Onyx Racing Hubs - Sprag Clutch vs other types of Engagement- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Onyx Racing Hubs - The best of all worlds, fast engagement, strong, durable

    I wanted to start a clean thread about Onyx Racing hubs, but first some tech talk:

    In terms of "what drives a hub", these are the primary groups:

    Ratchet and Pawl (Ex: Hope, SRAM, Shimano, Hadley)

    Star Ratchet (DT Swiss, Chris King*)

    Tech resource: How Things Work: The Freehub Body - Dirt

    Roller Clutch (True Precision Stealth): FAQ | True Precision Components


    Sprag Clutch (Onyx Racing):
    FAQs
    Sprag clutch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I discovered Onyx Racing hubs while looking for strong hubs to run on a fat tandem. Tandems are very hard on hubs, the combination of team weight, frame flex, and high torque tend to trash bearings and tear up pawls.

    Admittedly, Onyx Racing has the worst website imaginable, but don't let this dissuade you from taking a look at what they have to offer: a strong hub with nearly instant engagement.

    I have posted comments on the Onyx Racing Hubs to other threads, so I'll copy them below: http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/...-933929-5.html

    "Our hubs are 15 x 150/12 x 170, built on Scraper rims, running Trax fatty 3.25, on a Ventana Jefe Tandem. We chose these hubs because tandems are very hard on rear hubs due to issues with extreme flex and torque.

    So far we have taken ten hard rides on a tandem; these rides have included Moab slickrock, numerous hill climbs on single track, and lots of rolling single track, and a bunch of fast descents on ugly terrain. We (I) tend to pick terrain that most people would not consider tandem friendly. My wife just follows along without complain as long as I don't dump her

    The slickrock riding is really a great test for a tandem hub because there is no tire slippage; as a result the hub is taking all of the torque without relief or cushion. We rode most of the trails at Klondike including Baby Steps, UFO, etc... which had more drops that I choose to count, and the hub is as good as new.

    To put our limited ride count on this hub in perspective, a single tandem ride equates to two or three as much abuse as you'd get from a solo bike because the torque of two riders is so much greater than a single rider, not to mention frame twisting.

    So far this hub is great, it is super smooth, super quiet, and engagement is nearly instantaneous. The only concern I have heard voices with this type of hub is contamination from wet conditions (Mikesee). Supposedly the seals are really good on the Onyx; I think some guys are using them for snow biking in AK. Again, this would be one of those issues that come out over time, so riders in wet areas should take this with a grain of salt.

    The Onyx hubs come with a one year mechanism/five year hub body warranty, but of course using a warranty for a failure takes your bike out of commission. I believe you can replace the core if the hub internals get damaged, but I don't know for sure.

    I like the Onyx hub enough that I'll be using the same wheel set for my Mutz and when I build a wheel set for my Atlas; it will be on Onyx hubs.

    The engagement is so good with Onyx that it really has to be experienced. I can only compare it to riding a Muni (unicycle), where the only slack in the engagement is from the chain. The rear hub also seems to have gotten fast, i.e. it spins forever compared to a ratchet hub.

    I think the weight and price on an Onyx hub are commensurate with the what you get. If you want a less expensive hub or a lighter weight hub, then there are many to choose from including Profile.

    As far as I know, the only hub to comparable to the Onyx, is the True Precision Stealth made in San Diego, it has a slightly different mechanism, it was also developed in conjunction with BMX. The Stealth is not available in 170/190."
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Onyx Racing Hubs - Sprag Clutch vs other types of Engagement-kimg0851.jpg  

    Onyx Racing Hubs - Sprag Clutch vs other types of Engagement-kimg0849.jpg  

    Onyx Racing Hubs - Sprag Clutch vs other types of Engagement-kimg0848.jpg  

    Onyx Racing Hubs - Sprag Clutch vs other types of Engagement-kimg0838.jpg  

    Last edited by Nurse Ben; 06-02-2015 at 09:38 AM.

  2. #2
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    Anyone want to add wet weather feedback?

    Just got our second set for a 29+ build, pics to follow:

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    Nurse Ben, have you messed w/ the pre-load on your rear hub? I have the drive side cap threaded on finger tight. Any more and it starts to drag. Any thoughts? I'm tempted to loc-tite it on.

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    The preload is from the disc side, the retainer has an allen head bolt, loosen it to tighten prevent side to side movement of the hub body on the axle. The hub ends should slip in and out, like a Hope, at least the disc side one does.

    And yeah, there is a tad bit of drag when I snug up the rear, kinda feels "friction", but the front is fine, so it probably has something to do with the mechanism.

    Finger tight is good, that's what I've been doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by natron5000 View Post
    Nurse Ben, have you messed w/ the pre-load on your rear hub? I have the drive side cap threaded on finger tight. Any more and it starts to drag. Any thoughts? I'm tempted to loc-tite it on.

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    not the prettiest thing is it? i imagine they will do some more straight forward colours? mind if i ask how much that bad boy set you back?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cunningstunts View Post
    not the prettiest thing is it? i imagine they will do some more straight forward colours? mind if i ask how much that bad boy set you back?
    I think they will do about any color you want. Laser etching too.

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    anyone reckon why they don't have their mtn bike hubs on their website???

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    Quote Originally Posted by cunningstunts View Post
    anyone reckon why they don't have their mtn bike hubs on their website???
    No. Check out the FB page.

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    What do they charge for their disk hubs

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    Here you are:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/cukva6gr79...heet.xlsx?dl=0

    They will be on my Smoothest Rolling Bike

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    Quote Originally Posted by natron5000 View Post
    No. Check out the FB page.
    And this is why I will never be a customer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    And this is why I will never be a customer.
    Seriously dude, that shitty website is killing me when I am riding on their hubs. Knowing that they are interwebs bogus really ruins the sweet, sweet smooth and silent rolling with unbelievably instant engagement. What was I thinking when I picked up the phone and talked to their friendly, helpful and knowledgeable makers before ordering? Easily the best hubs I have ever ridden, but I should toss them because of that tragic web experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VonFalkenhausen View Post
    Seriously dude, that shitty website is killing me when I am riding on their hubs. Knowing that they are interwebs bogus really ruins the sweet, sweet smooth and silent rolling with unbelievably instant engagement. What was I thinking when I picked up the phone and talked to their friendly, helpful and knowledgeable makers before ordering? Easily the best hubs I have ever ridden, but I should toss them because of that tragic web experience.
    Seriously, Dude.

  16. #16
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    I have an Onyx rear hub that I'm going to building up next week...can't wait!

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    not to put too much emphasis on a website, but theirs is just so bad it seems hard to imagine the same people can make a brilliant piece of engineering. now with that out of the way, is there a top retailer for this brand of hub? certainly nothing here in Canada. who should i go to for more details and ordering?

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    Allen Stark
    Onyx Racing Products
    320-310-7887
    [email protected]
    [email protected]
    Onyx Racing Products - Contact Us

    This is fairly comprehensive for build details. https://www.dropbox.com/s/wexdcsc73w...pecs.xlsx?dl=0

    Contact direct for custom options like color and conversion parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cunningstunts View Post
    not to put too much emphasis on a website, but theirs is just so bad it seems hard to imagine the same people can make a brilliant piece of engineering. now with that out of the way, is there a top retailer for this brand of hub? certainly nothing here in Canada. who should i go to for more details and ordering?
    Universal Cycles. They have them in stock and were pretty good about answering my questions.

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    That excel list is interesting. There are far more options than I thought they had.

    I'm this close (> <) to ordering a rear hub for my road bike. I think the buzz of the King is a good thing for the crowded trails around here but a silent road bike would be fantastic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    I think the buzz of the King is a good thing for the crowded trails around here but a silent road bike would be fantastic.
    I am in no way trying to sway you away from Onyx in any way, but unless you have ridden King hubs recently...they really aren't very loud imho. My buddy on Hopes and my I9's are at least twice as loud as my King hubs w/ SS fh body.

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    I've been on King for a while. Mine was fairly quiet for the first year. It seems to get louder every time I clean it and re-lube. I also just switched to the xtr 9000 cassette and I swear it amplifies it even more.

    After briefly trying an onyx a few weeks ago, it hasn't been a question of wanting one, it's which bike I'll buy one for first. While I want instant engagement for trails, I think noise is a benefit to others. Plus, I'm really regretting using a dt 350 for my current road wheels. It feels clunky and sounds like crap.

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    My road bike is 135 with disc, so I think I'm getting their CX hub when they are available. The cx hub uses a slimmer shell and one and a half doohickies versus the mtb hub which has two doohickies - so, lighter weight. Excuse the technical jargon

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    Quote Originally Posted by cunningstunts View Post
    not to put too much emphasis on a website, but theirs is just so bad it seems hard to imagine the same people can make a brilliant piece of engineering. now with that out of the way, is there a top retailer for this brand of hub? certainly nothing here in Canada. who should i go to for more details and ordering?
    LaMere is an Onyx dealer.
    LaMere Cycles Custom Carbon Bicycles

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    QBP is also an Onyx dealer. But no info on the website yet.
    Quality Bicycle Products | Every Butt on a Bike

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    CK is a great producer, but their hubs aren't even in the same league with Onyx.

    If CK made a hub design like Onyx, I'd buy them!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    I am in no way trying to sway you away from Onyx in any way, but unless you have ridden King hubs recently...they really aren't very loud imho. My buddy on Hopes and my I9's are at least twice as loud as my King hubs w/ SS fh body.

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    Yeah, why would you want talk to a real person, send texts back and forth, or receive emails. I'd much rather have a high tech website and order without ever interacting with a human.

    They are so smooth and engage so fast, once you roll a hub like Onyx, there's no going back.

    But hey, don't take "our" word, you all just keep rolling CK and all those pawl hubs, it won't hurt my feelings

    I'm building a third set for a 26 x 4" winter wheel set, kinda struggling with colors, I have gold and red, so perhaps I'll go with silver or black...wait, why not a zebra?!

    As to prices, I get a discount for helping out a buddy in his shop, but they are around the same price as Hadley or CK.

  28. #28
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    Sweet looking hubs, great to see some actual innovation in the market for this type of component. I'll consider these for sure but wish they were lighter and less expensive. The Hope Pro 2 evo 40t I run on all my bikes have always been reliable and at 200g less weight and over $200 less provide a pretty compelling weight, performance, dollar ratio.

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    Looks like the website is down as of now.
    But can someone please tell me where they are made?

    Thank you
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    Avid is spelled wrong, there should be an 'O' in there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by acer66 View Post
    Looks like the website is down as of now.
    But can someone please tell me where they are made?

    Thank you
    The hubs are made in Minnesota, and the sprags and bearings are sourced from Germany.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VonFalkenhausen View Post
    The hubs are made in Minnesota, and the sprags and bearings are sourced from Germany.
    Danke Herr von Falkenhausen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Avid is spelled wrong, there should be an 'O' in there.

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    It's not entirely about durability and silent running, the real performamce benefits are in the immediate engagement and frictionless coasting.

    Once you ride these hubs, there's no going back, ratchet hubs will feel annoyingly slow.

    I'm starting my third Onyx wheel build this fall, just need to pick a color. I'm thinking silver with red streaks, or maybe red with gold streaks, or ...

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    How do get these custom color combos I see around? Do they just make random cool batches and if you happen to be on the spot at the right time you're stoked? Or do the have a custom order procedure for an up Charge? Looking through thier Facebook photos reveals some insane color ways that I would love get ahold of for my build

    Sorry for the thread drift

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    We stock over 20 different colors. If you have a specific color you'd like to match we can help with that also, usually there is no up-charge. Send us an email [email protected] or give us a call at 800-328-8896 option 2.
    Thanks!

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    Do they have a SS hub with 142x12 axle? Is it a real "one piece axle" or just end caps on a 135? Also what is the free hub body made of?
    These are the main reasons I went with Hadley SS hubs for my SS Sir9. A real 142x12 one piece axle and a Ti free hub body. Obviously not the Hadley website,lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardmtnbiker View Post
    Do they have a SS hub with 142x12 axle? Is it a real "one piece axle" or just end caps on a 135? Also what is the free hub body made of?
    These are the main reasons I went with Hadley SS hubs for my SS Sir9. A real 142x12 one piece axle and a Ti free hub body. Obviously not the Hadley website,lol.
    I remember them posting a hub with a short freehub body for SS and DJ use that was available in 142/12 axle, just call them up and I am sure they would be happy to give you all the details, I had all my questions answered in great detail when I was preparing to order my set. I believe all their freehub shells are steel for the strength required to properly support the Sprag drive system. They are stout hubs.

