Anti Seize, Best Friend or Mortal Enemy? Or, Perhaps Both?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Anti Seize, Best Friend or Mortal Enemy? Or, Perhaps Both?

    I am finishing up my latest wheel build (Nextie Carbon Rims with DT Swiss 350 Hubs) and so far, its has gone relatively well. This is my first carbon build and the first time I have used Permetex gray anti seize as my nipple lube of choice.....

    I will say that the anti seize has made a world of difference in the tensioning of the spokes especially with the use of Aluminum nipples. My previous attempts at using the aluminum nipples resulted in miserable failures and the switch back to brass. However, anti seize has changed that. Using it almost makes the aluminum thread on like brass (almost).

    With that said, the anti seize is a mess. It is on everything, and the very same properties that make it great as a lube, also make it very difficult to remove. I have tried mineral spirits (it works, sorta mostly just spreads the metal flakes around), soapy water (nope not a chance), and maxima suspension clean. The suspension clean works well doesn't harm the carbon rims, but it eats the black coating off the spokes.... WD-40 is the next thing I am going to try to remove it.

    So I ask all of you Anti Seize Friend or Foe and why. Also any tips on application and removal are welcome

  2. #2
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    Citrus oil cleaner takes it right off and doesn't harm any other finishes.

    I don't use it for wheel builds. Antiseize hardens over time. End of story. I use oil

  3. #3
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    I use Permatex anti-seize on all my wheel builds. I apply a dab to the spoke threads using a q-tip and around the spoke hole in the rim from the tire side using a nipple threaded backwards onto a spoke. Apply the anti-seize to the nipple where it contacts the opening in the rim and use the spoke to insert the nipple into the spoke hole from the tire side to apply the anti-seize around the spoke hole opening. Once there is tension on the spokes I use isopropyl alcohol to remove any anti-seize residue and continue with the wheel build. Isopropyl alcohol does a great job at removing any residue. Just don't use to much to avoid washing the anti-seize from the spoke threads and nipple seat. A slightly dampened cloth or paper towel is sufficient.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by drifter248 View Post
    I use Permatex anti-seize on all my wheel builds. I apply a dab to the spoke threads using a q-tip and around the spoke hole in the rim from the tire side using a nipple threaded backwards onto a spoke. Apply the anti-seize to the nipple where it contacts the opening in the rim and use the spoke to insert the nipple into the spoke hole from the tire side to apply the anti-seize around the spoke hole opening. Once there is tension on the spokes I use isopropyl alcohol to remove any anti-seize residue and continue with the wheel build. Isopropyl alcohol does a great job at removing any residue. Just don't use to much to avoid washing the anti-seize from the spoke threads and nipple seat. A slightly dampened cloth or paper towel is sufficient.
    What % isopropyl Alcohol do you use? The typical 50% or higher?

  5. #5
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    I've been using Pedro's Ice Wax 2.0 (mostly because I had it laying around), but I'm guessing any viscous lubricant will do. I apply a drop per nipple and let it set overnight (an hour or two would be sufficient). Makes for a very clean install.

    I do have a question...well, more of a comment. Using aluminum nipples with carbon fiber rims is pretty risky. Galvanic corrosion is a real problem, even with anodized nipples as it only takes a small scratch in the coating to promote the process (smaller scratches are actually worse than no coating). I would consider switching to brass.





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    Last edited by compengr; 01-24-2018 at 06:21 PM.

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    You can usually find 91% at the pharmacy. I order 99% by the gallon.

  7. #7
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    I use A-S a lot for work, and on my Jeep, yes it's messy, just*looking* at the bottle you will get it on your hands hah.
    I haven't decided if I'm going to use it on my spoke threads or just a drop of oil, spoke prep, or grease.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shark View Post
    I use A-S a lot for work, and on my Jeep, yes it's messy, just*looking* at the bottle you will get it on your hands hah.
    I haven't decided if I'm going to use it on my spoke threads or just a drop of oil, spoke prep, or grease.
    I used to dip spoke threads in grease, which worked fine but was messy. Tried low viscosity lubricants before that, which was, from what I recall, worse.

    These thicker wax based chain lubes (see post above) are nice because they run down the inside of the nipple, coat the threads, and dry. Little to no mess.

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  9. #9
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    I use Rock N Roll Lubes Nipple Cream on spoke threads. Seems to be water based. Cleans up super easy.
    About NevRSieze... Every winter, we have to service three big chillers at work. We go through probably six cans of NevrSieze that we apply with paint brushes. We end up covered in it no matter how careful. It's the bronze colored stuff which is more hard core than the silver. Anyway, after washing my hands with Fast Orange, my nails and cuticles were still all black. When I got home, I washed the dishes by hand with Dawn and hot water. All ready for date night after that. I was pretty surprised but it worked really well.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by compengr View Post

    I do have a question...well, more of a comment. Using aluminum nipples with carbon fiber rims is pretty risky. Galvanic corrosion is a real problem, even with anodized nipples as it only takes a small scratch in the coating to promote the process (smaller scratches are actually worse than no coating). I would consider switching to brass.

