I've broken i9s, broken onyx, now what?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    I've broken i9s, broken onyx, now what?

    I didn't think I was a particularly hard rider,(Never pinch flat or rim ding) and certainly not strong enough to fudge hubs, but I cracked the little pawl interface holder thing on an i9 torch, assumed it was a fluke. now I have seemingly fudged an onyx sprag clutch. they are warrantying it.. but bad taste is left. I guess I am looking at other options now for a replacement set. ive ran dt350s on my past two hardtails with no problem at all so currently they may be the best and certainly the most affordable option. but I have read that kings are the other heavy hitter for wheel builds.

    any experience?

  2. #2
    EAT MORE GRIME
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    go the other direction, get crappy low grade shimano , might last forever if you can deal with the low engagement and occasional pawl skip once every 4th ride or so.....
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  3. #3
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    I'd associate I9 with matchy-matchy and annoying sound more than "high quality" or "durable". They have shit bearings, and that's really the basis for hub durability, IMO. Once a bearing starts to go, everything else is going to be under increased strain to take up the slop from bearing wear.

    I'd buy a used 350 over a new I9, at the same cost, any day of the week.
    Death from Below.

  4. #4
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    Project321? 10 year warranty, lightweight, silent option and matchy, matchy (if you want that). They have a heavy duty option for tandems and ebikes --
    slightly fewer POE -- that doesn't cost or weigh any more than the standard version.
    Veni vidi velo!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by veloborealis View Post
    Project321? 10 year warranty, lightweight, silent option and matchy, matchy (if you want that). They have a heavy duty option for tandems and ebikes --
    slightly fewer POE -- that doesn't cost or weigh any more than the standard version.
    also considered that. the magnetic pawls are something that catch my eye also. wonder if the magnets ever wear out?

  6. #6
    EAT MORE GRIME
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    magnets

    with modern magnetic alloys permanent magnets can retain strength for several hundred years. what is interesting is how project321 places the magnets, directly bonded to the pawls. every click is a shock to the magnet

    so, you know there are several factors which reduce permanent magnet strength and one of those is shock or impact. I would not calculate the project321 magnetic field strength to retain 'several hundred years' since each individual pawl is being struck how many millions of times in that hub ? so...yeah, good question ..how long will a project321 magnetic system remain serviceable ? I still am guessing many many years, beyond the lifetime of the rest of the wheel I bet....but that is an interesting question with this system

    seen below...eyah just replace the pawls if they go -dead- on you


    edit: modern alloys are minimally susceptible to shock, so ...Imma say 'not a single worry with project321'
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hbnel5on View Post
    also considered that. the magnetic pawls are something that catch my eye also. wonder if the magnets ever wear out?
    Just replace the pawls and you're good to go. You can choose heavy duty 144 or regular 216 POE pawls

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robik View Post
    Just replace the pawls and you're good to go. You can choose heavy duty 144 or regular 216 POE pawls

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    This^ The magnets are in the pawls.
    Veni vidi velo!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by veloborealis View Post
    This^ The magnets are in the pawls.

    bingo bingo bingo! sounds like we'll give them a whirl. 214 quiet version

  10. #10
    Hitching a ride
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    I'm the only one who is going to say, Take the Onyx warranty and keep riding? It was probably a fluke.

  11. #11
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    Hadley Racing. Probably one of the most underrated hubs on the market.
    EXODUX Jeff

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    Hadley Racing. Probably one of the most underrated hubs on the market.
    I second this. Hadley is overbuilt stuff....
    "This is a male-dominated forum... there will be lots of Testosterone sword-shaming here" ~ Kenfucius

  13. #13
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    ^^Third... and I got flamed for suggesting that Hadleys are more bulletproof for DH than Hopes in a recent thread in this section (Hopes have the absolute WORST durability of them all - buddy blew his out 2 days ago and had to walk 10 miles out). Not a lot of us old school DH'rs left to remember I guess; ignorance is bliss.

    Have FUN!

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  14. #14
    mtbpete
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    The DT Swiss and Chris King Ratchet systems are extremely reliable.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    I'm the only one who is going to say, Take the Onyx warranty and keep riding? It was probably a fluke.

    This.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by changingleaf View Post
    The DT Swiss and Chris King Ratchet systems are extremely reliable.
    ^^^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^^^^

    I have ten year old wheel sets of both and they are still going strong.

