Eclipse - Innertube: 56g !!!!- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Eclipse - Innertube: 56g !!!!

    Ok-here we go:
    i was telling you about those secret prototypes i was using since about past september. Now i am allowed to tell you some details. These tubes still aren't into production and what i show here is still a prototype although already very close to what the public will get later. it's only some minor details that get changed but the main features like weight and performance will remain untouched.

    Eclipse Tube: 26" x 1,8 -2,3 = 56g !!

    No this weight doesn't come along with all the usual weaknesses you would expect out of a lightweight inner tube. We all know how prone ultralight innertubes are. Tubes like Conti Supersonic or Maxxis Flyweight (both about 90-95g) suffer big time offroads. These inner tubes however have almost half the weight and in-house tests showed that the resistance to pinchflats is 30 times higher than regular butyl tubes. Also A LOT,lot better than any latex tube out there...

    I also reported about how many flats i got using Conti Supersonic tubes inside my Conti Race King Supersonic 2,2 tires. I got a flat almost every second ride!! I had 8 patches on the tubes before i changed them with these prototypes. Now i have done at least 1500km with these tubes and still haven't got a flat. I use them with the exact same Conti tires at the same pressure on the same trails...I don't even use the Eclipse sealant which is suggested to use. Since i am tester No.1 i am trying to get the best out of them without any sealant so i can really see how good they hold up. So far there hasn't been a single flat. Tire changes are a breeze. They mount as easy as any regular innertube. No fuss, no sealant, no compressor needed...just install and go.

    The inner tube is so thin it also offers the same ride quality than the tubelesskits do. There is a huge difference in the ride between regular tubes and these tubes! They really offer a much suppler ride and they definitely roll a lot faster too...it's like all the benefits of tubelesskits in a inner tube.

    I know that you guy out there will have a hard time to belive me but in about 2 months they should be available to the masses and rest assured they will have a huge impact on the cycling scene!

    Planned are 29"er tubes (i expect those to weigh about 60g), roadbike (i expect about 25-30g) and also Freeride/DH which shouldn't be much more than 65g.

    I will post better pics as soon as i get the pre-series tubes which i should get in the next couple of days.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2

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    The weight alone is pretty incredible, the other benefits sound great too. Have you heard anything about what kind of pricing these will carry? Will these be available in the US, or through European outlets only? I'm looking forward to hearing more on these, as they sound like a major break-through, if they hold up to your mini review.

  3. #3
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    Presta only? or are schraeders available too?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetta_mike
    Presta only? or are schraeders available too?
    Presta only. you can use an adapter if you want the "big" valve.

  5. #5
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    how long are the valves for the various tube variants?

  6. #6
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    As someone who's not very excited to go tubeless, these look great!

  7. #7
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    This is great news. I am still trying to get my new Race Kings completely sealed.

    Thanks!

  8. #8
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    Valve lenght...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheers!
    how long are the valves for the various tube variants?
    what you see is the valve lenght for all tubes. that's standard valve lenght.no different than on any other inner tube!

  9. #9
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    Nino,
    What kind of pressures were you running these at? You mentioned at one point running over curbs trying to pinch flat them. Any idea on goathead thorn resistance? or would that be where the added sealant is recommended?
    TIA

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    Presta only. you can use an adapter if you want the "big" valve.
    I am assuming these are removable presta valve cores if the option to add sealant is available, correct?

    BB

  11. #11
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    Awesome - if the price on these is remotely reasonable, this could be a revolution in the $/gram department for weight weenies who use tubes

  12. #12
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    If they're that puncture proof, even if they cost 4x what the Conti Supersonics do it would still be a bargain.
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  13. #13
    El Toro
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    and... what is the material is manufactured of?? I don't see it...

  14. #14
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    awesome!!!

    No more liquid yuck needed.
    3po armorless, the first weight weenie.

  15. #15
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    And is there a ribbed version for more tire pleasure?
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  16. #16
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    Looks great...
    What is bes for you: no tubes or this new tube (for the same tire, pressure without taking in account the mounting of no tubes)

    Do they loss air like a latex tube?

    What about price?

  17. #17
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    These look awesome Nino. Question ; doesn't it seem unusual that this product is planned to be made available for purchase in 2 months, when currently there's only 1 "beta" tester? I guess for me whether I want to be an early adopter based on limited field use (much as I respect your own personal testing) will be very dependent on price. The higher the price, the more likely I will be to let other people shake these down for a couple of months and then watch for feedback and experience from these early adopters.

    Also, just for curiousity, are you able to tell us what your relationship with this product is? In the past it's been unclear at times what is or is not "your" product i.e. are you an investor or somehow officially involved in another capacity? Not that this would keeep me from buying a good product at a reasonable price. It just helps to know where you are coming from.

    Is the product going to be available through standard distribution channnels (e.g. local bike store, etc.) or be a more of an eBay/specialty type of distribution?

  18. #18
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    Eclipse is a tubeless kit manufacturer in Switzerland. They appear to make the tubeless conversion kits for DT Swiss and Scott. These will likely be a mainstream LBS product as they become available.
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  19. #19
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    Certainly interresting.

    They would be the exact same weight as my tubeless setup - Yellow tape and valve + Sealant is 55grams for me. But then again they wouldn't seal any puntures etc.

  20. #20
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    Polyurethane ??? (loss air)

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    when currently there's only 1 "beta" tester?
    I would think there is a difference between "#1" and "only one"...

    Interesting. Are they designed to be used with sealant?

    I like how sealant helps with thorns around here, but I do not like to deal with mess. I was thinking about experimenting with getting some narrow, light tubes (like for 1" 26" tires) and adding some sealant inside, for still less weight, but more puncture resistance, but never got around experimenting. You can buy Slime tubes, but I found that they do not work as good as Stan's.

    I would think that a drawback will be that once sealant dries out (depends on permeability of the material how soon that happens) you would need to throw the tube out. Can not scrub and refill.

    Looking forward to try those out. I was always surprised nobody tried many new materials for MTB innertubes. Tons of interesting stuff out there, and many folks will pay a premium.

  22. #22
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    I'd like to know how well patches work on them, for the unexpected punctures.

    Also, will the 26" version stretch comfortably around a 29" rim? That would save me time waiting for the 29" version, I run 26" all the time anyway.
    I hope they'll offer a good gram price, I'll probably step in for all of my stable then :-)
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    These look awesome Nino. Question ; doesn't it seem unusual that this product is planned to be made available for purchase in 2 months, when currently there's only 1 "beta" tester? I guess for me whether I want to be an early adopter based on limited field use (much as I respect your own personal testing) will be very dependent on price. The higher the price, the more likely I will be to let other people shake these down for a couple of months and then watch for feedback and experience from these early adopters.

    Also, just for curiousity, are you able to tell us what your relationship with this product is? In the past it's been unclear at times what is or is not "your" product i.e. are you an investor or somehow officially involved in another capacity? Not that this would keeep me from buying a good product at a reasonable price. It just helps to know where you are coming from.

    Is the product going to be available through standard distribution channnels (e.g. local bike store, etc.) or be a more of an eBay/specialty type of distribution?
    Rest assured i'm not the only tester! BUT i am very close (best friend) to the main man behind Eclipse...and i am the one getting the news first. However i have nothing to do with Eclipse and this is not my product at all. I am however involved in the development stages...Besides many other local racers Eclipse has one of the worlds BEST XC-rider as their tester and you will most likely will see him use this product in the future....he became worldchampion using the Eclipse tubelesskit before and is now at the forefront again.

    It will once again take some time to get people convinced. We had the same happen with the tubelesskits before where only slowly and over the years the advantages got known and accepted.

    Yes- it will be available through distributors worldwide.

    answers to some questions above:
    -no air loss! These tubes keep the air thight for a long time.

    -the valve is removable just like you have it on tubelesskits too to be able to add some sealant

    -for the eventual pucture you have the sealant which should be able to take care of that.the tube comes with Eclipse-sealant so it's your choice if you run them with sealant right away or if you add it in case of a puncture. I haven't used any sealant so far...and never had a puncture until now.

    -i am using them inside my Conti RaceKing 2,2" at 1.9-2,0 bar pressure (ca. 28 psi)

  24. #24
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    Looks like the tubes they had on display at Interbike '07. I'll have to dig up the pics.
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  25. #25
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    Looking forward to the road bike tubes.....any ETA on those?

  26. #26
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    Nino, PM me when these are ready for market. I will buy a case!
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockyuphill
    Eclipse is a tubeless kit manufacturer in Switzerland. They appear to make the tubeless conversion kits for DT Swiss and Scott. These will likely be a mainstream LBS product as they become available.
    Yes, I know the history. I bought an Eclipse kit directly from Nino in 2003 way before it was licensed to DT as Eclipse's first corporate customer, and also before Stan's had commercial kits.