  38. #38
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    Any word on how user-serviceable these are?

    I'm having a new wheelset built and am considering these vs. I9 Torches vs. DT 240s. Leaning toward the DTs, due to how dead simple they are to work on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Love Commander View Post
    Any word on how user-serviceable these are?

    I'm having a new wheelset built and am considering these vs. I9 Torches vs. DT 240s. Leaning toward the DTs, due to how dead simple they are to work on.
    Here is a couple quick videos on the complete tear down of our mtb hubs. We'll be posting new videos to our youtube channel soon.

    Part 1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jmnh0np95...b1of2.mov?dl=0

    Part 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ncp17s91ca...b2of2.mov?dl=0

    Any other questions just hit us up!

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Gerhardt View Post
    Here is a couple quick videos on the complete tear down of our mtb hubs. We'll be posting new videos to our youtube channel soon.

    Part 1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jmnh0np95...b1of2.mov?dl=0

    Part 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ncp17s91ca...b2of2.mov?dl=0

    Any other questions just hit us up!

    Have you tried these in cold weather?? I mean like -20C cold. What were the results?
    Can you substitute the grease/oil for the sprag with any other (thinner) oil/grease for cold weather use or will they only work with one kind of lube?

    I have a TP that I've done about 15000km on, and at about 10000 the mechanism looked brand new, I could not see evidence of any metal to metal contact at all. and that surprised me.

    What type of alu is used for the shell? If I sent you a piece of Ti could you build me a hub with a Ti shell (6al4v)?
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    Have you tried these in cold weather?? I mean like -20C cold. What were the results?
    Can you substitute the grease/oil for the sprag with any other (thinner) oil/grease for cold weather use or will they only work with one kind of lube?

    I have a TP that I've done about 15000km on, and at about 10000 the mechanism looked brand new, I could not see evidence of any metal to metal contact at all. and that surprised me.

    What type of alu is used for the shell? If I sent you a piece of Ti could you build me a hub with a Ti shell (6al4v)?
    No issues in extreme cold weather. We recommend the use of Kluber LDS 18 Spec A greaase, very light coating. Less is more in this application. The grease limits are

    • Upper Heat Range 120 deg Celsius
    • Lower Heat Range -50 deg Celsius


    We use a 7075 material on our shells, we are not tooled up for the Ti!

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    Eyeing these and trying to work out whether to go with the 12x142mm for my existing frame and hope boost dies.

    So in theory if you have a 12x142mm Onyx rear hub and in the future the only frame options that interest you have boost spacing can you convert your hub with a new axle and hub shell (a la Chris King)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalDonk View Post
    Eyeing these and trying to work out whether to go with the 12x142mm for my existing frame and hope boost dies.

    So in theory if you have a 12x142mm Onyx rear hub and in the future the only frame options that interest you have boost spacing can you convert your hub with a new axle and hub shell (a la Chris King)?
    Most likely yes, but the hub will not have the slightly wider flange spacing, so it will not actually be a boost hub. I believe you would also need a brake rotor spacer.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    Most likely yes, but the hub will not have the slightly wider flange spacing, so it will not actually be a boost hub. I believe you would also need a brake rotor spacer.
    A new axle and hub shell should move the flanges out so externally it would be a boost setup. My question is focused on whether the internals would play nice with a new hub shell.

  45. #45
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    If you haven't done it yet, check out their facebook page. New hub porn all the time. I think I need to get a set in red with gold axles and end caps. Nobody in the component world is doing finishes like onyx.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalDonk View Post
    Eyeing these and trying to work out whether to go with the 12x142mm for my existing frame and hope boost dies.

    So in theory if you have a 12x142mm Onyx rear hub and in the future the only frame options that interest you have boost spacing can you convert your hub with a new axle and hub shell (a la Chris King)?
    To change from a 135/142 spaced hub you would need to send the hub back to us for a shell and axle swap. Everything else in the hub is the same assuming you have the 142/12 end caps on. Our trade-back program would allow a model-to-model swap at 75% off, plus additional parts. So retail on the rear hub is 445, less 75%, leaves you 111.25 to change out the shell (includes servicing) and 60 for a new axle.

  47. #47
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    Great info. Thank you Jim.

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    I finally pulled the trigger for an Onyx rear 12x142 hub..AMAZING!

    Nice and smooth. I don't like loud hubs...the silence is golden.

    The weight is NOT and issue.

  49. #49
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    After two rides on my Onyx hubs, I couldn't believe how much they make even the best hubs feel like department store level product. The instant engagement is so instant that the only play you can feel is in your chain! And then they're completely silent and roll really fast.

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    Any long term usage feedback info fellas?

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    Quote Originally Posted by verrocchio100 View Post
    Any long term usage feedback info fellas?
    After 6 months of hard MTB riding on East Coast, still spin forever and not one problem. So smooth!! Now Jim when will they get lighter? 100g or so!!

  52. #52
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    No no no. There's no making them lighter. I'd actually prefer them in an even heavier version. Totally approve the idea about titanium shells, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgw7000 View Post
    After 6 months of hard MTB riding on East Coast, still spin forever and not one problem. So smooth!! Now Jim when will they get lighter? 100g or so!!
    Hopefully never.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

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  54. #54
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    My 190x12mm thru is approx. 560grams with steel shimano/sram freehub. Going to use it for my Fatboy but wondering if I should get end caps to convert to 190QR or look for drop-down thru-axle for more stiffness. Judging by threads here, should be a big enough market for someone to produce a thru-axle because the Fatboy needs a very stiff hub for us 200+ lb. riders. My Hope QR hub is just barely holding on.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by verrocchio100 View Post
    Any long term usage feedback info fellas?
    I have been on them for roughly a year now and am still a huge fan.

    The real test for me is having them on my fatbike and having my little boy sitting behind me on the kiddie seat. Lots of weight, lots of stress and lots of traction! Hubs are still perfect and have never skipped a beat.
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    While I don't have Onyx hubs, I know several that do, and they love them. I have read of several tandem riders with Onyx hubs, and I can't possibly think of a bike that would place greater demands of its hubs. That should be a testament of their qualities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleared2land View Post
    While I don't have Onyx hubs, I know several that do, and they love them. I have read of several tandem riders with Onyx hubs, and I can't possibly think of a bike that would place greater demands of its hubs. That should be a testament of their qualities.
    My local shop that has sold many sets of Onyx hubs with Derby rims, 0 problems with everyone loving the silent wheels. I was the first since I introduced the shop owner the Jim G. of Onyx. Jim is a very passionate about his hubs and passion drives only the best parts and guality that go into making Onyx so special!! Seems everyone now knows Onyx.

  58. #58
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    A buddy of mine toured Onyx and helped assemble the rear hub I now have on my fat bike. I am the (mtbr named) unofficial durability tester for fat bike rear hubs, so if I cannot break them...rest assured they will be fine for 99.99999% of the people in the world.

  59. #59
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    Seems the same as the already existing True precision silent hub.
    Stealth MTB Rear Hub | True Precision Components

    would be interested in a light al mountain" version
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  60. #60
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    The mechanism is different. Onyx uses a sprag clutch, True Precision uses a roller clutch. I suggest you read the first post of the thread.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by 20.100 FR View Post
    Seems the same as the already existing True precision silent hub.
    Stealth MTB Rear Hub | True Precision Components

    would be interested in a light al mountain" version
    Totally different type of clutch system. Roller clutch vs Sprag clutch. There are some great vids on youtube showing how they are vastly different.
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  62. #62
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    Some of the other notable differences include Metric sized bearings in Onyx vs Imperial sized ones in TP, and better sealing in Onyx vs TP. At least as compared to TP generation S2.

    A very important advantage of DJ/SS Onyx over TP Poacher is the HG splined driver body vs using proprietary cogs.


    (This is coming from a long time user, and fan, of TP Poacher S2. I'm extremely spoiled with the silence and the instant engagement, and guys at TP rock.)


    PS.
    There are also differences between TP and Onyx in how axles, hub shells, and driver bodies carry loads, and other, smaller ones, but none of these make either choice better or worse for the end user.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by verrocchio100 View Post
    Any long term usage feedback info fellas?
    I have 9 months on mine and they are still as smooth and silent as day one. Excellent hubs.

  64. #64
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    Nobl is providing wheels using Nobl branded hubs which are made exclusively by Onyx. This is for anyone wanted to buy a factory carbon wheel with sprag clutch technology.

    https://noblwheels.com/products/27-5-33mm-wheelset

  65. #65
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    One thing I don't like is how loose my XT cassette fits on the fh body. Almost like the fh body is about 1mm too small in diameter.

  66. #66
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    drench it in loctite.
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  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    drench it in loctite.
    Come on man, be reasonable. Just wrap some duct tape around it. I can't remember any notable fit issue with mine, no tape or loctite was required, I am running a Garbaruk extender with 7/10 of an XT cassette. It spins happy and true, but there does seem to be a lot of leeway in the industry. I have had combinations of parts that would barely go together and others that were disturbingly loose but never one that caused a problem once assembled and torqued up.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    drench it in loctite.
    How about I drench you in loctite...not talking blue stuff either!

  69. #69
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    Doing that will hardly make your cassette fit tighter on the freehub though.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derp View Post
    Nobl is providing wheels using Nobl branded hubs which are made exclusively by Onyx. This is for anyone wanted to buy a factory carbon wheel with sprag clutch technology.

    https://noblwheels.com/products/27-5-33mm-wheelset
    Whoa. At current exchange rate their canuckistan price works out to $1382 US. I like to roll my own but thats not bad at all.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    Doing that will hardly make your cassette fit tighter on the freehub though.
    But it will make my pants tighter in the front.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    Whoa. At current exchange rate their canuckistan price works out to $1382 US. I like to roll my own but thats not bad at all.
    I know! Thankfully the US dollar is strong right now compared to our Loonie, For you guys at least. There are some good deals to be had.

  73. #73
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    I have two Onyx rear hubs, both on fatbikes. One is 177mm, the other is 217mm. I ordered these from Onyx because my all-time favorite hubs, DT Swiss, weren't (at the time) available in 177 or 217.

    The bike with the 177 rear hub is ridden unloaded, on techy day rides. The bike with the 217 is often ridden loaded on overnighters and multi-day trips. Can be anywhere from 50 to 80# when loaded as such.

    I've never really noticed anything about the 177 hub, other than it is so quiet that I've spent more time fine-tuning the rear brake on that bike than any brake, on any bike, ever before.

    The very first ride on the 217 hub was a multiday desert bike/boat trip. The bike was easily 75#, maybe more, and I had another ~20# on my back in water and camera gear. And I immediately noticed something odd about the hub: sponginess, or very soft engagement.

    In other words, if I apply both brakes and press down on the pedals, while the wheels don't move a millimeter, the cranks will rotate forward and the cassette will rotate forward. An alarming amount, actually.

    Make sense? The amount that the pedals can rotate as the cassette is also rotating is boggling. Something like 45-50 degrees before it finally firms up and stops moving. This is not 'free play'. Windup would be a better word.

    And, as we were crossing a vast chunk of desert landscape without benefit of trail, road, or bike shops along the way, I started to get really paranoid that something had been misassembled inside this hub. My bad for taking it immediately onto a 'deep' trip without even a short shakedown ride, but there I was. Worried that it was going to implode or explode and leave me with at least a 60-mile walk out, I started walking the steeper climbs. This is where the sponginess was most notable -- steep grade, good traction, heavy bike. Felt like the pedals were giving way a bit and then bouncing back at me on every stroke.

    I soft-pedaled and walked through every notable climb on this 5-day traverse, then when I got home I emailed Onyx to ask how to remove this sponginess from the hub.

    And to my surprise they said it was normal.

    Uhhh, what?

    Here's a quote from our email string:

    "First of all, a sprag clutch is always engaged, even when not pedaling your bike actually.

    This is what contributes to the true instant engagement. If you chose to drive your bike forward (without brakes), it would instantly do so. As more torque is put into the system, sprag clutches “wedge” or “standup” even further to deliver more torque to the system. This is what you are seeing when preventing the bike from moving forward and applying torque to the cranks."


    I understood what he was saying but I still struggled with the idea that my hub was supposed to feel this way. Do other people not notice this? It feels, to me, like something is broken, or bent, or otherwise not right with the hub.

