Maybe this is why some racers dislike tire sealant systems...- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Maybe this is why some racers dislike tire sealant systems...

    I have just read this cyclingnews.com. Its from the Under23 Worlds Champs report.

    ''Canadian Max Plaxton also double flatted on the second lap, while in the group riding for fifth place (and less than a minute out of third). An interesting point is that Plaxton is using Stan's (a tire sealant) with regular tires and no tubes. The technique is used by a number of top riders (including Alison Sydor), and provides for very light wheels; considerably lighter than a normal tubeless system, or regular tire and tube. However, it appears to be more prone to flatting on the rocky trails in Livigno. Canadian Neal Kindree was running the same setup in the Junior men's race yesterday and his tire blew off the rim in a small crash, slowing him at a point when he was only 25 seconds out of second place. It is unknown whether Cedric Ravanel was also running this setup when he flatted while in the lead of the Team Relay. Canadian team manager Sean O'Donnell commented "the riders may have to re-evaluate that setup for the elite races on Sunday." ''

    Its a bit odd. I would have thought rocky terrain would be a great place to use sealent systems due to risk of snake bites with tubes but it doesnt seem that way.

  2. #2
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    problems is....

    Quote Originally Posted by nathan.j
    I have just read this cyclingnews.com. Its from the Under23 Worlds Champs report.

    ''Canadian Max Plaxton also double flatted on the second lap, while in the group riding for fifth place (and less than a minute out of third). An interesting point is that Plaxton is using Stan's (a tire sealant) with regular tires and no tubes. The technique is used by a number of top riders (including Alison Sydor), and provides for very light wheels; considerably lighter than a normal tubeless system, or regular tire and tube. However, it appears to be more prone to flatting on the rocky trails in Livigno. Canadian Neal Kindree was running the same setup in the Junior men's race yesterday and his tire blew off the rim in a small crash, slowing him at a point when he was only 25 seconds out of second place. It is unknown whether Cedric Ravanel was also running this setup when he flatted while in the lead of the Team Relay. Canadian team manager Sean O'Donnell commented "the riders may have to re-evaluate that setup for the elite races on Sunday." ''

    Its a bit odd. I would have thought rocky terrain would be a great place to use sealent systems due to risk of snake bites with tubes but it doesnt seem that way.
    that's not the systems fault - it's still the riders!

    i know that pro-riders run silly low pressures. that's something they can with sealant systems BUT as always there is a point where low is too low. Frischy also used to run silly low pressures (1.8 bar = 25 psi) but then you definitely have to be cautious in corners or in extreme situations. and these pressures are ridiculous anyway and come from ol-style thinking: with inner tubes or with UST tubes such pressures might be ok to ride with BUT regular race tires used without inner tubes are much softer, thus they don't require the same pressure settings as the usual setups.

    and Stans system has no inner ribs that prevent the tire from coming off the rim, unlike Eclipse that has these ribs on the rimstrip, just like any UST rims has (see pic below)
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    that's not the systems fault - it's still the riders!

    i know that pro-riders run silly low pressures. that's something they can with sealant systems BUT as always there is a point where low is too low. Frischy also used to run silly low pressures (1.8 bar = 25 psi) but then you definitely have to be cautious in corners or in extreme situations. and these pressures are ridiculous anyway and come from ol-style thinking: with inner tubes or with UST tubes such pressures might be ok to ride with BUT regular race tires used without inner tubes are much softer, thus they don't require the same pressure settings as the usual setups.

    and Stans system has no inner ribs that prevent the tire from coming off the rim, unlike Eclipse that has these ribs on the rimstrip, just like any UST rims has (see pic below)
    I've tried both. So have a few others I ride with. They warned me to stay with stans,but I had to find out the hard way that the dtswiss/eclipse kit is not as good.

    The dt kit works well with real ust tires, but regular tires don't work very well.

  4. #4
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    well...

    Quote Originally Posted by xl_cheese
    I've tried both. So have a few others I ride with. They warned me to stay with stans,but I had to find out the hard way that the dtswiss/eclipse kit is not as good.