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

    I read up on that and have also researched the topic quite well. check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFdG2NgIc7s around the 9 min mark there is a test utilizing various aluminum nipples in a carbon rim that have been exposed to tire sealant. The results of the test brought the conclusion that sealant (or water if extrapolated out) would not cause corrosion.

    That does not mean that salt water or regular exposure to nasty water would not cause corrosion. However, where I live there is no salt water for a least 50 miles, and I don't ride wet trails and rarely come into contact with water on them. Add the anti seize that I have coated the nipple to rim interface with and the use of high quality nipples (sapim) I am not sure I will experience severe issue with corrosion. If i do, I can switch brass if it becomes and issue.

  11. #11
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    Use a paintbrush for anti seize. You only need a thin coat.

    I like using it because it works about 4 gagillion times better than anything else, and it doesnt run or make a mess. I paint all the threads before hand. If the spoke touches the rim it'll transfer a tiny bit, but since its such a light coat its pretty minor. Alcohol cleanup works well.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Use a paintbrush for anti seize. You only need a thin coat.

    I like using it because it works about 4 gagillion times better than anything else, and it doesnt run or make a mess. I paint all the threads before hand. If the spoke touches the rim it'll transfer a tiny bit, but since its such a light coat its pretty minor. Alcohol cleanup works well.
    I agree about how well it works. I did use a paint brush on the rear wheel and then painted a thick layer on the inside of the rim and the nipple to rim interface. I still made a mess.... The front rim i applied the A/S to the nipple rim interface by using an inverted nipple on a unused spoke. Then applied the A/S to the inside of the nipple via dental pick and that made a mess..... Maybe I am just a messy person?

    I think I may stop off at the walgreens on the way home to get a bottle of alcohol, and maybe something to clean the bike with to!

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.J.Christy View Post
    I read up on that and have also researched the topic quite well. check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFdG2NgIc7s around the 9 min mark there is a test utilizing various aluminum nipples in a carbon rim that have been exposed to tire sealant. The results of the test brought the conclusion that sealant (or water if extrapolated out) would not cause corrosion.

    That does not mean that salt water or regular exposure to nasty water would not cause corrosion. However, where I live there is no salt water for a least 50 miles, and I don't ride wet trails and rarely come into contact with water on them. Add the anti seize that I have coated the nipple to rim interface with and the use of high quality nipples (sapim) I am not sure I will experience severe issue with corrosion. If i do, I can switch brass if it becomes and issue.
    Your call. Not worth the risk to me. Can't see the nipple failing and the price of failure can be steep.

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by compengr View Post
    Your call. Not worth the risk to me. Can't see the nipple failing and the price of failure can be steep.

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    Are you referring to internal nipples? If so you are correct, that was the issue with the Reynolds and envy rims. They we're using internal nipples and you couldn't see the corrosion. However, with external nipples you will see white powder develop at the rim nipple interface long before failure occurs.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.J.Christy View Post
    Are you referring to internal nipples? If so you are correct, that was the issue with the Reynolds and envy rims. They we're using internal nipples and you couldn't see the corrosion. However, with external nipples you will see white powder develop at the rim nipple interface long before failure occurs.
    No, regular nipples. The part that will make intimate contact with the rim is not going to be visible, so the corrosion will likely not be visible. In my mind, this isn't an "if", but a "when" problem. Not worth the risk, to me anyway.

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by compengr View Post
    No, regular nipples. The part that will make intimate contact with the rim is not going to be visible, so the corrosion will likely not be visible. In my mind, this isn't an "if", but a "when" problem. Not worth the risk, to me anyway.

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    I appreciate your opinion and thank you for the input, however, I think we will have to agree to partially disagree.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.J.Christy View Post
    I appreciate your opinion and thank you for the input, however, I think we will have to agree to partially disagree.
    Fair enough. But don't say I didn't warn ya

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  19. #19
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    Toilet bowl wax..yup..save the chain lube for chains..
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1niceride View Post
    Toilet bowl wax..yup..save the chain lube for chains..
    I assume you mean fresh toilet bowl wax 😋

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    Quote Originally Posted by W.J.Christy View Post
    I assume you mean fresh toilet bowl wax 
    Actually I have...by accident..tasted both new and old wax..they taste the same..just so ya know..

    Bees wax is very useful stuff. Wanna keep water out of bolt threads wax is best imho.

    I have used it for cable lube also. Sometimes ya gotta run what ya got.
    lean forward

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1niceride View Post
    Actually I have...by accident..tasted both new and old wax..they taste the same..just so ya know..

