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  1. #1
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    T-West: thoughts

    Just wondering what perceptions are as to why everyone is still staying away. Trails are in primo shape and almost always empty though the usuals evidence of some traffic. Logging has not hit that side at all and planned logging will only take out one trail in 2013. (Beaver Pond)
    Horse traffic is way up on the lower trails. (Bra/Bobsled/Monster) Prehaps because it's Tokul Timber property and there is no fee to ride there? Many equestrians also state it's because the trails at T-East are gone now. I doubt they are all paying up.

    Are mountain bikers just too honest and still have issues with the permit fees? There have been no indications of anyone ever seeing anyone checking in that area since the signs went up. I can't imagine anyone paying a season permit with 5 months to go now and I have heard a few people paid up for the day pass. Has everyone just written it off?

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    If there was a daily fee I'd be more likely to go. I like the Tokul trails a lot and was just starting to know my way around out there when the fee started. But with work and other rides, I doubt I'll get out there for more than 3-4 rides a year, and that's just not worth $75 for me right now. I'd rather spend that on two days at Stevens Pass.
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  3. #3
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    Hmmm. There IS a daily fee option. Has been for some time. (Note the "day pass" comment in the OP. )

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    I organize group rides twice a week every week and we totally stopped going to Tokul after Jan. 1st. My group has about 30 riders and I don't think a single member has a pass or plans to buy a pass. A lot of us already spend $30+ for a Discover pass and another $30 for a NW Forest pass which are good for a full year from date of purchase. $75 for a Hancock pass seems ridiculous, and it is only good for the calendar year. Like you said $75 for 5 months is not a good deal even if the trails are in primo shape.

    We have thought about just going anyway, but we dont want to deal with the hassle of getting caught without a pass and potentially losing out/ruining a day of riding so we go elsewhere. I know you can buy a day pass, but even then the cost seems steep and it is a hassle to get everyone to do so.

    As far as T-West is concerned, we have rode there a few times, followed a mapped out route of the "good stuff" and found it to be "ok". There are some great singletrack in the area, but a little too much logging road and not enough technical stuff or memorable trails. I would love to give it a few more rides to really get an opinion of the area, but that probably wont happen now.

    T-East is a favorite of ours, but the fact Flowtron area got logged really turned us off on riding there too. Flowtron is/was just flat out fun to ride and is the type of trail that drawns riders out there. It is a great way to start a ride and it gets everyone warmed up excited to explore the area after that.

    In 2011 we visited the Tokul area 15+ times, in 2012 it has been zero.

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    I have always wanted to do T-West, just haven't done it and don't ride with anyone who rides T-West for some strange reason. My absolute favorite has been T-East and I really miss that place this summer. Fees have probably kept me away, but if no one is checking, I might have to check it out.

    Bob, could you give me an idea for a good 12-15 mile ride with as much "flow" as possible at T-West? I will make it a point to get there soon.

  6. #6
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    Tokul East being right next door to my house I probably easily got 20+ days there a season, but of those I visited West about 4 times. There may be good trails in there, but I have never found a loop that matched the ones available at East. Saying that, I have absolutely no issue with paying the $75 bucks to ride either place. It literally costs me more in gas driving to other places to ride than the pass costs. Although this season it has been a little ambiguous as to what Evergreen and Hancock have been working on and my plan was to wait and see what came of their talks. In the end this lead me to ride other places and now it is really too late IMO to pay the fee for a few good months...

    As an aside, just because there isn't active enforcement doesn't mean you can completely disregard the pass.

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    Lynch, I'd never tell you to just go there anyways. Though I'd be happy to take you on a tour that cuts out nearly all the logging road. (Seems funny that no one complains(ed) about all the logging road in East though...)
    Odds of getting "caught" are slim and none IMHO.
    Just "OK"? Really? (That is a common report though from many first timers.)

    Seems to me that it's just another issue with so many options around here.

    PM me if you want. Same with dawgman...

    One of the issues there is that it is 2-3X the size of T-east and more spread out.

    Adding GS across the back makes a big difference too. (That has been seeing steady use BTW.)

    Hoping Glenn has good news the end of the year for changes in 2013 and beyond.

  8. #8
    JRA
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    Stayed away because of the permit. Not likely to ever purchase it nor a day pass. Not that it matters but I'd choose West over East any day.

  9. #9
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    T-West is big, and not really knowing where to go slows things down and takes a little fun out of it. I'd love to ride it with someone who knows where to go. I'm sure it would be much better if you go to the right places!

