• 08-17-2018
    Bogey in PA
    DT Swiss 54T Star Ratchet Upgrade worth it? Version from China?
    Hi all,
    I am currently running DT Swiss Spline 1700 29ers with the 8t stock ratchet...Is it worth it to upgrade to the 54T? Where will I see the most noticeable difference in performance?

    I have also found the non-DT Swiss version from China on ebay--anyone have any experience with these? Is it worth it to just go with these for half the price?

    Thanks,

    DT SWISS 18/54T Star Ratchet Hub Upgrade Kit-2 Star Ratchets+2Springs fr Cycling
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/DT-SWISS-18-54T-Star-Ratchet-Hub-Upgrade-Kit-2-Star-Ratchets-2Springs-fr-Cycling/142760963285?hash=item213d376cd5%3Am%3AmV_ok6KFP6I 2siHW3moLAvg&var=441764995264
  • 08-17-2018
    Black Squirrel
    The 54T ones are known for chipping teeth. I'm sure the china ones are worse. I have 36T ratchets, no complaints.
  • 08-17-2018
    Jayem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Bogey in PA View Post
    Hi all,
    I am currently running DT Swiss Spline 1700 29ers with the 8t stock ratchet...Is it worth it to upgrade to the 54T? Where will I see the most noticeable difference in performance?

    I have also found the non-DT Swiss version from China on ebay--anyone have any experience with these? Is it worth it to just go with these for half the price?

    Thanks,

    DT SWISS 18/54T Star Ratchet Hub Upgrade Kit-2 Star Ratchets+2Springs fr Cycling
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/DT-SWISS-18-54T-Star-Ratchet-Hub-Upgrade-Kit-2-Star-Ratchets-2Springs-fr-Cycling/142760963285?hash=item213d376cd5%3Am%3AmV_ok6KFP6I 2siHW3moLAvg&var=441764995264

    To me, no, not worth it. I run stock 240, 350 and 180 DT Swiss rear hubs. I race XC, DH, Enduro and fatbike. I don't feel I miss anything in tech terrain. For many of us, this just doesn't affect our riding. I do have a few higher engagement hubs, but it makes no difference.
  • 08-18-2018
    edubfromktown
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    To me, no, not worth it. I run stock 240, 350 and 180 DT Swiss rear hubs. I race XC, DH, Enduro and fatbike. I don't feel I miss anything in tech terrain. For many of us, this just doesn't affect our riding. I do have a few higher engagement hubs, but it makes no difference.

    ^^^^^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^^^^^^

    I have stock 18's, 36's and a set of 54's. There is no dramatic difference in POE on any of them. If I had a choice and money to burn, I'd get non-chiney 36's.
  • 08-18-2018
    Vegard
    I can't really tell much difference between the 36 and 54, only reason to go 54 would be if you had the 18.
  • 08-18-2018
    tom tom
    Stay away from the ones from China.............Going from 18 to 36 did not make any difference
  • 08-18-2018
    Mudguard
    What does it do for noise? I'm not after more engagement, my stock 350 is quite loud.
  • 08-18-2018
    Black Squirrel
    36 and 54's are louder than the 18's. Clean and reassemble with new grease to quiet it down.
  • 08-18-2018
    Bogey in PA
    Thanks for the feedback...it looks like I'm not missing that much with my stock 18s so I guess I'll pass.
  • 08-18-2018
    Schulze
    You'd see the performance if you ride a FS and are ratcheting for your life in some boulder field. I have hubs with the 36 and 54 and the 54 are just that little bit extra luxury. 18t is of course rideable but for eighty bucks I have no problem getting the 36.
  • 08-18-2018
    hoolie
    I am a huge fan of Chris King 72 point of engagement hubs. I have owned 2 sets. Got a deal on 18 tooth, DT 350 hubset, no difference on a gear bike. I seek out chunky, technical riding destinations. Alot of stuff I clear, people are sorta amazed. The 18 tooth ratchet is not a problem for me, works as good as my Chris King setup. It is a little weird on false flat uphill sections of fire road at fast pace though, when tired. I would not use 18 tooth on my singlespeed. But for gear bikes, they are fine. I will never pay "upgrade" to 36 tooth star ratchet.
  • 08-18-2018
    One Pivot
    The 36 and 54 pt ratchets are a lot nicer. Maybe not helpful, maybe not beneficial, definitely not "easier" to climb with, but they're absolutely nicer.

