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  1. #1
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    Project 321 (new version) vs Project 321 (old version) vs Onyx Hubs

    Has anyone has had a chance to compare in person Onyx hubs with the new magnetic version of project 321, or possibly compare the old and new versions of project 321? I'm interested in the differences in sound, weight, and rolling resistance.

    I currently own a set of project 321 hubs and a set of Onyx hubs.

    I'm 100% satisfied with Onyx except for the weight.

    Project 321 are some of the best hubs I've had, but they have significantly more drag than onyx and also make too much noise.

    I'm wondering if the new Project 321 might be the perfect middle ground for me. Lighter than onyx, but quieter and faster than the old version of project 321 while not having noticeably more drag than onyx.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    I have a new set of the P321 hubs built up to some NOBL TR33 rims that we are using as shop demo wheels. I ordered the loud and quiet pawls in the 216 POE to make things interesting. I haven't actually ridden the new P321 hubs yet, but they seem to spin very well in the stand. The quiet pawls have much mess drag than the loud pawls.

    I'll let you know once I throw them on my bike to give them a go. Seems promising though.

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  3. #3
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    Are the hub shells different or just the driver? In other words can someone swap in a new drive into older hubs. If that's possible I see a lot of sales in their future.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Organ View Post
    Are the hub shells different or just the driver? In other words can someone swap in a new drive into older hubs. If that's possible I see a lot of sales in their future.
    Retrofit can be done by P321. Something like $225.

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  5. #5
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    The new Project321 hubs are using magnets for pawl engagement. They have different versions with different engagements as well as loud and quiet. The quiet is so quiet. Never seen something so quiet. They are pricey though. 400-520+ for rear hub and 200-230+ for front hub.

  6. #6
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    Just saw the add on the mtbr main page.

    Curious though how the new quiet less drag p321 matches up to an I9 or CK in terms of weight and drag?

    216 POE is just overkill but is cool nonetheless.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toot3344556 View Post
    Just saw the add on the mtbr main page.

    Curious though how the new quiet less drag p321 matches up to an I9 or CK in terms of weight and drag?

    216 POE is just overkill but is cool nonetheless.
    Way less drag than both. Lighter than King, a little heavier than i9.

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by dustyduke22 View Post
    Way less drag than both. Lighter than King, a little heavier than i9.

    Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk
    Thanks!

    So what's better decreased drag or the decreased weight ?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toot3344556 View Post
    Thanks!

    So what's better decreased drag or the decreased weight ?
    Decreased drag. The most important area to shed weight on a wheel is the components furthest away from the axle. The rotational inertia at the axle is insignificant, especially when compared to the rim and tires.

  10. #10
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    I've been waiting to try/buy these SS hubs. I would prefer the silent since all my other hubs are load and the silent just seem really cool. Looking forward to your review.
    Quote Originally Posted by dustyduke22 View Post
    I have a new set of the P321 hubs built up to some NOBL TR33 rims that we are using as shop demo wheels. I ordered the loud and quiet pawls in the 216 POE to make things interesting. I haven't actually ridden the new P321 hubs yet, but they seem to spin very well in the stand. The quiet pawls have much mess drag than the loud pawls.

    I'll let you know once I throw them on my bike to give them a go. Seems promising though.

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dustyduke22 View Post
    I have a new set of the P321 hubs built up to some NOBL TR33 rims that we are using as shop demo wheels. I ordered the loud and quiet pawls in the 216 POE to make things interesting. I haven't actually ridden the new P321 hubs yet, but they seem to spin very well in the stand. The quiet pawls have much mess drag than the loud pawls.

    I'll let you know once I throw them on my bike to give them a go. Seems promising though.
    Thanks! I spend most of my time on rigid singlespeeds, and while I can't say how many watts Onyx saves, they definitely roll faster than any other hubs I've used. My next wheels will be for a 29+ though, so maybe the drag won't be quite as noticeable as it is with a lighter wheelset.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bogeydog View Post
    Retrofit can be done by P321. Something like $225.

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    i was told it's 240 plus shipping your hubs to them. 240 cover parts, labor and return shipping. just make sure you have the G2 hubs which has the black freewheel body

  13. #13
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    Do you have any oil leakage coming from the P321 hub? After one day, I have oil dripping down the spokes even after replacing with a new seal.

    Quote Originally Posted by dustyduke22 View Post
    I have a new set of the P321 hubs built up to some NOBL TR33 rims that we are using as shop demo wheels. I ordered the loud and quiet pawls in the 216 POE to make things interesting. I haven't actually ridden the new P321 hubs yet, but they seem to spin very well in the stand. The quiet pawls have much mess drag than the loud pawls.

    I'll let you know once I throw them on my bike to give them a go. Seems promising though.

    Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk

  14. #14
    Chris Bling
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottyman View Post
    Do you have any oil leakage coming from the P321 hub? After one day, I have oil dripping down the spokes even after replacing with a new seal.
    They are still sitting here. Sorry man, been pretty slammed with other wheels to swap them into the mix yet.
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  15. #15
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    I decided to give the new hubs a try on the wheels for the bike I'm building. I'll try to post back after I've had a chance to compare onyx and the new project 321.

  16. #16
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    I too think the new P321 drive could be the best of both worlds in terms of weight and drag, also engagement. The only thing that's holding me back from the Onyx is the weight. Any updates from anyone? This is a cool discussion.

  17. #17
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    I ordered the wheels for my new bike, but it's a custom frame that's being built and will be a couple more months before I can compare.

    Here's what I'll have for comparison :

    New bike:
    Titanium Rigid singlespeed 29+
    Project 321 hubs with 216 point option, quiet option, and ceramic bearing upgrade. 12x157 rear and 15x110 front

    Bike 2:
    Carbon rigid singlespeed 29
    Onyx hubs with around 1300 miles.

    Bike 3:
    Steel rigid singlespeed 29 (wife's bike)
    Old style project 321 hubs which are somewhat similar to i9

    Bike 4:
    Carbon FS 29 (wife's bike)
    Roval traverse sl fattie wheels which have dt internals and 54t option

  18. #18
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    I've put about 400 miles on my new style P321 hubs. I got the loud version. I have been on I9 Hubs for 5 years. The I9 has been flawless for the most part. The 321 rolls better and has a different sound, not louder but different. Just this morning I woke up and my wheel is not spinning. I am trying to figure out what it is but it seems to be the rear hub bearings themselves. The freehub spins fine. I have reached out to P321 to see what they suggest.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brazilianbreeze View Post
    I've put about 400 miles on my new style P321 hubs. I got the loud version. I have been on I9 Hubs for 5 years. The I9 has been flawless for the most part. The 321 rolls better and has a different sound, not louder but different. Just this morning I woke up and my wheel is not spinning. I am trying to figure out what it is but it seems to be the rear hub bearings themselves. The freehub spins fine. I have reached out to P321 to see what they suggest.
    hmm, keep us posted, I just ordered one of these.
    Rigid SS 29er
    SS 29+
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    SS cyclocross
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  20. #20
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    We have tested all of the above in-house for the past eight months. The old driver that P321 used was simply am I9 insert. Same set up completely. The new one has a much nicer fit, the quiet and loud option is brilliant, and they have not given us any reason to worry one bit. Bearing life with the new EZO bearings is second to none. We have worked with Jake to remove the oil, to be honest, and utilize a thinner grease that acts similar to the oil but allows us to alleviate any potential oil leaks that the seal could have. Been two months on the grease in physical testing and no issues to speak of. We ran the rear hub at 250 rpm on our lathe for three weeks straight freewheeling and had great results with the grease we chose.
    As for the Onyx hub, I have had huge admiration to that product, love everything they do and think it has it's place in the market. Weight is a major drawback to the added performance. However being on one for almost two years up until my new P321 hubs, I will admit you feel the spongy windup in the sprag, and I have felt no loss of engagement that is noticeable on tech climbs, etc. 1.8 degree throw on the P321 is almost impossible to feel on the bike. It has the same feel as the Onyx when rinding.
    This is my assessment of the two, and if I had to choose, the P321 with the quiet saves you some weight, money and has equal performance.

  21. #21
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    i just had my g2 upgraded to this new driver
    can't wait to ty it

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeAreOne_Composites View Post
    We have tested all of the above in-house for the past eight months. The old driver that P321 used was simply am I9 insert. Same set up completely. The new one has a much nicer fit, the quiet and loud option is brilliant, and they have not given us any reason to worry one bit. Bearing life with the new EZO bearings is second to none. We have worked with Jake to remove the oil, to be honest, and utilize a thinner grease that acts similar to the oil but allows us to alleviate any potential oil leaks that the seal could have. Been two months on the grease in physical testing and no issues to speak of. We ran the rear hub at 250 rpm on our lathe for three weeks straight freewheeling and had great results with the grease we chose.
    As for the Onyx hub, I have had huge admiration to that product, love everything they do and think it has it's place in the market. Weight is a major drawback to the added performance. However being on one for almost two years up until my new P321 hubs, I will admit you feel the spongy windup in the sprag, and I have felt no loss of engagement that is noticeable on tech climbs, etc. 1.8 degree throw on the P321 is almost impossible to feel on the bike. It has the same feel as the Onyx when rinding.
    This is my assessment of the two, and if I had to choose, the P321 with the quiet saves you some weight, money and has equal performance.
    Very nice write up! Can you comment more on the freehub drag between P321 and Onyx? Thank you

  23. #23
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    I put about 40 miles this weekend on a new P321 hub, with the silent option, 216POE. In the recent past, I've ridden mostly a DT370 and a Hope Pro II.