    Bees wax is very useful stuff. Wanna keep water out of bolt threads wax is best imho.

    I have used it for cable lube also. Sometimes ya gotta run what ya got.
    Honestly I have tasted neither, but was curious about using it for spoke and nipple lube. It just made sense. It didn't cross my mind, though, to use a toilet bowl wax gasket.

    I am going to replace the nipples on a set of rims I bought and I may just try that!!! Thanks for the tip!

  23. #23
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    I used this anti seize stick and it was super easy with very little mess. Will use again on my next set of wheels.

    AGS 0.43oz Stick Spark Plug Anti-Seize (TMK-1) - Anti-Seize Compound - Ace Hardware
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    Being a plumber for 40 years..I find Teflon pipe compound is good on threads as it will harden somewhat but the fastener can be removed easily in the future.

    Use root destroyer for sewer lines on a roof that has moss on it and the moss will die quickly...and also the pretty flowers the wife planted near the roof eves...she still hates me..

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.J.Christy View Post
    I agree about how well it works. I did use a paint brush on the rear wheel and then painted a thick layer on the inside of the rim and the nipple to rim interface. I still made a mess....l:
    It's only useful on the threads! Trying to lube the rim with it definitely makes a mess. Oil is fine there.

  26. #26
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    I've used ASC on my last 4 wheelbuilds and they seem to be holding up better than before. I did have some issues with corrosion before using it, but so far, now a few years in, they are solid. The corrosion issues were usually showing up after a year or so. I could just not build with aluminum nipples, but I like to experiment.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.J.Christy View Post
    With that said, the anti seize is a mess. It is on everything, and the very same properties that make it great as a lube, also make it very difficult to remove.
    Good to see that you're upping your mechanic's game to the next level. Lots of folks "get by" with grease, oil, dog slobber, or whatever. Anti-seize is what's used by the experts who require perfect performance out of their hardware. You won't see SpaceX spec'ing earwax for the assembly of their rockets. Nowhere in the manual does Hitachi mention goosepoo when assembling their nuclear reactors. Real engineers and technicians use real anti-seize.

    The use of anti-seize or any thread lubricant is intended to prevent galling, which is particularly problematic when dealing with fasteners of aluminum, titanium, and stainless steel. Well, guess what bikes are made of. These metals have a microscopically thin oxide layer that is very hard. Tightening a fastener creates a lot of pressure and heat over a very small area. When subjected to those extremes, the oxide layer can grind away, and the underlying metal can "weld" itself to the other side of the fastener. That's a problem.

    The other condition that anti-seize can mitigate is the effects of corrosion on the fastener. Its mere presence can reduce corrosion, but the anti-seize can also prevent the "locking up" of a fastener as the metal corrodes.

    While all the "improvised" products last for a while, they eventually migrate out of the fastener, wash away, or oxidize themselves. The clean up issue that you're experiencing is indicative of the efficacy of the anti-seize that you're using. It says and says, and just won't go away. That's what you WANT in between your stainless screw and your aluminum stem. You want the anti-seize to stay there FOREVER.

    If you're having a problem with clean up, start being more careful in the application and assembly. The brush that comes in the can of anti-seize is ridiculous. If I need a LOT, like on a 1" bolt, I'll use an acid brush. But for anything small, like on your bike, I use a chopstick. Dip the chopstick in the can, rub it on the fastener, don't get any anyplace else. Have a clean, dry rag handy. If I get it on my fingers, I wipe it off immediately. There will invariably be a little mess around the fastener when I'm done. Again, wipe it off immediately with a clean, dry rag.

  28. #28
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    OP, I use silver anti-seize and I clean up first by wiping as much off as can with an old rag, then sometimes if there wasn't a lot, alcohol will do, if not as mentioned, citrus cleaner like Gu-Gone works wonders.

    As to alu nipples and carbon, yeah, I won't do that down here, too much salt in the equation already and too many rocks, if it's a carbon rim, it's going to get laced with brass nipples.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyIron View Post

    The other condition that anti-seize can mitigate is the effects of corrosion on the fastener. Its mere presence can reduce corrosion, but the anti-seize can also prevent the "locking up" of a fastener as the metal corrodes.
    Exactly. Which is also why I felt it the best product to use on a carbon to Al interface. Its presence should mitigate most of the corrosion experienced, that and a lack of electrolyte.


    Quote Originally Posted by RustyIron View Post
    If you're having a problem with clean up, start being more careful in the application and assembly. The brush that comes in the can of anti-seize is ridiculous. If I need a LOT, like on a 1" bolt, I'll use an acid brush. But for anything small, like on your bike, I use a chopstick. Dip the chopstick in the can, rub it on the fastener, don't get any anyplace else. Have a clean, dry rag handy. If I get it on my fingers, I wipe it off immediately. There will invariably be a little mess around the fastener when I'm done. Again, wipe it off immediately with a clean, dry rag.
    Yep I agree with your sentiments. I have been using it for years in automotive applications and only recently starting using it on my bike.

