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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    Oh cmmon, this is a DIY project If it ever would hit the market it would be because it is so different from Berd that it makes sense to market it.

    I wouldn't market until I could improve on the hub interface and materials used. My chemistry background is coming in handy DM20 isn't the only material out there like this.
    Is it likely they'll take action, no. However, full disclosure is that they can solely based on the fact of it being made. Commercialization has no bearing in the matter.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  2. #102
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    Okashira and I have had the patent infringement discussion in PMs. I bring it up because it's such a common misconception, but the statute provides:

    whoever without authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the United States, or imports into the United States any patented invention during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.

    So, even making one or two or three in your garage is patent infringement for which one can be sued. However, patent infringement lawsuits are very expensive and no patent owner is likely to sue you for making a few infringing products that don't significantly cut into the market for the product.

    Berd's patent hasn't been granted yet, so there's nothing to sue over. But it will be granted soon.

  3. #103
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    Why not Kevlar, after all? Its available for cheap at retail. Cursory search gave $23 for a roll of 700# test, 1.8mm rope from Emma Kites via Amazon. That would be a bikes worth. Its not obvious if its name brand Kevlar or which version. I guess you could call and find out. You could also paint it with PU.

    Spinergy Spox are still available, I just looked. They are made of a fiber called PBO, trade name Zylon.

  4. #104
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    I was just reminiscing about bending piano wire (spring steel) to make landing gear, or worse, rubber motor hooks, for my model airplanes. That stuff was tempered hard. Looking up spokes, even CX-Ray spokes are not as hard as that stuff is, and a straight spoke is less than half the strength. Made me unafraid of both trying to bend it, or the result breaking because of the bend.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwiceHorn View Post
    Okashira and I have had the patent infringement discussion in PMs.(...)
    I don't want to start a discussion about patent infringement, but apart from the type of fiber, that is commercially available, and that has a splice loop at one end of the rope, that they can't reclaim patent, what we are talking about is, in my opinion, different enough to not infringe their patent.
    To be completely honest I don't even think that they have enough ground to be granted a patent on their product, but it's not my job to judge, I just like to thinker with things.
    But I honestly do want to know your opinion on if we will be infringing their patent if we build a spoke the way we have been speaking, I ask this because you clearly know more about patents than me and, I bet, more than most reading this thread.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Aglo; 11-03-2018 at 02:46 AM.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    I was just reminiscing about bending piano wire (spring steel) to make landing gear, or worse, rubber motor hooks, for my model airplanes. That stuff was tempered hard. Looking up spokes, even CX-Ray spokes are not as hard as that stuff is, and a straight spoke is less than half the strength. Made me unafraid of both trying to bend it, or the result breaking because of the bend.
    Are you talking about making an eye by bending a spoke?
    If so, think about it this way, J-bend spokes are bent spokes .

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    Are you talking about making an eye by bending a spoke?
    If so, think about it this way, J-bend spokes are bent spokes .
    Yeah but that's done with a lot of tooling and some science. I want to do it with a pair of pliers and my hands. How good is good enough?

  8. #108
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    The most importar thing on my opinion is precision and repeatability, the best and fastest way to achieve this is to use/make a rig.
    So, three or four removable pins and a fixed nut to thread and fix the spoke should be all we need.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    Why not Kevlar, after all? Its available for cheap at retail. Cursory search gave $23 for a roll of 700# test, 1.8mm rope from Emma Kites via Amazon. That would be a bikes worth. Its not obvious if its name brand Kevlar or which version. I guess you could call and find out. You could also paint it with PU.

    Spinergy Spox are still available, I just looked. They are made of a fiber called PBO, trade name Zylon.
    Both vectran or pbo would be a better choice then Kevlar.
    Compared to all 4, DM20 has the best
    Uv resistance
    Strength/weight
    chemical resistance
    Abrasion resistance

    It's available. I will post up a source for 1.5 mm size also.
    I think I posted a a source for 1.8mm vectran as well

    Kevlars abrasion resistance and poor chemical resistance really makes it hard to use for spokes

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    I had to think for 3sec on what you were talking about with Z-bend .

    When I was talking about bending a spoke and braze it with brass I was referring to something like the picture bellow, the yellowish area is where the braze is made.

    Attachment 1223164
    I kinda like this, worth a try.
    TBH this might be a good way to produce these easily.
    Have them CNC wire bent from spring steel. Then manually braze them all. or figure out a way to lock it without a braze.

  11. #111
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    @Aglo I am liking your idea of bending a wire around to make a loop.
    We could have spring steel wire CNC bent into that shape, and brazing can be done in large quantities in an oven, just place a 10mm long piece of braze rod right on the joint and pop it in the oven.
    Use a low enough temperature braze filler and one can maintain some pretty good hardness on the wire.
    CNC wire bending:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQIYZ-iKuG4

    They could be bent, quenched, then the brazing process and tempering could be combined in 1 step; threads rolled after brazing.

    round spring steel wire has the further advantage of making a nice smooth round for the splice to sit on.

  12. #112
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    @Aglo I am liking your idea of bending a wire around to make a loop.
    We could have spring steel wire CNC bent into that shape, and brazing can be done in large quantities in an oven, just place a 10mm long piece of braze rod right on the joint and pop it in the oven.
    Use a low enough temperature braze filler and one can maintain some pretty good hardness on the wire.
    CNC wire bending:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQIYZ-iKuG4

    They could be bent, quenched, then the brazing process and tempering could be combined in 1 step; threads rolled after brazing.

    round spring steel wire has the further advantage of making a nice smooth round for the splice to sit on.
    http://www.amtekcompany.com/diwire-d...c-wire-bender/

  13. #113
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    Other sources for DM20

    https://www.armare.it/en/arc?arc[identificatoreLineaProdotti]=76&arc[identificatoreProdotto]=1354&arc[identificatoreCalza]=0
    ^^ nice website where you can order any size/braid.
    I have a feeling if you contact them they can do some 1.5 or 1.8mm DM20

    https://www.teufelberger.com/pub/med...5-2016_web.pdf
    Page 6
    ^^^ 350kg rated DM20 @1.5mm!. Nice

    Contact Us - Sky International - we are open 6 days a week
    ^Chinese supplier

  14. #114
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    https://www.mapquest.com/us/massachu...tion-368977017

    Seems like teufelberger and new england ropes are related.

    Might be worth asking to get some 1.5mm DM20 racing line.