    I always appreciate the information from Nino as he truly does have some great connections and dedication to spreading the word about very cool parts. At the same time, when someone is introducing the latest and greatest and asking his observations and experiences to be treated with some validity, I believe it's also important to understand any relationship between the person and the product/company. While Nino is stating that he has nothing to do with Eclipse, many of his early posts on the topic several years ago had a distinct "we" tone that seemed to include him when talking about the company. With the cassette products Nino has frequently showed, and the I-Link housing systems, it's also been unclear at times who the product is actually being developed and marketed by, whether that's Nino or someone else.

    I'm very excited about the potential of these tubes, along with everyone else. It seems that it has always been held as an assumption that people wouldn't pay several times the cost (???) of a standard tube for a design in a newer material with huge advantages, and so no R&D was done in this area. Hopefully this will prove that assumption wrong.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by palmix
    Polyurethane ??? (loss air)

    By the way - anybody is using those Panaracer green polyurethane tubes? How do they hold up?

  29. #29
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    Hmmm.... guess I could live with a 20.66 lb FS bike instead of a 20.83 lb one....

    Especially seeing how I've had great luck with the Maxxis tubes. If these are that much better overall I'll be pleased though. I'll certainly grab 3 or 4 of them myself right away.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    By the way - anybody is using those Panaracer green polyurethane tubes? How do they hold up?

    I used them for years and never had any problems with them that I didn't have with regular tubes. They held up just fine. I'm running tubeless now though. I don't know if I'll consider these new tubes or not. With the Stan's rims I'm using now (Olympic rear, Race7000 front) I'm running 25/23 psi with the Race King 2.2s, and I love the traction. I don't know if I could go that low without worrying about pinch flats using the Eclipse tubes.

  31. #31
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    hurry up with the 29er version please.
    Out riding, leave a message

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Yes, I know the history. I bought an Eclipse kit directly from Nino in 2003 way before it was licensed to DT as Eclipse's first corporate customer, and also before Stan's had commercial kits.

    I always appreciate the information from Nino as he truly does have some great connections and dedication to spreading the word about very cool parts. At the same time, when someone is introducing the latest and greatest and asking his observations and experiences to be treated with some validity, I believe it's also important to understand any relationship between the person and the product/company. While Nino is stating that he has nothing to do with Eclipse, many of his early posts on the topic several years ago had a distinct "we" tone that seemed to include him when talking about the company. With the cassette products Nino has frequently showed, and the I-Link housing systems, it's also been unclear at times who the product is actually being developed and marketed by, whether that's Nino or someone else.

    I'm very excited about the potential of these tubes, along with everyone else. It seems that it has always been held as an assumption that people wouldn't pay several times the cost (???) of a standard tube for a design in a newer material with huge advantages, and so no R&D was done in this area. Hopefully this will prove that assumption wrong.
    I am no employe of Eclipse but since the main man at Eclipse is my best friend i am very close to what happens there. We both share our passion with bikes and it's only logical that things get discussed over and over together although i am not an employee. Therefore i can't tell you in all details what it's all about with this tube since i know only "the main line".

    The cassettes on the other hand is MY thing! I am the weight-weenie and it is me looking for ways to get light parts for bikes. It seems i have a good hand in finding/selecting parts and often i am offering them as one of the first worldwide. This however has nothing to do with Eclipse and is also not what i do for a living. I am a sculptor and a very passionate cyclist with interest in lightweight parts. It just happened i got into this over the years.

    The inner tube is now something that is VERY light and it gets made by my friend so sure i am excited about it. I had the opportunity to use them and they do perform even better than what we had expected. When i am so excited it is the weight-weenie inside me that is all happy because this inner tube is really offering great weight savings and makes life so much easier. I still can't see how this tube can be made in masses as by now every single tube is hand made and it takes quite some time to do so...so i am really interested how things get started and how he manages to get masses made. That's where i have no idea ....but the tubes perform great and that's what counts for now.

  33. #33
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    If they can make a "DH" tube that will stand up to that kind of abuse for 65gr, that would be unbelievable.

  34. #34
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    Is there an Eclipse website?

  35. #35
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    I currently run Forte Lunar Lite tubes @ 86g each. This is going to be a huge weight savings.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    By the way - anybody is using those Panaracer green polyurethane tubes? How do they hold up?
    They actually work OK. I've gotten 2 flats on them during the later half of last season, both were super small pin pricks that I didn't even notice until the next day. They are easily fixable with Park glueless patches which I can't say for Michelin latex which I usually use.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    By the way - anybody is using those Panaracer green polyurethane tubes? How do they hold up?
    I've used them. I had one tube last for over a year, maybe two years. i had another one go flat at the end of a race. The Conti Supersonic tubes I tried were terrible.
    I would try these but not if they cost three times as much as a regular tube.

  38. #38
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    well...

    Quote Originally Posted by limba
    I've used them. I had one tube last for over a year, maybe two years. i had another one go flat at the end of a race. The Conti Supersonic tubes I tried were terrible.
    I would try these but not if they cost three times as much as a regular tube.
    ...buying 3 tubes because you got flats isn't any cheaper and it is heavier and slower all the time!

    It's that common thinking that ultralight tubes equals weak tubes and many flats...this is wrong here! this tube is way superior in every aspect.

    I'd say most guys in this forum also buy the lighter, foldable version of a tire which costs 3 times as much as the heavier wire-version, right? that's because the performance is definitely< better while the tire is also lighter at the same time. But since this is a well known fact people just accept the steeper price tag.

    Same here - as soon as people will see the real benefits i'm sure they will be willing to accept its higher price. Time will tell. I know it sounds weird and unreal that such a light tube is actually better but this is how things are.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell
    Looks like the tubes they had on display at Interbike '07. I'll have to dig up the pics.
    Correction: It was actually at the '08 Cycle Show in Taipei where I saw something similar. They performed a demonstration that showed punctures leaked very slowly as long as the object was still in the tire/tube. They also showed that by using a lighter it was possible to soften/melt the material at the site of the puncture, one could then pinch the material together and effectively repair the tube. No patch needed- just a lighter.

    Nino, is this possibly the same product? Perhaps Eclipse bought the patent?



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  40. #40

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    Is the valve aluminium?

  41. #41
    FIRENZE rulez !!
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    looks like ... a rim flap... not a tube ....

    but the weight is so incredible

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell
    Nino, is this possibly the same product? Perhaps Eclipse bought the patent?
    NO - that's not the same and has nothing to do with the Eclipse tube.

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    Quote Originally Posted by diziq
    Is the valve aluminium?
    yes - the valve is aluminium.

  44. #44
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    what kind of material are the eclipse tubes made of?

  45. #45
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    Material...

    Quote Originally Posted by sergio_pt
    what kind of material are the eclipse tubes made of?
    some kind of rubber
    sorry - more details when it's available.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    NO - that's not the same and has nothing to do with the Eclipse tube.
    Well, it is some new transparent plastic, and they are somewhat puncture resistant. Glad to see that Eclipse are not the only ones trying to innovate a bit. (I would bet on Taiwan companies being able to bring it into mass production if it works)

    About time. I want light, puncture resistant tubes and no more sealant mess and maintenance. If they last for a long time I would not mind paying a good fraction of a new tire cost for a tube.

  47. #47
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    would love to put these (700c version) in my cyclocross tubulars, maybe they'll be available for next season.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    some kind of rubber
    sorry - more details when it's available.
    Kinda out of subject but Nino could you please get contact me back. I've sent you emails and PMs last week and haven't heard from you since. Thanks

  49. #49
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    I'm sick of the teasing. Just let us know when/where we can buy them, and we'll review!

    Also do these require talc-ing
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTM
    would love to put these (700c version) in my cyclocross tubulars, maybe they'll be available for next season.
    I imagine that would be quite difficult, no? Unless you're running "open tubulars" on clincher rims.
    A hardtail is forever

  51. #51
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    Not really, you would put the new tube in just like when you replace a flatted latex tube: Remove base tape, unsew tubular, remove latex tube, install new tube, re-sew, glue down base tape. I've done it, although lately I pay a guy in Florida to do it for me for $20.

    If available in time, I'd just have mine made with the new innertubes to begin with, can't see why Dugast and FMB wouldn't oblige if I supplied the tubes.

  52. #52
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    very interesting. i will be lurking on this thread.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by sir_crackien
    very interesting. i will be lurking on this thread.
    Too late, you are already actively participating.

  54. #54
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    Any word on who these guys are?

    Quote Originally Posted by bholwell
    Correction: It was actually at the '08 Cycle Show in Taipei where I saw something similar. They performed a demonstration that showed punctures leaked very slowly as long as the object was still in the tire/tube. They also showed that by using a lighter it was possible to soften/melt the material at the site of the puncture, one could then pinch the material together and effectively repair the tube. No patch needed- just a lighter.

    Any info on who these guys are? Have they brought them to market? Under what brand?

