Another Tubeless Tire Destroyed by Sealant- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Another Tubeless Tire Destroyed by Sealant

    To be fair to Kenda I put Stans in this tubeless Nevegal about 18 months ago and added new sealant after breaking a spoke. Last night I noticed after riding 25 miles it had a big bubble. I made it home and looked at the tire a couple of hours later and the bubble had popped.

    The record for tires developing bubbles is something like this
    2-Nevegals last about 3 months with Specialized Airlock
    2-Kharismas last about 3 months with Slime
    1-Python about 6 months with Stans
    1-Nevegal 18 months with Stans-I got my use out of this tire but still I think it failed premature.

    For the record I have ran a lot of tubed stuff in between without all the bubbles and tire failure. I am thinking of a new set of wheels and I dont think they will be tubeless.

  2. #2
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    4 years (2002-2005, 2009) of running tubeless...UST and Standard tires, sealant in all. Not one single bubble

    Sounds like you got a karma issue

  3. #3
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    Same here, no sealant related issues. Tires last till they wear out.

  4. #4
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    I don't think it's the sealant at all. I think it's Kenda tires.

    I had 3 sets of the Kinetics 2.2, they all developed bubbles and had to be thrown out.

    I have never had a problem with any other tubeless tires, Conti, Hutchinson, Michelin etc.

    Just the Kendas.


    jummo

  5. #5
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    so what I am saying is this thread really needs a pic......

  6. #6
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    Did you get the memo?

  7. #7
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    I'm no expert, but the Kenda website says no sealants are compatible with their tires ...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007
    so what I am saying is this thread really needs a pic......
    like this?


  9. #9
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    Not bad, but nowhere near the best kenda snuff pic I have seen.

    keep em coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by cobym2
    like this?


  10. #10
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    I got some pretty good deals on almost all the Kenda's that went bad thats why I kept using them and I was also aware of the warranty. The inside typically blisters and delaminates allowing air pressure to push through to the outer layer forming the bubble. Once the bubble forms its only maybe a couple of hours till the tire bursts. I ran a couple of Pythons for a long time with no trouble but one finally came apart like the Kendas. No pics because my camera quit.

    I am thinking of a new wheelset which will be lighter. Half the time I have been running tubes in my tubeless anyways. I dont think it would be worth going to a Stans "The Crow" tire because i think thats about the only one thats guaranteed to not come apart.

    I guess I should have gotten some "Karma's" instead of the Kharisma's....LOL.

  11. #11
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    I believe any "Tubeless Ready" tire would be warrantied if you got a bubble since they are designed to run with sealant.

    And I had Kharisma UST's and they SUCKED!!!!! (though no bubbles)...so yes, you should have gone Karma

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    I believe any "Tubeless Ready" tire would be warrantied if you got a bubble since they are designed to run with sealant.

    And I had Kharisma UST's and they SUCKED!!!!! (though no bubbles)...so yes, you should have gone Karma
    I'll throw in my experience - I had 2 Kenda Kinetics (2.5 kevlar, front) explode with sealant. I got them both for super cheap from blueskycycling.com ( $15 for both, no really! ) So maybe that had something to do with it. I have run various other 2.35 Kinetics (front and rear) with sealant and have not had the same catastrophic failure. In fact, last night I was changing out a Kinetic front tire, and checked the inside...it looked perfect - no problem spots or anything that looked funny after about 2 months with latex sealant.

    So maybe its just some Kenda tires that have problems?

    I did get a bit wary myself ... trying some Maxxis advantage tires now. The 2.4 is nice and big but a good bit heavier than the Kinetic ... sadly ...

    oh, and Kenda does say right on their site that they don't support using any sealant in ANY of their tires ( tubed or tubeless ) Not sure if that's lawyer produced dribble, or an indication that their tires don't handle something in sealant very well....

    http://www.kendausa.com/bicycle/technology.html
    Last edited by slcpunk; 06-12-2009 at 09:13 AM.

  13. #13

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    Kenda booth at Pedros/Kenda fest specifically said no sealant of any kind is to be used in their tires. Something in their tire compound that just gets destroyed by sealants.

  14. #14
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    My 29" Nevgals had a big cardboard sleeve that said the warranty would be void if sealant was used, I m using sealant anyway and for the past couple of months havent had any issues

    so , if you knew they warned against and used it anyway why complain now?
    any tubeless ready tire is compatible with sealant
    UST tires supposedly dont need it
    regular tires , you take your chances

  15. #15
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    Nevegal UST with Stan's for 2 years no problems. I even added more sealant between years.

