Maxxis - Looking for more grip than Ikon/Ardent Race combo...- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Maxxis - Looking for more grip than Ikon/Ardent Race combo...

    I'm currently running the following setup on my 29er XC bike...

    Rear: Ikon 2.2 3C/EXO/TR (640g)
    Front: Ardent Race 2.35 3C/EXO/TR (745g)

    It's a really fast combo when it's dry, but I find myself wanting a bit more grip (especially in front) when it's less than ideal conditions. Since this is my race bike, I also don't want to get too heavy/add too much rolling resistance.

    For the back I'm debating between the Ardent Race 2.2 (720g) and Rekon 2.25 (670g). I think the Ardent Race probably rolls a little faster, but the Rekon is lighter and probably has better climbing/braking traction. Is that right?

    For the front, I'm debating the Rekon 2.25 (670g), the Forekaster 2.35 (735g) and the wildcard entry DHRII 2.3 (825g). The DHRII is clearly the heaviest and likely the slowest rolling, and is probably more than I need. I am intrigued by how much cornering traction it should have, though. Rekon vs Forekaster is a tougher decision. I think the Rekon probably rolls a little faster and is lighter. How much (if any) better is the Forekaster cornering grip, though?

    Anyway... Looking for input from people that have tried the tires I'm considering. Those Rekon 2.25 are surprisingly light, which is part of what makes this so hard. Has anyone actually weighed one of those to verify the weight?

    Thanks.

  2. #2
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    Rekon is a great tire for the weight. Dissector is a fast rolling traction upgrade from there.

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    The new style Bontrager XR3ís are amazing for grip and speed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mickstar View Post
    For the front, I'm debating the Rekon 2.25 (670g), the Forekaster 2.35 (735g) and the wildcard entry DHRII 2.3 (825g). The DHRII is clearly the heaviest and likely the slowest rolling, and is probably more than I need. I am intrigued by how much cornering traction it should have, though. Rekon vs Forekaster is a tougher decision. I think the Rekon probably rolls a little faster and is lighter. How much (if any) better is the Forekaster cornering grip, though?
    IME, the Rekon 2.6 rolls as fast as the Forekaster 2.35 but has a little less grip, and both are undersized. My Rekon 2.6 up front isnít a lot bigger than my Ikon 2.35 (only Maxxis tire that measures true to size) out rear in fact. So, I donít think that any of those tires are going to overlap in terms of grip or rolling speed. Maybe throw the Rekon 2.4 into the mix?

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    I personally never really liked the ardent race, just didnt do much great seemed like a general comprimise all around, I think you are looking at right combos. Guessing you know this but interanl rim width and pressure matter a lot on all these tires got to play with those (at least with pressure if have ability different rim widths is nice to what suits your use as well)

    I would take the Rekon 2.25 for rear and Forekaster 2.35 for front personally, or Rekon 2.4 MaxxTerra Up front. I think these are all versatile combos and if it is a real dry fast rolling less loose stuff (sometime dry where I ride is very loose) I would throw the Ikon back on the rear. Wouldn't worry about changing the front.

    As far as cornering grip have had great success with Forkeaster and Rekons front and/or rear. Also will second the XR3 recommendation, that tire suprises me does so well even up front in a 2.4 on i30 rim. Came on my Top Fuel and I though I would switch them out but been no need to and I am tire junky.
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  6. #6
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    nino is running 2.4 aspens with inserts. many times, grip is a function of how low you can go in pressure, not so much the knob profile.

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    Agree with above but have to remember no one else in Nino and most of us not even the same conversation, also ever see Youtube Video of Nino determine the right pressure in his tires he essentially puts all weight down on tire by jumping on and makes sure HE DOES hit the rim, Easy to run that low when your rims are free and you have professional mechanic for the rest of us not so practical (at least IMHO).

    Regardless pressure wiuth the right tread is super important.
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    Nino - Beggining of this video, again IMHO need a little more than being able to hit rim but in general a lot of riders do overrun pressure

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43ruZxBIi2w
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  9. #9
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    You don't need ultra low pressure for traction, and many of us have given up on the rim smashing chase to flat tires.