    Ridiculously high POE is overrated unless you are a trials rider or some other high level bike handling sicko. Something above 30 can be helpful in snow or climbing tech stuff in my experience. Lower POE gets the job done even on my single speeds for the most part.

    I run 18/36/54 star ratchet DT's and whatever King's are 72 I think... all work fine.
    【ツ】 eDub 【ツ】

  17. #17
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    DT 240's w/ 54t star ratchet

    I have them on all my bikes. Tried and True.

  18. #18
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    If you take a look at how King's drive system works you'll see that it's your best option. 2 major advantages for people that break hubs -
    1 - Full width axle eliminates any tolerance slop between the axle and end caps. Gives the drive a flex free base to operate on.
    2 - The more torque you put on it, the tighter it clamps the drive rings together. And because of how the drive shell interfaces with the drive rings, there aren't any places where force can cause material to deform like what you did to the I9 hub.

    DTs might be reliable for a lot of heavy riders but I'd love to see the outcome of some lab based destructive testing. I bet the king could handle 3x the torque.

  19. #19
    always licking the glass
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    ^^Third... and I got flamed for suggesting that Hadleys are more bulletproof for DH than Hopes in a recent thread in this section (Hopes have the absolute WORST durability of them all - buddy blew his out 2 days ago and had to walk 10 miles out). Not a lot of us old school DH'rs left to remember I guess; ignorance is bliss.

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    Fourth. I love Hadleyís. Just wish they made the 12 speed shimano driver. Maybe one day.
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  20. #20
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    DT Swiss or King FTW.


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  21. #21
    Keep on Rockin...
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    Oh wow this one's easy, like a total no brainer...

    Kings


    Based on personal experience, I don't think dt hubs are in the same league as Kings. In the past 4 years I've had 2 separate rear dt 240s fail on me. I've got 4 rear King hubs and all have been flawless. One I got used, maybe 15 years ago, so its even older, is on my main trail bike and still working perfectly.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mthopton View Post
    DT Swiss or King FTW.


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    Both of those hubs are fairly reliable (I'm currently on my third set of DT's with no total failures but have chipped some teeth off the drive rings on occasion) but neither are in the same league with Hadley from an overall build stoutness/engineering standpoint. The one piece axles and flanges are larger and stronger on Hadleys. They are designed specifically for DH racing and they do not sacrifice durability for weight savings. Here's a good overview article: https://www.ridingfeelsgood.com/hub-...alth-and-hope/

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    If you take a look at how King's drive system works you'll see that it's your best option. 2 major advantages for people that break hubs -
    1 - Full width axle eliminates any tolerance slop between the axle and end caps. Gives the drive a flex free base to operate on.
    2 - The more torque you put on it, the tighter it clamps the drive rings together. And because of how the drive shell interfaces with the drive rings, there aren't any places where force can cause material to deform like what you did to the I9 hub.

    DTs might be reliable for a lot of heavy riders but I'd love to see the outcome of some lab based destructive testing. I bet the king could handle 3x the torque.
    DT is a good low-cost option, simple, strong, but there are some issues with applying power if it's not engaged all the way or if there's some flex going on. This is ultra-rare, but it does happen and I have stripped-out lower-teeth DT ratchets. The lower-tooth-count ratchets are the strongest of all, with the most material behind each ratchet, as you go to the higher counts, you increase more possibilities for slipping/stripping.

    CK is the same basic idea, but instead of being aligned perpendicular to the axle, it's parallel and at an angle, which creates a "constant engagement" situation. It's absolutely superior to the DT implementation and better for high torque situations. Usually not needed, but it's out there.

    Stuff like I9 isn't on the same planet as these IMO. They get decent engagement, etc., but are not the same kind of high-torque designs like DT and CK.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  24. #24
    JB
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    This.
    x3 This is really easy man. You're making a problem where isn't one.

    Onyx sprag clutch is the most robust design on the market. Just chalk it up to bad luck, and get the replacement built, and keep riding.

  25. #25
    Combat Wombat
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    What failed with the sprag clutch on your Onyx hub?

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianU View Post
    What failed with the sprag clutch on your Onyx hub?
    im not exactly sure. but I can pedal and the whole cassette and freewheel will move. will know more when I get the replacement parts.

  27. #27
    Freezer
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    I'll chime in on the Project 321 hubs. I've had two wheelsets with Project 321 hubs, and while the machining is beautiful and the new magnetic pawls are very quiet, I had three separate pawl failures and will not buy the hubs again. In two of the failures one of the magnets detached from the pawl and wreaked havoc on the drive ring and other pawls. The customer service at Project 321 was great, and in both of those cases they sent me new pawls and drive rings free of charge, but in my mind that doesn't compensate for what I believe is either a flawed design or execution. It's too bad because when they work, they're really nice to ride, but when they start skipping and popping under torque it's very frustrating.

