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Thread: CK, WI, or 321?

  1. #1
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    CK, WI, or 321?

    Looking for wheel recommendations. In the past year Iíve had problems with a couple good wheelsets. Iím a Clyde at 260. I started with LB rims and Onyx boost hubs, 32h laced 2x on my LB AM928. Eventually, the spokes dug into the hub flange so much they would move due to tangential forces and cause creaking. This was my theory at least, and I could silent it with oil at the hub flange and first cross.
    I had my lbs rebuild the wheel using DT240s and DT comp spokes in a 3x. Fast forward a few hundred miles and Iím starting to develop a similar sound. The sound goes away for a few rides if I put a drop of oil at each of the spoke holes on the hub flanges.
    I want to switch back to a 6 bolt hub and do what I can to eliminate this creak. I think I can switch to a 36h hub 3x or 4x even, thatís where the WI hubs come in.
    Or, the 321 Hubs have flanges at an angle where there is a no touch, or light touch between the spoke and the flange, but they only offer a 32h and the reliability is possibly questionable. 321 has a lot of cool stuff with their hubs, but theyíre the new guys on the block.
    And then there is olí trusty CK. Guys who destroy hubs for lunch are dumbfounded they canít kill Kings. Only a 32h so I get worried about spoke noise.
    I should state, Iíve always used black spokes before, and will go with silver spokes this time. I thought about bladed spokes as theyíre less likely to make noise at the closest crossing to the flange, but I think a DT Comp or Sapim Race in 2/1.8/2 is pretty tried and true.
    I *believe* more spokes (and more crossings) will improve tangential stiffness, which would fix my problem of spokes rubbing against each other to create flat spots and digging into the flanges and then moving and creaking. Iím leaning towards the 36h White Industries in the rear and 32h front, thoughts?

  2. #2
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    Any metal spokes that touch at the cross can possibly make noise, regardless of round or flat.

    It sounds like you aren't certain that the noise emanated from the flange on the Onyx.

  3. #3
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    A drop of lube where the spokes cross would be an easy way to check if that's the source of the noise. Black spokes are more prone to this, as it seems you are aware.

    Step 2: lube the flange where the spokes touch then test ride again to see if it quiets the noise.

    Easy way to find the source instead of building new wheels and guessing.
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    Black spokes are more prone to this, as it seems you are aware.

    Evidence?

    I've heard this assertion for years but never seen anything to verify it.

  5. #5
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    It's tough to narrow down a creaky wheel. I would do more testing before determining for sure that it's the hub or spokes.

    When your wheel starts creaking do you stop mid-ride to oil the spokes and flange and then continue your ride to listen for creaks?

    If you are oiling these areas between rides then other changes could be happening that your not accounting for, like a bike washing, temperature change or some other settling.

  6. #6
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    The Onyx setup (2x) had creaks at the first spoke cross AND the flange. The DT setup (3x) only creaks at the hub flange. I havenít taken oil on a ride with me, but I have done day to day rides without washing or disassembling anything and only oiled the first spoke cross and/or hub flange as applicable. The Onyx setup got so bad that even with oil I could make it creak loudly if I stood on it.
    Then I rebuilt the wheel with the DT hubs and new spokes. Worked quietly for a few months and itís starting again. I can quiet it with oil, but I need to re-oil every 2 rides or so (30 miles) to keep it quiet.
    So Iím leaning towards the 321 hub with 32h and a 3x. Or, what I would consider the tried and true 36h White Industries with a 3x or 4x if itís possible with that flange. Both wheels Iím considering silver spokes, likely if not DT Comp than DT Revolution or even the Sapim equivalents.

  7. #7
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    In your situation, I would not even consider DT Revolution spokes. Your 36h idea makes sense but I thought your rims are 32h (and I am not sure today there is a wide selection of 36h rims).

    Have you consulted with a specialized wheel builder?

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    What would be special about the Onyx hub that would make it any noisier than another?

    And wouldn't a hub with wear to the spoke holes tend to be quieter, rather than noisier? I would think that as long as spoke tension is kept up, any 'bedding in,' for lack of a better term, would tend to decrease movement (and creaking). And the aluminum at that spot keeps getting harder, since it's being compressed moreso than actually wearing away.

    ...or is it actually wearing away? I always assumed it was from pressure, but it would make sense if tiny movements of the spoke were actually digging out material, I guess.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus B. View Post
    In your situation, I would not even consider DT Revolution spokes. Your 36h idea makes sense but I thought your rims are 32h (and I am not sure today there is a wide selection of 36h rims).

