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  1. #1
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    Berd spokes.

    Maybe a year ago I became aware of a new technology being used to make bicycle spokes.


    By and large spokes are made from steel these days, primarily because steel makes for such a great blend of weight, cost, and durability. Experimentation with aluminum and composites has happened and will continue to -- that's how the breed improves.


    Spokemakers have, in recent years, embraced straight pull spokes (of steel and aluminum) for reasons of, um, marketing, best I can tell. They haven't been proven to do anything better than j-bend spokes, other than introduce a confounding choice onto an unsuspecting and largely uneducated public. I think the conversation probably went something like this:


    Marketing hack A: "How do we sell more of something without actually improving it?"

    Marketing hack B: "Divide, confuse, and conquer? Oh, plus new colorways!"


    My perspective is that straight pull spokes are a "solution" to a non-existent problem.


    Ahem. Did I digress?!


    I'm writing today about Berd spokes. You can read their shpiel here -- it's the same stuff I read when I first heard about them. The reading isn't particularly compelling, but it's informative enough if you pay attention. Basically, these spokes knock a good chunk of mass off of any wheel when compared with steel spokes, they don't give up any strength or stiffness in so doing, and they add a measure of dampness to a wheel.





    Lighter, stronger, and more comfortable? What's the catch?


    Glad you asked. The catch is in cost per spoke, as well as in increased labor time to build each wheel. Which also adds more cost to each wheel. Basically, a wheelset built with these spokes is expensive relative to any other spoke available.


    Your next question is undoubtedly some variation on "How much?" immediately followed by "Are they worth it?"


    The answers are "quite a bit" and "it depends".


    Let's not get ahead of ourselves...


    My ears perked up when I learned that the source material is Dyneema, which I know and trust from the HMG packs that Jeny and I have used for years. The stuff is incredibly light and unbelievably abrasion resistant. I know there are a lot of other attributes that are important in a pack, but for me those are the big two. After years and years of abusing our HMG packs -- bushwhacking through alder and devils club in AK, grinding and dragging them through dry scrub oak and wet slot canyons in the Colorado Plateau -- and them being dirty but otherwise none the worse for wear, I've come to think of Dyneema as an incredibly impressive material.


    "Sure", you're saying, "for a pack". But, good enough for bicycle spokes?


    Read on.


    It takes a good chunk longer to build a wheel with these spokes. Some of that is in the lacing process, as the loop at the head of the spoke needs to be pulled through the spoke hole in the hub, and this isn't as easy as it sounds. Then you slip a little 'rod' of Dyneema through that loop, pull the spoke tight by hand, then move on to the next one. It isn't complicated -- is actually anything but -- it just takes a little more time than you're used to. Home builders that love the process of building their own wheels will get to spend more time enjoying that process.





    There is additional time required in the tensioning process, because the material these spokes are made from has inherent stretch. Basically you need to bring the wheel up to ~final tension, do some stress relief cycles, tension it again, stress relieve again, tension once more, then hang it up for a few days and let the spokes elongate. You do not finish a wheel built with these spokes in one sitting.





    Come back to it a few days later, get it true/round/dished to spec, *then* balance it out at final tension. The guys at Berd will help you with the nuances of your spoke calc, and they'll also provide numbers appropriate to whichever tensiometer you're using. Expect to take 2+ hours on your first one, then maybe a little less on each subsequent. I can't see how you'll ever get build time equivalent to a steel spoked wheel, nor do I think it's important that that happens.





    I only have hundreds of miles on these spokes, on two different bikes, so the jury is still out on long term durability. Once I have thousands of miles I'll feel more confident in saying what they can and cannot handle as far as abrasion and impact.





    I did take a sharp shears to one, under tension, just to see how it would react, as sort of a crude abrasion test. It took several hacks at the thin section of the spoke to get it to cut, and even then it wasn't like you could cut immediately through the whole thing -- there were several strands that just wouldn't cut completely without several hacks and a lot of effort. In the video above I am not 'lillydipping' with the scissors -- I'm really cutting hard. The result of this crude experiment is confidence inspiring when considering sharp schist or shale plates that get thrown up, or even just incidental contact with the local square-edged sandstone and granite. Just one indicator, but an impressive one.





    The ride is subtly different from anything else I've ridden before. I should clarify that on my first build with these I took an existing wheelset using DT 240s hubs, Derby carbon rims, and DT SuperComp spokes -- a wheelset that I'd ridden over 2k miles already -- and cut out the SuperComps, then relaced with the Berd's. I even re-used the same tires, at the same pressures, such that the only thing that had changed was the spoke material. This single change created a net loss of 110g per wheel. Not a misprint.


    I could call them "damp" but you might get the idea that that means "slow". I could call them "quiet" but you might misconstrue that as "muted". Nothing about the ride is extraordinary relative to a normal steel spoked wheel, it's just a little different. I am princess and the pea when it comes to minutiae like this, and it's possible that what I feel when riding the Berd spokes just won't be noticeable to you. Put differently, there is no discernible difference in overall wheel stiffness in any plane, no change in how the overall package handles what you're throwing at it. They are still stiff, strong wheels -- they just got a lot lighter and now seem to absorb more vibration from the trail.


    I'm not a hard-core numbers guy so I can't say that they make me feel x% fresher at the end of a ride. And I'm not fast so I can't say they make me faster. But I can say that I like the feel -- enough that I'm lacing another set for myself. The absorption of trail vibrations is noticeable enough that, were I still an endurance nerd out chasing sunsets, I'd emphatically be using these for both training and racing.


    I'm building with them for customers effective immediately. Expect to gasp audibly at the price -- $8 per spoke plus extra labor time, on top of hubs, rims, and (probably) shipping.


    Don't hesitate with questions.


  2. #2
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    I've been looking at these for a while now. When they originally came out, before they were really on the market, they were saying that they'd be offering them at CX-Ray/Aerolite prices.

    I saw their recent updates, have seen some of the German brands starting to build wheels with them, etc. Saw the prices, too. Obviously the weight loss was compelling, but the price was hard to swallow.

    Might try building up a single front wheel with them to see how I like them. If all goes well, maybe build up a matching rear.
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    New question here. Threaded connection...how is this attached to threads and what's max tension spec??

    Looks like "special" string...can you say something more on the build peculiarities pls...looks quite a bit thicker than any hub drillings. Some of the photos didn't show up, do these use nip's, if not how is tension controlled??
    video=youtube;][/video]...

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    Why not rear first? I say that simply because I think you'd notice the benefits (both weight and dampness) more there.

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    Cool idea. Looking forward to the price coming down

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    you need better scissors

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    Quote Originally Posted by dundundata View Post
    you need better scissors

    You need better reading comprehension.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    Looks like "special" string...can you say something more on the build peculiarities pls...looks quite a bit thicker than any hub drillings. Some of the photos didn't show up, do these use nip's, if not how is tension controlled??

    Normal nips, although because of how/where you have to hold the spoke to control windup, you more or less need to true/tension with a thru-the-rim spoke wrench.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Why not rear first? I say that simply because I think you'd notice the benefits (both weight and dampness) more there.
    Got a front 240 laying around.

    Although, I also have a 240 laced to a tubular road rim that hasnít touched a CX course in many moons...


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  10. #10
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    Ok I can see the photo now...rigid or ht ride back to back swapping wheels would clear up any questionable "spoke damping" affect, if any.

    The stainless steel-to-Berd connection is where I'm still scratching my head a little. What is max tension? edit- and are they saying only carbon rims for these Berd? Aluminum rims over carbon seem the way to go for a more compliant ride imhe
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  11. #11
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    @mikesee Great write up, tempting to try out on the rear of my ht. Have you built up any wheels using Otsos rims? In particular their LITHIC CARBON 27.5+ RIM?


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  12. #12
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    Say a rear d killed a coupl'a spokes...do you think these could be threaded in there trailside, w/o removing cassette?
    video=youtube;][/video]...

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    I like the light weight. When they are $2 per spoke we can talk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    Say a rear d killed a coupl'a spokes...do you think these could be threaded in there trailside, w/o removing cassette?
    Just looking at the pictures its hit or miss as to which spoke you break. Since cassettes have aluminum spiders and there is some space but if you get one thats inline with the spider you may not be able to.


    If they were $2 a spoke Id have ordered some lol. $8 is insanely steep but looking close at the pics (mike has been discussing with us in another thread) I can see why. Not one part of these is made by readily available equipment. Its all specialized which is why. Probably talking an easy $100k in the tooling to produce these and the time it takes to make each spoke to desired length. My guess would be that a full wheel set of spokes can be rolled and cut faster than it does to just get a set of these cut to length. Then install the ends.

    So I can see the costs, painfully steep but not unjustified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    Say a rear d killed a coupl'a spokes...do you think these could be threaded in there trailside, w/o removing cassette?

    I suppose it's possible if you have some tools with you, but not easy and not quick.

    edit: On second thought, no -- not without removing cassette and maybe rotor, depending.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geraldooka View Post
    @mikesee Great write up, tempting to try out on the rear of my ht. Have you built up any wheels using Otsos rims? In particular their LITHIC CARBON 27.5+ RIM?

    Nope, no Otso's yet.

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    Oh boy, I can't wait to get my wheels relaced with Polylights. @mikesee, you mentioned several stress relief cycles during several days course, which does not align with the building manual that only suggest to stress relief spokes before final pass and to tension the spokes one day later. Did you find Berd's instructions insufficient or decided to play it safe and go along with your wheel building experience?

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    Glow in the dark..

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I suppose it's possible if you have some tools with you, but not easy and not quick.

    edit: On second thought, no -- not without removing cassette and maybe rotor, depending.
    A bigger loop could make for a trailside wheel fix in bfe(loop over top of the flange), so the spoke could tie thru the loop and hold itself in place w/o the little piece. Just need to poke the loop thru and fish it out...they definitely have an interesting look, wonder what colors will be available
    video=youtube;][/video]...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    wonder what colors will be available
    You can have any color as long as it's white. At least for now.

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    Tangentially related, I've used a Fiberfix emergency spoke a couple of times on road bikes. https://www.adventurecycling.org/cyc...iberfix-spoke/
    Do the math.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Rager View Post
    Tangentially related, I've used a Fiberfix emergency spoke a couple of times on road bikes. https://www.adventurecycling.org/cyc...iberfix-spoke/
    I thought of this immediately when I saw the Berd Spoke. Never thought of building a whole wheel with the stuff.

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    There is a huge difference between that repair kit and these spokes, completely different material.

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    How can these build a wheel as stiff as one built with stainless steel?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDee View Post
    How can these build a wheel as stiff as one built with stainless steel?
    they cannot be as stiff

    but it is largely irrelevant, wheel will stay centered, just feel a tad more forgiving
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    they cannot be as stiff

    but it is largely irrelevant, wheel will stay centered, just feel a tad more forgiving
    What about side loads? Would the wheel/rim bend? Seems to fly in the face of boost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDee View Post
    How can these build a wheel as stiff as one built with stainless steel?
    Tension
    It doesn't seem like it should work (in my brain) but if you've ever laced a wheel and felt how loose things are until the spokes are tensioned (and it doesn't take much)

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    Lightweights are some of the stiffest wheels made (and most expensive) and they use a carbon/Kevlar spoke.

    I see no reason these canít be as stiff as a steel spoked wheel.


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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Lightweights are some of the stiffest wheels made (and most expensive) and they use a carbon/Kevlar spoke.

