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  1. #1
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    Weight vs. Cost Bike(s) Decision

    Hey all,

    Looking to get my first MTB in May. I have a 15.5lb (with race wheels) road bike, and the weight weenie fever has struck me regarding my upcoming purchase.

    Three bikes I'm considering at the moment. Gary Fisher Paragon 29er, with a confirmed weight of 24.5lbs and a cost of $1500-1600. Trek 8000, cost of around $1400, unknown weight, although I'd imagine 24ish. Last, the Windsor Cliff 29er Team, a Bikesdirect value priced bike, coming in at $950.

    Basically, I'd like to build up the lightest bike for the least amount of money possible, while retaining at least 2x9 capability. The Fisher is the most expensive, but it also comes the best equipped, from the fork, down to the overall componentry and wheelset, with the exception of Juicy 5 brakes. The Trek is a 26er, and is a mix of LX and XT, with the odd (in my mind) combination of an XT crank and LX shifters, again with Juicy 5s. The Windsor comes with a good overall components package, all X.9 and Juicy 7 brakes. Frame and wheels are a mystery; the post/bars/stem/seat/BB/crank would almost certainly be upgraded instantly. And, I'd have ~$500 to bring those parts up in spec; probably WCS or Thomson.

    So, which bike would you go with, and why?

    Specs:

    Gary Fisher Paragon
    Frame Platinum Series 6066 butted and hydroformed aluminum, G2 29" Geometry
    Fork Fox F80 RL 29 w/air pressure, rebound, lockout, alloy steerer, 80mm travel, G2 offset
    Headset Cane Creek ZS-2 w/cartridge bearings, sealed
    Crank Shimano LX 44/32/22
    Front Derailleur SRAM X.9
    Rear Derailleur SRAM X.9 Shifters SRAM X.9
    Cassette SRAM PG970 11-34, 9 speed
    Handlebar Bontrager Race Lite Big Sweep, 31.8mm, 12d
    Stem Bontrager Race X Lite, 31.8mm, 7 degree
    Saddle Bontrager Race Lite
    Seatpost Bontrager Race Lite
    Wheels Bontrager Rhythm Comp 29 disc, tubeless ready
    Tires Bontrager Jones ACX, 29x2.2, folding, tubeless ready
    Brakeset Avid Juicy 5, hydraulic disc, 160mm rotors

    Trek 8000
    Frame Alpha Red Aluminum w/internally and externally relieved head tube, hydroformed bi-axial down tube and top tube, wishbone seat stay, hydroformed chainstays, forged and relieved disc ready dropouts
    Front Suspension RockShox Reba SL w/positive and negative air pressure, Motion Control, rebound, compression, lockout, alloy steerer, 100mm
    Wheels
    Wheels Bontrager Race
    Tires Bontrager Jones XR, 26x2.2/2.25"; 60 tpi, folding
    Drivetrain
    Shifters Shimano Deore LX, 9 speed
    Front Derailleur Shimano Deore LX
    Rear Derailleur Shimano Deore XT "Shadow"
    Crank Shimano Deore XT 44/32/22
    Cassette SRAM PG970 11-32, 9 speed
    Pedals n/a
    Components
    Saddle Bontrager Race
    Seat Post Bontrager Race Lite
    Handlebars Bontrager Race, 0mm rise, 31.8mm
    Stem Bontrager Race, 7 degree, 31.8mm
    Headset Aheadset Slimstak w/cartridge bearings, sealed, alloy
    Brakeset Avid Juicy 5, hydraulic disc; 185mm front, 160mm rear rotor

    Frame Altair 2 custom butted aluminum
    Fork Rock Shox Reba 29 SL Air, 80mm Travel w/Remote PopLoc
    Crankset TruVativ Firex 3.1 GXP, 22/32/44T
    Bottom Bracket TruVativ GXP Exterior Bearing System
    Pedals BONUS Xpedo MF-3 clipless
    Front Derailleur SRAM X.9, 34.9mm
    Rear Derailleur SRAM X.9
    Shifters SRAM X.9 Trigger, 27-speed
    Cassette/Freewheel SRAM PG-950, 11-34T 9-speed
    Chain KMC HG-73
    Hubs Gravity Sealed Bearing Disc, 32H
    Spokes 32 Stainless Steel 14 gauge
    Rims WTB Lazer Disc Trail 29", 32H DW w/ Single Eyelet
    Tires Maxxis Ignitor OR Kenda Nevegal (NO Choice) 29 inch
    Brakes Avid Juicy 7 Hydraulic Disc, 160mm rotor
    Brake Levers Avid Juicy 7 Hydraulic Disc
    Headset V.P. A-42E 1 1/8" Press Fit Integrated, 30mm spacers
    Handlebar Windsor Pro Riser 15mm double butted aluminum 31.8mm
    Stem Windsor 3D Forged Al 1 1/8"
    Tape/Grip Dual Density Kraton rubber
    Saddle WTB Rocket V Comp SE
    Seat Post Micro Adjust, 350mm
    Seat Clamp Superlite Alloy, 34.9mm Laser Etched