    Besides the fees you have the Duthie factor. Duthie is compact fun, and I notice people get almost lazy if they go there a lot. They seem to expect all trails to have "features" and jumps every few feet and get bored without them.

    When we hit the 410 area last weekend we took a couple guys who have only rode at Duthie and the Tapeworm area and they were amazed. The best quote was "wow, so this is what REAL mountain biking is like!" .

  10. #10
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    I've been out there quite a few time this year. It's riding distance from home, and better trail than Tiger or Duthie, even if, or maybe because there's 'no flow'. Great views at East now with the clearcut, and not nearly as much traffic. it's a win win.

    I think the trespassing issues are going to come up with they weyco lands and their ambiguous signage though, not Hancock. Sooner or later, there will be either enforcement or abandonment of the Hancock permit system. I'd bet more on the former.

  11. #11
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    Nettles, berry bushes, and mud keep me off the west side.

    We did a full tour a week ago. Other than bobsled the place is rather "dry" fun wise.
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  12. #12
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    Tokul E & W is my winter riding area. Mud and all. Big mountain riding in the summer.

    Would love a tour out there one day Bob. Been a long time
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  13. #13
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    Allow me to break it down....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails T-West: thoughts-tokul.jpg  


  14. #14
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    Dynamite thread alert! But it's a good question. I think most of the answers already stated are going to be representative of the general consensus...
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  15. #15
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    As a matter of fact I was thinking about Tokul West and horses during my ride yesterday afternoon. It feels like the horse people might be "taking over." I see way fewer bikes out there whereas it seems like there are more horses (or maybe the bike:horse ratio has just changed). Anyhow some of the lower trails seem to be taking more horse damage than before. I wonder if the horse folks just feel more at home there or what? But yah, I wonder how many of them are permitted up.

    BTW, I've never been checked by authorities while riding there. Despite having a permit I don't go there quite as often as I used to so maybe the odds just haven't been in favor of running into the enforcement folks. I guess one good thing about the permit system is that there's more solitude out there these days.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post

    Are mountain bikers just too honest and still have issues with the permit fees? There have been no indications of anyone ever seeing anyone checking in that area since the signs went up. I can't imagine anyone paying a season permit with 5 months to go now and I have heard a few people paid up for the day pass. Has everyone just written it off?
    A couple points. I think the whole permit system really alienated a lot of mountain bikers. I'm one of them but the Tokul area is a go to place for me so I painfully bought a permit. Also if the pass was for a "rolling" twelve months rather than a set date-date model then it might entice more people to buy. At the end of the day I think many people simply haven't adjusted to the permit system so they just go to one of the other areas. Although that being said has Paradise usage increased? I haven't really noticed an increase in riders but I don't go there enough to really know.

    And the logging isn't helping matters at all. Pay $75.00 only to have the trails logged out isn't exactly going to make people want to pay the fee.

  17. #17
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    Nice F.M. Technically, Tiger isn't free, since you need a pass to park, but your point is still well taken.

    I used to ride Tokul E. 2-3 per month. Now it's 0, zilch, nada. None of my riding buddies are willing to risk poaching the trails, and nobody is willing to bend over and take Hancock's extortion in their saddle pad. So we typically stick to Tiger or Duthie when we ride in that area.

    I miss the trails though. It was a good workout and some decent flow. If it is true that Flowtron got logged, then I don't miss it at all. Way to kill off one of three trails that made the trip worth while. Just makes $75 look all the more ridiculous.

  18. #18
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    Tiger = Open from April to October....technically / legally.
    Tokul = good winter riding option.

    I'm surprised how many people don't ride Tokul because of the fee and/or fear of The Man. I guess I'm the only person who actively practices civil disobedience these days!

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    Used to love riding East but now that's all gone so haven't gone at all this year. Always interested in doing West but don't know the area at all and don't have a pass.

    What's the penalty for getting caught without a pass?

  20. #20
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    Tokul is a great place in the winter. It seems to be one of the better draining areas around.
    Now that Flowtron has been logged, with the right snowstorm we could get in a "Snowtron" run!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Lynch View Post
    Tokul is a great place in the winter. It seems to be one of the better draining areas around.
    Now that Flowtron has been logged, with the right snowstorm we could get in a "Snowtron" run!
    Good point, Tokul is one of the better places for winter riding around here. By far that's where most of my winter riding happens.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post
    Hmmm. There IS a daily fee option. Has been for some time. (Note the "day pass" comment in the OP. )
    I heard evergreen was negotiating this, but didn't realize it was going already. $8 a day isn't too bad, hmmmm....
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  23. #23
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    And the logging isn't helping matters at all. Pay $75.00 only to have the trails logged out isn't exactly going to make people want to pay the fee.[/QUOTE]

    This is what a lot of people think which is not the case. Yeah, FT3K, Tetherball, and Last Frontier got logged. But, the rest of it is all still there. Yes, the lower stuff around the pond got logged too. But really, did anyone else besides me even ride any of it?
    NOTHING has been logged in West (yet). And, FT3K is getting rebuilt.