    I run 20/30 psi f/r, and I don't damage rims anymore. I don't fold tires in corners, and casing the rear is more an oops than a day ending failure.

    I don't think it's necessary to run so low, and often detrimental.

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    30 psi is crazy high. I guarantee you lose traction at that high level bouncing around!!

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    It's really not very high, and my front is pretty low.

    https://www.perpetualdisappointment....ll-riders-use/

    Higher pressure wins races. Riding around flat just ruins your wheels.

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    I don't think Nino is worried about casing any big jumps during an XC race. Of course you need to run higher pressure for more aggressive riding and terrain. Just run the lowest you can get away with. Only you can determine what that pressure is. If you're getting tire squirm, pinch flats, or frequent rim strikes, add a little pressure. If you never have any issues, try taking out 1-2 PSI at a time until you find the limit, then go back up 1-2 PSI and that's the sweet spot for you.

    On the original topic, I'd recommend Rekon 2.4 or Forekaster 2.35 if you want to stick with Maxxis. The Rekon 2.4 specifically has more aggressive tread than the other sizes. The 2.25 is less aggressive than your current Ardent Race 2.35, and actually makes an excellent rear tire to pair with the Ardent Race front for dry conditions if you wanted something a bit more aggressive than that Ikon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dlxah View Post
    The Rekon 2.4 specifically has more aggressive tread than the other sizes.
    Pretty sure someone measured Rekons in 2.4 and 2.6, and found the tread to measure exactly the same, but it's tighter on the 2.4 given less surface area to work with and looks larger relative to the smaller casing. I think it was in the Rekon vs Forekaster thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    It's really not very high, and my front is pretty low.

    https://www.perpetualdisappointment....ll-riders-use/

    Higher pressure wins races. Riding around flat just ruins your wheels.
    Hold on, I'm confused. You justified your 30 psi rear pressure by giving us a link to an article in which the top DH racers average 27.2 psi and the top EWS riders average 25.6 psi?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GiddyHitch View Post
    Pretty sure someone measured Rekons in 2.4 and 2.6, and found the tread to measure exactly the same, but it's tighter on the 2.4 given less surface area to work with and looks larger relative to the smaller casing. I think it was in the Rekon vs Forekaster thread.
    You might be right; I've only seen photos of the 2.6. But the 2.6 is probably out of the question for OP anyway. I can say for sure that the 2.4 has much larger knobs than the 2.25. I have both.

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    I've been running the Rekon in 2.25 and the Aspen in 2.25 on my old wheelset with 23mm id, which was pretty fast and grippy. Recently purchased a new wheelset with 28mm id and for that wheel I got some wider tires to go with: Ikon in 2.35 on the front and Rekon Race in 2.35 on the back. The Ikon in 2.35 is a much burlier tire than its small sibling in 2.2. The knobs are much larger and the threadpatern looks more aggressive than the Rekon in 2.25. I'll post some pics when I get home.

    I'd suggest you go that route and forget about those 50-100g you gain. Wider tires offer a lot more traction and less rolling resistance because they can be run at lower pressures at equal tension of the sidewalls. I suggest you to watch this video and maybe reconsider your 30psi on the backwheel.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by savechief View Post
    Hold on, I'm confused. You justified your 30 psi rear pressure by giving us a link to an article in which the top DH racers average 27.2 psi and the top EWS riders average 25.6 psi?
    That is correct. You also used a summary method (averaging) to downplay the fact that the article shows riders over 31 psi in the rear. Out of 12 DH riders, 4 are at or over 29psi.

    I used DH as an example because thats the epitome of needing traction, and those guys run high. And on top of that, those sidewalls are already very stiff and can be ran lower. a DH tire at 30 psi is kind of like a normal tire at 35+ psi.