    The dt kit works well with real ust tires, but regular tires don't work very well.
    some guys like Thomas Frischknecht use the Eclipse kit with regular tires for years and become worldchampions... you will always have guys encountering problems with EVERY system. Stans, Eclipse or UST alike. most of the time it's a problem of wrong mounting or bad setup....
    Last edited by nino; 09-03-2005 at 01:00 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by xl_cheese
    I've tried both. So have a few others I ride with. They warned me to stay with stans,but I had to find out the hard way that the dtswiss/eclipse kit is not as good.

    The dt kit works well with real ust tires, but regular tires don't work very well.
    I've had the Eclipse system for over a year with regular tires (Kenda Karmas, Racing Ralphs, Python Airlight) with no problems.
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  6. #6
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    More than a year on eclipse with DT's 4,1 Conti explorer-escape, no problem and we have our share of rocky trails in GDL.

  7. #7
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    The canadian maxxis distributor has a large stockpile of their tubeless conversion rimstrips and the matching model maxxis tubeless tires on clearout for over 80% off original price. I'm gonna order a few sets probably since I have used the strips with regular old-school kevlar foldables that had studs thru the casing and tread blocks and when used with a liquid sealent (mine was latex mold builder, winter grade washer fluid, and crushed mica flakes) they stayed on the rim fine at about 20psi. Heck, once the sealant dries at the edges they stay on fine at ZERO psi. Getting the tires off the strips, which have edge lips similar to the eclipse strips, but also extend up past the rim sidewall a couple millmeters, requires motorcycle steel tire levers and about a half hour of brute force per tire. They definitely wouldn't come off the rim during a race.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    The canadian maxxis distributor has a large stockpile of their tubeless conversion rimstrips and the matching model maxxis tubeless tires on clearout for over 80% off original price. I'm gonna order a few sets probably since I have used the strips with regular old-school kevlar foldables that had studs thru the casing and tread blocks and when used with a liquid sealent (mine was latex mold builder, winter grade washer fluid, and crushed mica flakes) they stayed on the rim fine at about 20psi. Heck, once the sealant dries at the edges they stay on fine at ZERO psi. Getting the tires off the strips, which have edge lips similar to the eclipse strips, but also extend up past the rim sidewall a couple millmeters, requires motorcycle steel tire levers and about a half hour of brute force per tire. They definitely wouldn't come off the rim during a race.
    I was looking at these, but the Maxxis website says that they weigh about 100g each, depending on the size. Combined with the sealant, that would seem to defeat some of the purpose of the tubeless conversion. Do you know the actual weights?

    At $5 each, I may try them anyway on my backup bike
    Last edited by DaFireMedic; 09-03-2005 at 02:56 PM.
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  9. #9
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    I don't know the weight of the maxxis tires because I haven't gotten any to weigh yet but I doubt they're much worse than UST tires. The maxxis rubber rimstrips which I have, which fit 22-23mm width XC rims, weigh 98 grams each. Remember the maxxis system relies not on a sealant, but on properly designed tubeless bicycle tires. Their rubber rimstrips were designed to convert existing (non-UST) rims to be run tubeless, and they offered tubeless versions of several of their XC tire models. I believe they've now met the UST label requirements on their tires, but at the time they got into tubeless (before Stan btw), this is what they came up with.

    Tubeless using regular tube-tires and sealant will only ever be lighter than tubes if you use the old strapping tape sealing method (which is even worse when it comes to low pressures and side loads - like cornering in a race - ripping the tire loose). Stan's rubber rimstrips weigh just as much as the maxxis or eclipse ones, but don't grip the tires as well. His rims with the lips cut off them are an even worse idea as all actual tubeless design tires, from automotive to bicycle still rely on the bead locking into the rim edge when they're inflated. I really laughed when I read MBA's article on his new rims a few months ago. The guy really doesn't have a clue as to the engineering that went into pneumatic tires and rims and why all clincher tires and rims (whether you use tubes or not) have those hooks and lips on them to lock together when inflated.