    Needless to say, the P321 is vastly superior to these two (not the same price range though). The crazy amount of POE is very much appreciated when climbing tech stuff (I'm an ex-trial competitor, so I do enjoy real tech climbing). But most importantly, very little drag out of the box. I may play around with oil levels and viscosity (maybe), but it really felt like the bike was conserving more speed in flat-ish sections already.

    And the silent hub is sooo good. I just love smashing over rocks, being able to really hear the bike to get as smooth as possible. Now I need to make the chain-guide as silent as I can, so only the noise of the tires will be left !
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by onlybirdman View Post
    Very nice write up! Can you comment more on the freehub drag between P321 and Onyx? Thank you
    The drag is virtually the same. You would have to crunch a load of data, and I am sure that the Onyx would come out in front. But that would only be true if you rode a consistent grade, under the same watts, and other optimal situations where no braking, bike handling skills on the decent....and on and on.... came into play.
    If you could tell the difference, I would be very amazed.
    Both are great options for a high-end hub, and you will be happy either way you go. I would base my decision on weight and how easy they were to service if I needed to make repairs. s

  25. #25
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    Thanks for the reviews.

    I ordered 321 hubs on NOBL wheels like 2 months ago and my dealer just got them in. 321 was the hold up but it wasn't that big of a deal.

    Between the great reviews of the 321s here, the mtbr review of NOBL that just came up, and the great deal that username: Rom3n (met here on this forum) gave me, I know I made the correct decision.

  26. #26
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    Still patiently waiting on my new wheels with P321 hubs. They are coming with a custom built frame that's currently scheduled for late August. I still feel I made the right decision, and am excited to do back to back comparisons with Onyx

  27. #27
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    I have two sets of these hubs - both 2017 G2 models with ISO rotors and set up loud. One is on my CX/gravel bike, the other on a FS trail bike. I can echo the positive statements above, and have one new note: After a few rides, both rear wheels' bearing preload loosened a little bit, requiring me to loosen the tiny set screw, then hand-tighten the preload slightly. This is as expected for most hubs in my experience, but is worth noting so that you new 321 owners will remember to check this.

    Great hubs in every way, comparing well with any other high end hub I have used.

  28. #28
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    I made a quick video on P321 vs I9
    https://youtu.be/nv8t3ldHTkc

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    I ordered 321 hubs on NOBL wheels like 2 months ago and my dealer just got them in. 321 was the hold up but it wasn't that big of a deal.
    2 month wait!!! Man, I'm so spoiled. If I don't get my purchase within two days I start to fret!

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by brewyet View Post
    I made a quick video on P321 vs I9
    https://youtu.be/nv8t3ldHTkc
    Nice video! Can you comment on the drag between the P321 Quiet and I9 Torch?

  31. #31
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    So it the oil leaking a common issue or not? Seems crazy that they wouldn't have picked that up during product testing. Are people giving up on the oil and running with grease instead? Does it make them less quiet?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by onlybirdman View Post
    Nice video! Can you comment on the drag between the P321 Quiet and I9 Torch?
    Its a little bit less drag, but I'm not sure I'm the best candidate to tell the difference. To me its not a huge difference. I was without these wheels for 3 weeks so not the best A-B tests.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jminus View Post
    So it the oil leaking a common issue or not? Seems crazy that they wouldn't have picked that up during product testing. Are people giving up on the oil and running with grease instead? Does it make them less quiet?
    There is still some oil inside the hub, but if you pack it full most of it will come out. There is still a nice layer of oil on all the surfaces inside the hub enough to prevent wear, but most of the extra oil comes out. The first ride or 2 will be dead quite. Then the sound will come back and you'll notice a pool of oil by your bike in the morning.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by brewyet View Post
    There is still some oil inside the hub, but if you pack it full most of it will come out. There is still a nice layer of oil on all the surfaces inside the hub enough to prevent wear, but most of the extra oil comes out. The first ride or 2 will be dead quite. Then the sound will come back and you'll notice a pool of oil by your bike in the morning.
    That is disappointing. Have you talked to Project321 about this? I'm wondering if they consider this normal operation or if there is some sort of manufacturing tolerance issue.

    I was planning on this hub for my next build but I'm hesitant now. Was hoping for Onyx level engagement and close to quiet without the weight penalty.

  35. #35
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    I'm about to build a rear wheel with the new P321 hub. I service my own equipment so user friendly stuff is a must. I inspected the hub and the quality is top notch. What I'm assuming is that the seal is just tight enough to keep out the muck but not too tight to reduce drag. I own Hadleys and I9s and if you put too much oil in them they will seep out also. I check my hubs every 3 months or so because of my OCD☺. You really don't need that much oil in any hubs. Regular maintenance is key if you want things to last.

  36. #36
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    321 updated the seals and bearings about 3 months ago. This should correct the leaking issues. Mine don't leak at all.