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by reformed roadie
    Any info on who these guys are? Have they brought them to market? Under what brand?
    I can't recall the name of the company, but at the time they were still in the testing phase. I'll look for them again next month.
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  56. #56
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    I'm a member of NSMBA and IMBA Canada

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockyuphill
    Apparently it was a company called Foss
    Interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foss Worldwide
    • Our EFT are a highly polymerized un-vulcanized rubber composite. When punctured, the material forms and air-tight seal retarding the leak speed giving the rider extra time to make safe repairs.
    • 30% lighter than the competition, EFT have a density if only 0.88 g/cc compared to that traditional tubes which can have densities up to 1.3 g/cc.
    • The elasticity of EFT make them resistant to punctures and pinches providing added safety for riders.
    • Made from modified thermoplastic elastomer compounds (TPE), EFT can be recycled with other TPE products protecting the environment by minimizing waste.
    I wonder what this magic Eclipse tube is made from and how it compares.

    Anybody sells this Foss thing? I bet it will be much cheaper then anything from Switzerland.

  58. #58
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    Interesting coincidence.

    Foss "completed production line" on Jan 16.

    And passed standard reliability test on January 20, clearing it for being sold from Taiwan.

    And a couple weeks later our Swiss friends go public with something that oddly resembles that product (at least in the claimed performance benefits and appearance).


  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    Interesting coincidence.

    Foss "completed production line" on Jan 16.

    And passed standard reliability test on January 20, clearing it for being sold from Taiwan.

    And a couple weeks later our Swiss friends go public with something that oddly resembles that product (at least in the claimed performance benefits and appearance).

    Can't get much closer looking than that, huh?

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    Interesting coincidence.



    And a couple weeks later our Swiss friends go public with something that oddly resembles that product (at least in the claimed performance benefits and appearance).
    sorry - but once again these china-tubes have nothing to do with the Eclipse tube from SWITZERLAND!!

    we had this exact same debate in the german ww-forum and even Foss replied that they have nothing to do with Eclipse at all:
    "The product from the company Eclipse is not FOSS’s product [...]

    The weight of our product the EFT is depending on the size, around 60g (20/25C-32C) – 120g (26/2.3-2.6) "

    They use some sort of Thermoplastic rubber.Repairs can be done using a lighter and a screwdriver to melt a possible hole together....no kidding! this can be found on their flyers instructions on how to repair.

    release date: "soon"...strange since they already showed up on the 2008 Taipeh show last spring!



    I'd say it's pretty obvious that with this weight it has nothing in common with the 56g Eclipse tube.
    Last edited by nino; 02-10-2009 at 11:57 PM.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    sorry - but once again these china-tubes have nothing to do with the Eclipse tube from SWITZERLAND!!
    There is no need to shout, as we all just learned about both of the products and asking questions. If you do not want us speculating, then quit playing hard to get and hinting and just provide solid data.

    And, frankly, I find nothing special about Eclipse being from Switzerland, besides the usual expectation of being overpriced and heavily hyped. Taiwan is more then capable of producing quality products, and that particular product is obviously not targeted directly to weight savings. If it is durable, close to 100g for 2.0", and cheap, it will have its place.

    As far as having nothing in common - we will see when we know more about the material used by Eclipse and its other properties. So far, no data is available.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    There is no need to shout, as we all just learned about both of the products and asking questions. If you do not want us speculating, then quit playing hard to get and hinting and just provide solid data.

    And, frankly, I find nothing special about Eclipse being from Switzerland, besides the usual expectation of being overpriced and heavily hyped. Taiwan is more then capable of producing quality products, and that particular product is obviously not targeted directly to weight savings. If it is durable, close to 100g for 2.0", and cheap, it will have its place.

    As far as having nothing in common - we will see when we know more about the material used by Eclipse and its other properties. So far, no data is available.
    It's made inesclamation since people seemed to believe i was presenting the Eclipse tube when in reality it was just a relabelled Foss...not so!

    sorry-at the specifications of the diameter of the Eclipse tube i doubt you can find a cheap source in asia. Rest assured that Eclipse has done their homework and so far only very few are able to extrude such thin material with constant thickness and quality.

    I can only provide the data i am sure of which is the weight, the ride and the looks. i am not involved in the manufacturing and actually didn't care of the details too much. I got the tubes and ride theem since a couple of months without any issues. That's it.

    I think Eclipse will tell the details when the tubes get released. Maybe i can get more info before that but i really don't care as long asthey perform as they do.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    It's made inesclamation since people seemed to believe i was presenting the Eclipse tube when in reality it was just a relabelled Foss...not so!
    I was not suggesting that. I just found it to be an interesting coincidence that two products innovating in a visibly similar direction (for the lack of better data) are coming to market at the same time, after years of little progress in this technology. I am sure Eclipse will provide better quality - judging by their previous work.

    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    I can only provide the data i am sure of which is the weight, the ride and the looks. i am not involved in the manufacturing and actually didn't care of the details too much. I got the tubes and ride theem since a couple of months without any issues. That's it.
    I understand. That's why I (and I am sure a lot of other people on this board) am looking forward for further details as they come out.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    I was not suggesting that. I just found it to be an interesting coincidence that two products innovating in a visibly similar direction (for the lack of better data) are coming to market at the same time, after years of little progress in this technology. I am sure Eclipse will provide better quality - judging by their previous work.



    I understand. That's why I (and I am sure a lot of other people on this board) am looking forward for further details as they come out.
    Oh, come on! Normally, I stay out of these "discussions," but I'm calling total and complete BS on this latest comment of yours. You were OBVIOUSLY suggesting that this new Eclipse tube was the same as the Foss product. At least have the guts to own up to it, eh?

    Even if not--and I doubt that you were not--you were, at the very least, trying to bully Nino into telling us more information. I'm sure more info will come out when it's available. If you really just want to know more, I'm pretty sure that there are better ways to "ask.'

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    Well...

    Well Curmy was drawing our attention to a VERY similar product, releasing @ the same time...I mean as far as weight, '30%'less could mean 100gms minus 30% = 70gms...

    A lot of parallel; no?

    Oh, and more free adverts for possible distrubution....

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecoast
    Well Curmy was drawing our attention to a VERY similar product, releasing @ the same time...I mean as far as weight, '30%'less could mean 100gms minus 30% = 70gms...

    A lot of parallel; no?
    no - if the main purpose of that other tube would be minimal weight they would clearly state it...they don't. Instead they just say it's 30% lighter which for me means 30% lighter than a conventional tube which usually is about 150g.

    It seems i'm right since they even confirmed the weights as following:
    "The weight of our product the EFT is depending on the size, around 60g (20/25C-32C) – 120g (26/2.3-2.6) "

    So a 20" BMX tube is 60g, a real MTB tube is 100-120g. Still light but nowhere near as light as the Eclipse tube.

    Then that other tube was presented already last spring at Taipeh cycle show while Eclipse still hasn't showed their product officially.

  67. #67
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    Nino

    Following this thread and the RK thread. I am new to ghetto tubeless (have been using it for only 1 month) and have not even fitted my own tyres yet.

    Are you saying that once these tubes are out you will be using them and ditching a Stans tubeless set up altogether?

  68. #68
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    uuuuh!

    Quote Originally Posted by celestequattro
    Nino

    Following this thread and the RK thread. I am new to ghetto tubeless (have been using it for only 1 month) and have not even fitted my own tyres yet.

    Are you saying that once these tubes are out you will be using them and ditching a Stans tubeless set up altogether?
    I never used Stans!
    I am using Eclipse only!!!

    yes - i already converted all my bikes back to these tubes! They offer all the advantages of the tubelesskits without the hassle of installation, possible leaks and allow for quick and easy tire changes...

  69. #69
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    I don't see the problem people have here, great product. Nino do I order them from you when they're available?

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    Quote Originally Posted by saga
    I don't see the problem people have here, great product. Nino do I order them from you when they're available?
    It's not about me selling them!

    They will be sold through distributors worldwide.

  71. #71
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    Nino

    Thanks for the reply.

    These tubes will be an answer to my prayers! Please let us know when they are out. Will make switching tyres dead easy and saves another 45g on the spare in my back pocket.

  72. #72
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    Weeno,

    So how did you come up with 30 times more resitant to pinch flats than normal tubes number? How was this measured?

    How are you testing these in the middle of winter? What type of riding was done to test?

    What test was used to measure rolling resitance?

    How many miles do you have on these tubes?
    beaver hunt

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaLove
    Oh, come on! Normally, I stay out of these "discussions," but I'm calling total and complete BS on this latest comment of yours. You were OBVIOUSLY suggesting that this new Eclipse tube was the same as the Foss product. At least have the guts to own up to it, eh?
    No, I was not. I would not bother quoting my own posts - I suggest you improve your reading comprehension.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaLove
    you were, at the very least, trying to bully Nino in to telling us more information. '
    Yes, I was.

  74. #74
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    I have a question, and I'm surprised it hasn't been asked yet. I ride through goathead/tumbleweed/cactus country, so flat prevention is essential.

    Before going tubeless, I tried using sealant-filled tubes. After the inevitable thorn, sealant would puddle between the tube/tire... Air pressure is what forces sealant into a puncture, and is the whole idea behind tubeless actually working. When you use sealant-filled tubes, the pressure to force sealant into a thorn puncture is no longer there. It will instead just leak gobs of sealant out and not have a boundary of air to dry.