    Translating that over to XC and trail tires, 30 psi is a fairly moderate pressure for a thin walled tire. Guys like to pretend like thats unridable and its kind of silly.

    But circle back to the thread. The OP is running a narrow ardent race up front and wants more front traction. A wider tire with a more grippy design at the same pressure will offer more traction. Of course pressure can be lowered with a bigger tire too, but confusing the traction gain for being part of the pressure drop is far from whats happening. Ardent race up front is sketchy, its not a pressure issue there.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlxah View Post
    You might be right; I've only seen photos of the 2.6. But the 2.6 is probably out of the question for OP anyway. I can say for sure that the 2.4 has much larger knobs than the 2.25. I have both.
    I have the 29X2.6 and 29x2.4 Rekons. Knobs are exactly the same height. Spacing is a little different.
    2.6 doesn't corner worth a sh*t up front. I haven't even bothered to try the 2.4 up front. I probably will, before I give it away.

  19. #19
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    Options:

    -Forecaster 2.35 is a really grippy tire but it runs narrow and has fragile casing.
    -I have heard great reports about the 2.4 Recon as a front but I haven't ran it myself.
    -A 2.3 Minion DHF is an amazing front tire and by todays standards isn't crazy heavy.

    For all around riding trail riding I think a 2.3DHF up front and 2.35 Ikon on the rear, strikes a good balance between being relatively easy to pedal well still providing adequate grip.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    That is correct. You also used a summary method (averaging) to downplay the fact that the article shows riders over 31 psi in the rear. Out of 12 DH riders, 4 are at or over 29psi.

    I used DH as an example because thats the epitome of needing traction, and those guys run high. And on top of that, those sidewalls are already very stiff and can be ran lower. a DH tire at 30 psi is kind of like a normal tire at 35+ psi.

    Translating that over to XC and trail tires, 30 psi is a fairly moderate pressure for a thin walled tire. Guys like to pretend like thats unridable and its kind of silly.
    DH tires have big knobs and super sticky rubber they don't need low pressure to find grip. XC tires on the other hand need low pressure for grip.

    When I go to bike park I run 25-30psi in 2.5 tires. For the speeds and forces found in a bike park speed those pressures are amazing. When I am riding my XC bike with 2.25 aspens it is 16-20psi. Any higher pressure than that there is not a lot grip.

    Air pressure really need to adapted to match your tires and riding style.
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Translating that over to XC and trail tires, 30 psi is a fairly moderate pressure for a thin walled tire. Guys like to pretend like thats unridable and its kind of silly.
    I know this is off topic from thread by no means 30 psi is moderate for the average mountain biker that goes on these forums. Maybe when we were running tubes. The whole point of tubeless was to lower tire pressure for improved tractions and rolling resistance. And who runs thin walled tires? Everyone besides pure XC guys should be running EXO, Snakeskin, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    For all around riding trail riding I think a 2.3DHF up front and 2.35 Ikon on the rear, strikes a good balance between being relatively easy to pedal well still providing adequate grip.
    This is what I'm running, it works pretty well in most situations here in the mountains. The DHF could be lighter/faster and the Ikon could be grippier in wetter stuff, but its a pretty good compromise. I'm on a Santa Cruz Chameleon and I'm 200 pounds running 23F/28R.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    DH tires have big knobs and super sticky rubber they don't need low pressure to find grip. XC tires on the other hand need low pressure for grip.

    When I go to bike park I run 25-30psi in 2.5 tires. For the speeds and forces found in a bike park speed those pressures are amazing. When I am riding my XC bike with 2.25 aspens it is 16-20psi. Any higher pressure than that there is not a lot grip.

    Air pressure really need to adapted to match your tires and riding style.
    Isnt it fair to say that aspens just never have any grip? You can adjust down to make the most out of it, but they're aspens. They just dont grip.

    I run my race kings at 30 psi. They *should* be ran lower too, but in my experience RK's have more overall traction at 30 psi than my old XR3's had at 25.

