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Thread: Berd spokes.

  1. #201
    MarkyMark
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    I was interested in trying the Berd spokes on a couple wheelsets with DT Swiss 240 & 190 hubs. I emailed them about 3 weeks ago and never got a response.

    My wheels are fine so I saved myself ~$1200. Oh well.

  2. #202
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    Interesting....I emailed them about 3 weeks ago concerning their wheel rebuild program and the guy emailed me right back a couple of times and was trying to close the deal... Seemed eager enough. Sometimes things just get dropped I guess.

  3. #203
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    I have not had any problems contacting them.........Our shop just sent them five wheelsets to be built.
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  4. #204
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    The bike industry is funny. It's a relatively expensive recreation/hobby that I really enjoy. I generally go for high-end products and am willing to pay for it, but I won't beg or plead.

    For example, I was a happy customer of Push Industries and had a fork and shock serviced by them. I asked Push about sending them another fork and they never responded. I moved on and haven't used them since.

    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    Interesting....I emailed them about 3 weeks ago concerning their wheel rebuild program and the guy emailed me right back a couple of times and was trying to close the deal... Seemed eager enough. Sometimes things just get dropped I guess.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkMass View Post
    The bike industry is funny. It's a relatively expensive recreation/hobby that I really enjoy. I generally go for high-end products and am willing to pay for it, but I won't beg or plead.

    For example, I was a happy customer of Push Industries and had a fork and shock serviced by them. I asked Push about sending them another fork and they never responded. I moved on and haven't used them since.
    So, would you say every time you asked your mama for a cookie, she gave you one, or did you sometimes have to ask a second time?
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  6. #206
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    Was the DIY thread deleted?

    So tired of snapping Sapims every other week and looking for alternatives.

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  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Was the DIY thread deleted?

    So tired of snapping Sapims every other week and looking for alternatives.

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    because enough information was on it to appear like patent infringement... so shut down to make that go away. no one wants a piece of a patent lawsuit. mtbr included.

    there still may be someone out there doing DIY but not on these boards
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  8. #208
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    Did the price come down on these yet?


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  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Did the price come down on these yet?


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    No..........
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  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    each spoke itself can 'inhale' if you will, dust dirt and water, and each individual spoke will see different levels of this

    Before tensioning, I agree -- they can retain some dirt, dust, dye, or liquids.

    Once tensioned to any reasonable % of what people tension wheels to these days, no.

    Tension pulls the weave of the fabric tight, locking the fabric against intrusion.

  11. #211
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    Just mailed the guys at Berd some new Carbon Fan rims and Project 321 hubs I had obtained for another project that didn't work out.

    It's the same hubs that I currently use on my Nobls, however the rims are a bit different and of course the spokes are different as they will be Berds (from Sapims on my Nobls). Trying to limit the variables for a back to back comparison but not sure that's entirely possible. The new build may or may not end up with identical tires. It appears that I'm going to save a solid .75# of rotating weight (the rims themselves are lighter as well) which will be nice. Of course lighter hubs are available but I didn't feel the lighter options were appropriate for Enduro usage so I stuck with what I know to work.

    As far as the earlier comments about them being unresponsive to emails, I suspect something got lost in a spam folder or otherwise, because in my case they have been very responsive to both emails and phone calls.

    Will update in about 1 month.
    Last edited by Suns_PSD; 08-20-2019 at 03:49 PM.

  12. #212
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    I only got my hubs and rims to Charlie at Berd late last week.

    They usually take about 2 weeks for a build, but since I'm getting black spokes they told me to expect 3 weeks before the wheels ship back to me.

    The cost seems fair to me as long as the product lasts me years. $595 for black Berd spokes including shipping back to me is maybe $250 more than I'd spend on high end steel spokes I'm thinking.

    It sounds like Berd is busy, I gathered they were doing a lot of these currently. Not sure if they lace them and then let wheels sit for a period of time and then re-tension and that adds to the length of the build process or what?

    I did ask if they could shrink wrap the very bottom where the spoke is joined to the fabric to make it look more finished, they said 'no'. Oh well.

    They are understandably reluctant to answer tons of detailed questions about their methodology and decisions since they want to sell product, not help others replicate their work. But when I was pursing other colors I did ask why they couldn't use any color of UEMPH (or whatever its called) since the stuff is readily available in many colors and they indicated to me that there is a specific reason they don't use that material.

    I'm pretty confident that they have a well tested product and I hope to update in about 4 more weeks.

  13. #213
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    I'm not big on colors- spokes or (brass) nipples... black Berd's do sound cool

    I'd imagine Berd laces the wheels and lets them sit before re-tensioning (as recommended) so that would add some time to the build for sure. They should last for a long time...

    My plain old non-colored/white spoke build is still going strong after a number of trail hours on dirt/rocks/roots plus a few work commutes and gravel rides (on different bikes in my stable).

    The spokes pickup some dirt here and there but it comes off easily on the few occasions that I selectively hose off my bike. I'm curious if the black color with chip off or is the material dyed black.
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  14. #214
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    Berd spokes.

    I've been on a loaner wheelset of Reynolds TR6 hubs laced with white Berd spokes to Chinese 30mm superlight carbon rims, and have 2+ months and 643 miles on them, on my Yeti SB100. I've ridden them very hard, including some very rocky and chunky stuff and have to say, I love the Berds, and am going to miss them. The white color, which I didn't like at first, has really grown on me, and I genuinely like how sharp the wheels look, and how they look on the bike. They contribute to a very light wheelset which spins up rapidly, and an amazingly compliant ride. And every spoke is just as taut as the day I picked up the bike. I've had nothing but a positive experience with them, and will likely pay the price for them in the future.
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  15. #215
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    They really get glowing reviews from all around, not one bad one. No breakage, nothing, a year in.

    It made sense to go with them at the price point and with how proven they are.

    Mine will not be a WW build, but will be pretty WW for an Enduro capable wheel set and all in I'm going to save some real weight over my current NOBL wheels. Plus the ride improvements.

    Pretty excited about them really.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    They really get glowing reviews from all around, not one bad one. No breakage, nothing, a year in.

    It made sense to go with them at the price point and with how proven they are.

    Mine will not be a WW build, but will be pretty WW for an Enduro capable wheel set and all in I'm going to save some real weight over my current NOBL wheels. Plus the ride improvements.

    Pretty excited about them really.
    Thatís awesome! Canít wait to see how they look!


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  17. #217
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    Just got word that my BERD/ CarbonFan/ Project 321 wheels are completed and shipping back to me today. They told me 3 weeks and knocked it out in about 2. No complaints there.

    I'll update with first photos and weights next week and ride reports and reliability experiences after that.

  18. #218
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    1480 grams for the pair with non-WW hubs and a DH layup rear rim and a 33mm ID front.
    Finish is impeccable.

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  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    1480 grams for the pair with non-WW hubs and a DH layup rear rim and a 33mm ID front.
    Finish is impeccable.

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    Nice. Look forward to hearing more.

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  20. #220
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    Using the same model hubs as my Nobl TR36s. These are CarbonFan rims with the Berds.
    I saved approximately 350g! The exact amount was hard to determine as I made several changes at once.
    I then added in an insert (+72g tubolight), swapped to a heavy slower rolling front tire (+100g) so my net weight loss was closer to 180g.
    I did a test ride with the old tires and I could instantly feel the weight difference, the bike spun up so quickly. Then I swapped to a pretty piggish front tire (MSC gripper) and it slowed the bike right down to where I started but at least I'll have great front traction. I struggled last weekend with front traction on some Enduro lines with a front Eliminator so was looking to change.
    I love the shape of the front tire on the 34mm ID wheel. Perfect roundness. The rear tire (2.35 Rock Razor) on a 29mm ID is a bit flat for my taste and I would consider a 27-28mm rear width rim if doing it again.
    Doing a little trail ride with the wife tomorrow for a shake down run, then headed to a little lift assisted bike park on Sunday to break them in proper.
    I like to weigh my bike when I make a change in it's ready to ride condition which includes: bash guard, pedals, all of my tools and pump, Avy fork cartridge,and 2 wheel inserts, and the bike weighs 30#s on the dot which is incredible. It's honestly a 27# Enduro bike if I weighed it bare as most do. And being a Large Mondraker it's as large as most XLs. Berd spokes.-20190918_181010.jpg

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    Last edited by Suns_PSD; 09-19-2019 at 05:23 AM.

  21. #221
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    Also I need to give a shout out to Berd's packaging. Included in their cost was two seperate boxes taped together, each wheel packaged nicely, a bike water bottle branded 'Berd'. Several spare spokes, a custom tool, and a spec sheet.
    All very nice.
    I imagined the wheels were going to look a little home built but they look very professional, even, and flawless. Impressed.

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  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Also I need to give a shout out to Berd's packaging. Included in their cost was two seperate boxes taped together, each wheel packaged nicely, a bike water bottle branded 'Berd'. Several spare spokes, a custom tool, and a spec sheet.
    All very nice.
    I imagined the wheels were going to look a little home built but they look very professional, even, and flawless. Impressed.

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    Can you show a close up of the spoke connection at the nipple?

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  23. #223
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    Sure.

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  24. #224
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    Nailed it! Really happy with the set up overall but need more real ride time on it to really know.

    Just did a short XC loop with the wife this afternoon with just a handful of rock gardens and the trail felt so muted that I checked my front tire air pressure a few times. That high frequency chattery feeling you get when your flying down a XC trail at a good rate of speed was just missing. In a way it felt like I was going slow but I was not. The front tire was hooking up super well which I'd love to give credit to my 28 spoke front end for, but realistically moving to a grippier tire was most certainly the culprit.

    Really nothing else to report except to say the bike felt like it got up to speed real easily and that even in late September it's just too darn hot/ humid in Central Texas.

  25. #225
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    Any chance the spokes can fray at the connection point?

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  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by bogeydog View Post
    Any chance the spokes can fray at the connection point?

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    I think being fabric, they absolutely can fray everywhere on their length.
    Am I worried about them fraying to the point where they are damaged or broken? Nope.
    That said I'll use caution with them.