    Have you consulted with a specialized wheel builder?
    I do have 32h, dropped off the front wheel to replace bearings. While it was there the LBS owner kept eyeing my wheelset and wanted to build me another one and put my wheels on his bike lol. I have been wanting to switch to ISO hubs so Iím considering taking him up on his deal. I have talked to a couple wheel builders online and theyíve recommended 32h 3x in a 2/1.8/2, which is what I already have. To be fair, this whole thing could be a issue of not enough tension. I had not monitored it in the past until noises showed up.
    Quote Originally Posted by phuchmileif View Post
    What would be special about the Onyx hub that would make it any noisier than another?

    And wouldn't a hub with wear to the spoke holes tend to be quieter, rather than noisier? I would think that as long as spoke tension is kept up, any 'bedding in,' for lack of a better term, would tend to decrease movement (and creaking). And the aluminum at that spot keeps getting harder, since it's being compressed moreso than actually wearing away.

    ...or is it actually wearing away? I always assumed it was from pressure, but it would make sense if tiny movements of the spoke were actually digging out material, I guess.
    Nothing special about the first hub, Onyx, besides the thick layer of powdercoat and lower initial tension from LB who built it. After it was making noise regularly, then I had the tension upped to 125 (iirc). Those spokes dug material away from each other for sure. Again, Iím leaning towards the fact that I had low tension on the Onyx build (which had Sapim D Light spokes and 2x) until too much damage was done and on the DT build (with DT Comp and 3x) I may be just a smidge under tension which is starting to cause a creak lately.

    Since Iíve started this thread, Iím leaning towards CK. My Onyx rear hub had a bad driver bearing within 30 days and my DT240 front bearings went out in 6 months. I ride in dry SoCal and admit I do hose my bike off a couple times a month with a gentle spray. So, Iím going after bearings that last forever with regular maintenance. So, that limits me to 32h, but I can look at rims with different offset perhaps to get a stronger overall build.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by farfromovin View Post
    Looking for wheel recommendations. In the past year Iíve had problems with a couple good wheelsets. Iím a Clyde at 260. I started with LB rims and Onyx boost hubs, 32h laced 2x on my LB AM928. Eventually, the spokes dug into the hub flange so much they would move due to tangential forces and cause creaking. This was my theory at least, and I could silent it with oil at the hub flange and first cross.
    I had my lbs rebuild the wheel using DT240s and DT comp spokes in a 3x. Fast forward a few hundred miles and Iím starting to develop a similar sound. The sound goes away for a few rides if I put a drop of oil at each of the spoke holes on the hub flanges.
    I want to switch back to a 6 bolt hub and do what I can to eliminate this creak. I think I can switch to a 36h hub 3x or 4x even, thatís where the WI hubs come in.
    Or, the 321 Hubs have flanges at an angle where there is a no touch, or light touch between the spoke and the flange, but they only offer a 32h and the reliability is possibly questionable. 321 has a lot of cool stuff with their hubs, but theyíre the new guys on the block.
    And then there is olí trusty CK. Guys who destroy hubs for lunch are dumbfounded they canít kill Kings. Only a 32h so I get worried about spoke noise.
    I should state, Iíve always used black spokes before, and will go with silver spokes this time. I thought about bladed spokes as theyíre less likely to make noise at the closest crossing to the flange, but I think a DT Comp or Sapim Race in 2/1.8/2 is pretty tried and true.
    I *believe* more spokes (and more crossings) will improve tangential stiffness, which would fix my problem of spokes rubbing against each other to create flat spots and digging into the flanges and then moving and creaking. Iím leaning towards the 36h White Industries in the rear and 32h front, thoughts?
    If you have not already give Dave a call at [url=http://www.speeddream.com] he actually prefers calls and talking directly with him. He has been considered one of the best for longer than I can remember.

  11. #11
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    Agree with the under tension problem, a sign with an under-stress relieved wheel. I think you should tighten the spokes when they dig into the hub flange. The deformation of the aluminum should harden it locally so it will find a set and stop.

    I also think you should use a spoke with a thicker elbow such as a Sapim Force which is 2.18mm. This will decrease the contact stress on the aluminum flange.

    Going to more cross won't help. Lateral stiffness is what you seek. Heavy and wide carbon rims, lots of spokes.

  12. #12
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    A properly built wheel is key to being noise / trouble free. I know a lot of builders scoff @ tensiometers but since building my last few wheelsets, w/ a quality tensiometer, this has led to trouble free operation. I'd say it would be a good idea to periodically check the tension just to be safe.

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    Thanks for all the inputs. Iím going to have the LBS assemble a LB AM930 wheelset 32h with King hubs and CX rays. A riding friend of mine gave me a Park tension meter so I can keep an eye on the wheelset in the beginning of its life.
    My buddy who builds his own wheels just pushes down on the wheelset on a bench to stress them when building but Iíve seen YouTube videos of people standing on the spokes too, seems extreme.

