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  1. #1
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    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?

    Hi guys

    I want to make my own set of polymer spokes.

    On a rope splice, which applies to any industry using high performance polymer rope, the bury is held in via a Chinese finger trap method.. this is typical for rope splicing. The glue does not take the load; it's only there to help the rope develop some initial tension and clamp down on the bury holding it via friction.

    The devil is in the details. splices tend to take a set and slip a bit, making the length difficult to get right.


    On to materials,
    After my research, it seems DM20 is the way to go for UHMWPE. It's a new material from DSM with massively improved creep characteristics.
    UHMWPE is so bad with creep, standard high performance materials would simply be unsuitable for spokes, until just a few years ago.
    I have a 100M reel of 1.8mm DM20...

    Another couple of options: Vectran and PBO. Both have good creep characteristics and could be used for spokes.
    Everything here applies to those too if you were to source 1.5-2.0mm Vectran or PBO.

    I have another idea to get the weight down to ~1.7g per spoke and an even better/easier design. Here is what I came up with:

    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-capture.png
    I am thinking to take a butted spoke, 2.3mm/2.00mm, and roll or press or stamp the end to 0.8mm thick to achieve an eye where it threads into the nipple. This way one could do a 2nd bury splice here eliminating the long metal bury. This part comes to ~0.65 g each and with a rope weight of about 1.2G = 1.85G per spoke!!

    This compares to about 2.5-2.6G per spoke I'm getting with Berd's method because of the longer steel spoke end that needs to be buried.

    The strength of the part is still a bit iffy. It would be better if we could find some 12g/14g butted spokes (2.6mm/2.0mm) so there's more material to smash to make the eye... or even 11g or 10g.
    That or the part could be made custom from scratch...
    I know several manufacturers whom could make such a part but it would need to be a pretty large qty to be cost effective.
    For example:
    https://www.gallmachine.com/gallery
    THB, a spoke manufacter would be best suited to make such a part...

    Here is a "quick" FEA assuming 60,000psi yield strength. I know alot of spoke manufacturers get their yeild strength to 120,000psi and up, but's it's still pretty iffy and more material would be nice.

    (link incoming)
    Last edited by okashira; 01-27-2019 at 03:13 PM.

  2. #2
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    In the amount of time it took you to type that post, I could have ordered some double butted DT spokes. Kinda like the ones on my Chris King hub/Dt spokes/WTB Frequency Team rim that has been solid for 5 years of 1500-2000 ft descents. Granted, that wheelset should implode at any moment (really, its thrashed). Sorry to be kinda brutal, but just buy some spokes and go ride your bike, man. You dont need to re invent the wheel. Too mean?

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    Cool story, bro

    Here's the image


    Pretty iffy.. that's only 100kgf load.
    Maybe a good choice for a high spoke count wheel and 1.5mm line.
    I think it might be better to get some 12ga spokes and belt sand down and end to 2.0mm for threading, use the 12ga section to create the eye.

    I think I'll focus on making a wheel with the "spear" method first... getting distracted.
    Last edited by okashira; 10-29-2018 at 12:01 PM.

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    I can see how this could be viewed by some as a waste of time, but count me interested.

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  5. #5
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    Yes, its interesting. I would like to ride some of these sring wheels. OP got me to check out Berd Spoke site.

  6. #6
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    I still think there's got to be a way to do it without splicing. Everything I've thought of so far though would be a skosh heavier... still lighter than steel, though.

  7. #7
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    I like where you're going with this.

    Another option is to make the anchor out of aluminum - easier to manufacture, lighter, allows for custom colors. Bump up the diameter of the threads and make the nipple an internal nipple like the I9 spoke system.

    Prototyping could be done with 3d printing. In fact you could send the CAD model you have to a number of companies and have examples in your hand in a few days.

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    Interested in what okashira comes up with.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Capture.PNG 
Views:	321 
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ID:	1222704
    I am thinking to take a butted spoke, 2.3mm/2.00mm, and roll or press or stamp the end to 0.8mm thick to achieve an eye where it threads into the nipple. This way one could do a 2nd bury splice here eliminating the long metal bury. This part comes to ~0.65 g each and with a rope weight of about 1.2G = 1.85G per spoke!!
    This is the way to go. You're taking advantage of the ability to splice rope and saving weight as a result, plus you're doing away with the inelegant super-glued spoke shaft mechanism.

    You're basically looking for a 2-56 (2mm x 56 tpi) eyebolt which can thread into a standard alloy nipple. The threads should be long enough to compensate for any variation in string lengths. Something in the likeness of this:

    Name:  eyebolt.png
Views: 2218
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    A 2-56 alloy eyebolt like this likely isn't commercially available, but I bet it could be stamped quite easily. Ti might also be practicable, but more expensive.

    Using eyebolts over inserted spoke shafts is an advantage when building the wheel, since twisting the rope can be prevented during nipple tensioning. It also has the potential to be lighter.

    For the critics out there, please quit sucking the life out of innovation. Berd has a cool product, and they've worked hard to protect their idea and market opportunity. But I think it's possible to do even better than Berd, so why not just let this guy figure it out? I'm subbed and may be ready to jump in on the project financially if needed.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    I still think there's got to be a way to do it without splicing. Everything I've thought of so far though would be a skosh heavier... still lighter than steel, though.
    This is basically what Pi-Rope is doing, using adhesive (I presume), although I'm not sure. In any case, they are using different materials.

    Thing is, if you want it to be as light as possible, you don't want to be using materials other than the rope as much as possible. So on the hub end you have to splice to avoid using a bolt of sorts, and you can't just tie a knot because that will creep.

    On the nipple end of the spoke you've either got to use a threaded spoke shaft inserted into the core of the rope, or do another splice around an eyebolt of sorts. Either way, it's going to be very labor-intensive.
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  11. #11
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    Just remembering now here that a Fiber Fix spoke does not use the threads at first, only for adjustment. It cinches under its own tension - sort of like the finger cuff mentioned above.

    Has anyone built a whole wheel with Fiber Fix spokes? Only sort of kidding :-D

    Photo found at Peter White Cycles
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-fiberfix.jpg  


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    Just sent out a swarm of Alibaba inquiries for rod-shaped alloy M2 eyebolts, specifically asking for a 30mm 56tpi-threaded rod immediately adjacent to an eye of 4mm in diameter. I set my MOQ to 1000 but said I was flexible. I also asked what kind of tension these bolts can handle, and, if it helps at all, said the bolt should be lightweight.

    I'll see what kind of information I can learn, and whether these bolts could be a viable option.
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    I dont know why the FEA image doesnt work; try here:

    https://i.imgur.com/BKNIEwH.gif

    I did find a #2-56 threaded eyebolt commercial
    https://www.amazon.com/Sullivan-Prod.../dp/B0006O8OA8
    But I don't need to do an FEA to determine that would be way to weak. Probably wouldn't even take 15kg.

    @sissypants 2mm hole.
    I can make some drawings and cad file if you want to send to suppliers.

    I can easily prototype this by brazing the threaded end of a spoke to a drilled piece of spring steel(for strength) sheet with a hole drilled.
    That or I can use a press and stamp and end of a 2.6mm spoke.
    My chinese carbon rim came in over the weekend, and it's only drilled for internal nipples 14g. So I can't fit anything larger then that. :-/ If I use a 12g spoke I'll need to machine one end down to 2.0mm and thread it.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    Just sent out a swarm of Alibaba inquiries for rod-shaped alloy M2 eyebolts, specifically asking for a 30mm 56tpi-threaded rod immediately adjacent to an eye of 4mm in diameter. I set my MOQ to 1000 but said I was flexible. I also asked what kind of tension these bolts can handle, and, if it helps at all, said the bolt should be lightweight.

    I'll see what kind of information I can learn, and whether these bolts could be a viable option.
    I don't know if you did mentioned it, but spoke threads should be rolled instead of cut.

    Other option that occurred to me was to bend a spoke and braze it with brass.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    @sissypants 2mm hole.
    I can make some drawings and cad file if you want to send to suppliers.
    Any drawings would help! I am hopeless with CAD even though I've tried, if I could redo my education I'd go for mechanical engineering

    This is the best I've done

    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-picture1.png

    A 2mm hole would be just enough to fit a 1.8mm rope, but I guess that's all that's needed?

    I think made-to-order Titanium bolts would actually be the best bet -- stronger and lighter. They also won't be too expensive. Titanium right from the manufacturer is much cheaper than bike-specific parts sold by the piece on Amazon from second-party dealers.

    I think your plan for a prototype bolt would work, but I wouldn't want to repeat that 24, 28, or 32 times! I think some bolt can be sourced that will be strong enough and affordable.

    I'm putting my bets either on Allied Titanium or a specialty Titanium bolt manufacturer in Shenzhen, China. Inquiries sent to both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    I don't know if you did mentioned it, but spoke threads should be rolled instead of cut.
    Good point, thanks for that!

    Other option that occurred to me was to bend a spoke and braze it with brass.
    I'm not sure I see what you're after?
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    Your drawing is pretty good. Yes I don't think we need more then 2mm. If we end up sourcing 2mm rope we may need something like 2.1mm to fit it.
    just add another thing to your drawing:
    outside diameter around the 2mm hole ~4-5mm
    Change 30mm to ~20-22mm maybe.
    Titanium with rolled threads would be nice.
    On that note this could be another source for DM20 in something like 1.5mm - 2mm size. Just remove the polyester cover. I have some samples coming.
    https://www.mastrant.com/on-line-sho...-m-3-mm-1-8-in
    https://www.mastrant.com/on-line-sho...m-2-mm-3-32-in

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    Good point, thanks for that!



    I'm not sure I see what you're after?
    I think he means take a 14gauge spoke, bend it around to make an eye and braze it.
    I am not sure it will be strong enough (it will elongate the eye.)

  19. #19
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    If a supplier has trouble with the #2-56 threads, perhaps just ask them to supply 2mm rod only.
    Then they can be rolled manually with a Hozan tool.
    On that note, does anyone have a Hozan tool? I would like to know how close to an eye the hozan tool can roll threads. What sort of spacing to the flange from the end of the threads is needed?
    I know a Phil wood tool will not work. It will only roll about 10mm of threads. We need 15-20mm IMHO.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    I think he means take a 14gauge spoke, bend it around to make an eye and braze it.
    I am not sure it will be strong enough (it will elongate the eye.)
    Yes, that's what I meant.
    The elongation of the eye, and if the braze will hold are my biggest concerns, but wanted to post to know your thoughts on it.

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    Shouldn't the inside of the eye around the corners be less sharp, or it's not a problem?

    If we are passing the splice through the eye shouldn't the eye be a bit bigger as we are passing "two" threads through it?

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    I'll take okashira's recommendation to reduce the rolled thread length to 20mm. I'm a weight weenie after all. Here's the updated drawing. I'm currently negotiating with Allied Titanium.
    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-bolt-specs.jpg

    Can a Hozan tool roll Titanium? It might be intended for only alloy and steel, pardon my ignorance.

    I'm afraid that bending a spoke to make an eye would severely compromise the strength of the material and it might not hold, although I like the idea. It's not hard to bend a spoke, so unbending that wouldn't be too hard either.