    I wouldn't ride 18pt hubs. They are just fine, but this is really my main hobby and a pretty serious passion for me, id like something nicer, and I'll pay.
  • 08-18-2018
    Jayem
    1 Attachment(s)
    How are they nicer?

    Attachment 1212734
  • 08-18-2018
    One Pivot
    I don't find having a bunch of free play in any part nice. You can remove that slop for <$100.
  • 08-19-2018
    gdb85
    I'm pretty sure I can tell the difference, I have 4 350 wheel sets, 3 of them Roval's with the 54t and 1 DT that came stock with the 18t. It was notable/quirky enough to swap to the 54t.
    That being said, the 54t are fairly fine as far as the teeth go, I've never had issues (chipping) yet with the oldest 3yrs now. I can see how the 36t might be a good option for those concerned about chipping/slipping of the finer teeth of the 54t and a little quicker engagement than the 18t.
    I can't be certain but I think if all you had was 18t it probably would not be a big deal but riding 18 & 54 on back to back rides is notable. Justifying the cost for an upgrade is a personal decision.
  • 08-19-2018
    D Bone
    I recently went from my stock 350's 18T ratchet to 24s. I was talking with the DT dudes in Grand Junction about something else, and when I told them I was super happy with my damn near silent 18T hub, but would like "just a little quicker engagement", he immediately recommended that I try the 24T ratchet that comes stock on their Hybrid wheelsets.

    He said "most of the guys here in our shop" have switched to the 24T as it feels super close to the 36T but without the noise, so I thought what the heck and grabbed an authentic 24T ratchet and grease for $40.

    He was dead on right. The 24 is still just as silent as the 18 ('silent' being compared to Hope and I9s) and the extra 5 degrees of engagement is a nice bonus that is easily noticeable....... It's super weird to me that some of you can't feel any difference between 18/36/54??

    ^ That being said, I don't *need* a high engagement hub to clean any tech that my skill level allows me to clean..... if I fail, it's not because of the hub's engagement, it's because I ran out of talent.

    The silence of the DT hub while descending is simply awesome and I can't believe that I put up with the "baseball card in the spokes when I was 10 years old" sound for as along as I did...... Price for trying to be one of the kool kids I guess.
  • 08-19-2018
    Bogey in PA
    wow, thanks for all the great feedback....surprised at how mixed the answers are. So maybe taking a shot at 36's maybe worth it? It would be nice to remove some of that slop and maybe help in climbing? I thought it was really going to be leaning one way or the other.
  • 08-19-2018
    Fairbanks007
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    How are they nicer?

    Attachment 1212734

    Nicer like the way a short throw six speed manual transmission feels compared to a five speed transmission with a longer throw. You just feel *that* much more connected.
  • 08-19-2018
    One Pivot
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Bogey in PA View Post
    wow, thanks for all the great feedback....surprised at how mixed the answers are. So maybe taking a shot at 36's maybe worth it? It would be nice to remove some of that slop and maybe help in climbing? I thought it was really going to be leaning one way or the other.

    Chances are you won't regret it.
  • 08-19-2018
    Jayem
    The point is, it's subjective. Some of us do just fine climbing technical stuff all day long without 30 billion engagement points. "Nicer" is subjective.
  • 08-19-2018
    scooterman
    I notice a huge difference on POE. 20 degrees is just no good for me. We have a lot of very rocky trails where sections require constant back and forth pedaling to maintain speed on then without pedal strikes. 54T makes a HUGE difference.

    If you don't have chunky rocky stuff it won't really matter.
  • 08-19-2018
    Jayem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by scooterman View Post
    I notice a huge difference on POE. 20 degrees is just no good for me. We have a lot of very rocky trails where sections require constant back and forth pedaling to maintain speed on then without pedal strikes. 54T makes a HUGE difference.

    If you don't have chunky rocky stuff it won't really matter.

    Would be better to say that it's required for you, I bet there are plenty of people riding on the stuff you are with 20POE or whatever. It's not about whether you have chunky stuff or not. It's about what you like, that's it.
  • 08-19-2018
    One Pivot
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    The point is, it's subjective. Some of us do just fine climbing technical stuff all day long without 30 billion engagement points. "Nicer" is subjective.

    Oh absolutely! I was trying to emphasize a subjective point of view.

    POE conversations get wacky. Nothing wrong with just saying you like the way it feels, or don't mind either way.

    I rode 16pt when I started, and those shitty old cam plate laserdisks that were probably the sloppiest hubs ever made. You learn to time the slop, and it works fine.