    How can it take the place of tubeless in conditions where deciduous spikes make their home?
    Last edited by Kyle2834; 02-11-2009 at 08:29 PM.
    ***

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    Rest assured that Eclipse has done their homework and so far only very few are able to extrude such thin material with constant thickness and quality.
    Sure they have. They are called condoms. Millions are made a year.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheers!
    Sure they have. They are called condoms. Millions are made a year.

    Good point. Now we need a glow-in-the-dark ribbed version of Eclipse tubes.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheers!
    Sure they have. They are called condoms. Millions are made a year.
    There's likely more than a few kids born every year because of small holes in condoms.
    I'm a member of NSMBA and IMBA Canada

  78. #78
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    [QUOTE=Curmy]No, I was not. I would not bother quoting my own posts - I suggest you improve your reading comprehension.
    QUOTE]

    Just sad, eh?

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaLove
    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    No, I was not. I would not bother quoting my own posts - I suggest you improve your reading comprehension.
    Just sad, eh?

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle2834
    I have a question, and I'm surprised it hasn't been asked yet. I ride through goathead/tumbleweed/cactus country, so flat prevention is essential.

    Before going tubeless, I tried using sealant-filled tubes. After the inevitable thorn, sealant would puddle between the tube/tire... Air pressure is what forces sealant into a puncture, and is the whole idea behind tubeless actually working. When you use sealant-filled tubes, the pressure to force sealant into a thorn puncture is no longer there. It will instead just leak gobs of sealant out and not have a boundary of air to dry.

    How can it take the place of tubeless in conditions where deciduous spikes make their home?
    Finally a good point:
    The whole idea is to have a tube so thin that mimicks the skin which sealant usually forms inside tubeless conversions. Such a thin "skin" is really attached to the inside of the tire and less of an individual part inside the tire. It is much softer and more flexible...by the way - this is what reduces the rolling resistance! We all know that sealant inside a regular tube isn't doing too good. Only minor holes can be sealed (only using good sealants that is!). The constant movement/flex inside the tire makes holes re-open and leak again. Also a streched Butyl tube has a tendency to rip open once there is a cut or hole. There is so much strech on the material and the material itself isn't too elastic. That's why minor holes or cuts end up bigger in regular tubes.

    So the idea was to get a really thin skin inside the tire. Now this skin is out of an extraordinary rubber which is far more resistant than any other tube out there.It is extremely elastic yet extremely resistant to cuts. So far it seems the concept is working. We had Thomas Frischknecht riding it in Tuscany /Italy where you have lots of thorns and sharp rocks.I know that place, i go there every spring too and usually you get a flat about every hour when riding in a group! Everyone has to carry at least 1 spare tube because of this and often we found ourselves fixing flats because we run out of tubes....in 2000 i started riding "tubeless" with sealant and didn't get punctures anymore....now Frischi never got a flat using the Eclipse tube as well...for me this is like the ultimate test. If it does withstand riding down there it s really doing extremely well.

    Basically the tube is just acting as a sealant skin yet there is still sealant inside if ever you get a puncture from a thorn. The material of the tube is so resistant it is almost impossible to get a snakebite. Sure you still can get a flat. There is no such thing like 100% protection but so far for me they come very close.

    The advantage over Tubeless conversions is it is airthight right from the beginning ! No possible airleaks, no fiddling with compressors or adding more selant or having the tire half flat the next day, no messy sealant...the tube is handled like any other tube, mounts easy with EVERY tire and you don't need any practice to set it up unlike tubeless conversions where too many people stay away because of all the hassle that is involved. You often need a compressor, some tires are simply too porous and won't seal or will do so only after serious treatment...anyway - with this inner tube you will get the same benefits but with a much easier setup. Tire changes are easy and can be done minutes before a start...no special kits for specific rims. No guidelines to follow, no restrictions at all. This tube just fits. The whole things is just that : it is EASY, LIGHT and WORKS.

    Important note : tubeless conversions do work great if set up right!! If you did it a couple of times you get accustomed to it, you know the tricks and know how to act whenever there is a problem. I used tubelesskits since 8 years and i can seal almost every tire (important note: almost) But there's many,many people that still have their fare share of problems when trying to set up a tire using sealant. And we all know - It can be a mess. I doubt there is riders that didn't have their fare share of problems while setting up some tires. Only experience helps in getting some tires to seal 100%...no wonder you see so many questions asked about tubelesskits: "Is tire XY ok to be used with sealant?...."Is setup XY going to work'"..."What pressure do you use with sealant?"...."Will tire XY inflate using a floorpump?"....

    ...you all know what i mean.

    This should come to an end with the Eclipse tube. EVERYONE, even your grandmother, knows how a inner tube works. No explanation needed. No instructions to follow. It fits and works. If you use sealant is up to you. Those looking for best flat-protection might add some right away. Others might use it without any sealant and just pour some in in case of a flat (like myself).

    I hope i could explain a bit better what it is all about. Don't ask me about chemical details etc. ...i don't know which exact material or other detailed specifications. I just told you what i know and so far it works.

    Only time will tell if it is really that good. It will still take some time to be available...once available rest assured you will know about it.
    Last edited by nino; 02-12-2009 at 01:43 AM.

  81. #81
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    Wow. Well that's a cool idea. If it works. Can't wait to give it a try.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    . EVERYONE, even your grandmother, knows how a inner tube works. No explanation needed.
    Yeah, that's explains people complaining about $25 flat repair bills in an LBS in the "beginner" area of this forum.

    All in all, prod your friend to ship us some finished product, or at least some more technical data on the material.

    By the way, as far as tubes and sealant - thick glycol sealant, such as Slime's stuff already works somewhat. I could imagine that sealant for the new tube should also be designed in tandem with tube's properties.
    Last edited by Broccoli; 02-12-2009 at 11:39 AM.

  83. #83
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    Maybe you will have to test it in humid weather, i mean, different conditions from USA.... I suggest to test it in Brazil !! Just tell me, I will be happy to help lol

  84. #84
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    So, does Frischi already have Dugasts with these tubes? That should be the ultimate of ultimates?

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    So, does Frischi already have Dugasts with these tubes? That should be the ultimate of ultimates?
    nah - not yet.he wants but there's some hurdles to overcome...

  86. #86
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    condoms also have these kind of properties nino decribed maybe its a similar material.

    whats the estimated price for one innertube nino?

  87. #87
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    hey nino... when are these going to be available? what is the projected price? seems like you have lots of people salivating over them....

  88. #88
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    2-3 months...

    Quote Originally Posted by whybotherme
    hey nino... when are these going to be available? what is the projected price? seems like you have lots of people salivating over them....
    As i already wrote in my initial post it might take another 2-3 months go get them. Although i doubt that there will be masses available seeing how thing progress over here...Pricing is still in the air since it was planned to sell them together with sealant only. So not just a tube but rather a "system" just like a tubelesskit. But from the reactions it seems most won't use sealant anway so the tube might be available just individually as well.

    Anyway -it will definitely cost more than your typical Latex-tube. It is not made in asia and there's quite a lot involved in doing it...made in Switzerland!

  89. #89
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    Chasing windmills?

    Wow, 4 pages on something that isn't even known if it can be mass produced yet?

    Looks great, but call us back in a few months when it's on the shelf.

  90. #90
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    If a product isn't available, people aren't allowed to talk about it?
    3po armorless, the first weight weenie.

  91. #91
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    What a pity it wasn't released before!


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  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by fernandoj
    What a pity it wasn't released before!

    1st time i would like to see some tubes explode

  94. #94
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    Amazing looking woman. Too bad see seems to know she is.

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    I wonder how she rides tubeless....

  96. #96
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    48g !

    well - yesterday was the 8th birthday of my son and since the main man at Eclipse is his godfather he got 2 tubes for his next 24" bike that i am already building. It will get summer before he can throw a leg over it...he is still to small.

    anyway - these tubes weigh 48g!!

    easily saved 100g per wheel. i tried hard to find lightweight inner tubes in this particular size but found only some Schwalbe tubes at 145g or so.Still 15g lighter than the tubes i already got with that bike... The weight-weenie i am i still ordered those Schwalbes and was happy about the 30g savings total....but now i see them collect dust in my basement



    I just realized that my BMX Cruiser also has 24" wheels...hmmm...so 4" lenght weigh ca. 8g.....if i'm right BMX bikes have 20"...so we would be looking at around 40g for a 20" BMX inner tube...not bad.

    Same for 29" wheels....if you add a couple of inches we would look at 29" tubes of ca. 65g !
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    Last edited by nino; 02-25-2009 at 12:00 AM.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    well - yesterday was the 8th birthday of my son and since the main man at Eclipse is his godfather he got 2 tubes for his next 24" bike that i am already building. It will get summer before he can throw a leg over it...he is still to small.
    Sounds cool - post some pics of the junior bike build
    MTB evangelist.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    Amazing looking woman. Too bad see seems to know she is.
    Too right.

    Nothing wrong with a girl with confidence, though...I just wish Australian magazine editors would have the confidence to SHOOT SOME OTHER FEMALE MODEL OTHER THAN GUDEX once in a while. C'mon guys, what about Nikki Fisher??