    To apply, I bought a set of acrylic paint brushes chose the smallest one (About 1/4" wide), cut off the bristles to make it nice and stiff, and dabbed anti seize around the nipple hole from the tire side of the rim for the rear wheel. This worked well however, when inserting the nipples the spokes tend to move about in the nipple hole as I work around the rim causing the anti-seize to coat the shank of the nipple and consequently, the area of the rim that is adjacent to the nipple. It then gets smeared if contacted. Using that same brush I applied anti seize to the threads of the spokes but only on about the bottom 2/3 of the threads as once the spokes are inserted into the nipples, the anti seize would be carried up the entire length of the engaged threads via friction. I also applied a small dab at the spoke head (rear rim only) as the hub was a straight pull and I was hoping to mitigate and corrosion/sticking issues due to that bimetallic interface. That did make the spokes turn more freely during tensioning but I believe it will help in the long run.

    For the front rim (the hub used J bend spokes), I used and inverted nipple on an extra spoke and placed a very small dab on A/S on the flange of the nipple. I then inserted the nipple from the tire side and applied the A/S to the nipple to rim interface. I then applied A/S to the inside of the nipples from the top (hub facing) side using a dental pick. I applied the A/S to the nipple only as again friction would cause the anti seize to be carried along the length of the engaged threads. Still it was messy due to the spoke movement during the lacing process.

    Perhaps what I consider messy is normal but considering how well it all went, I think it was worth it. I did find a cleaning method that works quite well for me. I used WD-40 applied to a rag and then wiped down the spokes, nipples and rims, being careful to only wipe on a layer and not allow drips into the nipple rim interface. I then removed the WD-40 with 91% isopropyl alcohol applied to a fresh rag once again being careful not to allow drips. The rims and spokes are now completely clean and free of A/S in the areas I don't want it.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    It's only useful on the threads! Trying to lube the rim with it definitely makes a mess. Oil is fine there.
    I would agree with that on a rim that is not carbon. The use of A/S in that area will aid in the prevention of corrosion in much the same was the stuff you spray on your battery terminals to keep them from corroding. Not a perfect solution, but it will help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1niceride View Post
    Being a plumber for 40 years..I find Teflon pipe compound is good on threads as it will harden somewhat but the fastener can be removed easily in the future.
    Are you referring to the white thread tape used on pipe threads to seal them up? Or is there another compound that you can brush on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfield View Post
    I used this anti seize stick and it was super easy with very little mess. Will use again on my next set of wheels.

    AGS 0.43oz Stick Spark Plug Anti-Seize (TMK-1) - Anti-Seize Compound - Ace Hardware

    The next build I will try that! Nice tip!

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    It would seem that saving less than 40g over two wheels is worth quite a bit of work and risk. Assuming the bike won't get wet seems like an odd justification for an outdoor device. It would also seem that marine anti-seize might be the best choice if this type of stuff is to be used.

    Everything listed here https://www.antiseize.com/PDFs/how-t...-antiseize.pdf
    indicates that the marine stuff has properties that would be beneficial.

    Despite all of the posturing about "experts" and such I've used shocking little anti-seize over a career in the transportation industry. It is specifically not allowed on lug nut or lug bolt applications. Even Permatex's own data sheet indicates this. It also cannot be used in applications where a tightening torque is specified unless the torque spec is specified as "lubricated" threads.

    As an example a 12mm stud 10.9 grade (think lug nut stud) has an advised torque of 90 ft-lb dry, and only 68 ft-lb with lube. This considers the working tensile strength of the fastener and not the type of bolted interface. So with anti-seize you either drive around with lug nuts tightened to a low value (proper torque, lubed), or you over tighten the fastening system by a sizable amount (dry torque, lubed). In fact, tightening the lubed fastener to 90# then loads the fastener past the elastic limit (permanent elongation, eventual weakening).

    A more typical 6mm 8.8 grade fastener on a bike suffers from exactly the same problem (91.7 in-lb vs 68.7 in-lb). The clamping force goes from 1368# to well over 1500#. Are there dents in your carbon bars? Is your dropper post sticking? If you used a torque wrench with dry specs with lube you are over tightening. Sometimes it matters, sometimes not.

    What does this have to do with spokes? Nothing. We tighten nipples until the tension in the spokes is right, they are just easier to turn with lube.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by adaycj View Post
    It would seem that saving less than 40g over two wheels is worth quite a bit of work and risk. Assuming the bike won't get wet seems like an odd justification for an outdoor device. It would also seem that marine anti-seize might be the best choice if this type of stuff is to be used.
    Not to be rude, and this is not directed specifically at you adaycj, but truthfully I didn't start this thread to debate the merits of use of aluminum over brass or brass over aluminum. I made my choice based on my knowledge and research (and seeing as how I am materials and welding engineer with 10 years of experience I feel I can make a good informed decision) and I shall live with the consequences of it be they good or bad. If folks would like to fire up the carbon rim aluminum nipple debate once more, feel free to do so elsewhere, but for this thread, lets please stick to the topic at hand of the use of anti seize for wheel building and how to remove it.