    1.5mm would really make my eyebolt design much stronger/lighter since.. smaller hole.

  15. #115
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    I am not a patent lawyer, so I am all ears to what others have to say.

    Does Pi-Rope have a patent on Vectran Polyester for spokes? How do they secure their end bolts to the Vectran braid? If it's indeed adhesive I wonder what kind of strength they can get.

    This is a huge point of frustration for me, why can you just go out there and patent your favorite material for your favorite purpose? In my world of work, this would be akin to patenting your favorite gene for designing drugs for a certain cancer so nobody else can work on it (which was ruled against at the highest levels of jurisdiction). What's the diff?

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    I am not a patent lawyer, so I am all ears to what others have to say.

    Does Pi-Rope have a patent on Vectran Polyester for spokes? How do they secure their end bolts to the Vectran braid? If it's indeed adhesive I wonder what kind of strength they can get.

    This is a huge point of frustration for me, why can you just go out there and patent your favorite material for your favorite purpose? In my world of work, this would be akin to patenting your favorite gene for designing drugs for a certain cancer so nobody else can work on it (which was ruled against at the highest levels of jurisdiction). What's the diff?
    Generally speaking you cannot patent a new use for a known material. However, if that material must be modified in some way to make it work (as by using the "bury splice" to fix a metallic pin in the fiber), then the combination of the material and the modification may be patentable.

    When the Berd patent issues, its claims are simple enough that I will come back here and post them and do a little thumbnail analysis that might be useful for some of the peanut gallery. I'm on a number of hobby boards where patents come up rather frequently and so maybe it will be nice to correct some of the misapprehensions about them.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    I am not a patent lawyer, so I am all ears to what others have to say.

    Does Pi-Rope have a patent on Vectran Polyester for spokes? How do they secure their end bolts to the Vectran braid? If it's indeed adhesive I wonder what kind of strength they can get.

    This is a huge point of frustration for me, why can you just go out there and patent your favorite material for your favorite purpose? In my world of work, this would be akin to patenting your favorite gene for designing drugs for a certain cancer so nobody else can work on it (which was ruled against at the highest levels of jurisdiction). What's the diff?
    no!! There is no patent for vectran or dm20 for use on spokes.
    Berds pending patent is very specific , related to their buried spoke end, super glue and their pulling the splice thru the hub and using the short piece of dyneema to hold it in the hub.
    There is no mention of material.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    no!! There is no patent for vectran or dm20 for use on spokes.
    Berds pending patent is very specific , related to their buried spoke end, super glue and their pulling the splice thru the hub and using the short piece of dyneema to hold it in the hub.
    There is no mention of material.
    yeah that is how it looks

    the method they patent is the way of using standard hubs and standard rims for a braided fiber spoke...and what is patented is the hub connection and the chinese finger trap thing

    maybe...I am no lawyer...
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  19. #119
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    Back to Kevlar (since I'm lazy). If we are wetting it out with PU then do we really need to worry about abrasion or UV resistance? The stuff from Emma Kites was black, too, not yellow, which should help.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    Back to Kevlar (since I'm lazy). If we are wetting it out with PU then do we really need to worry about abrasion or UV resistance? The stuff from Emma Kites was black, too, not yellow, which should help.
    Do you already just happen to have some ~1.8mm kevlar?
    I don't think PU will help much with the abrasion. You could just rub right through it. I think you'd want a double braided / covered rope. It's the actual UHMWPE fibers that resist abrasion because they are so slick and tough.
    It is also less chemical resistant. UHMWPE will just last alot longer.
    I have a 100m roll, and I think that sissy ordered 100m roll so we can sell you some of it.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    Do you already just happen to have some ~1.8mm kevlar?
    I don't think PU will help much with the abrasion. You could just rub right through it. I think you'd want a double braided / covered rope. It's the actual UHMWPE fibers that resist abrasion because they are so slick and tough.
    It is also less chemical resistant. UHMWPE will just last alot longer.
    I have a 100m roll, and I think that sissy ordered 100m roll so we can sell you some of it.
    I actually haven't pulled the trigger on that roll yet. I'm kind of not sure yet whether I'm going to pull the trigger on this project unless we can distribute costs on whatever eyebolt design we come up with. I want to make sure the numbers add up.

    This seems to be the most easily accessible product out there:

    https://www.amazon.com/Mastrant-MM02...DQX/ref=sr_1_1

    It's 2mm instead of 1.8mm, so for all practical purposes, basically the same thing. If the 1.8mm roll is still available I would get that though.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    I actually haven't pulled the trigger on that roll yet. I'm kind of not sure yet whether I'm going to pull the trigger on this project unless we can distribute costs on whatever eyebolt design we come up with. I want to make sure the numbers add up.

    This seems to be the most easily accessible product out there:

    https://www.amazon.com/Mastrant-MM02...DQX/ref=sr_1_1

    It's 2mm instead of 1.8mm, so for all practical purposes, basically the same thing. If the 1.8mm roll is still available I would get that though.
    That won't work. I already got some. It's not braided. And it's 2mm with the polyester cover.
    Mastrant shipped me samples direct from the Czech Republic; only the cover is braided, not the DM20.

  23. #123
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    Oh, thanks for checking already! I emailed the supplier and they said the rope was 2mm but apparently they werent familiar with the product. Maybe Ill pull the trigger on the rope from the supplier you sent me.

    Braided vectran wouldnt work for our application?

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    Oh, thanks for checking already! I emailed the supplier and they said the rope was 2mm but apparently they werent familiar with the product. Maybe Ill pull the trigger on the rope from the supplier you sent me.

    Braided vectran wouldnt work for our application?
    Vectran is good. I would say it's the 2nd best choice to DM20.

    Not as chemical resistant or abrasion resistant and not as stiff.
    But much better then Kevlar

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    I have a 100m roll, and I think that sissy ordered 100m roll so we can sell you some of it.
    Thank you for your kind offer but I think part of the goal here should be that anyone crafty can do it with supplies they can get easily. That's one major reason I keep harping on other fibers and bending straight spokes to make the ends. I don't mind being in on a group buy to lower the price. I've been doing those since usenet. But so far the Dyneema has an embargo and the Ti ends just seem like more luxury than engineering.