    Seems like a lot of people think the trail are all gone or something. Psycho Dimitri is still there for example. And, from the look of things, getting some traffic.

    Good discusson. I personally like West and enjoy the current state of the trails which was why I brought this up. Irealize there's not enough "gnar" for some. But, I don't care. The Pink Ribbon jump line should have enough for those folks and it hardly gets used.

    Hoping Glenn and Evergreen work some more out that may just change some tunes here. Still have not read the Dirt Rag article on it but if anyone has a copy....

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme View Post
    Tiger = Open from April to October....technically / legally.
    Tokul = good winter riding option.

    I'm surprised how many people don't ride Tokul because of the fee and/or fear of The Man. I guess I'm the only person who actively practices civil disobedience these days!

    EB
    We need some more of that down here EB. You and Wylie can move back if you want....

  25. #25
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    Good schtufff!

    Last time I checked, the lower lot at Tiger was still free. WSDOT land (vs DNR) so the Discover Pass signs were taken down.

    My E to W ride ratio last winter was 10:1. E is just more fun for a quick after-work winter ride. Also seems more "efficient" to me when time is key... steady climb up road then ride a trail back down... FT, LF, OGDH, CI... repeat as many times as necessary . At W it just seems like I'm spending more time going down or traversing on roads (a sin) or in mud.

    Don't get me wrong... My last W ride was fun. Off-camber turns, more braking into corners and accelerating out of corners... definitely a good change and a good skill builder once in a while.

    If I had a magic trail fairy wand I could wave over Tokul West, I would create more singletrack connectors (to reduce road travel) and make a few easier/gentler climbs. But where some are needed is through pretty flat terrain so without the magic wand it would be a helluva lot of work to build it sustainably.
    Last edited by mwestra2; 08-02-2012 at 10:50 AM.

  26. #26
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    Great Thread Borneo. Bought my pass in Jan, rode once, then logging, and didn't ride again until July. Rode 4 times in July, 3 at West. Never saw a soul.

    Used to ride TW a ton but then Ivan came along and TE became a great 1.5-2hr spin. Big payoff on the climbs. UP, Safety/Gun Club, UP, Flowtron (was especially sweet with 2010 additions), UP, Ivan. High-five! Alternatively we would ride the "Tour de Tokul" and go up TW, cross GS, and do decents on TE. 2.5+hrs.

    IMO, Why TW Lacks and Suggestions For Making it Sweet:


    - Randomness: TW often feels random...lots of trail with random entry and exit points that don't have much to do with each other and don't flow into each other. Do I turn right/left on this road? What's the best way up/down? After riding there for many years, I've got it. Most new people will be lost without a guide-buddy though, and have a bad experience.

    - People Like Loops. To do the "mostly Singletrack" ride you mentioned you would have to pick a side; either Pink Ribbon or Full Bench to climb. Otherwise it's 15 min of road both directions to get across. The obvious pick would be Full Bench as there is so much trail on that side. Then it's basically an out and back with a bit of variety (Outhouse/Steakhouse, Loops up top, Bobsled or FB down). If you add Golden Spike or Bobsled there's 10-20 more road minutes on top of the ride from Outback to Full Bench (all road).

    - Payoff for all that road: I generally ride both sides. Up the trails near Pink Ribbon (Beaver Pond), across on road, loop the Out/Steak/Bon/etc., down Outback, road cross to FB, maybe up road to Bobsled and exit. The last couple I've skipped FB and road crossed back to descend the Beaver Pond trails which is a great rip. The problem is the descents are soooo short in comparison to the trail/road climbs and road crosses. TE has multiple big payoffs. TW has "meh" descents that last 1-2 minutes and kind of feels like "all-climb".

    - Connectivity: Back to people like loops. To me TW becomes amazing and unique if connectors are built from FB to OB Extension, and Beaver Pond to Bon Bon. Then you've got a 10-15 mile bi-direcetional loop with internal options and GS option to TE. The "DH's" in either direction would be 15-20 minutes or more. Not the vertical or steep grades of TE but the long low-grade dh could be XC nirvana. I always want Outback to go on forever.