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  27. #227
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    they won't crack from rock scratch propagation like metal spokes often do...huge advantage to overall lifetime
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  28. #228
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    Knocked out 9 fast miles on the Austin greenbelt using these new wheels. The greenbelt is very chunky.
    Very nice ride quality from these wheels. A real pleasure to ride.
    Even with a draggy front tire the wheels spin up quite fast.
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    Last edited by Suns_PSD; 09-20-2019 at 06:39 AM.

  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    they won't crack from rock scratch propagation like metal spokes often do...huge advantage to overall lifetime
    A couple months ago I nicked/frayed the outer covering on one of the Berd spokes on an off angle flying rock hit. Still holds tension just fine and I'm not replacing unless tension or trueness go sideways

    Had occasional issues with conventional spokes over the years (on old wheel sets with steel spokes- straight, double and triple butted):

    My wife snapped a triple ~2" from the hub (still don't know how she managed that!), I've snapped a few at the j-bend and had issues with straight spokes mounted on Stan's Flow rims at the nipple interface side. On that wheel, replacing the fancy colored aluminum nipples with brass resolved that issue.

    No matter the spoke material, I still prefer 32 hole so that if one or even two adjacent spokes fail, you can ride out. Some of my friends with 28 and 24 spoke wheels had to do the walk of shame due to excessive tire rub when a single (conventional spoke- most often bladed!) failed.
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  30. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    they won't crack from rock scratch propagation like metal spokes often do...huge advantage to overall lifetime
    Often?
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  31. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Often?
    If you nick a spoke...

    often those nicked spokes will end up busting where the nick is

    rocks, where the rock nicked it
    chain between cassette and spokes, any of the nicked spokes

    I am not saying 'spoke nicks happen often',
    I am saying 'nicked spokes often break'...because ...metal fatigue and stress points from the area that is nicked

    steel takes a while aluminum takes less time,

    berd or dyneema can take damage and it doesn't propagate to other fibers
    you'd have to try harder than just tossing the bike into the rocks to bust one

    and I haven't seen it nor done it but imagine chain drop into berd spokes, they might come out of it just fine, just smudgier and a little furry
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  32. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    If you nick a spoke...

    often those nicked spokes will end up busting where the nick is

    rocks, where the rock nicked it
    chain between cassette and spokes, any of the nicked spokes

    I am not saying 'spoke nicks happen often',
    I am saying 'nicked spokes often break'...because ...metal fatigue and stress points from the area that is nicked

    steel takes a while aluminum takes less time,

    berd or dyneema can take damage and it doesn't propagate to other fibers
    you'd have to try harder than just tossing the bike into the rocks to bust one

    and I haven't seen it nor done it but imagine chain drop into berd spokes, they might come out of it just fine, just smudgier and a little furry
    my takeaway here is:

    a nick to aluminum or steel reduces the amount of steel or aluminum that is tensioned, thereby reducing the tensile strength of the spoke.
    a nick to dyneema does not reduce the amount of dyneema that is tensioned, and the spoke's tensile strength remains the same?

  33. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc_worm View Post
    my takeaway here is:

    a nick to aluminum or steel reduces the amount of steel or aluminum that is tensioned, thereby reducing the tensile strength of the spoke.
    a nick to dyneema does not reduce the amount of dyneema that is tensioned, and the spoke's tensile strength remains the same?
    sure you lose tensile strength in all forms of spokes with any bit of damage, but flexing damaged metal spokes, they -will- end up breaking sooner or later. tension or no tension. if a berd spoke survives the initial [whatever damage] it's gonna stay at that level of damage no matter how much you keep riding, unless you damage it more by some slicing or cutting action

    if you nick metal, even the tiniest amount, you create a place it can spread cracks, eventually breaking

    if you nick a berd spoke, all that is affected is the fibers you sliced at the time, and since the strength of dyneema is overkill in spades for a bike wheel, you'd really have to slice the bejeesus out of it to affect wheel integrity. I don't see how that can happen with a typical eva into a pile of rocks, which can kill metal spokes lifetime easily

    I can see how berd spokes can easily get 'furry' in their lifetime and use, but to actually become damaged enough to matter ? not with typical bike riding and wipeouts [unless you damage the chinese handcuff part]


    dyneema is ridiculously strong and it can be pretty 'furry' and still outclass the strongest comparable steel spoke
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  34. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    sure you lose tensile strength in all forms of spokes with any bit of damage, but flexing damaged metal spokes, they -will- end up breaking sooner or later. tension or no tension. if a berd spoke survives the initial [whatever damage] it's gonna stay at that level of damage no matter how much you keep riding, unless you damage it more by some slicing or cutting action

    if you nick metal, even the tiniest amount, you create a place it can spread cracks, eventually breaking

    if you nick a berd spoke, all that is affected is the fibers you sliced at the time, and since the strength of dyneema is overkill in spades for a bike wheel, you'd really have to slice the bejeesus out of it to affect wheel integrity. I don't see how that can happen with a typical eva into a pile of rocks, which can kill metal spokes lifetime easily

    I can see how berd spokes can easily get 'furry' in their lifetime and use, but to actually become damaged enough to matter ? not with typical bike riding and wipeouts [unless you damage the chinese handcuff part]


    dyneema is ridiculously strong and it can be pretty 'furry' and still outclass the strongest comparable steel spoke
    theoretically, i hear what you are saying. also, theoretically, my bet is that the steel/aluminum spoke failure is secondary to the reduced ability to carry tension and not to flexing.

  35. #235
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    I bought an SB100 back in June (non-carbon wheels), and ordered I9 Hydra hubs for a custom carbon wheelset. Because the Hydras were backordered, my LBS gave me a loaner carbon wheelset - brand new Chinese carbon 30mm hoops laced to Reynolds TR6 hubs with Berd spokes. Super, super lightweight. I put 692 miles on these wheels, and really, really enjoyed the ride - seemed to spin up very quickly, and the ride was very supple. Now, mind you, I'd never ridden the SB100 without this wheelset, so to me, that was just how the bike rode, but it was hard to quantify exactly what the wheels contributed.

    My hubs FINALLY came in last week, and I picked up the new wheelset earlier this week - I9 Hydras laced to the same Chinese carbon 30mm hoops with the "usual" spokes. Did my first ride on them this morning, on trails I've ridden a zillion times. I didn't really notice the weight difference (at least 200 g in the spokes alone), but I definitely noticed a "stiffer", more jarring ride. The Berds dampen trail chatter and vibration, and I could definitely feel that was increased. The Hydras were amazing...man, did I miss that engagement. I've got Torches on two other bikes, and they sound like a rattlesnake, but the Hydras sound like a bunch of angry wasps. Very cool..

    Anyway, I am considering sending these brand-new wheels into Berd to have them rebuilt with Berds. I miss that suppleness of ride that much...
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  36. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by edubfromktown View Post
    No matter the spoke material, I still prefer 32 hole so that if one or even two adjacent spokes fail, you can ride out. Some of my friends with 28 and 24 spoke wheels had to do the walk of shame due to excessive tire rub when a single (conventional spoke- most often bladed!) failed.
    I choose 28 spokes up front not to save weight (the Berd's only weigh like 2.3 grams each anyways) but in an attempt to get lateral compliance up front for better traction and line holding. Also knowing that the wider box section front rim I was running (compared to the more narrow rear) would naturally be stiffer. Of course the amount of relative compliance was just a WAG, but I was trying to sort of copy the Synthesis wheels but with Berds. It certainly didn't save any money! Anyways, CF wheels shouldn't go out of true just losing one spoke, even on a 28H. Besides it certainly won't rub on the front. I have 32H in the rear plus a DH layup rim so not too worried.

    These new wheels really do ride nicely on rough trails. They seem to have no history of failures even under big DHers. I do a few 15-20' jumps and 4-5' drops but am not some super shredder however I need them to hold up to that usage. I had pretty much arrived at running tire inserts front and rear already but with these wheels costing me so much and being more complicated to relace, I won't take any chances. They will always have Tubolights or Pepi's front and rear.

    One set of NOBL TR36s with P321s for sale!

    Really don't get why all but 1 wheel manufacturer is producing their front and rear wheels to be identical when each end of the bike has such different requirements for optimum performance.

  37. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    ...Really don't get why all but 1 wheel manufacturer is producing their front and rear wheels to be identical...
    They all better have different f/r hubs and different dish. And they often have different spoke counts. What's the same are the rims...except perhaps for the number of holes.
    Do the math.

  38. #238
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    I suppose I don't consider different hubs relevant, just a requirement for the freewheel.
    Besides Crank Bros, every brand of modern wheels uses the same layup, the same width, and the same # of spokes front to rear when at this point it's common knowledge that: 1) due to less weight on the front it needs a more aggressive and wider tire/ rim, whereas 2) the rear needs a faster rolling more narrow tire/ rim because that's where most of the rolling resistance comes from and with more weight on it traction is higher anyways, and 3) most broken rims occur in the rear so comparatively the rear should be a heavier layup, and 4) pedal power is transferred to the rear so it should have more lateral stability to efficiently transfer energy, whereas 5) the front should have less comparative lateral stability to track better as it steers and naturally has less weight on it.
    There is a legitimate reason why all tire nerds run different tires front to rear and those same reasons should be reflected in the rims they chose.
    Now that bike geo has gotten so much better the manufacturers will look at other ways to improve their stock builds and this would be an easy place to start.

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  39. #239
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    Cost of manufacturing, you are having to do things by a factor of two once you start using different rims for front and rear wheelsets. You are better off as a consumer mixing and matching on your own. If the industry thinks they can make more money doing this, then they are going to and pass the cost on to you, the consumer. You have already been able to buy the same width F/R rims with different layups and different width/different layups. Virtually all carbon rim producers offer this. They make rims for the most part. Wheel manufacturers on the other hand are more into economy of scale and cranking out OEM wheels for bikes, that's where the $$ is, and I'm sure the same F/R rims is part of controlling their costs.

    There always were options, you just bought a different front and rear wheel, that made your "wheelset". That they should "match" as far as brand and look is just vanity/aesthetics.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  40. #240
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    I need a refresher: On a 29" 32 spoke wheelset how much weight do these save over CX-Ray spokes?
    Keep the Country country.