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    Thank you for your kind offer but I think part of the goal here should be that anyone crafty can do it with supplies they can get easily. That's one major reason I keep harping on other fibers and bending straight spokes to make the ends. I don't mind being in on a group buy to lower the price. I've been doing those since usenet. But so far the Dyneema has an embargo and the Ti ends just seem like more luxury than engineering.
    @Darth
    Glad you would be part of a group buy.
    Dont be a negative nancy, lol.
    There is no "embargo" on dyneema. I have literally posted places to buy stuff at least three times.

    I have received confirmation armare will make DM20 in any size. Just send them an email. They are sending me some 1.25mm.
    You will probably have to order while/clear color and email them. I will confirm.

    I just just ordered 1.25mm SK99 racing line on their website, and sent them an email:Name:  Capture.JPG
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  27. #127
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    I forgot to post contact how I got Marlow 1.8mm DM20, since I already recieved my roll.
    https://www.chicagoyachtrigging.com/
    email Kristian, he is very helpful. He was able to drop ship a reel from Marlow.

    Here is my order info from Armare. You will probably have to order 100m minimum.
    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-capture2.jpg

  28. #128
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    Here is what I think ill do for my front wheel spokes....

    For my rear wheel, I ended up with a 28H because of a deal I got on a DT Swiss 180 hub, so I'll use 1.8mm DM20 with some custom ends that we're designing (or a bury)

    For my front wheel, Ill go for a 36H or 40H and use these spokes:
    無標題文件
    PSR AERO 1432

    They are 3.2mm wide, which is perfect. I'll drill a 1.35mm hole in the flat section and thread the 2mm end longer. Perfect.
    It will reduce the strength of the spoke, to perhaps 200kg or so, which is why ill use the smaller 1.25mm line and a higher spoke count with a bit lower tension.

  29. #129
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    Another good option; these were hard to find:
    無標題文件
    https://www.bikeonlineshop.net/pilla...45-spoke-black

    They are 13g. I might use these, and use a belt sander to get the diameter down to 2.0mm , before rolling threads on them.

    I received the 2.6mm / 2.3mm butted spokes I ordered, will take them to a machine shop to try and flatten the 2.6mm end when I get a chance this week.


    *******************************
    I was about to send this design off to a USA mfg, but I realized I need to do a strength test with a splice around 1.1mm thick material, to see if it needs to be thicker....
    If anyone has any comments now would be the time before I send it for quote and engage a manufacturer.
    I will send it to these guys first; I have worked with them before.
    Case Studies - Buyken Metal Products - CNC, Metal Fabrication, Quality, Kent Washington

    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-capture.jpg
    Last edited by okashira; 11-07-2018 at 08:44 PM.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    Another good option; these were hard to find:
    無標題文件
    https://www.bikeonlineshop.net/pilla...45-spoke-black

    They are 13g. I might use these, and use a belt sander to get the diameter down to 2.0mm , before rolling threads on them.

    I received the 2.6mm / 2.3mm butted spokes I ordered, will take them to a machine shop to try and flatten the 2.6mm end when I get a chance this week.


    *******************************
    I was about to send this design off to a USA mfg, but I realized I need to do a strength test with a splice around 1.1mm thick material, to see if it needs to be thicker....
    If anyone has any comments now would be the time before I send it for quote and engage a manufacturer.
    I will send it to these guys first; I have worked with them before.
    Case Studies - Buyken Metal Products - CNC, Metal Fabrication, Quality, Kent Washington

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I like the design a lot, I hope it works well!

    Glad to hear you've got a manufacturer ready to roll.

  31. #131
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    Here is a wire bent design as suggested by someone here...
    Weight comes to 1.1g or so.
    Manufacturing is an issue. Can't braze spring steel it because it would soften too much. Can't weld spring steel.
    Can't weld 302ss because it would also be softened.
    Brazing cold worked 302ss may work.

    Edit: actually welding might work. The wire pressed together and ultrasonically welded or maybe even spot welded.
    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-capture.jpg
    Last edited by okashira; 11-08-2018 at 10:44 PM.

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    Guys, I will be in Shanghai from the 19th to the 5th.
    I don't have alot of time in the meantime, but if anyone finds some relevant supplier in Shanghai. I may be able to visit them for quotes or some manufacturing guideance or prototype inspection.

    I'll bring some DM20 with me that i can splice into any prototype parts for strength testing

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    Okashira has already reviewed these, but since there's a bit of a collaborative effort on this, figured I'd post the other two major fiber/flexible spoke patents for the inspiration/consideration of others.

    This is kind of the pioneer and may be a bit speculative. https://patents.google.com/patent/US5110190A

    This is one of another set of three that may pursue a red herring https://patents.google.com/patent/US8794714B2

    The reason we have patents in the first place is to document ideas so that others can rely on them in their own work. Sometimes these failed or unsuccessful for uknown reasons ideas can provide important inspiration to others.

  34. #134
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    Regarding the 2.3mm(13G) alloy nipples, besides Sapim and Pillar that I can't find available anywhere, I found some guys that you might want try to contact: https://www.newsonsportec.com/

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    Here is a wire bent design as suggested by someone here...
    Weight comes to 1.1g or so.
    Manufacturing is an issue. Can't braze spring steel it because it would soften too much. Can't weld spring steel.
    Can't weld 302ss because it would also be softened.
    Brazing cold worked 302ss may work.

    Edit: actually welding might work. The wire pressed together and ultrasonically welded or maybe even spot welded.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I arrived at the same conclusion as you.
    I also considered spot welding, but I don't think it will work because the spokes are too thin, but I'm no expert on welding, so it may work.
    Other option that occurred to me was to leave a bigger tail after the loop and wrap it around the spoke for a couple of turns and solder the wrap, but don't know if it will hold.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    I arrived at the same conclusion as you.
    I also considered spot welding, but I don't think it will work because the spokes are too thin, but I'm no expert on welding, so it may work.
    Other option that occurred to me was to leave a bigger tail after the loop and wrap it around the spoke for a couple of turns and solder the wrap, but don't know if it will hold.
    electronic spot welding would do that perfectly methinks.
    current is adjustable. it's commonly used for thin metals that can't take too much heat
    such as lithium battery straps
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  37. #137
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    how would you connect to the loop, like a larkshead ?

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  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    how would you connect to the loop, like a larkshead ?

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    Spot welding, ultra sonic welding, or brazing 302ss.

    I was also looking for an idea like this, it would make the cost really low even for lower quantities using CNC wire bending. But I am worried the extra material to make a knot or self locking mechanism as such would add alot of weight.