    That Mastrant rope looks really affordable! Are you sure the DM20 rope is easy to extract? Is it just a matter of pulling it out? Or did they use adhesive of any sort?
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    Thinking outside the container here, but what if the spoke was a loop of material? It would then require only one splice and it can be a rope splice, which I think is easier. It will double up the spoke, but theoretically the tension in each half of the loop will be half the total spoke tension, so you could use half the rope diameter. It should save weight because you only need metal on the nipple side. See attached diagram.

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    Quote Originally Posted by d-ron View Post
    Thinking outside the container here, but what if the spoke was a loop of material? It would then require only one splice and it can be a rope splice, which I think is easier. It will double up the spoke, but theoretically the tension in each half of the loop will be half the total spoke tension, so you could use half the rope diameter. It should save weight because you only need metal on the nipple side. See attached diagram.

    Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
    I mentioned the loop idea in the other thread (ha) and that's what the Fiber Fix does. But the cow hitch won't work, the rope is too big to pass two strands through.

    It would be cool to have a system that did not rely on getting the length exactly right on every spoke.

    If you were designing this from scratch it wouldn't be out of line to make a hub to go with them...

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    Or a rim

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    Copy all. This is a neat design exercise here. I'm really curious to see how it turns out. Keep us updated.

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    Just for the record, it is entirely possible that a rope/fiber supplier would consider or give an exclusive supply agreement to one player in the bicycle or spoke industry.

    Kind of a precarious way to protect an "invention," but stranger things have worked. Berd may be applying for a patent, also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    I think made-to-order Titanium bolts would actually be the best bet -- stronger and lighter. They also won't be too expensive. Titanium right from the manufacturer is much cheaper than bike-specific parts sold by the piece on Amazon from second-party dealers.

    I think your plan for a prototype bolt would work, but I wouldn't want to repeat that 24, 28, or 32 times! I think some bolt can be sourced that will be strong enough and affordable.

    I'm putting my bets either on Allied Titanium or a specialty Titanium bolt manufacturer in Shenzhen, China. Inquiries sent to both.
    Titanium is a poor design choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Titanium is a poor design choice.
    What is a better design choice? I'm no materials expert but I thought titanium was about four times as strong as alloy. Going with steel would defeat the purpose.
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    Aluminum would fill the strength requirements while being cheaper and lighter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by d-ron View Post
    Thinking outside the container here, but what if the spoke was a loop of material? It would then require only one splice and it can be a rope splice, which I think is easier. It will double up the spoke, but theoretically the tension in each half of the loop will be half the total spoke tension, so you could use half the rope diameter. It should save weight because you only need metal on the nipple side. See attached diagram.

    Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
    Cool idea, but yeah, I'm afraid the cow hitch would be a bit challenging. I could see threading this through a straight pull hub itself, but then the wheel builder is the one who has to do the rope splicing, and that gets challenging very quickly. You could use a hook instead of an eyebolt at the nipple site, but then you have an issue of spokes falling off the hook when not tensioned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    Shouldn't the inside of the eye around the corners be less sharp, or it's not a problem?

    If we are passing the splice through the eye shouldn't the eye be a bit bigger as we are passing "two" threads through it?

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    Yes it's a problem. They need to be nicely rounded. This can be done manually or by the supplier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    Shouldn't the inside of the eye around the corners be less sharp, or it's not a problem?

    If we are passing the splice through the eye shouldn't the eye be a bit bigger as we are passing "two" threads through it?

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    I'm not going to pass the splices thru the eye; not a fan of the method. I prefer to splice directly into the hub. This also allows for a smaller hole.
    Like this
    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-capture.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Aluminum would fill the strength requirements while being cheaper and lighter.
    I think that is iffy. The problem is the threads. They will work initially for some rolled 7075; but will fail with fatigue.

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    Yes you can do that. I think it wouldn't look as nice though. :-D
    youtube how to splice a continuous loop.

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    I suppose 7075 or better could work. The nipples are aluminum after-all. But I wouldn't want to do with 14g. 13g would be better. male threads are weaker then female, especially at this small size.
    Are there 13g aluminum nipples?

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    What prevents one from building a wheel from one continuous string, tensioned at a single nipple? The string would be threaded in the order in which a wheel is typically built.

    In theory, at least...
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    What prevents one from building a wheel from one continuous string, tensioned at a single nipple? The string would be threaded in the order in which a wheel is typically built.

    In theory, at least...
    Have fun truing your wheel :-P
    And your final tension adjustment would need to be crazy long... like 200mm!

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    (...)
    Are there 13g aluminum nipples?
    Sapim makes them, don't know how hard is to source them.


    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    What prevents one from building a wheel from one continuous string, tensioned at a single nipple? The string would be threaded in the order in which a wheel is typically built.

    In theory, at least...
    I like the way you think, but I don't think that will work.
    And imagine if a spoke fails, you would be biting the dust real quick :/.

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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    Have fun truing your wheel :-P
    And your final tension adjustment would need to be crazy long... like 200mm!
    Oops I knew I was underthinking something. Now I feel stupid :/

    Your splice into the hub is really nice, it looks sharp!
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    If we are passing the splice through the eye shouldn't the eye be a bit bigger as we are passing "two" threads through it?
    So there are two ways I see how to do this:

    1. Splice through a 2mm eye (so the loop passes through the eye) such that the rope is only 1.8mm thick.

    2. Use the splice joint as a "knot" to prevent passing through the 2mm eye, such that the rope will be 3.6mm thick at this point.

    The loop itself will not be 3.6mm thick, it will only be 1.8mm thick.

    I hadn't considered #2 until I re-read your post. Maybe #2 is the best way to go, since otherwise the spoke will have to be spliced onto the hub (the way okashira is doing it) AND onto the eyebolt. This would be unreasonably demanding for a non-DIY project and also make controlling the length of the rope quite challenging.

    Although I really like how okashira splices right onto the hub since that is the cleanest solution, I'm inclined to build the spoke without the hub or eyebolt, and use the splice joints as stable "knots". Think about how hard it would be to replace a spoke if you didn't have your splicing tools on hand, or didn't know how to splice.
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  42. #42
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    Here is a improved design.
    This one assumes a 2mm shaft butted to 2.7mm. Smash the 2.7mm end to 1.17mm thick.Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-capture1.jpg
    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-capture2.png

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    This one still only weighs 0.86g.
    304 or 302 stainless is probably the best starting point. It's cold worked so easily and the same material used for most spokes already.

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    Impressive stuff here
    https://www.armare.it/en/arc?arc[ide...catoreCalza]=0

    1mm and 200kg break strength!!
    Could make amazing spokes for race spec wheels.
    Use thinner 2.0.2.3 butted spokes with the smaller hole and go for 60kg max tension.
    Coulld be pretty aero (1mm!!!) and ~1.7g per spoke.

    SK99 means creep, though.
    The 1.5mm stuff is good for 450kg

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    I think that is iffy. The problem is the threads. They will work initially for some rolled 7075; but will fail with fatigue.
    Al spokes (yes, with threads) have been done for decades.

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    With 14ga threads?

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    The last design is no good.
    Pressing the eye to one side puts too side load and bends the threads.
    I'll revise and center it again

    Ignore this, bad analysis.
    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-1.gif
    Last edited by okashira; 10-30-2018 at 03:07 AM.

  48. #48
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    Centered...

    I do take it back on the above analysis.
    I assumed that the load was parallel to the shaft. In reality the splice and the nipple can swivel. I think either design will work.
    Attachment 1222941
    Attachment 1222942

  49. #49
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    I think I have a problem. How can one end of the rope be spliced onto the hub AND the other end be spliced onto the eyebolt?

    There are two directions to approach this, neither of which work:

    1. Splice the rope onto the hub using a standard Brummel lock
    2. Splice the eyebolt onto the rope using a one-side-fixed Brummel lock, but it's impossible to pull the eye through point A (see 0:57 here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WW7Qvg3VjI) because the bolt is fixed inside the loop. The bolt will be at least 4mm in diameter at its widest point.

    Alternatively,

    1. Splice the eyebolt onto the rope with a standard Brummel lock
    2. Splice the rope onto the hub using a one-side-fixed Brummel lock, but again, it's impossible to pull the eye through point A (see 0:57 of above video) because the loop is fixed to the hub.

    So the eyebolt has to go first no matter what. The only way I see this working is the following:

    1. Use a rope with 1mm diameter (small enough that a spliced loop can fit through a hub spoke hole
    2. Splice the eyebolt onto the rope with a standard Brummel lock
    3. Splice a loop into the other end of the rope with a one-side-fixed Brummel lock.
    4. Pull the loop through the spoke hole in the hub
    5. Secure the loop in place behind the spoke hole in the hub using a small metal rod (old spoke?) and simultaneously engage the eyebolt with the rim nipple to maintain tension on the spoke. Maintaining tension will prevent the small metal rod from falling out.

    All of the sudden this is getting way too complicated, and we need a 1mm rope made from a non-DM20 material.

    So, I'd like to consider a point brought up previously by d-ron of using a continuous loop. In this case the rope would be spliced once after being threaded through both the hub and the eyebolt. However, we are now using twice as much rope, so weight savings are negligible. Hence, once again this is not satisfactory.

    Maybe threaded spoke shafts are the only way to go?
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    You can just use the method okashira posted on the other thread.

    https://youtu.be/9ND8Gfk_bVI

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    You can just use the method okashira posted on the other thread.

    https://youtu.be/9ND8Gfk_bVI
    Thanks for bringing that back up! I guess that works. A stitched whipping isn't as solid as a physical lock in the splice, but as long as the spoke stays under tension it should work fine, I guess.
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  52. #52
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    I don't see how you can do a splice at both ends and maintain the tolerances you need

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    I don't see how you can do a splice at both ends and maintain the tolerances you need
    1. Make a Brummel lock splice at one end of the DM20 rope
    2. Measure the desired length on the rope from the end of the loop created in step #1 and mark with a sharpie (mark A). Make two additional marks (mark B & C) 5mm on either side of the first mark.
    3. Slide the eyebolt so that it covers mark A.
    4. Perform a simple splice into the rope through mark B, then pull the rope through until mark B and C are both at the junction of the loop.
    5. Pull the rope taught and fasten with a stitched whipping.

    To install the spoke, you'd pull the loop through the hub flange just like Berd does and secure it with a small piece of rope before pulling it back taut.

    You could even do steps #2-5 on the wheel with the eyebolt engaged with the nipple 1-2 turns, so you know your spoke length will be correct. Then you have ~15mm for additional tension.
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    A bury splice is actually stronger then a brummel lock splice. Because the lock puts shear stress on the line. That said a lock splice may be a better choice for tolerances...

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    Here is how to do lock splice with one side already in the hub
    https://youtu.be/4WW7Qvg3VjI

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    'You could even do steps #2-5 on the wheel with the eyebolt engaged with the nipple 1-2 turns, so you know your spoke length will be correct. Then you have ~15mm for additional tension."


    This is exactly what I plan to do. Even better if you make a jig that has you make the splice while the eye is threaded into a dummy wheel that will intentionally make the line a couple mm too short. Then rely on splice and line settling to get that extra 2mm back

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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    A bury splice is actually stronger then a brummel lock splice. Because the lock puts shear stress on the line.
    Ha, a bury splice is so much easier and faster. Come to think of it you're right about it being stronger (when under tension). Is there any need to do a stitched whipping? That's mostly superficial, right?

