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  1. #1
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    Maxxis Minion DHF vs DHR

    I’m ready to switch to tubeless but am stuck on tires. I’m pretty much sold on the Maxxis Minion tires but am having trouble figuring out the difference between the DHF/DHR tires.

    I assumed the DHF is “Downhill Front” while the DHR is “Downhill Rear”. On the surface this seems like a no-brained: but the DHF for the front wheel and the DHR for the rear. But they have different tread patterns. So I’m stuck.

    Ia there something I’m missing here. It’s my natural instinct to buy buy tires with matching tread patterns. That being said, what would be the harm in running a front tire design on the rear?

    as always, any help is greatly appreciated.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Maxxis Minion DHF vs DHR-9e1d3d0a-1a1d-42e6-b75a-2c20767b0822.jpeg  

    Maxxis Minion DHF vs DHR-e345cc05-e69a-4dea-895e-bdea167ec927.jpeg  


  2. #2
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    No real harm. Maybe a little more wear and rolling resistance. Probably best explained from the descriptions:

    The Minion DHF is the standard by which all other downhill tires are measured. The DHF incorporates ramped knobs for low rolling resistance and channel-cut knobs to increase gripping edges, giving straight-line control and precise cornering.

    An even more aggressive Minion?! The Maxxis Minion DHR II is a complete redesign. Acceleration, cornering, and braking have all been improved. The shoulder knobs were borrowed from the legendary Minion DHF and then beefed up to handle duty as a rear tire. And, the center tread is heavily ramped and siped to roll fast and track straight under braking.

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    So many options, for my MA chunky trails I like the 2.5 DHF on the front and a aggressor 2.4 in the rear.

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    Also, tire mfrs usually try to make rear tires to be self-cleaning. A rear tire should be self-cleaning as it turns in the direction to move the bike forward. You can see the pyramid shape of the middle knobs on the DHR so that it sweeps mud away from the center. A front tire does most of the braking, and not usually skidding while doing so, so mfrs don't worry too much about self-cleaning.
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    DHF stands for downhill freeride not front. A whole lot of people run them front and back including myself. A DHR2 is also a great front tire with a lot of braking traction in steep terrain. The DHF rolls much better in the rear than a DHR though.

    Onza Aquila’s are a really good combination of both of these tires.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    DHF stands for downhill freeride not front. A whole lot of people run them front and back including myself. A DHR2 is also a great front tire with a lot of braking traction in steep terrain. The DHF rolls much better in the rear than a DHR though.

    Onza Aquila’s are a really good combination of both of these tires.

    Yeah, I've finally committed to going full DHF/DHF on my trail bike. Running the DHF 2.5 WT 275 Exo 3C front and rear. They are a bit more volume than the DHR and quite sure they roll better. Those center knobs seem to make a nice strip to roll. Wish I would have done this sooner.

    What you give up to a DHR is the straight line, steep braking power. I thought that was very noticeable on my DH rig. But conditions with routine trail riding aren't so steep and so I can get away with out those paddle knobs. The DHR probably did climb the steep tech a bit better as well, but not by much, as I think the increase volume of the DHF offsets some of that.

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    I have a 2.8" and a 2.5" WT DHF on two bikes and have been wanting a different rear for both bikes. I've never considered a DHF in back, hmm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    DHF stands for downhill freeride not front.
    That's not true. It was even in the Maxxis literature that F was for front back in the day. The original DHR was definitely intended to be ran in the rear.

    Maxxis Minion DHF vs DHR-screenshot_20190512-210821__01.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    That's not true. It was even in the Maxxis literature that F was for front back in the day. The original DHR was definitely intended to be ran in the rear.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Hmmm I was always told that wasn’t true about the DHF. I wasn’t referencing the original DHR only the DHR2. For riding the PNW or anywhere that’s truly steep it’s an awesome front tire. Overkill in Colorado though. I race on DHF’s front and back and I’m happy. I’ll replace the front DHF with an exo+ assegai when they’re out and keep the DHF in back. Works great for me.
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    I think the practical differences are:

    The DHF has greater peak cornering traction if you get it leaned over. It will occasionally freak you out by sliding a bit as you transition to the cornering knobs. The DHR2 doesn't have such a wide transition zone so it might be a better choice on tighter trails that don't always allow for large lean angles. The DHR2 also has a little bit better braking traction. I wouldn't this definitively but you might could say the DHR2 is a better front tire for slower east coast trail riding or less committed riders.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    Hmmm I was always told that wasn’t true about the DHF .
    The DHF was designed by DH racer Colin Bailey for DH racing. The OG DHR sucked and people quickly started using the DHF front and rear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    That's not true. It was even in the Maxxis literature that F was for front back in the day. The original DHR was definitely intended to be ran in the rear.

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    Actually it is true. Originally billed as DHF (freeride).

    https://bikerumor.com/2010/04/16/max...spen-xc-tires/

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    Quote Originally Posted by c_trail_biker View Post
    Actually it is true. Originally billed as DHF (freeride).

    https://bikerumor.com/2010/04/16/max...spen-xc-tires/
    I'm going with jeremy on this one. That article calls it the DHF (or DHf) Freeride. On Maxxis' site right now, they say the DHF comes in Downhill, Enduro and Trail spec. I'm sticking with F for front and R for rear. Whether you run them that way or not is an entirely different discussion, though!