    I asked for some clarification, and the next reply I got was:

    "You would never feel this if you were riding or allowing the bike to move forward. But is the case where you are up against a wall or have the brakes applied, you will see the sprags wedging further or standing up to handle the torque applied."

    And that's the kicker -- I felt it *immediately* when I laced this hub, and I feel it on every climb when I'm in either of my two easiest gears. Like there are rubber bands effecting the engagement.

    I've gotten used to lots of weird things on bikes over the past few decades. As long as they don't fail outright, quirky bits can enrich the riding experience.

    But this feel? This might be a bridge too far for me.

  74. #74
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    Yes there is some springiness with a sprag hub when standing still, but moving you would never notice that because it has no negative impact on your riding. That springiness goes away while you're moving and translates to instant engagement. It actually has "deadened" my bike but in a good way. Like, there is zero noise and the drivetrain is damped against the clang of a regular pawl system. All I can hear now are the knobs of my tires and that's a beautiful thing.

    I was told that Onyx hubs were tested to something like 4 or 5 million hard torque cycles and there were no failures? It was a crazy high number.

  75. #75
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    I don't know how much the total amount of your rig is with you on it, but I am guessing mine is 295lbs max. I don't haul anything, other than my fat a$$ up hills. I did notice the issue you are talking about with the brakes applied while pushing down on the cranks, and I remember nurse ben talking about this. But I cannot say that I have noticed it at all while riding. Because our trails are wet now, I have been riding a lot of deer trails..which means lots and lots of tight, quick, low speed action, fallen tree type of riding (deer don't consider us mtbr's when constructing a trail I guess). I have also done some very steep climbs. I cannot say I have every felt any softness while riding, but I am kinda numb to such things I think....others might be able to tell.

    I was able to lift my front end and climb just fine, and it felt no different than my I9.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derp View Post
    Yes there is some springiness with a sprag hub when standing still, but moving you would never notice that because it has no negative impact on your riding.
    I've already said that I do notice it. Right from the get-go on my very first ride, and increasingly on every ride since.

    Perhaps I should be the one that determines what impact it has on my riding, and not you?

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I've already said that I do notice it. Right from the get-go on my very first ride, and increasingly on every ride since.

    Perhaps I should be the one that determines what impact it has on my riding, and not you?
    I think you chould keep going after ONYX on this (and possibly dont pay as much attention to what fanboys are saying - deal direct with the manufacturer - they seem pretty solid).

    Is it possible to weight up the other hub you have and see if you can get a similar feeling?

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    I think you chould keep going after ONYX on this (and possibly dont pay as much attention to what fanboys are saying - deal direct with the manufacturer - they seem pretty solid).

    Is it possible to weight up the other hub you have and see if you can get a similar feeling?
    Onyx has said it's normal. The question is whether I can get used to it.

    No other hub in the shop feels this way.

  79. #79
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    I've ridden some technical climbs with mine, where basically I'm stalled for a moment with all of my weight on the pedal and pulling up hard on the bars, and have never noticed any slipping. I'd assume just a few degrees would be noticeable similar to what a spinning tire is like in this situation. I'm only 160 pounds though on a 2.2 tire so probably not near as much torque as your case.

    I'd hope Onyx would work with you since you have 2 of their rear hubs and can't replicate this with both.

  80. #80
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    mikesee, have you looked inside the hub?

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I have two Onyx rear hubs, both on fatbikes. One is 177mm, the other is 217mm. I ordered these from Onyx because my all-time favorite hubs, DT Swiss, weren't (at the time) available in 177 or 217.

    The bike with the 177 rear hub is ridden unloaded, on techy day rides. The bike with the 217 is often ridden loaded on overnighters and multi-day trips. Can be anywhere from 50 to 80# when loaded as such.

    I've never really noticed anything about the 177 hub, other than it is so quiet that I've spent more time fine-tuning the rear brake on that bike than any brake, on any bike, ever before.

    The very first ride on the 217 hub was a multiday desert bike/boat trip. The bike was easily 75#, maybe more, and I had another ~20# on my back in water and camera gear. And I immediately noticed something odd about the hub: sponginess, or very soft engagement.

    In other words, if I apply both brakes and press down on the pedals, while the wheels don't move a millimeter, the cranks will rotate forward and the cassette will rotate forward. An alarming amount, actually.

    Make sense? The amount that the pedals can rotate as the cassette is also rotating is boggling. Something like 45-50 degrees before it finally firms up and stops moving. This is not 'free play'. Windup would be a better word.

    And, as we were crossing a vast chunk of desert landscape without benefit of trail, road, or bike shops along the way, I started to get really paranoid that something had been misassembled inside this hub. My bad for taking it immediately onto a 'deep' trip without even a short shakedown ride, but there I was. Worried that it was going to implode or explode and leave me with at least a 60-mile walk out, I started walking the steeper climbs. This is where the sponginess was most notable -- steep grade, good traction, heavy bike. Felt like the pedals were giving way a bit and then bouncing back at me on every stroke.

    I soft-pedaled and walked through every notable climb on this 5-day traverse, then when I got home I emailed Onyx to ask how to remove this sponginess from the hub.

    And to my surprise they said it was normal.

    Uhhh, what?

    Here's a quote from our email string:

    "First of all, a sprag clutch is always engaged, even when not pedaling your bike actually.

    This is what contributes to the true instant engagement. If you chose to drive your bike forward (without brakes), it would instantly do so. As more torque is put into the system, sprag clutches “wedge” or “standup” even further to deliver more torque to the system. This is what you are seeing when preventing the bike from moving forward and applying torque to the cranks."


    I understood what he was saying but I still struggled with the idea that my hub was supposed to feel this way. Do other people not notice this? It feels, to me, like something is broken, or bent, or otherwise not right with the hub.

    I asked for some clarification, and the next reply I got was:

    "You would never feel this if you were riding or allowing the bike to move forward. But is the case where you are up against a wall or have the brakes applied, you will see the sprags wedging further or standing up to handle the torque applied."

    And that's the kicker -- I felt it *immediately* when I laced this hub, and I feel it on every climb when I'm in either of my two easiest gears. Like there are rubber bands effecting the engagement.

    I've gotten used to lots of weird things on bikes over the past few decades. As long as they don't fail outright, quirky bits can enrich the riding experience.

    But this feel? This might be a bridge too far for me.
    the only thing that could theoretically cause this is if the clutch was slipping due to wrong grease or similar (too low temps maybe, oil/grease gets too stiff)). Or possibly if the axle/freehub sliding surface (like in a tp construction) was too small. or like in the onyx if the outer tube/shell piece that the sprag will lock too/slide against is too large. Probably only takes a few 0,01mm out of spec to make it partially slip (which is what you are experiencing).

    You have faulty hub imo
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  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Onyx has said it's normal. The question is whether I can get used to it.

    No other hub in the shop feels this way.
    I know my Onyx hubs have some "wind up" in them, just not as much as you are experiencing. I wonder if a sprag was missed when it was assembled. You should have 2, I wonder if only 1 was dropped in. Sounds strange.

    Have you taken it apart and seen what the guts look like? Here are some links if you haven't seen them.

    Part 1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jmnh0np95...b1of2.mov?dl=0

    Part 2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/ncp17s91ca...b2of2.mov?dl=0
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  83. #83
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    If you feel it in one hub but not the other the conclusion is obv. Are you SURE you felt it while riding, and it wasn't just a placebo effect?

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by dustyduke22 View Post
    I know my Onyx hubs have some "wind up" in them, just not as much as you are experiencing. I wonder if a sprag was missed when it was assembled. You should have 2, I wonder if only 1 was dropped in. Sounds strange.

    Have you taken it apart and seen what the guts look like? Here are some links if you haven't seen them.

    Part 1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jmnh0np95...b1of2.mov?dl=0

    Part 2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/ncp17s91ca...b2of2.mov?dl=0
    Even with 1 lockup should be instant instant imo. It might not manage much torque of the long run but initially it should be rock solid.
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  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    If you feel it in one hub but not the other the conclusion is obv. Are you SURE you felt it while riding, and it wasn't just a placebo effect?
    He said its slipping, then its slipping. and it caused by one of the reasons i just posted.
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    Specialized sucks ass.

  86. #86
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    My tp has been rock solid though. i have no idea what this onyx craze is all about since its pretty much the same mechanism at action here to make it lock up. My tp has been rock solid for 15000km at least. mostly in rain. i need to swap 1 bearing out now but still its quuite good durablility of that hub. didn't do jack sh1t to it for that period. i will swap all bearings though.
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  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    And, as we were crossing a vast chunk of desert landscape without benefit of trail, road, or bike shops along the way, I started to get really paranoid that something had been misassembled inside this hub.
    Paranoid is an unjustified fear. I would place your concerns as justified.
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  88. #88
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    I ride techy chunk most of the time. I also ratchet to negotiate features a lot so I fully use the Onyx as it was intended. Yes, there is a slight, very slight feeling of "softness", but now I never even think about the hub, either it's remarkable quietness or the slightly instant engagement. It just has disappeared form the radar. With my I-9 and 240s I was always aware of the hub, in engagement and/or sound.
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  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    He said its slipping, then its slipping. and it caused by one of the reasons i just posted.
    It is not slipping, I know exactly what he is referring to as I have the same hub. Basically the initial engagement is instant but not locked, and between the time the sprags initially engage and completely lock, there is a soft of spongy feeling (what onyx described as the sprags standing up as more torque is applied). Think of it like a big ol' drag slick on a high horsepower car. Launching off the line the tire is in contact with the ground, but as the wheel spins the tire wrinkles a bit then the car launches. Nothing is slipping, but it isn't a 100% on/off feeling.

    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    My tp has been rock solid though. i have no idea what this onyx craze is all about since its pretty much the same mechanism at action here to make it lock up.
    The TP roller clutch system and Onyx Sprag clutch systems are actually very different. Google both and you will see the achieve engagement in two totally different methods with very different parts. The reason onyx is big in the fat bike world is they will make you whatever size you need, and are a proven bulletproof design by years and years of very abusive BMX testing. Mikesee would not be riding the bike he is right now w/o onyx?

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    He said its slipping, then its slipping. and it caused by one of the reasons i just posted.
    Did he actually say that it was slipping?
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  91. #91
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    i enterpret this as slipping:
    And I immediately noticed something odd about the hub: sponginess, or very soft engagement.

    In other words, if I apply both brakes and press down on the pedals, while the wheels don't move a millimeter, the cranks will rotate forward and the cassette will rotate forward. An alarming amount, actually.

    Make sense? The amount that the pedals can rotate as the cassette is also rotating is boggling. Something like 45-50 degrees before it finally firms up and stops moving. This is not 'free play'. Windup would be a better word.
    jonshonda: i know how both of them works and how they look inside. I still think his hub is out of spec or broken. It should be like 4-5deg at most imo and not 50. and even 4-5 isn't good.
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  92. #92
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    I overlooked the part where he said 45-50 degrees. Yeah, you've got something wrong with your hub.

  93. #93
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    Also i think if the actual small "wedges" that stand up in the sprag clutch is machined to the wrong profile or slightly too small or something I guess you could get that same problem too. I think thats highly unlikely though, but possible. if its a 2 doohickey hub its even less likely.
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  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleared2land View Post
    Did he actually say that it was slipping?
    It was probably really loose spokes due to the amateur that built the wheel.

    Seriously though. I've sampled the onyx hubs twice now, and there is a very very slight squish thing that happened when I backpedaled a little and then applied power quickly in a low gear. It's like your squashing an elastomer bushing a little bit. BUT, whatever that dead zone was in actual degrees, it was still less than my king hub, which is impressive.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    the only thing that could theoretically cause this is if the clutch was slipping due to wrong grease or similar (too low temps maybe, oil/grease gets too stiff)). Or possibly if the axle/freehub sliding surface (like in a tp construction) was too small. or like in the onyx if the outer tube/shell piece that the sprag will lock too/slide against is too large. Probably only takes a few 0,01mm out of spec to make it partially slip (which is what you are experiencing).

    You have faulty hub imo
    It's not slipping. When I tension the pedals as described, you can see the chain load up, and the cassette and pedals start to rotate forward -- and they continue rotating until a certain point (basically when I can't push any harder) and then they stop. There is never a slip in there. When I release tension from the pedals the whole system unwinds and backs up.

    I will try to shoot a video of it, but no camera at work today.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    It is not slipping, Think of it like a big ol' drag slick on a high horsepower car. Launching off the line the tire is in contact with the ground, but as the wheel spins the tire wrinkles a bit then the car launches. Nothing is slipping, but it isn't a 100% on/off feeling.
    This is a good way to put it.