    I see no reason these canít be as stiff as a steel spoked wheel.


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    I can't read German. If they use carbon in their spokes, carbon is stiffer than steel; kevlar not.

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    You realize spoke material means absolutely nothing in that regard right? Its all about the tension compressing the rim and how the loads are spread through the spokes/rim. The only way spokes would effect the wheel build in that way is if they were stretching and contracting during riding. All that matters is that when wheel build is completed the spokes no longer elongate and cause loss of tension on other spokes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDee View Post
    I can't read German. If they use carbon in their spokes, carbon is stiffer than steel; kevlar not.
    Saying that carbon is stiffer than steel is not true. It CAN be stiffer than steel.

    But, weíre also talking about bodies under tension. Not chain stays or down tubes.


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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    You realize spoke material means absolutely nothing in that regard right? Its all about the tension compressing the rim and how the loads are spread through the spokes/rim. The only way spokes would effect the wheel build in that way is if they were stretching and contracting during riding. All that matters is that when wheel build is completed the spokes no longer elongate and cause loss of tension on other spokes.

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    Dude, you realize that you can only tension spokes so much. The rim has to be able to take the tension else it will crack.


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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDee View Post
    Dude, you realize that you can only tension spokes so much. The rim has to be able to take the tension else it will crack.


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    And spoke tension, after a certain point (well below rim or spoke failure) has no impact on wheel stiffness.


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    ^ exactly. After a certain point it doesnt effect stiffness to any noticeable level. Once that point is reached all you are doing is pulling harder on the rim, the "stretch" of a spoke stops at a certain point.

    Even rider/bike weight can matter. A 150lb rider can run a lower tension to get the same feel and strength of a said wheel than a 250lb guy can.

    Bicycle wheels are like a cable suspension bridge. When you put weight on the axle, the load is actually carried by pulling on the spokes at the top. The spokes at the bottom actually loose a little bit of tension. Basically spokes are nothing but a bunch of support cables.

    Also why when you install and inflate a tire to fully pressure if you check spoke tension it is actually lower.

    So material used doesnt matter as long as its strong enough for the task and its fatigue life is long enough be useful in the application.

    Technically you could build a wheel with large deep sea kevlar fishing line and it would be as stiff and strong initially as anything else. But its useful life is really short and almost no abrasion resistance. Same with using just basic steel cable. But same problems. Fatigue life as well as just service life in general.

    Thats why stainless is the go to. Cheap, lasts a long time, corrosion resistant, any elongation during use comes returns to normal (elasticity) for its working life and is rather resistant to impacts and abrasions.


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  35. #35
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    Berd spokes.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    ^ exactly. After a certain point it doesnt effect stiffness to any noticeable level. Once that point is reached all you are doing is pulling harder on the rim, the "stretch" of a spoke stops at a certain point.

    Even rider/bike weight can matter. A 150lb rider can run a lower tension to get the same feel and strength of a said wheel than a 250lb guy can.

    Bicycle wheels are like a cable suspension bridge. When you put weight on the axle, the load is actually carried by pulling on the spokes at the top. The spokes at the bottom actually loose a little bit of tension. Basically spokes are nothing but a bunch of support cables.

    Also why when you install and inflate a tire to fully pressure if you check spoke tension it is actually lower.

    So material used doesnt matter as long as its strong enough for the task and its fatigue life is long enough be useful in the application.

    Technically you could build a wheel with large deep sea kevlar fishing line and it would be as stiff and strong initially as anything else. But its useful life is really short and almost no abrasion resistance. Same with using just basic steel cable. But same problems. Fatigue life as well as just service life in general.

    Thats why stainless is the go to. Cheap, lasts a long time, corrosion resistant, any elongation during use comes returns to normal (elasticity) for its working life and is rather resistant to impacts and abrasions.


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    Yeah. If the Berd spokes are made of typical UHMW polyethylene, they should be ~15x more abrasion resistant than carbon steel. Thatís huge.

    The problem with it is that itís really hard to tie into knots. Which is probably some of why the cost is so high.


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    From what I can see in the pics (mike needs to chime in on this though)

    Its not knotted though unless it is on the threaded end. Its ran into a loop with what appears to be a little nub that goes in the loop to hold it into the spoke holes on the hubs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Its not knotted though unless it is on the threaded end. Its ran into a loop with what appears to be a little nub that goes in the loop to hold it into the spoke holes on the hubs.

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    Sorry, what I meant to say is that, in order to make the loop on the hub end, they couldn't use a knot like a bowline or something; they had to weave it back into itself to make the loop. Which obviously makes manufacturing more difficult on their end.

    If it was simply cutting lengths of cord and tying knots in the end, it would be a lot, lot cheaper.
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    Ya that makes sense. I dont know anything about how they do that with any form of thread or cable. But would make one question the strength at that one location, the loop. Basic knowledge would be the loop is made simply, thus only half as thick at that location than the rest. But we cant see whats under the outer layer. If it is indeed layered as it appears.

    But what little reading Ive done on the material since mike started these threads it seems, though costly, they can do things standard steel cable or rope doesnt respond as well to in a design and manufacturing sense.

    Rather intriguing just trying to get a clue what these guys did. But mike's been hammering on them and they are holding up. Even if the marketing is only half of the improvements they say, still could be the future of spoke design. Especially if they deal with crap getting in them like sticks and such better than steel spokes do.

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  39. #39
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    I'm still curious how the threaded "spoke" attaches to the string part of the spoke. Also, what's the threaded part made of? I suggested to Berd that these be made black instead of white so they'll stay looking new longer. White Spinergy PBO spokes get stained black easily.
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    Check out the Wiki entries for UHMWPE. It's pretty amazing stuff.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-...t_polyethylene
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    I'm still curious how the threaded "spoke" attaches to the string part of the spoke. Also, what's the threaded part made of? I suggested to Berd that these be made black instead of white so they'll stay looking new longer. White Spinergy PBO spokes get stained black easily.
    Looking at pictures in some articles, it looks like it's actually the end of a spoke.

    No clue on the other question, though. Fixed with some epoxy, perhaps? And, under tension, the woven part should grip the "spoke" portion with incredible force. Think Chinese finger trap made out of crazy strong fiber under 120kgf.
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  42. #42
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    Quite a bit of extra grip it has on the flange there, I'd like to see how abrasive it is on the hub after some solid ride time
    video=youtube;][/video]...

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    so they work out at the same or depending on length a similar weight to the old Pillar Ti spokes. I assume their inherant flex will not be as good as the Berds and durability. So we are looking at 1g max savings per spoke over say the Sapims Supers, which are less than 1/2 the costs. Will wait a bit and see reviews and for the black ones to appear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Check out the Wiki entries for UHMWPE. It's pretty amazing stuff.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-...t_polyethylene
    I meant the metal part. It looks like a piece of a normal spoke to me too but stainless or Ti? I'm a sailor and kite surfer so familiar with Dyneema.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poynt View Post
    so they work out at the same or depending on length a similar weight to the old Pillar Ti spokes. I assume their inherant flex will not be as good as the Berds and durability. So we are looking at 1g max savings per spoke over say the Sapims Supers, which are less than 1/2 the costs. Will wait a bit and see reviews and for the black ones to appear.
    Are Sapim Supers lighter than CX-Rays? When I calculated weights I came up with saving something like 2g per spoke. Cutting a 1/4lb out of an already very light XC wheelset is impressive.
    Keep the Country country.

  46. #46
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    They are less than 2g a spoke. Thatís (less than) half of a CX-Ray.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    They are less than 2g a spoke. Thatís (less than) half of a CX-Ray.




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    I thought cxrays(bladed) were 4.5g, supers were 3.5g and there is also a cx-super(bladed) as well at 3.6g. The Pillar mega SS are 3.5g as well. Berds seem to come out at 2.3-2.8g depending on lengths.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    I meant the metal part. It looks like a piece of a normal spoke to me too but stainless or Ti? I'm a sailor and kite surfer so familiar with Dyneema.
    The two key things here are the mechanical connection between the two materials, and their maximum tension specification...to me these are the 1st two bits of information that would get end user's/builders interest. Hopefully someone can shed some light
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Saying that carbon is stiffer than steel is not true. It CAN be stiffer than steel.

    But, weíre also talking about bodies under tension. Not chain stays or down tubes.


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    Just in case there is noob confusion:

    Chain stays are usually under tension, as are down tubes unless you're cramming your front wheel into something.

    I'm guessing LD meant seat stays and top tubes.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zowie View Post
    Just in case there is noob confusion:

    Chain stays are usually under tension, as are down tubes unless you're cramming your front wheel into something.

    I'm guessing LD meant seat stays and top tubes.
    Now, Iím no engineer, but:

    Isnít a chain stay being pulled, or compressed, towards the BB by chain tension?

    Serious question. Genuinely curious.


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  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Now, Iím no engineer, but:

    Isnít a chain stay being pulled, or compressed, towards the BB by chain tension?

    Serious question. Genuinely curious.


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    Yep, the right chain stay is pulled towards the BB if the force you put on the chain is greater than the tension exerted by your weight on the bike, at least as I understand it.

    Also sounds like a great explanation of why the right CS tends to crack right in front of the dropout, but I was already digressing so I'll stop.

    edit: I should point out that with the 'noob' comment I wasn't referring to you, but someone who may read this but not feel like jumping into the pool with us weirdos.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by poynt View Post
    I thought cxrays(bladed) were 4.5g, supers were 3.5g and there is also a cx-super(bladed) as well at 3.6g. The Pillar mega SS are 3.5g as well. Berds seem to come out at 2.3-2.8g depending on lengths.
    Correct CX-Rays are 4.5 - 4.6 grams.
    Superspokes - 3.6 grams.
    Super CX-Rays - 3.7 grams. Scale pic.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Berd spokes.-img_9093_1.jpg  


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    So $500+ to save say 55g, that's a $10/g. Fine if they are the last possible upgrade on an already ww bike, but I can think of other parts before to change. We will have to see longer term how they behave, stretch, slacking, re truing abrasion etc.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by poynt View Post
    So $500+ to save say 55g, that's a $10/g. Fine if they are the last possible upgrade on an already ww bike, but I can think of other parts before to change. We will have to see longer term how they behave, stretch, slacking, re truing abrasion etc.
    Well...

    Sort of. If youíre comparing them to Sapim Super Spokes, the retail price of those is similar, at least for the black ones.

    So, instead of spending that same amount of money on Super Spokes, you could get spokes that appear to weigh 2.2g a piece, and might exceed steel in some desirable qualities.

    Seems to me that you'd save most of 100g over Sapim Super Spokes for not much more money. If someone is spending $5.75 to $8.25 for spokes already, I think the Berd spokes would receive consideration as well.

    Sapim Super Spoke - Bladed - Black

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    True I am not saying I wouldn't be interested, as that is why we are all here in this thread. I have two sets of existing wheels with supers so spending that much to loose that much is harder than if I was starting a new wheelset from scratch, which if I did then I would like to maximise the benefits of weight loss and no doubt end up with new rims and lighter hubs as well. $$$$$

    super spokes black are equivelant to $3.90 and cx supers are $4.80 online in Germany.

  56. #56
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    Curious to know how the interface to the steel bit at the end works. Will also be waiting for the price to come down.