    I just like wheel stuff. I want to unlace my hopes for some WI's so badly. :lol:
  • 08-19-2018
    OwenM
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    I don't find having a bunch of free play in any part nice. You can remove that slop for <$100.

    A lot of it, anyway. I'd like to go even higher POE, but am pretty much enamored with DT's simplicity, durability and ease of maintenance. Doesn't keep me from casting eyes at Onyx hubs, but also doesn't matter enough to me to ignore the cost, or step out of my little DT box(which I don't feel is a bad place to be) and take a chance on something new.
    So 54T it is, at least for the time being...
  • 10-01-2019
    CeUnit
    Reviving this as I'm considering this upgrade...

    I've been watching my son ratchet his bike forward while flat pedaling on skinnies, etc and I can't do this on my 18t stock DT Swiss freehub - I'd end up doing a full pedal rotation which makes it slightly harder to keep my balance.

    Check out this video clip for an example, starting at 1m:15s

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8twG...=youtu.be&t=75
  • 10-01-2019
    Arebee
    I rode 2+ years on the stock 18t and recently upgraded to the 54t ratchet. For my type of riding it's easy to notice the difference. My rides are filled with technical climbs which require a lot of back-and-forth between pedaling and not pedaling. I had become used to waiting for engagement before applying force to the cranks. I saw it as a necessary evil to have on a solid hub that wouldn't blow up on me. The 54t ratchet changes my ride where there's no noticeable wait for engagement.

    You are NOT experiencing a full pedal rotation, only 20 degrees, but it sure can feel like a whole rotation when you're trying to maintain your balance like that.
  • 10-01-2019
    scottzg
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CeUnit View Post
    Reviving this as I'm considering this upgrade...

    I've been watching my son ratchet his bike forward while flat pedaling on skinnies, etc and I can't do this on my 18t stock DT Swiss freehub - I'd end up doing a full pedal rotation which makes it slightly harder to keep my balance.

    Check out this video clip for an example, starting at 1m:15s

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8twGTxSek0I&feature=youtu.be&t=75

    Yeahhhh... 18t is kind of annoyingly slow.

    Faster engagement seems to be diminishing returns; 24t feels way faster than 18, and >40 and i can't tell a difference. The 36 and 54t feel about the same to me, and the 36 has a better reputation for durability.



    FWIW, being in a taller gear goes a long way towards hiding slow engagement when ratcheting.
  • 10-01-2019
    Jetta2010
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CeUnit View Post
    Reviving this as I'm considering this upgrade...

    I've been watching my son ratchet his bike forward while flat pedaling on skinnies, etc and I can't do this on my 18t stock DT Swiss freehub - I'd end up doing a full pedal rotation which makes it slightly harder to keep my balance.

    Not sure I understand why you think there is advantage to ratcheting vs just regular pedaling when it comes to riding along a skinny. shrug. for me, ratcheting comes in on rock gardens, technical climbs, and manualing off of ledges. dunno
  • 10-01-2019
    Brad
    The 54T ringset just makes a nicer sound. If you do opt for the nicer sound then make sure you use the supplied springs in the 54T ring service kit. These are stronger than the springs supplied with the 18T and 36T ratchet systems. It is needed to ensure proper tooth engagement. Also use the DT rig drive grease. CK ring drove grease works but you will have to regrease more often. IMO its a worthless waste of money as there is no noticeable improvement in drive.
  • 10-01-2019
    BmanInTheD
    I just don't get how people say it doesn't feel better to have faster engagement. Does it make you a better rider? Probably not. But it sure as HELL feels and sounds better. That's all part of my enjoyment of the sport. And I'd bet most peoples'. My old 18-tooth felt horrible. It's kinda like saying you wouldn't mind it if you pulled your brake lever and had to wait a second (ok, a SPLIT-second) before the calipers moved. People would go apoplectic.
  • 10-02-2019
    spec306
    Want a quiet hub with instant engagement? Go with the Onyx Vesper. I finally just ditched my DT-350 with the 36T ring as I just got fed up with constantly cleaning and re-lubing the star ratchet in an attempt to keep in sort-of quiet.
  • 10-02-2019
    Brad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BmanInTheD View Post
    I just don't get how people say it doesn't feel better to have faster engagement. Does it make you a better rider? Probably not. But it sure as HELL feels and sounds better. That's all part of my enjoyment of the sport. And I'd bet most peoples'. My old 18-tooth felt horrible. It's kinda like saying you wouldn't mind it if you pulled your brake lever and had to wait a second (ok, a SPLIT-second) before the calipers moved. People would go apoplectic.