    Simplified plan:

    1. Make a bury splice at one end of the DM20 rope around hub flange
    2. Engage the eye bolt 2 turns into the nipple on the rim, run the rope through the nipple, and pull taut.
    3. Make a bury splice as tightly as possible around the eyebolt and pull rope taut.

    I'm pretty optimistic about this, it might not take so long to actually do this.
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    The most annoying part of the splice is the taper. I have an idea to make that faster... so like a 15 degree cut with a 3d printed jig for a fast taper...

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    Here is the new drawing since the prior attachment looks broken.
    Added more thread length. I figured you can always cut it off if you're an advanced weight weanie. The extra gives more leeway for tensioning and tolerancing your splicing.
    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-capture.jpg
    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-capture2.png

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    So the point of the extra length is it for taking up more strain than steel? Or is for extra tolerance on spoke length? This is not a single-wall rim but you might get to a point where the threads are scratching through the rim strip.

    And meanwhile: how do you keep the spoke from twisting when you tension it? Do you have a certain spoke wrench in mind? Is there one that's like an end wrench, like the turnbuckle wrench that comes with R/C cars? I don't see how my Park wrench or a spokey would do it.

    On the splices: I still feel like you guys are making this harder because you want to be cleverer. If you make a loop, you can make a spoke that can be removed like a normal spoke and has one splice to do. Make two splices with one onto the hub and it can't. I'm sure that's why the Berd version has only one.

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    The extra length is for several reasons

    1.) the spoke do stretch more then steel, maybe 50%
    2.) there is also a small amount of viscoelastic stretch, hence need to retension after a day.
    3.) to account for rope settling and splice settling
    4.) to make it easier to get the length right

    If the threads are too long, and about to pierce the rim tape, you can always cut the end of the thread off.

    I am not sure that a loop is any easier then two eye splices. With a loop splice you have to do two buries anyway, which is the most annoying part. And it may be harder to get the length right. It may also be less aesthetically pleasing.
    One benefit would be that you can use 1mm line, and a much smaller hole would be needed in the eyebolt we're designing, making it possible to manufacturer from a 2.3/2.0 butted spoke (ie Sapim Strong)

    I ordered some Sapim Strong and Sapim 12g spokes to start testing making a pressed end eye bolt.

    Does anyone have a Hozan threader I can use? :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    So the point of the extra length is it for taking up more strain than steel? Or is for extra tolerance on spoke length? This is not a single-wall rim but you might get to a point where the threads are scratching through the rim strip.

    And meanwhile: how do you keep the spoke from twisting when you tension it? Do you have a certain spoke wrench in mind? Is there one that's like an end wrench, like the turnbuckle wrench that comes with R/C cars? I don't see how my Park wrench or a spokey would do it.

    On the splices: I still feel like you guys are making this harder because you want to be cleverer. If you make a loop, you can make a spoke that can be removed like a normal spoke and has one splice to do. Make two splices with one onto the hub and it can't. I'm sure that's why the Berd version has only one.
    Yes you need to hold the end (eyebolt) to keep the rope from twisting. I used an open ended wrench and pliers. But it's better to use an external spoke wrench.

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    What about fishing knots? I recall the note in the other thread about knots pulling loose but there's a whole class of them that uses lots of friction from multiple wraps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    So the point of the extra length is it for taking up more strain than steel? Or is for extra tolerance on spoke length? This is not a single-wall rim but you might get to a point where the threads are scratching through the rim strip.
    Most carbon rims are at least 25mm deep, which amounts to the distance between the internal rim bed and the external rim bed being about 18-20mm, plus the nipple is another 10mm inside of the wheel compared to the internal rim bed, so you have at least 28m of usable distance in most carbon rims. This would not work for single-wall alloy rims, however (like my Mulefuts).

    I do think it's really important to have as much threaded length as is reasonable because it will be tricky getting precise tolerances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    And meanwhile: how do you keep the spoke from twisting when you tension it? Do you have a certain spoke wrench in mind? Is there one that's like an end wrench, like the turnbuckle wrench that comes with R/C cars? I don't see how my Park wrench or a spokey would do it.
    Okashira is spot on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    On the splices: I still feel like you guys are making this harder because you want to be cleverer. If you make a loop, you can make a spoke that can be removed like a normal spoke and has one splice to do. Make two splices with one onto the hub and it can't. I'm sure that's why the Berd version has only one.
    Again, Okashira is right on. You end up still having to introduce two splices, plus use thinner line (which can be broken or cut through more easily). You also have that "looks different" element, which I'm not a fan of. You lose that "aero" contour in the center of the spoke as well (not that it matters that much), plus you're going to end up using more rope total per spoke (by at least 1.5x).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    What about fishing knots? I recall the note in the other thread about knots pulling loose but there's a whole class of them that uses lots of friction from multiple wraps.
    Knots can weaken the tensile strength of dyneema (and most ropes) by up to 70%. If we're using 2mm rope, this might not be a huge problem, but a simple splice looks like it will be almost as easy as tying a good knot once you get the process down, plus you don't decrease tensile strength.
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    I got my first official quote for eyebolts today, $1/piece in Grade 5 titanium. Rolled threads. Excludes shipping, tax, and payment fees, so probably more like $1.25 per piece all said and done.

    I think I'll get at least two much cheaper quotes in 7075 aluminum alloy, more like $0.10-$0.25/piece.

    7075 alloy is 36% lighter than Ti anyway. I know it's not as durable, but hey, we use alloy nipples.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    What about fishing knots? I recall the note in the other thread about knots pulling loose but there's a whole class of them that uses lots of friction from multiple wraps.

    Tying a knot in 2mm uhmwpe doesn't work very well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    I got my first official quote for eyebolts today, $1/piece in Grade 5 titanium. Rolled threads. Excludes shipping, tax, and payment fees, so probably more like $1.25 per piece all said and done.

    I think I'll get at least two much cheaper quotes in 7075 aluminum alloy, more like $0.10-$0.25/piece.

    7075 alloy is 36% lighter than Ti anyway. I know it's not as durable, but hey, we use alloy nipples.
    If you take the i9 spokes as an example, you will see they are much thicker and butted, don't think you will be able to get the eyebolt thick enough to keep them durable unless you use internal nipples also custom made.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    If you take the i9 spokes as an example, you will see they are much thicker and butted, don't think you will be able to get the eyebolt thick enough to keep them durable unless you use internal nipples also custom made.
    I have nothing against sourcing custom internal nipples and making wider bolts, but I'm not sure why the eyebolt needs to be thicker than 2mm if that works for normal spokes? Going above-and-beyond on a weight-weenie project is kind of counterintuitive.

    We will, on average, be engaging all of the nipple threads compared to typical wheel builds where only a few threads are engaged, on average.
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  70. #70
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    So far $1/piece in Grade 5 titanium (MOQ 1000pcs) is my best quote, that's from Baoji Metals Ltd. I'm trying to get them to agree to a "test" batch of 150 pieces at that price.

    In 7075 alloy I have a quote from Dongguan Weimi Technology looking at $1.45/pc. for 1,000 pieces, $1.06/pc. for 2,000 pieces. Left-hand threads are rolled. Expensive! I'm trying to get them to $1.45/pc for 500 pieces or $1.06/pc. for 1,000 pieces.

    Eight other places turned me down right away because they only make bolts M3-M5 or larger, or because my MOQ was too small.
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  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    I have nothing against sourcing custom internal nipples and making wider bolts, but I'm not sure why the eyebolt needs to be thicker than 2mm if that works for normal spokes?
    But it's not really about thread engagement, it's about the cross section at the thread minor diameter. Steel is much stronger at a given section. Aluminum spokes use bigger threads from what I can learn

  72. #72
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    Perhaps I've missed it here, but how are you going to get the eyebolt through the spoke hole? Assuming that you're going to affix it (and the threaded rod) to the spoke before lacing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    But it's not really about thread engagement, it's about the cross section at the thread minor diameter. Steel is much stronger at a given section. Aluminum spokes use bigger threads from what I can learn
    Yeah, you're right. Ti is best, but man this is getting expensive. I'm feeling my wallet and am hesitant to take on 1,000 Ti bolts.

    $1/bolt @ 1,000 pcs
    $14/100ft. DM20 rope
    $20 small rope puller/splicer

    The bolts make this investment pretty crazy considering I already have 4.3g Pillar X-tra Aero spokes and will only be dropping 100g on the wheelset.

    I can't decide...

    On the other hand, I have spokes laying around. Might as well cut them up and spear them into some rope for starters, then go from there.
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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Perhaps I've missed it here, but how are you going to get the eyebolt through the spoke hole? Assuming that you're going to affix it (and the threaded rod) to the spoke before lacing?
    In the proposed system, the eyebolt fastens to the nipple, the spoke/rope is spliced through the eye of the eyebolt. At the hub, the spoke is spliced to either fasten like a Berd spoke with a small fragment of rope or is spliced directly into the hub.

    The eyebolt would never need to be pulled through the spoke hole because either 1) the hub side of the spoke is spliced directly onto the spoke, or 2) the splice on the hub side of the spoke can be shoved/pulled backwards through the spoke hole (spoke hole can be drilled bigger or beveled if need be).
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    I should have looked up the splices long before. I thought I needed to braid rope back on itself like I learned in Scouts 30 years ago when we made rope out of twine, and then forgot 29 years ago when I never did it again. But it's just grabbing the end and pulling it through. Gonna stop complaining about it now!

    I did note one website said to bury it 72 times its diameter for Dyneema. That's 5-1/2 inches for 2mm rope. Really?

  76. #76
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    How is wheel building going to go? Are we going to build a wheel with wire spokes and replace them one at a time? I guess there's a minimum wheel build you could do with six or eight spokes a side that would hold its shape before you go in and snug it all up

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    How is wheel building going to go? Are we going to build a wheel with wire spokes and replace them one at a time?
    I'm planning lacing the wheel width rope spokes from the start, I don't see the point of lacing them first with steel spokes.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    I have nothing against sourcing custom internal nipples and making wider bolts, but I'm not sure why the eyebolt needs to be thicker than 2mm if that works for normal spokes? Going above-and-beyond on a weight-weenie project is kind of counterintuitive.

    We will, on average, be engaging all of the nipple threads compared to typical wheel builds where only a few threads are engaged, on average.
    What Darth Lefty said.
    The i9 spokes aren't "super" thick at the thread and thicker than normal spokes in general to look cool, they have to be thicker than steel spokes to support the same tension.

  79. #79
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    I thought it might be easy to buy a box of steel 2-56 eye bolts just to try out the technique, but so far I can only find them in $3 4-packs with nuts, carded for hobby stores. I guess they aren't that standard. Seems like they bottom out at 6-32.

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    I will do one of my DT swiss x1700 first, then my new chinese rim. Have not started. Was still waiting on my DM20.

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    Rope finally came in
    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-mnvx9pe.jpg
    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-m2l2iex.jpg

    I 3d print this to help get nice clean cuts.
    I forgot to add another cut at like a 15 degree angle to make a fast taper.
    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-kznqrcc.jpg

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    yeah that may be overkill as long as you keep it tensioned.
    I think you an get away with 90mm = 3.6"

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    @sissypants
    some quick replies

    I think grade 5 titanium isn't strong enough. Needs to be an alloy.