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    Quote Originally Posted by c_trail_biker View Post
    Actually it is true. Originally billed as DHF (freeride).

    https://bikerumor.com/2010/04/16/max...spen-xc-tires/
    The DHf takes their popular downhill tire, lightens it up and makes it ready for the freeride crowd.
    Sounds like bike rumor is saying it was originally a DH tire. Either way I'm going with Maxxis on this one who explicitly states the DHR was a rear tire. I might see if I can find some more of Maxxis's literature later. However, think about how much sense it makes that Maxxis designed a tread specifically for freeride and made the DHR specifically for the rear but also for specifically for racing and then used the DHf and DHr naming conventions to signify not what we commonly use the initials F and R for, which would also apply to the DHR, but for 'downhill freeride' and 'downhill race'. You definitely want to use the tire with ramped knobs and max cornering traction for freeride not racing...you can tell because the rear specific tire is labeled "r" for race /s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    Hmmm I was always told that wasn’t true about the DHF. I wasn’t referencing the original DHR only the DHR2. For riding the PNW or anywhere that’s truly steep it’s an awesome front tire. Overkill in Colorado though. I race on DHF’s front and back and I’m happy. I’ll replace the front DHF with an exo+ assegai when they’re out and keep the DHF in back. Works great for me.
    Thought about that two as the Asg has traction for days, but there's something to be said about running the same front and rear and needing only one backup tire.

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    Maxxis Minion DHF vs DHR-screenshot_20190513-050721__01.jpg

    From the 2009 catalog, by this time they had quit specifying which end to run the tires (except not to run the DHR in front of a DHF) but they did state the DHF was designed for racing (which is also what that Bike rumor article implies). No mention of freeride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    ... The DHF rolls much better in the rear than a DHR though. ...
    I have had the opposite experience, at least in 27.5+ and 29+. The DHF rolls like a square in the rear and the DHR II rolls like an octagon (noticeably better but still not fast rolling). I now run DHF/DHR II (29+) on one bike and DHF/Nobby Nic (27.5+) on the other.

    Try a Bontrager XR4 or SE4 if you want to match F/R. Not at all important in my mind though. Some people also run a DHR II on the front and report it’s good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frs1661 View Post
    I have had the opposite experience, at least in 27.5+ and 29+. The DHF rolls like a square in the rear and the DHR II rolls like an octagon (noticeably better but still not fast rolling). I now run DHF/DHR II (29+) on one bike and DHF/Nobby Nic (27.5+) on the other.

    Try a Bontrager XR4 or SE4 if you want to match F/R. Not at all important in my mind though. Some people also run a DHR II on the front and report it’s good.
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    Here's a quote from Blistergear, who seem to know as much as anybody about bike and ski equipment, even acknowledging Colin Somebody, the guy who designed the original DHF and DHR:" And yes, the “F” and “R” designations do stand for Front and Rear. Don’t let some clueless choad on an internet forum tell you differently. Anyone who knows how tires work can obviously see that these were designed as a front and rear, respectively."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    No one cares about plus tires
    Lol. I never tried the skinny DHF on the back when I last had such a bike. DHF/Aggressor was my preference.

    Someone in the ‘one tire to rule them all’ thread suggested a 700x45c DHF, which I would like to try on my cross bike lol.
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    there's lots of info here: site:forums.mtbr.com DHF vs DHR

    this is interesting too: https://blisterreview.com/gear-revie...is-minion-dhr2

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    Interesting article there Puddle. Kinda points out that you don't have to be a rocket-scientist to see what a tire designer is trying to do. Look at the shapes, open-volume, and you get an idea what they were going for. I think the leading-edge ramp generally helps for rolling efficiency. But as some above have found who like the DHRII on the front, leading-edge ramps also open up some volume, so some people apparently like the DHRII on the front in muddy conditions. It probably clears the next leading braking edge better with ramps on the previous knob.

    But you can't see hardness. There could be some effect there also. A cool trick is to sit in a car, and have a buddy roll one wheel of a bicycle on the windshield. It feels sketchy to keep a pedal from scraping the paint on the hood, but if you can pull it off, it looks freakin' cool from the driver's seat to see what the knobs are doing on the ground. And that's only with a little weight on it compared to riding.
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    I have yet to find a tire I like better than the rekon. I like having three sets of knobs. Perhaps I'm not committed enough in cornering to notice any more traction with bigger side knobs and no intermediate ones. The XR4 is similar in this regard. People love the Minions but I'm not sold for my riding. Maybe if it was muddier/hero dirt, which we rarely see in the desert.
    Last edited by twodownzero; 1 Week Ago at 06:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelspeed View Post
    A cool trick is to sit in a car, and have a buddy roll one wheel of a bicycle on the windshield. It feels sketchy to keep a pedal from scraping the paint on the hood, but if you can pull it off, it looks freakin' cool from the driver's seat to see what the knobs are doing on the ground. And that's only with a little weight on it compared to riding.
    That would be cool...could do it with the wheel taken off the bike...it reminds of commercials we saw for tyres down here in Australia maybe 20 years ago to show the tread cutting through water (via a camera under a glass plate as part of the road)

