HOPE HUBS Pro 2 Evo/Pro 4 BOOST IS NOT BOOST!- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    HOPE HUBS Pro 2 Evo/Pro 4 BOOST IS NOT BOOST!

    So the Hope 110 front boost hubs are not really taking advantage of boost spacing.

    The offset of the flanges has only increased by 5mm on the front hub.
    Instead of the 10mm that boost offers. They have put half of that extra offset outside of the flanges??

    Why. And am I missing something here.
    I got a Sun ringle SRC and Hope pro 2 boost front hub. But went with the SRC as the flanges where using all of the extra 10mm boost gives you.

    Disappointed in hope as even there new Pro 4 hubs have the same spacing.

    Edit: Only applies to front hub.
    Last edited by yamaha46; 01-09-2016 at 12:43 PM.

  2. #2
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    Guessing they do something similar to their 150/157 rears and use the extra space to get DS/NDS spoke tension closer?

  3. #3
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    Ok I see your point.
    That could be the reasoning for only using half of the 10mm on the front.

    I went with the Boost Sun ringle for my front wheel build as it had larger flanges and the wider spacing (58/60 29.3/40.2). The hope looked odd with the extra space to the brake disc.
    If using an offset rim then a wider spaced front would be better though.

    HOPE HUBS Pro 2 Evo/Pro 4 BOOST IS NOT BOOST!-wpid-pro-2-evo-front-rear-boost-comparisons.jpg

    The pro 4 hubs coming out shortly have the same boost spacing but have increased the pcd from 56/54 to 57/57.
    Last edited by yamaha46; 01-09-2016 at 01:05 PM.

  4. #4
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    The spoke length calculator is showing the same spoke length for both the Sun Ringle SRC and the hope. 298/299 (29er rim).
    So I guess the spoke tension side to side is the same. So that would negate that argument wouldn't it? I'm guessing that equal length spokes would be equal tension.

  5. #5
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    I'm going to guess that this is so they can use the same shell for boost and non boost models. Hope has long had a convertible to anything philosophy for their hubs. While that's nice for customers who want to swap from one fitment to the next, it does leave advantages on the table for some of these newer axle fitments.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by yamaha46 View Post
    The spoke length calculator is showing the same spoke length for both the Sun Ringle SRC and the hope. 298/299 (29er rim).
    So I guess the spoke tension side to side is the same. So that would negate that argument wouldn't it? I'm guessing that equal length spokes would be equal tension.
    No, equal spoke length only mean your spokes have the same length, nothing more.
    Only when you have equal bracing angle you can achieve equal tension.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    I'm going to guess that this is so they can use the same shell for boost and non boost models. Hope has long had a convertible to anything philosophy for their hubs. While that's nice for customers who want to swap from one fitment to the next, it does leave advantages on the table for some of these newer axle fitments.
    They are not equal, they have different flange distances, non boost 53.5mm, boost 58.5mm, they are just using a different approach from Sun, this way you have a more similar spoke bracing angle thus achieving a more side to side equal tension.
    Last edited by Aglo; 01-09-2016 at 04:11 PM.

  8. #8
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    OK so bracing angle has a part to play. Thanks for the info.

    But theres 4.3mm more they can use on the brake disc side, if they used it, that would give a better (more equal) bracing angle.
    So a hybrid of the sun disc side spacing and the hope right side, would give 29.3/33
    That would be a better bracing angle than both of them.

  9. #9
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    Im pretty sure you divide the flange distances to get spoke tension balance (right?).

    So that makes the old hope front have 60% tension on the disc side. Boost is 75%.

    With a 125kgf build, old hopes had 75 kgf on the disc side. Boost has 94kgf. Thats plenty. It was plenty on the old hopes.

    Boost spacing is 110mm with the disc brake located in a certain location, but thats it. Theres no standardization of flange distances. With old 100/135 spacing, flange distance varied a ton between brands.

    I wouldnt hesitate for half a second to buy hope hubs due to spacing. Its a high quality hub. You're not really getting much trail advantage with boost no matter how you look at it.

  10. #10
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    True hope are great quality I had them on my old bike. I think the new pro 4 have larger diameter bearings also. So should be good.
    Just interested in the details.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by yamaha46 View Post
    OK so bracing angle has a part to play. Thanks for the info.

    But theres 4.3mm more they can use on the brake disc side, if they used it, that would give a better (more equal) bracing angle.
    So a hybrid of the sun disc side spacing and the hope right side, would give 29.3/33
    That would be a better bracing angle than both of them.
    There needs to be a certain amount of space on the disc side so the caliper can clear the spokes.

  12. #12
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    Hope should really make a Boost front hub. It's a completely different thing than a regular front hub, with spacers. Odd. I definitely agree with One Pivot, the old system was plenty strong, it's still an improvement.