    Anyhoo, wow, can't wait for those Eclipse tubes
    MTB evangelist.

  99. #99
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    Nino, any projected sale dates?
    "This is a male-dominated forum... there will be lots of Testosterone sword-shaming here" ~ Kenfucius

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    How much does the sealant weigh?
    How easy are they to fix?
    How hot can I run them?

    I ride in 44c + (in the shade). Will they handle this?
    What's the max psi for them?

    Who, what and how were they tested to be 30x less to puncture?
    You should be able to provide information if you post the claims

  101. #101
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    well...

    Quote Originally Posted by ash240
    How much does the sealant weigh?
    How easy are they to fix?
    How hot can I run them?

    I ride in 44c + (in the shade). Will they handle this?
    What's the max psi for them?

    Who, what and how were they tested to be 30x less to puncture?
    You should be able to provide information if you post the claims
    -I don't add any sealant at all---->0g
    For those wanting to use sealant i'd say 30g will be sufficient for best protection. The tubes are completely airthight so unlike in tires where you always have some slight airloss these tubes remain inflated. no need for re-inflation on a constant basis therefore less of a humidity loss and less chance the sealant dries out inside.

    -They can be fixed using Park Tool patches for example.

    -about 400 degrees celsius or even more if you like --->no problem inside bicycles rims.So yes for sure they will handle your riding temperatures.

    -Max. psi is definitely more than your tires can handle...or have you ever had a tube explode inside your tire??? I don't.

    -Tested under a hydraulic press using a 10mm wide steel shaft which mimicked the contact area of a rim hitting the ground. Pressure was applied until the shaft cut through. The material was approx. 30 times more resistant than your typical butyl tube.

    i think that's all you asked
    Last edited by nino; 02-25-2009 at 05:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    -Tested under a hydraulic press using a 10mm wide steel shaft which mimicked the contact area of a rim hitting the ground. Pressure was applied until the shaft cut through. The material was approx. 30 times more resistant than your typical butyl tube.

    i think that's all you asked
    That's quite a test! However, it sounds like that's more applicable to a pinch-flat situation than a puncture situation - a cactus thorn or goathead will not be 10mm wide. What sort of puncture dangers are you facing in your daily riding? The fact that you've gone so long without a flat is (to me) more impressive than the testing, and also more informative.

  103. #103
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    correct...

    Quote Originally Posted by PlasticBike
    That's quite a test! However, it sounds like that's more applicable to a pinch-flat situation than a puncture situation - a cactus thorn or goathead will not be 10mm wide. What sort of puncture dangers are you facing in your daily riding? The fact that you've gone so long without a flat is (to me) more impressive than the testing, and also more informative.
    correct - that's pinch-flat testing.

    Thorns are for sure a different story and for sure such a thin tube is not bombproof against them but as mentioned i did 1500 km without any flats where i had a flat every second outing before using the supersonics. It's hard to judge the resistance when you still haven't flatted. Frischi was using them in Tuscany/Italy where there are LOTs of thorns as well and didn't get a flat...so rest assured they do perform better than your usual tube.

  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachariah
    Nino, any projected sale dates?
    post#88
    3po armorless, the first weight weenie.

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachariah
    Nino, any projected sale dates?
    post#88

    2-3 months
    3po armorless, the first weight weenie.

  106. #106
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    Well, it sounds like they are better than regular tubes but to put them in the same class as tubeless is probably overstating it a bit. Yeah they have less mess but that isnt a big deal. It isnt like you have sealant all over the garage after mounting a tire. With tubeless you are basically flat free with the exception of large tears in the tire casing. Tubes dont do well with those either. Sealant is going to work better for punctures from thorns. Weight is the same or better with sealant.

    I'd probably still opt to carry one of these as a spare but quite frankly i have never had to use a spare tube since switching to Stan's.

    I will use these in my kid's bmx bike though. Tubeless isnt too easy to mount on 20" rims.

    Funny thing, a few months ago i used my spare on my Mom's bike. Turns out that my spare had a puncture from being in my tool bag. So maybe these tubes will be more resistant to puntures while sitting in the tool bag?

  107. #107
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    Most important is the ability to change out tires easily, especially for racing. Tubeless doesn't make this very easy.

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feideaux
    Too right.

    Nothing wrong with a girl with confidence, though...I just wish Australian magazine editors would have the confidence to SHOOT SOME OTHER FEMALE MODEL OTHER THAN GUDEX once in a while. C'mon guys, what about Nikki Fisher??

    Anyhoo, wow, can't wait for those Eclipse tubes
    I'd like to see Gunn-Rita or Irina wearing TUBELESS!
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  109. #109
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    There's always this calendar
    Attached Images Attached Images
    I'm a member of NSMBA and IMBA Canada

  110. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTM
    Most important is the ability to change out tires easily, especially for racing. Tubeless doesn't make this very easy.
    And even more important it means no longer having to tear my hair out trying to inflate a rogue tyre that just point blank refuses to.

    Have lost countless hours of my life to these innocent looking spawns of the devil.

    This new tube I will definitely try.

  111. #111
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    It never fails with tubeless, one tire mounts up with a floor pump and the other takes a trip to the gas station to use their air compressor.
    I'm a member of NSMBA and IMBA Canada

  112. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockyuphill
    It never fails with tubeless, one tire mounts up with a floor pump and the other takes a trip to the gas station to use their air compressor.
    Or your Crappy Tire 7 gallon air tank with the tire chuck cut off the hose. The tubing fits the Presta valve stem quite nicely. A small hose clamp, and you can open the valve on the tank to air them up with 120 psi of air!

  113. #113
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    I have an air compressor and there are still those times when I want to smash my head into the ground.

  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockyuphill
    There's always this calendar
    Thanx Rocky....[SLURP]...that will tide my impatience!!!
    "This is a male-dominated forum... there will be lots of Testosterone sword-shaming here" ~ Kenfucius

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    correct - that's pinch-flat testing.

    Thorns are for sure a different story and for sure such a thin tube is not bombproof against them but as mentioned i did 1500 km without any flats where i had a flat every second outing before using the supersonics. It's hard to judge the resistance when you still haven't flatted. Frischi was using them in Tuscany/Italy where there are LOTs of thorns as well and didn't get a flat...so rest assured they do perform better than your usual tube.
    Did Frischi use sealent in Tuscany? Do you have any updates as to when these will be available? I cant wait to try them out!

  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockyuphill
    There's always this calendar
    That just proves once again that Ergon green color doesn't go with anything.

  117. #117
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    Any news here?

  118. #118
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    Nino,
    Is there a way you could find out who the distributor will be? I would like to get that info so that I can carry these tubes. Feel free to PM / email me anytime w/ whatever specifics you may get.
    Thanks,
    Zach
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  119. #119
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    it's still too early

    Quote Originally Posted by zach.scofield
    Nino,
    Is there a way you could find out who the distributor will be? I would like to get that info so that I can carry these tubes. Feel free to PM / email me anytime w/ whatever specifics you may get.
    Thanks,
    Zach
    Hi Zach,
    you didn't mention where you are and i am the wrong guy to ask anyway.Just get in touch with Eclipse direct...they will know. I don't. Usually i think it might be those who carried the Eclipse-tubelesskits before.

    bye
    nino

    @JB:
    latest news is that Thomas Frischknecht, Nino Schurter (silver medaillist at the '08 olympics) and Florian Vogel ('08 european champion,silver medaillist at the '08 worldchampionships) and many other top-racers are/were testing these tubes under severe conditions in Tuscany/Italy.

  120. #120
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    So when are we going to find out pricing?

  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbnozpikr
    So when are we going to find out pricing?
    in front of the counter?

    c'mon guys.the parts are not out yet.you will know soon enough. But anyway - it will be one of the cheapest weight savings on our bikes!

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    But anyway - it will be one of the cheapest weight savings on our bikes!
    Given that $1/g may be considered a good ratio, and those tubes save 50g+, I just hope they will be cheaper then a decent set or tires.

  123. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    in front of the counter?

    c'mon guys.the parts are not out yet.you will know soon enough. But anyway - it will be one of the cheapest weight savings on our bikes!
    Now isn't soon enough

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB.
    Now isn't soon enough
    i have them since september '08...so i don't really care

  125. #125
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    Not trying to beat a dead horse or anything, but considering that most companies with new products (magura marta sl magnesium, formula r1) have an announced price, or at least an idea of what their new product is going to cost well in advance, I just thought that there might be something more known about these tubes.

  126. #126
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    Just stumbled upon this thread and will keep an eye out for them.

  127. #127
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    Nino,
    Any updates on the tubes?
    "The original concept of freeriding was that there was no set course, goals or rules to abide by. "
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  128. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by zach.scofield
    Nino,
    Any updates on the tubes?
    Not really. Production is on the way so release will be sometimes this summer. I don't think they can produce enough for the demand at first so there will only be a limited number of tubes available. These are HANDMADE over here in Switzerland. Unlike the production on a regular butyl inner tube these actually need to be assembled completely by hand.