    I've never really given a rip about high engagement. I've owned fast engaging hubs and I just never notice it either way. I can ride an 18 POE DT hub one day and a 72 POE King (or whoever) the next, and whatever difference is there just doesn't amount to a hill of beans for me. I am still the weak link in the equation.

    So I didn't buy Onyx because of the hyped up engagement, nor for the silence when coasting. I wanted to try something new, and I did. I was surprised that I hadn't heard more about this spongy feel, because it's infinitely more noticeable to me than any amount (or lack of) engagement.

    And I didn't come here to throw Onyx under the bus. I reached out to them first, and I think I've shared their correspondence in a favorable light. There's nothing wrong with the hub per se, it just didn't match my expectations.

    Maybe others reading this will realize that this feel is *exactly* what they want, because it prevents the tire slipping in steep/loose/low traction situations, or something like that.

    I will continue to ride it, and if I can get used to the feel and it seems like I can trust it long-term for the 'out there' trips I do on this bike, then I'll keep it. If I can't, I'll sell it and move on.

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    I was just out trying to provoke my hub in doing the same. But I got zero movement. I mean zero. I think you have a faulty hub there. Especially if only one of the hubs is doing it. Warranty the hub imo.
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    mikesee, I honestly think you just need to ride it more and NOT concentrate on the pedals. Just ride some of the hardest stuff you can and be honest with yourself with regards to the sponginess. I often get all hyped up over something that isn't a big deal after I settle down for a few days.

    My buddy just barrowed my rear wheel and if he wouldn't have read your comments here, would not have known any difference (when brakes are applied and pushing down on the pedal). We hit some pretty steep hills, had to pop the front up a lot for log overs, and did a nice baby head rock climb. He didn't mention it one time.

    Also, you do realize that 45 degrees is 1/4 of a pedal stroke. You can make the pedal go from 3'oclock to 6'oclock when standing on the pedal w/ brakes locked? I get maybe..MAYBE 20 degrees when standing on it, but honestly cannot feel it at all riding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    mikesee, I honestly think you just need to ride it more and NOT concentrate on the pedals. Just ride some of the hardest stuff you can and be honest with yourself with regards to the sponginess. I often get all hyped up over something that isn't a big deal after I settle down for a few days.

    My buddy just barrowed my rear wheel and if he wouldn't have read your comments here, would not have known any difference (when brakes are applied and pushing down on the pedal). We hit some pretty steep hills, had to pop the front up a lot for log overs, and did a nice baby head rock climb. He didn't mention it one time.

    Also, you do realize that 45 degrees is 1/4 of a pedal stroke. You can make the pedal go from 3'oclock to 6'oclock when standing on the pedal w/ brakes locked? I get maybe..MAYBE 20 degrees when standing on it, but honestly cannot feel it at all riding.
    I don't need to concentrate on the pedals to feel it and be weirded out by it. I can be focusing on the view, an upcoming photo op, a conversation with a riding partner -- anything and everything else -- and then there it is, unmistakeable on every stroke as the grade gets steep.

    45 degrees is 1/8 of a crank revolution, not 1/4. As in 45 x 8 = 360. I don't have anyone else here to get down and verify the exact positions of the pedals, but standing over the bike I can push the right pedal from 3 o' clock to at least 5 o'clock, probably a little more, without the bike moving so much as a millimeter.

    I have not had the hub apart yet. No "free" time to do this, largely because other projects are pressing and I have no plans to ride this bike much or far in the immediate future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    It was probably really loose spokes due to the amateur that built the wheel.
    I'm not sure if you're being facetious, or what?

    Mike, do you know anything about building wheels?
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    Interesting mechanics. What gearing are you in that nets the 3 to 5 o'clock effect? 26x44? Lower?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I
    I've never really noticed anything about the 177 hub, other than it is so quiet that I've spent more time fine-tuning the rear brake on that bike than any brake, on any bike, ever before.
    That is funny stuff!
    Regarding the strange behavior of the 217 hub, however, I wonder if the "wind-up" phenomenon is specific to the hub size. It sounds like the 177 doesn't do it, but the 217 does. I can't remember from the Brrrly thread - but if the 217 is a one-off, it seems like the chance of something being slightly out of tolerance may be greater.
    Does this sound like a possibility? What if the distance between the shell of the hub (the surface the outer part/top of the sprag contacts) and the driver (the surface that the inner part/bottom of the sprag contacts) - was just a small amount more than intended - the sprags would need to "stand up" straighter before locking the rotational movement of the driver and hub shell. As they rotated more to get to the the wedge point, it seems like the driver/cassette would noticeably rotate further and produce a "wind up".

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    It could be a few different things. Most suspect is our tolerance stack, may be on the low end of things, causing the greatest amount of distance for the sprag to actuate. This coupled with a special 217/12 hub, heavy load, flex/etc could all contribute to it being so pronounced on this particular bike. I'll have to contact Mike tomorrow and see what we can do. We only made a handful of these for him so there is not a lot of feedback on it yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I don't need to concentrate on the pedals to feel it and be weirded out by it. I can be focusing on the view, an upcoming photo op, a conversation with a riding partner -- anything and everything else -- and then there it is, unmistakeable on every stroke as the grade gets steep.

    45 degrees is 1/8 of a crank revolution, not 1/4. As in 45 x 8 = 360.
    Yeah, I realized my math was fubar on my ride into work this morning. If you don't notice it on the 177 but do on the 217, then wouldn't you say its an isolated issue with the 217? How much time do you have riding on the 177? My guess is the o.d. of the drive shell (where the sprags contact) might be a mil or two undersized, meaning the sprags need to stand up a little bit more before they lock into place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I've already said that I do notice it. Right from the get-go on my very first ride, and increasingly on every ride since.

    Perhaps I should be the one that determines what impact it has on my riding, and not you?
    I was the 1st to mention this play a while back in another thread talking about high engagement hubs. It's real and can be felt, I have gotten used to it. Not a race bike hub!!

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    jonshonda, note how you used the term stroke and mikesee used the term revolution. By stroke you could have meant the part of revolution where quadriceps muscle works.

    dgw7000, what's your setup?

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    Niner WFO 29er 142x12 and 100x15, xx1 set-up. Wide Derby 35mm carbon rims. 2.35 tires

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    This feeling will be accentuated by the gear ratio. Say it is a 28t/42t, that gives you .67 wheel rotation per 1 revolution of the crank. 28/42 = .67, now take that divided by 1 full rotation, .67/360=.0019 wheel rotation per degree. He was talking 45-50 degrees, which is .08 to .09 total wheel rotation before complete lockup. The work that goes into this 45-50 degree is energy stored in the clutch, elastic potential energy to be exact. Because force is proportional to the displacement you are not loosing anything. It is a feel thing, I get that, but it is an extremely efficient hub. We had Duke University do a study on ours as well as other hubs on the market, I have some of the results back and it is located here. https://www.dropbox.com/s/cs2g251nz9...ndown.pdf?dl=0 These were the final top five of the hubs tested. I will post the rest of the results from Duke when they are finished and I believe they will be publishing these also. With that said, they among many other universities are using our hubs on their long milage vehicles simply for their efficiency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    Yeah, I realized my math was fubar on my ride into work this morning. If you don't notice it on the 177 but do on the 217, then wouldn't you say its an isolated issue with the 217? How much time do you have riding on the 177? My guess is the o.d. of the drive shell (where the sprags contact) might be a mil or two undersized, meaning the sprags need to stand up a little bit more before they lock into place.
    Similar amounts of time overall on 177 vs. 217. If I focus on the 177 I can feel it. I think the main difference is all the added mass of luggage on the 217 -- as soon as the trail points up that added ~40+ pounds means something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I think the main difference is all the added mass of luggage on the 217 -- as soon as the trail points up that added ~40+ pounds means something.
    Does the wind-up decrease proportionally when you try it with luggage removed? (You may need a steeper grade to test it vs the same force and gearing though, if traction still permits that.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Gerhardt View Post
    This feeling will be accentuated by the gear ratio.
    Thanks for chiming in, Jim. Direct communication with everyone at Onyx has been stellar.

    I am running a 26 x 44 on this bike. Still not *quite* low enough for the way and places we ride these bikes. When Wolftooth releases a 24t stainless ring to fit these cranks, I'll have one.

    Here's a vid that hopefully helps to explain what my words might not have thus far.


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    ^What I was hoping for is video of you going from a track stand/very low speed and a using a sudden burst of energy to propel yourself moving forward. Not trying to be rude, but standing on the pedals with the brakes applied isn't a very good representation of typical riding behavior.

    I run a 34x42t so I am guessing that is part of the reason I don't feel anything different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    ^What I was hoping for is video of you going from a track stand/very low speed and a using a sudden burst of energy to propel yourself moving forward. Not trying to be rude, but standing on the pedals with the brakes applied isn't a very good representation of typical riding behavior.

    I run a 34x42t so I am guessing that is part of the reason I don't feel anything different.
    Fear not, the video wasn't made for you.

    No video made without really, really expensive equipment is going to show anything like what you want to see when the subject/object is in motion. No way.

    I made the video not because it represents an actual riding situation, but because it shows what I feel when I am riding: sponginess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Thanks for chiming in, Jim. Direct communication with everyone at Onyx has been stellar.

    I am running a 26 x 44 on this bike. Still not *quite* low enough for the way and places we ride these bikes. When Wolftooth releases a 24t stainless ring to fit these cranks, I'll have one.

    Here's a vid that hopefully helps to explain what my words might not have thus far.

    ok thats not 1/8rev at the pedals. maybe 1/16. also at the cassette its at most, I dont know maybe 15 degrees. I think its a compound problem with thast whole bike though. Everything seems super flexy and spongy everything from the frame and the chain to the cranks or maybe its just me?

    I'm guessing fine tuning the tolerances inside the hub (and thickness of stock) can probably make the hub rock solid from the first lockup, just like my tp. When its locked its just locked.

    and of courswe the gear ratio will make it worse.

    Can you make another vid in the highest gear instead. So we have both extremes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Gerhardt View Post
    This feeling will be accentuated by the gear ratio.
    That explains why I haven't felt any of the issues on my singlespeed. If my chain is loose I'll feel the slack take up, but when properly tightened, the power feels like it's there instantly with no sponginess or lag.

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    What is the material that the sprags mate to when locking up and how thick/strong/stiff is that material? I mean does the sprags mate to something really solid (like several mm of hardened steel) or just alu and some thin steel shim? Or just alu? alu only has 1/3 the "stiffness" of steel so that could make stuff flexy imo in a situation like this.

    On a tp hub the freehub is the mating surface/inner race for the clutch. the freehub is hardened steel at least 50hrc and polished. And outsude the clutch to prevent it from distortion is the actual hub. as some of you may know its looks kinda wavy. that bigger diameter is what prevents the clutch from expanding. that alu is like 10mm thick. Thats what it takes to make it unflexy. and several, like 5mm of hardened steel on the other side.
    But it is rock solid though. so I'm not complaining.
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    I think there's a thick steel ring pressed into the hub shell in Onyx hubs. Sprags slide on its inner, polished and lubricated surface, and press on it when they lock up.

    With TP hubs, there's also a thick steel ring, except it's maybe not pressed, but screwed into hub shell against a stop. And it doesn't need to be polished because the needle roller cartridge is pressed into it.

    I think that ring stiffness and its ID tolerances are about the same for both Onyx and TP.

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    Thanks for the update Mike, that gearing will put you around 1/2 wheel turn per rev. of the cranks, massive amounts of torque going to the hub, not sure there is any other bike application that would resemble this. It definitely is going to be a feel thing, you can see in the video the energy releasing back into the cranks when you lift up, it has to or the hub would still be engaged. I'd say if this was a bigger market for these I'd make a different version that would eliminate this, but I'm not sure I'd ever recoup the costs. I have a few options to discuss with you to reduce this on this particular hub, give me a call when you get a chance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    What is the material that the sprags mate to when locking up and how thick/strong/stiff is that material? I mean does the sprags mate to something really solid (like several mm of hardened steel) or just alu and some thin steel shim? Or just alu? alu only has 1/3 the "stiffness" of steel so that could make stuff flexy imo in a situation like this.

    On a tp hub the freehub is the mating surface/inner race for the clutch. the freehub is hardened steel at least 50hrc and polished. And outsude the clutch to prevent it from distortion is the actual hub. as some of you may know its looks kinda wavy. that bigger diameter is what prevents the clutch from expanding. that alu is like 10mm thick. Thats what it takes to make it unflexy. and several, like 5mm of hardened steel on the other side.
    But it is rock solid though. so I'm not complaining.
    I think pretty much everyone here 'gets' that you like your TP hub. Cool. Now, move along?