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    maybe in the near future we may see progression when other companies that see this solution and adapt or add their expertise to possible weak areas and improve say the thread interface or where the spoke interfaces the rim/hub etc. We all know 1st gen stuff always have their problems and over time solutions are found and prices drop..usually!

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    I dont think the super spokes to berd spokes comparison is apples to apples. Super spokes in general are limited use, tiny spokes. They sacrifice a fair amount of strength to save weight. And not widly use in mountain bike applications due to overall smaller size.

    Berd spokes are, even by a small amount, stronger than any butted spokes. No info on comparison to good straight gauge. But all tested the same way and testing proves stronger. Having seen how materials are tested for that application its very standardized so no falsifying that.

    Need to look at the big picture. The only matter we are awaiting reports on is longevity.

    Of course room for improvements, but if you look into any products that use the material, none are budget minded. I agree $8 a spoke is ridiculously steep. But waiting for prices to come down doesnt help. Actually quite the opposite. These have been around 2-3 yrs with no change in price.

    How many of you though have wheel sets that are over $1000 a set? Full higher end bikes pushing $4-5k range? How many spent the insane price for Eagle 12s just to have 4 more teeth in the back?

    I dont fit any of those questions. Too rich for my blood. So many went crazy over eagle 12s, which was pushing $1000 for no real improvement except 4t bigger cog and shiny gold color.

    But $500+ to save a lot of weight in the spokes without sacrificing strength????? The most important place to be a weight weenie, the wheels.

    May not apply to any posters in this thread but I bet at least one will stop and think for a second. Especially if weight is always one of their biggest considerations for parts they buy.

    As I said. There is important info we are waiting on that will take time. But price versus the weight shouldnt even be an issue considering the location of the weight. Im seriously considering saving up for these though and little has to do with the weight. Lack of vibrations being transmitted is enough to get my attention.

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    Very cool. Similar in many ways to a design I've been working on for some time, but mine's not ready for introduction quite yet...

    Fred

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    Iíd be curious to know if wheels built with these would require more maintenance.


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  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by geraldooka View Post
    Iíd be curious to know if wheels built with these would require more maintenance.


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    Why would you think they would?

    The spokes should be just as, if not (far) more resilient than steel.


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  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Why would you think they would?

    The spokes should be just as, if not (far) more resilient than steel.


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    each spoke itself can 'inhale' if you will, dust dirt and water, and each individual spoke will see different levels of this

    each spoke water load or dirt load will change the characteristic of that spoke

    you rail a corner and some spokes will loosen and the wheel flexes, some dirt and dust will be able to settle into the weave on certain spokes and not others. once side load is removed, the spoke tensions back up again but now with added dirt inside. that tension is gonna be different than the moment before.

    will it matter on one ride or ten or a thousands rides, maybe not but maybe yes.

    got a wet spoke and it freezes, or dries out differently than the spoke next to it ?
    all these little micro and macro changes, will change spoke tension in subtle ways. will they affect wheel ? maybe no, but maybe yes.

    just a ton of variables in real world use of dyneema rope. if single strand on a reel used for hauling, or lashing, fine. who cares. but a system of 24 to 32 individual ropes, as part of a system (one trued wheel) exposed to dirt, dust, water...etc. all set up to a specific tension (and retensioning) I forsee a lot more maintenance vs a solid spoke or solid spoke cover (like spinergy spox) which won't allow ingress of contaminants and therefore hard to quantify system variables.

    strong spokes sure, light sure....gonna change characteristics over time if used in mountain biking you bet. it is that the amount of change over time will be different depending on how the wheel is ridden and what each spoke is exposed to, unlike single strand spokes (single wire, or single coated strand pile like spox)
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  63. #63
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    Having used Dyneema rope in other applications, Iím going to guess that a spoke under high tension is going to absorb far less water, if any, when compared to the same length of cord under no tension.


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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Having used Dyneema rope in other applications, Iím going to guess that a spoke under high tension is going to absorb far less water, if any, when compared to the same length of cord under no tension.


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    the thing is, real world riding will be de-tensioning spokes constantly, to some degree. all wheels do this. stand up steep climbing is an example....it will relax some of the spokes some percentage and then they go back to normal and the wheel rotates under power. since these spoke are woven and exposed, some dust and dirt is gonna work it's way in over time

    just saying there is a greater chance of variables changing the spoke characteristics since these are exposed weaves where crap can get in

    first time I actually saw spokes loose tension while climbing was spinergy Rev-X
    4x2 bladed murder wheels. on a climb you could hear the whop and see the pair of each set of 4 blades, one side would bow inward enough (loose tension) that spinergy added a little plastic i-bar to stick in between the spokes so when they flexed so much they wouldn't make the whop noise. so, a 32 spoke wheel or 4 spoke wheel, spokes are losing tension all day long depending on load. solid spoke, no matter, grit cannot get -inside it-...fabric spokes with exposed weave = tension loss = weave relaxing = ingress dirt or mung = slight changes over time
    Last edited by 127.0.0.1; 04-17-2018 at 09:02 AM.
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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    the thing is, real world riding will be de-tensioning spokes constantly, to some degree. all wheels do this. stand up steep climbing is an example....it will relax some of the spokes some percentage and then they go back to normal and the wheel rotates under power. since these spoke are woven and exposed, some dust and dirt is gonna work it's way in over time

    just saying there is a greater chance of variables changing the spoke characteristics since these are exposed weaves where crap can get in

    first time I actually saw spokes loose tension while climbing was spinergy Rev-X
    4x2 bladed murder wheels. on a climb you could hear the whop and see the pair of each set of 4 blades, one side would bow inward enough (loose tension) that spinergy added a little plastic i-bar to stick in between the spokes so when they flexed so much they wouldn't make the whop noise. so, a 32 spoke wheel or 4 spoke wheel, spokes are losing tension all day long depending on load. solid spoke, no matter, grit cannot get -inside it-...fabric spokes with exposed weave = tension loss = weave relaxing = ingress dirt or mung = slight changes over time
    You're assuming a spoke goes from 120kgf tension to 0kgf tension during a ride. If it went to 0kgf tension every rotation or every time the wheel flexes, it'll fail very quickly. They go from high tension to lower tension and back. So the likelihood of it going slack to the point it can absorb that much dirt and water, the wheel isn't properly tensioned.

  66. #66
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    There's a lot of incorrect information in this thread, so here's some facts.

    A properly tensioned wheel has every spoke always in tension. The tension only increases and decreases every rotation of the wheel.

    A wheel does not hang from it's upper spokes. The portion of the rim in contact with the ground flattens, putting the spokes closest to the ground under slightly less tension, and the spokes immediately surrounding the deflection under slightly higher tension.

    When looking at a singular spoke - tensile strength and stiffness are two different material properties. Stiff does not equal strong, strong does not equal stiff. (Stiff tends to be brittle).
    Yield strength = the amount of stretching a spoke can take before it starts to stretch permanently. Below this point it will spring back to it's original length. (This happens to a spoke under every rotation).
    Stiffness (youngs modulus) = the amount a spoke will stretch for a given load.

    For more reading, Google "stress strain curve" and "Young's Modulus".
    Last edited by visser; 04-18-2018 at 08:57 AM.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by visser View Post
    Tensile strength and stiffness are two different material properties. Stiff does not equal strong, strong does not equal stiff. (Stiff tends to be brittle)
    You're saying that as if the amount of tension on the spokes of a wheel doesn't affect it's stiffness.

    Fact?

  68. #68
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    You guys can argue the pros and cons all you want...but $512 just for the spokes? No way.
    Bicycles donít have motors or batteries.:nono:

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  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zowie View Post
    You're saying that as if the amount of tension on the spokes of a wheel doesn't affect it's stiffness.

    Fact?
    Not at all. Spoke tension definitely affects wheel stiffness.

    I was referring strictly to a singular spoke from a mechanical properties point of view. But I see how my comment could be easily misinterpreted, so I'll edit it for better clarity.

  70. #70
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    How much are you willing to pay for a set of carbon rims? And to drop how much from the weight of a wheelset?

    Enve mtb wheelset = $3,000

    Stans Crest rim = $100 x 2
    Spokes = $500
    Hubs = $300-800
    = $1000-1800.
    Probably just as light, if not lighter, and depending on the material properties of these spokes, could be stiffer / stronger.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by visser View Post
    There's a lot of incorrect information in this thread, so here's some facts.

    A properly tensioned wheel has every spoke always in tension. The tension only increases and decreases every rotation of the wheel.

    A wheel does not hang from it's upper spokes. The portion of the rim in contact with the ground flattens, putting the spokes closest to the ground under slightly less tension, and the spokes immediately surrounding the deflection under slightly higher tension.

    When looking at a singular spoke - tensile strength and stiffness are two different material properties. Stiff does not equal strong, strong does not equal stiff. (Stiff tends to be brittle).
    Yield strength = the amount of stretching a spoke can take before it starts to stretch permanently. Below this point it will spring back to it's original length. (This happens to a spoke under every rotation).
    Stiffness (youngs modulus) = the amount a spoke will stretch for a given load.

    For more reading, Google "stress strain curve" and "Young's Modulus".
    Actually right and wrong. My wording of "hanging" might be an incorrect term from an engineering standpoint but by definition it is correct. The spokes between the hub and sides/top of rim are carrying the load. The spokes face toward the "bottom" of the rim are doing little

    Spokes from bottom loose a small amount of tension from point of contact up till close to 90 deg around the wheel from either side before the tension increases in relation to the loss at the ground contact.

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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Actually right and wrong. My wording of "hanging" might be an incorrect term from an engineering standpoint but by definition it is correct. The spokes between the hub and sides/top of rim are carrying the load. The spokes face toward the "bottom" of the rim are doing little

    Spokes from bottom loose a small amount of tension from point of contact up till close to 90 deg around the wheel from either side before the tension increases in relation to the loss at the ground contact.

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    Agreed.

    Here's the excerpt from Jobst Brandt on that section.

    Berd spokes.-wheel-load-mechanism.jpg

  73. #73
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    you could build a sub kilo wheelset for under $1700-1800, still less than a lot of the standard off the shelf big manufactres wheelsets. Enve, DT etc.
    Carbofans rims $385/pair, Carbon-Ti, Tune or Extralite hubs $850+/-, Berds $500+.

  74. #74
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    Fascinating. Instead of spending boku bucks on the ends of the spokes why didn't they use cord half the strength tied into a loop? Both ends could use the little rod and lacing would be easy as pie
    Last edited by Darth Lefty; 04-18-2018 at 11:53 AM.

  75. #75
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    From the website: "On the hub side of the spoke, an eyelet is pulled through the hub hole and secured with a small rod or interlaced with another spoke. " There's a fun idea. Woven wheels!

    Or maybe knit
    https://www.ropeinc.com/sp11_sbraid_eye_tuck.htm

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by visser View Post
    How much are you willing to pay for a set of carbon rims?
    About $300-400.
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  77. #77
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    Iím really considering a wheel set with these spokes, but my primary concern is the modification required to the spoke eyes on the hubs. Would this modification render the hubs unusable with regular J bends if at some point you decide the Berd are not working out? Would it be better to build off J bend or straight pull hubs from the stand point of rebuilding with metal spokes down the road?