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    Good to know. Might hit them up to see if I have the updated seal. They are uasually quick to respond.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    321 updated the seals and bearings about 3 months ago. This should correct the leaking issues. Mine don't leak at all.

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    Good to know, I might try adding some more oil then.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by brewyet View Post
    I made a quick video on P321 vs I9
    https://youtu.be/nv8t3ldHTkc
    Brewyet - please contact us regarding your rear hub. Leaking oil is not normal and we are happy to fix it. Its probably a damaged or faulty seal. 877-584-7321 - ask for Jake
    Jake
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    877-584-7321
    http://www.project321.com/

  40. #40
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    Hi all!
    A lot of talk about his leaking seal. I apologize for not being quicker to respond.

    Let me clarify and explain a few things.
    This is the same seal we have used for years when we used the I9 torch driver. Leaking has never been an issue for us so we are certain the seal design is fine.

    We have had a few reports of leaking hubs (maybe 3 or 4 only) and in all cases we where able to track down the culprit. In most cases its a damaged or faulty seal.

    Another cause of leakage is when a hub comes loose. We use an Axial contact seal with only .010-.015" interference (or sometimes called crush). This means that if the hub comes loose and slides laterally the seal can pull away from the hub, breaking the seal and allowing oil to flow past. Hubs can come loose from bearing wear or can be mis-adjusted from the get go or during maintenance.
    This doesn't happen often but we have heard of it happening in the field and seen it in our testing. Even after re-adjustment of the hub this can appear to continue leaking because some oil gets trapped between the outside of the seal and the freehub body lip. So this can look like its an ongoing leak when in fact it was a short term leak that left residual oil in this small cavity that continues to leak slowly. In this case cleaning and re-lubing the hub is the fix.

    Recently we have moved to a new super light grease that was just released by DumondTech. This grease is great because it flows into the pawl/drive ring area when the hub is spinning and centripetal forces are at work. But, it holds its shape better than oil so in the even if the hub does come loose or the seal is compromised it doesn't gush through like oil would. Its also makes assembly and servicing a lot easier. We wanted to use grease from the start but couldn't find the right grease. Its funny because we where mixing up our own concoctions in house and doing all kinds of testing when DumondeTech told us they just released this grease and it happened to be perfect.

    Please feel free to call us if you have any questions regarding this topic.

    Thanks!!!
    Jake
    Project321
    877-584-7321
    http://www.project321.com/

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by pumpkinbiter View Post
    Hi all!
    A lot of talk about his leaking seal. I apologize for not being quicker to respond.

    Let me clarify and explain a few things.
    This is the same seal we have used for years when we used the I9 torch driver. Leaking has never been an issue for us so we are certain the seal design is fine.

    We have had a few reports of leaking hubs (maybe 3 or 4 only) and in all cases we where able to track down the culprit. In most cases its a damaged or faulty seal.

    Another cause of leakage is when a hub comes loose. We use an Axial contact seal with only .010-.015" interference (or sometimes called crush). This means that if the hub comes loose and slides laterally the seal can pull away from the hub, breaking the seal and allowing oil to flow past. Hubs can come loose from bearing wear or can be mis-adjusted from the get go or during maintenance.
    This doesn't happen often but we have heard of it happening in the field and seen it in our testing. Even after re-adjustment of the hub this can appear to continue leaking because some oil gets trapped between the outside of the seal and the freehub body lip. So this can look like its an ongoing leak when in fact it was a short term leak that left residual oil in this small cavity that continues to leak slowly. In this case cleaning and re-lubing the hub is the fix.

    Recently we have moved to a new super light grease that was just released by DumondTech. This grease is great because it flows into the pawl/drive ring area when the hub is spinning and centripetal forces are at work. But, it holds its shape better than oil so in the even if the hub does come loose or the seal is compromised it doesn't gush through like oil would. Its also makes assembly and servicing a lot easier. We wanted to use grease from the start but couldn't find the right grease. Its funny because we where mixing up our own concoctions in house and doing all kinds of testing when DumondeTech told us they just released this grease and it happened to be perfect.

    Please feel free to call us if you have any questions regarding this topic.

    Thanks!!!
    Thanks for the info. The leaking hub was with my old Torch internals. I haven't tried to pack the new P321 internals. I'll being calling later and I hope to test this out.

  42. #42
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    Who's attempted to put a set of the P321 magnetic pawns into an I9 freehub body? Could someone measure the length, diameter (pivot area), and height of the P321 pawls?
    Thanks!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by carbine_275 View Post
    Who's attempted to put a set of the P321 magnetic pawns into an I9 freehub body? Could someone measure the length, diameter (pivot area), and height of the P321 pawls?
    Thanks!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    I want to know about this too and even contacted 321. They said no go, but I think it was more for liability reasons.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by carbine_275 View Post
    Who's attempted to put a set of the P321 magnetic pawns into an I9 freehub body? Could someone measure the length, diameter (pivot area), and height of the P321 pawls?
    Thanks!

