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  1. #1
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    How to report mopeds & motorcycles at Duthie?

    Hey all, saw someone on a moped at Duthie today. Managed to get a picture- Evergreen was teaching a clinic so I asked them how to report it. Their advice was call 911. This didn't feel right - didn't feel like an emergency.
    I need to keep a number in my phone for this as it could happen again- needs to be the right agency with power of arrest and equipment to confiscate motorized vehicles.
    Is there a King County park police number dedicated for this? Any ideas?
    Thanks all,
    -rmHow to report mopeds & motorcycles at Duthie?-moped.jpg

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    How about just being a normal person and talking to them, letting them know e-bikes aren't allowed there? The guy probably didn't know.

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    Punch him in the d*ck and tell him to leave. That is the proper reporting method.
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    Rollmonkey, might be good to spend less time on the internet.

    CraigS has it right.

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    You may want to contact the land manager about better signing if it is lacking.
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    Email this guy at KC Parks every time you see one so they have some idea of how often it happens.
    Gary.Brown@kingcounty.gov

    Ebikes are definitely not allowed.
    There's a big difference between ripping and skidding. Those who skid don't know how to ride.

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    What do people think? Do dealers have some level of responsibility to inform customers of legal access for the use of e-bikes? I understand they never have for human only powered bikes but e-bike use is fairly new and is already restricted. (which I agree with). If customers learn there trail access restrictions will they try and return the e-bike? Or is it just about being a self educated consumer? I ran into an individual (not on an e-bike) but the subject came up and he was aware they are not allowed but stated (no one is enforcing it). He was an older guy with his son and wanted a way to keep up. I wonder how he would feel if his son used that excuse for something he did?

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    There are plenty of places regular bikes arenít allowed. I donít expect the bike shop to tell me where all of them are, so no I donít think itís their job to do that.

    That said, as a courtesy they might mention it to people but I donít think it rises to the level of a responsibility. I also think people need to stop being so snooty about it and just go talk to people. It makes mountain bikers look like dicks if we go around wishing people would get arrested and want them to have their property confiscated.

    Hopefully this doesnít turn into another flame fest like over in the e-bike forum.

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    I actually meant to start a thread in the last few days but since this one popped up I will go ahead and say things here.

    wEak-bikes are coming and there isn't anything we can do about it. Nobody is more of a purist then me for the beauty, simplicity, egalitarianess, and elegance of the human powered machine.

    Believe it drives me insane with rage (by which I mean bemusedly annoyed) to be putting out 100% on a climb and have some joey, fred, or senior citizen ask me to yield and go whirring by. If that someone is muscle powered, they have earned my respect, and i thank them for the inspiration. If I'm the one passing so much the better, I have earned it. Not to even get started on trail access and hiker perceptions. These things are fast uphill.

    As this thread already shows, enforcement will not happen. Bikers are just not going to be the type to try and harass and shame wEak-bikers, nor would it do much good. And in our wildest fantasies we will not want nor would it be possible to have Rangers stalking trails and writing tickets.

    I just got back from a week of mountain biking in France. wEak-bikes were very common as commuters and utility bikes and I saw quite a few hanging around the ski areas although not so much on the trail. The crew I was with was pretty DH oriented, and one rainy day we were stuck on town trails so several rented wEak-bikes for fun and most were enthralled (note the local bike store had almost a dozen sitting there ready to rent). The evening was spent checking prices and specs on the internet. Face it, many of our brethren do not eagerly anticipate the thrill of riding up Master Link much less Ranger Creek. They only want to go down. If half of a group of serious mountain bikers (serious enough to travel to France for a week) can be that easily seduced then the battle is already lost.

    My cousin used to ride pretty seriously in the 90's. We even did a trip to Durango together back when that was the center of the MB world. He always kept a bike around but wasn't serious about it. Just saw him again at a family wedding, he was pretty psyched on his new Levo. Same thing I heard from the DH crew "well most of our rides are long boring road climbs followed by the down, so it only makes sense..."

    Anyway I'm starting to ramble here. The point is, you see a Dad and his kid riding around Duthie on wEak-bikes that they just spent $12k on. Other than politely mentioning they aren't allowed is anyone really going to go after them ? When you see Neal Strobel shredding Ranger on one are you going to get in his face ? I don't think any biker really wants to be that guy. I suppose a general attitude of shame and derision might keep the virus in check for awhile but really it will only delay the inevitable. I see a future where ~50% of the riders at Tiger on a weekend are on wEak-bikes. (I say on a weekend because weeknight tiger riders are just a bit more hardcore ha ha). We might have a bit more success keeping them out of the backcountry, but not because of any enforcement mechanism only because they become a liability the minute you have to carry them and because most buyers will be dilettantes or shredders.