    Because the diameter of a freehub is so small, the wheel is so big and gearing, the linear difference between 5dgrees 10 degrees and 20degree is not very big hence you don't feel it. If its a thing for you then feel happy with your choice. The science and math don't support your placebo though

    Assuming the diameter of the freehub drive ratchet is 40mm then the distance between engagements is
    7mm (18T)
    3.5mm(36T)

    1.75 mm(54T)

    Biggest gap is 5mm .
    That's the difference your feet will feel. So please spare the condescending tone
  • 10-02-2019
    fmendes
    Now I have a FS with 72 POE and a HT with 15 (!) POE. Although there is some difference, I wouldn't say I can do more stuff on one bike solely because of # POE.
  • 10-02-2019
    Brad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by spec306 View Post
    Want a quiet hub with instant engagement? Go with the Onyx Vesper. I finally just ditched my DT-350 with the 36T ring as I just got fed up with constantly cleaning and re-lubing the star ratchet in an attempt to keep in sort-of quiet.

    why would you want a noisy hub to be silent?
  • 10-02-2019
    BmanInTheD
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    Because the diameter of a freehub is so small, the wheel is so big and gearing, the linear difference between 5dgrees 10 degrees and 20degree is not very big hence you don't feel it. If its a thing for you then feel happy with your choice. The science and math don't support your placebo though

    Assuming the diameter of the freehub drive ratchet is 40mm then the distance between engagements is
    7mm (18T)
    3.5mm(36T)

    1.75 mm(54T)

    Biggest gap is 5mm .
    That's the difference your feet will feel. So please spare the condescending tone

    That works if your feet were attached the diameter of the drive ratchet. But if the diameter in play is say 340-350 mm (like in a crankset), where your feet are, I think maybe your numbers don't work. I didn't major in geometry, but I think your feet would move a lot more than 5mm between ratchets. 340/40=8.5. 8.5x5=42.5 Maybe my math's not exactly right, but I can sure as hell feel the difference in anything close to 42mm of pedal travel.

    Have you ridden an 18-tooth and 54-tooth back-to-back? And you really can't feel a difference? I wasn't being condescending. I'm not even that greatly in tune with all the minutiae of my suspension settings, tire pressure, etc. But I can REALLY feel the difference going from 18 to 54.
  • 10-02-2019
    Brad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BmanInTheD View Post
    That works if your feet were attached the radius of the drive ratchet. But if the radius in play is say 340-350 mm (like in a crankset), where your feet are, I think maybe your numbers don't work. I didn't major in geometry, but I think your feet would move a lot more than 5mm between ratchets. 340/40=8.5. 8.5x5=42.5 Maybe my math's not exactly right, but I can sure as hell feel the difference in anything close to 42mm of pedal travel.

    Radius say 340??? Wow what Crank is this. The distance your feet travel will depend a lot on the gear you are in. But even that is of less consequence because all you sense is that there is either drive or no drive.
  • 10-02-2019
    BmanInTheD
    Edited to say diameter. BFD. Red herring, your assertion is still wrong. According to this guy, it IS important, and the difference in pedal movement (Pedal Lash) in 32 cog/32 tooth on a 170mm crank going from 18-tooth to 54-tooth is about 27mm. Over an inch. I can feel an inch of "no drive vs drive". And so can a lot of others I'd bet. So it's not "my placebo", lol. Now THAT'S a condescending tone. The importance of engagement | Peter Verdone Designs
  • 10-02-2019
    Brad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BmanInTheD View Post
    Edited to say diameter. BFD. Red herring, your assertion is still wrong. According to this guy, it IS important, and the difference in pedal movement (Pedal Lash) in 32 cog/32 tooth on a 170mm crank going from 18-tooth to 54-tooth is about 27mm. Over an inch. I can feel an inch of "no drive vs drive". And so can a lot of others I'd bet. So it's not "my placebo", lol. Now THAT'S a condescending tone. The importance of engagement | Peter Verdone Designs

    Like I said the effect is different depending on the gear you're in. It's still a placebo because your legs and feet don't care whether it's 40mm or 20mm. It's a relatively small range of movement. Suspension feedback is a another reason why Shimano and DT don't make faster engaging hubs. There is no benefit. THE Scott SRAM riders use the 36T engagement because they want a reliable freehub. The analogy to brakes is laughable. Because brakes have free travel. If they didn't they would rub and slow the rider down.
  • 10-02-2019
    BmanInTheD
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    Like I said the effect is different depending on the gear you're in. It's still a placebo because your legs and feet don't care whether it's 40mm or 20mm. It's a relatively small range of movement. Suspension feedback is a another reason why Shimano and DT don't make faster engaging hubs. There is no benefit. THE Scott SRAM riders use the 36T engagement because they want a reliable freehub. The analogy to brakes is laughable. Because brakes have free travel. If they didn't they would rub and slow the rider down.