  2. #2
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    It is cheaper to buy the right part the first time rather than buy a mediocre part, not be happy, remove the not so happy part and buy another super light part later on.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by duke of kent
    So, which bike would you go with, and why?
    The first thing to figure out is if you want a 29er or not. How tall are you for a start? What kind of riding are you doing? The same money is going to build you a significantly lighter 26er than 29er.
    www.yourtrails.net/weights/ - Kick ass weights listing
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Some Guy
    The first thing to figure out is if you want a 29er or not. How tall are you for a start? What kind of riding are you doing? The same money is going to build you a significantly lighter 26er than 29er.
    I'm 5'7", 64kg, love long walks on the beach, classic literature, and going uphill.

    As this will be my first MTB, I'm not really sure what kind of terrain I'll be seeing. Racing XC and maybe some marathon events. I plan to be racing Expert by the end of the season, hopefully getting some upgrade points towards the next level or however "you people" do it.

    I plan on doing some of the WORS races in Wisconsin, and maybe making a trip out east to Tennessee and West Virginia for both some RR and XC action.

    I've taken short spins on both the 29er and 26er from GF and Trek, respectively, liked and fit (as far I can tell...I felt very upright but the guys at the shop said I looked good) well on both of them. I was told by several different people that the 29er will help smooth out the ride, and make my lack of technical ability (at the moment) less glaring, and let my fitness do the talking. In my mind, this is a good thing.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by duke of kent
    I'm 5'7", 64kg, love long walks on the beach, classic literature, and going uphill.

    As this will be my first MTB, I'm not really sure what kind of terrain I'll be seeing. Racing XC and maybe some marathon events. I plan to be racing Expert by the end of the season, hopefully getting some upgrade points towards the next level or however "you people" do it.

    I plan on doing some of the WORS races in Wisconsin, and maybe making a trip out east to Tennessee and West Virginia for both some RR and XC action.

    I've taken short spins on both the 29er and 26er from GF and Trek, respectively, liked and fit (as far I can tell...I felt very upright but the guys at the shop said I looked good) well on both of them. I was told by several different people that the 29er will help smooth out the ride, and make my lack of technical ability (at the moment) less glaring, and let my fitness do the talking. In my mind, this is a good thing.
    In my opinion - you would like a 29er
    but as a performance oriented roadie and very interested in weight and speed
    there is no bike close to a FLY TEAM Ti
    Lightest ATB bike under $5000 that you can buy - 19.5 lbs
    Very smooth ride for a 26" hardtail as it is Ti
    Comes with high pressure XC race tires - put on normal trail 2.2 for extra smotth ride
    Frame is very durable of course

    There is noit a lighter faster production mountain bike made and sold anywhere close to $2000

    But that maybe out of your budget; I do not know. However, crank, brakes, der, shifters, wheels, stem, bars, post, and frame would never need to be upgraded - as there is no way to improve those.

    Just my thoughts

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by duke of kent
    As this will be my first MTB, I'm not really sure what kind of terrain I'll be seeing.
    Fair call. The reason I asked is it does give us a better idea of what might be suitable for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    there is no bike close to a FLY TEAM Ti
    Lightest ATB bike under $5000 that you can buy - 19.5 lbs
    Very smooth ride for a 26" hardtail as it is Ti
    You're right - ti does have very good ride properties. In fact from what Duke said regarding looking at a 29er to smooth things out, a ti or steel bike with 2.2 tyres could be a very good choice. Not only does is it more comfortable than an aluminum frame with skinny tyres, it work great for racing too. I've raced at a high level on a steel hardtail for the last year (see the blog below if you want more detail), very happy with it. I find the extra comfort and control is worth the weight penalty.

