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  1. #1
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    Pissed off at my Enve M70 wheels

    These came with the bike. After i wore out the first set of tires i had to cut off both because they were so tight i couldn't break the bead and i have strong electrician hands. There was so much Gorilla tape in there i figured that was probably why, so i retaped the rim with Stan's tape. Yesterday i wound up with two flat tires. I was able to get one of the two off and had to cut the other off. Believe me, i tried like hell not to cut it cause the tire only had 4 or 5 rides on it. Trying to install my new tire had me ready to break shit cause it's so tight on the rim that it wont push out to the sides. Yes i used soap. Yes i have an air compressor. Yes i've set up tubeless before. Many many many many times.

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  2. #2
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    Did you remove the valve core?

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by wytemike21 View Post
    Did you remove the valve core?

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    Can't because i need the shrader adaptor. Anyway i came back an hour later and hit it with the air and the bastard filled right up without resoaping. Go figure. Still pisses me off that i had to cut off the old/new tire. Iwas thinking about taking it to a tire shop if i couldn't get it.

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    The only reason I asked is because I've had same issue before, some tire brands are tighter fits and less pliable...taking the valve core out was necessary to get enough air volume in fast enough...good luck!

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russhole View Post
    Can't because i need the shrader adaptor. Anyway i came back an hour later and hit it with the air and the bastard filled right up without resoaping. Go figure. Still pisses me off that i had to cut off the old/new tire. Iwas thinking about taking it to a tire shop if i couldn't get it.

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    If you remove the valve core, you don't need an adapter for your compressor and you're able to supply a lot more air without the restriction of the valve. That's the only way I've been able to install some troublesome tires.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by coke View Post
    If you remove the valve core, you don't need an adapter for your compressor and you're able to supply a lot more air without the restriction of the valve. That's the only way I've been able to install some troublesome tires.
    This. Makes me think the OP needs a lot more help.

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  7. #7
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    I just picked up a set of M70's, the tire is definitely tight on the rim. I run Maxxis tires on mine, but i think some brands would just straight up not fit (WTB are a lot tighter, for example).

    The trick to getting tires on and off of these rims is that you have to have all of the tire in the center channel when you're trying to slip the last bit on/off.

    And, as people mentioned, you might need to remove the valve core and use a blow gun to get the tires to seat the bead.

  8. #8
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    Is this because hookless rims?

    IME, tires do blow off on occasion. Not often but I've seen it happen a few times. This would make it more likely for tire mfg'ers to make the bead smaller diameter and rim mfg'ers to make their wheels a little larger diameter.

    Unlike autos, bike tires are much lighter and I'm not sure hookless is such a wonderful idea. Also, we don't use massive hydraulic presses to install and remove our tires.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russhole View Post
    These came with the bike. After i wore out the first set of tires i had to cut off both because they were so tight i couldn't break the bead and i have strong electrician hands. There was so much Gorilla tape in there i figured that was probably why, so i retaped the rim with Stan's tape. Yesterday i wound up with two flat tires. I was able to get one of the two off and had to cut the other off. Believe me, i tried like hell not to cut it cause the tire only had 4 or 5 rides on it. Trying to install my new tire had me ready to break shit cause it's so tight on the rim that it wont push out to the sides. Yes i used soap. Yes i have an air compressor. Yes i've set up tubeless before. Many many many many times.

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    What brand and version of tires were coming off and going on? Just curious.

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    Reminds me of the hour it took to pull a WTB Ranger of a WTB Asym rim last weekend. I was about to give up too till I used a flat head and pried the bead off the edge of the bead little by little until I could pull it off by hand. That was a serious pain in the ass.

  11. #11
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    Trying to get a Maxxis Aggressor DD of my M60 was a huge chore. Just about went with the cut it off option.

  12. #12
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    The original tire were E13 TRSR.
    I replaced them with WTB Breakouts.
    I am currently still trying to get the new WTB Vigillante to hold air for more than a few hours.

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
    Reminds me of the hour it took to pull a WTB Ranger of a WTB Asym rim last weekend. I was about to give up too till I used a flat head and pried the bead off the edge of the bead little by little until I could pull it off by hand. That was a serious pain in the ass.
    I don't have those patients. I worked at it for about fifteen minutes till my thumbs were about to fall off and then the blade came out.

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    Is this because hookless rims?

    IME, tires do blow off on occasion. Not often but I've seen it happen a few times. This would make it more likely for tire mfg'ers to make the bead smaller diameter and rim mfg'ers to make their wheels a little larger diameter.