    - More Connectivity: Connect bottom of Outhouse to the top of Bobsled and make it primarily DH. With the above connectors, there would be three ways down from the Bon Bon area; all long unique descents with big payoffs. Suddenly TW is better than TE (or Tiger) as you can climb road and have big decent options, do a big XC trail loop, or a hybrid. Reclimbing the road to re-descend becomes an option.

    - New access at Pink Ribbon: Entry trail to Pink Ribbon Trails from SVT is a DH chute. 2 switchbacks would do the trick. (I know, go build it yourself Navigator!)

    - Lower Trails Love: Monster, Sticker, Bra, Sargent, Major all need to be reworked. Often very muddy. Feel disconnected and straight. This is an area where rollers, berms, jumps and ladders could generate a lot of excitement. Maybe just some s-turns. Really just connecting Black Bear (good trail) to Major Tom to Bra as a long flowy ridge loop would be enough. Then make the exit of FB hit directly at the start of Black Bear instead of randomly at the road.

    I hope Evergreen is listening and can make a deal to accomplish any of the above.

  27. #27
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    And I know what's I ask for is years of work and always in danger of logging or closure. Just dreaming...

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post
    And the logging isn't helping matters at all. Pay $75.00 only to have the trails logged out isn't exactly going to make people want to pay the fee.
    This is what a lot of people think which is not the case. Yeah, FT3K, Tetherball, and Last Frontier got logged. But, the rest of it is all still there. Yes, the lower stuff around the pond got logged too. But really, did anyone else besides me even ride any of it?
    NOTHING has been logged in West (yet). And, FT3K is getting rebuilt.

    Seems like a lot of people think the trail are all gone or something. Psycho Dimitri is still there for example. And, from the look of things, getting some traffic.

    Good discusson. I personally like West and enjoy the current state of the trails which was why I brought this up. Irealize there's not enough "gnar" for some. But, I don't care. The Pink Ribbon jump line should have enough for those folks and it hardly gets used.

    Hoping Glenn and Evergreen work some more out that may just change some tunes here. Still have not read the Dirt Rag article on it but if anyone has a copy....
    You stated it better than I, it's the perception that damage is done. It seems like there's a general sense that the trails are being obliterated but that's not true at all for sure.

    I think the other factor for some, including me to some extent, is the loss of forest cover. I personally miss some of the forested trail, such as FB and FT3K. Not that it necessarily changes the trail itself, just the aesthetic. What can I say, I like riding my bike in the woods. I'm not saying this is a primary reason for fewer riders, just a factor.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
    Great Thread Borneo. Bought my pass in Jan, rode once, then logging, and didn't ride again until July. Rode 4 times in July, 3 at West. Never saw a soul.

    Used to ride TW a ton but then Ivan came along and TE became a great 1.5-2hr spin. Big payoff on the climbs. UP, Safety/Gun Club, UP, Flowtron (was especially sweet with 2010 additions), UP, Ivan. High-five! Alternatively we would ride the "Tour de Tokul" and go up TW, cross GS, and do decents on TE. 2.5+hrs.

    IMO, Why TW Lacks and Suggestions For Making it Sweet:


    - Randomness: TW often feels random...lots of trail with random entry and exit points that don't have much to do with each other and don't flow into each other. Do I turn right/left on this road? What's the best way up/down? After riding there for many years, I've got it. Most new people will be lost without a guide-buddy though, and have a bad experience.

    - People Like Loops. To do the "mostly Singletrack" ride you mentioned you would have to pick a side; either Pink Ribbon or Full Bench to climb. Otherwise it's 15 min of road both directions to get across. The obvious pick would be Full Bench as there is so much trail on that side. Then it's basically an out and back with a bit of variety (Outhouse/Steakhouse, Loops up top, Bobsled or FB down). If you add Golden Spike or Bobsled there's 10-20 more road minutes on top of the ride from Outback to Full Bench (all road).

    - Payoff for all that road: I generally ride both sides. Up the trails near Pink Ribbon (Beaver Pond), across on road, loop the Out/Steak/Bon/etc., down Outback, road cross to FB, maybe up road to Bobsled and exit. The last couple I've skipped FB and road crossed back to descend the Beaver Pond trails which is a great rip. The problem is the descents are soooo short in comparison to the trail/road climbs and road crosses. TE has multiple big payoffs. TW has "meh" descents that last 1-2 minutes and kind of feels like "all-climb".