    BTW - just yesterday i went for a training ride with young racers over here in Switzerland and on a very steep DH-section we had two nice blow-offs of tires mounted with a tubeless conversion (not Eclipse- another famous one). At the base of that really steep section we had 2 guys having to re-inflate their tires.... and one having to mount a inner tube, the other one could air up his front tire again.
    ...it won't happen again with a inner tube.
    Last edited by nino; 04-07-2009 at 10:49 PM.

  129. #129
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    [QUOTE=nino But anyway - it will be one of the cheapest weight savings on our bikes![/QUOTE]


    Unless these tubes are lighter than Sealant, no saving to be found.
    beaver hunt

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    ...there will only be a limited number of tubes available. These are HANDMADE over here in Switzerland...
    I'm betting they'll cost more than a new set of tires.

  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino

    BTW - just yesterday i went for a training ride with young racers over here in Switzerland and on a very steep DH-section we had two nice blow-offs of tires mounted with a tubeless conversion (not Eclipse- another famous one). At the base of that really steep section we had 2 guys having to re-inflate their tires.... and one having to mount a inner tube, the other one could air up his front tire again.
    ...it won't happen again with a inner tube.
    i've seen the difference in performance between an ECLIPSE system and NOTUBES... No wonder eclipse is going to be making tubes.

  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowdrifter
    Unless these tubes are lighter than Sealant, no saving to be found.
    These things weigh less less than most rim strips or cut-up tubes needed to convert to tubeless. Then you add the weight of sealant on top of that

  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    . These are HANDMADE over here in Switzerland.
    Beside the obvious cost issues, I fail to see any advantages of manual labor or the geographical location for something as straightforward as a rubber tube.

    If it is not ready for production - it is not ready for production, simple as that.

  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowdrifter
    Unless these tubes are lighter than Sealant, no saving to be found.
    sorry - you are wrong!

    sealant: ca. 50-80g
    valve: ca. 10g
    rimstrip of any sort 5-30g

    do the math - thanks!

    oh and while you are at it maybe also take into account the duration of a tire change....1 minute with innertube VS sometimes a couple of days for tubeless conversions.

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevbikemad
    i've seen the difference in performance between an ECLIPSE system and NOTUBES... No wonder eclipse is going to be making tubes.
    And i have seen how Notubes performs just yesterday

    Reading in this forum alone reveals that many,many people are having issues getting their tires to seal properly with tubelesskits....if you have read the main purpose of this tube and all it's advantages you will see that there are many benefits.

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    Beside the obvious cost issues, I fail to see any advantages of manual labor or the geographical location for something as straightforward as a rubber tube.

    If it is not ready for production - it is not ready for production, simple as that.
    Problem is you can't produce them mechanically/automatically! The material it is made of is pretty specific and they need to be made by hand.

    They aren't as straightforward as you think. But they are about to be released soon.

  137. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    Problem is you can't produce them mechanically/automatically! The material it is made of is pretty specific and they need to be made by hand.
    I fail to see how it is a good thing. If this technology is to have any long-term feature, automation issues need to be solved. I guess that where production capacity and capital for equipment helps large Asian producers.

    We know how good are hand made tubulars, but for pretty much everybody who does not ride for a living that is utterly irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    And i have seen how Notubes performs just yesterday
    Yeah, and we all know very well how unbiased you are. NoTubes performs just fine.

  138. #138
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    what's your problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    I fail to see how it is a good thing. If this technology is to have any long-term feature, automation issues need to be solved. I guess that where production capacity and capital for equipment helps large Asian producers.

    We know how good are hand made tubulars, but for pretty much everybody who does not ride for a living that is utterly irrelevant.
    The production problem is not yours. You will buy one if you like if not let it be. How they are going to be produced is pretty much irrelevant.

    Do you like your frame handmade in the US or Italy etc... or mass produced by an asian company? It's pretty much the same here. I personally don't care as long as the quality of the part is ok.

  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    How they are going to be produced is pretty much irrelevant.
    Cost and availability are not irrelevant. People can do one off prototypes, brag about them and nobody cares. As of right now Eclipse tubes as a product do not exist. Product means something one can order.

    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    Do you like your frame handmade in the US or Italy etc... or mass produced by an asian company? It's pretty much the same here. I personally don't care as long as the quality of the part is ok.
    I like my frame to be well made and perform well. If not for mass produced frames the sport of mountain biking would be non-existent.

  140. #140
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    everything can be automated with the right machines. If It is a new process maybe it needs new machines to be invented to the task....

  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by sergio_pt
    everything can be automated with the right machines. If It is a new process maybe it needs new machines to be invented to the task....
    That is a good point, but how many companies would invest in inventing a new machine for a product without any proven market? That takes guts, deep pockets, or a thick skull

  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    That is a good point, but how many companies would invest in inventing a new machine for a product without any proven market? That takes guts, deep pockets, or a thick skull
    Lets have Eclipse do the maths correctly. Hopefully they will to keep the costs and the final price as low as possible. I think producing this part all by a very complicated manual labour in SWITZERLANL is a part of an excuse to release the innertube with a very high price tag.
    Again Eclipse should do all the studies to release this as cheap as possible.

  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    would invest in inventing a new machine
    It is certainly possible to study market - and extruding rubber tube is not exactly the newest thing in the world. Condom making comes to mind.

    I will certainly pay extra for a quality product with the declared characteristics - but I would not pay an extra cent for the "Handmade in Switzerland" stamp on it. Rubber tubes should be made by political prisoners in Asia, that's just makes sense.

  144. #144
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    I agree with both of you. I hope as well that Eclipse does their homework on this one. I would probably pay more for this special tube than for a normal tube simply based on the reviews that I have read in this forum but it has to be within reach hopefully for more than just professional racers with sponsors. I think that we all agree that the more reasonable they are (to a point), the more the company will make, even if they are "handmade in Switzerland."
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  145. #145
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    Handmade should not warrant a hugh increase in price but I will pay a premium price for a quality handmade product. For example: Schwalbe and Conti tires that carry a handmade in XXXX logo only cost slightly more than the comparable machine produced units. If Eclipse plans to continue making these tubes they will release them at a market value similar to the difference in tire pricing. Its basic economics. Everyone knows that handmade quality items always cost more but Eclipse also knows that if they plan to sell these tubes they will have to come in at a reasonable cost compared to the rest of the industry.

    I patiently await the release of these tubes. I may not sell a hugh amount of them to customers but I will use them.
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  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    These things weigh less less than most rim strips or cut-up tubes needed to convert to tubeless. Then you add the weight of sealant on top of that
    Who needs rimstrips ?? Get some Stans Rims, or Some UST rims, and get out stone ages of ghetto tubeless.
    beaver hunt

  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowdrifter
    Who needs rimstrips ?? Get some Stans Rims, or Some UST rims, and get out stone ages of ghetto tubeless.
    Can we stay within the same topic please? Stans and UST aren't relevant because we are talking about products to use with your existing non-tubeless rims. These tubes are being advertised as a cheap and easy way to lose weight and gain reliability versus either a regular tube or a tubeless conversion with rim strip and sealant. Rim strips came up because they are necessary on normal rims. Assuming that these tubes actually work like claimed, I would rather buy some of these than two new wheel builds along with $80 rims.

    Second, I thought we were arguing about which one is lighter? In that case you shouldn't bring UST into this, haha. The difference in weight for a UST tire is more than any rim strip or sealant (and I wouldn't run UST without sealant personally)

  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbnozpikr
    I would probably pay more for this special tube than for a normal tube simply based on the reviews that I have read in this forum
    Just remember that the review in this forum was made by the the manufacturer's best friend
    flyMTBfish

  149. #149
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    Omg...

    2.5 months passed, coming

  150. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atmos
    2.5 months passed, coming
    VAPORWARE?

  151. #151
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    lol ninoware

  152. #152
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    I don't see how these tubes would have to be made by hand compared to a normal tube. I mean, they LOOK the same as a normal tube (large tube, melted at a junction with a valve melted to it). Admittedly garbage bags, shopping bags and the like are not watertight, but they're also orders of magitude thinner than these tubes will ever be. When was the last time you saw a garbage bag with a visible hole in it? My current garbage bags are so thin they're transparent ... they hold like 25lbs of garbage and weigh like 6 grams.

    All I am saying is that IF they wanted to mass produce these for a reasonable price, they could. However, they would likely rather melt their fancy valve on there for a tube made in Asia and charge exorbitant prices; I have more faith in machine made asian copies to be completely honest. Whoever said condoms result in more than a few babies in a year due to random holes ... probably ... however a large portion of those are not "name brand"; I happen to know that Trojan has VERY stringent quality control (it's on their website, they take their reputation very seriously). Oh, and trust me, more than "a few" of these light tubes will explode on first inflation.

    At $25/tube, assuming they work, I would try them at least. However, I don't generally go for the $1/gram on a disposable item (unless, of course, the tubes end up not being disposable really).

    Good they are trying to make a better version of the asian one though, lets just see if they can actually do it.

  153. #153
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    Nino, you have effectively teased us all about these tubes for THREE MONTHS now. Are you blowing smoke at us? This better be gut!
    "This is a male-dominated forum... there will be lots of Testosterone sword-shaming here" ~ Kenfucius

  154. #154
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    hahaha...