  41. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    I need a refresher: On a 29" 32 spoke wheelset how much weight do these save over CX-Ray spokes?
    Approx 128g

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  42. #242
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    8 'deep compression events' and about 12 seconds in the air according to ShockWiz on my ride today and the Berds nor wheels appear no worse for the wear.
    Bike felt great and a good bit less chattery.

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  43. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    I need a refresher: On a 29" 32 spoke wheelset how much weight do these save over CX-Ray spokes?
    Weight of 1 Berd and weight of one CX-Ray (which is about 1 gram lighter than a standard spoke).



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  44. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Weight of 1 Berd and weight of one CX-Ray (which is about 1 gram lighter than a standard spoke).



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    My spokes are 6g each, and my wheels are 28-hole. Factoring Berds at 2g, that is 4g x 56 spokes (front and rear), for a total savings of 224g. Even if the Berds were 2.5g each, thatís a savings of 196g. The suppleness of the ride is a bonus.


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  45. #245
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    A half pound rotating is quite a bit. I saved more just because I went with different rims and had more spokes as well.

    I think Berd is a no brainer for a new wheel build as you barely spend any extra anyways on custom wheels.

    On existing wheels there is more to consider.

    So happy with my new wheels!

  46. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    If you nick a spoke...

    often those nicked spokes will end up busting where the nick is

    rocks, where the rock nicked it
    chain between cassette and spokes, any of the nicked spokes

    I am not saying 'spoke nicks happen often',
    I am saying 'nicked spokes often break'...because ...metal fatigue and stress points from the area that is nicked

    steel takes a while aluminum takes less time,

    berd or dyneema can take damage and it doesn't propagate to other fibers
    you'd have to try harder than just tossing the bike into the rocks to bust one

    and I haven't seen it nor done it but imagine chain drop into berd spokes, they might come out of it just fine, just smudgier and a little furry
    I don't get overly concerned about nicking spokes... tends to happen more often on my rear wheels because I am running wider tires that do no leave much room for rocks, sticks, etc. to pass between the tire and chain stays when they get kicked up on occasion. None of those dings have caused any spokes to fail on a number of wheel sets (some of which have been rolling for over a decade).

    I nicked one Berd front wheel spoke. It lost some tension and is fine (I added enough tension back to true the wheel).
    【ツ】 eDub 【ツ】

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  47. #247
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    I nicked two i9 spokes in a get-off into a rock wall

    one busted in 10 rides the other in 5 more rides...trivial to replace but those i9 aluminum spokes are not happy with slight damage. of course not smacking into rocks is cool too.
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  48. #248
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    I decided to send my new wheelset out to Berd to have it rebuilt with Berds - 30mm Chinese carbon hoops and I9 Hydra hubs. Placed the order for a rebuild in their online store yesterday morning; Charlie responded this morning (<24hours) with the tracking number for the boxes (I'm having them send me the boxes and label to ship my wheels to them). Prior to this, I had emailed with a couple questions, and received responses either immediately or within 24 hours. Really looking forward to these!
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  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    I decided to send my new wheelset out to Berd to have it rebuilt with Berds - 30mm Chinese carbon hoops and I9 Hydra hubs. Placed the order for a rebuild in their online store yesterday morning; Charlie responded this morning (<24hours) with the tracking number for the boxes (I'm having them send me the boxes and label to ship my wheels to them). Prior to this, I had emailed with a couple questions, and received responses either immediately or within 24 hours. Really looking forward to these!
    Nice! Keep us posted.

    Do you mind sharing how much it cost for the spokes and rebuild?


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  50. #250
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    $595, includes both wheels and shipping back to you.

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  51. #251
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    Suns PSD - Do you know what your bare rim weights were ? What about the hubs ?

    You hit an impressive weight target with those wheels, so I'm curious just how heavy the bare parts were so I can figure out my own deal will be.

  52. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    Suns PSD - Do you know what your bare rim weights were ? What about the hubs ?

    You hit an impressive weight target with those wheels, so I'm curious just how heavy the bare parts were so I can figure out my own deal will be.
    Rear rim bare was 425g, front rim bare was 422g.
    The rear rim is a downhill layup, where the front wheel is an all mountain layup. However as the front all mountain layup is 5 mm wider, that's where the additional weight comes from making them so close.

    I didn't weigh the hubs as they shipped directly to Berd but P321 lists the weights as 168 g & 282g.
    Last edited by Suns_PSD; 09-29-2019 at 09:36 AM.

  53. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    I decided to send my new wheelset out to Berd to have it rebuilt with Berds - 30mm Chinese carbon hoops and I9 Hydra hubs. Placed the order for a rebuild in their online store yesterday morning; Charlie responded this morning (<24hours) with the tracking number for the boxes (I'm having them send me the boxes and label to ship my wheels to them). Prior to this, I had emailed with a couple questions, and received responses either immediately or within 24 hours. Really looking forward to these!
    Nice... I went with pricer Nextie NXT29UL30 offset hole rims built on DT240s hubs and they've been awesome.
    【ツ】 eDub 【ツ】

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  54. #254
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    My rear Berd rim has settled or moved or whatever and is 1-2mm out of true in one spot. It's a result of a day at Spider mountain with some jumps, Black diamond drops, and what not. It's not critical and doesn't rub or anything but once I finish off this tire in another few weeks I'll have it re-trued by my local shop.

    I must say there was a distinct feeling in a few spots when I would land from a jump and there was lots of weight on the rear wheel and I was leaned that it felt 'different'. I suspect it was just laterally flexing a bit. Whatever, still loving these wheels.

  55. #255
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    Due to the nature of the spoke interface, I assume it can only be trued/tightened from the backside with the tire off ?

  56. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    Due to the nature of the spoke interface, I assume it can only be trued/tightened from the backside with the tire off ?

    Nope -- possible to true from "outside", with tire still in place.

  57. #257
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    My local shop trued it for me from the outside and it was barely off. Most of what I was seeing was wobble in the tire, not the wheel.


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  58. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by edubfromktown View Post
    Nice... I went with pricer Nextie NXT29UL30 offset hole rims built on DT240s hubs and they've been awesome.
    That's a scary light rim!

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  59. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    That's a scary light rim!

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    Theyíve been bombproof for my just under 200 lb jolly old self.

    Iíve ridden them in ridiculously rocky Michaux State Forest, PA and similarly rocky/technical Frederick MD; Patapsco State Park, MD and all sorts of other area trails plus urban assault rides down staircases and other ďfeaturesĒ.

    I run them tubeless: front ~18 psi and ~25 psi rear.
    【ツ】 eDub 【ツ】

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  60. #260
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    Feeling pretty lucky I got my black Berds when I did as they just increased their prices significantly and I absolutely love them.
    Before on a new build, Berds were an easy decision, now they are some high dollar spokes!
    Hope mine last me indefinitely.

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  61. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Feeling pretty lucky I got my black Berds when I did as they just increased their prices significantly and I absolutely love them.
    Before on a new build, Berds were an easy decision, now they are some high dollar spokes!
    Hope mine last me indefinitely.

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    You consider 39 cents a significant increase?

  62. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by the mayor View Post
    You consider 39 cents a significant increase?
    Yes it's huge!

    By my reading I paid $595 for both wheels including shipping and it's now $450/ wheel.

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  63. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Yes it's huge!

    By my reading I paid $595 for both wheels including shipping and it's now $450/ wheel.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    It's now $625 for a set of wheels with 64 spokes....or 39 cents per spoke.

  64. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by the mayor View Post
    It's now $625 for a set of wheels with 64 spokes....or 39 cents per spoke.
    Link?

    Cause here is the link I'm looking at: https://berdspokes.com/collections/b...30299667169376

    Which to rebuild 1 wheel with anything less than 44 spokes with black Berd's cost $475/ wheel.

    And I don't mean this as a jab to Berd as I love mine, just glad I got it before demand resulted in a price increase.

    You can buy individual spokes for $8/ each if you have someone else build the wheels.

    So glad I have mine!

  65. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Link?

    Cause here is the link I'm looking at: https://berdspokes.com/collections/b...30299667169376

    Which to rebuild 1 wheel with anything less than 44 spokes with black Berd's cost $475/ wheel.

    And I don't mean this as a jab to Berd as I love mine, just glad I got it before demand resulted in a price increase.

    You can buy individual spokes for $8/ each if you have someone else build the wheels.

    So glad I have mine!
    The costs havenít increased at all, other than the option to use black Berd spokes at +$25. Otherwise, itís the same pricing as it has been. I know, because I purchased a rebuild and just shipped my wheels out to them yesterday. I plugged in my info again, and itís the same.


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  66. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Link?

    Cause here is the link I'm looking at: https://berdspokes.com/collections/b...30299667169376

    Which to rebuild 1 wheel with anything less than 44 spokes with black Berd's cost $475/ wheel.

    And I don't mean this as a jab to Berd as I love mine, just glad I got it before demand resulted in a price increase.

    You can buy individual spokes for $8/ each if you have someone else build the wheels.

    So glad I have mine!
    Psst....Sunshine....on that link you provided...use the drop down and select 64 spokes (which is 2 wheels). Internetting is hard.
    On the individual spoke page....they had the black spokes for $8.39 for black....but it was taken down yesterday for some reason

  67. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by the mayor View Post
    Psst....Sunshine....on that link you provided...use the drop down and select 64 spokes (which is 2 wheels). Internetting is hard.
    On the individual spoke page....they had the black spokes for $8.39 for black....but it was taken down yesterday for some reason
    Doh!

    I'll let myself out...

  68. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Doh!

    I'll let myself out...
    Hahaha! It happens.
    If that's your biggest mistake of the day...for me, that would be a pretty good day.
    Just had a set of Mikesee built Berd wheels show up...can't wait to roll them

  69. #269
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    well

    just saw a wheel that had a chain jam between cassette and berd spokes and der got eaten as well...unconf*kulated it and...didn't do anything to the berds except smudge them with mung. berds just laughed at the chain grinding against them.
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  70. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    well

    just saw a wheel that had a chain jam between cassette and berd spokes and der got eaten as well...unconf*kulated it and...didn't do anything to the berds except smudge them with mung. berds just laughed at the chain grinding against them.
    I've been using UHMWPE cord for another project recently (building a yurt) and it's quite amazing how resilient this stuff is to abrasion, cutting, etc.