    - Connectivity: Back to people like loops. To me TW becomes amazing and unique if connectors are built from FB to OB Extension, and Beaver Pond to Bon Bon. Then you've got a 10-15 mile bi-direcetional loop with internal options and GS option to TE. The "DH's" in either direction would be 15-20 minutes or more. Not the vertical or steep grades of TE but the long low-grade dh could be XC nirvana. I always want Outback to go on forever.

    - More Connectivity: Connect bottom of Outhouse to the top of Bobsled and make it primarily DH. With the above connectors, there would be three ways down from the Bon Bon area; all long unique descents with big payoffs. Suddenly TW is better than TE (or Tiger) as you can climb road and have big decent options, do a big XC trail loop, or a hybrid. Reclimbing the road to re-descend becomes an option.

    - New access at Pink Ribbon: Entry trail to Pink Ribbon Trails from SVT is a DH chute. 2 switchbacks would do the trick. (I know, go build it yourself Navigator!)

    - Lower Trails Love: Monster, Sticker, Bra, Sargent, Major all need to be reworked. Often very muddy. Feel disconnected and straight. This is an area where rollers, berms, jumps and ladders could generate a lot of excitement. Maybe just some s-turns. Really just connecting Black Bear (good trail) to Major Tom to Bra as a long flowy ridge loop would be enough. Then make the exit of FB hit directly at the start of Black Bear instead of randomly at the road.

    I hope Evergreen is listening and can make a deal to accomplish any of the above.
    I really like these thoughts, especially about the FB and Outback connectivity. Linking some of this stuff up could really make T.West a cool (or cooler) place to ride. I think one of the drawbacks to T West is that the singletrack is over pretty quick, which is too bad because there's so much potential out there, especially with the existing trails providing a solid starting point.

  30. #30
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    I think we should all go build trail on Tiger Mountain this year. Sweet new trails are being built!!! Seriously, people are really going to like the "new" Tiger.

    More logging to happen this winter at Tokul E (Ivan) and parts of W (Beaver Pond). West is a muddy mess in the winter, so needs connector trails and reroutes to make it legit. Lets throw some horsepower at Tiger and go address Tokul after all the logging is complete.

    I love T-West (when it's dry) and want to see it improve, but there's higher priorities right now. If we don't get out and build at Tiger, this once in a generation opportunity will be gone. Let's git'r done.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwestra2 View Post
    Good schtufff!

    Last time I checked, the lower lot at Tiger was still free. WSDOT land (vs DNR) so the Discover Pass signs were taken down.
    There were signs just off the highway when I was there on July 10th. How recent is your information?

    It would be great news if it was true. I'd like to volunteer on the new trail without buying a pass to park.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    There were signs just off the highway when I was there on July 10th. How recent is your information?

    It would be great news if it was true. I'd like to volunteer on the new trail without buying a pass to park.
    Were those signs right at the gate? If those are the ones you're talking about then they are intended to designate the upper lot as DNR land. The lower lot by the highway is free parking, or at least that is what I've been lead to believe. If there are signs in the lower lot then that would be news to me but I haven't been up there in awhile.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
    Great Thread Borneo. Bought my pass in Jan, rode once, then logging, and didn't ride again until July. Rode 4 times in July, 3 at West. Never saw a soul.

    Used to ride TW a ton but then Ivan came along and TE became a great 1.5-2hr spin. Big payoff on the climbs. UP, Safety/Gun Club, UP, Flowtron (was especially sweet with 2010 additions), UP, Ivan. High-five! Alternatively we would ride the "Tour de Tokul" and go up TW, cross GS, and do decents on TE. 2.5+hrs.

    IMO, Why TW Lacks and Suggestions For Making it Sweet:


    - Randomness: TW often feels random...lots of trail with random entry and exit points that don't have much to do with each other and don't flow into each other. Do I turn right/left on this road? What's the best way up/down? After riding there for many years, I've got it. Most new people will be lost without a guide-buddy though, and have a bad experience.

    - People Like Loops. To do the "mostly Singletrack" ride you mentioned you would have to pick a side; either Pink Ribbon or Full Bench to climb. Otherwise it's 15 min of road both directions to get across. The obvious pick would be Full Bench as there is so much trail on that side. Then it's basically an out and back with a bit of variety (Outhouse/Steakhouse, Loops up top, Bobsled or FB down). If you add Golden Spike or Bobsled there's 10-20 more road minutes on top of the ride from Outback to Full Bench (all road).