  78. #78
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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbell View Post
    Iím really considering a wheel set with these spokes, but my primary concern is the modification required to the spoke eyes on the hubs. Would this modification render the hubs unusable with regular J bends if at some point you decide the Berd are not working out? Would it be better to build off J bend or straight pull hubs from the stand point of rebuilding with metal spokes down the road?
    There's no hub modification.
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  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    There's no hub modification.
    Its not a significant mod, but it appears that you need to chamfer the spoke eyes on the hubs before lacing. I cant tell from the video how much material is being removed, so it may or may not affect the ability to re-lace with conventional J bends.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvWmdghWE-w&t=59s

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    I worked with Dyneena (a.k.a. "Spectra")...

    ...quite a bit when I was in the archery industry, as it's a popular material for bowstrings. While it's very strong, it has some undesirable properties:

    • It has a low melting point (<300 degrees F).
    • It's very heat-sensitive and will "creep" when it gets warm, well under its melting point.
    • It will creep over time when it's under high tension, though this eventually stabilizes to a degree.
    • It's not particularly abrasion resistant.

    "Creep" is permanent elongation which cannot be reversed.

    The upshot of this is that your wheels are likely to lose tension if you leave them in a hot environment, like the inside of a car on a sunny day. Keep your bike well away from campfires, as an errant spark could damage your spokes.

    BTW, if you want to test this, take a rag (so you don't burn your fingers) and wrap it around one of your spokes. Rub it back and forth until the spoke gets warm. I'll bet your wheel will go out of true. Granted, this is not something that you'd be doing out on a ride, but it illustrates how heat-sensitive the material is.

    While you're testing, take that same pair of scissors to a spoke that's under tension and you'll cut it in a heartbeat! The cut test as you conducted it would likely produce similar results with cheap nylon cord.

    Dyneema spokes are an interesting concept, but I don't see them as a practical solution, especially on mountain bikes, particularly when their only advantage is a few grams in weight savings. And at the price they're asking...forget it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    You need better reading comprehension.
    for a video?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dundundata View Post
    for a video?

    For the text that accompanied it.

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    If abrasion resistance is the big concern not why not add some epoxy? They become more spoke-like in the process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    If abrasion resistance is the big concern

    Having fondled, built with, and ridden these a fair bit, my only concern is coming up with the coin to put them on all my bikes. I/we won't know long term abrasion resistance until they've ben ridden/gacked on a lot longer. My preliminary $.02 is that they're more resistant to rock scuffs than metal spokes.

  87. #87
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    A few months in now. I've ridden these wheels on three different bikes. They bring an undeniable compliance to the ride. Whether that's desirable is personal.

    IMO people riding rigid bikes will benefit most from the compliance. Not sure whom *wouldn't* benefit from the loss of mass.

    Checked tension on them this AM and can't see where they've deviated at all since being built.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Berd spokes.-img_1667.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    If abrasion resistance is the big concern not why not add some epoxy? They become more spoke-like in the process.
    Because epoxy won't stick to it, not much of anything will. It's polyethylene.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    A few months in now. I've ridden these wheels on three different bikes. They bring an undeniable compliance to the ride. Whether that's desirable is personal.

    IMO people riding rigid bikes will benefit most from the compliance. Not sure whom *wouldn't* benefit from the loss of mass.

    Checked tension on them this AM and can't see where they've deviated at all since being built.


    Any comments on abrasion resistance, or lack of?
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Any comments on abrasion resistance, or lack of?

    Nothing to report, as yet.

    Every one of my bike-geek friends, upon seeing these wheels, has stepped off their bike, walked over, gotten down on a knee, run their fingers up and down at least one spoke, then absentmindedly uttered "crazy...".

    I think they may be in more danger of over-polishing (via bike gloves) than abrasion. But I'll check back in if that changes.

  91. #91
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    Great write up, as usual, Mike.
    Interested in following your results.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    ^ exactly. After a certain point it doesnt effect stiffness to any noticeable level. Once that point is reached all you are doing is pulling harder on the rim, the "stretch" of a spoke stops at a certain point.
    Tension doesn't affect stiffness because the stretchiness of spokes doesn't change with the load that's on them. Force:elongation (aka stress:strain) in this realm is linear.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    the load is actually carried by pulling on the spokes at the top.
    This is incorrect. The spokes that change in state, the one's doing the work of supporting the load, are the handful at the bottom.

    Quote Originally Posted by visser View Post
    There's a lot of incorrect information in this thread, so here's some facts.

    A properly tensioned wheel has every spoke always in tension. The tension only increases and decreases every rotation of the wheel.

    A wheel does not hang from it's upper spokes. The portion of the rim in contact with the ground flattens, putting the spokes closest to the ground under slightly less tension, and the spokes immediately surrounding the deflection under slightly higher tension.

    When looking at a singular spoke - tensile strength and stiffness are two different material properties. Stiff does not equal strong, strong does not equal stiff. (Stiff tends to be brittle).
    Yield strength = the amount of stretching a spoke can take before it starts to stretch permanently. Below this point it will spring back to it's original length. (This happens to a spoke under every rotation).
    Stiffness (youngs modulus) = the amount a spoke will stretch for a given load.

    For more reading, Google "stress strain curve" and "Young's Modulus".
    all dead on

    Quote Originally Posted by Zowie View Post
    You're saying that as if the amount of tension on the spokes of a wheel doesn't affect it's stiffness.

    Fact?
    yep
    Damon Rinard put is about as simply as possible:
    "Some believe that a wheel built with tighter spokes is stiffer. It is not."
    link

    Quote Originally Posted by visser View Post
    Not at all. Spoke tension definitely affects wheel stiffness.
    nope (see above)
    somewhere between your crisp, clear facts and this (and the below) conclusions you've gone haywire.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    The spokes between the hub and sides/top of rim are carrying the load. The spokes face toward the "bottom" of the rim are doing little
    This is incorrect and has been exhaustively modeled in FEA software as well as measured empirically.

    Quote Originally Posted by visser View Post
    Agreed.

    Here's the excerpt from Jobst Brandt on that section.
    The figure and the book state exactly the opposite of what you guys are saying. The last sentence of the caption in your picture is, "It does not make the hub hang from the top spokes as is sometimes suggested."
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  92. #92
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    Can we fight about lasers and stiffness yet?!

    Standing on tensioned spokes is fun to think about.

  93. #93
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    Got my wheels built, gonna test them in several days. The HyperFront driveside O-ring doesn't fit with all the plugs around.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Berd spokes.-img_20180526_091526.jpg  

    Berd spokes.-img_20180526_104826.jpg  

    Berd spokes.-img_20180526_104735.jpg  


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    Spent the weekend bikepacking on this bike/these wheels. Really rough/disused trail on the Uncompahgre Plateau. Lots of fist-sized rocks flipping up -- sometimes from my front wheel into my rear wheel, other times from the rear wheel of the rider ahead, into my front wheel. Lots more superficial scuffs/scratches on the rims now. Can't see any markings on the spokes.

    Color change: the ends of some spokes -- where the threaded metal bit exits the white dyneema -- are a bit dirty. Not sure if it's permanent or if it'll wash off. I don't tend to wash my bikes unless I get into bad mud, so it could be awhile til I have that answer.

  95. #95
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    those BERD spokes are gonna fray and fail eventually, that is a guarantee

    but I am gonna bet
    you'll die of old age before normal riding will bust one of those.

    barring accidental heat from a 'bike rack in front of an exhaust pipe'
    (likely the biggest real world risk), or
    rock dingers, those BERD spoke will need to physically appear to be furry and
    frayed, and will still hold up. it'll take a lot to make them fail.

    metal spokes will just eventually crack
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  96. #96
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    Finally started rolling on a new set of wheels with Berd spokes. Built them up with DT Swiss 240s hubs, Nextie NXT29UL30 offset hole rims and Sapim brass nipples.

    Pushed the tension up to the higher end of recommended during the build and the spokes held it just fine. Let them sit a couple of days before making final adjustments.

    Rode them first on my Soma CX/gravel bike with (tubeless) Thunder Burt 2.0 front/Slant Six 1.8 rear tires (same setup as I had with "conventional" wheels). Definitely a different feel/less vibration... like riding on thin carpet.

    Now Iíve got them on my Waltworks SS with 2.4 front /2.25 rear (tubeless) Racing Ralphs. Canít do much on dirt until the trails finally dry out after way too much rain the past few months.

    I may swap the wheels on my Spark 930 full suspension bike and hit some rocks sooner rather than later.




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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post


    This is incorrect and has been exhaustively modeled in FEA software as well as measured empirically.


    The figure and the book state exactly the opposite of what you guys are saying. The last sentence of the caption in your picture is, "It does not make the hub hang from the top spokes as is sometimes suggested."
    LOLz

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    I find this completely amazing. People are talking about how great Boost is, because it stiffened the wheel laterally with just 6 mm of greater hub flange spacing and drove a whole host of other changes to achieve that, and at the other end we have these Berd spokes that make the wheel much less stiff.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDee View Post
    I find this completely amazing. People are talking about how great Boost is, because it stiffened the wheel laterally with just 6 mm of greater hub flange spacing and drove a whole host of other changes to achieve that, and at the other end we have these Berd spokes that make the wheel much less stiff.
    Why do you think they make the wheel ďmuch less stiffĒ?

    No one here who has actually ridden them (MikeSee, a professional wheekbuilder) has said anything of the sort.




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  100. #100
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    Berd spokes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Why do you think they make the wheel ďmuch less stiffĒ?

    No one here who has actually ridden them (MikeSee, a professional wheekbuilder) has said anything of the sort.

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    Because steel spokes are much stiffer than the Berd spokes are.

  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDee View Post
    Because steel spokes are much stiffer than the Berd spokes are.
    Trolling?

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shark View Post
    Trolling?
    No, just trying to understand what's going on. On one hand, people want more stiffness and stiff wheels equate to more control (they say), then you have these Berd spokes at the other end of the spectrum.

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDee View Post
    No, just trying to understand what's going on. On one hand, people want more stiffness and stiff wheels equate to more control (they say), then you have these Berd spokes at the other end of the spectrum.
    Please tell me why you think Berd spokes would build a less stiff wheel than steel spokes.


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  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Please tell me why you think Berd spokes would build a less stiff wheel than steel spokes.


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    it's been proven that with steel spokes, gauge has a big factor on stiffness. that due to the stiffness of a single spoke itself. since these berds are floppy fabric, they equate to the stiffness of the thinnest possible steel spoke.

    from the paragraph below you can assume thin spoke equals a flexy spoke, and if a thin spoke can increase deflection 11% vs a fatter one, then it is not to big a jump to assume a berd spoke as strong in tension as possible, will allow more lateral deflection than steel (or any stiffer spoke)

    How does spoke gauge affect stiffness?
    Thicker spokes make a wheel stiffer, if all else is equal. A typical 32-spoke wheel built with 2.0mm spokes is about 11% stiffer than a similar wheel built with 2.0-1.45mm swaged spokes.

    Compare the deflection of two wheels: numbers 39 and 47. Wheel 39 is built with 2.0 1.45mm swaged spokes, but wheel 47 is built with 2.0mm straight-gauge spokes. Hub dimensions are effectively identical, spoke count is the same and the rims are the same make and model, so the only structural difference is the spoke gauge.

    Result? The wheel with thinner spokes deflected 0.051" (1.30mm) in font and 0.067" (1.70mm) in the rear, but the wheel with thicker spokes deflected less: only 0.046" (1.17mm) and 0.055" (1.40mm) for front and rear, respectively. That's an 11% increase in stiffness for the thicker-spoked wheels.