  13. #13
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    Yes but the sun hub is 4.3mm further out on the disc side. Hence the hybrid 29.3sun/33hope.

  14. #14
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    The Hope hub shell design could have some kind of limitation in terms of fabrication process or in terms of the hub materials stress that made them chose those dimensions.
    You can try ask them and hope, pun intended, that they don't answer you with marketing garbage.
    Sun hubs are heavier, meaning they could have made it slightly wider without compromising the hub's integrity.
    Or they are just both playing with us ...
    Last edited by Aglo; 01-10-2016 at 03:27 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by yamaha46 View Post
    Yes but the sun hub is 4.3mm further out on the disc side. Hence the hybrid 29.3sun/33hope.
    Where are you getting the measurements?

  16. #16
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    From Hope and Sun Ringle.
    Hope is shown above (25/33.5)
    Sun SRC is (29.3/40.2)
    So you can fit 29.3 on the disc side. Pair that with the hope 33.5 and you have a more even bracing angle.

  17. #17
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    I wondered if it was a typo.

    Has anyone had one in hand to measure yet? I've got a set on order and will measure them up this weekend.

  18. #18
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    Ever get a chance to measure the hope hub?

    Quote Originally Posted by dgaddis1 View Post
    I wondered if it was a typo.

    Has anyone had one in hand to measure yet? I've got a set on order and will measure them up this weekend.

  19. #19
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    I use this calculator to get spoke lengths but also to inform me of the spoke tension differences side to side.

    Freespoke

    With an asymmetric 29er rim and the new Hope boost hubs (based on the drawing in this thread I calculated an 8% tension difference side to side for the front hub and a 21% difference in the back.

    Same rim and build specs with an I9 boost set looks to yield a 23% tension difference side to side for the front hub and 22% difference for the rear hubs. This is actually a pretty bad tension delta. I did have difficulty getting the measurements for this hubset online so their is a possibility my input figures are erroneous.

    The best hubs, that I could find measurements for were the Project 321 boost hubs that yield 6% front and 11% rear tension deltas for the same asymmetric rim, spoke count and lacing pattern. These are what I went with.

  20. #20
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    What was the offset on the asym rim in your calculations?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by blubayou View Post
    What was the offset on the asym rim in your calculations?
    Probably an asym rim with 3mm offset and an ERD around 590mm.

  22. #22
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    Can someone clarify if the pro 4 boost rear hub has an inferior tension delta compared to other high end hubs?

  23. #23
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    Couple of things to clarify here.

    1 - No, I didn't measure any of the new Hope Boost hubs yet. I was confused earlier when I posted that I had a set coming in, I had a normal set of Pro 4's coming and a set of Boost I9s.

    2 - Talking about tension delta - this is not the only thing to consider when talking hubs. All of the boost hubs, with either a symmetric or asymmetric rim, will have more balanced spoke tension than the non-Boost versions of the same hub. What you need to keep in mind is spoke bracing angles - bigger angles = a stiffer wheel. How the angles compare from one side of the hub to the other is what gives you your tension delta. For example, American Classics's non-Boost rear hub's NDS flange is a lot further inboard than most other hubs. This means the tension difference is smaller than other hubs - it's 83% of the DS tension. A non-Boost Hope Pro 4 for comparison is only 62% of the DS. So that's good for spoke tension, but, the NDS bracing angle is really crappy on the AC hubs. On the other hand, their large diameter DS flange makes their DS bracing angle higher than most everyone else - it's actually better than Hope's Boost rear hub! So that's good for stiffness. So it's losing stiffness on the NDS, but gaining it on the DS. Overall, is the wheel stiffer? I can't say. I do have plans to build a jig to measure lateral stiffness of wheels I build in the near future though, so give me a few months and I hope to have some data I can share.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by blubayou View Post
    What was the offset on the asym rim in your calculations?
    It was done a couple of months ago and my notes don't include this, but I am pretty sure I used a value of 3mm, now it says 3.5mm on their site. Their site claims an ERD of 579 so this is what I used for my initial calcs. I measured the ERD as 582 the set i received.

    From Nextie:

    [Asymmetric] [NXT29WC38] [All Mountain] 38mm Width Carbon Fiber 29" MTB Rim Clincher Hookless Tubeless Compatible

    Yes all of the boosted hubs that I ran this calculation on created better tension deltas side to side than their non-boosted counterparts. So in that sense they are all capable of potential wheel stiffness gains. The bracing angles of the Project 321 were also the best matched that I found. Not an add for them, but they use I9 internals for their rear hubs, so 120 POE and they sound pretty awesome as well.