    - Payoff for all that road: I generally ride both sides. Up the trails near Pink Ribbon (Beaver Pond), across on road, loop the Out/Steak/Bon/etc., down Outback, road cross to FB, maybe up road to Bobsled and exit. The last couple I've skipped FB and road crossed back to descend the Beaver Pond trails which is a great rip. The problem is the descents are soooo short in comparison to the trail/road climbs and road crosses. TE has multiple big payoffs. TW has "meh" descents that last 1-2 minutes and kind of feels like "all-climb".

    - Connectivity: Back to people like loops. To me TW becomes amazing and unique if connectors are built from FB to OB Extension, and Beaver Pond to Bon Bon. Then you've got a 10-15 mile bi-direcetional loop with internal options and GS option to TE. The "DH's" in either direction would be 15-20 minutes or more. Not the vertical or steep grades of TE but the long low-grade dh could be XC nirvana. I always want Outback to go on forever.

    - More Connectivity: Connect bottom of Outhouse to the top of Bobsled and make it primarily DH. With the above connectors, there would be three ways down from the Bon Bon area; all long unique descents with big payoffs. Suddenly TW is better than TE (or Tiger) as you can climb road and have big decent options, do a big XC trail loop, or a hybrid. Reclimbing the road to re-descend becomes an option.

    - New access at Pink Ribbon: Entry trail to Pink Ribbon Trails from SVT is a DH chute. 2 switchbacks would do the trick. (I know, go build it yourself Navigator!)

    - Lower Trails Love: Monster, Sticker, Bra, Sargent, Major all need to be reworked. Often very muddy. Feel disconnected and straight. This is an area where rollers, berms, jumps and ladders could generate a lot of excitement. Maybe just some s-turns. Really just connecting Black Bear (good trail) to Major Tom to Bra as a long flowy ridge loop would be enough. Then make the exit of FB hit directly at the start of Black Bear instead of randomly at the road.

    I hope Evergreen is listening and can make a deal to accomplish any of the above.
    Perhaps you should send Borneo a PM, too...
    Last edited by Agate; 08-02-2012 at 01:35 PM.

  34. #34
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    Tiger would be more tempting if it didn't have so much road, wasn't a muddy mess, and wasn't closed half the year....

    Seriously, the road to trail percentage is worse than West. Not that it isn't getting better however.

    Good points all around though.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by nwbikur View Post
    Were those signs right at the gate? If those are the ones you're talking about then they are intended to designate the upper lot as DNR land. The lower lot by the highway is free parking, or at least that is what I've been lead to believe. If there are signs in the lower lot then that would be news to me but I haven't been up there in awhile.
    I thought I saw a sign posted in the lower lot, just off the highway (not on the gate), and by the wooded divide that separates the lot from the gravel road, but now I'm second guessing myself!

    Guess I'll find out when I go to the working party.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post
    Seriously, the road to trail percentage is worse than West. Not that it isn't getting better however.
    I realize the road to trail ratio is not great, but it never really is (Galby, North Shore, Tokul, Tiger, etc). I think it's just the nature of Freeride/DH trails. XC is a different matter. Tiger just happens to have 3 miles of road, so it seems like a lot in one push, but you actually get to ride a LOT of trail for the effort. I usually do Iverson -> Preston -> NW Timber.

    I used to loop Flowtron and Last Frontier 3 or 4 times in a ride, and I felt like I spent way more time on the road than on the trail, but that's what happens when your pinning it down the trails! Guess I could just ride slower...

  37. #37
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    Way more than 3 if you do Iverson/PRT/and NW Timber. (Maybe 8.5?) Maybe it just feels like less?
    The good news is that with Silent Swamp reroute, it will be less by a couple miles.

  38. #38
    Justin Vander Pol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post
    Way more than 3 if you do Iverson/PRT/and NW Timber. (Maybe 8.5?) Maybe it just feels like less?
    The good news is that with Silent Swamp reroute, it will be less by a couple miles.
    Exactly. And that's why we need to get out to Tiger and build. It's going to get WAY better.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Navigator View Post

    - Lower Trails Love: Monster, Sticker, Bra, Sargent, Major all need to be reworked. Often very muddy. Feel disconnected and straight. This is an area where rollers, berms, jumps and ladders could generate a lot of excitement. Maybe just some s-turns. Really just connecting Black Bear (good trail) to Major Tom to Bra as a long flowy ridge loop would be enough. Then make the exit of FB hit directly at the start of Black Bear instead of randomly at the road.