    Interestingly, wheel stiffness depends on more than just spoke thickness: the rim and other factors also contribute, so only part of the increase in raw spoke stiffness shows up in measured wheel stiffness. The thicker spoke by itself is nearly twice as stiff axially as the thinner spoke!>

    from
    https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html



    Berd wheels will be fine, and strong, and outlast metal by far..... but in a vice and in clamps and doing deflection tests vs metal spokes, berd will deflect a bit more. just push on one berd spoke with your finger then do the same to a metal spoke, which one has more give for equal pressure ? not rocket science. spokes only need to support tension they do not support load. but wheel deflection forces have a better time deflecting a wheel where the load carrying capacity of a spoke is extremely small with berd, vs metal which has 'at least some more' side-load bearing capacity.

    it's not gonna matter for real
    if you want some nice hoops berd is a great option. I been reviewing other industrial uses of PE aramid fibers and the tensile strength and robustness of this stuff is off the charts.

    yes they will get furry after a lot of abuse, still doesn't matter, they'll still outlive your bones. ride in broken glass or bash some rocks of course they may get cut, but metal spokes will nick and eventually break too, so no change there. what does change is these won't break from fatigue -ever- in your lifetime whereas metal spokes eventually will crack somewhere someday.
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  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDee View Post
    I find this completely amazing. People are talking about how great Boost is, because it stiffened the wheel laterally with just 6 mm of greater hub flange spacing and drove a whole host of other changes to achieve that, and at the other end we have these Berd spokes that make the wheel much less stiff.

    For starters, I don't hear anyone talking about how Boost has changed much other than lightened our collective wallet. It makes a difference on paper, yes, but few can tell much difference on the trail.

    Now if you're talking SuperBoost (aka 150/157) then yeah -- big differences are notable there, and have been for 10+ years or as long as that spacing has existed.

    As for the Berd spokes, I think you're confusing compliance with flex. I don't notice any flex from the wheel, I just note a more muted feel coming through the wheel.

    See?

  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Please tell me why you think Berd spokes would build a less stiff wheel than steel spokes.


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    Le Duke has an excellent point here, which is why I only spec my wheels with the finest cooked pasta.

  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    those BERD spokes are gonna fray and fail eventually, that is a guarantee

    but I am gonna bet
    you'll die of old age before normal riding will bust one of those.

    barring accidental heat from a 'bike rack in front of an exhaust pipe'
    (likely the biggest real world risk), or
    rock dingers, those BERD spoke will need to physically appear to be furry and
    frayed, and will still hold up. it'll take a lot to make them fail.

    metal spokes will just eventually crack


    Negativity + ignorance is a bad combo.

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Negativity + ignorance is a bad combo.

    bite me. negativity + ignorance is what keeps me atop my milk crate throne behind the 7/11 selling crack to minors.
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    Berd spokes.

    Iíd suggest people read up on the properties of Dyneema vs steel and get back to us. Then, think about how that would apply to wheelbuilding.

    Otherwise you are just making unfounded arguments.

    Hint: itís 12-15x stronger for the same weight, with comparable resistance to stretch.




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    Yeah, ignorance is really bad. Which is why it's odd that none of the Berd literature lists the actual stiffness of their spokes. I'll assume the "pull strength" is UTS but that doesn't tell us a lot.

    I found a young's modulous of UHMW Polyethylene to be 1 GPa on the Dielectric Corporation's website and up to 100 GPa in the Dyneema literature. The modulous of 18-8 stainless is 200 GPa. So if that's true then a Berd spoke would need double the cross sectional area of a steel spoke to have the same stiffness, everything else being equal, best case.

    Lacking stiffness isn't necessarily a bad thing in use, but the problem is that when designing for fatigue life you want to minimize strain. Berd hasn't released any fatigue data that I can find, and the statement on their website regarding materials and fatigue life is kinda silly. The vast majority of polymers have poor fatigue properties and steel has no fatigue limit if designed properly.

    Dyneema has some handy data, but notice that the steel curve is flattening out, so you can design a bike wheel with steel spokes for infinite fatigue. The Dyneema curve is straight down to 60% as far as I can tell, and they only go to 2 million cycles. So who knows what happens for lower load ranges. On road bike wheels you only need to ride 2800 miles to get to 2 million cycles, but mountain bike's are harsher on wheels.



    http://www.pelicanrope.com/pdfs/Dyne...Tech_Sheet.pdf

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    Berd spokes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Yeah, ignorance is really bad. Which is why it's odd that none of the Berd literature lists the actual stiffness of their spokes. I'll assume the "pull strength" is UTS but that doesn't tell us a lot.

    I found a young's modulous of UHMW Polyethylene to be 1 GPa on the Dielectric Corporation's website and up to 100 GPa in the Dyneema literature. The modulous of 18-8 stainless is 200 GPa. So if that's true then a Berd spoke would need double the cross sectional area of a steel spoke to have the same stiffness, everything else being equal, best case.

    Lacking stiffness isn't necessarily a bad thing in use, but the problem is that when designing for fatigue life you want to minimize strain. Berd hasn't released any fatigue data that I can find, and the statement on their website regarding materials and fatigue life is kinda silly. The vast majority of polymers have poor fatigue properties and steel has no fatigue limit if designed properly.

    Dyneema has some handy data, but notice that the steel curve is flattening out, so you can design a bike wheel with steel spokes for infinite fatigue. The Dyneema curve is straight down to 60% as far as I can tell, and they only go to 2 million cycles. So who knows what happens for lower load ranges. On road bike wheels you only need to ride 2800 miles to get to 2 million cycles, but mountain bike's are harsher on wheels.



    http://www.pelicanrope.com/pdfs/Dyne...Tech_Sheet.pdf
    Bravo!

    These spokes can't be double the thickness of stainless spokes because they work with conventional hubs and wouldn't fit through the spoke holes if they were. They are also a woven material so that their cross sectional area is going to be less than if they were solid like steel spokes are.

    Maybe stiffness doesn't matter much, or maybe it really does. Bike manufacturers are going through all sorts of efforts to stiffen up bikes and forks with oversized tubing, tapered steerer tubes, Boost, etc. and now there's these spokes flying in the face of all that noise.

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    Last edited by MikeDee; 09-17-2018 at 02:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    bite me. negativity + ignorance is what keeps me atop my milk crate throne behind the 7/11 selling crack to minors.

    And then you go throwing in anger and delusions of grandeur and someone might need to take away your myspace account...

  113. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDee View Post
    Bravo!

    These spokes can't be double the thickness of stainless spokes because they work with conventional hubs and wouldn't fit through the spoke holes if they were. They are also a woven material so that their cross sectional area is going to be less than if they were solid like steel spokes are.

    Maybe stiffness doesn't matter much, or maybe it really does. Bike manufacturers are going through all sorts of efforts to stiffen up bikes and forks with oversized tubing, tapered steerer tubes, Boost, etc. and now there's these spokes flying in the face of all that noise.

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    Double the thickness?

    No. Just stop.

    The person you quoted wrote "double the cross sectional area", not double the thickness.

    Let's do some simple math.

    A DT Comp is 2.0-1.6-2.0mm. In the middle of the spoke, it's 0.8mm in radius.

    Therefore, its cross sectional area is (0.8^2)*pi. Or 2.0106 square millimeters.

    To DOUBLE the cross sectional area, 2.0106*2= 4.0212.

    4.0212/pi = 1.28. The square root of 1.28 is: 1.13mm. Double that for diameter.

    A 2.26mm Berd spoke would have the same stiffness, per Schulze, as a DT Comp.

    Now, I don't know what hubs you use, but my DT Swiss hubs have a spoke hole of 2.5mm, per their website.

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  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Double the thickness?

    No. Just stop.

    The person you quoted wrote "double the cross sectional area", not double the thickness.

    Let's do some simple math.

    A DT Comp is 2.0-1.6-2.0mm. In the middle of the spoke, it's 0.8mm in radius.

    Therefore, its cross sectional area is (0.8^2)*pi. Or 2.0106 square millimeters.

    To DOUBLE the cross sectional area, 2.0106*2= 4.0212.

    4.0212/pi = 1.28. The square root of 1.28 is: 1.13mm. Double that for diameter.

    A 2.26mm Berd spoke would have the same stiffness, per Schulze, as a DT Comp.

    Now, I don't know what hubs you use, but my DT Swiss hubs have a spoke hole of 2.5mm, per their website.

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    The Berd website says "Reduced 1.8mm cross section for improved aerodynamics."

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    Berd spokes.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDee View Post
    The Berd website says "Reduced 1.8mm cross section for improved aerodynamics."
    Ok. My math was using the 100 GPa and 200 GPa rating for Dyneema and stainless, respectively. Many Dyneema products are rated in the 130+ range. Which would put the difference at a few percent between the two products. Particularly when, for example, Sapim spokes are made from AISI 302 stainless, which has a YM of 180 GPa.

    Depending on grade of fiber used, they might actually be ďstifferĒ than Comps.




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    ...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

    ...not sure whether to admire, pity, or laugh at the folks trying to explain the physics and engineering involved here (no...not YOU, or you...you THINK you are doing the explaining but you are the ones that need things explained to you)
    Riding: '91 Carbon Epic Stumpjumper w/a rack on the back

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    Quote Originally Posted by IPA Rider View Post
    ...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

    ...not sure whether to admire, pity, or laugh at the folks trying to explain the physics and engineering involved here (no...not YOU, or you...you THINK you are doing the explaining but you are the ones that need things explained to you)
    Oh, I readily acknowledge that Iím not an engineer. But, Iím capable of reading, doing simple math, collecting publicly available data and comparing that to other data.

    If anything Iíve said here is wrong, please correct me. Like most other people, Iím here to learn.


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  118. #118
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    Someone posted that a 1.45 spoke deflects 11% more than a 2.0 spoke.

    ... That's not really that much more, and that's thinner than the thinnest spoke available. There's just not a huge difference to be had in spoke selection, unconditionally I think.

    It's like looking for gold digging in your nose. There's just none there no matter how hard you try. These silly thing are 500 bucks a set! There's not enough potential benefit on the table to make that make sense.

  119. #119
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    Everyone is confusing the two types of stiffness (or bending modes while riding). All the responses above relate to the wheel deflecting in the vertical direction (by a tiny amount compared with tires). This is generally not an issue. The bigger issue with wheels is lateral stiffness and bending. This can be demonstrated by putting the hub in a vice with the wheel horizontal and adding weight to the rims and seeing how far it deflects based on load. Wheels that are "flexy" in this bending mode are harder to steer and can even cause the tire to rub on the chainstays. This deflection is usually MUCH greater then the deflection noted above. Note that this is felt in cornering, particularily if you are heavy and really rail the corners. This is where Carbon really outshines aluminum as most of the deflection is cause by the rim stiffness. As to whether polymer spokes make much of a difference I do not have the data on it but expect it is still more a property of the rim.

  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Someone posted that a 1.45 spoke deflects 11% more than a 2.0 spoke.

    ... That's not really that much more, and that's thinner than the thinnest spoke available. There's just not a huge difference to be had in spoke selection, unconditionally I think.