    I'm in the market for a new wheelset now and I'm deciding between Onyx Vesper for the silence and DT Swiss 240 for the low weight and bombproof ratchet design. Quiet, Light, High Engagement; pick two!

  28. #28
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    P321 is in absolutely no way a durability-focused hub. It has weird magnets that detach, oil seals to leak, obscenely high poe/ease of pawl jamming.

    Cool hubs, but they're out of the scope of threads like this.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Oh wow this one's easy, like a total no brainer...

    Kings


    Based on personal experience, I don't think dt hubs are in the same league as Kings. In the past 4 years I've had 2 separate rear dt 240s fail on me. I've got 4 rear King hubs and all have been flawless. One I got used, maybe 15 years ago, so its even older, is on my main trail bike and still working perfectly.
    Does your main trail bike have 135 mm QR rear hub? What bike do you still use from 15 years ago?
    I Pity The Fool That Can't Ride A Bike Without A Dropper!!

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom tom View Post
    Does your main trail bike have 135 mm QR rear hub? What bike do you still use from 15 years ago?
    Nope. Knolly 2017 with a 142. The King 135 was easily converted to a 142 with an axle swap. Two of my King hubs were originally 135 that now live on as 142.

    Prior to that Knolly it was on a SC Tallboy LT with a 142. Prior to that I can't recall, a HD3 I think.

    Before that maybe a Heckler and/or Bullit. A C'dale Prophet was also somewhere in the mix.

    To add, I do know that hub lived on the Bullit at one point and served as my 'mini-DH' rig. Point is its been through a lot. My last ride on it this past week was a 5 hour stint involving tons of techy, steep, ratchety type climbing. I go through quite a few shocks, wheels, and frames, but I can't kill a King hub. Can't believe it but the hub will not die.

  31. #31
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    Dt Swiss 180/240/350 with 18t ratchets, overall for durability/longevity. They last a long time even without manintenance. There is always a fluke here and there on peoples experience but for overall for durability canít beet em. Have ridden these hubs since mid 90ís, and tried many others including king, Hadley, Shimano, hope ect. None of them held up here in the PNW like dt Swiss stuff.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by yamaha267 View Post
    Dt Swiss 180/240/350 with 18t ratchets, overall for durability/longevity. They last a long time even without manintenance. There is always a fluke here and there on peoples experience but for overall for durability canít beet em. Have ridden these hubs since mid 90ís, and tried many others including king, Hadley, Shimano, hope ect. None of them held up here in the PNW like dt Swiss stuff.
    you do "any" hub maintenance? Kings & Hadley hold up just fine here in the PNW
    breezy shade

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hbnel5on View Post
    im not exactly sure. but I can pedal and the whole cassette and freewheel will move. will know more when I get the replacement parts.
    Did you have the all steel freehub body and driver, or the one with an aluminum body and steel sleeve on the driver? This is one thing they had some problems with, although I think they have improved it since initial release. It was a way to get weight down, but obviously at the cost of ultimate strength. I went with Onyx originally for strength and I have had no failures over two sets with both drive types for a few years now. And I really enjoy the ride feel they give plus the silence. If you already have a set, I would give the warranty a chance before spending more money with no guarantee of improving your situation.

    As others have mentioned, Kings are also a top choice for durability, and were at the top of my list before I tried Onyx. I maintain some old King hubs for friends, they just keep buzzing along with regular service seemingly forever.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hbnel5on View Post
    im not exactly sure. but I can pedal and the whole cassette and freewheel will move. will know more when I get the replacement parts.
    That's very strange. Onyx are some of the most durable hubs around. But, failures can happen to anything, hence, the warranty. I have thousands of miles of hard ratchet-type riding on mine and they are still perfect. Speaking of which, I should probably service them at some point.