    I'm depressed about it, and I think it will continue to move the sport in a direction I'm not all that enamored of, but face it. You and I now ride "classic bikes".
    Last edited by Preston67; 09-25-2017 at 10:49 PM.

  10. #10
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    Yeah, the shops should be telling people sure we can sell you one, but be aware you canít ride it at tiger, duthie, Tokul, etc. then again, the dealers should think of that before stocking them. When they donít, itís not just the ebike consumer getting screwed, itís the rest of the MTB community.

    Quote Originally Posted by DHRracer View Post
    What do people think? Do dealers have some level of responsibility to inform customers of legal access for the use of e-bikes? I understand they never have for human only powered bikes but e-bike use is fairly new and is already restricted. (which I agree with). If customers learn there trail access restrictions will they try and return the e-bike? Or is it just about being a self educated consumer? I ran into an individual (not on an e-bike) but the subject came up and he was aware they are not allowed but stated (no one is enforcing it). He was an older guy with his son and wanted a way to keep up. I wonder how he would feel if his son used that excuse for something he did?
    If it's not powered solely by you, it's motorized.

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    >And in our wildest fantasies we will not want nor would it be possible to have Rangers stalking trails and writing tickets

    Where I moved from in VA & MD, this is exactly what happens. I've seen people get chased down by police cars with lights on and issued a $300 ticket for riding when it's muddy on public trails, which are posted "closed when wet". I applauded this at the time because it preserves access. It appears things are more laid back out West but personally this is exactly what I want.

    In this thread someone with 10,000 mtbr forum posts told me I'm spending too much time on the Internet. Intriguing. When I'm not on the Internet, I volunteer to build trails for Evergreen and have spent a day cutting bench 4000 feet up. I want my work to last. Mopeds on the trails will be an excuse for national action against access, and I'll never get to ride the trails I help build.

    I'm going to find out who to contact in King County, and I'm going to call them every time I see a moped.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by rollmonkey View Post
    In this thread someone with 10,000 mtbr forum posts told me I'm spending too much time on the Internet. Intriguing. When I'm not on the Internet, I volunteer to build trails for Evergreen and have spent a day cutting bench 4000 feet up. I want my work to last. Mopeds on the trails will be an excuse for national action against access, and I'll never get to ride the trails I help build.
    Your could try addressing me (and the kid on the eBike) directly, it might be a more productive conversation.

    What bothers me about your original post, and the eBike hatred in general, has nothing to do with eBikes. We should all be good ambassadors for our sport. Volunteering and contributing our time, money and physical effort does not entitle any of us to harass and shame others. Weíre talking about people who are often new to the sport arenít even aware of what Evergreen does or how much work goes into trail building. Will ďpunching them in the dickĒ and making fun of their moped encourage them to join evergreen, join a build party, or earn their vert? Not likely. It just makes mountain bikers look like assholes, and that bothers me.

    I hardly ever ride Duthie. When I go there itís usually with kids and itís great to see whatís been accomplished in a county park! Itís where kids get hooked on biking. Meanwhile, PNW mountain bikers are sharing lots of backcountry trails with backpackers, hunters, equestrians and motos. I had so many friendly conversations with other trail users this summer, it felt like everyone was happy to be outside and escaping the divisive bitching that seems to be saturating our culture. And guess what, eBikes are already legal on many of those trails, and the backpackers/equestrians/motos probably wonít really give a shit when ebikes inevitably show up, because they know how to share respectfully like courteous adults. Meanwhile at duthie......

  13. #13
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    Holy novel writing. How many keyboards were sacrificed in your nearly 10k of posts?

    Now, this Ďebike hatredí. Iím not seeing hatred of ebikes. Iím seeing pushback against calling a motorized vehicle a bicycle and treating it as such. There is nothing wrong with ebikes and I can see how theyíd be fun. Theyíre just motorized and should be treated accordingly. A duthie for electric motorcycles would be sweet. The NMA should get on that.
    If it's not powered solely by you, it's motorized.

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  14. #14
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    Technically e-bikes ARE allowed at Duthie, Tiger and Tokul. Any place a vehicle is allowed so is an e-bike. You can loop logging roads all day long!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Lynch View Post
    Technically e-bikes ARE allowed at Duthie, Tiger and Tokul. Any place a vehicle is allowed so is an e-bike. You can loop logging roads all day long!
    Duthie and Tiger require permission to use a motorized vehicle behind the gates. Tokul explicitly prohibits motorcycles, even with a motorized permit. I believe with Tokul a motorcycle is not even allowed to be carried in a motor vehicle.
    If it's not powered solely by you, it's motorized.