    1.1g is still pretty good. It gives a final spoke weight of about 2.15g for a 29er using 1.8mm DM20.

  39. #139
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    Buyken declined to quote.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQAMWzrByL4
    This could work well for the 302ss wire bend design.

    drawn 302ss wire in 2mm is available all the way to 300,000psi tensile strength (660kg break strength!) at very low cost.
    That's probably too hard, we will want something like 1/2 hard, or 180,000psi, so the bends can be made and threads rolled.

    As long as the HAZ (heat affected zone) of the weld doesn't extend out of the area where the wire is doubled up, it will remain nice and strong.

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwiceHorn View Post
    Okashira has already reviewed these, but since there's a bit of a collaborative effort on this, figured I'd post the other two major fiber/flexible spoke patents for the inspiration/consideration of others.

    This is kind of the pioneer and may be a bit speculative. https://patents.google.com/patent/US5110190A

    This is one of another set of three that may pursue a red herring https://patents.google.com/patent/US8794714B2

    The reason we have patents in the first place is to document ideas so that others can rely on them in their own work. Sometimes these failed or unsuccessful for uknown reasons ideas can provide important inspiration to others.
    Thanks TwiceHorn.

    Yeah Spinergy's method is pretty cool.

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    @sissypants So you had a quote for gr5 titanium part.
    For some reason I thought gr5 Ti was pure Ti, which it's not. It IS 6Al-4V.

  43. #143
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    https://www.ebay.com/itm/5Pcs-Titani...19vK:rk:2:pf:0

    Use with the Berd method and get a 1.9g spoke.

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    Here is a wire bent design as suggested by someone here...
    Weight comes to 1.1g or so.
    Manufacturing is an issue. Can't braze spring steel it because it would soften too much. Can't weld spring steel.
    Can't weld 302ss because it would also be softened.
    Brazing cold worked 302ss may work.

    Edit: actually welding might work. The wire pressed together and ultrasonically welded or maybe even spot welded.
    It'd be funny if you could call it electroforged like a Schwinn Varsity or a Stingray.

    Also, tied and soldered spokes used to be a thing. https://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/ty...ing-made-easy/

    I laughed a little at item 4 on that page's list. "A time when the price of labor was lower and craftsmanship was valued more highly." One of those clauses can be true but not both in the same sentence!

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    I laughed a little at item 4 on that page's list. "A time when the price of labor was lower and craftsmanship was valued more highly." One of those clauses can be true but not both in the same sentence!
    It depends honestly. In an employer sided market it can hold true. Wages are low due to a surplus in able bodied workers and workers are just thankful to have a job are not complacent and go above and beyond to keep it.

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  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    how would you connect to the loop, like a larkshead ?

    Name:  looop.JPG
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    That is an option but we could just splice through the eye like we have being talking. But I think your suggestion would put less stress on the rope.

    @okashira, if instead of making the eye with a round shape we make a tear drop shape, it would be less susceptible to stretch and probably lighter.

    Do you think the 302ss is easily rolled with the Hozan head?
    Last edited by Aglo; 11-10-2018 at 07:52 AM.

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    That is an option but we could just splice through the eye like we have being talking. But I think your suggestion would put less stress on the rope.

    @okashira, if instead of making the eye with a round shape we make a tear drop shape, it would be less susceptible to stretch and probably lighter.

    Do you think the 302ss is easily rolled with the Hozan head?
    Most spokes are 302ss.

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    Most spokes are 302ss.
    If I recall correctly my Sapin and DT are non-magnetic so you are most probably right. But I am almost sure my Wheelsmith are magnetic, have to check it later to be sure.
    Anyway, I ordered a 300Kg scale and some non chromed plated silver stainless spokes to do some brazing tests.
    Now I want to order some 12 strands Dyneema DM20 rope, either 2mm or 1.8mm, but I'm a little lost here, I know you should be extra busy now, but can you help me here and share some links of sellers that ship to Europe?
    Thanks.

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    If I recall correctly my Sapin and DT are non-magnetic so you are most probably right. But I am almost sure my Wheelsmith are magnetic, have to check it later to be sure.
    Anyway, I ordered a 300Kg scale and some non chromed plated silver stainless spokes to do some brazing tests.
    Now I want to order some 12 strands Dyneema DM20 rope, either 2mm or 1.8mm, but I'm a little lost here, I know you should be extra busy now, but can you help me here and share some links of sellers that ship to Europe?
    Thanks.
    Two places
    Marlow 1.8mm
    Email Chicago Yacht Rigging.

    Armare.it
    https://www.armare.it/en/

    I ordered some SK99, kite line on their website, 1.25mm. I then emailed them if they could make it from DM20
    They said yes and changed the order to DM20, same price.

    I think they have 1, 1.25, 1.5, 1.8 and 2



    On 302ss, 302ss is non magnetic when annealed, but becomes magnetic as you cold work it. The spokes that you have that are magnetic are probably just more cold worked.

  50. #150
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    I have a Ti company looking at custom forging.
    Ti 6Al-4V. aka Grade 5.
    This part would be 0.5g. or 1.6g for whole spoke.

    Cut off threads after tension and you can get 1.4-1.5g.

    The extra thread length is needed, helpful. I am shooting for 22-24mm long. You can always cut off excess.
    Longer threads makes it easier to get the length right.Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-capture.jpg

    Can also do 1.8mm with 302ss, perhaps, about 0.8g.

  51. #151
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    @okashira--check your PM's. I sent you one yesterday.

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    @Zionic sorry they are sold.

    I am getting about 275kg break strength for this design. Good enough, IMHO, even for 28 spoke wheels. Amazing for 1.4g-1.6g spokes.
    The eye and the shaft fail at about the same time.

    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-animate22.gif

  53. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    @sissypants So you had a quote for gr5 titanium part.
    For some reason I thought gr5 Ti was pure Ti, which it's not. It IS 6Al-4V.
    Sorry for the delay, yes, it was from Dongguan Weimi Titanium parts. They were quoting $1.27/pc @ 1000 pcs and $1/pc @1500 pcs. They were rolling threads and forging the bolts. It was grade 5 titanium.

    Best way to reach them in particular is on Alibaba, but I'm sure there are more options out there.

  54. #154
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    @sissy,
    Ok I sent them the new design.