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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Random Psycho View Post
    Does the wind-up decrease proportionally when you try it with luggage removed? (You may need a steeper grade to test it vs the same force and gearing though, if traction still permits that.)
    The feel is definitely less pronounced with less weight on the bike. But I can emphatically still feel it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Fear not, the video wasn't made for you.
    Ouch!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I think pretty much everyone here 'gets' that you like your TP hub. Cool. Now, move along?
    I'm not here to promote tp. but i still find it interesting comparing these 2 hubs since they are the 2 only real instant hubs. so I think my comparisons is valid in this thread. dont you?? and btw i'm trying to help you since you can't do that yourself. but yeah I don't need to post in this thread no more if thats what you want.


    ------------------------------
    question to onyx!

    Have you made any tests of what happens when the tolerances get big? or too small and so on? I'm guessing if the tolerances are too small the sprag will slip and then lock up but not very hard and if its too slack we have this phenomenon. I'm an ex machinist and I fully understand that a 0,01mm there and here makes a difference. Especially with these systems.
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    Jim,
    could the issue with this particular hub be explained with driver body and outer ring being near the opposite ends of their tolerance ranges? That is, each part alone is OK and it's just an unfortunate combination of them in that hub instance?

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    It is not an issue as in a failure, it is a function of the force applied to actuate the clutch into a position to propel the bike forward. Tolerance is in the .001mm range. Making them tighter will cause a lot of drag. There is a tolerance stack between the press/inner ring/clutch/driver. The only thing we don't manufacture is the clutch and I don't have the ability to measure that on an individual basis. They are spec'd for our tolerance range so that could be a contributor. We are talking an extreme low gear range, 26/44. Take a look at the video and see how much the small gear on the cassette moves relative to the large gear, this will put it in perspective.

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    That's actually how I expected that type of clutch to work. For drag free coasting, it needs to disengage just a hair for clearance, and when you pedal again it has to travel back that distance and then lock into place. Onyx says that it's supposed to be always engaged, which I believe is an exaggeration of saying it has minimum distance needed to clear for virtually instant engagement and still coast drag-free. Looks like the sprags slide in pretty easily in the service videos... I suspect what he does, that the clearance is a bit on the high/looser side.

    When you said it is loaded with 70-90 lbs of gear, I actually expected even lower gears, in case of hills and resistance such as wind and snow. It's more noticable in lower gears, but 26x44 isn't really any lower than what people run on their 30 lb skinny tire bikes not hauling cargo. I suspect other things, like this is the same diameter axle (14-16mm?) that's 217mm wide and still supported by the same # of bearings, just spread out. What if the axle is deforming? Heck, there could even be hub shell deformation from the spoke tension.
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    I'm not here to promote tp. but i still find it interesting comparing these 2 hubs since they are the 2 only real instant hubs. so I think my comparisons is valid in this thread. dont you?? and btw i'm trying to help you since you can't do that yourself. but yeah I don't need to post in this thread no more if thats what you want.


    ------------------------------
    question to onyx!

    Have you made any tests of what happens when the tolerances get big? or too small and so on? I'm guessing if the tolerances are too small the sprag will slip and then lock up but not very hard and if its too slack we have this phenomenon. I'm an ex machinist and I fully understand that a 0,01mm there and here makes a difference. Especially with these systems.
    Too loose = won't engage, too tight = won't get parts together. The individual sprags are positioned such that they ride on the driver, they do not rotate with the hub body. Once force is applied they need to move to a point in their geometry to transfer the torque to from the cassette to the hub body. Most of the time the force required to move the bike forward is less than the full engagement, of course you reach this point faster with a very low gear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    That's actually how I expected that type of clutch to work. For drag free coasting, it needs to disengage just a hair for clearance, and when you pedal again it has to travel back that distance and then lock into place. Onyx says that it's supposed to be always engaged, which I believe is an exaggeration of saying it has minimum distance needed to clear for virtually instant engagement and still coast drag-free. Looks like the sprags slide in pretty easily in the service videos... I suspect what he does, that the clearance is a bit on the high/looser side.

    When you said it is loaded with 70-90 lbs of gear, I actually expected even lower gears, in case of hills and resistance such as wind and snow. It's more noticable in lower gears, but 26x44 isn't really any lower than what people run on their 30 lb skinny tire bikes not hauling cargo. I suspect other things, like this is the same diameter axle (14-16mm?) that's 217mm wide and still supported by the same # of bearings, just spread out. What if the axle is deforming? Heck, there could even be hub shell deformation from the spoke tension.
    It has to stay engaged all the time or it could never engage. Minimal, yes, but there is always engagement. In the video you see the installation of the clutch into the hub, you would be correct in having a minimal clearance. What you don't see is that when we put the driver into the inside of the clutch, it must be twisted backwards in order to insert it into the mechanism. This is the other halve of the equation that engages the clutch to the driver and inner sleeve. I have clear hub shells and cut-a-ways to demonstrate this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Gerhardt View Post
    It is not an issue as in a failure, it is a function of the force applied to actuate the clutch into a position to propel the bike forward. Tolerance is in the .001mm range. Making them tighter will cause a lot of drag. There is a tolerance stack between the press/inner ring/clutch/driver. The only thing we don't manufacture is the clutch and I don't have the ability to measure that on an individual basis. They are spec'd for our tolerance range so that could be a contributor. We are talking an extreme low gear range, 26/44. Take a look at the video and see how much the small gear on the cassette moves relative to the large gear, this will put it in perspective.
    Do you mean 0.01 mm tolerances here really? I mean going to thousands (0,001mm) is affected by the temperature of the air. Yeah opening the door of a 20C deg workshop in the winter will cause the machines to display like 0,005-6-7 lower or higher, fluctuating.

    I have seen movement of 2 hundreds (0,02mm) with the machines standing still just the optical measuring system providing input. (steel contracting/expanding)

    I'd say the smallest possible measurable part being able to be manufactured in a lathe or mill today is like 0,01mm. to make stuff measuring lower than that you need a 20C clean room (temp controlled) and ypui also need to grind the thing to specs. IMO.

    Hell even machining like 10 peieces of something will cause the hardmetal cutter to shrink like 1-2 hundreds.

    and to even measure 0.001mm you need to use a mikrokator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johansson_Mikrokator

    If you are really working with 0.001mm tolerances (individual thousands) here i don't see how you can make money on this at all.

    not even the best mori seiki machines will give this performance since its purely physics.
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    car bone you are mistaken, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. Been in this game a long time and work with these tolerances on a day to day basis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Gerhardt View Post
    Too loose = won't engage, too tight = won't get parts together. The individual sprags are positioned such that they ride on the driver, they do not rotate with the hub body. Once force is applied they need to move to a point in their geometry to transfer the torque to from the cassette to the hub body. Most of the time the force required to move the bike forward is less than the full engagement, of course you reach this point faster with a very low gear.
    I see. so its an its/or situation here?

    But there have to be some mechanisms at work here. I see cassette as possible/ chain, 11/12sp sh1t/ cranks as light as possible carbon, and so forth.

    But we can all se that the actual cassette is moving while he's applying torque to the pedals. so something is at work here inside the hub too. otherwise the cassette wouldn't have moved.

    Is it possible that this very hub was out of ideal spec? Also could this be due to alu? and its flexibility? Or possiblöy the lenght of the hub causing a partial only engagement of the clutch? Maybe only half the clutch is really engaging due to weight/angle distortion?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Gerhardt View Post
    car bone you are mistaken, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. Been in this game a long time and work with these tolerances on a day to day basis.
    Ok I see. I'm not gonna argue. but really can you confirm single thousands of a mm tolerances??

    I rest my case if you say yes here no sh1t. And i also applaud you for making this precision happen. Its a hell of a feat imo. And its has to cost a sh1tload.
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    Ok I see. I'm not gonna argue. but really can you confirm single thousands of a mm tolerances??

    I rest my case if you say yes here no sh1t. And i also applaud you for making this precision happen. Its a hell of a feat imo. And its has to cost a sh1tload.
    The manufacturing tolerances are a lot closer than what you'd imagine them to be. I'm not going to post a drawing or anything but we machine in a very controlled environment.

  133. #133
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    I see. I'm used to measuring hundreds at the machine. and thats all there is, talking thermal expansion and all that.
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    Maybe he machines other things with the less than new tooling that requires less precision, only using the freshest cutting tools to make the drive related parts of the hubs.
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    I was told by someone familiar with Onyx that the Manufacturer of the sprag clutch units was very impressed that Onyx had developed a way to utilize their sprag clutch for this application - when others had tried and failed.
    I wonder if one of the reasons Onyx was successful was d/t figuring out how to create and manage the tolerances needed.

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    Well, considering the weight of the hubs, maybe they use harder/stiffer materials. Surfaces all related to the drive mech made of maraging steel cut with a wire EDM (the ring inside the hubshell, and on the freehub, installed using heat/cooling for a permanent interference fit)... who knows. Maybe we're too pleb to imagine what kind of operation he has. All I know, with my imagination, I have a hard time figuring out how he makes money too... I'm even more interested now.

    A decent quality ceramic bearing that rivals SKF steel ones aren't cheap, at least $40 per and there's 4-5 of them. Hubshell has to have at least $75 worth of machining time, considering the intricacy. Hmm, what else... maybe $200 covers the freehub, axle, end caps, and finishing. Not sure how much the sprags cost. That's pretty much asking price right there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Well, considering the weight of the hubs, maybe they use harder/stiffer materials. Surfaces all related to the drive mech made of maraging steel cut with a wire EDM (the ring inside the hubshell, and on the freehub, installed using heat/cooling for a permanent interference fit)... who knows. Maybe we're too pleb to imagine what kind of operation he has. All I know, with my imagination, I have a hard time figuring out how he makes money too... I'm even more interested now.

    A decent quality ceramic bearing that rivals SKF steel ones aren't cheap, at least $40 per and there's 4 of them. Hubshell has to have at least $75 worth of machining time, considering the intricacy. Hmm, what else...

    there is no exotic machining going on if you ask me.

    the most exotic maching i have seen so far is the inside of the tp hub flanges around the spoke holes. they are perfectly chamfered. I always wondered how they did that.

    edm is not really a high precision method, not for this purpose atleast. its a last ditch method for idiot designers imo. no one in their right mind will design parts that require edm. I have heard stories..

    You always shrink/expand stuff for a press fit imo. I do it about every week on beefy hydraulic tools. 200-250mm bushings or so. I "weld them out" before with a stick welder/mma. that is I'm adding molten steel (maximum thermal expanded steel) and when it cools it contracts, then i can pull the bushing out with a fork lift then I cool the new bushing with liquid nitro and put it in there. Its highly undramatic when I do it.
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    It's a relative thing, compared to something more basic like a CNC'd stem that sells for around $50-100. In the hubshell alone, he has 3 bearing seats, a groove for a retaining ring, a labyrinth seal for the freehub, 6 threaded rotor holes, 32 chamfered spoke holes, has to machine it all out from a billet slug... can't be removing large swaths of material due to the number of surfaces that have specified dimensions with tolerances to meet. I guess if you compare to CK, and call it even on bearings, Onyx has more going into it, without the tolerances coming into play.

    Again, press fits relative to other stuff in the bike industry. You can call it a joke and I'll sympathize; I'd take delrin shims over loose fitting metal-to-metal contact. Press fits on bikes are designed to be removed easily, perhaps with the help of a hammer. No getting stuff off a bike without getting a little more destructive than a few hammer taps if you did a real press fit. Have you seen how I9 puts together their drive ring nowadays? Not all in 1 piece like before. Cutting a thin ring out of a block of steel would be a $$$ inefficient use of material, with a lot going to scrap, even if they get the freehub's surface out of it too, which are the only 2 pieces he's responsible for crafting to extra tight tolerances.

    By perfect chamfers on your TP hub, do you mean that they perfectly match the head of the spokes when tensioned?

    Is the Onyx centerlock spline ring also made from steel? Wondering why its listed weight is so much more than the 6-bolt.
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  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    It's a relative thing, compared to something more basic like a CNC'd stem that sells for around $50-100. In the hubshell alone, he has 3 bearing seats, a groove for a retaining ring, a labyrinth seal for the freehub, 6 threaded rotor holes, 32 chamfered spoke holes, has to machine it all out from a billet slug... can't be removing large swaths of material due to the number of surfaces that have specified dimensions with tolerances to meet. I guess if you compare to CK, and call it even on bearings, Onyx has more going into it, without the tolerances coming into play.