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    So I can use that e-bike?... If we don't cut them off now, it will spiral out of control.
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    ^^^ I've seen your strava times, I assumed you already did!
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    A big "No E-Bikes Allowed" sign at the entrance to Duthie would be a good deterent. Same with Tiger, Same with the tokuls.

    Other than that, who cares? Hikers and equestrians dont know the difference between an e-bike and a normal bike. they would be the only ones to raise a stink.

    Folks worried about their trailwork getting trashed? you either didnt build it well enough for a high traffic area, or you need to go build your sweet loam line somewhere folks wont find it.

    Id wager the vast majority of e-bike users are either jerrys who dont know its illegal, or are MTBers who simply cant keep riding a normal MTB due to physical issues (not just simply being out of shape).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    Other than that, who cares? Hikers and equestrians dont know the difference between an e-bike and a normal bike. they would be the only ones to raise a stink.

    Folks worried about their trailwork getting trashed? you either didnt build it well enough for a high traffic area, or you need to go build your sweet loam line somewhere folks wont find it.
    For the most part, e-bikes seem like they are fine for trails when you're going downhill. It's the uphills where the tires could spin and rip up/rut out the trail like dirt bikes do.

  20. #20
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    What bothers me about your original post, and the eBike hatred in general, has nothing to do with eBikes. We should all be good ambassadors for our sport. Volunteering and contributing our time, money and physical effort does not entitle any of us to harass and shame others. Weíre talking about people who are often new to the sport arenít even aware of what Evergreen does or how much work goes into trail building. Will ďpunching them in the dickĒ and making fun of their moped encourage them to join evergreen, join a build party, or earn their vert? Not likely. It just makes mountain bikers look like assholes, and that bothers me.
    To be clear, I did not do or advocate for any of these things. I just asked who I can call to have motorized users arrested when they're out destroying the trails I build, maintain, donate money to, raise my kid on and depend on. It was a simple request for information, it was answered politely, and I filed a report.

    I don't advocate for harassing, injuring, hating, yelling at, etc. anyone who does this, whether they choose to break the law with a 4-wheeler, a supercross bike, a moped or a monster truck. I just want to let law enforcement handle it - quietly.

    Where I used to live, there was a bike-only path where every few months someone would take a car out and start running over cyclists:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.8aa63c8b82ab
    https://www.americaninno.com/dc/ever...ail-as-a-road/

    I've become accustomed to motorized use of bicycle trails- I commuted every day on the W&OD. I kept a number handy for reporting cars there too. The only answer is cameras, vigilance, consequences and deterrence. Nothing different here. Let's just ride our bikes and take care of each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Lynch View Post
    Technically e-bikes ARE allowed at Duthie, Tiger and Tokul. Any place a vehicle is allowed so is an e-bike. You can loop logging roads all day long!
    Technically, a citation is needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_schuldt View Post
    Email this guy at KC Parks every time you see one
    Thanks Dave - report filed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rollmonkey View Post
    To be clear, I did not do or advocate for any of these things. I just asked who I can call to have motorized users arrested when they're out destroying the trails I build, maintain, donate money to, raise my kid on and depend on. Nothing different here. Let's just ride our bikes and take care of each other.
    We can respectfully disagree on this.

    My view is that "taking care of each other" would be having a polite conversation with this guy, letting him know that his eBike (actually not a moped or motorcycle) isn't allowed in KC parks and he may be reported. That's probably going to go a lot farther in discouraging him from coming back. The report you filed is probably just a data point, for now at least.

    Last, I don' think that guy, or any ebikers I've seen so far are going to be "destroying" any trails. But again, we can respectfully disagree. I'll wait for evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Lynch View Post
    ^^^ I've seen your strava times, I assumed you already did!
    Haha! Guess we'll never know...
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    @OP

    If you expect your potential report is going to lead to an arrest or confiscation of equipment you should spend you time more productively by buying a lottery ticket. KCPD and the sheriffs department have higher priorities at Duthie to deal with like vehicle thefts from the parking lots, theft of park property (like sign posts), and off-leash dogs.

    If I saw someone riding an e-bike out at Duthie I would politely inform them of the facts about KC parks as I do for people riding without helmets and especially the idiots who insist on hitting the big jump lines on Huffy/K-mart "bikes".