    I think 304 ss aka 18-10 ss is a better starting point:
    Its inexpensive
    It cold works like a champ
    It's great with fatigue

    You can send the drawings I made to the suppliers....
    I can also ask some american companies.
    We can also consider a mini kickstarter to raise funds and distribute the eyebolts.

    let's do some prototyping first to make sure the design is even any good anyway.

    I really want to stick with 14ga because I have not seen 13ga or 12ga aluminum nipples
    and my Chinese rim is for 14g only!

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    I think grade 5 titanium isn't strong enough. Needs to be an alloy. I think 304 ss aka 18-10 ss is a better starting point
    304 ss is also nearly 3x heavier than 7075 alloy and still much heavier than grade 5 titanium. But we need something that works, so if you think it'll do I'm all for it!

    You're still getting a <1g weight calculation from your updated model for 304 ss, correct?

    You can send the drawings I made to the suppliers....
    Will do. It would be great if you ask some American companies as well.

    We can also consider a mini kickstarter to raise funds and distribute the eyebolts.
    Definitely, happy to help and happy to pledge, let me know how you want to do that. Send a PM if you want or just start something.

    I really want to stick with 14ga because I have not seen 13ga or 12ga aluminum nipples
    Sounds good.

    That 3D printed apparatus is sweet!
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    I'm afraid that bending a spoke to make an eye would severely compromise the strength of the material and it might not hold, although I like the idea. It's not hard to bend a spoke, so unbending that wouldn't be too hard either.
    Circling back to this (heh heh) I remembered that Z-bend spokes were a thing. If those worked then so should a loop. If there's a sort of latch effect happening from how the Z bend loads up then we can make a latch behind our loop by wrapping it once back around. Not unlike this safety pin style, though I'm imagining a much shorter loop https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt...5408/204276312

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    0.95G for the longer threads. You could cut it down the threads and it would be 0.83g.

    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-capture.jpg
    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-capture2.jpg

    If you want to do titanium, it has to be Ti 6Al-4V and heat treated, and then the threads rolled. Yes I think the Hozan threader could roll them.
    It would be iffy though. I am not sure titanium spokes use 14g. They might use 13g.
    Ti-6Q2 (Ti-62222s) might work, but I guarantee you the Chinese won't have that alloy. They will have 6Al-4V, though. It's very common.
    If we can find 13g aluminum nipples, i can redesign the part for 13g to beef it up a bit, and maybe the weight comes down to ~0.6-0.7g with 6Al-4V.
    Note the dyneema is like 1.1-1.2g total weight comes to like 2.1-2.2g with the dyneema and the longer 304ss end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    Circling back to this (heh heh) I remembered that Z-bend spokes were a thing. If those worked then so should a loop. If there's a sort of latch effect happening from how the Z bend loads up then we can make a latch behind our loop by wrapping it once back around. Not unlike this safety pin style, though I'm imagining a much shorter loop https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt...5408/204276312
    I had to think for 3sec on what you were talking about with Z-bend .

    When I was talking about bending a spoke and braze it with brass I was referring to something like the picture bellow, the yellowish area is where the braze is made.

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  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    0.95G for the longer threads. You could cut it down the threads and it would be 0.83g.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    (...)

    okashira do you think the 1.1mm thickness of the eye will be ok, will not this value cause too much stress on the fibers?

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    I thought 1.1 is ok for 1.8mm line, based on gut feeling. 0.8mm was not, that's why I made it thicker.
    We can test it.
    It does need to be nicely rounded.
    I can buy a 300kg scale and do some break testing with a wench.

    According to sampson , they say at least 3:1... which means we need 1.8*3 = 5.4mm! 4.5mm with a 1.5mm line

    But that's for safety applications with lots of movement of the eye. In our case, the eye will be pretty stationary, it's worth testing?

    Page 38:
    http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/...Manual_WEB.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    In the proposed system, the eyebolt fastens to the nipple, the spoke/rope is spliced through the eye of the eyebolt. At the hub, the spoke is spliced to either fasten like a Berd spoke with a small fragment of rope or is spliced directly into the hub.

    The eyebolt would never need to be pulled through the spoke hole because either 1) the hub side of the spoke is spliced directly onto the spoke, or 2) the splice on the hub side of the spoke can be shoved/pulled backwards through the spoke hole (spoke hole can be drilled bigger or beveled if need be).

    Huh. OK. Sounds needlessly complex.

    ...i say as i sit on the sidelines fascinated by where this is (potentially) going.

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    If we're gonna source parts custom, I will design a new part with better bend radius for the eye. If anyone finds a or knows of a 13g aluminum nipple, I can design one for 13g and titanium alloy. With ti alloy ends we could end up with really strong spokes at just 1.9g each, but wouldn't be worth it if there aren't any aluminum nipples like 14g.

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    Any theories what Berd's "customized coating" might be?

    I'm seeing why Berd have done it with a regular spoke end. They don't need to get the length of the string very precise if they're sliding it over a couple inches of spoke end.

    Do you suppose they have roughed up the spoke so the bury works better? or would that abrade the string

    On the other hand, windup: With the eye you will be able to use an end wrench on the nipple and put an Allen wrench through the eye, so you can use a regular nipple. With the spoke end you need to hold the spoke with pliers and do the nipple with a socket from the back of the rim.

    In the other weight-weenie direction from larger titanium, is smaller steel. What about using a 15g steel spoke and not a 2.0 at the outer end? Alloy nipples definitely available. It seems like they might get cycled less in strain due to the longer stretch of the Dyneema spreading it out... and the large MTB tire and stiff carbon rim doing a better job distributing the load among more spokes at a time.

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    Okashira, how did you con Marlow into selling you 1.8mm DM20 rope? This is really strange business. After several emails back and forth Nicole forwarded me to Chrissy (the boss) finally ended like this:

    "Unfortunately no, we are not able to sell to end users and a MOQ would still not allow us to do so. Again, I apologize for the inconvenience."

    They are unwilling to sell, at any price, at any amount. I offered to buy 10,000 meters of rope to meet any MOQ requirements.

    Maybe I should try emailing from my LLC account with my commercial signature.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    Any theories what Berd's "customized coating" might be?
    I'm not sure where you read about this, but I googled it and found a Yahoo article stating the following:

    Berds special spokes use a customized coating to increase resistance to wear and tear, abrasion, moisture, and UV exposure as well.
    Polyurethane (PU). 99% sure. Marlow offers PU treatment on a lot of their ropes. Subsequent heat treatment (referred to as HPC technology by some vendors) might also help.

    I'm seeing why Berd have done it with a regular spoke end. They don't need to get the length of the string very precise if they're sliding it over a couple inches of spoke end.
    That, and... it's cheap. Plus it doesn't look different.

    Do you suppose they have roughed up the spoke so the bury works better? or would that abrade the string
    Epoxy adhesive? It's probably a "customized coating" or "proprietary material".

    In the other weight-weenie direction from larger titanium, is smaller steel. What about using a 15g steel spoke and not a 2.0 at the outer end?
    I definitely like this idea of going smaller with a steel bolt. Okashira's take on durability? What kind of tension would this take?
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    Pm me I will give you contact

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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    I'm not sure where you read about this, but I googled it and found a Yahoo article stating the following:



    Polyurethane (PU). 99% sure. Marlow offers PU treatment on a lot of their ropes. Subsequent heat treatment (referred to as HPC technology by some vendors) might also help.



    That, and... it's cheap. Plus it doesn't look different.



    Epoxy adhesive? It's probably a "customized coating" or "proprietary material".



    I definitely like this idea of going smaller with a steel bolt. Okashira's take on durability? What kind of tension would this take?
    Marlow's 1.8mm DM20 is heat stretched and PU.

    On spoke tension, so titanium and/or 15ga steel might work best on wheels with 32,36,40 spokes. Where you can target like <70Kgf tension. Might be a good combo with 1.5mm line instead of 1.8.

    My wheels are 28 spoke so I will probably want a little more tension...

    PS I have a friend in town visiting so I won't have much time to work on this for next 5 days

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    Tweaked to lower mass.

    0.77g for 302ss
    0.424g for Ti Alloy

    Total spoke weight
    1.92g 302ss
    1.57g Ti

    Still using the 1.1mm thickness, we will do some testing to see if 1.1mm is okay or we need to make it thicker (~2mm)

    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-capture.png

  98. #98
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    may need a patent lawyer to verify you won't infringe on Berd patent if you intend to sell

    SPOKE COMPOSED OF BRAIDED FIBER WITH HUB AND RIM TERMINATIONS


    of course, keep building it,

    maybe not sell any, till the all clear is vetted
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    may need a patent lawyer to verify you won't infringe on Berd patent if you intend to sell

    SPOKE COMPOSED OF BRAIDED FIBER WITH HUB AND RIM TERMINATIONS


    of course, keep building it,

    maybe not sell any, till the all clear is vetted
    If he is potentially in violation selling or not selling won't necessarily be protection. Not selling would probably reduce damage liabilities though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    If he is potentially in violation selling or not selling won't necessarily be protection. Not selling would probably reduce damage liabilities though.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Oh cmmon, this is a DIY project If it ever would hit the market it would be because it is so different from Berd that it makes sense to market it.

    I wouldn't market until I could improve on the hub interface and materials used. My chemistry background is coming in handy DM20 isn't the only material out there like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    Oh cmmon, this is a DIY project If it ever would hit the market it would be because it is so different from Berd that it makes sense to market it.

    I wouldn't market until I could improve on the hub interface and materials used. My chemistry background is coming in handy DM20 isn't the only material out there like this.
    Is it likely they'll take action, no. However, full disclosure is that they can solely based on the fact of it being made. Commercialization has no bearing in the matter.

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    Okashira and I have had the patent infringement discussion in PMs. I bring it up because it's such a common misconception, but the statute provides:

    whoever without authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the United States, or imports into the United States any patented invention during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.

    So, even making one or two or three in your garage is patent infringement for which one can be sued. However, patent infringement lawsuits are very expensive and no patent owner is likely to sue you for making a few infringing products that don't significantly cut into the market for the product.

    Berd's patent hasn't been granted yet, so there's nothing to sue over. But it will be granted soon.

  103. #103
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    Why not Kevlar, after all? Its available for cheap at retail. Cursory search gave $23 for a roll of 700# test, 1.8mm rope from Emma Kites via Amazon. That would be a bikes worth. Its not obvious if its name brand Kevlar or which version. I guess you could call and find out. You could also paint it with PU.

    Spinergy Spox are still available, I just looked. They are made of a fiber called PBO, trade name Zylon.

  104. #104
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    I was just reminiscing about bending piano wire (spring steel) to make landing gear, or worse, rubber motor hooks, for my model airplanes. That stuff was tempered hard. Looking up spokes, even CX-Ray spokes are not as hard as that stuff is, and a straight spoke is less than half the strength. Made me unafraid of both trying to bend it, or the result breaking because of the bend.