  14. #14
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    Hub killing clyde checking in: Chris Kings are the only hubs I have never had an issue with. If you go HG get the stainless hub shell. I usually like to keep bike business local, but maybe...just maybe, the issue stems from the person building the wheels? I have my wheels built by someone who has tons of positive feedback, and knows how to build them for big fellas. Having that confidence and paying a little extra in shipping is really worth the peace of mind when riding imho.

    I don't think anyone has ever suggested a 2x build for me that I am aware of, I always just ask for "the strongest wheel you can build".

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    Hub killing clyde checking in: Chris Kings are the only hubs I have never had an issue with. If you go HG get the stainless hub shell. I usually like to keep bike business local, but maybe...just maybe, the issue stems from the person building the wheels? I have my wheels built by someone who has tons of positive feedback, and knows how to build them for big fellas. Having that confidence and paying a little extra in shipping is really worth the peace of mind when riding imho.

    I don't think anyone has ever suggested a 2x build for me that I am aware of, I always just ask for "the strongest wheel you can build".
    You could be right, the first wheelset was from LB which was insistent that 29 x 2x was the best way to go for 29ers. The rebuild was done by a pretty knowledgeable LBS owner, albeit heís on the opposite end of Clyde territory. The new wheelset is gonna be built by a different LBS.

    I was a bit hesitant on the CX Rays but other than being expensive, I havenít seen anyone with anything bad to say about them. The fact they take some of the weight out of the wheel is a huge bonus and if there is spoke on spoke movement, I think having two flat spokes against each other will be a benefit. But, Iíll be asking questions when I pick them up as far as how was the stress relief performed, and whatís the final tension on the 4 sides after tires were mounted. Iím really a pita customer.

  16. #16
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    The only downside to the King drive system is that the drive ring will eventually wear down the teeth on the standard aluminum driver shell, which is expensive to replace. You can prevent that by starting with a steel driver shell, but it's heavier. Other than that, you won't break it.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    You can prevent that by starting with a steel driver shell, but it's heavier. Other than that, you won't break it.
    You honestly think anyone our size needs to give two f#cks about the weight difference in a hub shell? I have regretted almost every light weight bike component I have ever bought, just not meant to handle men of mass.

  18. #18
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    Ok did you look at the CX Sprint?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    The only downside to the King drive system is that the drive ring will eventually wear down the teeth on the standard aluminum driver shell, which is expensive to replace. You can prevent that by starting with a steel driver shell, but it's heavier. Other than that, you won't break it.
    Can you elaborate? I've never seen the ring drive made of anything but hardened steel. Do you mean the helical splines on the drive shell? Even then, that must take a crazy amount of time to wear.

  20. #20
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    CK, WI, or 321?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    You honestly think anyone our size needs to give two f#cks about the weight difference in a hub shell? I have regretted almost every light weight bike component I have ever bought, just not meant to handle men of mass.
    They donít offer an aluminum XD, only steel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Ok did you look at the CX Sprint?
    I saw them after parts were ordered... At this point, I really just got my fingers crossed with any 32 spoke hub. I have been losing some of my Clyde status and hope to reach 225 by years end. Thatís at least mini Clyde right? lol

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Organ View Post
    Can you elaborate? I've never seen the ring drive made of anything but hardened steel. Do you mean the helical splines on the drive shell? Even then, that must take a crazy amount of time to wear.
    Yes, the helical splines on the shell. As it slides against the harder drive ring the teeth of the shell get worn down and a little ridge on the teeth forms that can cause the two to stick together briefly when they disengage. It may start clicking too. It took 4 years for me to wear one out. No big deal, but it's an expensive part. And it requires the king tool to swap the bearings from an old shell to a new one.
    It's still the best mousetrap, bar none.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    You honestly think anyone our size needs to give two f#cks about the weight difference in a hub shell? I have regretted almost every light weight bike component I have ever bought, just not meant to handle men of mass.
    I don't know if you do or you don't. Most people over the years assumed that the steel shell option was to prevent cassette bite. It was really because King knew that the drive ring would wear out an aluminum shell eventually. But people wanted lighter weight...so aluminum became standard (it's also easier on their cutting tools).

  23. #23
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    ^Interesting!

    But you gotta know your audience, the Op weights 260lbs. If he's anything like me, he shits the equivalent of 3 hub shells on a daily basis!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    ^Interesting!

    But you gotta know your audience, the Op weights 260lbs. If he's anything like me, he shits the equivalent of 3 hub shells on a daily basis!
    I havenít had any hub shell or pawl or driver issues on Onyx or DT240. Just a few quickly smoked bearings.

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