    I do appreciate the input given and have found some very useful tips. Thank you to all who have contributed thus far.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyIron View Post
    Anti-seize is what's used by the experts who require perfect performance out of their hardware. You won't see SpaceX spec'ing earwax for the assembly of their rockets. Nowhere in the manual does Hitachi mention goosepoo when assembling their nuclear reactors. Real engineers and technicians use real anti-seize.

    I do appreciate quality work but a bicycle wheel is not a rocket ship and I don't think it requires the same degree of precision. I've got 20 y/o wheels with alloy nips that are in fine shape and still easy to true. Built with oil. I think anti-seize works great but it's not required.



    Quote Originally Posted by adaycj View Post
    It would seem that saving less than 40g over two wheels is worth quite a bit of work and risk
    Naw, no extra work or risk IME.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.J.Christy View Post
    ...................the first time I have used Permetex gray anti seize as my nipple lube of choice.....the anti seize is a mess. It is on everything, and the very same properties that make it great as a lube, also make it very difficult to remove. So I ask all of you Anti Seize Friend or Foe and why. Also any tips on application and removal are welcome.
    I've been using it (and the same can of it) for 40+ years. I use only enough to fill the spoke threads (that's why my can has lasted so long) and use the brush from the can. I use latex gloves to prevent any mess on the hands and I clean up wheel parts with Isopropyl Alcohol. I don't use anti-seize on the nipple seats as I prefer to send a drop of oil down the nipple shaft to its seat when the spokes have very minor tension on them. That's it. Simple, effective and not messy at all.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I do appreciate quality work but a bicycle wheel is not a rocket ship and I don't think it requires the same degree of precision. I've got 20 y/o wheels with alloy nips that are in fine shape and still easy to true. Built with oil. I think anti-seize works great but it's not required.
    .
    I have read that oil is a good choice. Do you use a light oil like 3in1 or chain lube (opposite ends of the spectrum I know), something heavier more akin to gear oil, or flax seed oil?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    I've been using it (and the same can of it) for 40+ years. I use only enough to fill the spoke threads (that's why my can has lasted so long) and use the brush from the can. I use latex gloves to prevent any mess on the hands and I clean up wheel parts with Isopropyl Alcohol. I don't use anti-seize on the nipple seats as I prefer to send a drop of oil down the nipple shaft to its seat when the spokes have very minor tension on them. That's it. Simple, effective and not messy at all.
    I am amazed at your ability to not come out covered in silver flakes!!!! Especially with the use of the brush in the can. I know if i tried it that way, I would be silver for weeks.

    I am beginning to think the A/S on the threads and a drop of oil on the nipple shaft might be the better option for the future.

    Thanks for the input!

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    Quote Originally Posted by W.J.Christy View Post
    I have read that oil is a good choice. Do you use a light oil like 3in1 or chain lube (opposite ends of the spectrum I know), something heavier more akin to gear oil, or flax seed oil?

    I've used tri-flo a lot with good results, most likely what I used on my 20 y/o road wheels. I've used various other oils though and they seemed to work well too, Phil's tenacious and the old standby linseed oil are a few that I've also used quite a bit successfully.

    I'm not saying that oil is the best, anti-seize might indeed have some advantages but just reporting that IME oil works plenty good and isn't as messy.
    I brake for stinkbugs

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    ^^^+1. I use the bike grease I happen to have on hand...Tri-Flow grease, Park Took, Phil Wood or whatever on the threads and nipple head. I do have various anti-size greases and assembly lubes, but they're all way messier to use and I doubt they'd offer any substantive benefit.
    Do the math.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.J.Christy View Post
    I am amazed at your ability to not come out covered in silver flakes!!!! Especially with the use of the brush in the can. I know if i tried it that way, I would be silver for weeks.
    I think it's mostly a matter of self-preservation - trying hard not to get the stuff all over everything, including the cat. I lube the spokes, with a minimally filled brush, about 4 at a time and If I get too much on the threads I roll the spoke threads on a piece of cardboard to remove any excess (excess = anything more than what fills the threads to their top).

    I am beginning to think the A/S on the threads and a drop of oil on the nipple shaft might be the better option for the future.
    It's what I gravitated to over many years and it works fine for me. Others' methods probably work just as well. As long as something is used.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by adaycj View Post
    It would seem that saving less than 40g over two wheels is worth quite a bit of work and risk. Assuming the bike won't get wet seems like an odd justification for an outdoor device. It would also seem that marine anti-seize might be the best choice if this type of stuff is to be used.