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwiceHorn View Post
    Okashira and I have had the patent infringement discussion in PMs.(...)
    I don't want to start a discussion about patent infringement, but apart from the type of fiber, that is commercially available, and that has a splice loop at one end of the rope, that they can't reclaim patent, what we are talking about is, in my opinion, different enough to not infringe their patent.
    To be completely honest I don't even think that they have enough ground to be granted a patent on their product, but it's not my job to judge, I just like to thinker with things.
    But I honestly do want to know your opinion on if we will be infringing their patent if we build a spoke the way we have been speaking, I ask this because you clearly know more about patents than me and, I bet, more than most reading this thread.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Aglo; 11-03-2018 at 02:46 AM.

  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    I was just reminiscing about bending piano wire (spring steel) to make landing gear, or worse, rubber motor hooks, for my model airplanes. That stuff was tempered hard. Looking up spokes, even CX-Ray spokes are not as hard as that stuff is, and a straight spoke is less than half the strength. Made me unafraid of both trying to bend it, or the result breaking because of the bend.
    Are you talking about making an eye by bending a spoke?
    If so, think about it this way, J-bend spokes are bent spokes .

  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    Are you talking about making an eye by bending a spoke?
    If so, think about it this way, J-bend spokes are bent spokes .
    Yeah but that's done with a lot of tooling and some science. I want to do it with a pair of pliers and my hands. How good is good enough?

  108. #108
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    The most importar thing on my opinion is precision and repeatability, the best and fastest way to achieve this is to use/make a rig.
    So, three or four removable pins and a fixed nut to thread and fix the spoke should be all we need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    Why not Kevlar, after all? Its available for cheap at retail. Cursory search gave $23 for a roll of 700# test, 1.8mm rope from Emma Kites via Amazon. That would be a bikes worth. Its not obvious if its name brand Kevlar or which version. I guess you could call and find out. You could also paint it with PU.

    Spinergy Spox are still available, I just looked. They are made of a fiber called PBO, trade name Zylon.
    Both vectran or pbo would be a better choice then Kevlar.
    Compared to all 4, DM20 has the best
    Uv resistance
    Strength/weight
    chemical resistance
    Abrasion resistance

    It's available. I will post up a source for 1.5 mm size also.
    I think I posted a a source for 1.8mm vectran as well

    Kevlars abrasion resistance and poor chemical resistance really makes it hard to use for spokes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    I had to think for 3sec on what you were talking about with Z-bend .

    When I was talking about bending a spoke and braze it with brass I was referring to something like the picture bellow, the yellowish area is where the braze is made.

    Name:  images.png
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    I kinda like this, worth a try.
    TBH this might be a good way to produce these easily.
    Have them CNC wire bent from spring steel. Then manually braze them all. or figure out a way to lock it without a braze.

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    @Aglo I am liking your idea of bending a wire around to make a loop.
    We could have spring steel wire CNC bent into that shape, and brazing can be done in large quantities in an oven, just place a 10mm long piece of braze rod right on the joint and pop it in the oven.
    Use a low enough temperature braze filler and one can maintain some pretty good hardness on the wire.
    CNC wire bending:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQIYZ-iKuG4

    They could be bent, quenched, then the brazing process and tempering could be combined in 1 step; threads rolled after brazing.

    round spring steel wire has the further advantage of making a nice smooth round for the splice to sit on.

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    @Aglo I am liking your idea of bending a wire around to make a loop.
    We could have spring steel wire CNC bent into that shape, and brazing can be done in large quantities in an oven, just place a 10mm long piece of braze rod right on the joint and pop it in the oven.
    Use a low enough temperature braze filler and one can maintain some pretty good hardness on the wire.
    CNC wire bending:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQIYZ-iKuG4

    They could be bent, quenched, then the brazing process and tempering could be combined in 1 step; threads rolled after brazing.

    round spring steel wire has the further advantage of making a nice smooth round for the splice to sit on.
    http://www.amtekcompany.com/diwire-d...c-wire-bender/

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    I am not a patent lawyer, so I am all ears to what others have to say.

    Does Pi-Rope have a patent on Vectran Polyester for spokes? How do they secure their end bolts to the Vectran braid? If it's indeed adhesive I wonder what kind of strength they can get.

    This is a huge point of frustration for me, why can you just go out there and patent your favorite material for your favorite purpose? In my world of work, this would be akin to patenting your favorite gene for designing drugs for a certain cancer so nobody else can work on it (which was ruled against at the highest levels of jurisdiction). What's the diff?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    I am not a patent lawyer, so I am all ears to what others have to say.

    Does Pi-Rope have a patent on Vectran Polyester for spokes? How do they secure their end bolts to the Vectran braid? If it's indeed adhesive I wonder what kind of strength they can get.

    This is a huge point of frustration for me, why can you just go out there and patent your favorite material for your favorite purpose? In my world of work, this would be akin to patenting your favorite gene for designing drugs for a certain cancer so nobody else can work on it (which was ruled against at the highest levels of jurisdiction). What's the diff?
    Generally speaking you cannot patent a new use for a known material. However, if that material must be modified in some way to make it work (as by using the "bury splice" to fix a metallic pin in the fiber), then the combination of the material and the modification may be patentable.

    When the Berd patent issues, its claims are simple enough that I will come back here and post them and do a little thumbnail analysis that might be useful for some of the peanut gallery. I'm on a number of hobby boards where patents come up rather frequently and so maybe it will be nice to correct some of the misapprehensions about them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    I am not a patent lawyer, so I am all ears to what others have to say.

    Does Pi-Rope have a patent on Vectran Polyester for spokes? How do they secure their end bolts to the Vectran braid? If it's indeed adhesive I wonder what kind of strength they can get.

    This is a huge point of frustration for me, why can you just go out there and patent your favorite material for your favorite purpose? In my world of work, this would be akin to patenting your favorite gene for designing drugs for a certain cancer so nobody else can work on it (which was ruled against at the highest levels of jurisdiction). What's the diff?
    no!! There is no patent for vectran or dm20 for use on spokes.
    Berds pending patent is very specific , related to their buried spoke end, super glue and their pulling the splice thru the hub and using the short piece of dyneema to hold it in the hub.
    There is no mention of material.

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    no!! There is no patent for vectran or dm20 for use on spokes.
    Berds pending patent is very specific , related to their buried spoke end, super glue and their pulling the splice thru the hub and using the short piece of dyneema to hold it in the hub.
    There is no mention of material.
    yeah that is how it looks

    the method they patent is the way of using standard hubs and standard rims for a braided fiber spoke...and what is patented is the hub connection and the chinese finger trap thing

    maybe...I am no lawyer...
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    Back to Kevlar (since I'm lazy). If we are wetting it out with PU then do we really need to worry about abrasion or UV resistance? The stuff from Emma Kites was black, too, not yellow, which should help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    Back to Kevlar (since I'm lazy). If we are wetting it out with PU then do we really need to worry about abrasion or UV resistance? The stuff from Emma Kites was black, too, not yellow, which should help.
    Do you already just happen to have some ~1.8mm kevlar?
    I don't think PU will help much with the abrasion. You could just rub right through it. I think you'd want a double braided / covered rope. It's the actual UHMWPE fibers that resist abrasion because they are so slick and tough.
    It is also less chemical resistant. UHMWPE will just last alot longer.
    I have a 100m roll, and I think that sissy ordered 100m roll so we can sell you some of it.

  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    Do you already just happen to have some ~1.8mm kevlar?
    I don't think PU will help much with the abrasion. You could just rub right through it. I think you'd want a double braided / covered rope. It's the actual UHMWPE fibers that resist abrasion because they are so slick and tough.
    It is also less chemical resistant. UHMWPE will just last alot longer.
    I have a 100m roll, and I think that sissy ordered 100m roll so we can sell you some of it.
    I actually haven't pulled the trigger on that roll yet. I'm kind of not sure yet whether I'm going to pull the trigger on this project unless we can distribute costs on whatever eyebolt design we come up with. I want to make sure the numbers add up.

    This seems to be the most easily accessible product out there:

    https://www.amazon.com/Mastrant-MM02...DQX/ref=sr_1_1

    It's 2mm instead of 1.8mm, so for all practical purposes, basically the same thing. If the 1.8mm roll is still available I would get that though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    I actually haven't pulled the trigger on that roll yet. I'm kind of not sure yet whether I'm going to pull the trigger on this project unless we can distribute costs on whatever eyebolt design we come up with. I want to make sure the numbers add up.

    This seems to be the most easily accessible product out there:

    https://www.amazon.com/Mastrant-MM02...DQX/ref=sr_1_1

    It's 2mm instead of 1.8mm, so for all practical purposes, basically the same thing. If the 1.8mm roll is still available I would get that though.
    That won't work. I already got some. It's not braided. And it's 2mm with the polyester cover.
    Mastrant shipped me samples direct from the Czech Republic; only the cover is braided, not the DM20.

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    Oh, thanks for checking already! I emailed the supplier and they said the rope was 2mm but apparently they werent familiar with the product. Maybe Ill pull the trigger on the rope from the supplier you sent me.

    Braided vectran wouldnt work for our application?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    Oh, thanks for checking already! I emailed the supplier and they said the rope was 2mm but apparently they werent familiar with the product. Maybe Ill pull the trigger on the rope from the supplier you sent me.

    Braided vectran wouldnt work for our application?
    Vectran is good. I would say it's the 2nd best choice to DM20.

    Not as chemical resistant or abrasion resistant and not as stiff.
    But much better then Kevlar

  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    I have a 100m roll, and I think that sissy ordered 100m roll so we can sell you some of it.
    Thank you for your kind offer but I think part of the goal here should be that anyone crafty can do it with supplies they can get easily. That's one major reason I keep harping on other fibers and bending straight spokes to make the ends. I don't mind being in on a group buy to lower the price. I've been doing those since usenet. But so far the Dyneema has an embargo and the Ti ends just seem like more luxury than engineering.

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    Here is what I think ill do for my front wheel spokes....

    For my rear wheel, I ended up with a 28H because of a deal I got on a DT Swiss 180 hub, so I'll use 1.8mm DM20 with some custom ends that we're designing (or a bury)

    For my front wheel, Ill go for a 36H or 40H and use these spokes:
    無標題文件
    PSR AERO 1432

    They are 3.2mm wide, which is perfect. I'll drill a 1.35mm hole in the flat section and thread the 2mm end longer. Perfect.
    It will reduce the strength of the spoke, to perhaps 200kg or so, which is why ill use the smaller 1.25mm line and a higher spoke count with a bit lower tension.

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    Another good option; these were hard to find:
    無標題文件
    https://www.bikeonlineshop.net/pilla...45-spoke-black

    They are 13g. I might use these, and use a belt sander to get the diameter down to 2.0mm , before rolling threads on them.

    I received the 2.6mm / 2.3mm butted spokes I ordered, will take them to a machine shop to try and flatten the 2.6mm end when I get a chance this week.


    *******************************
    I was about to send this design off to a USA mfg, but I realized I need to do a strength test with a splice around 1.1mm thick material, to see if it needs to be thicker....
    If anyone has any comments now would be the time before I send it for quote and engage a manufacturer.
    I will send it to these guys first; I have worked with them before.
    Case Studies - Buyken Metal Products - CNC, Metal Fabrication, Quality, Kent Washington

    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-capture.jpg
    Last edited by okashira; 11-07-2018 at 08:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    Another good option; these were hard to find:
    無標題文件
    https://www.bikeonlineshop.net/pilla...45-spoke-black

    They are 13g. I might use these, and use a belt sander to get the diameter down to 2.0mm , before rolling threads on them.

