheel already).
    What I am not looking for is a commentary on twist lacing or reasons why not to build a wheel this way or component selection for building wheels using this method.
    Thanks in advance
    Cheers

  2. #2
    Doesntplaywellwithmorons!
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    You'll want an extra 2mm per twist. I suggest if its your first twisted wheel you go with the traditional pair of twists (which gives the snowflake look) on a 32H wheel. Lace the wheel as you normally would, then once you've done lacing all the spokes, remove the nipple from only the spoke which crosses under the other at the final cross point, and then twist it over and under that spoke again and re-attach the nipple.

  3. #3
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    what he said, though if you've built a bunch of wheels, it's probably not necessary to lace totally then unattach/reattach. not a bad method, but a bit cumbersome if you're handy w/lacing already.

  4. #4
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    Sweet.
    And yeah, I was asking a few old co-workers (used to work in shops) and they've all seemed to concur.
    Any thoughts on straight gauge vs double butted? Is double butted easier to work with? Or is it too weak to use when it's stressed in a twist like that?

  5. #5
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    no problem using double butted... and they will be easier to work with. the only snowflake wheels i've built were with wheelsmith DB14s (2.0/1.7). twisting them actually doesn't weaken the spokes.

  6. #6
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    Yeah, I wasn't sure what it would do to the spokes at the twist. I assumed it wouldn't matter, seeing as the bend where two spokes cross in a standard 3x wheel MIGHT actually be greater than the bend from twisting two spokes..?
    Just figured I'd toss the idea out and see what responses I get.
    Thanks again
    Cheers

  7. #7
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    fer sure. post up some pics when you're done.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    fer sure. post up some pics when you're done.
    Hell yeah, snowflakes are gorgeous!
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  9. #9
    Doesntplaywellwithmorons!
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    My first twisted wheels were with DT 14/15s but I've also used DT Revo spokes (both 2.0/1.5 and 1.8/1.5 versions) to do it. Pretty much any round profile spoke will work regardless of gauge. Bladed and aero spokes though... not a good idea.

  10. #10
    I am a pathetic rider...
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    Just curious, why would you build your wheels with a twist? Just for the looks/to be different? Not criticizing, I think it looks totally BA, I just can't think of a reason you would do it.
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  11. #11
    Doesntplaywellwithmorons!
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    In my experience, and over half my wheels of my own bikes are twisted (and with over a dozen bikes, that's more than a couple wheels), they hold up better and require adjustments less frequently, for a minimal weight penalty.

  12. #12
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    Took my time last night and built up some awesome twists with Wheelsmith XL's, Hope Hub and ZTR 29'er. I am very happy with the way it turned out. I used twists only because the spokes I had were just a bit too long. I am definitely going to try it again. One side has 1 twist (or is it a half twist) and the other side is a complete full twist, both sides were 2x pattern.

  13. #13
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    Hey deeight

    So let me get this straight. Only the spokes to be twisted need to be an extra 2mm long. I ask this as I am about to relace a front wheel with a new hub and just happen to have some longer spokes. Jim

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by b4 stealth
    Just curious, why would you build your wheels with a twist? Just for the looks/to be different? Not criticizing, I think it looks totally BA, I just can't think of a reason you would do it.

    I have had several wheels done this way. Supposedly it makes a stronger wheel. The problem I started having with the rear wheels I had is that the spokes started breaking one by one at the hub. It does look cool though.

  15. #15
    Doesntplaywellwithmorons!
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    The spokes on the side (you can do wheels with the twisting only on one side if you want) that you're twisting ALL need to be 2mm longer per twist. On the very first wheel I twisted, which was a rear wheel...the difference in length between 2X and 3X lacing was 8mm, so what I did was take the 3X lacing pattern on the drive side and changed it to a 2X lacing with a quadruple twist. The non-drive side is still an untwisted 3X pattern.

    Even numbers of twists have the spokes going to the same holes in the rims as if you'd simply cross laced them without the twists. As such you only need actually wrap one spoke while the other is still anchored in the rim if you so choose.

    Odd numbers of twists though result in the spokes going to the opposite holes of one another and thus require you to undo both spokes and twist them at the same time.

  16. #16
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    So, I have my wheel laced and am working on tensioning.
    I found it pretty easy to lace once I figured out people's definitions of "twist". After looking at it, I can understand why people would call it a double twist, but seeing as on spoke goes around the other only 1 full rotation, I was considering a "double twist" to be 720 degrees.
    Regardless - when I normally build wheels, I go by feel for tension. I can't do that on this wheel - any suggestions on tension? Without having access to a spoke tensionometer?
    Thanks kindly
    Cheers

    PS> will get some pictures up once I get it finished and get a tire on it.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by visser
    So, I have my wheel laced and am working on tensioning.
    I found it pretty easy to lace once I figured out people's definitions of "twist". After looking at it, I can understand why people would call it a double twist, but seeing as on spoke goes around the other only 1 full rotation, I was considering a "double twist" to be 720 degrees.
    Regardless - when I normally build wheels, I go by feel for tension. I can't do that on this wheel - any suggestions on tension? Without having access to a spoke tensionometer?
    Thanks kindly
    Cheers

    PS> will get some pictures up once I get it finished and get a tire on it.
    feel is about all you've got at this point. go for pretty tight. i've found the twists make the wheel feel tighter than it actually is.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight View Post
    The spokes on the side (you can do wheels with the twisting only on one side if you want) that you're twisting ALL need to be 2mm longer per twist. On the very first wheel I twisted, which was a rear wheel...the difference in length between 2X and 3X lacing was 8mm, so what I did was take the 3X lacing pattern on the drive side and changed it to a 2X lacing with a quadruple twist. The non-drive side is still an untwisted 3X pattern.

    Even numbers of twists have the spokes going to the same holes in the rims as if you'd simply cross laced them without the twists. As such you only need actually wrap one spoke while the other is still anchored in the rim if you so choose.

    Odd numbers of twists though result in the spokes going to the opposite holes of one another and thus require you to undo both spokes and twist them at the same time.
    So... for clarification, when you refer to an Odd number of twists, such as 1 or 3, what you really mean is a 1/2 twist or 1-1/2 twists... where as Even, like 2 or 4, is really 1 full twist or 2 full twists, correct?

  19. #19
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    Short answer: Yes.

    The advice I had been given (and followed for my build) is as follows:

    "Once you find the spoke length for a regular 3x build, add 4mm per spoke and you should be good to go for a single twist lace. Do two twists starting as close to the hub as you can, be smooth, and make sure the spokes are crossed-over before you twist. So, the spoke outside the flange goes under the spoke inside the flange, and vice versa. Twist them 3x."

    My only note to add is that when I was done, the spoke's ended up in the same holes in the rim as if I had never twisted them, but done a regular 3x build.

    And here are the photos of my build.

    Good luck, and once you start building, you'll get a good feel for it pretty quickly.

    Cheers
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Spoke length (twist lacing)-photo1.jpg  

    Spoke length (twist lacing)-photo.jpg  


  20. #20
    The Punk Hucker
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    Beautiful!
    Beware the hucking bear!

  21. #21
    wyrd bi ful rd
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    Gorgeous ...

    Just to reiterate ... You have done 3x 32h wheel, the 3rd and 4th set of lacing is when you twist the spoke around the 3rd spoke that you go under?

    Assuming you lace the 1st 2 sets of 8 spokes as heads out, the 3rd set will be heads in and then you go over and over and then under and twist around that last spoke?

    What about on a 24 spoke road bike front wheel? How much do you add for length? Or is the additional length to add dependant more on the no of cross or the twist?

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