    Yep, the bigger cog you're in relative to your chainring, the more effect it has, thus the more movement before engagement. And riding smaller gears, in slow terrain, is where having faster engagement is more noticeable (to some of us). The new XTR brags that it has 7* or less engagement. Who gives a crap what Scott rides, and why don't they use 18T if it doesn't matter? Nobody brought up reliability, we're only saying that we like the way they feel better. Again, if you don't, good on ya, but please stop telling me what I can and can't feel.
  • 10-02-2019
    Brad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BmanInTheD View Post
    Yep, the bigger cog you're in relative to your chainring, the more effect it has, thus the more movement before engagement. And riding smaller gears, in slow terrain, is where having faster engagement is more noticeable (to some of us). The new XTR brags that it has 7* or less engagement. Who gives a crap what Scott rides, and why don't they use 18T if it doesn't matter? Nobody brought up reliability, we're only saying that we like the way they feel better. Again, if you don't, good on ya, but please stop telling me what I can and can't feel.

    They ride 36T because that's what the wheelsets ship with.
    Yip Shimano has reduced the engagement because it sells. They also see more freehub replacements now. The only durable high engagement hub is the ChrisKing Iso Disc. CK reduced the engagement for their road hubs because pro riders didn't like the rapid uptake of the prototype hubs hence its called R45 (for 45 points of engagement).

    riding in slow terrain is where many riders don't like the high engagement. you have to time your pedal pressure more considerately since often a lot of pressure is needed on half strokes to avoid pedal strikes. The more immediate the engagement the quicker your leg muscles have to apply power for longer which leads to faster fatigue.
    And lets not forget about pedal feedback with certain suspension designs

    Plenty of reasons why a fast engagement is not desirable. I understand why downhill or enduro style of riding may prefer faster engagement; they're chasing fractions or a second in timed runs that last the duration of a VO2max interval. But its not desirable to most XCO or XCM riders who value efficiency over faster engagement. So stop trying to sell your feelings as the only way
  • 10-03-2019
    scottzg
    You two are adorable together.
  • 10-03-2019
    BmanInTheD
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    They ride 36T because that's what the wheelsets ship with.
    Yip Shimano has reduced the engagement because it sells. They also see more freehub replacements now. The only durable high engagement hub is the ChrisKing Iso Disc. CK reduced the engagement for their road hubs because pro riders didn't like the rapid uptake of the prototype hubs hence its called R45 (for 45 points of engagement).

    riding in slow terrain is where many riders don't like the high engagement. you have to time your pedal pressure more considerately since often a lot of pressure is needed on half strokes to avoid pedal strikes. The more immediate the engagement the quicker your leg muscles have to apply power for longer which leads to faster fatigue.
    And lets not forget about pedal feedback with certain suspension designs

    Plenty of reasons why a fast engagement is not desirable. I understand why downhill or enduro style of riding may prefer faster engagement; they're chasing fractions or a second in timed runs that last the duration of a VO2max interval. But its not desirable to most XCO or XCM riders who value efficiency over faster engagement. So stop trying to sell your feelings as the only way

    Dude, you're arguing with no one. I never said anything about if it's better, who should or shouldn't use it, road riders, durability, blah, blah........I only said that I can feel and a difference and prefer it and that I'm surprised that so many people can't/don't.
  • 10-03-2019
    DunProperly
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    Because the diameter of a freehub is so small, the wheel is so big and gearing, the linear difference between 5dgrees 10 degrees and 20degree is not very big hence you don't feel it. If its a thing for you then feel happy with your choice. The science and math don't support your placebo though

    Assuming the diameter of the freehub drive ratchet is 40mm then the distance between engagements is
    7mm (18T)
    3.5mm(36T)

    1.75 mm(54T)

    Biggest gap is 5mm .
    That's the difference your feet will feel. So please spare the condescending tone