    That aside though, there are several negatives to the Motobecane bike you mention. I don't want to get into an argument as obviously you're not going to agree, but here are the downsides:

    Base model SID fork. Sure it weighs 1300gr, but it's crap. Given you are looking for a nice ride, you'll want to replace this with a Fox or Reba - add 300gr for either.
    Ultegra Cassette. Limited gearing range. +100gr if you want a full MTB range.
    Wheels. Not sure how long they'd last, probably be OK while they do. Replacing them with a quality light wheelset is going to set you back a bit though.
    Frame. Sure it's Ti, but it's going to be about the cheapest ti frame you can get. It is NOT as good as ti frame from better known brands, whatever Bikesdirect says. You get what you pay for.

    Other than that everything does look pretty good, although the saddle may not suit you. Don't forget to budget getting a mechanic to check over the bike and fix any issues though.

    However, crank, brakes, der, shifters, wheels, stem, bars, post, and frame would never need to be upgraded - as there is no way to improve those.
    Now that is just being silly. Everything can be upgraded, no matter how expensive the bike. You reckon a Ritchey aluminium post is better than a Thomson masterpeice? Oh and cranks? FSA themselves make a higher level crankset!

    My advice would be, at your height, to get a 26" bike. I don't believe you'll see advantages from a 29er, and I certainly don't think it will make technical sections easier. Something like a Jamis steel frame with wider tires as mentioned would be a good choice.
    www.yourtrails.net/weights/ - Kick ass weights listing
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Some Guy
    Fair call. The reason I asked is it does give us a better idea of what might be suitable for you.



    You're right - ti does have very good ride properties. In fact from what Duke said regarding looking at a 29er to smooth things out, a ti or steel bike with 2.2 tyres could be a very good choice. Not only does is it more comfortable than an aluminum frame with skinny tyres, it work great for racing too. I've raced at a high level on a steel hardtail for the last year (see the blog below if you want more detail), very happy with it. I find the extra comfort and control is worth the weight penalty.

    That aside though, there are several negatives to the Motobecane bike you mention. I don't want to get into an argument as obviously you're not going to agree, but here are the downsides:

    Base model SID fork. Sure it weighs 1300gr, but it's crap. Given you are looking for a nice ride, you'll want to replace this with a Fox or Reba - add 300gr for either.
    Ultegra Cassette. Limited gearing range. +100gr if you want a full MTB range.
    Wheels. Not sure how long they'd last, probably be OK while they do. Replacing them with a quality light wheelset is going to set you back a bit though.
    Frame. Sure it's Ti, but it's going to be about the cheapest ti frame you can get. It is NOT as good as ti frame from better known brands, whatever Bikesdirect says. You get what you pay for.

    Other than that everything does look pretty good, although the saddle may not suit you. Don't forget to budget getting a mechanic to check over the bike and fix any issues though.



    Now that is just being silly. Everything can be upgraded, no matter how expensive the bike. You reckon a Ritchey aluminium post is better than a Thomson masterpeice? Oh and cranks? FSA themselves make a higher level crankset!

    My advice would be, at your height, to get a 26" bike. I don't believe you'll see advantages from a 29er, and I certainly don't think it will make technical sections easier. Something like a Jamis steel frame with wider tires as mentioned would be a good choice.
    Fair input and correct on several levels
    wrong on twopoints

    SID RACE is not crap [not top of the line - but certainly not crap]

    On the FRAME
    My guess is you have not seen this frame

    in addition, if you saw without decals the Moto frame and 3 or 4 others that retailed at over $2000 for the frame only you would be hard pressed to to pick the lowest quality one and you would not pick the Moto

    As Mountain Bike Action said - the frame is stunning

    And this is FAR from the cheapest Ti frame we could spec OEM - in fact it is the most expensive one made in Asia [we could get a cheap Ti from China for half the money - but did not]

    In fact, a full carbon fiber ATB frame like used by Scott or Specialized can be had for 1/3 the cost of the OEM price of the Moto

    Ti is a new area for Motobecane - that is true
    and that is why frame has been chosen so carefully AND why we are pricing Ti Motobecanes [26" hardtail, cyclo cross, road, and 29er] at way under market value for the first year. We are going to spend a year putting hundreds of riders on Ti Motobecanes at under $2000 so that everyone can get the idea of what these bikes [and frames] are really like.