    Again, press fits relative to other stuff in the bike industry. You can call it a joke and I'll sympathize; I'd take delrin shims over loose fitting metal-to-metal contact. Press fits on bikes are designed to be removed easily, perhaps with the help of a hammer. No getting stuff off a bike without getting a little more destructive than a few hammer taps if you did a real press fit. Have you seen how I9 puts together their drive ring nowadays? Not all in 1 piece like before. Cutting a thin ring out of a block of steel would be a $$$ inefficient use of material, with a lot going to scrap, even if they get the freehub's surface out of it too, which are the only 2 pieces he's responsible for crafting to extra tight tolerances.

    By perfect chamfers on your TP hub, do you mean that they perfectly match the head of the spokes when tensioned?
    they are perfectly and evenly chamfered around the edge of the spoke hole. on the inside of the flanges. Couldnt have done it better myself. Looks like they went in from outside the flange with a trianguler/conical cutter, smaller than the spoke hole obviusly and did it.

    yeah well all edm ive seen has been like low surface quality. I mean you are eroding material off with electricty and a carbon filament/wire in a bath. Its not a focused ion beam cutter were talking here imo. You probaby could do all hub parts ith edm though, it would just take like 100x more time to do it, and wont be any better than conventional machining, probaby worse. A good purpose for edm is for the stamp tools for coins, and thats it pretty much (if you ask me). wanna go exotic, go focused ion beam

    to make any sense out of this you have to know that you are chasing seconds per part in a cnc machine. productivity, nickles and dimes. time is money. I used to make parts that had 8h of active machining time beefy sh1t. we charged accordingly though, i think 400€ an hour (it was a very big 5-6 axis machine, prototype, one of few in that size).
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    if the cl spline is made from steel its awesome. but I have a feeling its not. too much hassle probably.
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    FWIW Hope makes their hub pawls with EDM.

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    I rode 6-7" of wet snow last night, felt like I was dragging a boat anchor....I could not detect any softness in the pedal stroke.

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    I have been following this thread all week but I have been too busy to participate so I will just toss my thoughts in now that I have some free time and a cold beer. I have been riding my Onyx hubs for several months now, on a variety of trails. I am entirely satisfied with them, and right now would immediately choose them again if I were building another set of wheels. And my buying experience was exceptional, especially from a small and growing company. So I have what some would call a raging fanboy view of them.

    I can say that the wind-up effect is real and easily noticeable if you are looking for it. And also something I never noticed until I did look for it. I remember the first mention of it in a post here, and I thought it sounded odd so I went over to my bike and I was surprised at how much I could get the cassette to wind up against the brakes. I don't believe it is much different from the video Mikesee posted, factoring in the difference in gearing. The hubs have such a solid feel in hand that it doesn't seem possible for them to have any flex. But then when I thought about how the sprag clutch works, it didn't seem so strange. When riding, the engagement feels as instant as the hubs make it feel when you are playing with them. There may be an inherent softness that more perceptive guys than me can feel, but I think that in most riding conditions it would be very difficult to notice. And I believe that practically all of the energy put into winding up the cassette in high effort bursts is returned the instant the burst tapers into normal effort.

    All that being said, I also believe Mikesee when he says that he can feel what he describes as a sponginess. His rig and his riding are definitely on the fringes of mountain biking and he is putting some unique loads into his hubs. The nature of the hubs is to be very smooth and quiet with low friction and excellent engagement. The nature of the engagement mechanism does not allow for the solid mechanical lockup of a pawl or toothed mechanism, it's not a bug it's a feature? For me it is a feature since it just adds to the deliciously smooth feel of the wheelset. And maybe it helps protect the weaker parts of the drivetrain from shock loads. But maybe for Mikesee it is a bug since he is diving much deeper into the wind-up on a regular basis than most people ever will and he definitely feels it. From my experience, these hubs are far and away the best I have ever ridden and I no longer spend any time worrying about when my next broken hub will occur. I have rapidly developed the confidence in their strength and reliability that I hoped for from my research and conversation with Jim before purchase. They feel exactly as smooth and tight as day one and have given me zero concerns. Like all good parts, they fade into the bike and out of mind while riding. I do realize that I will need to put many more miles on them before they truly earn all of that high regard I am giving them now. But expectations are high. I hope Mikesee can find a solution to his concerns. From my understandings of the hub's strength based on what Jim told me about them and my experience with them, I don't think the wind-up is indicative of weakness. And in my riding it has zero negative impact on how they ride. But it may not be something that Mikesee can get beyond with his unique riding conditions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VonFalkenhausen View Post
    ...and he definitely feels it.
    This is really the crux. It feels odd, disconcerting, not at all like anything I've ever felt before. And I'm a (somewhat) old dog that's leery of the new and unproven.

    I understand (albeit on a basic level) that what's happening is not a durability issue. It may take some time for me to wrap my brain around that and truly trust it enough for where this bike takes me. One reason for that is that the windup manifests itself in the spokes and nips -- I can literally hear them creaking and groaning as I diesel my overloaded pig uphill. Hard to ignore that, harder still to tell myself that it's all fine.

    Jim is sending some oversized clutches for me to attempt to install. If they fit they will likely minimize the sponginess I'm feeling. If they don't he has offered to machine a slightly oversized driver to install in the current clutches. Either way it seems this problem is unique to this situation (one-off 217mm hub, uber-low gearing, heavy loads, pernickety human interface) and will be minimized shortly.

    Glass half-full perspective: Perhaps this sponginess will be all the rage in a few years, as the less harsh power transfer means less tire slip/spin on steep, scratchy climbs. You heard it here first, although Specialized will no doubt contend that and then sue everybody...

  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    One reason for that is that the windup manifests itself in the spokes and nips -- I can literally hear them creaking and groaning as I diesel my overloaded pig uphill. Hard to ignore that, harder still to tell myself that it's all fine.
    But imagine if all else being the same, there was no wind-up. Hub flanges, spokes and the rim would still see the same forces that have to be there to move the bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Random Psycho View Post
    But imagine if all else being the same, there was no wind-up. Hub flanges, spokes and the rim would still see the same forces that have to be there to move the bike.
    This was my first thought, too. I think if anything, this situation would be improved with the hub smoothing out the application of torque through the wheel. And ultimately, that is what is happening here, the hub is taking the edge off of the power impulses from the rider, usually but in some cases not always imperceptibly. And sponginess is maybe not the best way to describe this effect because it could imply inefficiency, which is not the case.

    This same function is often designed into drivetrains outside of the cycling world, for example most automotive clutch discs have small coil springs set into them for smoothing out clutch take-up and power pulses from the engine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I understand (albeit on a basic level) that what's happening is not a durability issue. It may take some time for me to wrap my brain around that and truly trust it enough for where this bike takes me.
    The strength of the sprag clutch hub design was one of the primary factors in my purchase, I have had enough problems with traditional hub designs over the years to be willing to buy myself out of worrying about it anymore. I originally was going to go with Chris King, but the silence of the Onyx Racing and TP Stealth designs had always been appealing and upon further review while waiting for my King hubs to become available I ended up going with Onyx.

    I had an interesting conversation with Jim as part of my purchase decision and durability was the focus of my questions. As I recall, and I hope Jim corrects me if I am getting any of this wrong, the hubs were tested under loads well beyond what a human cyclist could deliver, up until failure. Except they don't fail in the traditional sense in that the drive mechanism doesn't break, but at some point it will slip. And after the torque overload is removed, the hub regains full function. I can't think of another hub, with the possible exception of TP, that could survive being loaded to that point without being destroyed. Now maybe there are hubs that could handle the torque that an Onyx will slip at without breaking, but those hubs could not handle going beyond their yield point and survive like the Onyx. And even when exploring the wind-up characteristic by loading the drivetrain against the brakes, there was never a hint of slippage. I imagine the torque required to reach this point is very high indeed. And this slippage is very likely to be more pleasant than breaking a chain.

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    I spoke with Jim on the phone regarding things I might expect from my 197mm hub, and it is obv that he is very passionate about his products. I think about how far out of his way Jim went to create a custom hub for a customer, and how that customer found it appropriate to post negative reviews before getting everything sorted out with Onyx. I don't know if this is equivalent to a slap in the face, but its close.

    I applaud Mikesee for pushing the limits of fat biking and what can be done with the latest and greatest prototype gear, and his adventures are very inspirational. But the last few pages of this thread are the exact reason manufacturers don't want to put themselves out there regarding new gear w/o proper testing. Up until this point there have been zero negative reviews regarding the performance of any mainstream products from Onyx , but now that an untested/unproven prototype has been into use a negative cloud has been cast upon onyx.

    Maybe Jim should have make Mike sign a non-disclosure agreement, maybe he should have left him hanging w/o a hub at all. But Jim helped make this bike happen, and what does he get in return? Not trying to be a jerk, but honestly this is the worst possible way to reward someone for their hard work, especially when they will go out of their way regardless of additional costs to help make it right.

    End rant/

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    I think about how far out of his way Jim went to create a custom hub for a customer, and how that customer found it appropriate to post negative reviews before getting everything sorted out with Onyx. I don't know if this is equivalent to a slap in the face, but its close.
    ..........
    End rant/
    I disagree

    Thread: Onyx Racing Hubs - Sprag Clutch vs other types of Engagement

    The topic seems pretty relevant to this thread^

    The windup seems to be inherent to the design and is no big deal, and maybe even a bonus for some. Possibly not so good for others on a fully loaded fat bike. I didn't read it as a negative review, more of a ride report. Maybe I missed some posts?

  150. #150
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    The designed windup certainly doesn't prevent me from wanting an Onyx hub badly. Not going to feel it anyway as my gear ratios don't go below 1.1 (and usually it's 2.0 or near).

    My only wishes would be a 6061 forged (then machined where needed) shell instead of 7075 fully machined one; and maybe bolts a-la Paul WORD for the bolt-up version, so there's a smooth piece going in dropouts, preventing wear in case the axle slips against dropout under load.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    I spoke with Jim on the phone regarding things I might expect from my 197mm hub, and it is obv that he is very passionate about his products. I think about how far out of his way Jim went to create a custom hub for a customer, and how that customer found it appropriate to post negative reviews before getting everything sorted out with Onyx. I don't know if this is equivalent to a slap in the face, but its close.

    I applaud Mikesee for pushing the limits of fat biking and what can be done with the latest and greatest prototype gear, and his adventures are very inspirational. But the last few pages of this thread are the exact reason manufacturers don't want to put themselves out there regarding new gear w/o proper testing. Up until this point there have been zero negative reviews regarding the performance of any mainstream products from Onyx , but now that an untested/unproven prototype has been into use a negative cloud has been cast upon onyx.

    Maybe Jim should have make Mike sign a non-disclosure agreement, maybe he should have left him hanging w/o a hub at all. But Jim helped make this bike happen, and what does he get in return? Not trying to be a jerk, but honestly this is the worst possible way to reward someone for their hard work, especially when they will go out of their way regardless of additional costs to help make it right.

    End rant/
    Holy handwringing, Batman.

    Nowhere in this thread has Onyx been disparaged by me. At every step along the way I have been up-front that this is a 'feel thing', and that the hub merely presented a different reality from the one I expected. Has it failed? No. Have I suggested that it did? No.

    Jim and I talked on the phone a few days ago. The conversation was amicable, I suppose because he possesses reading comprehension abilities greater than those of the average MTBR poster. If he was bothered by anything written here by me, he didn't mention it. His willingness to send oversized sprags and (potentially) machine and ship a new driver seem evidence of such.

    I've built many Onyx hubs to date for my customers. I will build many more.

  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I've built many Onyx hubs to date for my customers. I will build many more.
    Hehe so I can officially envy you now :-p

    Around here it's most likely the first and the only Onyx I'll get to build in the foreseeable future will be my own, just like it is with TP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Random Psycho View Post
    Hehe so I can officially envy you now :-p

    Around here it's most likely the first and the only Onyx I'll get to build in the foreseeable future will be my own, just like it is with TP.
    Onyx will grow as a result of feedback from customers, this is all part of growing pains. I now know 16 people that have Onyx hubs in DE, many more to come!!

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    They're becoming pretty popular here. They and DT are my LBS's go-to hubs.

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    Down with the ratchets! Viva la silent clutch revolución!