    No vaporware!
    I just enjoyed a 1 week vacation in Italy (Tuscany) where the 56g inner tubes did pretty well.
    It just needs time and they also have to pass some DIN-tests before they are beeing released.

    And no - they can't be "melted" together just like your regular tube.That's why they need to be made by hand piece per piece. Also the valve can't be melted into them.

    Anyway - soner or later they will be released. It seems i was just too fast in passing out some info

  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    No vaporware!
    I just enjoyed a 1 week vacation in Italy (Tuscany)


    oh really ???

    sorry for the OT ...

  156. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    I just enjoyed a 1 week vacation in Italy (Tuscany) where the 56g inner tubes did pretty well.
    What is this "pretty well" !?!? I thought these things were supposed to be made from magic fairy dust: shouldn't they have done unimaginably amazingly well?

  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    No vaporware!
    I just enjoyed a 1 week vacation in Italy (Tuscany) where the 56g inner tubes did pretty well.
    It just needs time and they also have to pass some DIN-tests before they are beeing released.

    And no - they can't be "melted" together just like your regular tube.That's why they need to be made by hand piece per piece. Also the valve can't be melted into them.

    Anyway - soner or later they will be released. It seems i was just too fast in passing out some info
    I am trying to keep from drooling on my keyboard when this thread comes up. Imagine, potentially no more latex goop to have to deal with! Low pressure goodness and enhanced flat protection with no mess? I'm sold, your people just have to deliver!

  158. #158
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    "pretty well..."

    Quote Originally Posted by jp3d
    What is this "pretty well" !?!? I thought these things were supposed to be made from magic fairy dust: shouldn't they have done unimaginably amazingly well?
    Pretty well in this case means riding a superthin tire with a hyperlight inner tube on trails filled with sharp rocks and spines.

    As every year i just spent 1 week of mountainbiking in Italy (Massa Marittima/Tuscany). It's basically the second home of Frischi (Thomas Frischknecht) and many other top shots go there every spring to get in shape for the upcoming season.The trails are technical and the terrain is definitely a hard test for your equipment, especially tires and logically also the inner tubes."Eliflap" just bought a house down there so he might tell you guys about the terrain/trails as well. It is really singletrail heaven!! On the same trails there was the "Maremma-cup" just a couple of weeks ago:
    http://lnx.maremmacup.com/

    Here's a video i just found on Youtube:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cstku...layer_embedded

    We had almost the same bad weather during the past week...

    And some more singeltrail impressions from down there:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24LHm...eature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLp8V...eature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EgkCrPkLRk (That's me riding behind.That was in 2006)

    Those living in Europe should consider this destination for a next biking vacation...its really superb for crosscountry riding!!

    I decided to do the ultimate test using my Conti Race King 2,2" Supersonic tires although we all know that they are pretty bad protected, both against rocks and spines as well. I paired these tires to the 56g Eclipse-Tubes and didn't use any sealant. I just wanted to test them and in case of a flat wanted to know what caused it and if it could be fixed using sealant etc...

    So i started the first day definitely with mixed feelings as down there you usually get several flats in a group ride every day. i was sure to have the wrong "shoes" on my bike! I was using tubelesskits for the last 8 years successfully and only once had a flat when my Schwalbe tires got a long cut from the sharp rocks. Anyway - the ride started and after just 30 minutes we had the first flat: UST gone flat because of a spine. That guy had some sealant in the tires so a couple of spins and some shaking and re-inflating took care of that. A couple minutes later the hole was sealed and we continued. We then had a major crash of our guide who hit a rock with his pedals and endoed hard. He had to take care of his knee and we stopped by a restaurant which we were lucky to find just ahead of us. we spent about 20 minutes there cleaning his blooding knee and when we re-started i discovered a soft front tire. I had a slow airleak...i already started to pull out the inner tube and wanted to put in a spare tube but then decided i give it a try using some sealant first. so i put the Eclipse-Tube back in, filled in about 30g of sealant and re-inflated the tire again. It sealed almost immediately so we continued the ride. No airloss at all. I rode on for the next 2 days and never had any airloss. Since the weather was pretty bad all the time the trails became muddier and slipprier from day to day. so on the 4th day i decided to put a brandnew tire on the front. The tires i had mounted were still the very first RaceKings from last fall...the rear was basically 50% worn so i put the front on the rear and a new one in the front for better control. when i took out the front tube i finally discovered the reason for my slow airleak: a pretty big spine was still stuck in the tire and also sticking into the tube!! As you can see by the pics below the sealant took care of the hole. I have to say i was pretty much impressed by that. I then mounted a new tire, put a Park-Tool patch on the hole to fix it and rode the remaining days without a single problem.

    Back home i inspected the inner tubes once again and there is no additional hole neither front or back.We had up to 3 flats each day...i only had that slow airleak which got sealed by the sealant. so if i would have used sealant from the beginning i might have come away without even having to re-inflate. It seems the tubes , even if penetrated, loose air much slower than regular butyl or latex tubes.


    I came away both impressed by tires (the RKs once again proved to be superb tires, especially in the wet over the rocks it seems i was the only one enjoying it when all others complained bitterly about any lack of grip) and by these inner tubes. They have shown to withstand really intense use. They're not 100% flatfree but that has been expected the way i was using them down there.But seeing the amount of flats others got and to see mine held up fine even with a spine sticking in the tire makes me feel even more secure for the future. I am definitely sold and will use them from now on. As i already told the ride also feels pretty much the same as using a Tubelesskit. the tires are much more supple than compared to regular tubes. it's really just like using converted tires with sealant but you don't have to mess with sealant and compressors anymore.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by nino; 04-27-2009 at 01:30 PM.

  159. #159
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    I've seen things that look a lot like that discarded on the side-walk...

  160. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by p_shep
    I've seen things that look a lot like that discarded on the side-walk...
    You're thinking about used condoms. What neighborhood are you from?
    "This is a male-dominated forum... there will be lots of Testosterone sword-shaming here" ~ Kenfucius

  161. #161
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    Sorry my bad english, but i need to make this question:
    If a sharp rock cuts the tire sidewall, will this tube survive? or will it be cutted easily?
    This is the main diference that would make me leave tubeless.
    Thanks.

  162. #162
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    well...

    Quote Originally Posted by shaggy.gpd
    Sorry my bad english, but i need to make this question:
    If a sharp rock cuts the tire sidewall, will this tube survive? or will it be cutted easily?
    This is the main diference that would make me leave tubeless.
    Thanks.
    well - in case of a cut in the tire chances that you can ride on with a inner tube are much better than without...

  163. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    well - in case of a cut in the tire chances that you can ride on with a inner tube are much better than without...
    Of course

  164. #164
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    If you do not want to use sealant how this type of tube would be patched?

  165. #165
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    Eclipse-patches

    Quote Originally Posted by sergio_pt
    If you do not want to use sealant how this type of tube would be patched?
    Easy - just use some adhesive patches also available from Eclipse !

    These are similar style as Park-Tool patches. These are specially formulated to fit on the Eclipse tubes but will work on any regular tube as well. Regular patches don't work! You can't vulcanize this material!

    As you can see things are progressing...at least the patches are already available
    Attached Images Attached Images

  166. #166
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    OK, in the meantime while I wait for this product to be readily available, what is a lightweight but durable tube that will work with Race King SS 2.2 tires?

  167. #167
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    I've had good luck with Panaracer Greenlite tubes and terrible luck with Continental Supersonics. Your results may vary.

  168. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    Easy - just use some adhesive patches also available from Eclipse !

    These are similar style as Park-Tool patches. These are specially formulated to fit on the Eclipse tubes but will work on any regular tube as well. Regular patches don't work! You can't vulcanize this material!

    As you can see things are progressing...at least the patches are already available

    cool, now bring the things cheap!

  169. #169
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    So attractive! Not...

  170. #170
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    So attractive! Not...

  171. #171
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    Eclipse innertube is a non-starter for me, unless they make a patch kit for it. Glueless patches are temporary. I'm not interested in sealant either. Holding a cigarette lighter up to the tube? No thanks.

  172. #172
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    Unless they're stupid expensive, I imagine I'd just replace the tubes when I have a puncture. That's what I do with my current tubes. That said, it sounds like the eclipse will be far more durable than standard tubes based on what Nino has been saying.

  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Bluth
    Unless they're stupid expensive
    I'm guessing this product may challenge the definition of stupid expensive, at least compared to regular tubes. However if they are reasonably durable, then even much more expensive than regular tubes may in fact be a reasonable amount for the functionality.

  174. #174
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    One aspect that you guys are missing is ride quality. The reason we use rubber compounds for tubes is also because of their ability to deform and expand under pressure and impacts. This tube that nino is testing looks like it might "feel" a little rigid once pumped up and on the trails. Maybe Nino can chip in about this. For the Race King which is a soft compound it might not be a problem.