    Everything listed here https://www.antiseize.com/PDFs/how-t...-antiseize.pdf
    indicates that the marine stuff has properties that would be beneficial.

    Despite all of the posturing about "experts" and such I've used shocking little anti-seize over a career in the transportation industry. It is specifically not allowed on lug nut or lug bolt applications. Even Permatex's own data sheet indicates this. It also cannot be used in applications where a tightening torque is specified unless the torque spec is specified as "lubricated" threads.

    As an example a 12mm stud 10.9 grade (think lug nut stud) has an advised torque of 90 ft-lb dry, and only 68 ft-lb with lube. This considers the working tensile strength of the fastener and not the type of bolted interface. So with anti-seize you either drive around with lug nuts tightened to a low value (proper torque, lubed), or you over tighten the fastening system by a sizable amount (dry torque, lubed). In fact, tightening the lubed fastener to 90# then loads the fastener past the elastic limit (permanent elongation, eventual weakening).

    A more typical 6mm 8.8 grade fastener on a bike suffers from exactly the same problem (91.7 in-lb vs 68.7 in-lb). The clamping force goes from 1368# to well over 1500#. Are there dents in your carbon bars? Is your dropper post sticking? If you used a torque wrench with dry specs with lube you are over tightening. Sometimes it matters, sometimes not.

    What does this have to do with spokes? Nothing. We tighten nipples until the tension in the spokes is right, they are just easier to turn with lube.
    As you point out spokes are set by tension so not an issue, but I cannot tell you the frustration I have had when contacting manufactures to ask if their torque spec is wet or dry. I have been told by manufactures incorrectly it doesnít matter. Thomson is the only one I can think of that is clear it is a wet spec, but their main business is aerospace, so I am not surprised.

    For anti seize, I use this stuff. Better base materials than the permatex stuff, but probably makes no difference in reality. For the extra $10 for a lifetime supply, I figured I would spring for the best.

    http://www.antiseize.com/nickel-graf...seize-compound


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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.J.Christy View Post
    Not to be rude, and this is not directed specifically at you adaycj, but truthfully I didn't start this thread to debate the merits of use of aluminum over brass or brass over aluminum. I made my choice based on my knowledge and research (and seeing as how I am materials and welding engineer with 10 years of experience I feel I can make a good informed decision) and I shall live with the consequences of it be they good or bad. If folks would like to fire up the carbon rim aluminum nipple debate once more, feel free to do so elsewhere, but for this thread, lets please stick to the topic at hand of the use of anti seize for wheel building and how to remove it.

    I do appreciate the input given and have found some very useful tips. Thank you to all who have contributed thus far.
    The great part about MTBR is that you don't exactly get to control the content of everyone's posts. If my comments about your nipples is rubbing you the wrong way (see what I did there?), I'll delete it. I can't do much about the quoted text though. That will be up to the respective users.

  44. #44
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    to be fair OP talks alot about brass and aluminum in the opening post

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    Quote Originally Posted by dundundata View Post
    to be fair OP talks alot about brass and aluminum in the opening post
    About difficulties working with aluminum nipples, not galvanic corrosion.

    As someone who works in the composites industry (mat engr, 10+ years ), I saw the potential issue and felt compelled to point it out. We agreed to disagree.

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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by adaycj View Post
    The great part about MTBR is that you don't exactly get to control the content of everyone's posts. If my comments about your nipples is rubbing you the wrong way (see what I did there?), I'll delete it. I can't do much about the quoted text though. That will be up to the respective users.
    You are correct I can't. However I can request that people not delve off topic in the post I created. That way I and others veiwing this thread can glean quickly and easily information that is relevant to the title of the thread. People who comment have an account and can (just as easily as me) create a thread specific to whatever topic the wish, just as I asked them to do with the nipple debate. As such, I asked the nipple debate to be taken elsewhere as it was not relevant to the discussion here.

  47. #47
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    Friend, but a helpful mess. I use it on threads. Wear laytex gloves, try to be careful, but as soon as the brush comes out of the container, the stuff multiplied like Gremlins.


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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by dundundata View Post
    to be fair OP talks alot about brass and aluminum in the opening post
    You're correct I do. I was simply providing all relevant information I had at the time to ensure people could understand the circumstances surrounding my question. Again though, I asked about antiseize and it's use on wheel building and how to clean it not whether I should brass or aluminum nipples as I had assessed the risks and chose a course based on my research.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by compengr View Post

    We agreed to disagree.