  16. #16
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    I've been running Kenda SM8's tubeless with stans for around 3 months. Haven't noticed anything peculiar yet.

  17. #17
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    I think what you guys are seeing is not the sealant, but basically a pinch flat that lets air through the casing, but the tread layer doesn't puncture and holds the air in a bubble....

    Joe

  18. #18
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    I have had two Maxxis Ignitors UST do same thing. Using Stan's Sealant.

  19. #19
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    UST tires supposedly dont need it


    Excellent point and one that is often forgotten, Tubeless UST tires do not need sealant and in my experience hold air without issue although I do use it now. The whole sealant thing came along with people retrofitting non-ust rims to tubeless and now it's assumed that you need it. I rode on mavic ust rims and ust tires for years with no sealant without issue. You get what you pay for and then you go and use it outside the recommendations!

    Come 'on!

  20. #20
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    delete

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  21. #21
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    this is what has happended with my 2.1 Nevegal UST tire after ONLY one month using Stan`s...
    Attached Images Attached Images

  22. #22
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    how long did you ride the tire before putting stans in?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rain164845
    I think what you guys are seeing is not the sealant, but basically a pinch flat that lets air through the casing, but the tread layer doesn't puncture and holds the air in a bubble....

    Joe
    As I read these posts, I wondered how often hidden tire damage due to low pressures and rim strikes ( yep...tubeless version of pinch flat) was the real problem.

    With a tube, replaced after a pinch flat, the air pressure cannot seep into interior damage of the tire to cause delamination.

  24. #24
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    I think it was only 3 weeks, after that, the tire starded to lose some air and I decided to put some Stanīs goo to avoid that....
    Quote Originally Posted by kidd
    how long did you ride the tire before putting stans in?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by vt29er
    UST tires supposedly dont need it


    Excellent point and one that is often forgotten, Tubeless UST tires do not need sealant and in my experience hold air without issue although I do use it now. The whole sealant thing came along with people retrofitting non-ust rims to tubeless and now it's assumed that you need it. I rode on mavic ust rims and ust tires for years with no sealant without issue. You get what you pay for and then you go and use it outside the recommendations!

    Come 'on!
    Every UST tire that I have tried runs fine without sealant. But I don't run sealant for that reason. Depends on where you ride but punctures can still happen with regular occurrence. I would be lucky to go a month without getting a flat. Now I can go a whole year without seeing one. Wouldn't run without it regardless of what it does to the tire.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmcttr
    As I read these posts, I wondered how often hidden tire damage due to low pressures and rim strikes ( yep...tubeless version of pinch flat) was the real problem.

    With a tube, replaced after a pinch flat, the air pressure cannot seep into interior damage of the tire to cause delamination.
    That is exactly my thoughts, too. Inner tubes can reduce the internal tire damage in addition to being the air sealing chamber. I often wonder how many standard tires do have cut/damaged casings that cause few issues because there is no air pressure trying to push through them.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007
    so what I am saying is this thread really needs a pic......
    rofl
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  28. #28
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    18 months wow....long time...ride more lol kidding.

    I've had a couple sets of nevegal & blue groove, ust, run with stan's no issues.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ban
    this is what has happended with my 2.1 Nevegal UST tire after ONLY one month using Stan`s...
    I had the same thing happen to my Maxxis UST's WITHOUT sealant. As mentioned above, this delamination is probbaly casued by the tire having to hold the air rather than a tube and not due to the sealant.

    FWIW, I ran a kenda karma for 12 months WITH stan's porblem free. I just replaced it due to a sidewall cut and now have another kenda karma up front as well. About a month on the new tires (including one race) and they're holding up great.

  30. #30

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    We have the same issue with my Continental Mountain King folding tires with Stan's No Tube. Between me and my friend, we have 3 tires starting to have a twist. Our tires are about 7 months old and it wobbles when spinning but our rims are true. We even brought it to local bike store (tree fort bikes) and they agree that our rims are true and there is something with our tires but their diagnosed our tires as having sidewall bulge. I contacted the US dealer (highway two) but they did not warranty our tires because was use on a tubeless set-up and in conjunction with Stan's sealant. They claim Stan's tubeless sealant degrades tires. We are now just sticking with Schwalbe rocket ron tires. You'll get better after sales service with Schwalbe than Continental.