    I think claiming that over x-pressure will bounce you off the trail is more hyperbole than anything. My higher pressure tire has more grip than a worse, lower pressure tire. But again, as it relates to the OP, hes on an ardent race up front. I dont think its anything but the tire itself.

    Everyone focused on the number, I dont think I mentioned im like 190-210lb riding. After running flat tires for years, I'm much more selective with tire choice these days, and less with pressure. It only took until post 6 until someone mentioned an even lower traction tire... I dont think putting a lower traction tire, in an attempt to gain traction, works. Even if you do run them low.

    If you watch the high level XC guys ride, they're absolute monsters. They can climb on an aspen and clear stuff that id spin a DHR out on at 20psi. Im not being ridiculous, I understand lower pressure means more traction for a given tire, all things being equal... but the "all things" is pretty huge and matters a lot is all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by durkind View Post
    I know this is off topic from thread by no means 30 psi is moderate for the average mountain biker that goes on these forums. Maybe when we were running tubes. The whole point of tubeless was to lower tire pressure for improved tractions and rolling resistance. And who runs thin walled tires? Everyone besides pure XC guys should be running EXO, Snakeskin, etc.
    Maybe thats why you went tubeless. For some of us, tubeless means making it more than 10 feet down a trail during thorn season without flatting. I cant even remember the last time I had to address a flat trail side.

    I remember when a decent sized group ride meant we were blowing about an hour per ride fixing flats for everyone. My worst was 2 tubes and 3 patches in one ride.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Isnt it fair to say that aspens just never have any grip? You can adjust down to make the most out of it, but they're aspens. They just dont grip.
    One part of tire development if you are part a tire development project is baselining tires against all the top competitors in a particular segment.

    Last year a friend was doing this for XC tires for a brand that shall remained unnamed. He tested a bunch of different tires including the aspens. After riding the Aspens he said "Man do those things ever grip." I looked at him in horror and said, "how terrifying are the tires you normally run"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by HT-XC View Post
    I've been running the Rekon in 2.25 and the Aspen in 2.25 on my old wheelset with 23mm id, which was pretty fast and grippy. Recently purchased a new wheelset with 28mm id and for that wheel I got some wider tires to go with: Ikon in 2.35 on the front and Rekon Race in 2.35 on the back. The Ikon in 2.35 is a much burlier tire than its small sibling in 2.2. The knobs are much larger and the threadpatern looks more aggressive than the Rekon in 2.25. I'll post some pics when I get home.
    OP is looking for more grip in less than ideal conditions (wet, loose, etc.) than his current Ardent Race 2.35. Both the Ikon 2.35 and Rekon 2.25 will be less grippy in those types of conditions. I've had all 3 of these at various points. Those two would be decent rear tire options, though, or OP could just move the AR 2.35 to the back if it still has a lot of life left in it.

    Ardent Race 2.35 / Rekon 2.25 is actually a super fun, fast rolling combo for dry or moderately wet, hardpack, loose over hard, rocky conditions but starts to have issues when things get really muddy or loose. They're actually closer in size than you'd think, and the tread on these kind of reminds me of a mini DHF/DHR2.

    If OP wants more grip in the front in those more demanding conditions, he needs bigger knobs. I think the next step up would be a Forekaster 2.35 or a Rekon 2.4. The Forekaster looks like it has excellent tread for mud, but for some dumb reason, the 2.35 only comes in a dual compound. A 3C Rekon 2.4 would probably grip better on wet roots and rocks. The Forekaster would probably dig in and clear a bit better when things are really loose or muddy, but the Rekon 3c would probably do better on wet rocks and roots and be a bit more of an all-arounder for dry, hardpack conditions. I can see how the DHR2 2.3 weighing in about the same as the Rekon 2.4 would be temping, but I don't think it will roll nearly as well as the Rekon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dlxah View Post
    You might be right; I've only seen photos of the 2.6. But the 2.6 is probably out of the question for OP anyway. I can say for sure that the 2.4 has much larger knobs than the 2.25. I have both.
    Ah, thatís interesting. Seems like the 2.25 versions of the Maxxis tires are all fundamentally different than the bigger versions. And the Rekon 2.6 measures just over 2.4 for me and pairs well with an Ikon 2.35.