    I have to use a pair of VERY sharp and very sturdy scissors, and exert a LOT of force, to cut through 3mm cord.
    Death from Below.

  71. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    well

    just saw a wheel that had a chain jam between cassette and berd spokes and der got eaten as well...unconf*kulated it and...didn't do anything to the berds except smudge them with mung. berds just laughed at the chain grinding against them.
    Wow... this might have sold me on them. Got a set of wheels that I dropped a chain between the cassette and spokes after I wrecked and didn't check the derailleur was straightÖ it was like a chainsaw on the CX-Rays, lots 5 spokes immediately, shot one through the rim tape and I was walking back to the car with flat tire, bent hanger, and sealant all over the place.

  72. #272
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    Got a couple of rides on mine now.
    Definitely soaks up some of the trail chatter compared to my other wheels.
    These are 240 hubs laced to Nox Kitsu rims by Lacemine29.

    My other wheels are 240s laced with Lasers to Nexties and 350s laced with Lasers to Raceface ARC35s

  73. #273
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    Did notice that when I stand and pedal really hard it doesn't feel as instant for just a moment before it zooms off. Maybe it's a lack of chatter (which is definitely real), not sure it really matters.

    If you have ever ridden on Onyx hubs and noticed that softness when you initiate hard pedaling, it's very similar to that. Was extremely close to going with Onyx Vesper's on this wheel build and I wouldn't want that sensation x2 so glad I stuck with P321s.

    I suspect that the Berd wheels have increased 'radial' compliance and it's just a hair of windup when you begin to pedal. No biggie either way.

    My entire bike just has a lack of drama these days, thing feels easy to ride fast.

  74. #274
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    My Berd wheels are on the way back to me! The process has been easy and fast, and Charlie has proactively communicated with me at each step. Berd took one week from receipt of my wheels (last Friday, 10/11) to de-lace them, rebuild them with Berd spokes, and then ship them back out to me (Friday, 10/18). They will be here next week via UPS.

    I did the white spokes, because I like how they look with my bike (Yeti SB100), and they were also a few days faster than the (new) black spoke option they have. I'll post up pics and weight as soon as I receive them...can't wait!
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  75. #275
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    Ordered a rebuild today. I love riding rigid bikes, but a bad wreck last year and associated broken bones and nerve damage has made it more difficult. I'm hoping the spokes will help smooth things out a little. Primarily want to reduce fatigue on longer 50+ mile rides, and make it easier to hold on to the bars on chattery sections.

    I currently have a little over 2,500 miles on my wheelset and am very familiar with how they ride, so I should be able to compare with little to no placebo effects.

    Rims are Kappius XCW 40i
    Spokes are cxray 28 front 32 rear
    Hubs are p321

    I have the same hub spacing on my wife's hardtail and my short travel FS, so I plan to do some comparisons if I can find the time. She has derby 40i and I have Enve 635.

    Lots of variables but I hope it will be easy to determine how much of a difference the spokes make for rigid, hardtail, and full suspension. All have cxray spokes and large tires, so the I don't think weight savings will be noticeable, but I'm primarily interested in comfort and ride characteristics.



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  76. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by coke View Post
    Ordered a rebuild today. I love riding rigid bikes, but a bad wreck last year and associated broken bones and nerve damage has made it more difficult. I'm hoping the spokes will help smooth things out a little. Primarily want to reduce fatigue on longer 50+ mile rides, and make it easier to hold on to the bars on chattery sections.
    ...
    Lots of variables but I hope it will be easy to determine how much of a difference the spokes make for rigid, hardtail, and full suspension. All have cxray spokes and large tires, so the I don't think weight savings will be noticeable, but I'm primarily interested in comfort and ride characteristics.
    Cool! I sent off a box of parts earlier this week, too. I have been following these fancy strings for a while and I finally heard enough good things that I decided to give them a shot. For me pretty much anything that can help with my gimpy hands is worth it. Even a subtle improvement is still an improvement, and these spokes seem to have a lot to offer. I'm hoping for them to be smooth riding, tough and durable. Light is a bonus but if I cared about weight too much I wouldn't be running Onyx hubs.

    I have an almost identical wheelset on a different bike built with Sapim Lasers, so it will be interesting to do some back to back comparisons. These wheels will consist of BTLOS M-i29A rims with Onyx Classic hubs, 32h. And I'll be using them on an Ibis Ripley.

  77. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by coke View Post
    Ordered a rebuild today. I love riding rigid bikes, but a bad wreck last year and associated broken bones and nerve damage has made it more difficult. I'm hoping the spokes will help smooth things out a little. Primarily want to reduce fatigue on longer 50+ mile rides, and make it easier to hold on to the bars on chattery sections.

    I currently have a little over 2,500 miles on my wheelset and am very familiar with how they ride, so I should be able to compare with little to no placebo effects.
    I'm over 60...with 50 years of moto and mtb racing....so plenty of injuries here.

    The Berds are noticable on my hardtail. It does take a little vibration out of the trail.
    Nothing earth shattering....but it's there...
    It's not as evident on a full suspension bike...as expected

  78. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Did notice that when I stand and pedal really hard it doesn't feel as instant for just a moment before it zooms off. Maybe it's a lack of chatter (which is definitely real), not sure it really matters.
    Yes...there is definitely a wind up with these wheels.( which is good)
    If you've been around a while....they feel just like the Tioga Tension Disk wheels of the 90s....except they last longer than a few hours.

  79. #279
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    Why is it good in your opinion? Thx.

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  80. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by the mayor View Post
    Yes...there is definitely a wind up with these wheels.( which is good)
    If you've been around a while....they feel just like the Tioga Tension Disk wheels of the 90s....except they last longer than a few hours.
    I'm wondering what this is going to feel like with the Onyx hubs, I can't say that I am overly sensitive to the sensation. I don't currently notice the effect so much as feel the smoothness overall in the drivetrain. I'm just looking for more of that, throughout the whole bike. It's already the nicest riding bike I have had, but anything can be improved. And I don't think I will ever get to the point that my hands aren't a limiting factor.

  81. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by the mayor View Post
    Yes...there is definitely a wind up with these wheels.( which is good)
    If you've been around a while....they feel just like the Tioga Tension Disk wheels of the 90s....except they last longer than a few hours.
    I hadn't noticed this on my FS rig (Yeti SB100), but I'm going to send my SS wheelset in for a Berd rebuild, so I will definitely notice any wind up on that bike (HT SS).
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  82. #282
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    I have a wheelset with 29er EIE carbon 30mm internal rims (360g), onyx vesper hubs, built with berd spokes sitting at home just waiting for me to get back from this business trip (haven't seen them yet). Gah !#@[email protected]%!# the wait is killing me, I've been waiting 6months for centerlock onyx vespers to finally be released, and now that I finally have them I'm not there....

    Anyways first world problems aside, I'll be putting them on my sb100 replacing some cheap race face ar27 aluminum wheels with 18 engament point dt350s. I'll let you guys know if I notice any crazy windup from the onyx+berd. Also will post weights, overall thoughts etc. I'm hoping to ride it Saturday.

  83. #283
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    I've been riding Berd spokes for a year and a half now. I definitely notice some compliance in these wheels that other identical-except-for-the-spokes wheels don't have.

    I have not noticed any windup, nor flex in any plane.

  84. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I've been riding Berd spokes for a year and a half now. I definitely notice some compliance in these wheels that other identical-except-for-the-spokes wheels don't have.

    I have not noticed any windup, nor flex in any plane.
    When I say wind up....I mean that, when hammering hard up to speed....the wheel seems to spring forward. It's slight...but it's there...and unlike any other wheel I have. The only other wheel I've ever felt this was the Tiogas. The exact opposite was the Spinergy Spox...where it felt like the wheels was actually sucking up energy.

    They are definitely more compliant than any other carbon wheel I have used, and better than many alloy wheels....and I don't get any flex.
    All positive things. ( except maybe the cost of the spokes....lol)

    Make sense???
    (full disclosure: Mike built my wheels)

  85. #285
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    What's the difference between compliance and flex?
    Do the math.

  86. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Rager View Post
    What's the difference between compliance and flex?

    I define compliance as dampness. Berd wheels feel more comfortable.

    I define flex as movement out of a defined plane.

  87. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    I hadn't noticed this on my FS rig (Yeti SB100), but I'm going to send my SS wheelset in for a Berd rebuild, so I will definitely notice any wind up on that bike (HT SS).
    Curious to hear your impressions after you get a ride or two on the new setup!
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

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    Yeah keep sharing your thoughts and experiences, fascinated by these spokes. Waiting to pull the trigger later this year.

  89. #289
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    Berd spokes.

    I received the rebuilt wheels today - 18 days from when I shipped them out, with 4 days in transit with UPS each way. Berd turned them around in less than one week, and was very communicative throughout. Iím very impressed with their customer service.

    Iím thrilled with the weight, and how they look. Pics to follow. Build is Chinese carbon 30mm rims and I9 Hydra Centerlock hubs, 28h, laced with the white Berd spokes. I chose white because I had them on a loaner wheelset, and like the way they look on my bike, plus they are $25 cheaper and 3-4 days faster turnaround than the black.

    Weights are as follows (including tape and valve stems):
    - Front: 594g
    - Rear: 735g
    - Total: 1,329g

    This is a 226g reduction from prior to the rebuild, with the typical Sapim steel spokes (705g front, 850g rear).

    I canít wait to ride these! In case you didnít see my posts above in this thread, I had a loaner set with Berds while I waited for the Hydras to arrive, and put ~700 miles on them. When I got the new Hydra wheelset, I immediately noticed the less-compliant ride, and decided to have it rebuilt with Berds. The difference is real, and noticeable, not to mention the >1/2 lb. weight savings in the wheels. They spin up ridiculously well.