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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    I have yet to find a tire I like better than the rekon. I like having three sets of knobs. Perhaps I'm not committed enough in cornering to notice any more traction with bigger side knobs and boo intermediate ones. The XR4 is similar in this regard. People love the Minions but I'm not sold for my riding. Maybe if it was muddier/hero dirt, which we rarely see in the desert.
    Really most people probably don't need Minions and probably aren't close to exploiting their capabilities. I don't see any reason to be totally glued to the ground when riding XC trails. That said a Minion on the front doesn't roll that bad either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    Really most people probably don't need Minions and probably aren't close to exploiting their capabilities. I don't see any reason to be totally glued to the ground when riding XC trails. That said a Minion on the front doesn't roll that bad either.
    I find it so funny when people in the Northeast talk about having/wanting minions. Unless you ride at ski mountains, there is no real reason for such a tire. I rode with a pair a few times, they were so slow. I couldn't even imagine using them again unless I was at a bike park where grip is needed, like wet rocky trails with mixed in mud. My mind is blown that this is so many peoples go to tire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    Really most people probably don't need Minions and probably aren't close to exploiting their capabilities. I don't see any reason to be totally glued to the ground when riding XC trails. That said a Minion on the front doesn't roll that bad either.
    I like grip as much as the next guy, but I don't see how more void ratio is going to give more grip on anything but the loosest surfaces. Even reading above, people acknowledge that Minions slide when one is in between the main knobs and the side knobs when cornering.

    I had a crash last year that I'm not sure would have been different with different tires, because it happened so fast, but there was a noticeable drag line where my tires slid up the bermed corner, over the edge of it, and in the dirt for 4-5 feet before my tire hit a small woody plant and pitched me OTB. I never touched the brakes. I was definitely hauling ass pretty good and had my weight somewhat back on the bike because I was descending. Perhaps I just found a spot that was looser than I expected and exceeded what would have been the available front traction regardless of tire choice, but I'm not sure the huge void ratio of a chunky tire did me any favors.

    Tire void ratio is a balance between grip on soft surfaces and rubber on the ground when it's harder. Installing the most aggressive tires obviously is going to help when the surface is soft, but when it's harder, even loose over hard, I don't really see how the chunkiest tires are going to produce better traction than more modest ones.

    I am not an engineer and I have never taken a physics course for credit so this is all seat of the pants feel for me. FWIW, I don't have mud tires on my truck either. This is the desert--I want more biting edges to grip the rocks.

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    I've never ridden in the desert so you might be right. On any dirt other than true hardpack Minions have monster grip. The cornering knobs act as a biting edge to dig deeper into the soil. The closer the knobs are spaced the closer it is to mimicking a slick tire. Off-road tires rely a lot on mechanical grip.

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    I run DHFs front and rear too. 27.5x2.5..... Maxxgrip up front and Maxxterra in the back. I started running the DHF in the back because I wanted a 2.5 and the DHR2 only comes in a 2.4. I have ran a DHF back to back with a DHR2 in the rear but in a 2.6 (Had issues....2.6s are inherently a weaker casing than 2.5 or narrower). I think the difference between the DHF and DHR2 is pretty subtle and you can't really go wrong with either. For me, the little bit of extra volume won out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scooterman View Post
    I find it so funny when people in the Northeast talk about having/wanting minions. Unless you ride at ski mountains, there is no real reason for such a tire. I rode with a pair a few times, they were so slow. I couldn't even imagine using them again unless I was at a bike park where grip is needed, like wet rocky trails with mixed in mud. My mind is blown that this is so many peoples go to tire.

    I find it so funny when the people in the Rockies and out West talk about having/wanting Minions. Unless you ride at ski mountains, there is no real reason for such a tire. I rode with a pair a few times, they were so slow. I couldn't even imagine using them again unless I was at a bike park where grip is needed, like loose over hard pack. My mind is blown that this is so many peoples go to tire.

    Grip in places I've ridden out West and in the Southwest offer traction for days compared to the eternally wet, slick, off camber, non-buff stuff some of us are riding here in the Northeast. In fact my plan, next time I take a trip out West I plan on running an Aggressor out back.


    While this video captures some of the more rugged stuff we've got, it might give you an idea. Obviously this rider's first time through so he's taking it slow.

    But how do you think riding this at speed would go with any tire less than a Minion?

    If I had my choice I'd bump up to an Assegai for this particular trail.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8a4L8vYrWs&t=1442s

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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    I like grip as much as the next guy, but I don't see how more void ratio is going to give more grip on anything but the loosest surfaces. Even reading above, people acknowledge that Minions slide when one is in between the main knobs and the side knobs when cornering.

    I had a crash last year that I'm not sure would have been different with different tires, because it happened so fast, but there was a noticeable drag line where my tires slid up the bermed corner, over the edge of it, and in the dirt for 4-5 feet before my tire hit a small woody plant and pitched me OTB. I never touched the brakes. I was definitely hauling ass pretty good and had my weight somewhat back on the bike because I was descending. Perhaps I just found a spot that was looser than I expected and exceeded what would have been the available front traction regardless of tire choice, but I'm not sure the huge void ratio of a chunky tire did me any favors.

    Tire void ratio is a balance between grip on soft surfaces and rubber on the ground when it's harder. Installing the most aggressive tires obviously is going to help when the surface is soft, but when it's harder, even loose over hard, I don't really see how the chunkiest tires are going to produce better traction than more modest ones.

    I am not an engineer and I have never taken a physics course for credit so this is all seat of the pants feel for me. FWIW, I don't have mud tires on my truck either. This is the desert--I want more biting edges to grip the rocks.