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    1) 30+ psi is WAY too much to be running in the rear. Some DH'er's MIGHT do it only to avoid flats, but at a HUGE expense to climbing traction, about which they don't care.
    2) Get a Dissector 2.4 for the front. It slots nicely between XC tires and Minions, and is much better than a Rekon. And I'm a BIG Rekon fan.
    3) Forekaster was the most disappointing front tire I've ever run (not ran). It was sketchy on hardpack and didn't dig in at all on loose/loose over hard. These are just my opinions...
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmanInTheD View Post
    1) 30+ psi is WAY too much to be running in the rear. Some DH'er's MIGHT do it only to avoid flats, but at a HUGE expense to climbing traction, about which they don't care.
    2) Get a Dissector 2.4 for the front. It slots nicely between XC tires and Minions, and is much better than a Rekon. And I'm a BIG Rekon fan.
    3) Forekaster was the most disappointing front tire I've ever run (not ran). It was sketchy on hardpack and didn't dig in at all on loose/loose over hard. These are just my opinions...
    What are you running on rear to match with Dissector?

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    I'm glad someone finally knocked off this nonsense with these fronts that won't hold for crap and threw the Dissector in the mix. Fantastic middle of the ground front tire. I've run it with a rekon 2.4 out back and another Dissector out back. Take the weight penalty, corner with confidence. I enjoy pedaling the tire and just put two days in at the bike park with it as well. I have buddies fighting over available dissectors in my riding crew.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbrockenchain View Post
    What are you running on rear to match with Dissector?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuch View Post
    I'm glad someone finally knocked off this nonsense with these fronts that won't hold for crap and threw the Dissector in the mix. Fantastic middle of the ground front tire. I've run it with a rekon 2.4 out back and another Dissector out back. Take the weight penalty, corner with confidence. I enjoy pedaling the tire and just put two days in at the bike park with it as well. I have buddies fighting over available dissectors in my riding crew.
    Dude asked for XC tire recommendations and you guys are throwing out borderline enduro tires. Did I stumble into a Pinkbike forum by accident?

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    Maxxis - Looking for more grip than Ikon/Ardent Race combo...

    Quote Originally Posted by GiddyHitch View Post
    Dude asked for XC tire recommendations and you guys are throwing out borderline enduro tires. Did I stumble into a Pinkbike forum by accident?
    Was thinking the same thing....lightweight XC/Race tires. Iím thinking 600-800g weights.


    I would consider: Front/Rear

    Maxxis: Rekon / Ardent Race

    Vittoria: Barzo / Mezcal

    Bontrager: XR3 / XR2

    Schwalbe: ? Nobby Nick / Racing Ray / Rocket Ron / Racing Ralph?


    Thoughts?


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  34. #34
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    Even Nino is running 2.4ís guys. Lol. Sorry, I got a little off track with the dissector. Too many shoulder surgeries. I donít dabble with ďXCĒ tires anymore. I quit taking chances about 5 years ago and decided to pedal some weight and corner with confidence. It is indeed a bit out of the realm. Hope ya find something solid man!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GiddyHitch View Post
    Dude asked for XC tire recommendations and you guys are throwing out borderline enduro tires. Did I stumble into a Pinkbike forum by accident?
    He mentioned a DHR II as his "wild card" selection. I gave him a choice that was faster than that. A Rekon in front is debatably no more grippy than an Ardent Race that he has and the Forekaster sucks IMO so the next logical choice is a Dissector, at least as far as Maxxis. They're not light, but they roll pretty damn well and grip orders of magnitude better than AR, Rekon, or Forekaster.
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  36. #36
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    Here is a good test for you:
    Whatís the best Maxxis tyre for marathon and cross-country racing?
    https://marathonmtb.com/2017/07/13/maxxis-tyre-test/

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