    Here is the file for the cutter jig if you have a 3D printer. The taper works great. No need for the tedious tapering of the tail.
    you can print out mm measurements on paper and glue/tape it if you want.
    https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuqwBZb5n5Jqg_YY0IsM9fDLRtww2A

    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-img_20181113_115747.jpg

  55. #155
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    @sissy

    Here is what I got from the supplier you shared:

    "CNC Machining service can macnufacture this parts, actually, Forged service need more lager quantity support."

    Are you sure they said they would forge the part for qty 1,000?

    My other Ti place says they think the qty will need to be 5,000 for a forging. They are still working on the quote.

  56. #156
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    This is the last time I'll be able to work on this for 2-3 weeks...

    The 6Al-4V Ti 2mm rod came in, and I picked up a used Hozan threader locally.
    It was a little finicky, but I was able to thread the rod just fine as long as you don't roll the threads too deep and you're really careful about the start.

    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-img_20181115_222701.jpg
    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-img_20181115_222758.jpg

    You're not a real weight weenie until you have a milligram scale. :-D
    I realized I weighed it before I had tapered the tail... after tapering the tail it came in under 2.0g :-D
    Could be 1.9 but I am making the thread and the end extra long.

    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-img_20181115_224813.jpg Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-img_20181115_225238.jpg

    Video..https://youtu.be/rxFxiSyZZH4
    The spoke on the right/top has been there tensioned for about 5 days. stainless steel end.
    The bottom one is the Ti end one.

    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-img_20181115_231622.jpg

    Still waiting on some quotes for custom eye bolts.


    Soon, "lacing your rims," or "Lacing your hubs," will no longer be a mis-nomer!\
    There are all sorts of neat lacing patterns I can envision folks coming up with. Perhaps use one piece of polymer to lace both a drive side and non-drive side, where the polymer takes a 90 turn thru the hub holes, and passes drive to non drive parallel to the hub.

    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-img_20181115_233455.jpg
    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-img_20181115_233459.jpgMake your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-img_20181115_233506.jpgMake your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-img_20181115_233637.jpg

  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    @sissy

    Here is what I got from the supplier you shared:

    "CNC Machining service can macnufacture this parts, actually, Forged service need more lager quantity support."

    Are you sure they said they would forge the part for qty 1,000?

    My other Ti place says they think the qty will need to be 5,000 for a forging. They are still working on the quote.

    This was their reply:

    Hi,

    Thanks for your quick response. :-)

    Actually, our pirce is really not expensive, however, Zach, i really want to match your work, and getting back to you the first time,

    so i have just called our manager for discuss your project, and good news i get discount for you,haha~ :-)

    There are two proposals, i hope this help. :-)

    1. 1000pcs, US$1.27/1PCS
    2. 1500pcs, US$1 /1PCS

    Please let me know if you have any concerns.

    Many Thanks,

    Madelyn
    In retrospect I don't think it was clear whether we were discussing machining or forging.

    I talked to a friend of mine who owns a successful machine shop in Grand Rapids, MI (where I live) and he said he didn't think forging would be economical under 10,000 pieces. He said machining the bolts and rolling the threads would be the best way to go, and 7075 would be just fine given the tension we'll be using. He also was very skeptical of brazing or welding a bent spoke together as brazing adds material (makes it heavier) and isn't nearly as strong as a machined eye, and welding would just break guaranteed.

    He was happy to do a run of 1,000 pieces on a friend basis, but I have no idea about his pricing. I know I'd get a discount, but not a huge one because margins aren't super big. He does have about 40 CNC machines though.

  58. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    This was their reply:



    In retrospect I don't think it was clear whether we were discussing machining or forging.

    I talked to a friend of mine who owns a successful machine shop in Grand Rapids, MI (where I live) and he said he didn't think forging would be economical under 10,000 pieces. He said machining the bolts and rolling the threads would be the best way to go, and 7075 would be just fine given the tension we'll be using. He also was very skeptical of brazing or welding a bent spoke together as brazing adds material (makes it heavier) and isn't nearly as strong as a machined eye, and welding would just break guaranteed.

    He was happy to do a run of 1,000 pieces on a friend basis, but I have no idea about his pricing. I know I'd get a discount, but not a huge one because margins aren't super big. He does have about 40 CNC machines though.
    That's great. Ask him to do a run of 500-1000, at least for prototype and testing purpose!
    6Al-4V, please! 7075 is just not strong enough for 14ga, especially machined. Even forged would be iffy at 13ga, and 13ga alum nipples are hard to find.
    Sure it will hold 120kg of tension, but it will break at 200kg new, and fatigue down to 100kg in 1,000 miles.

  59. #159
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    You guys are making great progress. Hoping to sponge off of y'all's hard work and brains in time.

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  60. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    That's great. Ask him to do a run of 500-1000, at least for prototype and testing purpose!
    6Al-4V, please! 7075 is just not strong enough for 14ga, especially machined. Even forged would be iffy at 13ga, and 13ga alum nipples are hard to find.
    Sure it will hold 120kg of tension, but it will break at 200kg new, and fatigue down to 100kg in 1,000 miles.
    Edit: Will post up after I get a quote.
    Last edited by sissypants; 11-16-2018 at 08:18 PM.

  61. #161
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    Just a heads up:

    Chicago Yacht Righing is no longer carrying/selling DM20.




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  62. #162
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    Ive been emailing Manuela from Armare. Hoping to get a quote tomorrow.

    Out of curiosity, what is the diameter of 2.0mm DM20 at proper tension?


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  63. #163
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    That's some really impressive engineering/manufacturing. Berd's patent will issue on 12/11 and I can give you guys the claim/coverage summary.

  64. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwiceHorn View Post
    That's some really impressive engineering/manufacturing. Berd's patent will issue on 12/11 and I can give you guys the claim/coverage summary.
    I'm all ears and appreciate your expertise!

    I'm sure Berd is reading this thread as well

    The only thing that my approach and Berd's approach have in common is the use of DM20 rope.
    • Eyebolts will be used which thread directly into the nipples, unlike a threaded rod which threads directly into the nipples
    • The rope is spliced through the eye of the eyebolt, unlike the threaded rod which is buried into the rope core and held in place with adhesive when not under tension.
    • The rope is fixed to the hub by a bury splice around the hub flange, unlike a bury splice which is pulled through the flange and fixed with a small strand of fiber placed through the splice loop on the inside of the flange.
    • I'm using DM20 2.0mm rope instead of DM20 1.8mm.