    If you are riding in dry and loose conditions, Minions are hard to beat. I think I have finally landed on my "trail" set of tires. A DHR II up front with a Rekon out back, both MaxxTerra. The Rekon pedals well and finds climbing traction as needed. However, the DHR II up front is amazing. The widest tread block in the center acts like a transition knob during hard cornering yet still allows the channel to exist to let the side knobs bite into the trail. I feel like the DHF vagueness is eliminated with a DHR II up front. The only thing missing is volume. The 2.4s are smaller than my 2.5 DHF/Aggressor set up. The EXO+ 2.6 DHR II might give me what I want in durability and volume.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beer_coffee_water View Post
    If you are riding in dry and loose conditions, Minions are hard to beat. I think I have finally landed on my "trail" set of tires. A DHR II up front with a Rekon out back, both MaxxTerra. The Rekon pedals well and finds climbing traction as needed. However, the DHR II up front is amazing. The widest tread block in the center acts like a transition knob during hard cornering yet still allows the channel to exist to let the side knobs bite into the trail. I feel like the DHF vagueness is eliminated with a DHR II up front. The only thing missing is volume. The 2.4s are smaller than my 2.5 DHF/Aggressor set up. The EXO+ 2.6 DHR II might give me what I want in durability and volume.
    This is my setup as well on my lesser travel bikes (2.3 DHRII 3C exo up front and 2.25 Rekon out back), otherwise I use an aggressor in the rear along with a wider DHRII up front on 5" or more travel rigs. The DHRII has a smaller gap between the center and edge lugs, so that "vague" feeling when transitioning to full lean that a lot of us have experienced with a DHF on the front is gone. I also like the slightly less rounded profile of the DHRII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beer_coffee_water View Post
    If you are riding in dry and loose conditions, Minions are hard to beat. I think I have finally landed on my "trail" set of tires. A DHR II up front with a Rekon out back, both MaxxTerra. The Rekon pedals well and finds climbing traction as needed. However, the DHR II up front is amazing. The widest tread block in the center acts like a transition knob during hard cornering yet still allows the channel to exist to let the side knobs bite into the trail. I feel like the DHF vagueness is eliminated with a DHR II up front. The only thing missing is volume. The 2.4s are smaller than my 2.5 DHF/Aggressor set up. The EXO+ 2.6 DHR II might give me what I want in durability and volume.
    If you think that, you'd love the Rekon+ I'm running. I don't see how the big knobs up front would make any difference. I have had both, and the Rekon+ rolls smoother and has just as much grip. Maybe I'll feel differently this summer after I try it out of town, but so far it has been great here and in Colorado.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    I like grip as much as the next guy, but I don't see how more void ratio is going to give more grip on anything but the loosest surfaces. Even reading above, people acknowledge that Minions slide when one is in between the main knobs and the side knobs when cornering.

    I had a crash last year that I'm not sure would have been different with different tires, because it happened so fast, but there was a noticeable drag line where my tires slid up the bermed corner, over the edge of it, and in the dirt for 4-5 feet before my tire hit a small woody plant and pitched me OTB. I never touched the brakes. I was definitely hauling ass pretty good and had my weight somewhat back on the bike because I was descending. Perhaps I just found a spot that was looser than I expected and exceeded what would have been the available front traction regardless of tire choice, but I'm not sure the huge void ratio of a chunky tire did me any favors.

    Tire void ratio is a balance between grip on soft surfaces and rubber on the ground when it's harder. Installing the most aggressive tires obviously is going to help when the surface is soft, but when it's harder, even loose over hard, I don't really see how the chunkiest tires are going to produce better traction than more modest ones.

    I am not an engineer and I have never taken a physics course for credit so this is all seat of the pants feel for me. FWIW, I don't have mud tires on my truck either. This is the desert--I want more biting edges to grip the rocks.
    Most likely your front wheel washout was because you had your weight back.You need to commit and load the front tire.

    And you are wrong if you think a low knob tire ,say an Ikon, has near the traction of a knobbier tire,a DHF on any kind of dirt surface.I race XC with Ikons and ride some of the same trails with my AM bike with a DHF and the difference in "safe" cornering speeds is quite apparent.

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    I have experience on 27.5x2.8 and 29x2.6 Rekons. They're not even remotely close in grip compared to Minions. Even the 2.3 Aggressor that was replaced by my 2.6 Rekon on the back of my hardtail had more grip. If it wasn't obvious, there's a reason you don't see Rekons being run on the DH World Cup circuit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apexit View Post
    This is my setup as well on my lesser travel bikes (2.3 DHRII 3C exo up front and 2.25 Rekon out back), otherwise I use an aggressor in the rear along with a wider DHRII up front on 5" or more travel rigs. The DHRII has a smaller gap between the center and edge lugs, so that "vague" feeling when transitioning to full lean that a lot of us have experienced with a DHF on the front is gone. I also like the slightly less rounded profile of the DHRII.
    I agree as I stated above. It is a great combo during the good conditions part of the season where I live. I am running them on a 160/165mm bike. When the trails aren't blown out they do everything I ask them to do. Once summer gets into full swing and the trails turn to dust, rock and sand I will put my 2.5 Aggressor on the rear and bump to the 2.6 DHR II unless the Assegai EXO becomes available.

    Another thing I have noticed about the vague feeling the DHF produces is that I feel it is lessened with a DHR II out back. Almost like the DHR II is willing to prop my bike up until the DHF grabs on and locks in.

    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    If you think that, you'd love the Rekon+ I'm running. I don't see how the big knobs up front would make any difference. I have had both, and the Rekon+ rolls smoother and has just as much grip. Maybe I'll feel differently this summer after I try it out of town, but so far it has been great here and in Colorado.
    I am glad the Rekons are working for you. I like more grip out of my front tire which why I prefer to run an Aggressor or Rekon out back mated with a Minion up front. I like how the less knobbier tire slips, slides and gives control to the front. After riding a Rekon on the rear of my bike, I don't feel like it could dig hard enough to get the handling characteristics I prefer out of a front tire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joecx View Post
    Most likely your front wheel washout was because you had your weight back.You need to commit and load the front tire.