    I hope Evergreen is listening and can make a deal to accomplish any of the above.
    One thing to keep in mind, the lower trails not only are muddy from relatively more horse use, but they're also a different landowner, and will likely be developed in the future. Not the best place to put an investment of time in.

    Other ideas:
    - singletrack connection in the recent logging from the top of FB to outback
    - singletrack DH from just north of OB (under the powerlines) down to Griffin Creek. the road under the powerlines would the exit back up.
    - In general, more connections are good. Increasing the area with trails would be best of all though, as then one clearcut affects a much smaller portion of the trail mileage.

  40. #40
    i'm schralping yer thread
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    No Discover Pass for lower Tiger Lot

    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    I thought I saw a sign posted in the lower lot, just off the highway (not on the gate), and by the wooded divide that separates the lot from the gravel road, but now I'm second guessing myself!

    Guess I'll find out when I go to the working party.
    Nope -- you're right. There are signs in the lower lot; however, they were placed there incorrectly. That lot belongs to DOT and does not require a Discover Pass. I don't believe that there have been any citations issued, and I've parked there myself without displaying a pass (though I have one) many, many times since they went up.

    But if it happens to anyone, they should definitely contest it.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post
    Way more than 3 if you do Iverson/PRT/and NW Timber. (Maybe 8.5?) Maybe it just feels like less?
    The good news is that with Silent Swamp reroute, it will be less by a couple miles.
    Solid point! I was only counting the main slog up the hill to get to Preston entrance. It's definitely more by the end of the day.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by juice View Post
    I think we should all go build trail on Tiger Mountain this year. If we don't get out and build at Tiger, this once in a generation opportunity will be gone. Let's git'r done.
    Oh'yeah! The Summit to Preston trail could be done in August. The machine work most definitely will be done... the hand-finishing work depends on the peeps! Then it's on to the Preston to NWTimber trail. With some solid support over the rainy season, we could get that puppy open by early summer.

  43. #43
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    Hey now. You're jacking my thread gimpy....

    LOTs o folks who ride Tigger used flip to the Tokuls in the winter when Tiger is closed. Including West which isn't really as muddy as some think compared to east. IMHO they are about the same for the mud factor. I don't ride Tiger hardly at all for a myriad of reasons but see it's community relivance.

    And, the comments so far pretty much solidify the impression that I thought was real when I started this.thread. Lots of misinformation and fingers to the man at Hancock.

  44. #44
    I5Troll
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    Exactly. This winter... ride the Tokuls but work at Tiger. Then worry about new trails/connectors at the Tokuls later. Just echoing Juice's encouragement to jump on Tiger while we have this once in a lifetime opportunity!

  45. #45
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    Obviously that's not what I meant. Keep pimping the trail from the top though. On those other Tiger threads.

    I may finally actually ride Hansen this weekend if that helps though.

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    Hi all

    What are the chances of encountering bears or cougars in Tokul this time of year? I read a year old thread that mentioned quite a few instances - thinking of hitting Tokul this week but will be riding alone so checking the local intelligence in this regard.

    <BTW I'm a first-posting-out-of-towner just moved here recently, and from northern Europe where there are none of these natural "hazards" so forgive me for any dumb questions>

  47. #47
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    I ride out there a lot on my own, and have seen 1 bear in years of riding there. I have no idea how many bears and cougars have seen me though... There have been a lot of bear sitings on Snoq Ridge. I don't worry about them myself. Every bear, cougar, and even bobcat I've ever seen has hightailed it away as soon as they realized a human was near. Human lowlifes in the woods are way more dangerous IMO.

    No doubt there's safety in numbers though.

  48. #48
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    I've seen a black bear on the power lines, and a cougar on another occasion on one of the switchbacks going up the power line road. The cougar took off fast, the bear...not so much.

  49. #49
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    Bears are out and feeding. Used to see a lot more out there though. Mostly over on the Tokul East side. I wouldn't even worry about it though..... They are everywhere you ride pretty much anyways.

  50. #50
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    In 15 years of heavy riding in the area I've had one bear sighting and zero cougar (although I thought I heard one growling once.) I'm sure they've been there and maybe even watching me but that's life in the big forest. The statistical odds of seeing either on a any single ride, let alone being attacked, let alone being killed, are way past lightning strike and somewhere in the Mega-jackpot lottery range. Granted it would be a hell of a way to go but no reason not to go ride. Bring bear spray and a bell if concerned.