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    They ride 36T because that's what the wheelsets ship with.
    Yip Shimano has reduced the engagement because it sells. They also see more freehub replacements now. The only durable high engagement hub is the ChrisKing Iso Disc. CK reduced the engagement for their road hubs because pro riders didn't like the rapid uptake of the prototype hubs hence its called R45 (for 45 points of engagement).

    riding in slow terrain is where many riders don't like the high engagement. you have to time your pedal pressure more considerately since often a lot of pressure is needed on half strokes to avoid pedal strikes. The more immediate the engagement the quicker your leg muscles have to apply power for longer which leads to faster fatigue.
    And lets not forget about pedal feedback with certain suspension designs

    Plenty of reasons why a fast engagement is not desirable.
    I understand why downhill or enduro style of riding may prefer faster engagement; they're chasing fractions or a second in timed runs that last the duration of a VO2max interval. But its not desirable to most XCO or XCM riders who value efficiency over faster engagement. So stop trying to sell your feelings as the only way

    Dude, you literally just contradicted yourself. First you said the difference is so small that any perceived difference is a placebo, then you followed up with a bunch of reasons why it actually worse (which would indicate a difference).
  • 10-03-2019
    eatdrinkride
    I think Brad doesn't like high engagement hubs. So much so he's willing to go net-battle over it. 36...54? I'm torn.
  • 10-03-2019
    mtnbkrmike
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    I think Brad doesn't like high engagement hubs. So much so he's willing to go net-battle over it. 36...54? I'm torn.

    I went with 36s on my 2 trail bikes based on advice received re durability (relative to the 54s). In the end, I haven't noticed a difference jumping from 18, except that I love the beautiful music coming from them. Guess I like louder hubs. Based on that alone, I would like to try the 54s.

    PS - I had considerable difficulty following some of the trains of thought above. One thing for sure though - that's a lot of passion over star tooth ratchets.
  • 10-03-2019
    noapathy
    Ever since I went to 36+ POE I've gotten faster. Probably due to the hubs. I like the fact that 4.5% more hikers hear me just after I've passed by.
  • 10-04-2019
    BmanInTheD
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    I went with 36s on my 2 trail bikes based on advice received re durability (relative to the 54s). In the end, I haven't noticed a difference jumping from 18, except that I love the beautiful music coming from them. Guess I like louder hubs. Based on that alone, I would like to try the 54s.

    PS - I had considerable difficulty following some of the trains of thought above. One thing for sure though - that's a lot of passion over star tooth ratchets.

    LOL, right? But I'm not really that passionate about them. If you like them, fine. If not, so be it. I just don't like being told what I can and can't feel based on mis-applied math.
  • 10-04-2019
    russinthecascades
    Don't have any experience with 36t, so can't comment. But plenty of experience going from 18t to 54t (DT) or 18t to 72 (Hadley hubs). I upgraded to Hadley's several years ago and felt an immediate improvement in engagement. Last year got a Trek Procal HT that came with 18t. This was my racing bike and when I would stand to launch a sprint I would be way out front on the bike because the rotation was so long in engaging. Replaced the hubs with Hadley and was immediately in the right position on the sprint.

    Next bought a FS with 18t DT Swiss and replaced with 54t - again immediate difference in ratcheting in techie rocks,etc.

    To me there is no debate, I know what I like....
  • 10-04-2019
    BmanInTheD
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by russinthecascades View Post
    Don't have any experience with 36t, so can't comment. But plenty of experience going from 18t to 54t (DT) or 18t to 72 (Hadley hubs). I upgraded to Hadley's several years ago and felt an immediate improvement in engagement. Last year got a Trek Procal HT that came with 18t. This was my racing bike and when I would stand to launch a sprint I would be way out front on the bike because the rotation was so long in engaging. Replaced the hubs with Hadley and was immediately in the right position on the sprint.

    Next bought a FS with 18t DT Swiss and replaced with 54t - again immediate difference in ratcheting in techie rocks,etc.

    To me there is no debate, I know what I like....

    But you do know that this is a placebo and you're not REALLY feeling any difference, right? bwahahahaha
  • 10-04-2019
    eatdrinkride
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BmanInTheD View Post
    But you do know that this is a placebo and you're not REALLY feeling any difference, right? bwahahahaha

    Ratchet-passion is high in this thread. Lol
  • 10-04-2019
    mtnbkrmike
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    Ratchet-passion is high in this thread. Lol

    Next level.
  • 10-04-2019
    eri
    Start with crazy high road ratio...