    And you are wrong if you think a low knob tire ,say an Ikon, has near the traction of a knobbier tire,a DHF on any kind of dirt surface.I race XC with Ikons and ride some of the same trails with my AM bike with a DHF and the difference in "safe" cornering speeds is quite apparent.
    You're misrepresenting what I'm saying. I never suggested an Ikon, which is an XC rear tire at best, for a front tire. What I'm saying is that a more intermediate, but still meaty, tread design is better for me. The Minion certainly gets a lot of love, but it's a very aggressive tire and that comes with tradeoffs. Maybe I'll try one again later this year just to see, but having three sets of knobs like the xr4 or rekon have is what I've preferred so far. My friends say the same. Maybe we are just all slow, but I doubt it.

    As to what the dh circuit is running mentioned in the later post, that is exactly what the manufacturers want you to think and that's why their logos are prominent at any big event. Racers at that level are running what they are paid to run, and those people are pros! They would be superstars on any tire. In any event, a dh course isn't what most of us are riding. If we have to pedal both up and down, our expectations are different. But make no mistake, those people are good. Tiger woods would destroy all of us with a set of clubs from goodwill. Equipment isn't everything.

    If the Minion is the tire for all time for you, run it. I just don't see it though when a slightly less aggressive tire does the job.

  38. #38
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    Fan of both the DHF & DHR. I run a 2.3 DHF & 2.4 Ardent on my shorter travel bike, which I race tamer enduros on and use for general trail riding & DHR 2.4 & 2.3 on the bigger bike.

    Definately not a fan of the bigger 2.5 WT Maxxis stuff though, in 29" form they weigh a tonne & it really mutes the feel of the trail. I'm noticeably slower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post

    As to what the dh circuit is running mentioned in the later post, that is exactly what the manufacturers want you to think and that's why their logos are prominent at any big event. Racers at that level are running what they are paid to run, and those people are pros!
    That's your assumption but not how it actually works. Maxxis sponsored riders have a lot of tire options. Maxxis even made the Ikon in DD for their enduro racers who wanted a fast rolling rear tire. The DHF and DHR2 as I mentioned earlier was designed by a DH racer and he raced those tires himself. Maxxis riders aren't limited to just racing on Minions. It's not just sponsored riders either. Experienced amateurs aren't racing on Rekons either. My point is more experienced riders are telling you Minions have more grip but you can write them off if you want.

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    Same story regardless of what tire you are talking about, and that is the fact the rider reports are so subjective that it really doesn't make any sense to even post reports w/o valid information regarding riding condition, travel of bike, size of rider, and skill level.

    For example, I am 260lbs and ride a Hightower with 150mm fork in the Midwest. Very tame trails when compared to other parts of the country, but I have always been a fan of a DHF style tire up front with a high volume XC (ikon, Force AM) tire in the rear. I ask a lot more out of a front tire then most who have posted here based on my weight and how much more force it takes for me to change direction. That is the reason I basically "over tire" the front, and can get away with a less aggressive tire in the back. I don't have the DH braking requirements that others do, and find a XC rear tire climbs just fine for me 95% of the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    That's your assumption but not how it actually works. Maxxis sponsored riders have a lot of tire options. Maxxis even made the Ikon in DD for their enduro racers who wanted a fast rolling rear tire. The DHF and DHR2 as I mentioned earlier was designed by a DH racer and he raced those tires himself. Maxxis riders aren't limited to just racing on Minions. It's not just sponsored riders either. Experienced amateurs aren't racing on Rekons either. My point is more experienced riders are telling you Minions have more grip but you can write them off if you want.
    More grip on what surface? It always boggles my mind how people make blanket statements like "more grip" without explaining what that even means. This is no different than me saying that a summer tire has more grip than a mud tire without specifying that I'm talking about on paved surface rather than clay.

    A more aggressive tire trades off less rubber on the ground and fewer biting edges in exchange for deeper tread blocks that will bite harder into softer surfaces. That explains the DH/Enduro people if sponsorship doesn't; I've not been to a bike park built on a mountain made out of rock yet.

    I don't really want to get into a discussion of friction because there are too many variables for that to be a meaningful discussion without some numbers. But if it's really your position that a tire that has fewer, larger tread blocks has "more grip" on rock or hardpack, I'm sorry to tell you that is simply not correct. Nobody in motorsports is running knobby tires on a hard surface for a reason--smoother tires have more grip on smoother surfaces.

    Your position is really no different than telling someone a downhill bike is best for all trails because it has more suspension travel. Tire selection has to be related to the surface. There cannot simply be one tire that has better traction regardless of the surface it's used on. The existence of more than one tread design is alone evidence that can't be correct. Why would anyone purposely buy a tire with less traction? Especially where they are racing and the uphill portions, if they exist at all, are not timed.

    In the specific realm where this tire shines, I'm sure it's great. That is not what we're discussing here. My position is simple: on harder trail surfaces, I have found a tire with intermediate knobs to offer better traction in cornering than one with huge side knobs and nothing in between.