  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    I'm guessing this product may challenge the definition of stupid expensive, at least compared to regular tubes. However if they are reasonably durable, then even much more expensive than regular tubes may in fact be a reasonable amount for the functionality.
    Compared to $120CDN for a Stan's kit?
    I'm a member of NSMBA and IMBA Canada

  176. #176
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    "Glueless patches are temporary."

    Really? I've never had one fail yet but I've had many vulcanized patches crack & rot. Park glueless patches work great for me!

  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockyuphill
    Compared to $120CDN for a Stan's kit?
    Who's using a full Stan's kit? The magical yellow tape is where it's at. Then a jug of Stan's sealant or equivalent will do quite a few tires. If a small batch of Eclipse tubes is cheaper than a jug of sealant then you may be on to something, unless people are going to be satisfied putting Eclipse patches all over them when required (time will tell).

  178. #178
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    Well, this is progress. How much for the patch kit?
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  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Who's using a full Stan's kit?.
    They sure offer it for sale... I would guess there are buyers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    The magical yellow tape is where it's at.
    Tape at $12 a roll as an example of a sensible price?

    (Disclosure - I have bought both.. Shame does not keep me awake at night.)

  180. #180
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    Feel...

    Quote Originally Posted by saga
    One aspect that you guys are missing is ride quality. The reason we use rubber compounds for tubes is also because of their ability to deform and expand under pressure and impacts. This tube that nino is testing looks like it might "feel" a little rigid once pumped up and on the trails. Maybe Nino can chip in about this. For the Race King which is a soft compound it might not be a problem.
    As mentioned at the very beginning these tubes are so thin they really mimick the feel of a tire run "tubeless". There is a big difference compared to regular inner tubes. They make the ride much more supple, and it also seems they roll much faster just like converted tires do. This should be verified soon when the DIN-testing is all done.

    I never had any problems using glueless patches as well. So far Park-Tool patches have served me well. Best is that you can just put them on the hole and ride on where with regular patches you need some time, clean..wait for the vulcanization...etc. That's what you can do back home in your garage but not if you are on a nice ride. I never have some regular patches with me on my rides but i always had Park-Tools just in case. Eclipse just wants to offer the best possible patches so people can do repair just in case. The sealant is protecting against smaller penetrations but if the hole is too big sealant might not be able to close it. And the response showed that most guys won't use sealant anyway so you need to offer patches that actually work. After all - this is not a inner tube you throw away after a flat! They're not 5$ a piece. The advantages of low weight, low rollingresistance and better flat resistance are well worth the investment.

    Pricing is still unknown but seeing the amount people spend in tires and tubelesskits rest assured it is in reasonable limits. Just don't compare it with your 5$ butyl tube. It will offer a 40-100g weight reduction PER wheel at better performance in rollingresistance and puncture protection as well. It allows the use of ANY tire (unlike tubeless conversions where some tires aren't really suggested), no more mess with sealants and compressors, fast tire changes right before races, tires stay firm on EVERY rim also at lowest pressures without burping.....i think that's some pretty good advantages to start with and well worth a couple of bucks.

    And here's some more weights for the other sizes that will be available:
    BMX 20"x1,5-2,125:
    BMX 24"x1,5-2,25: 49g
    XC 26"x1,5-2,25: 56g
    AM 26"x2,25-2,6: 59g
    Road 28"x18-25C: 29g
    Trekking 28"x28-42C: 58g
    29er 29"x1,5-2,25: 58g

    I'd say these are pretty impressive weights
    Last edited by nino; 04-30-2009 at 02:42 AM.

  181. #181
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    Hey Nino,

    You mentioned earlier that the patches are available. I can't seem to find them anywhere to find a price but am hoping that you know: about how much is a patch kit going to run?
    2012 Intense M9
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  182. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbnozpikr
    Hey Nino,

    You mentioned earlier that the patches are available. I can't seem to find them anywhere to find a price but am hoping that you know: about how much is a patch kit going to run?
    sorry - I have no idea when exactly nor what they will cost. But they are already made in masses to be ready when the tubes get sold.

  183. #183
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    at least the patches are already available
    Sorry Nino. I'm not trying to plaster you with questions you don't know or can't answer.
    2012 Intense M9
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  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    And here's some more weights for the other sizes that will be available:
    BMX 20"x1,5-2,125:
    BMX 24"x1,5-2,25: 49g
    XC 26"x1,5-2,25: 56g
    AM 26"x2,25-2,6: 59g
    Road 28"x18-25C: 29g
    Trekking 28"x28-42C: 58g
    29er 29"x1,5-2,25: 58g

    I'd say these are pretty impressive weights
    No kidding I love how the AM is a whopping 3g more than XC

  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    They sure offer it for sale... I would guess there are buyers.
    We're on the Weight Weenie board here, which (in some ways) is a more enlightened - pardon the pun - audience. I really don't give a rat's ass about the viability of the full Stan's kit with rubber strips, or who is buying them. Not even on the radar screen here as far as I'm concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    Tape at $12 a roll as an example of a sensible price?
    Probably a buck worth of tape, but the value proposition for me of a roll of tape and jug of sealant is pretty attractive for me, so I have no problem with paying it.

  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Probably a buck worth of tape, but the value proposition for me of a roll of tape and jug of sealant is pretty attractive for me, so I have no problem with paying it.
    Neither do I; I just was not sure it is a best example of frugality. But you are right, this is a WW forum - for people with more money then common sense.

  187. #187
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    damn cant w8 to get them in my scalpel BBQ but i think i need wait a very long time to see them in shop

  188. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    Neither do I; I just was not sure it is a best example of frugality. But you are right, this is a WW forum - for people with more money then common sense.
    I can only answer the question for myself, but there would be a price point for the Eclipse tubes beyond which I would just stick with sealant and yellow tape. $20 per tube, no problem since even Michelin latex tubes aren't far off this. $30 probably still a go, $40 starting to think pretty hard about it, $50+ maybe a total non-starter me, as the cost of tubes across multiple bikes, plus spares would cost hundreds of dollars. Even then I'd be faced with potentially running patched/repaired tubes anytime they are damaged. For the relatively low number of times I switch from my fave tires, I'd just stick with my current tape & sealant setup, with which I can equip a large number of bikes for about $30.

    So, if anyone at Eclipse is listening, $20 sounds like a winner to me as a price for a premium product (compared to standard tubes) that may offer more convenience. Above $20, value propostion starts to decline rapidly for me, although others who don't have nicely functioning sealant setups already may find better value even at a higher price point.

  189. #189
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    Yep, I agree that $20 would be a reasonable price.

  190. #190
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    there is people that would pay 100$ like Robin v Berkel and other really really rich weeeenies.

  191. #191
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    They can make a version with gold plated valve for Robin v Berkel.

  192. #192
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    Are the valve stems going to be colored?

  193. #193
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    Valve stems

    Quote Originally Posted by jtack
    Are the valve stems going to be colored?
    Valve stems are red just like the one below

    No- not available in pink,gold or green

    just red.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    So, if anyone at Eclipse is listening, $20 sounds like a winner to me
    + 1

    And hopefully we see black valve stem versions. That red annoys me, and would look ugly on many builds.
    ***

  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle2834
    + 1

    And hopefully we see black valve stem versions. That red annoys me, and would look ugly on many builds.
    Sharpy it!

  196. #196
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    [QUOTE=Kyle2834... and would look ugly on many builds.[/QUOTE]

    man - i had this colour debate already on the german forum. You guys complain about a tiny bit of red but ride along with mud-green stanchions on suspension forks??? No-one complains about that. Rainbow colours on every Ritchey WCS part...or colour xy on your bikes tires....Sorry - the colour is red as it has to be noticed. Michelin has green, most others are silver or golden...which leaves blue or red as the only "trademark" colour. Live with it or put some black duct tape on it if you can't stand the red. I for my part will proudly show it's a 56g Eclipse tube inside.

    Sometimes i think people do look to make their life a problem

  197. #197
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    Red is OK for me. I prefer threaded valve stems though. The little nut keeps the stem from going into the tire when you attach the pump to inflate it.

  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfer1
    Red is OK for me. I prefer threaded valve stems though. The little nut keeps the stem from going into the tire when you attach the pump to inflate it.
    no nut!
    a fixed valve will make for ripped-off valves in case the tire moves on the rim. you shouldn't use a nut there!

  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    You guys complain about a tiny bit of red but ride along with mud-green stanchions on suspension forks??? No-one complains about that. Rainbow colours on every Ritchey WCS part...or colour xy on your bikes tires....Sorry - the colour is red as it has to be noticed.
    Stanchions are that color for a functional reason, not advertisement purposes.

    A red valve stem stands out like a dildo in a fourth grade science fair, and for no reason other than to advertise. You can't really justify that by saying it NEEDS to compete with the 'loudness' of other parts.

    No it's not a big deal at all, I can obviously just sharpie it like I did the rest of my bike.
    ***

  200. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    no nut!
    a fixed valve will make for ripped-off valves in case the tire moves on the rim. you shouldn't use a nut there!
    I've never had that problem with threaded valve stems. I did happen to me a few times using Torelli X-Lite tubes, which have unthreaded valve stems.

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