    Pics:






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  90. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    I canít wait to ride these! In case you didnít see my posts above in this thread, I had a loaner set with Berds while I waited for the Hydras to arrive, and put ~700 miles on them. When I got the new Hydra wheelset, I immediately noticed the less-compliant ride, and decided to have it rebuilt with Berds. The difference is real, and noticeable, not to mention the >1/2 lb. weight savings in the wheels. They spin up ridiculously well.
    Curious if your Hydra wheelset had aluminum or steel spokes? Carbon or aluminum rims?
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  91. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    Curious if your Hydra wheelset had aluminum or steel spokes? Carbon or aluminum rims?
    My Hydras were laced to the exact same carbon rims you see above (the same pair) with steel spokes.

    The loaner Berd wheelset had the same carbon rims (though a different pair), Reynolds TR6 hubs and the Berd spokes. It was noticeably more compliant than the Hydra wheelset.


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  92. #292
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    What mfg and model of rim is it ? HOw much do the rims weigh ?

  93. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    My Hydras were laced to the exact same carbon rims you see above (the same pair) with steel spokes.
    Cool thanks.
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  94. #294
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    Looks like Berd spokes are starting to gain traction with other wheel makers...in this case, Atomik Carbon. $1600 for a complete hand-built wheelset seems reasonable seeing the Berd spoke upgrade alone goes for $1200. Still finding it hard to grasp using "string" for spokes and having it hold up. Time and hard riding will tell!

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    ē 29Ē XC33 w/I9 Boost Hydra Hubs, 28 Holes: 1,410 grams
    ē 29Ē AM35 w/I9 Boost Hydra Hubs, 32 Holes: 1,610 grams
    ē 27.5Ē AM35 w/I9 Boost Hydra, 32 Holes: 1,530 grams

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/atomik...wheelsets.html

    One note about their lifetime warranty -
    This warranty does not apply to parts not manufactured by Atomik Carbon, including hubs, spokes and nipples. Removing or altering the serial number in anyway will render the warranty null and void.
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  95. #295
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    The $595 price includes TWO wheels.
    They aren't $1200/ set but half that.

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  96. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    What mfg and model of rim is it ? HOw much do the rims weigh ?
    Sorry; forgot about this! Iím not sure of the manufacturer and model; itís one of the Chinese manufacturers, and one of the guys whoís seen them thinks it might be Light Bicycles. Iíll ask the LBS who got a bulk order of the rims. Re the weight, they are roughly 400g, +/-. I backed into the weights and came up with 388g for one, and 405g for the other, though those weights may be off slightly.


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  97. #297
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    Sent my SS wheelset in yesterday for a Berd rebuild: Nox Farlow rims, 32h, orange I9 Torch hubs (rear SS-specific). Going with black Berds on this one. Will post up pics and weights when I get it back!
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  98. #298
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    So this thread has caught my attention and I definitely will be going with Berd Spokes on my next wheelset. I was checking out their complete wheelsets on their webpage and they have XC Series Carbon wheels for sale. I was wondering what rim they use with that build. They are too narrow for me, but may work great on my wife's bike.

    https://berdspokes.com/collections/b...30207156027488

  99. #299
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    I have another quick question. Sorry if it has already been asked, but are these spokes hard to keep clean? Itís extremely dusty where I ride and was curious if they look nasty most of the time and if a simple rinse does the job?

  100. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpfurn View Post
    So this thread has caught my attention and I definitely will be going with Berd Spokes on my next wheelset. I was checking out their complete wheelsets on their webpage and they have XC Series Carbon wheels for sale. I was wondering what rim they use with that build. They are too narrow for me, but may work great on my wife's bike.

    https://berdspokes.com/collections/b...30207156027488
    I just ordered a set of hydra xc25s
    Project One Trek Madone 9
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  101. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpfurn View Post
    I have another quick question. Sorry if it has already been asked, but are these spokes hard to keep clean? Itís extremely dusty where I ride and was curious if they look nasty most of the time and if a simple rinse does the job?
    UHMWPE is easy to keep clean, especially when it has tension on it (read: laced into a functional wheel). The outside can be washed with any mild detergents (so, bike/auto washes).

    It tends not to get particularly dirty in the first place; it is used commonly in fishing, and the line stays quite clean, compared to fresh stuff off the spool.

    Maybe it won't be bright white, but unless you're bleaching your teeth, you probably won't have a problem with it.

  102. #302
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    No problem keeping clean at all.

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  103. #303
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    Good to hear, thanks guys!

  104. #304
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    Same rims, hubs, tape and tubeless valves.
    Steel spokes are Sapim Laser Spokes about $1.25 ea.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Berd spokes.-img_3780.jpg  

    Berd spokes.-img_3781.jpg  

    I Pity The Fool That Can't Ride A Bike Without A Dropper!!

  105. #305
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    Mine came in today.

    157 super boost rear

    Boost front

    29 x 40internal rims

    1569g for the set

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  106. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom tom View Post
    Same rims, hubs, tape and tubeless valves.
    Steel spokes are Sapim Laser Spokes about $1.25 ea.
    What size (ie butted, double butted ) metal spokes were they ?


    Mine came in today.

    157 super boost rear

    Boost front

    29 x 40internal rims

    1569g for the set
    What did the bare rims weigh ?

  107. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post


    What did the bare rims weigh ?
    I've never weighed them but they are supposed to be 435 +/- 15.

    Wheelset does seem to add up a little more than the sum of all the advertised weights. I did add grease to quiet the rear hub.

    Rims and Hubs have around 2500 miles on them and I'm extremely happy with the combo. Just switched to berd to help smooth the ride on my rigid bike. I don't really care much about the weight.


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  108. #308
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    According to my math they're pretty much right on target. 435g is pretty light for 40mm rim. I think you're doing just fine. Let us know how they feel, if you can really tell any difference or not.

  109. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Sent my SS wheelset in yesterday for a Berd rebuild: Nox Farlow rims, 32h, orange I9 Torch hubs (rear SS-specific). Going with black Berds on this one. Will post up pics and weights when I get it back!
    Latest: Charlie (from Berd) e-mailed me yesterday, letting me know that my wheels were done and shipped out. They should arrive early next week, and Iíll post up pics and weights.


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  110. #310
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    Berd spokes.

    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Latest: Charlie (from Berd) e-mailed me yesterday, letting me know that my wheels were done and shipped out. They should arrive early next week, and Iíll post up pics and weights.


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    SS is up and running with Berds! Wheelset build is as follows: Nox Farlow 32h, 29mm ID rims; laced to I9 Torch hubs in mango/orange (rear SS-specific); Berd spokes in black. Weight is 1537g, including valve stems and tape (f - 700g; r - 837g). The Berds reduced the weight of my wheelset by 146g.

    On my Pivot LES SS, Iím running Ikon 2.35ís.






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  111. #311
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    >The Berds reduced the weight of my wheelset by 146g

    What spokes were you running before ?

    The black spokes look really sharp, in the photos they don't stick out as unusual at all which might be a demerit to some people but is certainly my preference.

    Let us know how they ride for you.

    A lot of lighter XC style builds, I'm thinking of using these on some DH and Enduro wheels. I generally don't have a problem with rims but I often break spokes and have had to up the sizes to 2.0/1.8 so I see a lot of potential advantages if I can have featherweight spokes with 2.0mm strength and some extra compliance as well.

  112. #312
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    Mine are ready to ride, but unfortunately it rained and Iíll have to wait a few days.

    For anyone ordering these, keep in mind youíll need to retape them.




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  113. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by coke View Post

    That thing looks ready to float away.

  114. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    That thing looks ready to float away.
    The big 3" XR4 keeps it grounded


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  115. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    >The Berds reduced the weight of my wheelset by 146g

    What spokes were you running before ?

    The black spokes look really sharp, in the photos they don't stick out as unusual at all which might be a demerit to some people but is certainly my preference.

    Let us know how they ride for you.

    A lot of lighter XC style builds, I'm thinking of using these on some DH and Enduro wheels. I generally don't have a problem with rims but I often break spokes and have had to up the sizes to 2.0/1.8 so I see a lot of potential advantages if I can have featherweight spokes with 2.0mm strength and some extra compliance as well.
    I showed up for practice at an Enduro race last week (didn't do the race). Got a KOM on a green trail (my first and realistically probably my last) & a handful of top 10s on the other blacks, hit 42 mph at one point on a rough rocky section, all on Berds.

    Heck when my new wheels with Berds were brand new I lost air and nailed the crap out of a G out with nothing but an insert and a nasty clang. Just trued the rear that lost air after that and have been fine ever since.

    I use to carry spare bladed spokes btw in my truck as I broke them fairly often for a while there. So from a durability stand point, Berd's are considerably better than steel.

    The only thing that is weird, and I can't even call it a detriment, but every once in a while I'll REALLY feel the rear wheel flex. It's like the loads all hit just right and I'll quite notice it. But ya know, it might be keeping the rear tire in contact with the ground where other wise it might have lost traction at that moment.

    PS. I submitted a photo of me jumping through a tree on Berds from that practice for Berd's contest (since closed). The photo itself wasn't the best shot (buddy with a phone). Hoping I win another set of Berd's so I can either build DH wheels or maybe some trick wheels for my wife's bicycle.

  116. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    >The Berds reduced the weight of my wheelset by 146g

    What spokes were you running before ?

    The black spokes look really sharp, in the photos they don't stick out as unusual at all which might be a demerit to some people but is certainly my preference.

    Let us know how they ride for you.

    A lot of lighter XC style builds, I'm thinking of using these on some DH and Enduro wheels. I generally don't have a problem with rims but I often break spokes and have had to up the sizes to 2.0/1.8 so I see a lot of potential advantages if I can have featherweight spokes with 2.0mm strength and some extra compliance as well.
    Sapim Race. I was actually surprised the weight savings wasn't greater, because I saved 226g on the 28h wheelset for my SB100, and I figured that 32h would yield greater savings. But I think the black color adds a slight bit of weight...just my hunch.

    The white spokes grew on me when I had the loaner wheelset, and I prefer them on my SB100. I like the distinctive look. But I wanted black for my SS, to match the stealth coloring of the LES frame.