    I cite not only my own experience but I also challenge you to read reviews and this very forum talking about the sketchy handling in between the center knobs and the size knobs on tires that have nothing in between. I also suggest that you look at tires made to be used off road on virtually any 2 wheeled vehicle (e.g., dirt bikes) and tell me how many of them have large areas of the tread profile that have nothing but a gap such that at modest lean angles, no tread block is parallel to the road surface? Outside of the most aggressive tires made primarily for mud, you won't find too many. And you won't find "racers" in that world (MX, Enduro, etc.) running a tire with sketchy handling at modest lean angles. There's even a poster in this very thread above who says he prefers the DHR2 up front because the knobs extend further down the casing so as to provide a biting edge between the vertical and hard lean angles.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    More grip on what surface? It always boggles my mind how people make blanket statements like "more grip" without explaining what that even means. This is no different than me saying that a summer tire has more grip than a mud tire without specifying that I'm talking about on paved surface rather than clay.

    A more aggressive tire trades off less rubber on the ground and fewer biting edges in exchange for deeper tread blocks that will bite harder into softer surfaces. That explains the DH/Enduro people if sponsorship doesn't; I've not been to a bike park built on a mountain made out of rock yet.

    I don't really want to get into a discussion of friction because there are too many variables for that to be a meaningful discussion without some numbers. But if it's really your position that a tire that has fewer, larger tread blocks has "more grip" on rock or hardpack, I'm sorry to tell you that is simply not correct. Nobody in motorsports is running knobby tires on a hard surface for a reason--smoother tires have more grip on smoother surfaces.

    Your position is really no different than telling someone a downhill bike is best for all trails because it has more suspension travel. Tire selection has to be related to the surface. There cannot simply be one tire that has better traction regardless of the surface it's used on. The existence of more than one tread design is alone evidence that can't be correct. Why would anyone purposely buy a tire with less traction? Especially where they are racing and the uphill portions, if they exist at all, are not timed.

    In the specific realm where this tire shines, I'm sure it's great. That is not what we're discussing here. My position is simple: on harder trail surfaces, I have found a tire with intermediate knobs to offer better traction in cornering than one with huge side knobs and nothing in between.

    I cite not only my own experience but I also challenge you to read reviews and this very forum talking about the sketchy handling in between the center knobs and the size knobs on tires that have nothing in between. I also suggest that you look at tires made to be used off road on virtually any 2 wheeled vehicle (e.g., dirt bikes) and tell me how many of them have large areas of the tread profile that have nothing but a gap such that at modest lean angles, no tread block is parallel to the road surface? Outside of the most aggressive tires made primarily for mud, you won't find too many. And you won't find "racers" in that world (MX, Enduro, etc.) running a tire with sketchy handling at modest lean angles. There's even a poster in this very thread above who says he prefers the DHR2 up front because the knobs extend further down the casing so as to provide a biting edge between the vertical and hard lean angles.
    I get where you're coming from... but it's just not that simple on either side of this discussion. We can't really make too many comparisons to motorsports here for many reasons; % of dynamic pilot weight vs vehicle weight differences, sensitivity to rolling resistance due to human power vs machine power, sprung vs unsprung mass ratios, contact patch vs gross vehicle weight ratios, etc etc etc.

    There is definitely truth that the tire has to be chosen for the terrain at hand... however there is nearly no disputing that large shoulder/side knob tires grip more then moderate ones. I myself, like to get sketchy and rip my xc/trail tires pretty hard... but they in no way provide as much cornering grip in varied conditions then a tire like the dhf/dhr. The only exception for me, is pure slick rock (as long as there is no dust). But even in that case, a dhf/dhr is going to grip so well that the difference in grip is negligible in application.

    I digress... There's a lot at play here... for example, even though technically, an Ikon, rekon or even aspen style tire should technically grip better in loose over hard... I find that the minion combo's penetrate the loose over hard more consistently and as a result, provide better grip. One example that comes to mind with this is a tire like the forekaster, which is meant for wet/mud, however runs great on a loose over hard situation because it penetrates the dust.

    Your past point is about lean angle. This is a fair point and is very subjective. The DHF is an amazing tire but the way it wants to be ridden is a bit polarizing. It wants (demands?) to be leaned A TOOOOONNN to get the most out of it and it also requires significant weight in your hands. It can be a tire that leads to wash outs for more timid riders and in uncertain conditions. I do agree that the DHR2 is a great solution in this regard and can provide the same performance ultimate performance, but more flexibility in riding style. I do think the DHF has a sort of mob mentality going and some riders could benefit from a DHR or a different tire with the same performance (not many exist tbh).

    This is all generally over simplification of the issue. There are other items at play such as casing stiffness (TPI as well as other factors) that impact how a tire deforms and how it's air volume adds or subtracts from the equation. The important part is that this is subjective so you should certainly do what you feel works best for you. That being said, there is a definitive reason that minions are not only the benchmark for aggressive tires, but also the line in the sand for tire tread design. In my opinion, they are the typically the right answer in the biggest range of conditions. You'll find riders using minions in every single climate and riding area in the country. Many of them are fast, experienced and opinionated.

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    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to minimusprime again."

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    From my experience running the DHF front and rear, if you are having to run excessive pressures to keep from having pinch flats, the vagueness from the channels on each side of the center knobs is amplified significantly. I have been running insert for the last month or so and have had my 2.5WTs down between 18-20 in the front and 20-22 in the back and there is no vague feeling at all. The side knobs engage the ground very quickly. For reference, I am 170ish ready to ride.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to minimusprime again."
    I got the same thing..... not my fault there is only 12 reputable people on MTBR. LOL

    And yes, that was sarcasm.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    From my experience running the DHF front and rear, if you are having to run excessive pressures to keep from having pinch flats, the vagueness from the channels on each side of the center knobs is amplified significantly. I have been running insert for the last month or so and have had my 2.5WTs down between 18-20 in the front and 20-22 in the back and there is no vague feeling at all. The side knobs engage the ground very quickly. For reference, I am 170ish ready to ride.
    Interesting... I had previously been running the 2.5" DHF - 2.4" DHR combo on my hightower, however sold that bike and moved on. In that time period between enduro bikes (3 months) I was riding my trance 29 with the 2.3/2.3 DHF/DHR combo.