    My wife won the regional adventure bike races and competed in the nationals on a Fly Ti and she says the ride is beyond belief [she had been on a Fly Pro]. Of course, she maybe bais: But there will be at least 6 Motobecane Ti magazine reviews in the next year and hundreds of new owners who can post there experience. We think people interested in Ti as an alternative frame material will not be able to overlook Motobecane a year from now.

    my wife at the adventure bike nationals before the 24 hour race [after 24 hours she did not look exactly the same LOL]


  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    SID RACE is not crap [not top of the line - but certainly not crap
    It has 28.6mm staunchion tubes, and misses out on a lot of ride improving features the high SIDs have. I wouldn't ride it, and it's not the right fork for Duke either.

    in addition, if you saw without decals the Moto frame and 3 or 4 others that retailed at over $2000 for the frame only you would be hard pressed to to pick the lowest quality one and you would not pick the Moto
    Perhaps, but I doubt it. Send me close up photos of three frames (one of them yours) BB, head tube, and dropout welds if you really want to know if I can pick it or not. This is hardly on topic though. You've said your peice, I've pointed out the negatives an unbiased bystander can see, let's move on and let them make up their own mind.
    www.yourtrails.net/weights/ - Kick ass weights listing
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Some Guy
    It has 28.6mm staunchion tubes, and misses out on a lot of ride improving features the high SIDs have. I wouldn't ride it, and it's not the right fork for Duke either.



    Perhaps, but I doubt it. Send me close up photos of three frames (one of them yours) BB, head tube, and dropout welds if you really want to know if I can pick it or not. This is hardly on topic though. You've said your peice, I've pointed out the negatives an unbiased bystander can see, let's move on and let them make up their own mind.

    Correct on Sid Race staunchions and features - BUT it is not crap and at Duke's weight he woud have no problems with it for XC
    example; my wifes adventure racing team won the regionals here by over an hour - all riding Flys with Sid Race - and no one had any bike issue; including fork

    Pictures below [from wife's race bike]: however frames need to be seen in person to be appreciated and we are very confident that after thousands of people see and ride these; they will become the go to choice on riders wanting quality Ti without going the over $2000 frame only price of custom builders






  10. #10
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    Mike,

    I've had an interest in your Fly Pro and Fly 9357 for a while now. The Ti framed bike is out of my range at the moment, though. I'd buy the Fly Pro or Fly 9357 in a heartbeat, but, like some others have said, I have reservations about the SID fork.

    I do most of my own maintenance, and know next to nothing about fork internals, so a fork that is a noodle and requires a lot of maintenance would not be good for me. I've thought about buying a Reba from your site and switching the forks when the bike arrived, but then re-selling the SID on Ebay is not something I'd really like doing.

    I sent your service department an email a while back asking if it would be possible to switch the fork at your warehouse, covering whatever costs and then some if that would make a difference, but they said it couldn't be done.

    So, I'm looking for a bike with a Reba or Fox F80 RL on it for now.

  11. #11
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    If you plan on riding expert then I would not recommend a sid.

    I'm 140 lbs and certainly do not ride at expert speed and I can feel the fork flex quite a bit.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by duke of kent
    Mike,

    I've had an interest in your Fly Pro and Fly 9357 for a while now. The Ti framed bike is out of my range at the moment, though. I'd buy the Fly Pro or Fly 9357 in a heartbeat, but, like some others have said, I have reservations about the SID fork.

    I do most of my own maintenance, and know next to nothing about fork internals, so a fork that is a noodle and requires a lot of maintenance would not be good for me. I've thought about buying a Reba from your site and switching the forks when the bike arrived, but then re-selling the SID on Ebay is not something I'd really like doing.

    I sent your service department an email a while back asking if it would be possible to switch the fork at your warehouse, covering whatever costs and then some if that would make a difference, but they said it couldn't be done.

    So, I'm looking for a bike with a Reba or Fox F80 RL on it for now.

    I understand

    we do not modify bikes however; that is part of why the price is so low

    of course, soon all FLYs will have 2009 Sid - which has 32mm - so that changes everything - basicly makes the Sid like a real light Reba
    2009 Sid will be out early this summer

    Fantom Pro is well equipped with Reba
    but not an ultra light bike; as it is more all mountain than XC
    so that may not meet your ultra light requirement
    Fly is only ultra light in the $1000 to $1400 range I know of

    2009 Sid 32mm version fork on Flys we will have
    new Fly XC, Fly Pro, Fly 9357, Fly Team and Fly Team Ti
    so 5 versions coming from 22.5 lbs to 19.5 lbs
    and from $995 to $2195
    we like light hardtails!

  13. #13
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    FLY TEAM Ti

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