    53t chainring, 12t cog, one crank revolution gives 53/12 hub revolutions == 4.4 per crank revolution.

    18t freehub has max of 20 degree of play, on average 10 degrees.

    20degrees/4.4 is 4.5 degrees of play at crank, max. Sin of 4.5 * 175mm crank is 13.7mm of vertical motion at the pedal, about 1/2". (Actually you should do 2*sin(angle/2)*cranklength)...

    Now with low mtb ratio of 26 x 47 the tables are turned, ratio of hub to crank revs is now 0.55.

    20degrees/0.55 is 36.4degrees of play. Sin of 36.4 with 175mm crank is 109mm of vertical motion, 4.2inches. Thats pretty noticeable...

    36t freehub cuts above worst case numbers in half..

    With geared bike im mostly spinning so ratchet stays engaged and i dont notice but i care deeply on my ss.
  • 10-04-2019
    eatdrinkride
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eri View Post
    Start with crazy high road ratio...

    53t chainring, 12t cog, one crank revolution gives 53/12 hub revolutions == 4.4 per crank revolution.

    18t freehub has max of 20 degree of play, on average 10 degrees.

    20degrees/4.4 is 4.5 degrees of play at crank, max. Sin of 4.5 * 175mm crank is 13.7mm of vertical motion at the pedal, about 1/2". (Actually you should do 2*sin(angle/2)*cranklength)...

    Now with low mtb ratio of 26 x 47 the tables are turned, ratio of hub to crank revs is now 0.55.

    20degrees/0.55 is 36.4degrees of play. Sin of 36.4 with 175mm crank is 109mm of vertical motion, 4.2inches. Thats pretty noticeable...

    36t freehub cuts above worst case numbers in half..

    With geared bike im mostly spinning so ratchet stays engaged and i dont notice but i care deeply on my ss.

    WTF did you just say? I've had too many beers
  • 10-04-2019
    eri
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    Wtf did you just say? I've had too many beers

    Clearly i have too... Doing arithmetic on the internet.

    Uh, summary: It matters what gear you are in.
  • 10-04-2019
    eatdrinkride
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eri View Post
    Clearly i have too... Doing arithmetic on the internet.

    Uh, summary: It matters what gear you are in.

    ....Another Stella please
  • 10-04-2019
    Brad
    You okes need to ride more talk less so that these marginal gains don't get your knickers tied up in knots. I'm sticking to my 18T till its worn. Even in the 36 x50 on a 16%gradient it's not a problem. The 36T sounds so sweet but $100 buys a lot of music
  • 10-07-2019
    noapathy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    ....Another Stella please

    This is the proper way to ratchet things up. :thumbsup:
  • 11-03-2019
    yonsson
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eri View Post
    Start with crazy high road ratio...

    53t chainring, 12t cog, one crank revolution gives 53/12 hub revolutions == 4.4 per crank revolution.

    18t freehub has max of 20 degree of play, on average 10 degrees.

    20degrees/4.4 is 4.5 degrees of play at crank, max. Sin of 4.5 * 175mm crank is 13.7mm of vertical motion at the pedal, about 1/2". (Actually you should do 2*sin(angle/2)*cranklength)...

    Now with low mtb ratio of 26 x 47 the tables are turned, ratio of hub to crank revs is now 0.55.

    20degrees/0.55 is 36.4degrees of play. Sin of 36.4 with 175mm crank is 109mm of vertical motion, 4.2inches. Thats pretty noticeable...

    36t freehub cuts above worst case numbers in half..

    With geared bike im mostly spinning so ratchet stays engaged and i dont notice but i care deeply on my ss.

    Lazy math says crank radius= 2 x crank arm length x pi
    Then to calculate the play: Crank radius / 360 x POE degrees.
    20 degrees for 18POE (360/18) or x 6.77 degrees for 54POE (360/54) =

    61mm radius play for 18 POE
    20.6mm radius play for 54 POE

    Or even lazier: 54/18= 3, so therefore 3 times as much play for 18POE vs 54 POE.

    And by the way, just ordered a DT Swiss E 1700 rear wheel with 54POE upgrade kit. :D
  • 11-03-2019
    eri
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by yonsson View Post
    Lazy math says crank radius= 2 x crank arm length x pi
    Then to calculate the play: Crank radius / 360 x POE degrees.
    20 degrees for 18POE (360/18) or x 6.77 degrees for 54POE (360/54) =

    61mm radius play for 18 POE
    20.6mm radius play for 54 POE

    Or even lazier: 54/18= 3, so therefore 3 times as much play for 18POE vs 54 POE.