    As to the canadians suffering at the worlds because of it, I'm surprised nobody on the team learned from Ryder's mistake at the olympics last year when his stan's tires blew out twice during the race forcing his withdrawal. First time when he was involved in that mass crash/pileup on the first lap, and then later on I think his second lap when he was descending one section of the course that sweeps into a fast left turn, his tire came off the rim again. If he's like a typical racer, he probably only carried a single co2 cartridge to reinflate his tire the first time, and likely a 12 or 16g size at that (neither of which will inflate a 2.1 much more than 30psi).
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaFireMedic
    I was looking at these, but the Maxxis website says that they weigh about 100g each, depending on the size. Combined with the sealant, that would seem to defeat some of the purpose of the tubeless conversion. Do you know the actual weights?

    At $5 each, I may try them anyway on my backup bike
    I have a couple of the Maxxis strips with the following weights:

    Maxxis TS Rimstrip 26A5 Sun - 110g
    Maxxis TS Rimstrip 26A2 Mavic - 95g

    The Stans for Mavic weighs at 53g on my scale.

    I trim the Maxxis after installation because they have lots of overhang, so they lose about 10g.

    The Stans system has the advantage of a removable valve core and lighter weight. The Maxxis has ribs on the strip similar to the Eclipse and pump up nicely. I've had some tires that wouldn't inflate with Stan's, but worked with Maxxis...

    I really don't have a preference, but I like having both.

    Cheers
    Last edited by airman; 09-04-2005 at 08:39 AM.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by airman
    I a couple of the Maxxis strips with the following weights:

    Maxxis TS Rimstrip 26A5 Sun - 110g
    Maxxis TS Rimstrip 26A2 Mavic - 95g

    The Stans for Mavic weighs at 53g on my scale.

    I trim the Maxxis after installation because they have lots of overhang, so they lose about 10g.

    The Stans system has the advantage of a removable valve core and lighter weight. The Maxxis has ribs on the strip similar to the Eclipse and pump up nicely. I've had some tires that wouldn't inflate with Stan's, but worked with Maxxis...

    I really don't have a preference, but I like having both.

    Cheers
    just for the record:
    the Eclipse rimstrip weighs just 21g + seperate valve 9g + adhesive tape 5g = 35g!!

    now ad 80g of sealant (with regular tires) or 40g (with UST tires) and you get a system weight of just 115g / 75g per wheel. hard to beat unless you use a Flyweight 90g inner tube and 5g rimstrip. so you would have a 95g setup but we all know how well those tubes last

    Eclipse has a completely removable valve, not just a removable core. this allows for easy repair on the trail once you should stil have a problem and need to put an inner tube. with Stans strip you have to remove it completely and then hopefully you still have a regular rimstrip underneath...so add another 10g for that rimstrip to Stans strip and you'll see his systems is almost twice the weight of Eclipse!

    fact: Maxxis never had any success with it's system. ever wonder why? even Maxxis distributors shake their heads when asked about the system. it has major flaws, is much too heavy...no one wants it.
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  12. #12
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    Heavy? 98 grams is too heavy now? ROTFLMSWAO.

    The only problems are the things fit too well, making tire removal a chore, and most stores have ignored anything other than UST tubeless setups, so the distributors got stuck with lots of alternatives. Araya had a tubeless conversion setup also. Came on the market same time as the Maxxis setup. Simply poor marketing and a consumer population not eager to accept the idea of tubeless tires. Then we have the Love semi-tubeless tires and Slime's new tires (nearly identical to the love system, aside from having sealant inside now), well reviewed by major mags but again, poorly marketed by the distributors. Love's canadian distributor is also the stan's distributor as well as they've distributed lots of other brands over the past 10 years, which they haven't done a good job with.

    Oh wait...i forgot...if its not eclipse its crap to nino, cause he doesn't get kickbacks from any other brands.
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  13. #13
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    98g + UST IS heavy...

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    Heavy? 98 grams is too heavy now? ROTFLMSWAO.

    The only problems are the things fit too well, making tire removal a chore, and most stores have ignored anything other than UST tubeless setups, so the distributors got stuck with lots of alternatives. Araya had a tubeless conversion setup also. Came on the market same time as the Maxxis setup. Simply poor marketing and a consumer population not eager to accept the idea of tubeless tires. Then we have the Love semi-tubeless tires and Slime's new tires (nearly identical to the love system, aside from having sealant inside now), well reviewed by major mags but again, poorly marketed by the distributors. Love's canadian distributor is also the stan's distributor as well as they've distributed lots of other brands over the past 10 years, which they haven't done a good job with.