    Unlike autos, bike tires are much lighter and I'm not sure hookless is such a wonderful idea. Also, we don't use massive hydraulic presses to install and remove our tires.
    Most carbon wheels are "hookless" now. It's difficult for carbon manufacturers to add a "hook" and it weakens the rim in a critical area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Porch View Post
    I

    The trick to getting tires on and off of these rims is that you have to have all of the tire in the center channel when you're trying to slip the last bit on/off.
    Good tip, I was about to say the same thing!

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porch View Post
    Most carbon wheels are "hookless" now. It's difficult for carbon manufacturers to add a "hook" and it weakens the rim in a critical area.
    Yeah... I guess it's a trade-off. I got Bonty Line XXX wheels as they do have hooks. I've had hookless before and did have one blow-off. I just saw one a few days ago too. These definitely would have been prevented if a hook had been there.

    I've noticed tires all fit differently, this lack of standardization is an issue and tightening tolerances on a part like a bike tire bead might not work out so well for affordability. OTOH, we need a standard that involves hooks, bead diameters and elasticity of the bead. These things should be standardized to allow for fairly reasonable assembly that doesn't require longer metal levers be used.

    So, not sure hookless is a great idea for bike wheels/tires and I think it encourages mfg'ers to make the fit tighter. This thread is evidence of this happening and it seems to be causing issues.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    Yeah... I guess it's a trade-off. I got Bonty Line XXX wheels as they do have hooks. I've had hookless before and did have one blow-off. I just saw one a few days ago too. These definitely would have been prevented if a hook had been there.

    I've noticed tires all fit differently, this lack of standardization is an issue and tightening tolerances on a part like a bike tire bead might not work out so well for affordability. OTOH, we need a standard that involves hooks, bead diameters and elasticity of the bead. These things should be standardized to allow for fairly reasonable assembly that doesn't require longer metal levers be used.

    So, not sure hookless is a great idea for bike wheels/tires and I think it encourages mfg'ers to make the fit tighter. This thread is evidence of this happening and it seems to be causing issues.
    I have a set of Stan's Crest rims on my commuter (aluminum with hooks) that have blown the tire off at least twice. It happens with "hooked" rims too!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porch View Post
    I have a set of Stan's Crest rims on my commuter (aluminum with hooks) that have blown the tire off at least twice. It happens with "hooked" rims too!
    No offense but that's almost always user error, once the bead seats properly in a hooked rim it's much more secure vs hookless carbon rims.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    No offense but that's almost always user error
    Same with hookless

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    Quote Originally Posted by wytemike21 View Post
    Good tip, I was about to say the same thing!

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    Actually That's a duh statement. I figured that out when i was 8 years old.

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  21. #21
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    Look at the bright side.... at least they're expensive as hell!

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    No offense but that's almost always user error, once the bead seats properly in a hooked rim it's much more secure vs hookless carbon rims.
    It's actually a Stan's problem. They use low sidewall on their rims along with a flat bead shelf with no tire retaining bump. Put a bit too much air pressure or side load on the tire and it pulls right off the rim and/or explodes.

  23. #23
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    I had a maxis aggressor dd blow off a roval fattie sl carbon after it had been on for about 15 rides while I was just watching tv. Sounded like a gunshot in my apartment scared the crap out of me. Only 28 psi. Too.

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    It's actually a Stan's problem. They use low sidewall on their rims along with a flat bead shelf with no tire retaining bump. Put a bit too much air pressure or side load on the tire and it pulls right off the rim and/or explodes.
    Interesting, thanks!

    ---

    I'm also not saying that you can't screw up mounting a tire on a hookless rim, but it's not as likely. Once the bead snaps past the bump it's on. With hooks you need to be more careful that the bead is properly engaged.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    I had a maxis aggressor dd blow off a roval fattie sl carbon after it had been on for about 15 rides while I was just watching tv. Sounded like a gunshot in my apartment scared the crap out of me. Only 28 psi. Too.

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    One of mine was like that too. We just climbed a few thousand feet in Summit county, we're on top of the mtn above treeline on a nice sunny day. Bikes are laying on their sides, after about 10-15 min of the sun heating up my front tire it blows off the rim, sounding like avalanche ordinance.

    I was running a Mavic tire, and imo the bead was not quite tight enough on the rim (Light Bicycle 38mm 27.5" rim). I couldn't trust the tire anymore and threw it out after the ride. I used a tube in it to finish the ride.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russhole View Post
    Actually That's a duh statement. I figured that out when i was 8 years old.

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    Hey, just trying to help out the guy who keeps cutting his tires off of his wheels...

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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    Interesting, thanks!