    It's like looking for gold digging in your nose. There's just none there no matter how hard you try. These silly thing are 500 bucks a set! There's not enough potential benefit on the table to make that make sense.
    I think the discussion on these spokes and stiffness of bikes and components in general is useful, as long as we refrain from insulting each other. $500 is not much for a set of wheels. I still believe that they build a less stiff wheel (but perhaps not as much as I initially suspected) and there is the creep problem that I think was discussed in the other thread that would keep me from using them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDee View Post
    I think the discussion on these spokes and stiffness of bikes and components in general is useful, as long as we refrain from insulting each other. $500 is not much for a set of wheels. I still believe that they build a less stiff wheel (but perhaps not as much as I initially suspected) and there is the creep problem that I think was discussed in the other thread that would keep me from using them.

    There really isn't evidence of creep as yet, although I'll readily admit that it's still early days to make that call. I'm coming up on 10 months and ~2000 miles on my first set, and about to build myself another set for fatbike use.

    If your concern about creep is that the wheels will need to be retensioned, it's probably worth noting here that this happens to some extent with normal steel spokes too.

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDee View Post
    I think the discussion on these spokes and stiffness of bikes and components in general is useful, as long as we refrain from insulting each other. $500 is not much for a set of wheels. I still believe that they build a less stiff wheel (but perhaps not as much as I initially suspected) and there is the creep problem that I think was discussed in the other thread that would keep me from using them.
    You really dont think a ~$450 upcharge for spokes alone is a big deal? Maybe we're in different income brackets. Thats a ton for me.

  123. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    You really dont think a ~$450 upcharge for spokes alone is a big deal? Maybe we're in different income brackets. Thats a ton for me.

    It's a lot of money for me, too.

    But everything's relative. I don't drink beer, don't smoke dope, don't eat out much, my car is paid for, and bikes and boats are my only 'mad money' expenditures. Spending $500 and getting a more compliant ride isn't much in the grand scheme of things.

    Bikes in general aren't much in the grand scheme of things, when you get right down to it. Read the headlines and see that there's a guy that's spending billions to take a plane ride around the moon. Another that's spending like $190 million -- in cash -- to buy a magazine. Hundreds of thousands of people are about to line up to pay $1k for a phone.

    None of it is right or wrong -- people get to choose how they spend their money.

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    You really dont think a ~$450 upcharge for spokes alone is a big deal? Maybe we're in different income brackets. Thats a ton for me.
    I thought wrong that was for complete set of wheels, so yeah I agree.

  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    There really isn't evidence of creep as yet, although I'll readily admit that it's still early days to make that call. I'm coming up on 10 months and ~2000 miles on my first set, and about to build myself another set for fatbike use.

    If your concern about creep is that the wheels will need to be retensioned, it's probably worth noting here that this happens to some extent with normal steel spokes too.
    Creep was not a concern for me on the Berd build. I wonder more about cosmetic fraying at either end of the spokes over time, more so at the hub hole interface I imagine.

    Of the ~8 wheel sets with varying sorts of steel spokes I am currently running, only one rear wheel required re-tensioning after a year or so.

    It is a Stan's stock Crest that had ridden a number of stairs and decent drops. I eventually swapped in an ArchEX hoop and it is still going strong.
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    Wax them, like a bow string?
    Do the math.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Porkchop_Power View Post
    Everyone is confusing the two types of stiffness (or bending modes while riding). All the responses above relate to the wheel deflecting in the vertical direction (by a tiny amount compared with tires). This is generally not an issue. The bigger issue with wheels is lateral stiffness and bending. This can be demonstrated by putting the hub in a vice with the wheel horizontal and adding weight to the rims and seeing how far it deflects based on load. Wheels that are "flexy" in this bending mode are harder to steer and can even cause the tire to rub on the chainstays. This deflection is usually MUCH greater then the deflection noted above. Note that this is felt in cornering, particularily if you are heavy and really rail the corners. This is where Carbon really outshines aluminum as most of the deflection is cause by the rim stiffness. As to whether polymer spokes make much of a difference I do not have the data on it but expect it is still more a property of the rim.
    actually flexy wheels generally rub chainstays less.
    Bending modes? Try again...
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    actually flexy wheels generally rub chainstays less.
    Bending modes? Try again...
    My experience was quite opposite of that, the flexy 29er wheelset would rub the chainstays under hard cornering.
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  129. #129
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    I think he meant rims. Stiff rims rub chainstays. A noodly rim will flex at the bottom only, like a wet noodle.

    This is a bigger deal on road bikes with narrow spacing. Becomes really obvious.

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    I have found frames play a HUGE part in this as well. People sometimes point at rims and ignore the frame aspect.

    But rubbing I have experienced as a big rider has always been more noodly rims when I'm on a properly built frame (big guy and XC frame doesnt mix well railing corners for me, more rubbing and flexing issues in the rear). The more lateral stiffness a wheel has the less issues I have pushing tire clearance in a frame.

    Have to say the more I watch this thread the more I want to save the funds for these. Thankfully by the time I can buy them the more time they are put through our level abuse and I'll know if they last well enough to justify the cost.

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    How would they rub the chainstay less since they are bending more? That makes no sense. I should have said deflecting more from the fixed hub but either way even with crappy old 26 wheelsets I could easily bend the lighter ones and rub the chainstay holding the bike still.

  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porkchop_Power View Post
    How would they rub the chainstay less since they are bending more? That makes no sense. I should have said deflecting more from the fixed hub but either way even with crappy old 26 wheelsets I could easily bend the lighter ones and rub the chainstay holding the bike still.
    First, rereading my post it came off snarky AF... apologies.
    I meant rims... wheels can be ďflexyĒ in different ways. If the rims are not stiff, they flex locally (at the point of applied force) but not much elsewhere. Stiff rims move more as a plane, where any displacement will result in movement all around the wheel. The phenomenon is influenced by other factors affecting the stiffness of the wheel, including the number, gauge, and lacing of the spokes, and the flange spacing of the hub.
    A wheel with a very stiff rim and narrow flange spacing or very thin spikes would be the worst case interns of ground displacements causing movement of the rim relative to the frame around the wheel (stay rub).
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
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  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    My experience was quite opposite of that, the flexy 29er wheelset would rub the chainstays under hard cornering.
    Individual experiences really donít offer much in a discussion of first principles and engineering. Iím not discounting it, but the whole of the experience is unknown and performance trends or tendencies are quantified statistically, for which individual data points have little to no bearing.
    Iím not sure what data you based you determination of ďflexyĒ on for your wheel or any of the other circumstances surrounding your experience, but the fact that forces applied at the ground translated into movement of the wheel at the stays means that at least the rim was relatively (in the context of 29er mtb rims) stiff. If you had a few thin spokes or a rear triangle or axle fixture that were not stiff, any of those could have played a role, but arenít attributable to the wheel in the latter cases.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    I have found frames play a HUGE part in this as well. People sometimes point at rims and ignore the frame aspect.

    But rubbing I have experienced as a big rider has always been more noodly rims when I'm on a properly built frame (big guy and XC frame doesnt mix well railing corners for me, more rubbing and flexing issues in the rear). The more lateral stiffness a wheel has the less issues I have pushing tire clearance in a frame.

    Have to say the more I watch this thread the more I want to save the funds for these. Thankfully by the time I can buy them the more time they are put through our level abuse and I'll know if they last well enough to justify the cost.

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    You're mixing and matching terms and components here-- part of the reason why individual experiences can always be turned up as contradictory "evidence" when there are none of the factors that would qualify it as valid such as control, bias consideration, statistically significant number of samples. Most of the time in these discussions a meaningful fraction of the relevant basic facts aren't even offered, as in this case and that mentioned by Jayem.
    Lateral stiffness and a wheel's load-response behavior is affected by more than just the "noodliness" of the rim spec.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Individual experiences really donít offer much in a discussion of first principles and engineering. Iím not discounting it, but the whole of the experience is unknown and performance trends or tendencies are quantified statistically, for which individual data points have little to no bearing.
    Iím not sure what data you based you determination of ďflexyĒ on for your wheel or any of the other circumstances surrounding your experience, but the fact that forces applied at the ground translated into movement of the wheel at the stays means that at least the rim was relatively (in the context of 29er mtb rims) stiff. If you had a few thin spokes or a rear triangle or axle fixture that were not stiff, any of those could have played a role, but arenít attributable to the wheel in the latter cases.
    Well, "flexy" was because it (stock alloy specialized wheelset) was rubbing the chainstays during hard cornering. I had never had a bike do that before. Tightening the heck out of the spokes, higher than normal, helped significantly and made it much more occasional, but didn't make it go away completely. Once I built up some carbon wheeled rims for the bike, the problem did go away altogether.
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  136. #136
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    I sent an email to Berd, asking about creep, stiffness, loss of tension over time, etc. Here is their reply:

    Hi,

    Thanks for your email and your interest in our spokes. Yes, we haven't found any negative effects due to creep. We haven't found any negative effects of wheels being stored in a hot car, but you certainly want to keep the spokes away from extremely high temperatures. Our spokes are about 2/3 the stiffness of similar gauge steel spokes.

    What other questions can I answer? Are you interested in purchasing our spokes for a wheelbuild?

    Thanks,
    Charlie

    On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 5:11 PM <[email protected]> wrote:
    Have you researched/tested your spokes to determine how/if they are affected by loss of tension in assembled wheels over time due to creep? Are they sensitive to heat, such as the wheels being stored in the back of a hot car? How stiff are your spokes as compared to similar thickness stainless steel spokes? Thanks.

  137. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    There really isn't evidence of creep as yet, although I'll readily admit that it's still early days to make that call. I'm coming up on 10 months and ~2000 miles on my first set, and about to build myself another set for fatbike use.

    If your concern about creep is that the wheels will need to be retensioned, it's probably worth noting here that this happens to some extent with normal steel spokes too.
    I'm looking to build up a chinese carbon wheel and glad you brought this up.
    Creep is definitely an issue with Dyneema. Sk75, Sk78, Sk99 from DSM will all creep over time, even as low as 18įC.
    At 30įC, the wheels would detention is just a few weeks.
    However, just a few years ago, DSM released DM20 which was a massive improvement in creep. It basically flatlines even up to 30įC. I don't think it's a coincidence that Berd LLC appeared about a year after DSM released this material.

    That said, I love to DIY, so I am planning to make a set of my own. I think you can make them for $1 or less per spoke. Dyneema is not that expensive.
    I've read Berd's patent, and it's dead simple. You literally cut off the end of a cheap spoke, attach the dyneema with super glue (with a certain length buried in the hollow braid; it grips like a chinese finger trap; the glue is just for no-load retention) and use a standard loop splice on the other end.

    @mikesee, is there a recommended internal nipple to use with these that you know of?

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    Dang, I wrote a reply and it dissapeared.

    I am glad you guys brought up creep.
    Creep is certaitnyl a concern with UHMWPE.
    DSM's SK78, even SK99 will all creep, even as low as 18įC. Per DSM's data.
    At 30įC, they would potentially detension in just a few weeks.

    However, just a few years ago, DSM released their DM20 material, which is a huge jump in creep performance. It's basically flatlined, even at 45% breaking load at 30įC.
    And even at 70įC with 20% load its almost flatlined.


    I love to DIY, and I'm cheap, so I am going to build a set myself.
    I have read their patent and it's dead simple. I think you could make them at home for less then $1 per spoke.
    Ive sourced some 1.8mm SK78 and Sk99 material for an initial build, but still looking for some 1.8mm or 2mm DM20. No one offers it yet.
    The Sk78 or SK99 should last quite a while in my mild climate in Washington. The 2mm sk99 stuff is also rated at 850kg, so i'd only be loading it to less then 13% breaking load which would really limit creep anyway.
    I don't know any 2mm steel spokes that could hold anywhere near 800kg. Impressive stuff.