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    Yesterday, rode my "other" bike with 240s hub. Wow, after riding my Onyx rear for so long, the 240s felt awful. Constantly aware of the ratchet sound, and the 36t engagement felt, well, archaic. I didn't notice so much going up to the Onyx, yes, I liked the noiseless motion, and the engagement, but the real test was going back to the traditional hub.
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  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemind View Post
    Yesterday, rode my "other" bike with 240s hub. Wow, after riding my Onyx rear for so long, the 240s felt awful. Constantly aware of the ratchet sound, and the 36t engagement felt, well, archaic. I didn't notice so much going up to the Onyx, yes, I liked the noiseless motion, and the engagement, but the real test was going back to the traditional hub.
    I love when people say that notice absolutely no difference between riding an Onyx hub and riding an 18 POE DT Swiss
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    Quote Originally Posted by dustyduke22 View Post
    I love when people say that notice absolutely no difference between riding an Onyx hub and riding an 18 POE DT Swiss
    A difference in noise, when coasting?

    Absolutely.

    Otherwise? Nada.

    I'm glad that the engagement snobs have another quality option in Onyx. I'm also glad I'm not afflicted with that psychological issue...

    P.S. And I'll gladly take all of those worthless old 240s hubs off of people's hands, to save them from excess garage clutter...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    A difference in noise, when coasting?

    Absolutely.

    Otherwise? Nada.

    I'm glad that the engagement snobs have another quality option in Onyx. I'm also glad I'm not afflicted with that psychological issue...

    P.S. And I'll gladly take all of those worthless old 240s hubs off of people's hands, to save them from excess garage clutter...
    I can't see how you can say that you notice no difference in engagement between a high POE hub and a low POE hub a with a straight face.



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    Quote Originally Posted by dustyduke22 View Post
    I can't see how you can say that you notice no difference in engagement between a high POE hub and a low POE hub a with a straight face.
    I'm actually laughing when I say it, but I'm also 100% serious about the fact. Even when looking for it I just don't notice it. And I think it's funny, in a cute sort of way, that people like to get so worked up about it.

    I once went and visited a friend that has some very, very technical trails in his backyard. He's very proud of them, and loves to show people around. He told me in no uncertain terms that I would 'get destroyed' and 'have my lunch eaten' by these trails if I showed up with a low POE hub.

    Knowing that POE has just never mattered, I made a note of his hype but said nothing.

    We spent 5+ hours out on his trails that day, playing and sessioning and rock crawling to our heart's content. In the end he made a few moves I didn't, and I made a few he didn't. More or less a draw. He's stronger than I, but more risk averse. The moves that he made that I couldn't were due to his strength. The ones that I made that he didn't were largely because I was willing to commit to something riskier. Hub engagement simply had no part in it.

    When I asked him, later, where the trails were that were going to "destroy" me, he just shook his head and said he'd never seen anyone do so well on such a 'crappy' (<-his actual word) hub.

    And, just as before, I simply didn't understand the hype. I can see a *minor* benefit for gate starts, but beyond that engagement is just something for people to talk about, and it makes no real difference on the trail.

  161. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by dustyduke22 View Post
    I can't see how you can say that you notice no difference in engagement between a high POE hub and a low POE hub a with a straight face.
    I've used 54t, 36t, and 18t Star Ratchets in my DT hubs. Used other, higher engagement hubs as well (King, etc).

    Don't notice any difference besides the pitch/frequency.

    I will also take your old-tech, worthless, low-POE DT 240s off of you. I'll even pay shipping.
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  162. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I'm actually laughing when I say it, but I'm also 100% serious about the fact. Even when looking for it I just don't notice it. And I think it's funny, in a cute sort of way, that people like to get so worked up about it.

    I once went and visited a friend that has some very, very technical trails in his backyard. He's very proud of them, and loves to show people around. He told me in no uncertain terms that I would 'get destroyed' and 'have my lunch eaten' by these trails if I showed up with a low POE hub.

    Knowing that POE has just never mattered, I made a note of his hype but said nothing.

    We spent 5+ hours out on his trails that day, playing and sessioning and rock crawling to our heart's content. In the end he made a few moves I didn't, and I made a few he didn't. More or less a draw. He's stronger than I, but more risk averse. The moves that he made that I couldn't were due to his strength. The ones that I made that he didn't were largely because I was willing to commit to something riskier. Hub engagement simply had no part in it.

    When I asked him, later, where the trails were that were going to "destroy" me, he just shook his head and said he'd never seen anyone do so well on such a 'crappy' (<-his actual word) hub.

    And, just as before, I simply didn't understand the hype. I can see a *minor* benefit for gate starts, but beyond that engagement is just something for people to talk about, and it makes no real difference on the trail.
    I think we will have to agree to disagree on this point. No need rehashing our different views for pages

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  163. #163
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    What is the difference between the HyperGlide and regular Onyx mountain bike hubs?

    Ed.

    What does Onyx mean by "Widget" on the order menu?

  164. #164
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    ^^^ I have thought the same...HyperGlide and regular. The Onyx Web site leaves something to be desired when it comes to providing good product description and information.

    I have always thought of the Widgets as end caps, but that might not be correct.
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  165. #165
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    HyperGlide marked hubs are for Shimano cassettes, and for SRAM XD ones they should be marked XD I guess.

    I saw the drive side nut that locks the axle to the driver body bearing's inner race being called "the widget" in one of Onyx maintenance videos.

  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Random Psycho View Post
    HyperGlide marked hubs are for Shimano cassettes, and for SRAM XD ones they should be marked XD I guess.
    I don't know if I saw it noted anywhere, but if you are using a 10spd cassette with an Onyx hub you NEED a 1.8mm spacer between your largest cog and the fh body for it to work correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by J. Random Psycho View Post
    I saw the drive side nut that locks the axle to the driver body bearing's inner race being called "the widget" in one of Onyx maintenance videos.
    I am "guessing" they might not have had their naming convention dialed in when they made the videos. It was clear the person in the video was being coached, and really didn't know much about the correct procedures.
    Last edited by jonshonda; 04-01-2016 at 01:46 PM.

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    Onyx MTB freehubs are 11 speed compatible. For the two frames with conventional 10mm dropouts I've installed a MTB Onyx non-XD on, Shimano 10speed cassettes need a 2.8mm spacer, SRAM a 1.8mm spacer. Both manufacturer's cassettes had room for an additional 1mm worth of spacer(s).

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    Onyx sent out a quick response.

    Didn't realize HG was the free hub body. Was curious if it had to do with internals.

    Interesting that a shop I was in yesterday had a super old yet new Shimano Silent Clutch rear hub in the display case. And now this

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    We have numerous free hub bodies available (8-currently), depending on the hub model. The four categories they all fall into are: Shimano-HG (Hyper-Glide Compatible), SRAM-XD (XD Compatible), Campagnolo 11-Speed, and a Onyx Proprietary one for our 20mm rear BMX hub. I'm sure you will hear these terms used in may different ways, I even been asked if we make Shimano XD free hub bodies, and no we don't, lol.

    We do refer to the drive side nut, non-drive side spacers and cinch-nuts as widgets. We do this because they are offered in many different colors. Currently our "widgets" are available in Black, Red, Blue, Gold, Purple, Pink, Polished, Orange and Green. When our website is a little further along, this will be shown graphically to avoid confusion.

    Yes, our video link we've sent to a few people was done on the fly, impromptu at best. We are working on our videos weekly and posting them to our YouTube channel, which a link is available on the homepage of our website. www.onyxrp.com

    All our MTB & Road Shimano-HG free hub bodies are 11-Speed Spaced and are marked accordingly. We did this specifically to help future proof the hub compatibility for cassettes that will have more than 11-speeds. So if you use a 10-speed spaced cassette, like all 11-speed MTB cassettes currently are, you will need to use a 1.85mm spacer behind the cassette to get the correct spacing. It is different I know, but during our design phase we had the option to make a few small adjustments that would allow this feature to be added. We have been recently adding a sticker and a spacer to all of these free hubs indicating this, even though the free hub body is clearly marked "11-Speed".

  170. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by VonFalkenhausen View Post
    I have been following this thread all week but I have been too busy to participate so I will just toss my thoughts in now that I have some free time and a cold beer. I have been riding my Onyx hubs for several months now, on a variety of trails. I am entirely satisfied with them, and right now would immediately choose them again if I were building another set of wheels. And my buying experience was exceptional, especially from a small and growing company. So I have what some would call a raging fanboy view of them.

    I can say that the wind-up effect is real and easily noticeable if you are looking for it. And also something I never noticed until I did look for it. I remember the first mention of it in a post here, and I thought it sounded odd so I went over to my bike and I was surprised at how much I could get the cassette to wind up against the brakes. I don't believe it is much different from the video Mikesee posted, factoring in the difference in gearing. The hubs have such a solid feel in hand that it doesn't seem possible for them to have any flex. But then when I thought about how the sprag clutch works, it didn't seem so strange. When riding, the engagement feels as instant as the hubs make it feel when you are playing with them. There may be an inherent softness that more perceptive guys than me can feel, but I think that in most riding conditions it would be very difficult to notice. And I believe that practically all of the energy put into winding up the cassette in high effort bursts is returned the instant the burst tapers into normal effort.

    All that being said, I also believe Mikesee when he says that he can feel what he describes as a sponginess. His rig and his riding are definitely on the fringes of mountain biking and he is putting some unique loads into his hubs. The nature of the hubs is to be very smooth and quiet with low friction and excellent engagement. The nature of the engagement mechanism does not allow for the solid mechanical lockup of a pawl or toothed mechanism, it's not a bug it's a feature? For me it is a feature since it just adds to the deliciously smooth feel of the wheelset. And maybe it helps protect the weaker parts of the drivetrain from shock loads. But maybe for Mikesee it is a bug since he is diving much deeper into the wind-up on a regular basis than most people ever will and he definitely feels it. From my experience, these hubs are far and away the best I have ever ridden and I no longer spend any time worrying about when my next broken hub will occur. I have rapidly developed the confidence in their strength and reliability that I hoped for from my research and conversation with Jim before purchase. They feel exactly as smooth and tight as day one and have given me zero concerns. Like all good parts, they fade into the bike and out of mind while riding. I do realize that I will need to put many more miles on them before they truly earn all of that high regard I am giving them now. But expectations are high. I hope Mikesee can find a solution to his concerns. From my understandings of the hub's strength based on what Jim told me about them and my experience with them, I don't think the wind-up is indicative of weakness. And in my riding it has zero negative impact on how they ride. But it may not be something that Mikesee can get beyond with his unique riding conditions.
    this actually disappoints me a little. i was under the impression that these would be as solid as the tp's but newer better tech, maybe more long lasting?? But it seems its isn't so. It seems these are not as solid as the 10-15yo tp's. I have the tp's and they are rock solid. Its an industrial clutch that has been made for ages. Only torque limiting feature is how well you sheild it with metal all round. unshielded in air i think it takes 30nm or so but beef it up it takes much more.

    I've had my tp's apart now several times just for fun and for that hub to even budge a single degree after engagement it means my hub shell has exploded. and it has not exploded yet. I'm only 70kg though. I run a 42 up front and a 11-30 out back. if yoy want to know.

    the tp's are 0,fukn 0% spongy.
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  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    this actually disappoints me a little. i was under the impression that these would be as solid as the tp's but newer better tech, maybe more long lasting?? But it seems its isn't so.
    In order to arrive at this conclusion you have either buried your head in the sand, or you lack reading comprehension, or you simply didn't read but chose to post this to feel better about your purchase.

    All of which says more about you than Onyx.

  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    In order to arrive at this conclusion you have either buried your head in the sand, or you lack reading comprehension, or you simply didn't read but chose to post this to feel better about your purchase.

    All of which says more about you than Onyx.
    I have read the whole thread yes!

    I dont give a f about my "purchase"! I can afford my hub. i bought it about 8 years ago. I dont give f about money. they come, they go. I spend it. so yes I dont give a fuk about money.
    and no i neither lack reading comprehension or englicz comprehension at all.


    I feel much better now?
    do you feel better?

    I'm actually listening to modern talking now, lol.

    good luck dude. drench yourself in blow. and go from there.
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  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    this actually disappoints me a little. i was under the impression that these would be as solid as the tp's but newer better tech, maybe more long lasting?? But it seems its isn't so. It seems these are not as solid as the 10-15yo tp's. I have the tp's and they are rock solid. Its an industrial clutch that has been made for ages. Only torque limiting feature is how well you sheild it with metal all round. unshielded in air i think it takes 30nm or so but beef it up it takes much more.