    The site I linked to earlier also includes the bracing angles in the output.HOPE HUBS Pro 2 Evo/Pro 4 BOOST IS NOT BOOST!-spokecalc.jpg
    Last edited by oaklandish; 02-10-2016 at 08:36 AM. Reason: clarification

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by oaklandish View Post
    Yes all of the boosted hubs that I ran this calculation on created better tension deltas side to side than their non-boosted counterparts. So in that sense they are all capable of potential wheel stiffness gains.
    Whoa, that's a claim you can't make. Spoke tension is an independent variable from stiffness. That's a long lived myth, that higher tension = stiffer wheel. That's been shown to be false. As long as the tension is high enough the spokes don't go slack in use, the tension doesn't mater.

    Higher overall tension does mean a higher load capacity, and less chance of the spokes going slack in use. When spokes go slack in use the nipples can back off causing the wheel to go out of true, and it causes fatigue on the spokes, which leads to them breaking down at the hub.

    And ^^that^^ is why higher tension is good. Not because it's stiffer.

    The goal of Boost hubs isn't about equalizing spoke tension, it's about improving bracing angles which increases stiffness. It just so happens that the extra room afforded by Boost spacing means you both increase bracing angles and improve tension balance.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgaddis1 View Post
    Whoa, that's a claim you can't make. Spoke tension is an independent variable from stiffness. That's a long lived myth, that higher tension = stiffer wheel. That's been shown to be false. As long as the tension is high enough the spokes don't go slack in use, the tension doesn't mater.

    Higher overall tension does mean a higher load capacity, and less chance of the spokes going slack in use. When spokes go slack in use the nipples can back off causing the wheel to go out of true, and it causes fatigue on the spokes, which leads to them breaking down at the hub.

    And ^^that^^ is why higher tension is good. Not because it's stiffer.

    The goal of Boost hubs isn't about equalizing spoke tension, it's about improving bracing angles which increases stiffness. It just so happens that the extra room afforded by Boost spacing means you both increase bracing angles and improve tension balance.
    Did you even read what you quoted from me?

    "Yes all of the boosted hubs that I ran this calculation on created better tension deltas side to side than their non-boosted counterparts. So in that sense they are all capable of potential wheel stiffness gains."

    I actually think we are in agreement about boost hub bracing angles. But, I did not say they they are stronger or stiffer, just that from what I entered into this spoke calc, they all appeared to show better bracing angles, more even bracing angles and more even spoke tension side to side. These components are pretty undisputed to aid in making a stronger and stiffer wheel. Other factors will go into the wheel that could enhance these hub qualities or work against their potential.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by oaklandish View Post
    Did you even read what you quoted from me?

    "Yes all of the boosted hubs that I ran this calculation on created better tension deltas side to side than their non-boosted counterparts. So in that sense they are all capable of potential wheel stiffness gains."

    I actually think we are in agreement about boost hub bracing angles. But, I did not say they they are stronger or stiffer, just that from what I entered into this spoke calc, they all appeared to show better bracing angles, more even bracing angles and more even spoke tension side to side. These components are pretty undisputed to aid in making a stronger and stiffer wheel. Other factors will go into the wheel that could enhance these hub qualities or work against their potential.
    I think we are in agreement, it was just the way you worded it. I read it as "because the tension delta is improved, they are capable of being stiffer." Tension, and tension delta, on it's own doesn't tell you anything about stiffness, that's all I was pointing out. You can improve tension delta while losing stiffness.

  28. #28
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    I played with that calculator a bit for the first time today (ahem, while at work) and noticed that they have the hope boost front hub in their list, and their measured specs seem to match the specs posted earlier. I have one coming tomorrow so I can confirm, but assume it is right at this point after seeing they got the same measurements.

    Thanks for posting the screenshot of that tool output. I had thrown some preliminary specs in for my front wheel (hope boost front hub, wtb asym i35 rim) and now realize I neglected to enter the negative rim offset value, so I need to run it again and make sure to include it. I will double check all the measurements before actually ordering spokes, obviously

  29. #29
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    You guys playing with all these calculators should try actually building some wheels and measuring the spoke tension and looking at spoke bracing angles, seriously.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold
    You're doing mtbr wrong, you're supposed to get increasingly offended by the implications that you're doing ANYTHING wrong.

  30. #30
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    I'm here checking hub and rim measurements to determine spoke lengths. The parts are ordered for my first build, so the angles will be what they will be! Seriously

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    You guys playing with all these calculators should try actually building some wheels and measuring the spoke tension and looking at spoke bracing angles, seriously.
    Hey I resemble that remark!