    ---

    I'm also not saying that you can't screw up mounting a tire on a hookless rim, but it's not as likely. Once the bead snaps past the bump it's on. With hooks you need to be more careful that the bead is properly engaged.
    How exactly would one "screw up" mounting a mtb tire on a rim, whether hooked or hookless?


    Feel free to answer that if you like, but the actual answer is "you don't". Problems with tubeless tires are caused by rim or tire design. For example, my Crest rims and Continental tires.

    Or maybe if you're a dumbass and try to inflate a tire well past its recommended pressures, or don't check to see if the bead is seated before riding (but even then, i suspect it would just seat itself happily during the first turn). It's really not rocket science.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porch View Post
    How exactly would one "screw up" mounting a mtb tire on a rim, whether hooked or hookless?


    Feel free to answer that if you like, but the actual answer is "you don't". Problems with tubeless tires are caused by rim or tire design. For example, my Crest rims and Continental tires.

    Or maybe if you're a dumbass and try to inflate a tire well past its recommended pressures, or don't check to see if the bead is seated before riding (but even then, i suspect it would just seat itself happily during the first turn). It's really not rocket science.
    There is the using a tire lever and damaging the bead during install either the first time or when broken open to top off your tubeless brew (if your using stuff that really works it can't go through the valve). Also the not cleaning of the rim effectively when installing a new tire dried up stans will effect positive surface contact between rim and bead. All of the about are what I would consider user error and those ones are simple 20 seconds of critical thinking examples, imagine what would happen if you thought long and hard on all the potential user errors that could happen then figure out the percentage of user errors to manufacture defects and bam..... mostly "screw ups"

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  29. #29
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    I thought the old M70 was still using UST dimensions, so would be ideal with gorilla tape, considering its thickness, when using non-UST tires.

    UST bead seats are slightly undersized, since they're designed to accept an UST tire, since it has an extra layer of butyl rubber that wraps around the bead, which adds a mm or so. WTB's TCS is also based around the UST standard.

    Stan's was designed to keep naked folding beads as tight and burp-free as possible, so they slightly oversize their bead seat. If you raise the bead seat, but don't also raise the flange, you end up with their BST. They purposely use a thin tape.

    Historically, tires were designed to take into account the thick rim strip taking up space between the tire bead and rim's bead seat, when installed with a tube.

    It's a jungle out there as far as standards go. Can only trust matched systems, like Bonty TLR tires with TLR rims and rimstrips. Even then, some don't take tolerances very seriously. Tires are notorious for not coming out with uniform dimensions.

    I'll trust the OP here. He did the logical move of switching to a thinner rim tape to address tight tire fit. Should've predicted this when you fit the tires on and had trouble seating it. On the bright side, you got an extremely lower chance of burps with the tight tires.

    I wouldn't blame the Enves. I know they ditched UST certification on their newer rims and use a thinner tape (or "patent-pending rim strip). Remember that you can stretch tires out a bit with a tube, perhaps adding a thin tubeless strip over your tubeless tape if you want it a bit looser. Enves have that little hump to prevent burps, after all. I'd try to be a bit more creative before cutting tires off, such as trying c-clamps.
    We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking.

  30. #30
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    Odd that the WTB Asym had a tight fit with anything. Should be undersized (UST spec). What tape did you use? My last bike came with i29s and a thick nylon rim strip with Maxxis TR EXO tires. They were really tight with the rim strip, but I just used stan's tape for the conversion and ditched the strip. Without the thickness of the strip, the Maxxis tires fit so loose that I could seat the tire with under 20 psi. No, it's not a fat bike tire on 29ID rims... xD Downside: it burps with the slightest oblique force, such as crossing a rut diagonally.

    A tire blowing off a Stan's rim just has a f'd up tire bead. It is a result of a tire with a bead that's been stretched too much. Could've been from users being derpy with tire levers, using thick tape, too much pressure, or some other prior event that stretched the bead (prior blow-off). The kev bead isn't elastic--a bead ideally shouldn't be elastic, instead it should be a tailor fit. Stretching is permanent.
    We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porch View Post
    How exactly would one "screw up" mounting a mtb tire on a rim, whether hooked or hookless?


    Feel free to answer that if you like, but the actual answer is "you don't". Problems with tubeless tires are caused by rim or tire design. For example, my Crest rims and Continental tires.

    Or maybe if you're a dumbass and try to inflate a tire well past its recommended pressures, or don't check to see if the bead is seated before riding (but even then, i suspect it would just seat itself happily during the first turn). It's really not rocket science.
    You give humans too much credit. hitech's post was good, there are actually some potential issues. I've seen people install a tire without the bead fully engaged in a hooked rim. If lucky it'll seat when riding, if not lucky it can blow off.