    And yep; to your last point, the weight and the compliance, along with the strength, are a great combo.
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  117. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    I showed up for practice at an Enduro race last week (didn't do the race). Got a KOM on a green trail (my first and realistically probably my last) & a handful of top 10s on the other blacks, hit 42 mph at one point on a rough rocky section, all on Berds.

    Heck when my new wheels with Berds were brand new I lost air and nailed the crap out of a G out with nothing but an insert and a nasty clang. Just trued the rear that lost air after that and have been fine ever since.

    I use to carry spare bladed spokes btw in my truck as I broke them fairly often for a while there. So from a durability stand point, Berd's are considerably better than steel.

    The only thing that is weird, and I can't even call it a detriment, but every once in a while I'll REALLY feel the rear wheel flex. It's like the loads all hit just right and I'll quite notice it. But ya know, it might be keeping the rear tire in contact with the ground where other wise it might have lost traction at that moment.

    PS. I submitted a photo of me jumping through a tree on Berds from that practice for Berd's contest (since closed). The photo itself wasn't the best shot (buddy with a phone). Hoping I win another set of Berd's so I can either build DH wheels or maybe some trick wheels for my wife's bicycle.
    I'll let you know if I notice any flex on my SS; I haven't noticed any on my SB100.
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  118. #318
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    So we're al bike geeks here right ? Ok good....

    Sapim Race are listed at 5.6 g
    Berds are 2.5.

    I assume alloy nipples are close to 0.4, but my understanding is Berd uses standard aluminum nipples so we'll ignore that.

    Then yes you shoud have saved ~3g per spoke or ~192g instead of 146g.
    The black coloring might add 1g per spoke ? Is that just your thought or have you heard from Berd or elsewhere they might be heavier ?

    What type of spokes were on your 28 spoke Sb100 wheels ?

  119. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    So we're al bike geeks here right ? Ok good....

    Sapim Race are listed at 5.6 g
    Berds are 2.5.

    I assume alloy nipples are close to 0.4, but my understanding is Berd uses standard aluminum nipples so we'll ignore that.

    Then yes you shoud have saved ~3g per spoke or ~192g instead of 146g.
    The black coloring might add 1g per spoke ? Is that just your thought or have you heard from Berd or elsewhere they might be heavier ?

    What type of spokes were on your 28 spoke Sb100 wheels ?
    Oh yeah; we are bike geeks, for sure!

    OK; correction on my SS...just talked with the guy who built them and he said he used Sapim Lasers, which 4.42g each. So the savings is 1.92g per spoke, and 123g total. Iím not sure where the additional 23g came from, but could be in the taping and valves.

    On my SB100, those were Sapim Race, at about 5.67g each, so the savings was 3.17g per spoke, and 177-178g total (28h build). I was surprised that the savings came in at 226g, but I know the tape job was somewhat overdone, and the valves are smaller, so it could be that the additional 48-49g of savings was in the tape and valves.

    Of course, the actual weight of the Berds could be slightly less than 2.5g, so could be some savings there. Iíll ask the Berd guys, because they are super responsive and helpful.

    Hope this helps! And the ride...sublime!


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  120. #320
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    Well thank God we got that straightened out !

    Really looking forward to building a couple sets of these.

  121. #321
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    Berd spokes.

    I got my first ride with the spokes last night. We did 2 loops on my local 6 mile xc trail

    Iím very familiar with the bike and wheels having over 2500 miles on them with cxray spokes.

    Iím very familiar with the trail, and strava showís Iíve done over 400 laps.

    Overall I would say they are a really nice change for my rigid bike. It just felt more planted and hopped, slid, and skipped less than normal.

    I was surprised how the bike did on rough choppy downhills. Seems like the spokes absorbed a little of the bigger hits and allowed me to relax more than normal.

    The spokes didnít do anything weird or abnormal.

    Surprisingly I didnít notice much of a difference on the flatter and smoother parts of the trail, but it could be due to running 3" tires and low pressure.

    If these prove to be durable, I plan to run them on all my rigid and hard tail bikes going forward.




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  122. #322
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    Thanks for the report although I don't think I'd be able to tell anything about wheel or spoke compliance if I was running low pressure 3" tires !

  123. #323
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    Berd spokes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    Thanks for the report although I don't think I'd be able to tell anything about wheel or spoke compliance if I was running low pressure 3" tires !
    Small changes are more noticeable when you have no suspension.


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  124. #324
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    I'm on a 150/ 160 travel bike and it feels so notably calm on Berds through the chatter and even when I lay hard into the pedals that it feels like I'm going slow. That high frequency trail buzz you feel when you are going pretty fast on a consistently rough trail, is all but neutralized on Berds.
    I'm 95% certain I am not going slower but don't Strava enough to have accurate records.
    Anyone else timed themselves pre & post Berd to try and ascertain any statistical differences in overall speed?

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  125. #325
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    I love my Berd spokes. 100% reliable, light, killer ride, etc.
    Would definitely do again.

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  126. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by coke View Post
    Small changes are more noticeable when you have no suspension.
    And a tiny change in air pressure or even a difference in ambient temp could easily create the same feeling, if there even is one. Nothing personal, but this sounds like classic "placebo effect" to me.

  127. #327
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    Jim Langley, who is someone I respect as an impartial technical editor for decades, is currently testing Berd spokes. It will be interesting to see what he has to say about them.

  128. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bnystrom View Post
    And a tiny change in air pressure or even a difference in ambient temp could easily create the same feeling, if there even is one. Nothing personal, but this sounds like classic "placebo effect" to me.

    Sounds like you've been watching a lot of Alex Jones, to me.

  129. #329
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    First off, I've never watched Alex Jones and never will. Regardless, what possible connection can you see between my comment and a conspiracy theorist? I simply stated a couple of obvious facts that anyone who knows anything about wheels and tires would understand.

    Perhaps I could have been more specific, say for example a 1-2 psi change in the "3" tires and low pressure" that coke said he was running could explain what he says he felt. As for ambient temperature, it affects the stiffness of the rubber in the tires, though it would take a substantial change (tens of degrees) to make a noticeable difference.

    Is that clear enough?

  130. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bnystrom View Post
    First off, I've never watched Alex Jones and never will. Regardless, what possible connection can you see between my comment and a conspiracy theorist? I simply stated a couple of obvious facts that anyone who knows anything about wheels and tires would understand.

    I don't/can't watch him either.

    The way you came across was as someone for whom no amount of proof could ever be enough.

    The person whom you were questioning has been riding a long time, and the more of his posts you read the more you 'get' that he's in tune with his gear and able to parse small changes.

    I'm that guy too -- I've been riding for 45 years continuously, and I enjoy paying attention to the small things that manifest in/on any given ride of any given bike.

    In general you're not wrong: small differences can sometimes be attributable to placebo. And not everyone can discern the difference.

    But suggesting that that's the only possible answer here is both offensive and dismissive.

    Think about it.

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    If your talking about the additional compliance in Berd spokes I assure you that it is not placebo effect. It's actually very obvious and noticable.
    It would be about the same difference in trail chatter between 20psi vs. 35psi.

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    I've also been riding since the mid-70s, worked in the bike biz, raced on the road, built a lot of wheels and all that good stuff. I'm very much in tune with my equipment and I'm frequently amazed by the things riders don't notice, like extremely high/low tire pressure, slipping seatposts, poor/noisy shifting, loose rattling parts, etc. However, I'm also keenly aware that I'm as vulnerable to the siren call of the placebo effect as anyone, and I'm careful to evaluate my own perception from that perspective. Does what I think I feel actually make sense? Is there another possible explanation?

    I'm not being dismissive or insulting, I'm just pointing out that we're all susceptible to wishful thinking and absent actual measured data, we need to be aware of that.

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    Sorry, but I'm not buying that until I see some hard numbers. Frankly, it simply doesn't make any sense and basically defies the laws of physics. I can believe that Berd spokes can reduce high-frequency vibration compared to steel spokes, but that's not something you'll feel on a mountain bike. It will like change the sound of the wheels, which can change your perception of the ride, even if it doesn't change compliance in any measurable way.

    As for your 20 vs. 35 psi claim, really? Be serious; nothing you can change with spokes - short of leaving them loose - can ever have that much of an effect. But, I suspect you know that. At least you should if you've ever built a wheel.

  134. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bnystrom View Post
    Does what I think I feel actually make sense? Is there another possible explanation?

    I'm not being dismissive or insulting, I'm just pointing out that we're all susceptible to wishful thinking and absent actual measured data, we need to be aware of that.

    You may not *intend* to be dismissive or insulting, but that's not always how what you're saying is being perceived.

    Case in point: It seems you're assuming that those of us whom have noticed (and continue to notice and appreciate) the compliant feel of a Berd spoked wheel aren't capable of using a pressure gauge, nor reading a thermometer, nor understanding that we've gained a few thousand vert through the course of a ride.

    It actually seems as though you are as guilty of your accusations as anyone. To wit: You've made some assumptions and -- without a shred of evidence -- have concluded that they're true.

  135. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bnystrom View Post
    Sorry, but I'm not buying that until I see some hard numbers. Frankly, it simply doesn't make any sense and basically defies the laws of physics. I can believe that Berd spokes can reduce high-frequency vibration compared to steel spokes, but that's not something you'll feel on a mountain bike. It will like change the sound of the wheels, which can change your perception of the ride, even if it doesn't change compliance in any measurable way.

    As for your 20 vs. 35 psi claim, really? Be serious; nothing you can change with spokes - short of leaving them loose - can ever have that much of an effect. But, I suspect you know that. At least you should if you've ever built a wheel.
    what are you smokin ?
    a cyclist who puts in real miles can feel just about every component change on the bike. berds can be felt. carbon hoops vs alum can be felt. thick grease vs thin grease can be felt. frickin different chain lube can be felt. a bike is a tuned vibrating instrument and ... vibrations are picked up by hands, feet, and arse
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  136. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bnystrom View Post
    And a tiny change in air pressure or even a difference in ambient temp could easily create the same feeling, if there even is one. Nothing personal, but this sounds like classic "placebo effect" to me.
    Some additional information:

    For the initial test conditions, I was on a trail Iíve lapped around 450 times and on a bike Iíve ridden over 2500 miles.