  31. #31
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    The picture quality aint great, but you can still see the sipes on the transitionals and cornering knobs, but the central knobs have been worn down so much that the sipes arent evident.
    That suggests that its probably been ridden for far more miles than the "one month" figure suggests.

  32. #32
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    trust me it's been only one month... well ,may be 6 weeks!I received a new Blur LT2 (you can see pics and date here!! http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=409967&page=8 ) by the end of May and the wheels & tires were brand new when I mounted them on my new frame, but I've been riding my new LT2 intensively like 4 or 5 times per week.... and yes one of the things that stroke me about the Nevegals was that it was wearing at a very fast rate but the terrain where I ride it's mainly rocky...but I expected the tire to last more than that....
    Quote Originally Posted by EnglishT
    The picture quality aint great, but you can still see the sipes on the transitionals and cornering knobs, but the central knobs have been worn down so much that the sipes arent evident.
    That suggests that its probably been ridden for far more miles than the "one month" figure suggests.

  33. #33
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    I think both of you may be right...I checked the rim after reading your comments and there's a small mark inside the rim as if there has been hit with a rock or something...so I'll be more careful with tire pressures now onwards....
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    That is exactly my thoughts, too. Inner tubes can reduce the internal tire damage in addition to being the air sealing chamber. I often wonder how many standard tires do have cut/damaged casings that cause few issues because there is no air pressure trying to push through them.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ban
    trust me it's been only one month... well ,may be 6 weeks!I
    If you're riding 4-5 days a week then 2 weeks is a long time...

    And yes, thats what I meant - it looks like its had alot more than what most people would consider "one month" of riding.
    Still shouldnt have worn down that fast unless you're doing alot of tarmac or slickrock (or other abrasive surfaces) miles.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledbymetal
    I had the same thing happen to my Maxxis UST's WITHOUT sealant. As mentioned above, this delamination is probbaly casued by the tire having to hold the air rather than a tube and not due to the sealant.

    FWIW, I ran a kenda karma for 12 months WITH stan's porblem free. I just replaced it due to a sidewall cut and now have another kenda karma up front as well. About a month on the new tires (including one race) and they're holding up great.

    the tire sealant probably isn't the cause. most people aren't going to ust tires without sealant and non ust tires are impossible without. therfore 90% of issues just correlate with sealant.
    imagine a tire of lower quality or non ust, has an air bubble in the casing. if the tire then gets punctured thru the bubble the sealant could seal the outer layer only. which would explain the sealant correlation! and why ust tires are more expensive.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinoy_Rider
    We have the same issue with my Continental Mountain King folding tires with Stan's No Tube. Between me and my friend, we have 3 tires starting to have a twist. Our tires are about 7 months old and it wobbles when spinning but our rims are true. We even brought it to local bike store (tree fort bikes) and they agree that our rims are true and there is something with our tires but their diagnosed our tires as having sidewall bulge. I contacted the US dealer (highway two) but they did not warranty our tires because was use on a tubeless set-up and in conjunction with Stan's sealant. They claim Stan's tubeless sealant degrades tires. We are now just sticking with Schwalbe rocket ron tires. You'll get better after sales service with Schwalbe than Continental.
    Schwalbe will not warranty a standard tire used without inner tubes ("converted") either. http://schwalbetires.com/warranty_disclaimer

    Same goes for most tire companies as the tires are being used outside of the design specs
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  37. #37
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    Well, this is retarded. I had the same thing happen to my Maxxis Crossmarks. One big blister but it went away. There was always 20 or some little wet spots on the tire from sealant ozzing out.

    I know you don't "need" sealant in any tire. But it is sure is nice to have it in there to catch a puncture and keep on rolling.

    I was riding in Laredo once time and hit a catus thorn...heard a "PSFTT" and saw a green spray and that was it. Sealed in about two seconds.

    So, who is going to fix this issue? The sealnt people or the tire people?

    I would guess the sealant people will bend first. I don't want to spend 100 bucks on tires ti have them chewed up by sealant in a month. So, no sealant for me. And no more stans or slime...

    They need to figure this crap out if they want to keep selling their sealant.

  38. #38
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    well in my case, I have been lucky and Chainreactioncycles has sent me a new tire free of charge...awesome CS..!

  39. #39
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    slightly OT but how the heck do you guys get 12-18 months of use out of your tires. i wish mine lasted that long

  40. #40
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    Interesting thread and I only just found it.