    Flash forward to last weekend and I'm on my new megatower and I found myself struggling to get fully comfortable with the traction thresholds of the 2.5/2.4 DHF/DHR combo. I sorta figured it was just the length of the bike (XL) and adjusting to geo that's slightly more aggro then anything I've owned previously or potentially, these EXO+ casing tires. I hadn't really considered that I could be running a smidge too much pressure in the front and that could be making it vague. (I'm running 26 F - 27 R @ 175lb riding weight)

    I do usually find that I have to run more pressure then what I find people posting they run here on the forums just due to sidewall feel and rim strikes. Maybe I should try dropping down a psi (or 2-3) in front to see if that has an impact.

    Good point!

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    For me the DHF deadzone issue comes into play on slight turns at higher speeds. Typically I lean the bike over pretty aggressively. It's when I'm weaving around a slight bend where I'm either slow to lean the bike or I normally wouldn't think to lean that much that I'm sometimes surprised by the tire drifting for a second. It usually hooks up though once the side knobs dig in.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimusprime View Post
    Flash forward to last weekend and I'm on my new megatower and I found myself struggling to get fully comfortable with the traction thresholds of the 2.5/2.4 DHF/DHR combo. I sorta figured it was just the length of the bike (XL) and adjusting to geo that's slightly more aggro then anything I've owned previously or potentially, these EXO+ casing tires. I hadn't really considered that I could be running a smidge too much pressure in the front and that could be making it vague. (I'm running 26 F - 27 R @ 175lb riding weight)
    I'm 215 lbs and run 26F/29R on my MT with the same tires. That's probably the minimum I can run too. I destroyed a couple tires already this year trying to run lower pressures (22-25psi) on my hardtail (ended up getting inserts for that bike). Haven't been able to get the Megatower to the bike park yet but I'll probably only run 1-2 psi more than the 26/29 psi.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimusprime View Post
    Interesting... I had previously been running the 2.5" DHF - 2.4" DHR combo on my hightower, however sold that bike and moved on. In that time period between enduro bikes (3 months) I was riding my trance 29 with the 2.3/2.3 DHF/DHR combo.

    Flash forward to last weekend and I'm on my new megatower and I found myself struggling to get fully comfortable with the traction thresholds of the 2.5/2.4 DHF/DHR combo. I sorta figured it was just the length of the bike (XL) and adjusting to geo that's slightly more aggro then anything I've owned previously or potentially, these EXO+ casing tires. I hadn't really considered that I could be running a smidge too much pressure in the front and that could be making it vague. (I'm running 26 F - 27 R @ 175lb riding weight)

    I do usually find that I have to run more pressure then what I find people posting they run here on the forums just due to sidewall feel and rim strikes. Maybe I should try dropping down a psi (or 2-3) in front to see if that has an impact.

    Good point!
    The extra volume of the 29er should allow you to get away with less than 26/29 at 175 lbs. Unless you riding that Megatower like Mark Scott rides his. LOL

    Prior to the inserts I was running 21 and 23 which worked well.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    I'm 215 lbs and run 26F/29R on my MT with the same tires. That's probably the minimum I can run too. I destroyed a couple tires already this year trying to run lower pressures (22-25psi) on my hardtail (ended up getting inserts for that bike). Haven't been able to get the Megatower to the bike park yet but I'll probably only run 1-2 psi more than the 26/29 psi.
    At 215 those pressures are about what I would have guessed you would need.

  51. #51
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    I've not ridden both but many bikes come with one or the other installed both front and rear. My 2018 (27.5) AL/DL Process 153 came with DHF's front (2.5) and rear (2.3). My buddy just picked up a Jeffsey 29 that came with DHR's front and rear. Unless you're riding terrain that is not a good fit for an aggressive tread design like DHF or DHR, you're probably splitting hairs on the difference.

    The DHF's give me great traction for NE roots, rocks, muck, and tough sidewalls that last (that's the first thing to go around here). I run tubeless at 20-22psi. Rolling resistance isn't much of a factor, traction and durability is king. When it was time to replace a few months ago I went with the same thing.

    My previous bike (Heckler) had High Rollers which were a similar aggressive tread design that I stayed with until getting the new Kona.
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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    More grip on what surface? It always boggles my mind how people make blanket statements like "more grip" without explaining what that even means. This is no different than me saying that a summer tire has more grip than a mud tire without specifying that I'm talking about on paved surface rather than clay.

    A more aggressive tire trades off less rubber on the ground and fewer biting edges in exchange for deeper tread blocks that will bite harder into softer surfaces. That explains the DH/Enduro people if sponsorship doesn't; I've not been to a bike park built on a mountain made out of rock yet.

    I don't really want to get into a discussion of friction because there are too many variables for that to be a meaningful discussion without some numbers. But if it's really your position that a tire that has fewer, larger tread blocks has "more grip" on rock or hardpack, I'm sorry to tell you that is simply not correct. Nobody in motorsports is running knobby tires on a hard surface for a reason--smoother tires have more grip on smoother surfaces.