    Iíve been using the same pump and gauge since 2015.

    I check and adjust my air pressure prior to every ride, typically within 10 minutes of riding.

    I tune my bike tire pressures to 1/2 a pound.

    I have a spreadsheet with all my bikes and various tire combos listing the tire pressures Iíve found after testing.

    3Ē xr4 front = 13psi. 3Ē xr3 rear = 15psi

    I have an engineering degree and am very skeptical and analytical by nature. If I donít like a bike component, I have no issue sharing my opinion.

    I have around 300 miles on the spokes now, and my opinion and thoughts about them I mentioned earlier havenít changed.




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  137. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    carbon hoops vs alum can be felt.
    Not to hijack, you can PM if you like. Is this really noticeable? Do you find aluminum more comfortable and which do you ride?

    Thanks

  138. #338
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    There's a big difference between perceiving something is different and it having an actual effect on a bike's performance.

    If we're going to be completely honest, we can't be sure what we're feeling if we know that something has changed before we ride. When we know, we're going to be looking for that change and more than likely, we'll find it, whether it actually exists or not. Don't get me wrong, I agree that significant changes can be felt, but I suspect that we all think that we're better at feeling them than we are. This has been shown over and over again with engineers and team mechanics who work with professional riders. The riders frequently find the things they expect to find, even if nothing has changed.

    This is a flaw in all human beings, we just suck at some things.

  139. #339
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    I agree that the ride on Berd spokes is noticeably different, on both suspension and rigid bikes. I liken it to riding on very thin carpet... nothing too dramatic/earth shattering- just immediately apparent.

    My Berd wheel set spends the most time on a 120/100mm Scott Spark FS 29er (2.4 front/2.25 rear tires) that gets run through the ringer on rocks, technical single track and urban assault rides.

    I've also ridden the wheel set on 3 other rigid bikes (Soma Wolverine steel fork & frame gravel/CX and two single speed 29er's with ENVE carbon forks).

    I typically run the single speeds with 3" front tires @~15 psi or less which is a more cushy ride than the Berd front wheel (with obviously less responsive handling than a 2.4" tire at ~17-18 psi).

    I'm not sure how much data/evidence will be sufficient for you to give them a try but figured I'd throw in .02 or more.

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  140. #340
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    OK, I agree with you about perception. However, what I'm doing is simply pointing out to others who may read this that there are alternative explanations, particularly if tests are not conducted under controlled conditions. Nothing was specified, so are you are assuming that the conditions were identical? How is that any less biased than me pointing out that they may not have been?

    Whenever you're dealing with human perception, there is always bias, for a variety of reasons. We always want our new toy to meet or exceed our expectations. Of course we want our experiments to produce the results we seek. We certainly hope that money we've invested was well-spent. In other words, we have a lot of incentives to find what we want and basically none to admit that we couldn't tell a difference or that we were incorrect. Again, I'm no different in that regard (I hate to be disappointed, too), though maybe I'm more analytical than some others and I definitely tend to look at claims with a jaundiced eye, until I see real evidence.

    As the saying goes, "One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions". Would you disagree with that?

  141. #341
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    Fair enough, though I wonder what it is that you're actually perceiving. At least you're making reasonable claims.

    And yeah, I'd much rather be riding, but that's not an option at the moment.

  142. #342
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    I've been interested in trying the Berds for some time - recently purchased a new lightweight DH frame, excited to have a nimbler DH bike than the tanks I've been riding. Bought some new DT Swiss rims and hubs and they're sitting in a box ready to ship. Although the first thought of some is these spokes might not be the best choice for a DH wheel, if anything the weight savings will be much more significant than a XC wheel as I would usually run straight gauge 2.0 spokes. And if there is a compliance effect so much the better.

    I filled out the form on Berd's website and was about to click on buy like I've been planning on for months, but I stopped and just kept looking at that number - $700 including shipping (64 spokes, black)

    And I just can't quite bring myself to to click it - the box is sitting in my way every day, I need to make a decision and get these wheels built.

    Not looking for any input, just thinking out loud. As a confessed equipment geek, where do I draw the line ?

  143. #343
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    @Bnystrom, is this really the hill you want to die on ?

    From other reviewer on BERD

    There is a noticeable difference in the way the Berd wheels ride compared to a traditional wheelset with metal spokes. While it would be easy to dismiss Atomik's claims of vibration damping as marketing hoopla, in this case, there's something to it. The Berd wheels are noticeably smoother when it comes to ride quality. I never experienced the sensation of getting kicked around in rough sections of trail as many overly stiff wheelsets do. Compared to the recently reviewed Bontrager Kovee XXX wheels, the Atomiks offer slightly more forgiveness/compliance but also weigh in a little bit heavier, and the acceleration doesn't feel quite as snappy, although it's still very quick

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review...de-wheels.html
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  144. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bnystrom View Post
    OK

    Can't let it go, eh?

    You've assumed that my (and others) observations weren't conducted under controlled conditions. Why? Have you read the whole thread?

    Seems like not.

    I took an existing wheelset that I'd ridden on the same bike, same conditions, same trails, same rider, same tires, and same pressures measured using the same gauge, and I *only* changed the spokes. Nothing but spokes, then I reassembled everything and went and rode.

    And I immediately noticed a substantial difference in ride feel.

    Why do you have such a hard time accepting that?

    Be skeptical, sure. Ask more questions, sure. Introduce other plausible theories, sure.

    But to make a blanket assertion that we're all suckling from the placebo tree is offensive, dismissive.

    It completely misses the controls that have been put in place. It misses the deductive process.

    It's sort of like reading a headline and assuming that you know the whole story in granular detail.

    Newsflash: You don't. But the info is still out there for you to consume, and if you did that you might change your mind.

  145. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bnystrom View Post
    Sorry, but I'm not buying that until I see some hard numbers. Frankly, it simply doesn't make any sense and basically defies the laws of physics. I can believe that Berd spokes can reduce high-frequency vibration compared to steel spokes, but that's not something you'll feel on a mountain bike. It will like change the sound of the wheels, which can change your perception of the ride, even if it doesn't change compliance in any measurable way.

    As for your 20 vs. 35 psi claim, really? Be serious; nothing you can change with spokes - short of leaving them loose - can ever have that much of an effect. But, I suspect you know that. At least you should if you've ever built a wheel.
    That was hyperbole on my part, but frankly I get the impression you struggle to feel changes so I wanted to give you a very obvious difference that you would acknowledge anyone could feel.

    You know how a rear tire at say 28 psi has a real chattery high frequency feel, particularly when you are going very fast? Like a high frequency buzz? And then on the same set up and trail you drop the pressure to 20 psi and 90% of that high frequency trail buzz (not the bumps, but the buzz) goes away. That is what Berd's feel like, and it's obvious pretty much right away. I ride an Enduro bike for everything and the fact that I have lots of suspension has not removed my ability to feel these things at all.

    They also have a certain amount of give when you start pedaling that makes them feel, not as fast. When you stand on the pedals they feel a bit soft. However numbers from people that time this sort of stuff show Berd's to be faster, and I've personally never been faster in all regards, particularly when on the power. My opinion is that much like the give in Onyx hubs (a sensation I pointed out 3 strokes in to my first ride, never having heard of them before that day), you get it all back. It's sort of like standing on a spring that pushes back at ya when you step off of it.

    The difference between standard spokes and Berd's is significant and they are certainly easier to compare/ contrast differences than say different tires (even in the same performance category) are noticeable.

    I don't ride HTs or Plus bikes so I can't speak to those experiences.

  146. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    I've been interested in trying the Berds for some time - recently purchased a new lightweight DH frame, excited to have a nimbler DH bike than the tanks I've been riding. Bought some new DT Swiss rims and hubs and they're sitting in a box ready to ship. Although the first thought of some is these spokes might not be the best choice for a DH wheel, if anything the weight savings will be much more significant than a XC wheel as I would usually run straight gauge 2.0 spokes. And if there is a compliance effect so much the better.

    I filled out the form on Berd's website and was about to click on buy like I've been planning on for months, but I stopped and just kept looking at that number - $700 including shipping (64 spokes, black)

    And I just can't quite bring myself to to click it - the box is sitting in my way every day, I need to make a decision and get these wheels built.

    Not looking for any input, just thinking out loud. As a confessed equipment geek, where do I draw the line ?
    I'm now building up my second wheelset with berd spokes (first set went on my sb100 the second is going on my sb150). I've definitely noticed the reduction in vibration/chatter hence why I'm putting them on the long travel bike too.

    Everyone is talking about the trail feel but also don't forget the weight savings. Considering your saving almost 200g and its rotational (although not as far out as the rim so not quiet as important), its a pretty decent value in terms of grams saved per dollar, vs something like xt>xtr.

    Finally I would like to say that Berd's customer service has been absolutely outstanding, probably the best I've ever dealt with. Any questions I've had have been answered promptly and thoroughly. In addition when I've had issues caused by factors outside of Berd's control they have gone out of their way to help me out even if the issue wasn't caused by them. For example I had one set of berds built with chinese carbon rims, rear rim broke (not at all berd's fault) they offered me a really great price to rebuild it. Not to bore anyone with too many details but I've had two other instances were I had issues with my wheels (both not Berd's fault) and they helped me out.

    Long story short between the compliant feel, the light weight, and the excellent customer service, I strongly recommend berd spokes, and I'll personally be using them for any wheel builds in the future.

  147. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    I've been interested in trying the Berds for some time - recently purchased a new lightweight DH frame, excited to have a nimbler DH bike than the tanks I've been riding. Bought some new DT Swiss rims and hubs and they're sitting in a box ready to ship. Although the first thought of some is these spokes might not be the best choice for a DH wheel, if anything the weight savings will be much more significant than a XC wheel as I would usually run straight gauge 2.0 spokes. And if there is a compliance effect so much the better.

    I filled out the form on Berd's website and was about to click on buy like I've been planning on for months, but I stopped and just kept looking at that number - $700 including shipping (64 spokes, black)

    And I just can't quite bring myself to to click it - the box is sitting in my way every day, I need to make a decision and get these wheels built.