    And by the way, just ordered a DT Swiss E 1700 rear wheel with 54POE upgrade kit. :D

    Thatís correct if ratchet is in the bottom bracket, or ratio is 1:1, but crank sees Hub ratchet via chain so result is modified by current gear ratio.
  • 11-03-2019
    yonsson
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eri View Post
    Thatís correct if ratchet is in the bottom bracket, or ratio is 1:1, but crank sees Hub ratchet via chain so result is modified by current gear ratio.

    Makes sense, thanks!
  • 11-14-2019
    eatdrinkride
    Had my first ride today with the DT 18t. This hub replaced a Stan's Neo 36 Poe. I've been riding hubs with similar poe for a long time so I fully expected to hate 18t.

    I was quite surprised to find I didn't mind the engagement at all today. Admittedly I don't ride as much ratchety stuff as I once did but still I expected it to be a problem. strangely, where I noticed it most was when coasting along and going to pedal again, there was quite a bit of slack to take up before making engagement. That was obvious.

    riding in Phoenix high engagement hubs are hugely popular just due to the nature of the terrain. I'm going to order the 54 tooth and keep the 18 in my pack as a trailside back up if I ever needed. If this hub came with the 36 I wouldn't even bother with the 54.

    I did love how quiet it was though. you can hear the ratchet with the bike in the stand, or riding on asphalt but on the trail it's completely silent under the crunch of the ground beneath my tires.
  • 11-15-2019
    yonsson
    Iíve only been on one ride since swapping my rear wheel, but I could clearly notice a difference in pedal response. It also surprised me how quiet the 54 ratchet is, from what Iíve read itís supposed to be very loud. Perhaps I put too much grease in the ratchet, but I donít think so. At first I got a muffled ratcheting sound so I took it apart, cleaned everything and regreased with only minor amounts of grease. Itís still pretty quiet but with a less muffled sound.
  • 11-15-2019
    Brad
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by yonsson View Post
    Iíve only been on one ride since I swapping my rear wheel, but I could clearly notice a difference in pedal response. It also surprised me how quiet the 54 ratchet is, from what Iíve read itís supposed to be very loud. Perhaps I put too much grease in the ratchet, but I donít think so. At first I got a muffled ratchet so I took it apart, cleaned everything and regreased with only minor amounts. Itís still pretty quiet butt with a less muffled sound.


    Of course you noticed a difference, that's how placebo works.......immediately.
    are you going faster? Probably not
    are you going further? Probably not
    Are you feeling great having spent $100 on a mechanism that the bike hop told you is better? Heck yeah!!
    Go ride and enjoy
  • 11-15-2019
    yonsson
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    Of course you noticed a difference, that's how placebo works.......immediately.
    are you going faster? Probably not
    are you going further? Probably not
    Are you feeling great having spent $100 on a mechanism that the bike hop told you is better? Heck yeah!!
    Go ride and enjoy

    Haha, $100? More like $400 since I bought the E1700 wheel as well.
    I might not get faster by this, that remains to be seen, but anything that feels better is an improvement. MTB is about the experience.
  • 11-15-2019
    One Pivot
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    Of course you noticed a difference, that's how placebo works.......immediately.
    are you going faster? Probably not
    are you going further? Probably not
    Are you feeling great having spent $100 on a mechanism that the bike hop told you is better? Heck yeah!!
    Go ride and enjoy

    You can literally measure the change... It's a real, tangible change.
  • 11-15-2019
    EatsDirt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    Of course you noticed a difference, that's how placebo works.......immediately.
    are you going faster? Probably not
    are you going further? Probably not
    Are you feeling great having spent $100 on a mechanism that the bike hop told you is better? Heck yeah!!
    Go ride and enjoy

    Not only are you wrong because youíre unable to feel a difference, youíre overly concerned and a royal d!ck about it.

    Take your own advice, STFU and go ride.
  • 11-15-2019
    scottzg
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    Of course you noticed a difference, that's how placebo works.......immediately.
    are you going faster? Probably not
    are you going further? Probably not
    Are you feeling great having spent $100 on a mechanism that the bike hop told you is better? Heck yeah!!
    Go ride and enjoy

    I'm just quoting you cuz i wanna be part of the club.
  • 11-15-2019
    eatdrinkride
    It was a pretty Pink Bike-ish type reply.