    I wanted to post a similar experience I've had. Not with Kenda tires but with Specialized Resolutions UST version. I came into the garage one day to prep my bike and found the side wall of the rear tire to be shredded in one area ( about 4") as if a sharp object had been pushed through from the inside and the casing then failed. I had been on a local trail the previous day and had ridden into the garage, so it had occurred on the bike stand.

    I took the tire to the LBS and Specialized replaced it. A few weeks later, while riding, I had a funny noise from the front tire. On inspection, found a large blister on the tread area. I took both tires back. I was told that the Resolution had been discontinued and they offered me a pair of Eskars. This was only a few months after the Resolution was released. As the Resolutions were branded UST I ran them without sealant. The Eskars are Tubeless Ready and require sealant but I have never had a problem with them

    I was a bit disappointed as it had been a great tire before the problems started. There were a few threads about it at the time. One comment I remember was that the Resolution was made for Specialized in Taiwan at the same factory that makes Kenda tires. I can not confirm the authenticity of that statement.

    These failures (mine and others) may be a tire failure problem and not necessarily associated with the use of sealant.

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  41. #41
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    But in the end there is no evidence that Stan's is destroying tires -just anecdotal evidence. What in Stan's would degrade rubber?

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valhalla
    But in the end there is no evidence that Stan's is destroying tires -just anecdotal evidence. What in Stan's would degrade rubber?
    Ammonia!! And not only tires, but rims too. If you haven't already read THIS!

    I've only used Stan's sealant for the past 3-4 years. I use it mostly in UST tires on UST rims for the extra insurance, but I have also used standard tires (mostly Nevegals). I haven't had any tire or rim issues, but I'm considering at least trying the Caffelatex stuff.

  43. #43
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    so you've been using stans for 3-4 yrs. no problems. me too!

  44. #44
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    I just got a bubble last night in my Kinetics 2.2 UST rear tire. My guess is that, like others have mentioned, it has more to do with the tire than the sealant. Heavy riding, hard hits, and similar things can easily cause damage to the tire that we can't see. Then you get a small air leak, possibly bringing sealant along with it, that moves in between the layers of the tire carcass.

    I'm just using it as an excuse to change tires. Threw a used set of Weirwolf 2.1s on for the weekend, and will be looking for something new...

  45. #45
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    bontrager tyres are tubeless ready and warrantied if used with there own juice so could they be the future

  46. #46
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    Maybe, except that I have yet to ride on any Bonty tires that were worth using... Every one I've tried was pretty bad.

  47. #47
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    I had a set of Maxxis Crossmark's that were fine for one season of riding. Late last fall the rear started needing air before every ride so this spring I put Stans in just the rear. These were UST tubeless tires. It was fine for about 3 months and then developed a number of air bubbles. The front without Stan's never did.


  48. #48
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    I am sick and tired of buying and throwing out expensive Kenda Nevegals UST's. I ran all of them with Stan's. Some last longer than others but they all suffer from the same failure, internal blistering which eventually lead to an external bubble and twist. I think this whole contraversy boils down to making a pattern like the most used thread patterns,ex. Nevegals, Crossmarks, etc., and make them able to run Stan's Sealant. Look, tubeless tires are here to stay, and no one running tubeless wants to risk running them without sealant, so lets figure this out once and for all! Manufacturers should stop pointing fingures and just solve this problem!!!!!

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoesntKnow
    Kenda booth at Pedros/Kenda fest specifically said no sealant of any kind is to be used in their tires. Something in their tire compound that just gets destroyed by sealants.
    Sounds like Kenda needs to figure out wtf is going on and get with the program.
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    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  50. #50
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    Wierd, I have been running Nevegals UST with Stan's for three years without a problem (3 tires total).

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhs
    I had a set of Maxxis Crossmark's that were fine for one season of riding. Late last fall the rear started needing air before every ride so this spring I put Stans in just the rear. These were UST tubeless tires. It was fine for about 3 months and then developed a number of air bubbles. The front without Stan's never did.

    The rear tire also gets more abuse so that's not conclusive.

    Car tires do the same after an accident or hitting the curb hard and they don't use Stan's. The impact damages the reinforcement in the casing and the tread is still air tight. I suspect UST tires don't have much, if any, extra reinforcement besides that on the sidewall? Otherwise they would be too slow and harsh.

    It could be a combination of both? Once damaged slightly the sealant gets a pathway to do it's little dirty.

    Some brands may be more prevalent if they may use a weaker [cheaper, thinner] filament in their reinforcing or the orientation of reinforcement plies are not the best for impact damage under the tread?