    My use of the bury splice at the hub flange is different in design, though I'd be interested to hear your opinion on whether Berd could claim rights to any bury splice used in any manner to secure the spoke to a hub.

  65. #165
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    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?

    Sky International dont carry any DM20 below 3mm.

    Dropped Teufelberger an email asking about their 1.5mm DM20. Although, according to them/their catalog, they seem to make SK99 stuff with similar performance as it pertains to stretch and creep. Well see if they get back to me.

    Still waiting to hear back from Manuela at Armare. Might try emailing that other contact listed above.


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  66. #166
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    Same problem here, can't find DM20 stuff thinner than 3mm.
    I emailed Armare, and Manuela got back to me asking what diameters and quantities I want, but have not heard from her since my reply.

  67. #167
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    I got some 1.25 Dm20 from Armare no problem.. 100meters.
    I just ordered sk99 racing line and replied to their email asking to change to dm20.
    It's been delivered already but im still in China until the 6th.

  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Ive been emailing Manuela from Armare. Hoping to get a quote tomorrow.

    Out of curiosity, what is the diameter of 2.0mm DM20 at proper tension?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The Marlow DM20 I got is near 1.7mm under tension.
    I think 2.0 is a bit overkill.
    1.5 or 1.8 is better IMHO
    The Armare 1.25 I got was rated at like 268kg break strength

    Sucks to hear you guys can't get Dm20 from cyr. But i think Armare Italy will work out. They didn't have a problem with my 100meter custom order.

  69. #169
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    I asked if I could order 50m. I wonder if they just didnt want to do an order that small.

    Ill re-engage with a bigger order length. I'm going to try to order 100m of 1.5mm DM20 from Armare.

    That said, if anyone is interested in parting with some of their material, I'd certainly be interested in relieving you of your excess DM20.

    Likewise, I'll gladly sell some of my DM20 if/when I'm actually able to order it. 100m, even with massive waste of material and using 400mm per spoke, would still make 250 spokes.


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    Last edited by Le Duke; 12-02-2018 at 01:15 PM.
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  70. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    The Marlow DM20 I got is near 1.7mm under tension.
    I think 2.0 is a bit overkill.
    1.5 or 1.8 is better IMHO
    The Armare 1.25 I got was rated at like 268kg break strength

    Sucks to hear you guys can't get Dm20 from cyr. But i think Armare Italy will work out. They didn't have a problem with my 100meter custom order.
    So, I've been reading up on some of the Dyneema materials.

    Depending the material, they (various manufacturers) generally recommend that the static load is no higher than 20% of the break strength. Is that going to impact your plans, particularly with the 1.25mm DM20, and its 268kg break strength?

    That said, I was looking at Mastrant's 2mm DM20 guy rope, which has a 75 daN working load and a 250 daN strength, which works out to 30%.

    Am I thinking about this the wrong way?
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  71. #171
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    No, you're being logical.
    You can go for more then 20% though, since the application is well constrained and not shock loaded like, say, riggings or safety lines.
    1.25mm would be better for 36 or 40 spokes wheels.
    I would go for 1.8mm for 28 or 32.
    Armares 1.8mm dm20 is good for like > 350kg.

    I already posted this about Mastrants guy rope you don't want to use that stuff... it's with a cover and the core is not braided
    What we need is called "single braid" or "hollow braid" or "12-stand"
    None of Mastrants products are appropriate.

    2mm single braid DM20 would probably break at 400kg if it is quality stuff.

  72. #172
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    Here is how I ordered.
    Select racing line or kite line.
    Select single braid/no cover.
    Select WHITE or CLEAR color.
    Chose your size and order 100m.

    Then email them and ask for DM20 instead. They said the sk99 and dm20 same price.

    I don't know if they offer 1.8. you could order 2.0 and ask if they can target 1.8.

    Maybe the kite line has an option for 1.8.



    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-screenshot_20181203-130621__01.jpg
    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-screenshot_20181203-130736.jpg

    They may not want to be bothered with setting up custom orders via email. I'm sure they get alot of inquiry without people following through.
    If you order and pay in advance, you'll get better service, I think.
    Their english also seems a bit limited.

  73. #173
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    Does DM20 gradually recover from its stretch if the load is removed, like rubber? I was wondering if the spokes could be pre-stretched, and then how much time you would have before they got a few mm shorter again.

    (although I can't think of a really good way to put that much force on that many spokes at home without just going ahead and building them into a wheel)

  74. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    Will post up after I get a quote.
    So my friend who owns a machine shop got back with me and said that this product at this scale is just not economical for him as he isn't set up to do these kinds of projects. He did try to make it work and talked to guys. He also tapped two other local shop owners who do small stuff but they didn't feel they could offer a competitive price.

    Unless any of you have a connection, I think outsourcing to China for the eyebolts will be ideal, and it will probably end up around $1.25/pc. after freight.

    Shall I send out another round of quotes? I don't really want to be the one handling the up-front costs on this.

  75. #175
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    Here's the other question I have.

    Would the "Chinese Finger Trap" method work with 2mm 12-strand? Or is it too wide, internally, to work with something like a 2mm section of welding rod?
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  76. #176
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    Wouldn't these poly spokes result in a wheel that moved considerably more under high side loads?

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  77. #177
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    Yes. There is a bit of viscoelastic stretch that recovers on the order of hours to minutes. It's useful if you have a spoke slightly too short.

  78. #178
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    It will still work.
    Let me point out that the surface finish on those ti welding rods I got from eBay were perfect for the finger trap method. Really grippy. It would even hold on without glue at the end.

  79. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Wouldn't these poly spokes result in a wheel that moved considerably more under high side loads?

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    You should read up on the materials in question.
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  80. #180
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    Got bored this evening before dinner and did some basic math. I calculated the breaking load per square millimeter (which isn't really a thing with a braided rope) of material. One of the more interesting things is that the breaking strength of these materials seems to go down, on a breaking strength vs. cross sectional area, as they increase in diameter. More air space? Not sure.

    All of the data were pulled from manufacturers' websites. One important caveat related to error. There are one or two companies that used daN instead of kgf. 1 daN = 1.019 kgf, so, call it 2%. Teufelberger listed in in daN. So, if you really care, knock 2% off those to get kgf breaking loads.