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
    To be fair I stated "we agree to paritally disagree" I concluded the risk was worth the reward. Obviously you have different conclusions and that's ok.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.J.Christy View Post
    To be fair I stated "we agree to paritally disagree" I concluded the risk was worth the reward. Obviously you have different conclusions and that's ok.
    Yup, engineers arguing lol

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  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by adaycj View Post
    The great part about MTBR is that you don't exactly get to control the content of everyone's posts. If my comments about your nipples is rubbing you the wrong way (see what I did there?), I'll delete it. I can't do much about the quoted text though. That will be up to the respective users.
    We have a guy at work that rubs his nipples with his ring fingers. Completely out there.
    I like turtles

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by compengr View Post
    Yup, engineers arguing lol

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
    Took the words right out of my mouth. 😀

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    We have a guy at work that rubs his nipples with his ring fingers. Completely out there.
    Not really relevant, but hilarious no less. Thanks for lightening the mood!

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.J.Christy View Post
    Not really relevant, but hilarious no less. Thanks for lightening the mood!
    It's what I do.
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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.J.Christy View Post
    Are you referring to the white thread tape used on pipe threads to seal them up? Or is there another compound that you can brush on?
    Also popular for the outboard rebuild folx is the paste Teflon pipe seal compound..also called pipe dope but I refrain from that term..used on pipe threads. Not tape.

    But if it does not say "for bicycle use" it won't work. And by the way toilet wax will not wash away. I have lifted many 50 year old pottys and the wax is pristine.

    Use Teflon paste on a bottom bracket and it will not squeak ever.

    Many of you must have stock in bicycle products.
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  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cary View Post
    As you point out spokes are set by tension so not an issue, but I cannot tell you the frustration I have had when contacting manufactures to ask if their torque spec is wet or dry. I have been told by manufactures incorrectly it doesnít matter. Thomson is the only one I can think of that is clear it is a wet spec, but their main business is aerospace, so I am not surprised.

    For anti seize, I use this stuff. Better base materials than the permatex stuff, but probably makes no difference in reality. For the extra $10 for a lifetime supply, I figured I would spring for the best.

    NICKEL-GRAF‚ĄĘ - Nickel and Graphite Based Anti-Seize Compound. Anti-Seize Technology


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    If there is a question I use an iEngineer app to look up the tightening specs. It includes both a dry and lubed spec, and lists the specs by bolt charastics only. Custom (vs generic) fasteners take a bit of guessing, but you can get really close. Anything of any quality should be at least grade 8.8 and the rest is measurable dimensions. I round to the nearest NM anyway for almost all bike parts because that is how my torque driver works. Most of Shimano and SRAMs stuff must be dry because the apps dry spec always seems to agree with their stamping on the part.

    The lubed information about Thompson is interesting. The only part I have from that company is a rigid seatpost, and I just overtightened the rail clamp like I always do. A stem on carbon bars would be another story. Good to know.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by adaycj View Post
    If there is a question I use an iEngineer app to look up the tightening specs. It includes both a dry and lubed spec, and lists the specs by bolt charastics only. Custom (vs generic) fasteners take a bit of guessing, but you can get really close. Anything of any quality should be at least grade 8.8 and the rest is measurable dimensions. I round to the nearest NM anyway for almost all bike parts because that is how my torque driver works. Most of Shimano and SRAMs stuff must be dry because the apps dry spec always seems to agree with their stamping on the part.

    The lubed information about Thompson is interesting. The only part I have from that company is a rigid seatpost, and I just overtightened the rail clamp like I always do. A stem on carbon bars would be another story. Good to know.
    I printed a chart of the wet v dry torque specs and taped it to my toolbox so I didnít have to look it up. Call me anal, but I seem to get stuck working on peoples bikes after the shops screws it up.

    To the OP, sorry to wander off topic. Antiseize nipples. Hopefully that helps.


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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1niceride View Post
    Use Teflon paste on a bottom bracket and it will not squeak ever.


    Well I can say for a fact that that isn't true.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Well I can say for a fact that that isn't true.
    Well..well.....maybe poor quality pipe dope...ya could have kept that to yourself
    lean forward

  60. #60
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    I've never used a torque wrench on a bike. The specs are sort of ham-fist prevention more than anything. Bikes rarely spec dry or lubed torque... Because it doesn't matter go ahead and torque a lubed fastener to dry spec, they spec them with way more than enough headroom.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    I've never used a torque wrench on a bike. The specs are sort of ham-fist prevention more than anything. Bikes rarely spec dry or lubed torque... Because it doesn't matter go ahead and torque a lubed fastener to dry spec, they spec them with way more than enough headroom.
    Kinda like baking or cooking. In the beginning one uses measuring devices. After some years one can measure ingredients by eye.
    lean forward

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    I've never used a torque wrench on a bike. The specs are sort of ham-fist prevention more than anything. Bikes rarely spec dry or lubed torque... Because it doesn't matter go ahead and torque a lubed fastener to dry spec, they spec them with way more than enough headroom.
    It is not the fastener that is generally the issue, but can be for stems. An M5 grade 8.8 socket head (4mm allen) used on many stems max torque is 54 in/lb dry and 41 in/lb wet, easily exceeded by hand, which is accurate to about +-30% for an good person. An M6 takes that up to 102/78 in/lb far above most manufactures torque specs, but it doesnít fix the issue of exceeding the clamping torque limit. Exceed that and you will start weakening your bars, even if you donít feel or hear them give.