    DT have also been solid for me with the 36t engagement. And they are fairly inexpensive and damn simple to replace the star ratchet if you need to at any point.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    Did you have the all steel freehub body and driver, or the one with an aluminum body and steel sleeve on the driver? This is one thing they had some problems with, although I think they have improved it since initial release. It was a way to get weight down, but obviously at the cost of ultimate strength. I went with Onyx originally for strength and I have had no failures over two sets with both drive types for a few years now. And I really enjoy the ride feel they give plus the silence. If you already have a set, I would give the warranty a chance before spending more money with no guarantee of improving your situation.
    I think you hit the nail on the head... here's info on Onyx' new hub:

    "A complete redesign of the freehub and drive mechanism account for most of the weight savings. A smaller set of grouped sprags interface with a narrower steel contact patch on the drive axle. The reduction in the amount of stainless steel, resulted in significant weight savings. The freehub itself no longer rests on a steel axle, but utilizes a keyed interface. Once again, less steel means more weight savings."

    Basically what I said above - smaller and lighter is not so good for reliability. Hadleys have basically fallen off the map because today's weight weenies don't want their heavy hubs. And no, I haven't heard of any gen 1 Onyx hubs breaking down, like, ever so... Get one of those in a warranty replacement if possible!

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

  36. #36
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    I have stripped steel drive rings out of the high end aluminum hubshells. i have exploded the sprag clutch retainers on the high end sprag clutch type. i am starting to come to the conclusion that CKs splined drive ring to hubshell interface, at least theoritically, is the most robust. i don't own a set yet, but i am tired of pushing out in a catastrophic hub failure, and absolutely tire of rebuilding rear wheels.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc_worm View Post
    I have stripped steel drive rings out of the high end aluminum hubshells. i have exploded the sprag clutch retainers on the high end sprag clutch type. i am starting to come to the conclusion that CKs splined drive ring to hubshell interface, at least theoritically, is the most robust. i don't own a set yet, but i am tired of pushing out in a catastrophic hub failure, and absolutely tire of rebuilding rear wheels.

    Without knowing the fine details of which hubs and specifically how these failures are happening, I'd venture a guess that you are a <1%er WRT hub durability.

    Point simply being that there will always be those that kill hubs in one way or the other.

    I rarely have hub problems. The last one I can remember was ~10 years ago, when my King rear hub would come loose/develop side-to-side slop every ride. Not catastrophic by any stretch, but annoying AF and as good a reason as any to ditch them.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Without knowing the fine details of which hubs and specifically how these failures are happening, I'd venture a guess that you are a <1%er WRT hub durability.
    completely fair, and i am not attempting to be a consumer terrorist, so i left the manufacturers in question out. their response and CS has all been outstanding....but i am leaning more and more in the direction that the best warranty and customer svc is the one you never have to use.

    for the pawl driven types, to my knowledge, all comers thread a steel drive ring into an aluminum hub shell. repeated shock on the system (i.e. accelerating on flat or inclined ROUGH surfaces) acts as a impact wrench as the suspension cycles, the rear wheel loses traction and regains traction when rounding, driving the steel ring deeper and deeper into the aluminum hub shell. the threads on the steel ring have a higher modulus of elasticity than the aluminum threads in the hubshell, causing them AU to bear all the load.

    for the sprag driven type, to my knowledge there is only manufacturer in the mountain bike game. the sprags and hubshell were just fine. the retainer/cage that aligns the sprags so that they engage is what failed.

    the drive ring on CKs is splined. any part ivolved in linear torque transmission on an auto is also spline...especially when mixing different alloys.

    maybe i am a 1%er, but we exist.

  39. #39
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    FWIW, I'd go with Kings. I have several (8+) sets. My oldest set turned 21 (circa '98) this year, wow. My set up is Kings with a DH thru axle and steel, tandem freehub. They are super easy to maintain and I rarely have any failures.

    Before Kings, my freehub would fail about every 6 weeks. I do run a DT350 on my fatbikes rear. Its failed twice in 2 years which is not bad. Prior to the DT350 I went through 3 Hope fatbike hubs; they would not last more than a few months.

    Kings are a little more than other options. However, my riding times/opportunities are short. And I hate missing a ride or weekend of rides due to a mechanical.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom tom View Post
    Does your main trail bike have 135 mm QR rear hub? What bike do you still use from 15 years ago?
    2005 Kona Dawg with the same King hubs for 14 years now. 135/10mm TA rear and 110/20mm TA up front. thousands of miles, beaten hard the whole time, never an issue...


  41. #41
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    Replace bearings after a few thousand miles. I donít even clean or grease the prawls like dt swiss recommends. My Hadleyís bearings went bad after a season on my turner DHR racing the ski bowl/willamette pass DH race series. Went with dt Swiss 340ís (now discontinued) the next season and they have are still goi g to this day.

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