    The theoretical, non-existent products are based 1.5 and 2.0mm theoretical DM20 material using the highest and lowest calculated values for Sky International's English Braids Dynastay (DM20) products. Meaning, I took the 1.5 and 2.0mm diameters, cut it in half (radius), squared that value, multiplied it by pi, then multiplied it by the highest and lowest calculated breaking loads. It would be great if they actually existed, but, at this point in time, Gideon at Sky International confirms the smallest diameter they sell is 3mm.

    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-line-assessment.jpg
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  81. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Wouldn't these poly spokes result in a wheel that moved considerably more under high side loads?

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    I was thinking the same as I was reading through the thread.
    I understand that the "spoke" will be under high tension which should prevent it, but it's hard to compare a solid metal spoke to a piece of "rope" in my mind's eye.

    I'd have to see a rope that has virtually no stretch capability to begin to even consider the two as similar.

  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by robbnj View Post
    I was thinking the same as I was reading through the thread.
    I understand that the "spoke" will be under high tension which should prevent it, but it's hard to compare a solid metal spoke to a piece of "rope" in my mind's eye.

    I'd have to see a rope that has virtually no stretch capability to begin to even consider the two as similar.
    High tension has very little to do with lateral "flex" in a wheel, regardless of whether the spoke is metal or polymer.
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  83. #183
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    Armare's 1.5mm sk99 is rated at 450kg :-O

  84. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    Armare's 1.5mm sk99 is rated at 450kg :-O
    Did they ever provide you with specs on the DM20 you bought?


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  85. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    High tension has very little to do with lateral "flex" in a wheel, regardless of whether the spoke is metal or polymer.
    I'm likely using incorrect terminology, but are you saying if I loosen all my spokes by a fair amount, the outer rim will continue to run true relative to the hub, even with a strong side load presented?
    (and the hub will also remain true to the center of the periphery of the rim under load?)

    It's oversimplifying, but I think of a steering wheel having flexible spokes. Press hard against the wheel rim at 3 and 9 o'clock, and it will move toward the dash while the hub remains in the same place. The less tension on those spokes, the more the rim can move.

    I thought it was the tension on the spokes that kept it all centered and true (and why I paid my LBS to properly tension the spokes to true my wheels).

  86. #186
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    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?

    Quote Originally Posted by robbnj View Post
    I'm likely using incorrect terminology, but are you saying if I loosen all my spokes by a fair amount, the outer rim will continue to run true relative to the hub, even with a strong side load presented?
    (and the hub will also remain true to the center of the periphery of the rim under load?)

    It's oversimplifying, but I think of a steering wheel having flexible spokes. Press hard against the wheel rim at 3 and 9 o'clock, and it will move toward the dash while the hub remains in the same place. The less tension on those spokes, the more the rim can move.

    I thought it was the tension on the spokes that kept it all centered and true (and why I paid my LBS to properly tension the spokes to true my wheels).
    Id ask you how/if a spoke made from flexible steel wire and one made from a piece of polymer rope are functionally different. If you press on the rim, in this scenario, the spokes would stretch. If a DM20 spoke has no appreciable difference in stretch under load, compared to a CX-Ray, why would it build a more laterally flexible wheel?

    Also:

    https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html


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  87. #187
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    ^I gotta stop reading this thread. researching what is being posted here on deflection led me down a path where I remembered I used to race hard on spinery rex-x and did not die nor break any bones or bleed out, and that was sheer luck. I raced for 16 months on Rev-X and only cracked the carbon arch on the rim, never the spokes themselves. so then I see all the past rev-x career ending injuries....pictures...stories...oh man ....
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  88. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    ^I gotta stop reading this thread. researching what is being posted here on deflection led me down a path where I remembered I used to race hard on spinery rex-x and did not die nor break any bones or bleed out, and that was sheer luck. I raced for 16 months on Rev-X and only cracked the carbon arch on the rim, never the spokes themselves. so then I see all the past rev-x career ending injuries....pictures...stories...oh man ....
    I was racing on the road a bit after the height of the Rev-X boom, but I found a picture of me next to a due on them while looking through some old pictures.

    I'd hope that any remaining, intact copies are reserved for wall or shop art at this point.
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  89. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Id ask you how/if a spoke made from flexible steel wire and one made from a piece of polymer rope are functionally different. If you press on the rim, in this scenario, the spokes would stretch. If a DM20 spoke has no appreciable difference in stretch under load, compared to a CX-Ray, why would it build a more laterally flexible wheel?

    Also:

    https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html


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    You picked a bad example. CX-Rays are bladed so shape could be tuned to account for lateral flex. Are they, no idea. Could they, absolutely.

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  90. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    You picked a bad example. CX-Rays are bladed so shape could be tuned to account for lateral flex. Are they, no idea. Could they, absolutely.

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    I might be wrong, but the cross sectional area of a CX-Ray is the same as a "normal" double butted 2.0-1.5-2.0mm spoke. Per Sapim and other manufacturers, their bladed spokes are a Laser with an extra forging step to ovalize the spoke. I believe Sapim makes claims about enhanced durability due to this extra forging step, but have never seen anyone able to verify that.

    And, I believe that cross sectional area is really the only thing that matters (given the same material), in terms of a spoke's individual contribution to wheel stiffness. Basically, a 2mm straight gauge spoke wheel, given the same hub and rim, will always be "stiffer" than a similar wheel built with double butted spokes.
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  91. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I might be wrong, but the cross sectional area of a CX-Ray is the same as a "normal" double butted 2.0-1.5-2.0mm spoke. Per Sapim and other manufacturers, their bladed spokes are a Laser with an extra forging step to ovalize the spoke. I believe Sapim makes claims about enhanced durability due to this extra forging step, but have never seen anyone able to verify that.

    And, I believe that cross sectional area is really the only thing that matters (given the same material), in terms of a spoke's individual contribution to wheel stiffness. Basically, a 2mm straight gauge spoke wheel, given the same hub and rim, will always be "stiffer" than a similar wheel built with double butted spokes.
    Cross section matter yes. However, the way it is forged, the final shape and other factors can all influence its resistance to deformation in a given direction.

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  92. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Cross section matter yes. However, the way it is forged, the final shape and other factors can all influence its resistance to deformation in a given direction.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Ive never seen anyone a) claim a bladed spoke produces a laterally stiffer wheel than its parent spoke and b) never seen test results that would back that up. If that data existed, that would be good to have. Mostly to justify my own expenditures.

    Personally, I only use them to help me, amateur wheelbuilder, control/prevent spoke wind up.