    Your position is really no different than telling someone a downhill bike is best for all trails because it has more suspension travel. Tire selection has to be related to the surface. There cannot simply be one tire that has better traction regardless of the surface it's used on. The existence of more than one tread design is alone evidence that can't be correct. Why would anyone purposely buy a tire with less traction? Especially where they are racing and the uphill portions, if they exist at all, are not timed.

    In the specific realm where this tire shines, I'm sure it's great. That is not what we're discussing here. My position is simple: on harder trail surfaces, I have found a tire with intermediate knobs to offer better traction in cornering than one with huge side knobs and nothing in between.

    I cite not only my own experience but I also challenge you to read reviews and this very forum talking about the sketchy handling in between the center knobs and the size knobs on tires that have nothing in between. I also suggest that you look at tires made to be used off road on virtually any 2 wheeled vehicle (e.g., dirt bikes) and tell me how many of them have large areas of the tread profile that have nothing but a gap such that at modest lean angles, no tread block is parallel to the road surface? Outside of the most aggressive tires made primarily for mud, you won't find too many. And you won't find "racers" in that world (MX, Enduro, etc.) running a tire with sketchy handling at modest lean angles. There's even a poster in this very thread above who says he prefers the DHR2 up front because the knobs extend further down the casing so as to provide a biting edge between the vertical and hard lean angles.
    :thumbsup

    Added to this, it's likely that some like the DHF/R style of tyre because it comes in much softer compounds than typical tyres that have "transition knobs"

    For those who've been around for a few years, it's funny that the Kenda Nevegal was RAVED about, by mostly everybody, around the world, until all of a sudden it became unfashionable and slow, and transition knobs were bad. That tyre could be had with a super sticky compound in a trail carcass...and it stuck like glue on hardpack at all lean angles because of it transition knobs

  53. #53
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    I think another advantage of the DHF and DHR2 is you can feel when you're on the side knobs. With the XR4 I've found (especially in the wet) myself leaning the bike waiting to feel the side knobs dig in and they're not there. I think it's a bit easier to carve a line on the Minions.

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    This is true, the Nevegal is an awesome tire. However, I'm on Minions today.
    Tires are so subjective as there are infinite variables and riders. None the less, its very interesting to see some folks responses and their reasoning.

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    I used to love the 2.35 Nevegal on my SS when that was pretty much the largest volume 27.5 tire available (~2010ish?), rode them for many years. That bike now has a 2.8 DHF up front and a 2.6" Nobby Nic on the back- no regrets.
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    How about Minions vs High Roller 2s? Anyone have experience with both? Pros vs cons?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    How about Minions vs High Roller 2s? Anyone have experience with both? Pros vs cons?
    I've played around with the HR2. It's got good grip, punches through loose over hard well and does extremely well in moist and loamy conditions imo. That being said, I find that it has a very abrupt transition to the side knobs. On top of that, I find that the grip limit and communication of the limits isn't as clear as on the minions. I'm not sure if it's because the HR2 doesn't have as much shoulder knob support or if it's the transition channel between the center knobs and side knobs... but that tire doesn't work for me. I'm not alone in this within my race team for my LBS, but the two guys that really like the HR2 are really very, very seriously fast and skilled riders.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimusprime View Post
    I've played around with the HR2. It's got good grip, punches through loose over hard well and does extremely well in moist and loamy conditions imo. That being said, I find that it has a very abrupt transition to the side knobs. On top of that, I find that the grip limit and communication of the limits isn't as clear as on the minions. I'm not sure if it's because the HR2 doesn't have as much shoulder knob support or if it's the transition channel between the center knobs and side knobs... but that tire doesn't work for me. I'm not alone in this within my race team for my LBS, but the two guys that really like the HR2 are really very, very seriously fast and skilled riders.
    Interesting. Thanks of the feedback. It would seem that Minnaar agrees with you as he basically used HR2 side knobs but added transitional knobs on the Assegai. Pretty curious to try an Assegai.

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    I've been curious about the Assegai as well. They look pretty good, but I have never seen them out on the trails nor have I met anyone (in person) who has tried them.
    Anyone here have any feedback on them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JaxMustang50 View Post
    I've been curious about the Assegai as well. They look pretty good, but I have never seen them out on the trails nor have I met anyone (in person) who has tried them.
    Anyone here have any feedback on them?
    My experience on them is on my DH bike only, so we are talking about a DH casing tire between the Assegai and Minions. On my DH rig I've run the DHF/DHR2 for quite some time. Also ran the Magic Mary's, which gave more traction, but were horribly fragile. Last season I've moved from the Minions to the Assegai and it was definite step up in traction. I'm very happy with them and don't plan on going back to the Minions on the DH rig. I think they'd be overkill on a trail bike though. You have to be on some really wicked stuff to out ride a Minion.
    Last edited by Miker J; 6 Days Ago at 03:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    I think the practical differences are:

    The DHF has greater peak cornering traction if you get it leaned over. It will occasionally freak you out by sliding a bit as you transition to the cornering knobs. The DHR2 doesn't have such a wide transition zone so it might be a better choice on tighter trails that don't always allow for large lean angles. The DHR2 also has a little bit better braking traction. I wouldn't this definitively but you might could say the DHR2 is a better front tire for slower east coast trail riding or less committed riders.
    I can agree to this about the vague transition zone on the DHF - especially in the wider versions (I run 2.6"). I recently switched to the Rekon 2.6 which has transition knobs and noticed much more predictable traction at more lean angles.

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