    Here is a chart from a DSM presentation.
    DM20 is like 2 orders of magnitude improvement in creep.Berd spokes.-capture.jpg

    https://www.dsm.com/content/dam/dsm/...%20Dyneema.pdf

    @Mikesee Is there a recommended internal nipple to use with these spokes?
    Last edited by okashira; 01-27-2019 at 03:15 PM.

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  140. #140
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    Very interesting, okashira! I'm interested to see your home made spokes when you get them.

  141. #141
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    Making the loop on the end is the tricky part. As is finding a suitable glue to attach the spoke end to the Dyneema.

    I think 3M makes a liquid acrylic glue specifically for HDPE. 8005, IIRC.


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    He can just tie a knot at both ends and have some sort of expanding insert to tension.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Making the loop on the end is the tricky part. As is finding a suitable glue to attach the spoke end to the Dyneema.

    I think 3M makes a liquid acrylic glue specifically for HDPE. 8005, IIRC.


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    Honestly, I think any glue will work. The microscopic fibers have so much surface area that you don't need a good bond.
    Last edited by okashira; 01-27-2019 at 03:16 PM.

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    Knots are generally a bad idea with uhmwpe. They weaken the rope and tend to slip out. You gotta splice. YouTube how to splice a loop in dyneema.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Thanks. I meant to say internal nipples. My x1700's and my Chinese carbon rims coming are internal. When I mentioned it to Charlie at Berd, he said to use a specific one and I didn't write it down. I'd ask him but he's not replying to my emails anymore .

  146. #146
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    Well that's very interesting. A splice is almost 100% of the strength.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Well that's very interesting. A splice is almost 100% of the strength.
    This is the specific splice Berd describes in their patent.
    They add a dab of super glue to the bury. (instead of twine)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ND8Gfk_bVI

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    outdated
    Last edited by okashira; 01-28-2019 at 12:30 AM.

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    Outdated information
    Last edited by okashira; 01-28-2019 at 12:21 AM.

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    EDIT: post deleted as part of the information violates an active patent
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Berd spokes.-untitled.jpg  

    Last edited by okashira; 01-27-2019 at 03:12 PM.

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    Wow. Very impressed with your work here. Well done.

    I wonder if Berd will drop their prices now...




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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    First try.

    Super cool DIY project. Deserves more detail as you learn from your mistakes.

    Should also be it's own thread -- inappropriate to take this one hostage.

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    Call me intrigued. I find the this all interesting. With the spoke nipple interface still being a traditional combo, is it likely we would see any fatigue life increase? In my experience, when I break spokes, it's almost always at or near the nipple.

    I would think the primary benefit is weight reduction which is significant.

  154. #154
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    Thanks a ton for posting all this info, I am very intrigued. I will have to take some time to read up on this and how you did it. Makes sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    The super glue does NOT hold the load. It's only there to allow the Dyneema to pull tight and squeeze down onto the shaft like a Chinese finger trap, and it grips the shaft like that.
    Berd spokes.-untitled.jpg
    How long do you really think that spoke shaft needs to be? I guess I'm wondering what length it takes for dyneema to wrap around that shaft under tension like a finger trap? (great example, btw).

    I'm also contemplating why we jump to spoke-like materials without trying to innovate a little bit, since splicing is something that can potential save a lot of weight working with dyneema.

    How does PiRope secure their end bolts to the strings? Could we do something similar with Dyneema or is there a difference in the properties of the two materials that would make this a bad thing to do? I can see potential for a lighter system if a nipple-like bolt could just be "glued" to the end of the dyneema fiber, which can then be tensioned with a nut on the inner rim bed.

    There must be another way to do this!
    Last edited by sissypants; 10-26-2018 at 10:48 AM.
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    Cool DIY product but I can help but feel some concern for the developer who came up with this product having his hard work taken apart, and copied.

    That said, if the technology proves to provide no downside (except for cost) then I would incorporate it in to my next wheel build. However I'd purchase a complete package from an experienced provider.

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  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Super cool DIY project. Deserves more detail as you learn from your mistakes.

    Should also be it's own thread -- inappropriate to take this one hostage.
    +1 jeesh
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    I'm still curious why you couldn't take a line half the size and make a loop. It would have to be easier than doing 5 dozen ish miniature splices at 10-15 minutes each.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
    I'm still curious why you couldn't take a line half the size and make a loop. It would have to be easier than doing 5 dozen ish miniature splices at 10-15 minutes each.
    You could. But you need a way to tension the spokes, thus a threaded end... The splice actually only takes 1-2 minutes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    In basic theory, no. The spoke end/nipple will see all the same loads.
    you could move to a 13g nipple for more strength there.

    However, the UHMWPE material has a nice ability to damp some high frequency loads and shock loads which may increase the fatigue life of the spoke end / nipple.

    @Suns_PSD A bit hard for me to take them apart given Berd won't sell me spokes. I learned everything from their patent and some basic engineering knowledge.
    Not many will pay $1200+ for a set of 4 wheels of spokes (that's what you will pay for the spokes, labor, and trouble of shipping them hubs and rims)
    I'm happy to give others an option to build their own at home.
    I have all but confirmed that they(Berd) do in fact use DM20 material, Marlow (large rope manufacturer) has an NDA and an exclusivity agreement with some company for 1.8mm DM20 stranded Dyneema.
    Anyway, we can take this to another thread at the OP's request.
    You should start a new thread.

    Your ambition and specific information is impressive! I agree that Berd is using the DM20 material. This makes sense based on their public release date and the release date of DM20 being one year earlier, their patent info describing the specific properties of the material, and also the fact that only DM20 is particularly stretch-resistent.

    I was on the fence about saving up for Berds, but no longer.

    It's confusing to me how Pi-Rope can be using such an elastic material and yet claim the same tension-and-forget marketing pitch that Berd is using. It seems to me that Pi-Rope spokes should require constant re-tensioning.

    Does this exclusivity agreement mean that we can't order 1.8mm DM20 stranded Dyneema from Marlow?

    What about using 1.2mm DM20 Dyneema? Is this too narrow? We aren't trying to lift lead-heavy riggings with this stuff.
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  162. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by okashira View Post
    You could. But you need a way to tension the spokes, thus a threaded end...
    Sure. But it could be a screw eye.

    The splice actually only takes 1-2 minutes.
    Well you'd get some practice! :-D

  163. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Cool DIY product but I can help but feel some concern for the developer who came up with this product having his hard work taken apart, and copied.

    That said, if the technology proves to provide no downside (except for cost) then I would incorporate it in to my next wheel build. However I'd purchase a complete package from an experienced provider.

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    Yeah AHHHH, that is kina the whole point.

    I can DIY all sorts of things (that could fail epically) and prefer purchasing bike components from someone who has done the proper R&D and actually got the spokes race certified... certainly a non-trivial task.

    DIY discussion in this thread is super bad form IMO; just sayin...

    There are herds of people who have paid $2k or more for wheel sets so going gonzo on spokes/nipples is not all that outlandish in the grand scheme of things.

    I got the new/unboxed DT 240s hubs for $200 from someone who decided boost and <32 holes was "the thing they needed". Threw some of that savings at spokes... no big deal.

    I'm in a solid financial spot where it is feasible for me to pay the freight for something relatively new and different... sure, the cost will most likely go down over time as Berd produces more and the design may change too... all good by me.
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  164. #164
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    Since wheels are held together in tension thinner spokes of the same material will flex more because the thinner spokes stretch more. Stretch in engineering terms is called strain and is measured as in/in or mm/mm. Anyway, if the berd rope has less strain, then the the rope will stretch less and result in actually less flex.

    But a stiff rim changes the way a wheel flexes. A lightweight aluminum rim will bend when it flexes, whereas a stiff carbon rim will resist bending and rotate laterally around the hub which may in some cases result in a wheel that flexes more depending on where you are taking your measurements.

    Since carbon rims are generally much stiffer than aluminum rims they will be much stiffer vertically as long as the spokes remain in tension. Since aluminum rims can more easily bend at a single area they can allow the spoke tension to drop in that area, whereas a carbon rim has a greater ability to remain round under load and activate all spokes together.

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    This is really interesting and I hope he continues to post. Mikesee posts his wheel-selling spam on boards all the time, so I don't see any issues with the guy continuing to post his DIY stuff on this thread.
    Last edited by Jayem; 10-28-2018 at 03:24 PM.
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  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by changingleaf View Post
    Since wheels are held together in tension thinner spokes of the same material will flex more because the thinner spokes stretch more. Stretch in engineering terms is called strain and is measured as in/in or mm/mm. Anyway, if the berd rope has less strain, then the the rope will stretch less and result in actually less flex.

    But a stiff rim changes the way a wheel flexes. A lightweight aluminum rim will bend when it flexes, whereas a stiff carbon rim will resist bending and rotate laterally around the hub which may in some cases result in a wheel that flexes more depending on where you are taking your measurements.

    Since carbon rims are generally much stiffer than aluminum rims they will be much stiffer vertically as long as the spokes remain in tension. Since aluminum rims can more easily bend at a single area they can allow the spoke tension to drop in that area, whereas a carbon rim has a greater ability to remain round under load and activate all spokes together.
    I'd like to add that the flex of aluminum rims on a decent wheel build may not be detectable by many riders (including me). Some of my friends who are crazy amateur podium sorts of people can tell the difference but honestly, I can't.

    During a wheel build, I definitely notice there are more "nuances" (in a smaller area) to maintaining trueness with aluminum rims but once they are built, they hold up quite well- similar to carbon for me (I've hit staircases in addition to rocks, roots and dirt with all of them).

    The downside with a Berd build is that it takes more time for sure. I was quite surprised that the spokes all settled in with a consistent number of threads showing. Somehow I had it in my mind that the spoke stretch/strain would be more variable with non-rigid material.

    Another factor on the build side is the size of the hub flange. I run Chris King large diameter (LD) 15mm 29er front hubs (short spokes 284mm) with 135mm rear hubs on ~50% of bikes in my stable and DT 240s's for most of the remainder (including the Berd build).

    I'm hoping to have a pro friend ride my Berd wheel set at some point (now that race season is over) and see what he thinks. My "amateur+" friends are in two camps: super light builds with bladed spokes are "the only way" (never been my thing). The other camp seems obsessed with stiffness... 35mm+ rims with big straight spokes (and I9 hubs that need ~yearly bearing replacements lol). I don't have much dental work but prefer something with a little forgiveness.

    Some in both camps are convinced that I am going to have a catastrophic failure with the Berd build. I've given up on trying to convince them otherwise. I recently rode in the Michaux, PA Terror of Teaberry event on them and my body took almost a week to recover. Wheel set was no worse for the wear.
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  167. #167
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    Mike, did you grind or drill the spoke holes like they recommend prior to lacing? Seems like somewhat of a drawback if it will potentially void a hub warranty. Thoughts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dustyduke22 View Post
    Mike, did you grind or drill the spoke holes like they recommend prior to lacing? Seems like somewhat of a drawback if it will potentially void a hub warranty. Thoughts?

    The first set (that this thread is based on) I did have to massage the spoke holes somewhat.