    I received the 2.6mm / 2.3mm butted spokes I ordered, will take them to a machine shop to try and flatten the 2.6mm end when I get a chance this week.


    *******************************
    I was about to send this design off to a USA mfg, but I realized I need to do a strength test with a splice around 1.1mm thick material, to see if it needs to be thicker....
    If anyone has any comments now would be the time before I send it for quote and engage a manufacturer.
    I will send it to these guys first; I have worked with them before.
    Case Studies - Buyken Metal Products - CNC, Metal Fabrication, Quality, Kent Washington

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I like the design a lot, I hope it works well!

    Glad to hear you've got a manufacturer ready to roll.

  131. #131
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    Here is a wire bent design as suggested by someone here...
    Weight comes to 1.1g or so.
    Manufacturing is an issue. Can't braze spring steel it because it would soften too much. Can't weld spring steel.
    Can't weld 302ss because it would also be softened.
    Brazing cold worked 302ss may work.

    Edit: actually welding might work. The wire pressed together and ultrasonically welded or maybe even spot welded.
    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-capture.jpg
    Last edited by okashira; 11-08-2018 at 10:44 PM.

  132. #132
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    Guys, I will be in Shanghai from the 19th to the 5th.
    I don't have alot of time in the meantime, but if anyone finds some relevant supplier in Shanghai. I may be able to visit them for quotes or some manufacturing guideance or prototype inspection.

    I'll bring some DM20 with me that i can splice into any prototype parts for strength testing

  133. #133
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    Okashira has already reviewed these, but since there's a bit of a collaborative effort on this, figured I'd post the other two major fiber/flexible spoke patents for the inspiration/consideration of others.

    This is kind of the pioneer and may be a bit speculative. https://patents.google.com/patent/US5110190A

    This is one of another set of three that may pursue a red herring https://patents.google.com/patent/US8794714B2

    The reason we have patents in the first place is to document ideas so that others can rely on them in their own work. Sometimes these failed or unsuccessful for uknown reasons ideas can provide important inspiration to others.

  134. #134
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    Regarding the 2.3mm(13G) alloy nipples, besides Sapim and Pillar that I can't find available anywhere, I found some guys that you might want try to contact: https://www.newsonsportec.com/

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    Here is a wire bent design as suggested by someone here...
    Weight comes to 1.1g or so.
    Manufacturing is an issue. Can't braze spring steel it because it would soften too much. Can't weld spring steel.
    Can't weld 302ss because it would also be softened.
    Brazing cold worked 302ss may work.

    Edit: actually welding might work. The wire pressed together and ultrasonically welded or maybe even spot welded.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I arrived at the same conclusion as you.
    I also considered spot welding, but I don't think it will work because the spokes are too thin, but I'm no expert on welding, so it may work.
    Other option that occurred to me was to leave a bigger tail after the loop and wrap it around the spoke for a couple of turns and solder the wrap, but don't know if it will hold.

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    I arrived at the same conclusion as you.
    I also considered spot welding, but I don't think it will work because the spokes are too thin, but I'm no expert on welding, so it may work.
    Other option that occurred to me was to leave a bigger tail after the loop and wrap it around the spoke for a couple of turns and solder the wrap, but don't know if it will hold.
    electronic spot welding would do that perfectly methinks.
    current is adjustable. it's commonly used for thin metals that can't take too much heat
    such as lithium battery straps
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  137. #137
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    how would you connect to the loop, like a larkshead ?

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    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  138. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    how would you connect to the loop, like a larkshead ?

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    Spot welding, ultra sonic welding, or brazing 302ss.

    I was also looking for an idea like this, it would make the cost really low even for lower quantities using CNC wire bending. But I am worried the extra material to make a knot or self locking mechanism as such would add alot of weight.

    1.1g is still pretty good. It gives a final spoke weight of about 2.15g for a 29er using 1.8mm DM20.

  139. #139
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    Buyken declined to quote.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQAMWzrByL4
    This could work well for the 302ss wire bend design.

    drawn 302ss wire in 2mm is available all the way to 300,000psi tensile strength (660kg break strength!) at very low cost.
    That's probably too hard, we will want something like 1/2 hard, or 180,000psi, so the bends can be made and threads rolled.

    As long as the HAZ (heat affected zone) of the weld doesn't extend out of the area where the wire is doubled up, it will remain nice and strong.

  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwiceHorn View Post
    Okashira has already reviewed these, but since there's a bit of a collaborative effort on this, figured I'd post the other two major fiber/flexible spoke patents for the inspiration/consideration of others.

    This is kind of the pioneer and may be a bit speculative. https://patents.google.com/patent/US5110190A

    This is one of another set of three that may pursue a red herring https://patents.google.com/patent/US8794714B2

    The reason we have patents in the first place is to document ideas so that others can rely on them in their own work. Sometimes these failed or unsuccessful for uknown reasons ideas can provide important inspiration to others.
    Thanks TwiceHorn.

    Yeah Spinergy's method is pretty cool.

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    @sissypants So you had a quote for gr5 titanium part.
    For some reason I thought gr5 Ti was pure Ti, which it's not. It IS 6Al-4V.

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    https://www.ebay.com/itm/5Pcs-Titani...19vK:rk:2:pf:0

    Use with the Berd method and get a 1.9g spoke.

  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    Here is a wire bent design as suggested by someone here...
    Weight comes to 1.1g or so.
    Manufacturing is an issue. Can't braze spring steel it because it would soften too much. Can't weld spring steel.
    Can't weld 302ss because it would also be softened.
    Brazing cold worked 302ss may work.

    Edit: actually welding might work. The wire pressed together and ultrasonically welded or maybe even spot welded.
    It'd be funny if you could call it electroforged like a Schwinn Varsity or a Stingray.

    Also, tied and soldered spokes used to be a thing. https://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/ty...ing-made-easy/

    I laughed a little at item 4 on that page's list. "A time when the price of labor was lower and craftsmanship was valued more highly." One of those clauses can be true but not both in the same sentence!

  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    I laughed a little at item 4 on that page's list. "A time when the price of labor was lower and craftsmanship was valued more highly." One of those clauses can be true but not both in the same sentence!
    It depends honestly. In an employer sided market it can hold true. Wages are low due to a surplus in able bodied workers and workers are just thankful to have a job are not complacent and go above and beyond to keep it.

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  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    how would you connect to the loop, like a larkshead ?

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    That is an option but we could just splice through the eye like we have being talking. But I think your suggestion would put less stress on the rope.

    @okashira, if instead of making the eye with a round shape we make a tear drop shape, it would be less susceptible to stretch and probably lighter.

    Do you think the 302ss is easily rolled with the Hozan head?
    Last edited by Aglo; 11-10-2018 at 07:52 AM.

  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    That is an option but we could just splice through the eye like we have being talking. But I think your suggestion would put less stress on the rope.

    @okashira, if instead of making the eye with a round shape we make a tear drop shape, it would be less susceptible to stretch and probably lighter.

    Do you think the 302ss is easily rolled with the Hozan head?
    Most spokes are 302ss.

  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    Most spokes are 302ss.
    If I recall correctly my Sapin and DT are non-magnetic so you are most probably right. But I am almost sure my Wheelsmith are magnetic, have to check it later to be sure.
    Anyway, I ordered a 300Kg scale and some non chromed plated silver stainless spokes to do some brazing tests.
    Now I want to order some 12 strands Dyneema DM20 rope, either 2mm or 1.8mm, but I'm a little lost here, I know you should be extra busy now, but can you help me here and share some links of sellers that ship to Europe?
    Thanks.

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    If I recall correctly my Sapin and DT are non-magnetic so you are most probably right. But I am almost sure my Wheelsmith are magnetic, have to check it later to be sure.
    Anyway, I ordered a 300Kg scale and some non chromed plated silver stainless spokes to do some brazing tests.
    Now I want to order some 12 strands Dyneema DM20 rope, either 2mm or 1.8mm, but I'm a little lost here, I know you should be extra busy now, but can you help me here and share some links of sellers that ship to Europe?
    Thanks.
    Two places
    Marlow 1.8mm
    Email Chicago Yacht Rigging.

    Armare.it
    https://www.armare.it/en/

    I ordered some SK99, kite line on their website, 1.25mm. I then emailed them if they could make it from DM20
    They said yes and changed the order to DM20, same price.

    I think they have 1, 1.25, 1.5, 1.8 and 2



    On 302ss, 302ss is non magnetic when annealed, but becomes magnetic as you cold work it. The spokes that you have that are magnetic are probably just more cold worked.

  150. #150
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    I have a Ti company looking at custom forging.
    Ti 6Al-4V. aka Grade 5.
    This part would be 0.5g. or 1.6g for whole spoke.

    Cut off threads after tension and you can get 1.4-1.5g.

    The extra thread length is needed, helpful. I am shooting for 22-24mm long. You can always cut off excess.
    Longer threads makes it easier to get the length right.Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-capture.jpg

    Can also do 1.8mm with 302ss, perhaps, about 0.8g.

  151. #151
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    @okashira--check your PM's. I sent you one yesterday.

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    @Zionic sorry they are sold.

    I am getting about 275kg break strength for this design. Good enough, IMHO, even for 28 spoke wheels. Amazing for 1.4g-1.6g spokes.
    The eye and the shaft fail at about the same time.

    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-animate22.gif

  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    @sissypants So you had a quote for gr5 titanium part.
    For some reason I thought gr5 Ti was pure Ti, which it's not. It IS 6Al-4V.
    Sorry for the delay, yes, it was from Dongguan Weimi Titanium parts. They were quoting $1.27/pc @ 1000 pcs and $1/pc @1500 pcs. They were rolling threads and forging the bolts. It was grade 5 titanium.

    Best way to reach them in particular is on Alibaba, but I'm sure there are more options out there.

  154. #154
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    @sissy,
    Ok I sent them the new design.

    Here is the file for the cutter jig if you have a 3D printer. The taper works great. No need for the tedious tapering of the tail.
    you can print out mm measurements on paper and glue/tape it if you want.
    https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuqwBZb5n5Jqg_YY0IsM9fDLRtww2A

    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-img_20181113_115747.jpg

  155. #155
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    @sissy

    Here is what I got from the supplier you shared:

    "CNC Machining service can macnufacture this parts, actually, Forged service need more lager quantity support."

    Are you sure they said they would forge the part for qty 1,000?

    My other Ti place says they think the qty will need to be 5,000 for a forging. They are still working on the quote.

  156. #156
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    Removed old protoype that was built before an aspect patent was granted
    Last edited by okashira; 01-28-2019 at 12:19 AM.

  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    @sissy

    Here is what I got from the supplier you shared:

    "CNC Machining service can macnufacture this parts, actually, Forged service need more lager quantity support."

    Are you sure they said they would forge the part for qty 1,000?

    My other Ti place says they think the qty will need to be 5,000 for a forging. They are still working on the quote.

    This was their reply:

    Hi,

    Thanks for your quick response. :-)

    Actually, our pirce is really not expensive, however, Zach, i really want to match your work, and getting back to you the first time,

    so i have just called our manager for discuss your project, and good news i get discount for you,haha~ :-)

    There are two proposals, i hope this help. :-)

    1. 1000pcs, US$1.27/1PCS
    2. 1500pcs, US$1 /1PCS

    Please let me know if you have any concerns.