    Oh wait...i forgot...if its not eclipse its crap to nino, cause he doesn't get kickbacks from any other brands.
    sorry - but 98g + UST is really, really heavy!

    any solution without sealant is not offering the puncture protection we are looking for - period! just have a look at how many manufacturers now offer sealants to go in their UST tires: Hutchinson,Geax,Michelin,Bontrager, etcetc...

    it's a well known fact that UST tires suffer from eventual air loss and in case of a penetrating object UST is useless too. used with low pressures you can get eventual burps... air-loss...the solution to all these problems is simple: SEALANT!

    but when you use sealant you don't need those heavy UST tires anymore. they sure have thicker sidewalls and if you ride in an aerea where you get eventual cuts in sidewalls UST migth still be a good idea but racers and those looking to shed weight can take profit of lightweight regular tires with the added puncture protection of the sealant.

    sorry - i don't get a cent of Eclipse! it's just a fact that Eclipse has major advantages for racers. mainly in weight and in ease of use in case of on-trail repair.

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    If sealent is such a big advantage, why am I reading...

    about so many riders gettting flats with these "tubeless" systems?
    That seems like no advantage to me.
    I also saw Alison Dunlpa racing CrossMax rims and Ritchey UST tires a few years ago and won. I think now she is using Stan's system.

    Most UST manufactors are offering sealent because there new UST tires and being made basiclly as regular tires with UST beads. Yes you lose the advantage of stiffer sidewalls (which running lowe pressure helps alot.) but the beads will stay on the rim much better with UST rims than any other "Tubeless" System and sealent will only help this.

    I get minimal air pressure losty wether running UST or sealent sealed regular tires. I have NEVER had a UST tire flat, burp air or fail like other sealing systems. I have benn using UST system since it hit the market.
    For most of my riding this is my choice. When I try racing again this winter, I will try NON-UST Tubeless at first, but eventually go with UST if it fails.

    BTW: The 03 or 04 Florida XC champs rode heavy Specilaied bikes and UST tires to the state championship in 4 cats .

    You also realize by selaing tires you are running a system that was NOT desgined to do this. One reason WTB stopped making Kelvar tires on some modes due to stan's sealent.
    Also I fell and notice sealed tires are more prone to folding and washing out in coners if the pressure is too low. I ad more air, then the cushier ride and traction see to fade away. Also I put a really bad hop in my CrossMax UST rims when using sealed tires at 36psi on the rear when I hit a large root flying down a trail. This never happend with UST tires.

    Also the Eclipse/DT Swiss one big fault is the tape that hold the rimstrip. Onnce it goes which cane be pretty fast, the replacement tape is expensive.
    No system is perfect including tubes. But for my the lighter UST tires and using sealent just to stop air loss or time is they way to go. Racing maybe a different story. But UST and sealent IMO might be the almost perfect system.
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    im using the new bontrager super juice stuff on their tubeless ready tires. Tubeless bead regular casing + 50g of sealant. Have had no problems yet. Tried stans flated on first ride from a thorn, hole would not seal.

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    I actually...

    I use UST rims, with normal tyres... I do one step a little different though, I actually seal around the bead and rim (on the outside), with a mixture of latex and wiper fluid/windex. I run reasonable presures, and weigh quiet abit, but since starting to do this I have never had a tyre burb, fart or come off the rim on me. In fact it takes quiet an effort to get they tyre off the rim as it is pretty much sealed on there.

    I race enduro / trail ride, so the extra grams doesn't matter too much to me, I'd much prefer a setup that is strong, and reliable. But the weigth saving is a bonus.
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    I think they just get addicted to low weight

    The decision to go converted tubeless is probably driven by weight and rolling resistance and I think they just go too far. Look at the tires Geoff Kabush used at the Worlds. That is nuts. You pretty much deserve a flat running sub 350g tires.

    Also (and I think on a related note - as the number of flats seems to have gone way up this year), I think this tech zone thing is totally bogus. I hope (but know they won't) get rid of that.