    Just because you havenít broken anything yet, doesnít mean it wonít happen in the future any more than someone saying they play russian roulette and havenít died yet means they wonít in the future. I prefer to spend the extra minute and minimize my risk as well as the risk for peopleís bikes I work on.


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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    I've never used a torque wrench on a bike. The specs are sort of ham-fist prevention more than anything. Bikes rarely spec dry or lubed torque... Because it doesn't matter go ahead and torque a lubed fastener to dry spec, they spec them with way more than enough headroom.
    More power to ya. But I have a carbon bar that is now unusable, and two brake lever assemblies that are stripped in my garage right now. All from a ham fisted dad that said he doesn't use a torque wrench either. None of them are from dry vs lubed specs. I can tell you from experience if you tighten a 4 bolt stem with 6mm (bigger ones) lubed bolts to the dry spec on an XC set of carbon bars you are lucky if the bars are good. Sadly, I did this to a friends bike, which is what prompted me to start looking things up.

    Like I said, sometimes it matters, sometimes not.

    And the brake parts are Shimano and the bars Easton. It's not like they were cheap junk.

  64. #64
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    Using or not using a torque wrench... if it involves carbon fiber its a MUST. I have one of the preset tools for stems which actually is probably at the bottom end of torque allowance. I put wet blue loctite on threads prior to install.

    Beyond that, never a torque wrench, never an issue. Torque wrench on levers is dumb anyway, the specs are usually too tight. No ability to rotate in a crash. Which is how I tighten them, gently till they take a good amount of pressure to rotate.

    I havent used anti-sieze on anything except brake rotor bolts.

    I may try it on my next wheel build, probably would have been a good idea on my fat bike wheel build since I used alloy nipples and it sees salt. But so far Ive just used the same oil I use for the chain and cables and has worked fine so far (few wheel builds now).

    Teflon tape on the bottom bracket, YEAP! At least Im not the only one, I assumed my squeaks were cause Im big and nothing else was working, so tried that (i have rolls in my tool box as Im a mechanic) and it took care of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by W.J.Christy View Post
    What % isopropyl Alcohol do you use? The typical 50% or higher?
    I use 91% available at most pharmacies.

  66. #66
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    Yes, anti-seize is the best lube for nipple threads. Had a wheel where all the nipples were covered in corrosion and they all spun right off the spokes when I replaced the rim.

    Yes, anti-seize is messy as hell and when I am lazy and replacing a broken spoke on an old wheel I will use a clear grease to make it the opposite of messy.

    I used to think WS spokes + WS nipples spun together easier/smoother than a DT swiss combo but that was 14 years ago.

    According to Sapim their anodized alloy nipples are stronger and more corrosion resistant than nickle plated brass.

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    Built a set of lightbicycle 27.5 new process rims back in 2013. used silver anti-sieze then, and rebuilt them with wider rims in spring 2017. Most of the corrosion was on the top of the nipple head after 4yrs. Anti-sieze really sticks I may put a dab on the top of the nipples for my next build. You never know it sounds simple

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd View Post
    Built a set of lightbicycle 27.5 new process rims back in 2013. used silver anti-sieze then, and rebuilt them with wider rims in spring 2017. Most of the corrosion was on the top of the nipple head after 4yrs. Anti-sieze really sticks I may put a dab on the top of the nipples for my next build. You never know it sounds simple
    The corrosion issues do exist, however, they do seem to vary in severity from person to person. I had read that the use of anti seize helps to combat the corrosion. Its nice to hear that someone with the same basic set up as mine was ok. I guess time will tell for sure but for now all is good.

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    Anti Seize, Best Friend or Mortal Enemy? Or, Perhaps Both?

    Reviving an old thread. Iím about to build up a Nextie carbon wheel set with sapim spokes and inverted brass nipples. Ive always used anti-seize, but I just noticed the permatex brand calls it ďaluminum anti-seize lubricant.Ē Curious if the aluminum part of that makes it not ideal for this application. After seeing the corrosion caused to aluminum nipples in a carbon wheel after only a couple months I swore off aluminum nipples. Permatex says itís ďA highly refined blend of aluminum, copper and graphite lubricants.Ē This is probably a dumb question, but is this anti-seize itself likely to cause a corrosive reaction? If Iím misinterpreting the label, is it still the best spoke prep?
    Last edited by PurpleMtnSlayer; 1 Week Ago at 02:41 PM.

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