    Many Thanks,

    Madelyn
    In retrospect I don't think it was clear whether we were discussing machining or forging.

    I talked to a friend of mine who owns a successful machine shop in Grand Rapids, MI (where I live) and he said he didn't think forging would be economical under 10,000 pieces. He said machining the bolts and rolling the threads would be the best way to go, and 7075 would be just fine given the tension we'll be using. He also was very skeptical of brazing or welding a bent spoke together as brazing adds material (makes it heavier) and isn't nearly as strong as a machined eye, and welding would just break guaranteed.

    He was happy to do a run of 1,000 pieces on a friend basis, but I have no idea about his pricing. I know I'd get a discount, but not a huge one because margins aren't super big. He does have about 40 CNC machines though.

  158. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    This was their reply:



    In retrospect I don't think it was clear whether we were discussing machining or forging.

    I talked to a friend of mine who owns a successful machine shop in Grand Rapids, MI (where I live) and he said he didn't think forging would be economical under 10,000 pieces. He said machining the bolts and rolling the threads would be the best way to go, and 7075 would be just fine given the tension we'll be using. He also was very skeptical of brazing or welding a bent spoke together as brazing adds material (makes it heavier) and isn't nearly as strong as a machined eye, and welding would just break guaranteed.

    He was happy to do a run of 1,000 pieces on a friend basis, but I have no idea about his pricing. I know I'd get a discount, but not a huge one because margins aren't super big. He does have about 40 CNC machines though.
    That's great. Ask him to do a run of 500-1000, at least for prototype and testing purpose!
    6Al-4V, please! 7075 is just not strong enough for 14ga, especially machined. Even forged would be iffy at 13ga, and 13ga alum nipples are hard to find.
    Sure it will hold 120kg of tension, but it will break at 200kg new, and fatigue down to 100kg in 1,000 miles.

  159. #159
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    You guys are making great progress. Hoping to sponge off of y'all's hard work and brains in time.

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  160. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    That's great. Ask him to do a run of 500-1000, at least for prototype and testing purpose!
    6Al-4V, please! 7075 is just not strong enough for 14ga, especially machined. Even forged would be iffy at 13ga, and 13ga alum nipples are hard to find.
    Sure it will hold 120kg of tension, but it will break at 200kg new, and fatigue down to 100kg in 1,000 miles.
    Edit: Will post up after I get a quote.
    Last edited by sissypants; 11-16-2018 at 08:18 PM.

  161. #161
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    Just a heads up:

    Chicago Yacht Righing is no longer carrying/selling DM20.




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  162. #162
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    Ive been emailing Manuela from Armare. Hoping to get a quote tomorrow.

    Out of curiosity, what is the diameter of 2.0mm DM20 at proper tension?


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  163. #163
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    That's some really impressive engineering/manufacturing. Berd's patent will issue on 12/11 and I can give you guys the claim/coverage summary.

  164. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwiceHorn View Post
    That's some really impressive engineering/manufacturing. Berd's patent will issue on 12/11 and I can give you guys the claim/coverage summary.
    I'm all ears and appreciate your expertise!

    I'm sure Berd is reading this thread as well

    The only thing that my approach and Berd's approach have in common is the use of DM20 rope.
    • Eyebolts will be used which thread directly into the nipples, unlike a threaded rod which threads directly into the nipples
    • The rope is spliced through the eye of the eyebolt, unlike the threaded rod which is buried into the rope core and held in place with adhesive when not under tension.
    • The rope is fixed to the hub by a bury splice around the hub flange, unlike a bury splice which is pulled through the flange and fixed with a small strand of fiber placed through the splice loop on the inside of the flange.
    • I'm using DM20 2.0mm rope instead of DM20 1.8mm.


    My use of the bury splice at the hub flange is different in design, though I'd be interested to hear your opinion on whether Berd could claim rights to any bury splice used in any manner to secure the spoke to a hub.

  165. #165
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    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?

    Sky International dont carry any DM20 below 3mm.

    Dropped Teufelberger an email asking about their 1.5mm DM20. Although, according to them/their catalog, they seem to make SK99 stuff with similar performance as it pertains to stretch and creep. Well see if they get back to me.

    Still waiting to hear back from Manuela at Armare. Might try emailing that other contact listed above.


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  166. #166
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    Same problem here, can't find DM20 stuff thinner than 3mm.
    I emailed Armare, and Manuela got back to me asking what diameters and quantities I want, but have not heard from her since my reply.

  167. #167
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    I got some 1.25 Dm20 from Armare no problem.. 100meters.
    I just ordered sk99 racing line and replied to their email asking to change to dm20.
    It's been delivered already but im still in China until the 6th.

  168. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Ive been emailing Manuela from Armare. Hoping to get a quote tomorrow.

    Out of curiosity, what is the diameter of 2.0mm DM20 at proper tension?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The Marlow DM20 I got is near 1.7mm under tension.
    I think 2.0 is a bit overkill.
    1.5 or 1.8 is better IMHO
    The Armare 1.25 I got was rated at like 268kg break strength

    Sucks to hear you guys can't get Dm20 from cyr. But i think Armare Italy will work out. They didn't have a problem with my 100meter custom order.

  169. #169
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    I asked if I could order 50m. I wonder if they just didnt want to do an order that small.

    Ill re-engage with a bigger order length. I'm going to try to order 100m of 1.5mm DM20 from Armare.

    That said, if anyone is interested in parting with some of their material, I'd certainly be interested in relieving you of your excess DM20.

    Likewise, I'll gladly sell some of my DM20 if/when I'm actually able to order it. 100m, even with massive waste of material and using 400mm per spoke, would still make 250 spokes.


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    Last edited by Le Duke; 12-02-2018 at 01:15 PM.
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  170. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    The Marlow DM20 I got is near 1.7mm under tension.
    I think 2.0 is a bit overkill.
    1.5 or 1.8 is better IMHO
    The Armare 1.25 I got was rated at like 268kg break strength

    Sucks to hear you guys can't get Dm20 from cyr. But i think Armare Italy will work out. They didn't have a problem with my 100meter custom order.
    So, I've been reading up on some of the Dyneema materials.

    Depending the material, they (various manufacturers) generally recommend that the static load is no higher than 20% of the break strength. Is that going to impact your plans, particularly with the 1.25mm DM20, and its 268kg break strength?

    That said, I was looking at Mastrant's 2mm DM20 guy rope, which has a 75 daN working load and a 250 daN strength, which works out to 30%.

    Am I thinking about this the wrong way?
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  171. #171
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    No, you're being logical.
    You can go for more then 20% though, since the application is well constrained and not shock loaded like, say, riggings or safety lines.
    1.25mm would be better for 36 or 40 spokes wheels.
    I would go for 1.8mm for 28 or 32.
    Armares 1.8mm dm20 is good for like > 350kg.

    I already posted this about Mastrants guy rope you don't want to use that stuff... it's with a cover and the core is not braided
    What we need is called "single braid" or "hollow braid" or "12-stand"
    None of Mastrants products are appropriate.

    2mm single braid DM20 would probably break at 400kg if it is quality stuff.

  172. #172
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    Here is how I ordered.
    Select racing line or kite line.
    Select single braid/no cover.
    Select WHITE or CLEAR color.
    Chose your size and order 100m.

    Then email them and ask for DM20 instead. They said the sk99 and dm20 same price.

    I don't know if they offer 1.8. you could order 2.0 and ask if they can target 1.8.

    Maybe the kite line has an option for 1.8.



    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-screenshot_20181203-130621__01.jpg
    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-screenshot_20181203-130736.jpg

    They may not want to be bothered with setting up custom orders via email. I'm sure they get alot of inquiry without people following through.
    If you order and pay in advance, you'll get better service, I think.
    Their english also seems a bit limited.

  173. #173
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    Does DM20 gradually recover from its stretch if the load is removed, like rubber? I was wondering if the spokes could be pre-stretched, and then how much time you would have before they got a few mm shorter again.

    (although I can't think of a really good way to put that much force on that many spokes at home without just going ahead and building them into a wheel)

  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    Will post up after I get a quote.
    So my friend who owns a machine shop got back with me and said that this product at this scale is just not economical for him as he isn't set up to do these kinds of projects. He did try to make it work and talked to guys. He also tapped two other local shop owners who do small stuff but they didn't feel they could offer a competitive price.

    Unless any of you have a connection, I think outsourcing to China for the eyebolts will be ideal, and it will probably end up around $1.25/pc. after freight.

    Shall I send out another round of quotes? I don't really want to be the one handling the up-front costs on this.

  175. #175
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    Here's the other question I have.

    Would the "Chinese Finger Trap" method work with 2mm 12-strand? Or is it too wide, internally, to work with something like a 2mm section of welding rod?
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  176. #176
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    Wouldn't these poly spokes result in a wheel that moved considerably more under high side loads?

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

  177. #177
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    Yes. There is a bit of viscoelastic stretch that recovers on the order of hours to minutes. It's useful if you have a spoke slightly too short.

  178. #178
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    It will still work.
    Let me point out that the surface finish on those ti welding rods I got from eBay were perfect for the finger trap method. Really grippy. It would even hold on without glue at the end.

  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Wouldn't these poly spokes result in a wheel that moved considerably more under high side loads?

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    You should read up on the materials in question.
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  180. #180
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    Got bored this evening before dinner and did some basic math. I calculated the breaking load per square millimeter (which isn't really a thing with a braided rope) of material. One of the more interesting things is that the breaking strength of these materials seems to go down, on a breaking strength vs. cross sectional area, as they increase in diameter. More air space? Not sure.

    All of the data were pulled from manufacturers' websites. One important caveat related to error. There are one or two companies that used daN instead of kgf. 1 daN = 1.019 kgf, so, call it 2%. Teufelberger listed in in daN. So, if you really care, knock 2% off those to get kgf breaking loads.

    The theoretical, non-existent products are based 1.5 and 2.0mm theoretical DM20 material using the highest and lowest calculated values for Sky International's English Braids Dynastay (DM20) products. Meaning, I took the 1.5 and 2.0mm diameters, cut it in half (radius), squared that value, multiplied it by pi, then multiplied it by the highest and lowest calculated breaking loads. It would be great if they actually existed, but, at this point in time, Gideon at Sky International confirms the smallest diameter they sell is 3mm.

    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-line-assessment.jpg
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  181. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Wouldn't these poly spokes result in a wheel that moved considerably more under high side loads?

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    I was thinking the same as I was reading through the thread.
    I understand that the "spoke" will be under high tension which should prevent it, but it's hard to compare a solid metal spoke to a piece of "rope" in my mind's eye.

    I'd have to see a rope that has virtually no stretch capability to begin to even consider the two as similar.

  182. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by robbnj View Post
    I was thinking the same as I was reading through the thread.
    I understand that the "spoke" will be under high tension which should prevent it, but it's hard to compare a solid metal spoke to a piece of "rope" in my mind's eye.

    I'd have to see a rope that has virtually no stretch capability to begin to even consider the two as similar.
    High tension has very little to do with lateral "flex" in a wheel, regardless of whether the spoke is metal or polymer.
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  183. #183
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    Armare's 1.5mm sk99 is rated at 450kg :-O

  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    Armare's 1.5mm sk99 is rated at 450kg :-O
    Did they ever provide you with specs on the DM20 you bought?