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

    This definitely will NOT work. Our new pawls and drive ring have completely different geometry. Our drive ring has more teeth and the pawl pivot location is different.

    It might work if you change out the drive ring, driver body, and pawls but we haven't tested that so we cant offer our 3 year driver warranty for that application.

    We do appreciate that people are looking for a way to use our new driver in creative ways though! Thanks all!
    Jake
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    877-584-7321
    http://www.project321.com/

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by pumpkinbiter View Post
    This definitely will NOT work. Our new pawls and drive ring have completely different geometry. Our drive ring has more teeth and the pawl pivot location is different.

    It might work if you change out the drive ring, driver body, and pawls but we haven't tested that so we cant offer our 3 year driver warranty for that application.

    We do appreciate that people are looking for a way to use our new driver in creative ways though! Thanks all!
    I suppose it comes down to what is meant, in exact terms, regarding the G2 hubs and the references to Industry Nine. Did you purchase the ring drive, pawls, springs from them, and design a new hub shell and driver body around them? Otherwise, I don't see the reason to reference Industry Nine at all, unless this was a license deal for something related to their design. This should be a fairly simple question to answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carbine_275 View Post
    I suppose it comes down to what is meant, in exact terms, regarding the G2 hubs and the references to Industry Nine. Did you purchase the ring drive, pawls, springs from them, and design a new hub shell and driver body around them? Otherwise, I don't see the reason to reference Industry Nine at all, unless this was a license deal for something related to their design. This should be a fairly simple question to answer.
    Carbine, Im sorry Im a little confused by your questions. We no longer reference I9 in regards to our hubs. Are you looking at old posts or info?

    Im not sure how this is related to your original post about using our pawls in and I9 free hub body? My apologies if Im missing something here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pumpkinbiter View Post
    ...Recently we have moved to a new super light grease that was just released by DumondTech...
    Hi Jake,

    it is only a matter of time that I'll be a proud P321 hubs owner as well.
    Please could you tell me which grease it is / how this type of Dumonde Tech grease is called exactly.
    By the way the following is still stated on your website (FAQ):

    "Never use grease in our freehub!* We recommend using only Dumonde Tech Freehub Oil. Grease inside of the freehub can lead to issues such as stuck pawls and increased drag. *Use of grease in our freehub will void warranty."

    Thank you!

  48. #48
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    Is the new Dumonde product the PRO X Liquid Grease? I have 2 sets of the new hubs and would like to know what's recommended for lubrication. Thx

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    How the heck can I purchase an XD driver for the new G2 hubs? I had a set of NOX wheels built up back in April with the new quiet hubs with a Shimano driver but I want to go to Eagle and have had zero luck getting a response from 321 via email fro their website.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hookem34 View Post
    How the heck can I purchase an XD driver for the new G2 hubs? I had a set of NOX wheels built up back in April with the new quiet hubs with a Shimano driver but I want to go to Eagle and have had zero luck getting a response from 321 via email fro their website.
    i would just call. i called today and Stephanie always answer the phone
    inquired about bearing replacement and she never disappoints. she knows her stuff

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    Jake, It's not very helpful when you mention a new/better lube and then don't tell anyone where to get it, nor what it is called. Do we have to call you for this information?

    How does the new grease perform at cold temperatures?

  52. #52
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    Just did my first ride on the new hub. Performed flawlessly. Quiet, great engagement, light weight, love it so far.

    Project 321 (new version) vs Project 321 (old version) vs Onyx Hubs-img_5972.jpg
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    Found this on Fanatik Bike's website while looking at Project 321 hubs.

    https://www.fanatikbike.com/products...hub-grease-1oz

    If you read the overview of the product it states "exclusively used by I9 and Project 321"
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevinboyer View Post
    Found this on Fanatik Bike's website while looking at Project 321 hubs.

    https://www.fanatikbike.com/products...hub-grease-1oz

    If you read the overview of the product it states "exclusively used by I9 and Project 321"
    That is Dumonde's standard, light weight, freehub grease. It is not new. Jake of Project 321 said that the stuff he is recommending was "super light" and "just released." I don't see anything just released or super light on the Dumonde website, nor their blog, nor their Facebook site.

    Dumonde has two different "standard" greases a low viscosity and a thicker "MR" (micro resistand polymer?), as well as low VOC (volatile organic compound), Pro X versions of same. If one scrolls over the pictures of these greases on the Dumonde website, there is a date in 2014 that pops up--nothing newer.

    And FYI, Dumonde recommends that people wanting a viscosity variant of their greases, to just thin it with the respective Liquid Grease.

    I would guess that Project 321 was using the Liquid Grease and has since switched to the Freehub Grease. If they're using something "just released," it's not publicly available.