  52. #52
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    stop sniveling

    I have used stans sealant for years, and yes some of my tires..some have blistered but usually I wear out my tires so fast that they do not have time to blister and I am speaking of UST tires however the advantages of stans sealant far out weighs the blistering thing problem so if you ride so infrequently why not use tubeless ready and stans sealant? I never had any blistering at all with tubeless ready bontragers? I currently have a set of UST Kenda Kharismas with the EVIL stans spooge with no blistering at about 8 months....how do you explain that? anybody want to buy some UST 29er tires?

  53. #53
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    I've got all the carcases to prove it. Something's going on! Some people have no problems some people have nothing but problems. I ride about 3-4 times a week. I ride in south Florida parks like Markham and Quiet Waters. I run 30psi in both wheels. They are Kenda Nevegal Tubeless, mounted to 2010 Mavic Crossmax SLR rims. I can't think of any more details. We gotta figure this out!!!

  54. #54
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    I ordered some WTB TCS tires will keep you posted on them but the rep said they will warranty them when used with sealent.
    "Powder River, Let 'er Buck"

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaikara
    Every UST tire that I have tried runs fine without sealant. But I don't run sealant for that reason. Depends on where you ride but punctures can still happen with regular occurrence. I would be lucky to go a month without getting a flat. Now I can go a whole year without seeing one. Wouldn't run without it regardless of what it does to the tire.
    same with me, I hardly ever flat out the past 6 years, three times is all form massive nails on the road

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by dexon555
    I've got all the carcases to prove it. Something's going on! Some people have no problems some people have nothing but problems. I ride about 3-4 times a week. I ride in south Florida parks like Markham and Quiet Waters. I run 30psi in both wheels. They are Kenda Nevegal Tubeless, mounted to 2010 Mavic Crossmax SLR rims. I can't think of any more details. We gotta figure this out!!!
    is the tire rated for 30 psi?

  57. #57
    Stay thirsty my friends
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    Yawn....three years with front and rear Kenda SB8's with Stans, refilled every year when it dries out. Swapped them onto my DH bike and still riding them. I have always run 45 psi of air in them.

    More tires are wrecked from low tire pressure than any other factor...thats a fact.
    "Say good night to the bad guy."
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  58. #58
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    How about the Bontrager tubeless tire sealant? They claim that it's made from different polymers and that it doesn't have the side effects that Stans has. Anyone know about this stuff?

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by thumper07 View Post
    How about the Bontrager tubeless tire sealant? They claim that it's made from different polymers and that it doesn't have the side effects that Stans has. Anyone know about this stuff?

    stans doesnt have any side effects, kenda tires arent made to use sealant. Stans is the best sealant on the market bar none

  60. #60
    EDR
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan0 View Post
    stans doesnt have any side effects, kenda tires arent made to use sealant. Stans is the best sealant on the market bar none
    Kenda tires work fine with standard non-latex based Slime. Every Kenda tire pic I've seen with a huge ass blister in it was filled with Stans.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    Kenda tires work fine with standard non-latex based Slime. Every Kenda tire pic I've seen with a huge ass blister in it was filled with Stans.
    yeah and they all have a notice on them voiding the warranty if you use any sealant
    Ive run nevegals with stans for months without issue. if you ignore the warnings you takes your chances. Dont know about 26" but 29" nevegals are very average tires IMO try specialized purgatory if you want a good tire

  62. #62
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    Thays what I use. I'm making the tubeless conversion tonight! Can't think of a better way to spend my Monday night

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Schwalbe will not warranty a standard tire used without inner tubes ("converted") either. Warranty Disclaimer | Schwalbe North America

    Same goes for most tire companies as the tires are being used outside of the design specs
    My experience proves otherwise.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    My experience proves otherwise.
    This thread is now a few years old. The quote from Schwalbe is meant for regular tires converted. Personally, I'll never use them. If properly used with "tubeless ready" tires Schwalbe speak very highly of Stan's sealant. This from their tech. pages:

    "Tubeless Ready


    Can other sealing fluids also be used?


    Tubeless conversions generally work with other makes of sealing fluid and there are a whole host of different makes to now choose from on the market. However, many of these are only barely acceptable, but in any case they should be latex based. Along with Schwalbe Doc Blue we can unreservedly recommend Stan‘s No Tubes."
    The trouble with having an open mind is that people will insist on trying to put things in it.

  65. #65
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    Oh no, I revived a dead thread over a year old

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