    Nothing wrong with geeking out with a spoke calc or internet engineering in our downtime. I wish I could work on my new build, but a broken hand last wednesday has me hanging out on the internets trying to keep my sanity. (maybe not always the best idea)

    Though not a wheel builder by trade, I probably have built about a 100 set of wheels over the past 25 years and could still ride on my first set if it weren't for the rim braking track being bit thin these days. Nuke Proof titanium hubs 32h 3x Wheelsmith db spokes on Open Pro rims and alternating green and red allow nips to accent my 1991 Team 7-11 Merckx...I was such a bike geek in the early nineties that I even wrote a spoke calculator program for my now defunct Casio graphing calculator, based on the equations in Jobst Brandt's book... but thanks for the suggestion

  32. #32
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    Its not about tension balance. Its about getting the right side flange as far over as possible. Thats the real big deal. With normal 135/142 spacing, it'll only go so far over, about ~20mm.

    If you want perfectly even tension balance, just bring over the left flange until tensions are equal. No one does this because it would make for terrible wheels.

    The further left the left flange is, [b]the stiffer the wheel is[/i]. Also, the worse the tension balance is. A good hub will always stuff the right side flange over as far as possible, and then position the left one to get a good balance between spoke tension and stiffness/bracing angle.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    The further left the left flange is, the stiffer the wheel is. Also, the worse the tension balance is.
    It will be laterally stiffer for side loads coming from the left, but less stiff for loads from the right. The more the left flange goes out the lower the spoke tension becomes and so it reduces to zero sooner (due to a right side load) and once this happens it cannot support the rim and it folds. Much the same as stress relieving a wheel by pushing down on the rim, you need to be careful when the left side is underneath because you can easily fold the wheel.

    A good hub will always stuff the right side flange over as far as possible, and then position the left one to get a good balance between spoke tension and stiffness/bracing angle.
    Well said.

  34. #34
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    LOL Man, now I understand why all the calc geeking, totally feel your pain after my ChickV experience end of 2014 into 2015 where for a few months I couldn't work on a bike really that required any hand strength, as I basically lost it all due to the illness attacking my joints.

    FYI, I just built up 150x12 Nukeproof rear to Asym i29, almost absolutely even tension, the Asyms 4.5mm offset really help to bring the bracing angle and spoke tensions much closer to even, even on a 135 Pro2 Hope hub (built up i35 Asym to one of them and an i29 to a Pro4 135), was very impressed what the offset did for the build and stiffness.

    Quote Originally Posted by oaklandish View Post
    Hey I resemble that remark!

    Nothing wrong with geeking out with a spoke calc or internet engineering in our downtime. I wish I could work on my new build, but a broken hand last wednesday has me hanging out on the internets trying to keep my sanity. (maybe not always the best idea)

    Though not a wheel builder by trade, I probably have built about a 100 set of wheels over the past 25 years and could still ride on my first set if it weren't for the rim braking track being bit thin these days. Nuke Proof titanium
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold
    You're doing mtbr wrong, you're supposed to get increasingly offended by the implications that you're doing ANYTHING wrong.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    FYI, I just built up 150x12 Nukeproof rear to Asym i29, almost absolutely even tension, the Asyms 4.5mm offset really help to bring the bracing angle and spoke tensions much closer to even, even on a 135 Pro2 Hope hub (built up i35 Asym to one of them and an i29 to a Pro4 135), was very impressed what the offset did for the build and stiffness.
    Yeah after playing with that particular online spoke calc that I linked to earlier I was able to see that the asym rims pretty much equaled the difference of the wider boost flanges. Together they can potentially offer a fair bit of strength and stiffness increase.

    Now 150x12 is what boost should have been instead of this 148mm silliness. I am not for new standards just for the sake of marketing, and I was actually more irritated by the change to 142x12 than the current du jour 148x12. At least boost offers some structural differences and benefits.

  36. #36
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    Absolutely agree, move to 142 just made it simpler for "special" people to more easily use a 12mm TA, added nothing to the wheels strength, 148 at least does offer some improvements. I ran an SS/Trials hub with 6 cogs for over 6 years to achieve the same goals, worked well.

    Big thing I get from people swallowing up the 148 Boost BS marketing is you have to have new cranks, different chainline, there's no way 150 works with 73BB etc and I have to try to get them to understand that in fact with the current 50-51mm chainline cranks, a 150mm read gives almost perfect chainline, nothing new or fancy needed. Happily for me, since I own Banshees to do that it's a simple drop out swap and if there's enough consumer moaning for 148 from them, it'll still only be a simple $100 drop out swap, not new frame needed for those who already own them.

    Quote Originally Posted by oaklandish View Post
    Now 150x12 is what boost should have been instead of this 148mm silliness. I am not for new standards just for the sake of marketing, and I was actually more irritated by the change to 142x12 than the current du jour 148x12. At least boost offers some structural differences and benefits.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold
    You're doing mtbr wrong, you're supposed to get increasingly offended by the implications that you're doing ANYTHING wrong.

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