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    Thanks for the clarification. Good to know. Wish Jake would come on here and clear all this up. I'd like to know before I make my decision.

  56. #56
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    I've finally had a chance to ride the new hubs, and have roughly 60 miles on them. Overall, extremely happy with the hubs. Quiet, fast engagement, light, and roll fast. I went with 157mm rear, 110mm front, ceramic upgrade, 216pt quiet.


    Quick summary

    Engagement: The new p321 has just a tiny bit of movement. Closer to onyx than anything else I've ever ridden, and noticeably faster than previous gen of p321. The difference between this hub and onyx is negligible, and engagement is something I'm normally very critical of. I noticed my new chain stretching on my singlespeed more than I did lag in hub engagement (when a chain is loose on a singlespeed, there's a little bit of delay when you pedal as the chain slack is taken up).

    Noise: New P321 is very quiet. Much quieter than old P321 or I9, and quieter than dt swiss hubs on my other bikes. The hub isn't silent like onyx, but it's quieter than almost any other hub I've owned, and definitely quieter than other high engagement options.

    Drag / Rolling Speed: In a stand, the rear wheel spins noticeably longer than my old p321 and DT hubs. Not able to do a fair comparison side by side with onyx due to one bike having 40mm internal rims with 3" tires and the other having 27mm internal rims with 2.35" tires. As far as drag, I think this would be a great option for racing.

    Weight: This is the primary reason I went with P321 over Onyx for this build. The hub is significantly lighter than Onyx, and allowed me to build a sub 20 pound 29+ bike

    I've had two minor issues:
    1: Hub was silent at first, but now makes a slight buzz noise. Still quieter than anything I've owned except Onyx
    2: Front hub bearings were wrong size. I went with the ceramic upgrade, and according to P321 they had a small batch of ceramic bearings with the wrong ID slip through production. They are sending replacements at no cost. They were extremely quick to resolve the issue. I see this as much as a positive as a negative. All companies make mistakes, but I've dealt with few who would resolve something this quickly.

    Project 321 (new version) vs Project 321 (old version) vs Onyx Hubs-kyle-2.jpg

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by coke View Post
    I've finally had a chance to ride the new hubs, and have roughly 60 miles on them. Overall, extremely happy with the hubs. Quiet, fast engagement, light, and roll fast. I went with 157mm rear, 110mm front, ceramic upgrade, 216pt quiet.


    Quick summary

    Engagement: The new p321 has just a tiny bit of movement. Closer to onyx than anything else I've ever ridden, and noticeably faster than previous gen of p321. The difference between this hub and onyx is negligible, and engagement is something I'm normally very critical of. I noticed my new chain stretching on my singlespeed more than I did lag in hub engagement (when a chain is loose on a singlespeed, there's a little bit of delay when you pedal as the chain slack is taken up).

    Noise: New P321 is very quiet. Much quieter than old P321 or I9, and quieter than dt swiss hubs on my other bikes. The hub isn't silent like onyx, but it's quieter than almost any other hub I've owned, and definitely quieter than other high engagement options.

    Drag / Rolling Speed: In a stand, the rear wheel spins noticeably longer than my old p321 and DT hubs. Not able to do a fair comparison side by side with onyx due to one bike having 40mm internal rims with 3" tires and the other having 27mm internal rims with 2.35" tires. As far as drag, I think this would be a great option for racing.

    Weight: This is the primary reason I went with P321 over Onyx for this build. The hub is significantly lighter than Onyx, and allowed me to build a sub 20 pound 29+ bike

    I've had two minor issues:
    1: Hub was silent at first, but now makes a slight buzz noise. Still quieter than anything I've owned except Onyx
    2: Front hub bearings were wrong size. I went with the ceramic upgrade, and according to P321 they had a small batch of ceramic bearings with the wrong ID slip through production. They are sending replacements at no cost. They were extremely quick to resolve the issue. I see this as much as a positive as a negative. All companies make mistakes, but I've dealt with few who would resolve something this quickly.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Thanks for that review coke. I am still torn between the 321's, and the Onyx. I've used all the other "high end" hubs on all my previous builds, but wanted to try this "silent" option this go around. The weight of the Onyx might be the deciding factor, even though they now offer an aluminum version driver. Decisions, decisions.
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevinboyer View Post
    Thanks for that review coke. I am still torn between the 321's, and the Onyx. I've used all the other "high end" hubs on all my previous builds, but wanted to try this "silent" option this go around. The weight of the Onyx might be the deciding factor, even though they now offer an aluminum version driver. Decisions, decisions.
    I don't think you can go wrong either way. If onyx and p321 were the same weight, I'd choose onyx. Low weight was a high priority for my latest wheelset though, so I went with P321. In general, if racing and chasing PRs and KOMs is something you value, then I'd probably go with the lighter p321 hub. If you just trail ride and won't mind the extra weight, then the silence, smoothness, and engagement of Onyx are as good as it gets.