    Not looking for any input, just thinking out loud. As a confessed equipment geek, where do I draw the line ?
    The line can be drawn at the wallet, wife/significant other, higher priorities, ...

    In the grand scheme of things, a Berd build is not as pricey as some of the crazy high-end wheel builds.

    Depending on what you ride and how much air you are comfortable with, Iíd be more concerned about the hoops selected more than the spokes.

    My wheel set has been in action for ~15 months now and has been awesome for XC/Mountain riding in the US mid-Atlantic region. I built them on (what Suns_PSD said are ďscary lightĒ) Nextie NXT29UL30 offset spoke hole rims and they are good as new except for some rock scratches here and there haha




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  148. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    I've been interested in trying the Berds for some time - recently purchased a new lightweight DH frame, excited to have a nimbler DH bike than the tanks I've been riding. Bought some new DT Swiss rims and hubs and they're sitting in a box ready to ship. Although the first thought of some is these spokes might not be the best choice for a DH wheel, if anything the weight savings will be much more significant than a XC wheel as I would usually run straight gauge 2.0 spokes. And if there is a compliance effect so much the better.

    I filled out the form on Berd's website and was about to click on buy like I've been planning on for months, but I stopped and just kept looking at that number - $700 including shipping (64 spokes, black)

    And I just can't quite bring myself to to click it - the box is sitting in my way every day, I need to make a decision and get these wheels built.

    Not looking for any input, just thinking out loud. As a confessed equipment geek, where do I draw the line ?
    I LOVE Berds, but simply would not choose them for this application. Every single Pro DH racer pretty much uses the same Aluminum wheels (EX471s maybe?). I'd simply copy their set up and throw Cushcore in them. They will be compliant and inexpensive and you have a lift to get to the top.

    DH Assagias roll so horribly anyways that 250 grams isn't going to matter at all.

  149. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Sounds like you've been watching a lot of Alex Jones, to me.
    Alex Jones is the greatest political Commentator of our lifetime! Just kidding. He is an idiot that just so happens to live near me. My neighbor is a Sherriff has been called to his house several times, 1x he was called out multiple times in one day to deal with his coked up and drunk ass and his baby momma, or so I'm told.

    To top it off I have another neighbor that rents an office space for his music business and the address use to be Alex Jones', and lots of crazies come by to get the 'scoop'.

    Freakin' nut bags.

  150. #350
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    I never disputed the claims that they damp vibration and in fact, I've said that they should, given my experience with the same material Berd uses. However, damping high-frequency vibration is not the same as somehow making the wheel more compliant, which implies rim flex that you won't get in a properly tensioned wheel.

    Try this: take a steel-spoked wheel and pluck a spoke. You get a nice metallic ring that you can hear, that decays fairly slowly, correct? Take a wheel with Berd spokes and do the same. You'll hear a somewhat deeper note, and it probably decays faster, right? That's all they do.

    So, you can hear the sounds from the spokes - and the difference - but you can't feel them, can you?

    The point here is that the spokes are damping high-frequency vibration that will make it to your ears if there's not too much ambient noise, but the likelihood of it making it to your body though the tires, suspension, frame, saddle, grips, cranks, pedals and shoes is basically nil.

    Does Berd provide any vibration characteristics measured at the saddle, handlebar or pedals? That's where meaningful measurement would be made, not just from plucked spokes.

    As for the perceived smoothness, I've experienced something similar with some carbon fiber road wheels wheels I built a few years ago. The rims were stiff as hell, but they had foam cores that really damped vibration. Although they were a lot stiffer than the box-section rims on my other wheels, they were dead quiet and that made them seem smoother, even though they offered essentially no compliance by comparison. Note also that on a road bike, you have higher pressure tires that actually do transmit high-frequency road buzz that you can feel through the rigid frame and fork. As soon as I hit something significant in the road, the heavy jolt made it clear that there was no compliance on offer.

    On an MTB, you have lots of compliance in the tires, plus whatever suspension the bike has. Wheels have very little compliance, on the order of less than 1mm in most cases. Do you really think you can tell the difference between a wheel that gives you 1mm of compliance vs. one that gives you 1.5mm, when you have tires that provide 50-70mm, plus whatever your suspension adds? That on a surface that may vary from smooth rock to bouncy roots to soft mud in a matter of a few feet? That simply doesn't make any sense. What you're perceiving with Berd spoke is not added compliance; that's physically impossible.

    Look, if you like wheels with Berd spokes and you're happy with them, that's terrific and in the end, it's probably all that matters.

  151. #351
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    Hey, dude! If many guys told (you), that they FEEL THE DIFFERENCE between riding the traditional wheels and the Berds... then, probably - THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.
    And you have to go for your own practical experience - just to check out and know, if it is so or not... only then you could try to convince others in some or another conclusions.
    Not BEFORE... not INSTEAD OF... only AFTER!

  152. #352
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    Bnystrom, you clearly are not interested in Berd spokes. You should move on as your not doing well at convincing guys that have ridden them (or wheel reviewers apparently) and you've made up your mind.

    PS. I don't hear anything as I play loud music in my ears while I ride.

  153. #353
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    Berd spokes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bnystrom View Post
    I never disputed the claims that they damp vibration and in fact, I've said that they should, given my experience with the same material Berd uses. However, damping high-frequency vibration is not the same as somehow making the wheel more compliant, which implies rim flex that you won't get in a properly tensioned wheel.

    Try this: take a steel-spoked wheel and pluck a spoke...

    Yada, yada, yada...

    Look, if you like wheels with Berd spokes and you're happy with them, that's terrific and in the end, it's probably all that matters.
    Like dayummm- You need therapy with all the hyper-over-analysis you are bringing.l!

    Really small stuff is super scary when viewed with an electron microscope. Take a deep breath and seek a higher level view of things!




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  154. #354
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    I'd be interested to see if there's any difference in measured torsional stiffness. Force required for deflection of the rim torsionally relative to the hub. The only useful number would be with the wheel build, to see how all the interfaces function, vs. the theoretical.
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  155. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    I LOVE Berds, but simply would not choose them for this application. Every single Pro DH racer pretty much uses the same Aluminum wheels (EX471s maybe?). I'd simply copy their set up and throw Cushcore in them. They will be compliant and inexpensive and you have a lift to get to the top.

    DH Assagias roll so horribly anyways that 250 grams isn't going to matter at all.
    This new DH bike (Aurum HSP) is so light and pedals so well that I threw a dropper post and 11 spd on it and was going to use it as a Spring bike (we have a fair bit of winch & plummet double black trails in the local area) so I thought I'd just take it that extra step. The Aurum and my trail bike are both 110/148 boost so with just a cap change I can swap wheels and so I was also envisioning these as some super Enduro wheels and as an experiment before I took a chance on Berd's for my trail wheels.

    But that's good advice, its just not worth it for this application. I'll try them on my trail wheels. I love my trail wheels so I'm a little shy to mess with them, but the one problem I do have is breaking spokes 2-3 times a season, usually at the worst time, and I never seem to have the correct spare laying around. If I can avoid that problem and save some grams of rotating weight I'm all for it.

  156. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    This new DH bike (Aurum HSP) is so light and pedals so well that I threw a dropper post and 11 spd on it and was going to use it as a Spring bike (we have a fair bit of winch & plummet double black trails in the local area) so I thought I'd just take it that extra step. The Aurum and my trail bike are both 110/148 boost so with just a cap change I can swap wheels and so I was also envisioning these as some super Enduro wheels and as an experiment before I took a chance on Berd's for my trail wheels.

    But that's good advice, its just not worth it for this application. I'll try them on my trail wheels. I love my trail wheels so I'm a little shy to mess with them, but the one problem I do have is breaking spokes 2-3 times a season, usually at the worst time, and I never seem to have the correct spare laying around. If I can avoid that problem and save some grams of rotating weight I'm all for it.
    Have you pedaled the Aurum yet? I just took a peak at it and even with a great weight and killer high pivot rear suspension design it's hard to imagine it could pedal well just because I suspect (didn't verify) that the rear suspension kinematics have very low Anti-Squat intentionally and that the STA is slack and with that much sag will get a lot slacker quickly. I mean it's a dedicated DH bike, not a Super Enduro rig. It was never meant to be pedaled and absolute weight is just 1 aspect of how a bike pedals.

    I have kicked around the idea of building a Super Foxy (I have a Foxy 29 now and it pedals and weighs like it's a 100mm travel bike, it's insane how it pedals!) with my lightweight Enduro built and using a 180mm travel DC fork such as the Bartlett or even the Boxxer. I could build a bike that pedaled really well, that weighed 31#s easily, that was capable of anything.

    But then reality hits and I'd by taking my 7 year old girl on XC trails on a DC bike and I'd feel a little silly, not to mention getting clobbered by guys on trail bikes! Ha.

    Overkill for my terrain and skill level generally, even though we have pockets of very rough and steep terrain locally.

  157. #357
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    I have xc25 wheelset on my ss. Love them

    Berd spokes.-71786fc1-d606-4618-a4c2-91c0c73cbed9.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    The only useful number would be with the ride quality.

    Just my $.02...

  159. #359
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    I still LOVE these spokes and frankly the entire wheelset. They have required no maintenance, ride great, and the spokes themselves are nearly new looking still.

  160. #360
    I am Walt
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    I still LOVE these spokes and frankly the entire wheelset. They have required no maintenance, ride great, and the spokes themselves are nearly new looking still.
    Same here, and I have them on two bikes now - my SB100, and my SS.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Ride more; post less...

  161. #361
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    So do these rip the side of your hub off if you catch a spoke then? I would rather break a spoke than a hub personally. I once broke a hub in a mavic front wheel when I caught the spoke in a log. It was a real bummer, though mavic covered it under warranty.

  162. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    So do these rip the side of your hub off if you catch a spoke then? I would rather break a spoke than a hub personally. I once broke a hub in a mavic front wheel when I caught the spoke in a log. It was a real bummer, though mavic covered it under warranty.
    This is a rare enough circumstance that I don't think it will be tested or ever be an issue. Besides, you broke your hub with a non Berd spoke!
    Berd spokes are awesome and I'll never build a wheel set without them again. But then, I don't build that many sets of wheels.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

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