    With hookless there may be less chance for error but I just don't see tire beads and bike rims being made to tolerances tight enough or standardized enough to prevent issues with the fit being too tight or too loose.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    You give humans too much credit. hitech's post was good, there are actually some potential issues. I've seen people install a tire without the bead fully engaged in a hooked rim. If lucky it'll seat when riding, if not lucky it can blow off.

    With hookless there may be less chance for error but I just don't see tire beads and bike rims being made to tolerances tight enough or standardized enough to prevent issues with the fit being too tight or too loose.
    Okay, okay, well if we're going that route then it's also possible that someone could sit on the handlebars and try to steer the seat... Never underestimate the limits of human stupidity, as they say!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Porch View Post
    Never underestimate the limits of human stupidity, as they say!
    I agree!

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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porch View Post
    Okay, okay, well if we're going that route then it's also possible that someone could sit on the handlebars and try to steer the seat... Never underestimate the limits of human stupidity, as they say!
    If this is debate class, that's reductio ad absurdium or whatever. No points for you!

  35. #35
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    Hate to say it, but the getting tires off is probably a technique thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    I know they ditched UST certification on their newer rims and use a thinner tape (or "patent-pending rim strip).
    They didn't change anything about their rims-- just realized that UST certification is useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Bone View Post
    Look at the bright side.... at least they're expensive as hell!
    Bwahahaha!!!! No shit bro. Totally not worth the money. They should suck my (HEY!!!) For that money. These may be my first and last carbon rims. Okay not likely. They are strong as Fuucccckkk. I haven't had to tweak a spoke yet and i'm pretty good at jackin' up wheels.

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  38. #38
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    I've have a number of carbon wheels/rims (DT Swiss, SRAM, ENVE, Ibis, Easton, Reynolds). I've used lots of different tires (Maxxis, WTB, Geax/Vittoria, Conti, Intense, etc.). Ease and difficulty installing and removing tires is a crap-shoot, but I've had the best luck (consistency) with DT Swiss rims.

    It'd be interesting to measure rims and tires against their nominal dimensions. Frankly, I don't think rim and tire manufacturers do a whole lot of QA so there's probably a lot of variance (virtually everything is probably good enough to ship). They probably believe they have their manufacturing dialed in and wait for field failures before checking into things.

    I agree that UST was complete useless BS. The only times I've had burps (leading to crashes) were on Mavic UST wheelsets. I've sworn off anything Mavic.

  39. #39
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    The older Enve wheels were a pain to get a bead off some tires (my experience was mostly with Schwalbe tires). I normally use a Black and Decker Workmate (or a vise with soft jaws) to help break the bead from the rim. Then I use Park tire levers with the metal core to get the rest of the bead off the tire (also, downhill tire levers are great at getting the bead off).
    Pissed off at my Enve M70 wheels-img_8237.jpg
    Pissed off at my Enve M70 wheels-img_8238.jpg
    Pissed off at my Enve M70 wheels-img_8239.jpg

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by flipnidaho View Post
    The older Enve wheels were a pain to get a bead off some tires (my experience was mostly with Schwalbe tires). I normally use a Black and Decker Workmate (or a vise with soft jaws) to help break the bead from the rim. Then I use Park tire levers with the metal core to get the rest of the bead off the tire (also, downhill tire levers are great at getting the bead off).
    Click image for larger version. 

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    those were the wheels I had. It took a act of congress to get the bead to break off the rim the thicker the tire the more of a pain. The super gravity from Schwalbe was a real chore but DD from maxxis was by far the worst.

  41. #41
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    Those tire levers look like they'd damage the rim tape, but that could be my Pedro's tire lever bias showing. xD

    Do you work the tire with your other hand as you try to get the bead over the flange and off the rim? I do that to baby the rim, and not rely too much on forcing the tire lever on the tire and rim.
    We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking.

  42. #42
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    I have used my feet to do the job of pushing beads to the rim center.
    It's a bit tricky and a pain but doable. It gets better over time with experiences.

  43. #43
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    Have you thought to measure the BSD and ask ENVE if it is in spec?
    I know Stan's used a go/no go tape for QC because their design was so BSD dependent.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  44. #44
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    Did you deflate the tire 1st?
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  45. #45
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    Put the tire in the sun or heat 'em up so they're pliable. Doing this kind of stuff in the freezing cold makes a hard job nearly impossible. Nothing is impossible, tho'
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