    Quote Originally Posted by nathan.j
    I have just read this cyclingnews.com. Its from the Under23 Worlds Champs report.

    ''Canadian Max Plaxton also double flatted on the second lap, while in the group riding for fifth place (and less than a minute out of third). An interesting point is that Plaxton is using Stan's (a tire sealant) with regular tires and no tubes. The technique is used by a number of top riders (including Alison Sydor), and provides for very light wheels; considerably lighter than a normal tubeless system, or regular tire and tube. However, it appears to be more prone to flatting on the rocky trails in Livigno. Canadian Neal Kindree was running the same setup in the Junior men's race yesterday and his tire blew off the rim in a small crash, slowing him at a point when he was only 25 seconds out of second place. It is unknown whether Cedric Ravanel was also running this setup when he flatted while in the lead of the Team Relay. Canadian team manager Sean O'Donnell commented "the riders may have to re-evaluate that setup for the elite races on Sunday." ''

    Its a bit odd. I would have thought rocky terrain would be a great place to use sealent systems due to risk of snake bites with tubes but it doesnt seem that way.
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  18. #18
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    Agreed

    If you're using silly tires (look at the WC Marathon, for example) you're asking for trouble, particularly in alpine terrain such as Livigno.

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    Yup, the courses are so smooth and groomed..

    that they can run real semi slicks, hybrid style tires or even slicks as the courses are so tamed. MTB racing is basically an Fitness Event NOT a MTB race anymore.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRT BOY
    If sealent is such a big advantage, why am I reading...about so many riders gettting flats with these "tubeless" systems?
    That seems like no advantage to me.
    .
    If you are comparing it to UST with sealant, you may be right. But if you are comparing it to tubes, I have to disagree. We hear about flats with these systems on this forum (nothing is flat proof), but thats all we are going to hear. Its not likely that anyone is going to post "I took my tubeless converted tires for a ride today and didn't get a flat". I haven't flatted in over a year now, and this is on trails that I used to flat on almost weekly with tubes. I was riding with a "tube using" buddy the other day and had to help him fix a flat. I've heard far more positive comments than negative. I'm convinced that tubeless conversion is the way to go.

    UST with sealant is almost certainly more secure, I haven't tried it. But you pay a definite weight penalty with it.
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  21. #21
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    I've had one flat with Stans in 2 seasons of racing/riding. XC, 12-24hour, TTs, etc. That flat was just a few days ago, and even then it I rode it out since it was a slow leak(scraped the sideway on a rock-Karma).

    I've had countless tube flats over that period. Countless.

    I hate tubes and will never go back. At least for my 3 main wheelsets. UST tires are good and reliable. Just way too heavy for my taste. At least for racing.

  22. #22
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    Oh come on man. Dunno about everywhere else, but half our courses this season are more then a challenge(NC, N Ga, etc). Plenty of technical to keep everyone honest. I'm still looking for a course I can use my HT instead of the NRS. Maybe this weekend...but its still got babyhead gardens and roots out the yang yang. I'm using 450gm Karmas this season and love'm.

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    I should of said WC and Top NORBA...

    yes local XC Courses are usally very tough and harder than the WC courses
    From what I have seen in pics, the Sea Otter course looks pretty smooth and not that technical.

    One year here the top pros on the Xterra Race complained like hell that the course was tooo technical, full of roots and too much coral rocks!
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    Its a bit odd. I would have thought rocky terrain would be a great place to use sealent systems due to risk of snake bites with tubes but it doesnt seem that way.
    I ride in very rocky terrain and I have found the converted tires are no less prone to flatting than tubes due to sidewall cuts. Either system, tube or converted, will flat just the same with a sidewall cut. The difference is that when you have to put a tube in, all that sealant makes it a REAL pain. The beauty of converted tires is not having any more goathead flats. That alone makes stans worth it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRT BOY
    that they can run real semi slicks, hybrid style tires or even slicks as the courses are so tamed. MTB racing is basically an Fitness Event NOT a MTB race anymore.