    Night riding season is coming up. One of my favorite things about quiet hubs is solo night rides. There's nothing like riding through the woods in the dark on a completely silent bike.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by coke View Post
    I don't think you can go wrong either way. If onyx and p321 were the same weight, I'd choose onyx. Low weight was a high priority for my latest wheelset though, so I went with P321. In general, if racing and chasing PRs and KOMs is something you value, then I'd probably go with the lighter p321 hub. If you just trail ride and won't mind the extra weight, then the silence, smoothness, and engagement of Onyx are as good as it gets.

    Night riding season is coming up. One of my favorite things about quiet hubs is solo night rides. There's nothing like riding through the woods in the dark on a completely silent bike.

    Most of my riding is trail and AM. I know either of these hubs would work well with that style. Going with the Onyx with the aluminum driver could sway me that way.
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  60. #60
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    Just saw this:
    http://m.vitalmtb.com/features/Light...cing-Hubs,2021

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    Quote Originally Posted by compengr View Post
    Just saw this:
    http://m.vitalmtb.com/features/Light...cing-Hubs,2021

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
    Page does not exist


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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow4eva View Post
    Page does not exist


    Sent from my iPhone via Tapatalk
    Let's try the non-mobile version:

    http://www.vitalmtb.com/features/Lig...cing-Hubs,2021


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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by compengr View Post
    Let's try the non-mobile version:

    http://www.vitalmtb.com/features/Lig...cing-Hubs,2021


    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
    Awesome, love the news, thanks for sharing! Temoted to get these for my bike when I decide to upgrade from the stock wheelset.
    Being a lefty fork user, it's hard to find manufacturers that make hubs for lefty and fulfil my requirement for higher engagement at the same time.


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    How do the new Project 321 hubs with 216 POE compare to the Onyx hubs?

    Quote Originally Posted by dustyduke22 View Post
    I have a new set of the P321 hubs built up to some NOBL TR33 rims that we are using as shop demo wheels. I ordered the loud and quiet pawls in the 216 POE to make things interesting. I haven't actually ridden the new P321 hubs yet, but they seem to spin very well in the stand. The quiet pawls have much mess drag than the loud pawls.

    I'll let you know once I throw them on my bike to give them a go. Seems promising though.

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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by xprmntl View Post
    That is Dumonde's standard, light weight, freehub grease. It is not new. Jake of Project 321 said that the stuff he is recommending was "super light" and "just released." I don't see anything just released or super light on the Dumonde website, nor their blog, nor their Facebook site.

    Dumonde has two different "standard" greases a low viscosity and a thicker "MR" (micro resistand polymer?), as well as low VOC (volatile organic compound), Pro X versions of same. If one scrolls over the pictures of these greases on the Dumonde website, there is a date in 2014 that pops up--nothing newer.

    And FYI, Dumonde recommends that people wanting a viscosity variant of their greases, to just thin it with the respective Liquid Grease.

    I would guess that Project 321 was using the Liquid Grease and has since switched to the Freehub Grease. If they're using something "just released," it's not publicly available.
    "Project 321 recommends only Dumonde Tech Pro X Freehub Grease for lubrication of the pawls and drive ring." From this article: https://nsmb.com/articles/project-321-hub-teardown/

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    Why not a SS specific free hub?
    Iím going to buy P321ís when I build a geared bike but if I didnít already have single speed hubs Iíd really like to try P321ís one of my single speeds.
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  68. #68
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    My once practically silent 321 hubs now make quite the clicking noise not too dissimilar from an I-9 Hub. Is there some lube or something I should be adding to get rid of that? Thank you.

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  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    My once practically silent 321 hubs now make quite the clicking noise not too dissimilar from an I-9 Hub. Is there some lube or something I should be adding to get rid of that? Thank you.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
    Do you have the newest version of the P321's ?
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    Yes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Is there some lube or something I should be adding to get rid of that? Thank you.
    You literally need to scroll up three posts for the answer to this!

  72. #72
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    I am waiting to see what Onyx comes up with for their new lighter hubs, with Nobl TR33 I think they will be perfect for me.

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    Anyone know if you can get extra pawls from Project 321? I don't see them on their site. I'd like to have 2 sets, Loud and quiet but not seeing that option right now.

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    You can buy whatever you need or want from them. Just call and tell them what you want.

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    Cool, thanks. Phone number still the same? I see they moved from CA to Oregon, guess Iíll find out.

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    Do not know but easy to find. Safe Travels!

  77. #77
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    Can anyone tell me if and how I can convert a P321 hub with an XD driver to a Shimano driver? I had thought this would be a simple swap, but I though I read I need to order something from P321 for $200+?

    Thanks for any info on this.
    Ride more; post less...