    I've had my tp's apart now several times just for fun and for that hub to even budge a single degree after engagement it means my hub shell has exploded. and it has not exploded yet. I'm only 70kg though. I run a 42 up front and a 11-30 out back. if yoy want to know.

    the tp's are 0,fukn 0% spongy.
    I definitely would not describe my Onyx Racing hub as spongy, I thought I made that clear. Not my description, and it was only used by one guy in a very unique situation. I first saw TP hubs many years ago at Interbike when they were new, and I thought they were interesting then but it was Onyx that finally got me to come off of my Chris King lust. I believe that the sprags are a superior design and I am completely satisfied with the performance of my hubs. Sprags are well established technology and are essentially an evolution of the roller clutch. From what I have seen, the Onyx hubs have less freehub drag than the TP hubs, and probably any other hub on the market, they are by far the smoothest and most friction-free hubs I have seen. Mine remain just as smooth and free as when new, and just as solid feeling. It is not easy to describe but it is an interesting sensation, how solid and yet free-spinning these things are. Any wind-up is simply a characteristic of the hubs, and it is truly unnoticeable in normal riding. It is quite possible that it is a positive feature although I think it is mostly a non-issue since I didn't even realize it existed until reading about it and checking for myself on my own bike. I am a big guy and I can push pretty damn hard and these are the best feeling hubs I have ever used.

    I would be interested to see your TP hub put to the same wind-up test that Mikesee posted, not to prove anything but just to see if they also have any wind-up, trust me it is possible for a hub to be and feel solid and still have that characteristic. In holding the hubs and playing with them on the stand, you would never even think about any wind-up, the engagement just feels spooky fast and solid. To me it is the same on the trail. It wouldn't change my impression of TP either way, I think they are also a very good product but obviously I am an Onyx fan. But I am curious if it is a characteristic of the general type of hub or the specific type of clutch mechanism, since in the big picture TP and Onyx seem to have more in common than they are different. Although this test might be deceptive with your gear setup, you are geared pretty high and that doesn't give you anything close to the torque multiplication that Mikesee's rig can generate.

  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    ...for that hub to even budge a single degree after engagement it means my hub shell has exploded.
    The thing about Onyx' design is that it won't explode - it'll slip to release the torque, then as torque is reapplied, it'll go back about its business unscathed. Granted that would be at torque levels above what a human could generate...

  175. #175
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    That little bit of 'give' from the sprags engaging results in better climbing traction. At least, that's my feel of what's going on. Instead of that normal hard engagement of a regular hub, this instant sprag engagement feels 'damped' (for lack of a better word). This will be more noticeable in the lower, higher torque gears.

    The best description I can think of is a clutch on a dirtbike. If you let the clutch out fast, that would be like a regular hub engagement. If you feather the clutch, that would be like an Onyx hub. Does that makes sense?

    If you haven't tried one, do it. It won't make you faster or really even ride better. But for pure feel and enjoyment, it checks all the boxes.

  176. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derp View Post
    That little bit of 'give' from the sprags engaging results in better climbing traction. At least, that's my feel of what's going on. Instead of that normal hard engagement of a regular hub, this instant sprag engagement feels 'damped' (for lack of a better word). This will be more noticeable in the lower, higher torque gears.

    The best description I can think of is a clutch on a dirtbike. If you let the clutch out fast, that would be like a regular hub engagement. If you feather the clutch, that would be like an Onyx hub. Does that makes sense?

    If you haven't tried one, do it. It won't make you faster or really even ride better. But for pure feel and enjoyment, it checks all the boxes.
    after reading all this I was beginning to wonder if I made the right decision buying a set of onyx hubs ... Guess I will know in the next couple weeks as they are sitting in the box

  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derp View Post
    That little bit of 'give' from the sprags engaging results in better climbing traction. At least, that's my feel of what's going on. Instead of that normal hard engagement of a regular hub, this instant sprag engagement feels 'damped' (for lack of a better word). This will be more noticeable in the lower, higher torque gears.

    The best description I can think of is a clutch on a dirtbike. If you let the clutch out fast, that would be like a regular hub engagement. If you feather the clutch, that would be like an Onyx hub. Does that makes sense?

    If you haven't tried one, do it. It won't make you faster or really even ride better. But for pure feel and enjoyment, it checks all the boxes.
    You are right, there should be a better word to describe this characteristic. Damped is better than spongy, but still not quite right. I get your comparison with a dirtbike clutch, although there is substantial energy lost in that type of clutch. Any energy loss in Onyx's application of a sprag clutch would be so tiny as to be unmeasurable and certainly more than made up for by the excellent low-friction performance of hub overall and particularly the freehub in coasting.

    I personally can't really notice the effect while riding other than the hubs just plain feel great. But I find your comment on climbing traction to be interesting, my climbing prowess has been improved by my wheelset, which I attributed to the rims and tires but any smoothing of power pulses certainly isn't hurting traction.

    I have mentioned this before, but automotive clutch designers go to great effort to design a spring into clutch disks to smooth out power impulses that also conserves rotational energy, maybe Onyx has an extra little feature that while unintentional is beneficial? Bicycles definitely have more uneven power pulses than IC engines, except for maybe Harleys. As an Onyx customer who has drank the Kool-Aide I may have motivation to avoid finding fault with my hubs, but I am generally critical where appropriate and I remain very happy with my purchase. My next bike will definitely be rolling on Onyx Racing hubs, too.

  178. #178
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    My buddy and I joke about this thread every time we trade wheels or I have my fat bike out. We now reference this thread every time a tricky section comes up and I might not clear it! "Better spool up that rear hub", or "did that hub just make you overshoot that corner".

    imho lots of drama for something that isn't an issue. ymmv.

  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    My buddy and I joke about this thread every time we trade wheels or I have my fat bike out. We now reference this thread every time a tricky section comes up and I might not clear it! "Better spool up that rear hub", or "did that hub just make you overshoot that corner".

    imho lots of drama for something that isn't an issue. ymmv.
    Did you also know that the new "boost" hubs are not just a new spacing standard? They literally have a built in "boost" feature that gives you extra umph. Only available from Onyx.
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  180. #180
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    So. Because the sprags are always engaged, backpedaling will cause wheel spin? Is this normal?

    It's always bothered me that I can backspin a WTB Laserlight and no wheel spin occurs. Not the case w/ the Onyx hub. The WTB will also out spin the onyx.

  181. #181
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    Backpedaling causes sprags to slip with very little friction, while staying engaged, that's the thing.

  182. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by natron5000 View Post
    So. Because the sprags are always engaged, backpedaling will cause wheel spin? Is this normal?

    It's always bothered me that I can backspin a WTB Laserlight and no wheel spin occurs. Not the case w/ the Onyx hub. The WTB will also out spin the onyx.
    You are mistaken. Out of the box brand new the Onyx has outspun any other hub I have ever tried. Once they are broke in, it's not even a fair spin off

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  184. #184
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    The hub has about 1,200 miles on it. It would backspin the wheel at 0 miles.

  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by natron5000 View Post
    The hub has about 1,200 miles on it. It would backspin the wheel at 0 miles.
    I would consider a little backspin normal an any hub. Some more than others.

    You will see more of an effect with lighter rims and tires like you have when compared to a heavy rim and tires.

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  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    My buddy and I joke about this thread every time we trade wheels or I have my fat bike out. We now reference this thread every time a tricky section comes up and I might not clear it! "Better spool up that rear hub", or "did that hub just make you overshoot that corner".

    imho lots of drama for something that isn't an issue. ymmv.
    lol
    'bout right
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    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by dustyduke22 View Post
    I would consider a little backspin normal an any hub.
    My Onyx has so much backspin I can actually ride up hills backwards. I am surprised they don't list this feature on their website.

    For serious though...why the f4ck would it bother you enough to take the time to create a video, post it on youtube, and link it here?

  188. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    My Onyx has so much backspin I can actually ride up hills backwards. I am surprised they don't list this feature on their website.

    For serious though...why the f4ck would it bother you enough to take the time to create a video, post it on youtube, and link it here?
    Because I may have a bad hub.

  189. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    For serious though...why the f4ck would it bother you enough to take the time to create a video, post it on youtube, and link it here?
    That's drag... something I thought the lack of was a selling point for these hubs. Isn't the huge weight penalty a trade-off for something good?
    I just checked the two bikes I have in my office and neither my Hope SS nor my Ultegra hub do that.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
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  190. #190
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    FYI, the hub has a bearing preload cinch nut. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g5J2lPi5KQ

    Setting preload correctly reduces freehub drag. Too much preload will bind it.

  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillDancer View Post
    FYI, the hub has a bearing preload cinch nut. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g5J2lPi5KQ

    Setting preload correctly reduces freehub drag. Too much preload will bind it.
    Yeah...
    3rd post on this thread.

  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by natron5000 View Post
    Yeah...
    3rd post on this thread.
    So you have adjusted the preload on the bearings, and have the correct grease/amount of grease in the bearings and on the sprags, and you have contacted Onyx, and there is no solution?

    When coasting in the stand, does it spin longer than your other hubs?

  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by natron5000 View Post
    ...I have the drive side cap threaded on finger tight...
    Quote Originally Posted by HillDancer View Post
    FYI, the hub has a bearing preload cinch nut...
    Quote Originally Posted by natron5000 View Post
    Yeah...
    3rd post on this thread.
    Remove the NDS end cap, insert an awl, rod, or hex key through the holes on the end of the axle, tighten the DS end nut with 19mm socket (thin wall deepset preferred) to 35 lb inch/4Nm, while holding the axle with securing rod. Loosen the pinch bolt in the cinch nut with 2.5mm hex, rotate cinch nut counter clockwise to loosen or clockwise to tighten. If the NDS end cup resists removal in the first step, unscrew the DS nut, lightly tap the axle through & remove, loosen cinch nut & unscrew to push end cap off. Use this opportunity to clean & lightly grease contact surfaces.

    After adjusting bearing pre-load on my Onyx hub, I back pedal my crank as performed in the video, the wheel begins to back spin, then rotates forward as sealant re-pools in the tire, all the while the crank reverse rotates merrily along. In my opinion the back spin in the video doesn't look so bad, especially compared to my bushing supported Mavic hubs.

  194. #194
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    I've adjusted the preload and the hub internals are spotless. I have not touched the sprag assembly, but the lube looks clean. I have had onyx look at the hub, they replaced the driver and one of the bearings. They also adjusted the pre-load. I've compared the onyx spin to a dt240s, a wtb laserlight, a novatec d772, and a bont xxx. They all seam to spin better. Each time I pull the end cap off a dark grey oil is eaking out of the bearing seal. I think the tolerances are a bit tight, and causing the bearing to deform once it's pressed into the shell. Maybe the sprag portion of the shell is also a little tight? I love the silent / infinite engagement. But the drag....

  195. #195
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    natron5000, give me a call and I'll see what's going on here. 320-295-7652 and ask for Jim.

    Quote Originally Posted by natron5000 View Post
    I've adjusted the preload and the hub internals are spotless. I have not touched the sprag assembly, but the lube looks clean. I have had onyx look at the hub, they replaced the driver and one of the bearings. They also adjusted the pre-load. I've compared the onyx spin to a dt240s, a wtb laserlight, a novatec d772, and a bont xxx. They all seam to spin better. Each time I pull the end cap off a dark grey oil is eaking out of the bearing seal. I think the tolerances are a bit tight, and causing the bearing to deform once it's pressed into the shell. Maybe the sprag portion of the shell is also a little tight? I love the silent / infinite engagement. But the drag....

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    I was adjusting the pre-load off the bike. (S/b done on the bike - operator error....)
    Jim you're a stand up guy w/ an amazing product.

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    ^Interesting.

  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by natron5000 View Post
    I was adjusting the pre-load off the bike. (S/b done on the bike - operator error....)
    Jim you're a stand up guy w/ an amazing product.
    Like how you leave a little play in a cup-and-cone hub when adjusted off the bike to account for compression by the skewer... makes sense.
    Thanks for following up.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Like how you leave a little play in a cup-and-cone hub when adjusted off the bike to account for compression by the skewer... makes sense.
    Thanks for following up.
    Yep. As soon as I cranked down on my axle, I was probably side loading the outer bearings.

  200. #200
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    i can't tell from searching websites. what is the freehub body made of? i'm assuming it's stainless or similar given the high end nature of this hub. mar free?

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