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  93. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Ive never seen anyone a) claim a bladed spoke produces a laterally stiffer wheel than its parent spoke and b) never seen test results that would back that up. If that data existed, that would be good to have. Mostly to justify my own expenditures.

    Personally, I only use them to help me, amateur wheelbuilder, control/prevent spoke wind up.


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    It was just a bad example due to the potential variables they added versus a non-bladed spoke.

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  94. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    It was just a bad example due to the potential variables they added versus a non-bladed spoke.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    True.




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  95. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Did they ever provide you with specs on the DM20 you bought?


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    Yes. 238 daN spliced break load for the 1.25
    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-screenshot_20181205-124524__01.jpg

  96. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Id ask you how/if a spoke made from flexible steel wire and one made from a piece of polymer rope are functionally different. If you press on the rim, in this scenario, the spokes would stretch. If a DM20 spoke has no appreciable difference in stretch under load, compared to a CX-Ray, why would it build a more laterally flexible wheel?

    Also:

    https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html

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    From what I know of "rope", it is braided and generally will have more "stretchability" than the same material made as a solid strand of the same or even smaller thickness (of course, until it reaches maximum stretch).

    I understand that if the UHMWPE rope-spoke is tensioned the same as a metal spoke, the whole assembly will act just like a common bike wheel.

    Where my train of understanding derails is your statement that tension has little to do with the lateral flex of the rim with relation to it running true to the hub.
    I'm asking that if tension has little to do with it (lateral flex), does it mean little or no lateral flex will occur even if tension is reduced on all spokes in a traditional setup?


    And a question that's more on-topic: If the rope has to be tensioned to match a metal spoke's tension, why not use a solid strand of the UHMWPE instead of rope?
    (or was it an issue of how to connect a solid strand to the rim and hub?)

  97. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Ive never seen anyone a) claim a bladed spoke produces a laterally stiffer wheel than its parent spoke and b) never seen test results that would back that up. If that data existed, that would be good to have. Mostly to justify my own expenditures.

    Personally, I only use them to help me, amateur wheelbuilder, control/prevent spoke wind up.


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    I've been flexing my rear rim under hard cornering forces into my chain stay and my bike shop has had to replace spokes and true my wheel a handful of times.
    I have the flat Sapim spokes on a rear heavy duty Nobl CF wheel. The spokes are all oriented so that they point forward and back.
    The bike shop mechanic told me "the sapims are a good choice for a road bike as they are more aero. However you would have more lateral side to side strength with a round spoke, and the way you ride, you need it. "
    I think it's pretty obvious that with the flat side facing out, that spoke is going to move more in that plane.
    Now maybe Poly spokes stretch more, yet pop back, and if you can spare the clearance, that's going to work really well? I dunno.
    I'm not sure for an aggressively ridden, enduro 29er, Poly spokes are a good choice. Not sure.
    For my wife's gently ridden 27.5" rig, the Poly spokes seem ideal.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

  98. #198
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    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?

    Quote Originally Posted by robbnj View Post
    From what I know of "rope", it is braided and generally will have more "stretchability" than the same material made as a solid strand of the same or even smaller thickness (of course, until it reaches maximum stretch).

    I understand that if the UHMWPE rope-spoke is tensioned the same as a metal spoke, the whole assembly will act just like a common bike wheel.

    Where my train of understanding derails is your statement that tension has little to do with the lateral flex of the rim with relation to it running true to the hub.
    I'm asking that if tension has little to do with it (lateral flex), does it mean little or no lateral flex will occur even if tension is reduced on all spokes in a traditional setup?


    And a question that's more on-topic: If the rope has to be tensioned to match a metal spoke's tension, why not use a solid strand of the UHMWPE instead of rope?
    (or was it an issue of how to connect a solid strand to the rim and hub?)
    Because you cant tie a knot in a solid strand of UHMWPE.

    And you obviously cant splice it.

    And, regarding your tension question, read the link I posted. Damon Rinard answers your question. He even posts a graph to illustrate exactly what happens with each quarter turn, decreasing tension.


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  99. #199
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    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    I've been flexing my rear rim under hard cornering forces into my chain stay and my bike shop has had to replace spokes and true my wheel a handful of times.
    I have the flat Sapim spokes on a rear heavy duty Nobl CF wheel. The spokes are all oriented so that they point forward and back.
    The bike shop mechanic told me "the sapims are a good choice for a road bike as they are more aero. However you would have more lateral side to side strength with a round spoke, and the way you ride, you need it. "
    I think it's pretty obvious that with the flat side facing out, that spoke is going to move more in that plane.
    Now maybe Poly spokes stretch more, yet pop back, and if you can spare the clearance, that's going to work really well? I dunno.
    I'm not sure for an aggressively ridden, enduro 29er, Poly spokes are a good choice. Not sure.
    For my wife's gently ridden 27.5" rig, the Poly spokes seem ideal.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    If your mechanic uses the words strength there, thats the first sign that he has no clue what hes talking about.

    Id like him to explain how two spokes, with the same cross sectional area, and same material, are going to move differently if they are anchored in the same place at each end. What he said makes no sense and doesnt match up with what materials scientists have known for years.

    Heres a good thread:

    Https://weightweenies.starbike.com/f...c.php?t=125588

    Please read all the way through.

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  100. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    And, regarding your tension question, read the link I posted. Damon Rinard answers your question. He even posts a graph to illustrate exactly what happens with each quarter turn, decreasing tension.

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    I did read it. My takeaway (based on his statement - I am not an engineer) is that a reduction of tension DOES increase lateral flexibility, but the deflection is not significant when dealing with very light lateral loads (25 pounds) as seen on a road bike.

    He only used 25 pounds in order to show deflection occurs, but he was afraid to damage a wheel by using more weight than that.

    I wonder what kind of lateral load a 200lb rider exerts on an MTB wheel when cornering hard at a reasonable speed? I'd have to guess it's more than 25 pounds? My bike weights about 26 pounds. I would think that just standing it at a 45 degree angle would put about 6 pounds lateral load on each wheel (25lbs/2 wheels=12.5, 12.5/2 to account for the 45 angle= 6 lbs)

    Perhaps on a road wheel that sees little to no lateral stress spoke tension has little importance, but on an MTB wheel that sees high lateral loads, it would be far more important?
    <making sure I'm not in a road bike discussion as I type this>

    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?-image.jpg

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