    Berd's processes have evolved substantially since then, such that each successive set has needed less massaging. Last set I basically chamfered the edges of the spoke holes -- polished might be a better word -- just so that there were no sharp edges that could damage the spoke fabric. Didn't feel remotely necessary.

  169. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    The first set (that this thread is based on) I did have to massage the spoke holes somewhat.

    Berd's processes have evolved substantially since then, such that each successive set has needed less massaging. Last set I basically chamfered the edges of the spoke holes -- polished might be a better word -- just so that there were no sharp edges that could damage the spoke fabric. Didn't feel remotely necessary.
    Thanks Mike. Did you just use the bit they provide or something else?
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  170. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by dustyduke22 View Post
    Thanks Mike. Did you just use the bit they provide or something else?

    I was ~3 sets in before they started providing a bit. I used something out of one of those million piece dremel kits for the first few. Cork and conical IIRC.

  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by edubfromktown View Post
    Finally started rolling on a new set of wheels with Berd spokes. Built them up with DT Swiss 240s hubs, Nextie NXT29UL30 offset hole rims and Sapim brass nipples.
    Hey! Cool built!
    And what weights did you get for the front/rear/overall?
    Why did you use the Brass nipples and not aluminum ones?

  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade Sukhov View Post
    Hey! Cool built!
    And what weights did you get for the front/rear/overall?
    Why did you use the Brass nipples and not aluminum ones?
    Thanks...

    Rear wheel came in @675g (with freehub and end caps attached). I don't recall the weight of the front. I built them for the dampening qualities more than anything else (and not a super weight weenie sort of person either).

    I only use brass nipples anymore- particularly with carbon hoops. Less corrosion potential than aluminum nipples when moisture (inevitably) gets in there.

    I used the Dremel-style bit that Berd provided to chamfer the spoke holes. Felt somewhat unnatural to go at a set of brand new DT 240 hubs with it but better that than wonder about spoke fabric damage later down the road.

    I've ridden these wheels on all four of my 29er's (plus CX/gravel bike) and ran them on my Scott RC 930 for one MTB race. Been awesome so far.
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  173. #173
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    And what is the procedure? One have to contact Berd - and they will calculate the needed lengths (depending on the hubs, rims and lacing pattern) and then would sell them to the client? Or...?

  174. #174
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    Had no idea about these spokes until I found a link on Outside Mag...also mentioning Mike C. in the article. Seriously considering sending my rims and hubs out to these guys for a wheelset build. Not sure how much better they would be than traditional for an i36 carbon rim running 3" tires. Feedback would be great!

    Article 3/4 way down the page, under best cycling gear tested....
    https://www.outsideonline.com/237806...we-tested-year

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  175. #175
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    i36 carbon is what I built them for that test.

  176. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    i36 carbon is what I built them for that test.
    Thanks!

    Still considering the cost side of it...$$$
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  177. #177
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    If I was building new wheels, I'd be using the Berd spokes for sure.

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  178. #178
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    I briefly got excited by this new Berd wheel rebuild sale. Then I sat down and had a talk with myself about spending $595 to save 100g (but....but...rotating weight !).

    For some reason its easier to justify if you are building a new wheelset, even though the wheelset I'd upgrade is as good as new and the cost was absorbed a long time ago.

    Just a mental game I guess.

  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    had a talk with myself about spending $595 to save 100g

    100g per wheel for most people. Which is substantial.

    I like them more for the level of compliance that they add to a wheel. As my body continues to fall apart I can't quite keep up with the need to make things more compliant.

  180. #180
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    Sapim Laser 262 mm with nipple 4.7 grams
    BERD Poly Light 265 mm with nipple 2.7 grams
    So for my build it would be a savings of 112 grams for the set.
    My current set is 1090 grams with Extralite Hubs Laser spokes and 295 gram carbon rims.
    I may be cool to say my wheels are 978 grams but not for $600.
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  181. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    100g per wheel for most people. Which is substantial.

    I like them more for the level of compliance that they add to a wheel. As my body continues to fall apart I can't quite keep up with the need to make things more compliant.
    It was also a good excuse to lace up a set of new hubs sitting on the shelf that I knew would easily swap between SS, 9-10 and 11 speed. I didn't go with Berd spokes for the weight saving aspects so much as trying a different sort of build and I guess the "weirdness factor" too.

    Some of my riding cronies still think there will be some catastrophic taco fail because of the spoke material...
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  182. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by edubfromktown View Post

    Some of my riding cronies still think there will be some catastrophic taco fail because of the spoke material...
    And how do you feel in that respect, compared to your traditionally built wheels?...


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  183. #183
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    Just checking in to add one more data point: No news is good news. Put differently, I have nothing new to say about them, they just keep ticking along. I've had this wheelset on 4 different bikes now, ridden all over the mountain west from low desert to high alpine. I check tension on them every few weeks to ensure things are staying put. But I haven't had to put a wrench to them yet. Sort of impressive given that I've had them on a 170/150mm 29+ FS bike for the past ~8 months, and my backyard trails ain't buff.

  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    I briefly got excited by this new Berd wheel rebuild sale. Then I sat down and had a talk with myself about spending $595 to save 100g (but....but...rotating weight !).

    For some reason its easier to justify if you are building a new wheelset, even though the wheelset I'd upgrade is as good as new and the cost was absorbed a long time ago.

    Just a mental game I guess.
    Yeah, if your wheelset currently has CX-Rays or Aerolites it's really hard to justify the upgrade. If someone laced fancy rims and hubs with 14/15s they could more easily see the logic in a rebuild. (but then why would they have used 14/15s in the first place?)
    This is really only an option for new builds.
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  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    Yeah, if your wheelset currently has CX-Rays or Aerolites it's really hard to justify the upgrade.

    If you're talking strictly dollars and grams, ok.

    If you factor in ride quality, I think the Berd's are still worth it. I feel lots of braking windup with Aerolites, and CX-Rays just plain ride harsh.

    Probably more noticeable on a hardtail. I'm riding Berd's on a 170/150 bike with 29 x 3" tires, and I still feel the difference and think it's worth the $$$.

    But we're all different.

  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just J View Post
    And how do you feel in that respect, compared to your traditionally built wheels?...


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    No different in how I treat them compared to other wheel sets. I built up a set of Light Bicycle carbon wheels back in ~2012 and heard from Stan's employees (at an MTB event) and others that I was going to die That wheel set is still going strong (with lots of nice rock scratches on the hoops and all).

    This past summer I rode the Berd wheel set in the most technical MTB race that I've ever participated in without hesitation. Wheels were no worse for the wear. My body on the other hand took ~5 days to recover from all the gut busting punchy climbs and rocky shakin goin on LOL.
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  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by edubfromktown View Post
    No different in how I treat them compared to other wheel sets. I built up a set of Light Bicycle carbon wheels back in ~2012 and heard from Stan's employees (at an MTB event) and others that I was going to die That wheel set is still going strong (with lots of nice rock scratches on the hoops and all).

    This past summer I rode the Berd wheel set in the most technical MTB race that I've ever participated in without hesitation. Wheels were no worse for the wear. My body on the other hand took ~5 days to recover from all the gut busting punchy climbs and rocky shakin goin on LOL.
    LOL that's good to know, thanks! I also ran a couple of sets of LB's with zero issues.

  188. #188
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    [QUOTE=mikesee;13966364]If you're talking strictly dollars and grams, ok.

    If you factor in ride quality, I think the Berd's are still worth it. I feel lots of braking windup with Aerolites, and CX-Rays just plain ride harsh.

    QUOTE]

    how could cx rays ride differently than aerolites? aren't they essentially the same spoke (dimensions) made by 2 different companies?

  189. #189
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    If I was building new wheels I'd use the Berd spokes.

    That said I have 2 year used wheels with CX Rays and I literally just received yesterday an $87 box of spare spokes for them as I keep breaking them. Just too old of a wheel set with too much already invested in spokes to make a change at this time.

  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    If I was building new wheels I'd use the Berd spokes.

    That said I have 2 year used wheels with CX Rays and I literally just received yesterday an $87 box of spare spokes for them as I keep breaking them. Just too old of a wheel set with too much already invested in spokes to make a change at this time.




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  191. #191
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    I would have liked to have buy the spokes and do a build myself, sending rims.hubs to the US with the thought of then having to pay even more on importation puts the cost up too much. Also the fact that you can only get the black spokes on their own builds and not sold sepertely is another factor at the moment.

  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by peabody View Post
    how could cx rays ride differently than aerolites? aren't they essentially the same spoke (dimensions) made by 2 different companies?

    I'll leave it to an enginerd to explain *how*.

    I'll just leave it at "they do".

  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    You could replace them all for less than the cost of replacements. Just sayin.
    Doing it myself I presume you mean?

    I've never built wheels and am darn busy. But maybe some day.

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  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by poynt View Post
    Also the fact that you can only get the black spokes on their own builds and not sold sepertely is another factor at the moment.
    Oh, blacks spokes are already available? Any photos? I couldn't find examples on their web site.

  195. #195
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    This was in an email I got from Berd just 3 days ago, make of it what you will.

    "We are piloting black spokes at the moment, but we are not offering them commercially yet. I still recommend white as this is the natural color of the material, whereas the black coating can chip/fade over time. "

  196. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I'll leave it to an enginerd to explain *how*.

    I'll just leave it at "they do".
    Actually looking at the specs of both spokes on their sites, the cx ray has about 4% less cross sectional area in the bladed portion .9mmx2.2mm vs .9mmx2.3mm. They should perform the exact opposite of what you are feeling. If you can even feel a difference.

  197. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by peabody View Post
    Actually looking at the specs of both spokes on their sites, the cx ray has about 4% less cross sectional area in the bladed portion .9mmx2.2mm vs .9mmx2.3mm. They should perform the exact opposite of what you are feeling. If you can even feel a difference.

    I've already told you that I can, and I've explained what I feel.

    It's been a minute since I did this, but I laced a few sets of wheels for my XC bike. All same hubs, same rims, same tires run in the same orientation at same pressures. Only the spokes were different, although tensions were more or less identical.

    CX-Rays, Aerolites, Rev's, and SuperComps were the 4 options tested.

  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by peabody View Post
    Actually looking at the specs of both spokes on their sites, the cx ray has about 4% less cross sectional area in the bladed portion .9mmx2.2mm vs .9mmx2.3mm. They should perform the exact opposite of what you are feeling. If you can even feel a difference.
    I donít have any (pain in the arse IMO) CX bladed spokes but among all the straight, double and triple butted spoke wheels I have, the Berd setup feels different.

    Sort of felt like riding on thin carpet with the added dampening from the spokes when I first ran them. Now, I donít notice it as much when I swap that wheel set on or off one of my bikes.

    If you want another rabbit hole mind bender to consider: which lacing pattern?

    2/3 cross is what I did (An oldie but goodie thread https://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires...ss-694623.html).


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  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by edubfromktown View Post
    I donít have any (pain in the arse IMO) CX bladed spokes but among all the straight, double and triple butted spoke wheels I have, the Berd setup feels different.

    Sort of felt like riding on thin carpet with the added dampening from the spokes when I first ran them. Now, I donít notice it as much when I swap that wheel set on or off one of my bikes.

    If you want another rabbit hole mind bender to consider: which lacing pattern?

    2/3 cross is what I did (An oldie but goodie thread https://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires...ss-694623.html).


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    I got that reply from Charlie as well. I see Pi-Rope are doing a black build now, obviously different material but can see it looks nicer than white

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