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  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    High tension has very little to do with lateral "flex" in a wheel, regardless of whether the spoke is metal or polymer.
    I'm likely using incorrect terminology, but are you saying if I loosen all my spokes by a fair amount, the outer rim will continue to run true relative to the hub, even with a strong side load presented?
    (and the hub will also remain true to the center of the periphery of the rim under load?)

    It's oversimplifying, but I think of a steering wheel having flexible spokes. Press hard against the wheel rim at 3 and 9 o'clock, and it will move toward the dash while the hub remains in the same place. The less tension on those spokes, the more the rim can move.

    I thought it was the tension on the spokes that kept it all centered and true (and why I paid my LBS to properly tension the spokes to true my wheels).

  186. #186
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    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?

    Quote Originally Posted by robbnj View Post
    I'm likely using incorrect terminology, but are you saying if I loosen all my spokes by a fair amount, the outer rim will continue to run true relative to the hub, even with a strong side load presented?
    (and the hub will also remain true to the center of the periphery of the rim under load?)

    It's oversimplifying, but I think of a steering wheel having flexible spokes. Press hard against the wheel rim at 3 and 9 o'clock, and it will move toward the dash while the hub remains in the same place. The less tension on those spokes, the more the rim can move.

    I thought it was the tension on the spokes that kept it all centered and true (and why I paid my LBS to properly tension the spokes to true my wheels).
    Id ask you how/if a spoke made from flexible steel wire and one made from a piece of polymer rope are functionally different. If you press on the rim, in this scenario, the spokes would stretch. If a DM20 spoke has no appreciable difference in stretch under load, compared to a CX-Ray, why would it build a more laterally flexible wheel?

    Also:

    https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html


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  187. #187
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    ^I gotta stop reading this thread. researching what is being posted here on deflection led me down a path where I remembered I used to race hard on spinery rex-x and did not die nor break any bones or bleed out, and that was sheer luck. I raced for 16 months on Rev-X and only cracked the carbon arch on the rim, never the spokes themselves. so then I see all the past rev-x career ending injuries....pictures...stories...oh man ....
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  188. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    ^I gotta stop reading this thread. researching what is being posted here on deflection led me down a path where I remembered I used to race hard on spinery rex-x and did not die nor break any bones or bleed out, and that was sheer luck. I raced for 16 months on Rev-X and only cracked the carbon arch on the rim, never the spokes themselves. so then I see all the past rev-x career ending injuries....pictures...stories...oh man ....
    I was racing on the road a bit after the height of the Rev-X boom, but I found a picture of me next to a due on them while looking through some old pictures.

    I'd hope that any remaining, intact copies are reserved for wall or shop art at this point.
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  189. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Id ask you how/if a spoke made from flexible steel wire and one made from a piece of polymer rope are functionally different. If you press on the rim, in this scenario, the spokes would stretch. If a DM20 spoke has no appreciable difference in stretch under load, compared to a CX-Ray, why would it build a more laterally flexible wheel?

    Also:

    https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html


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    You picked a bad example. CX-Rays are bladed so shape could be tuned to account for lateral flex. Are they, no idea. Could they, absolutely.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    You picked a bad example. CX-Rays are bladed so shape could be tuned to account for lateral flex. Are they, no idea. Could they, absolutely.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    I might be wrong, but the cross sectional area of a CX-Ray is the same as a "normal" double butted 2.0-1.5-2.0mm spoke. Per Sapim and other manufacturers, their bladed spokes are a Laser with an extra forging step to ovalize the spoke. I believe Sapim makes claims about enhanced durability due to this extra forging step, but have never seen anyone able to verify that.

    And, I believe that cross sectional area is really the only thing that matters (given the same material), in terms of a spoke's individual contribution to wheel stiffness. Basically, a 2mm straight gauge spoke wheel, given the same hub and rim, will always be "stiffer" than a similar wheel built with double butted spokes.
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  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I might be wrong, but the cross sectional area of a CX-Ray is the same as a "normal" double butted 2.0-1.5-2.0mm spoke. Per Sapim and other manufacturers, their bladed spokes are a Laser with an extra forging step to ovalize the spoke. I believe Sapim makes claims about enhanced durability due to this extra forging step, but have never seen anyone able to verify that.

    And, I believe that cross sectional area is really the only thing that matters (given the same material), in terms of a spoke's individual contribution to wheel stiffness. Basically, a 2mm straight gauge spoke wheel, given the same hub and rim, will always be "stiffer" than a similar wheel built with double butted spokes.
    Cross section matter yes. However, the way it is forged, the final shape and other factors can all influence its resistance to deformation in a given direction.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Cross section matter yes. However, the way it is forged, the final shape and other factors can all influence its resistance to deformation in a given direction.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Ive never seen anyone a) claim a bladed spoke produces a laterally stiffer wheel than its parent spoke and b) never seen test results that would back that up. If that data existed, that would be good to have. Mostly to justify my own expenditures.

    Personally, I only use them to help me, amateur wheelbuilder, control/prevent spoke wind up.


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  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Ive never seen anyone a) claim a bladed spoke produces a laterally stiffer wheel than its parent spoke and b) never seen test results that would back that up. If that data existed, that would be good to have. Mostly to justify my own expenditures.

    Personally, I only use them to help me, amateur wheelbuilder, control/prevent spoke wind up.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    It was just a bad example due to the potential variables they added versus a non-bladed spoke.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    It was just a bad example due to the potential variables they added versus a non-bladed spoke.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    True.




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  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Did they ever provide you with specs on the DM20 you bought?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yes. 238 daN spliced break load for the 1.25
    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-screenshot_20181205-124524__01.jpg

  196. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Id ask you how/if a spoke made from flexible steel wire and one made from a piece of polymer rope are functionally different. If you press on the rim, in this scenario, the spokes would stretch. If a DM20 spoke has no appreciable difference in stretch under load, compared to a CX-Ray, why would it build a more laterally flexible wheel?

    Also:

    https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    From what I know of "rope", it is braided and generally will have more "stretchability" than the same material made as a solid strand of the same or even smaller thickness (of course, until it reaches maximum stretch).

    I understand that if the UHMWPE rope-spoke is tensioned the same as a metal spoke, the whole assembly will act just like a common bike wheel.

    Where my train of understanding derails is your statement that tension has little to do with the lateral flex of the rim with relation to it running true to the hub.
    I'm asking that if tension has little to do with it (lateral flex), does it mean little or no lateral flex will occur even if tension is reduced on all spokes in a traditional setup?


    And a question that's more on-topic: If the rope has to be tensioned to match a metal spoke's tension, why not use a solid strand of the UHMWPE instead of rope?
    (or was it an issue of how to connect a solid strand to the rim and hub?)

  197. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Ive never seen anyone a) claim a bladed spoke produces a laterally stiffer wheel than its parent spoke and b) never seen test results that would back that up. If that data existed, that would be good to have. Mostly to justify my own expenditures.

    Personally, I only use them to help me, amateur wheelbuilder, control/prevent spoke wind up.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I've been flexing my rear rim under hard cornering forces into my chain stay and my bike shop has had to replace spokes and true my wheel a handful of times.
    I have the flat Sapim spokes on a rear heavy duty Nobl CF wheel. The spokes are all oriented so that they point forward and back.
    The bike shop mechanic told me "the sapims are a good choice for a road bike as they are more aero. However you would have more lateral side to side strength with a round spoke, and the way you ride, you need it. "
    I think it's pretty obvious that with the flat side facing out, that spoke is going to move more in that plane.
    Now maybe Poly spokes stretch more, yet pop back, and if you can spare the clearance, that's going to work really well? I dunno.
    I'm not sure for an aggressively ridden, enduro 29er, Poly spokes are a good choice. Not sure.
    For my wife's gently ridden 27.5" rig, the Poly spokes seem ideal.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

  198. #198
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    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?

    Quote Originally Posted by robbnj View Post
    From what I know of "rope", it is braided and generally will have more "stretchability" than the same material made as a solid strand of the same or even smaller thickness (of course, until it reaches maximum stretch).

    I understand that if the UHMWPE rope-spoke is tensioned the same as a metal spoke, the whole assembly will act just like a common bike wheel.

    Where my train of understanding derails is your statement that tension has little to do with the lateral flex of the rim with relation to it running true to the hub.
    I'm asking that if tension has little to do with it (lateral flex), does it mean little or no lateral flex will occur even if tension is reduced on all spokes in a traditional setup?


    And a question that's more on-topic: If the rope has to be tensioned to match a metal spoke's tension, why not use a solid strand of the UHMWPE instead of rope?
    (or was it an issue of how to connect a solid strand to the rim and hub?)
    Because you cant tie a knot in a solid strand of UHMWPE.

    And you obviously cant splice it.

    And, regarding your tension question, read the link I posted. Damon Rinard answers your question. He even posts a graph to illustrate exactly what happens with each quarter turn, decreasing tension.


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  199. #199
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    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    I've been flexing my rear rim under hard cornering forces into my chain stay and my bike shop has had to replace spokes and true my wheel a handful of times.
    I have the flat Sapim spokes on a rear heavy duty Nobl CF wheel. The spokes are all oriented so that they point forward and back.
    The bike shop mechanic told me "the sapims are a good choice for a road bike as they are more aero. However you would have more lateral side to side strength with a round spoke, and the way you ride, you need it. "
    I think it's pretty obvious that with the flat side facing out, that spoke is going to move more in that plane.
    Now maybe Poly spokes stretch more, yet pop back, and if you can spare the clearance, that's going to work really well? I dunno.
    I'm not sure for an aggressively ridden, enduro 29er, Poly spokes are a good choice. Not sure.
    For my wife's gently ridden 27.5" rig, the Poly spokes seem ideal.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    If your mechanic uses the words strength there, thats the first sign that he has no clue what hes talking about.

    Id like him to explain how two spokes, with the same cross sectional area, and same material, are going to move differently if they are anchored in the same place at each end. What he said makes no sense and doesnt match up with what materials scientists have known for years.

    Heres a good thread:

    Https://weightweenies.starbike.com/f...c.php?t=125588

    Please read all the way through.

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  200. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    And, regarding your tension question, read the link I posted. Damon Rinard answers your question. He even posts a graph to illustrate exactly what happens with each quarter turn, decreasing tension.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I did read it. My takeaway (based on his statement - I am not an engineer) is that a reduction of tension DOES increase lateral flexibility, but the deflection is not significant when dealing with very light lateral loads (25 pounds) as seen on a road bike.

    He only used 25 pounds in order to show deflection occurs, but he was afraid to damage a wheel by using more weight than that.

    I wonder what kind of lateral load a 200lb rider exerts on an MTB wheel when cornering hard at a reasonable speed? I'd have to guess it's more than 25 pounds? My bike weights about 26 pounds. I would think that just standing it at a 45 degree angle would put about 6 pounds lateral load on each wheel (25lbs/2 wheels=12.5, 12.5/2 to account for the 45 angle= 6 lbs)

    Perhaps on a road wheel that sees little to no lateral stress spoke tension has little importance, but on an MTB wheel that sees high lateral loads, it would be far more important?
    <making sure I'm not in a road bike discussion as I type this>

    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-image.jpg

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