    It really makes you wonder if these guys are skilled- or just super fit

    By the sounds of it the skills dont even come into play- why not just pave the whole course and make it a road race- Persoanlly I think it is the European influence; I know this will rub people up the wrong way but I do think the UCI is bad for mountainbiking.

    It is however good to see local races in the USA / Europe are similar to that in Australia, still quiet technical, and still fun all albeit hardwork. I'd hate to see our sport go down the drain- which it is not far off due to landrights- and teenage freeride "hukz0r@" ass jacks.
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  26. #26
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    In livigno, the terrain was for sure technical with step grade requiring traction and pretty technical downhill.
    And it is in the downhill that absalon made the gap with his UST equipped hardtail against stan's equipped Sausser, who was ridding a full susp (scalpel) !

    I've never had a flat with ust + sealant, and only rode eclipse style for rides where low psi were not necessary.
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    You've had success with Conti Explorers????

    When I run Conti Explorer it seems like the latex breaks down the rubber and in a short time the tire developes a great big bubble where it has broken down and getting ready to explode. I have had to swith to Schwalbe tires which donot have thie problem of the latex destroying the properties of the rubber.

    KMan


    Quote Originally Posted by doccoraje
    More than a year on eclipse with DT's 4,1 Conti explorer-escape, no problem and we have our share of rocky trails in GDL.

  28. #28
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    Yep

    Quote Originally Posted by KMan
    When I run Conti Explorer it seems like the latex breaks down the rubber and in a short time the tire developes a great big bubble where it has broken down and getting ready to explode. I have had to swith to Schwalbe tires which donot have thie problem of the latex destroying the properties of the rubber.

    KMan
    I was using homebrew latex for a year and a half, and just switched to Stan's sealant about 3 months ago, no problems to this moment. I don't remember the origin of my tires, but I've been runnig like 3 sets (back)

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMan
    When I run Conti Explorer it seems like the latex breaks down the rubber and in a short time the tire developes a great big bubble where it has broken down and getting ready to explode. I have had to swith to Schwalbe tires which donot have thie problem of the latex destroying the properties of the rubber.

    KMan
    I ran Stans with my Explorers and after the season didn't take apart my tires until spring and didn't see this breakdown. Right now I am using Stans with Kenda Klimax Lites, so far so good.

  30. #30
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    I use stan's with tubed tires and it's totaly worth the weight savings, rotating mass is where it counts. Beside if you hit a rock or what ever the right way your going to flat. I flatted on woodchips once with ust.

  31. #31
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    I have good results from stans: much less pinch flats; lighter weight, can use lower pressures to improve traction/handling without flatting.

    I have also found it: messy, a hassle at times, flats easier in rocky conditions with thin walled casings.

    If there is anything that makes me worry about using stans is sharp or ledgy rock areas. Under these conditions you can still use stans and get some benefits if you choose a thicker casing tire.

    You can burp/roll a tire of the rim at lower pressures (32psi and under) if you cross up the front wheel on a roll down or root, but this is pretty rare and is rider technique sensitive.

    Overall, I prefer to run stans on my race wheels because the advantages significant. 50/50 on my training wheels because of the hassle and mess.

  32. #32
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    Just remember one thing...

    Just remember that Stan is not a good preventive solution. It's probably the best tire sealant but one of the worst falt preventive!

    Eclipse latex is much more better but really expansive and becomes dry too quickly. So, now, I use Stan (30-40g) to seal my tires and then I put 50ml of Slime or any other green preventive (for MTB... or made for tractors,...)

    And if Slime is not a good tire sealant... It's a really good and cheap preventive!

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by olibabe
    Just remember that Stan is not a good preventive solution. It's probably the best tire sealant but one of the worst falt preventive!

    Eclipse latex is much more better but really expansive and becomes dry too quickly. So, now, I use Stan (30-40g) to seal my tires and then I put 50ml of Slime or any other green preventive (for MTB... or made for tractors,...)

    And if Slime is not a good tire sealant... It's a really good and cheap preventive!
    I stopped using Slime when I changed to Stan's, I thought they were not compatible.
    I think I'm going to Slime again.

  34. #34
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    You're right, they're not compatible, BUT I put the Slime after, when the Stan becomes dry and when the tire is sealed

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