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeAreOne_Composites View Post
    We have tested all of the above in-house for the past eight months. The old driver that P321 used was simply am I9 insert. Same set up completely. The new one has a much nicer fit, the quiet and loud option is brilliant, and they have not given us any reason to worry one bit. Bearing life with the new EZO bearings is second to none. We have worked with Jake to remove the oil, to be honest, and utilize a thinner grease that acts similar to the oil but allows us to alleviate any potential oil leaks that the seal could have. Been two months on the grease in physical testing and no issues to speak of. We ran the rear hub at 250 rpm on our lathe for three weeks straight freewheeling and had great results with the grease we chose.
    As for the Onyx hub, I have had huge admiration to that product, love everything they do and think it has it's place in the market. Weight is a major drawback to the added performance. However being on one for almost two years up until my new P321 hubs, I will admit you feel the spongy windup in the sprag, and I have felt no loss of engagement that is noticeable on tech climbs, etc. 1.8 degree throw on the P321 is almost impossible to feel on the bike. It has the same feel as the Onyx when rinding.
    This is my assessment of the two, and if I had to choose, the P321 with the quiet saves you some weight, money and has equal performance.
    What do you mean by spongy windup in the sprag?
    I googled the translation of the words but i don't understand

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    Quote Originally Posted by tirrorex View Post
    What do you mean by spongy windup in the sprag?
    I googled the translation of the words but i don't understand
    The Onyx hubs have a soft engagement. I assume it's some minor flex in the shell or sprag or something.
    It's very noticeable tthe instant you ride an Onyx. It's like you step on the pedal and where other hubs instantly go (once engaged) the Onyx has a slightly spongy feel. Like if you had the rear brake locked up and stepped on the pedal the pedal would sort of bounce a but and spring back to the starting position.
    I happen to really like the sensation and feel as if it must improve traction when accelerating wiith no less power transfer.
    I like my 321 hubs performance, but I have had 2 catastrophic failures. 1 warrantied, 1 not. The issues seem to be behind me however as I have updated components. I had a very early version.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    The Onyx hubs have a soft engagement. I assume it's some minor flex in the shell or sprag or something.
    It's very noticeable tthe instant you ride an Onyx. It's like you step on the pedal and where other hubs instantly go (once engaged) the Onyx has a slightly spongy feel. Like if you had the rear brake locked up and stepped on the pedal the pedal would sort of bounce a but and spring back to the starting position.
    I happen to really like the sensation and feel as if it must improve traction when accelerating wiith no less power transfer.
    I like my 321 hubs performance, but I have had 2 catastrophic failures. 1 warrantied, 1 not. The issues seem to be behind me however as I have updated components. I had a very early version.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    thank you for the clarification

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    The Onyx hubs have a soft engagement. I assume it's some minor flex in the shell or sprag or something.
    It's very noticeable tthe instant you ride an Onyx. It's like you step on the pedal and where other hubs instantly go (once engaged) the Onyx has a slightly spongy feel. Like if you had the rear brake locked up and stepped on the pedal the pedal would sort of bounce a but and spring back to the starting position.
    I happen to really like the sensation and feel as if it must improve traction when accelerating wiith no less power transfer.
    In my experience it wasn't "very noticeable" when I first tried Onyx hubs, the silence and the smooth instant engagement were the most obvious characteristics to me. I didn't observe a "spongy feel", when I first heard it mentioned I had to go to my bike and try the pedal against the brakes thing to see it wind up. The sprags are standing up under heavy load and the steel shells around them are acting like a spring, it is definitely a real thing, it just doesn't make itself overly obvious while riding to me. I feel like the sprag clutch is great at eliminating the harsh takeup of a traditional hub while still feeling like instant engagement, but beyond that it is a subtle difference that is beneficial without standing out.

    In very high torque, low gear situations it may be more obvious although I still don't notice it over struggling to find a good line and keep the bike moving on nasty steep climbs, and I am no lightweight. I know some people don't like it, just as some people prefer noisy hubs. And maybe I am just an insensitive bastard, it wouldn't be the first time I have heard that.

    I agree that the effects are beneficial and I like everything about the way these hubs perform, they are smooth, silent, strong and reliable.
    Last edited by Velodonata; 08-18-2018 at 05:35 PM. Reason: clarity

  82. #82
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    I agree with all said above, I recently put one on my single speed after getting one for my Hightower. It was a huge difference over the DT350-54t which I stripped and had to go back to an 18t. The Onyx engagement is as close to instant as far as the several hubs Iíve tried so far and the start up does feel soft and I donít think thatís the best way to describe it without it sounding negative. Iíve come to love it!

  83. #83
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    Is this the Onyx thread?
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    Is this the Onyx thread?
    Onyx is in the post title, so yes, it is the Onyx thread.

  85. #85
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    Dont ya just hate it when you get pie on your face? (full thread title doesn't appear on main page. Oops)
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

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