    I would have a very different point of view in Grizzly country.

  51. #51
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    BTW, rode there twice last weekend and had a blast. Saw one other rider and she was on a horse. Trails are packed and fast with no brush. Plenty of shade on the hot days.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Lynch View Post
    In 2011 we visited the Tokul area 15+ times, in 2012 it has been zero.
    Sadly true for me as well, I must have been there 30+ times in 2011. The day use permit came late, and by that time I had forgotten about it. Its sad because Tokul EW were awesome year round, I rode there all winter long. When I rode there end of December and they were logging in full force it really discouraged me and my ride there on 12/30 turned out to be my last.

    I'll go back one day.

  53. #53
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    A group of us visited T-East last night. Flowtron is ridable top to bottom, but is super loose and we couldn't even get up a few of the switchbacks. It just needs some rain and some riders and it will be flowing fast again though. It now has two log drops vs. one on the old trail. Now that the area is clear the view of the valley is really good. I never realized how close to MT. Si. the area is.

    We also hit Crazy Ivan, lower Ivan and Mud creek (I think that's what it is called). It is pretty interesting riding those trails in the dark. The trails were pretty loose and dusty but still a lot of fun.

  54. #54
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    Probably worth just staying off FT3K until the fall when work can start in earnest again. Way too loose right now and with no rain in sight, not really worth it IMHO.

  55. #55
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    Agreed. Plus....i think the plan was actually to remove that layer of duff...so while it may look like its all good to go...actually, there is a ton of work remaining to put the FLOW back into flowtron.

    The crew is riding the summer and helping out on Tiger Mtn as much as possible - but spoke last nite of a return to TKE once the rains come.
    I support EMBA

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    Hopefully resume Tokul Jan 1 2013

    I was waiting to hear if Evergreen would have a deal for members, but do not think there is preferential status for us, or even if they would remove the permitting system. I also was of the impression that the trails would go to hell as trail builders would not want to pay money to build trails. I think I was wrong on the first count, haven't read every email but have not heard if Evergreen members get a sweet deal. Stoked to hear the trail builders are rebuilding and / or maintaining Tokul.

    On account of the trailbuilders awesome work, visionaries, I will be very excited to resume riding there in 2013, even though I'm frustrated with having to buy a permit every where I go. I gotta give them credit for keeping to the vision of long term trails in my neighborhood. The only thing holding me back would be the issue of night riding. Since I consider Tokul a winter riding or weekday location, it would suck to have the sun set while I'm still at work and not be able to ride in the dark of winter. Has there been progress on night riding issue?

  57. #57
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    I was curious about the condition of FT3K, and I definitely wouldn't recommend riding it until we get some rain. The layout though is nearly identical to the pre-logged route, so it is cool to see they were able to keep a very similar layout.

    I also want to mention the split cedar bridge on the way to the Crazy Ivan area is broken in the middle and is collapsed on one side.

  58. #58
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    The night riding issue was resolved some time back Ken and it's a go. Glenn is understanably being pretty coy about what he's letting out so no one get's too excited. But, I assume that in the next few months, a new plan for 2013 and on will be coming to light. Cautiously optimistic.....

    No plan for member discounts though it has been suggested many times. What's in it for Hancock? No point in EMBA subsidizing Tokul permits...

    This will be going higher up the food chain as we get closer to the end of the year when this season permit is up.

  59. #59
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    There were at least 5 other riders riding with lights last night besides the guys I was with.

  60. #60
    Justin Vander Pol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Lynch View Post
    Flowtron is ridable top to bottom, but is super loose and we couldn't even get up a few of the switchbacks. It just needs some rain and some riders and it will be flowing fast again though.
    Three of the switchbacks need to be pulled up the hill a few feet before the whole thing will be rideable w/out pedaling. The top part (Neutron) also needs the entrance and at least two corners tweaked. That's some of what wasn't finished this spring before we all went to do some actual riding and focus on Tiger. As Mutton said, the trail tread is kinda rake'n'ride at this point, so it needs a LOT of work to get it all down to good dirt (gold, mineral, etc).

    Crazy Ivan and KGB are getting logged out this winter, so East is going to take a lot of work to get it back to the winter wonderland that it was.

  61. #61
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    Went out there for a quick 2 hours yesterday afternoon and it's almost to the "too dry" stage of summer. No mud anywhere. Went down hard on the Middle on some loose ball bearingly stuff.
    Saw some bear poop...

    Only one couple on horseback on Bobsled on the way in but evidence of lots of bike use which is good...

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