    My personal pet-peave is trail runners running the XC trails counter clockwise with their music tuned up so they cant hear a rider coming down a steep section of trail or around a blind corner.
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    The main reason to report anything to the authorities is so they know what's going on in their parks. It's only once the issue becomes commonplace and is a problem that they'll allocate resources to dealing with it. I wouldn't do more than ping the ranger unless the person on the ebike was being an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Last, I don' think that guy, or any ebikers I've seen so far are going to be "destroying" any trails. But again, we can respectfully disagree. I'll wait for evidence.
    I think this is the core of the disagreement about mopeds (motor + pedals = moped). Folks who have been through access wars understand their enemy a little better. A rational person might think "X isn't doing any damage, X is harmless". That's a fact, and the important thing about the access debate is that facts don't matter. Mountain bikers have been thrown out of entire states by equestrian groups - see Montana - due to erosion issues, despite the fact that equestrians create erosion greater than hiking and bikes do not.

    Once you understand the enemy, you think differently. The Sierra Club isn't an environmental group, it's not about conservation, it's about destroying bike access at any cost, even if that means giving up the land to condo development rather than letting people ride bikes on it. I saw it happen in DC where I used to live. When Portland had local mountain bike trails and a mountain bike community started to form, the city council spent close to a million bucks to buy out the private land the trails were on and close the park just to keep mtb out of Portland:

    Portland officials ban mountain bikers from longtime turf at River View Natural Area | OregonLive.com

    The enemy will build traps on trails that can kill children:

    B.C. woman gets three years’ probation for years-long booby trapping campaign on mountain bike trail | National Post

    The enemy will shut down a free press with threats of extinction:

    Editor's Note: Human Powered | Adventure Sports Journal

    The damage is not factual damage to the trails or the environment. The damage consists of giving aid and comfort to the enemy- specifically, a new argument for trail closure against mountain bikes. "Some bikes have motors, some don't, for safety purposes all bikes should be treated as motorized vehicles on a national level". If you don't believe this can happen, ask anyone who used to fly model airplanes about the day their airplane became a drone. The airplane people yelled at the quadcopter people to be responsible, no one listened, and suddenly there was national registration, a 500' ceiling, criminal penalties and the end of a sport enjoyed by hundreds of thousands of people.

    They are coming for us, and they will use mopeds as the weapon. When national legislation to keep mountain biking in moto areas only gets passed, the moped movement will be responsible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rollmonkey View Post
    I think this is the core of the disagreement about mopeds (motor + pedals = moped). Folks who have been through access wars understand their enemy a little better. A rational person might think "X isn't doing any damage, X is harmless". That's a fact, and the important thing about the access debate is that facts don't matter. Mountain bikers have been thrown out of entire states by equestrian groups - see Montana - due to erosion issues, despite the fact that equestrians create erosion greater than hiking and bikes do not.

    Once you understand the enemy, you think differently. The Sierra Club isn't an environmental group, it's not about conservation, it's about destroying bike access at any cost, even if that means giving up the land to condo development rather than letting people ride bikes on it. I saw it happen in DC where I used to live. When Portland had local mountain bike trails and a mountain bike community started to form, the city council spent close to a million bucks to buy out the private land the trails were on and close the park just to keep mtb out of Portland:

    Portland officials ban mountain bikers from longtime turf at River View Natural Area | OregonLive.com

    The enemy will build traps on trails that can kill children:

    B.C. woman gets three years’ probation for years-long booby trapping campaign on mountain bike trail | National Post

    The enemy will shut down a free press with threats of extinction:

    Editor's Note: Human Powered | Adventure Sports Journal

    The damage is not factual damage to the trails or the environment. The damage consists of giving aid and comfort to the enemy- specifically, a new argument for trail closure against mountain bikes. "Some bikes have motors, some don't, for safety purposes all bikes should be treated as motorized vehicles on a national level". If you don't believe this can happen, ask anyone who used to fly model airplanes about the day their airplane became a drone. The airplane people yelled at the quadcopter people to be responsible, no one listened, and suddenly there was national registration, a 500' ceiling, criminal penalties and the end of a sport enjoyed by hundreds of thousands of people.

    They are coming for us, and they will use mopeds as the weapon. When national legislation to keep mountain biking in moto areas only gets passed, the moped movement will be responsible.
    Except that the new director of grassroots campaigns for The Sierra Club is a DH mtber and skier... one of the main TGR guys. He is focused on MTB.

    Also, most of the trails in Washington are on timber land... AKA private land. MTB isnt getting outlawed on that land.


    Instead of fear mongering based on past issues, what are the specific dangers and issues related to the typical pedal-assist type of E-mountian bikes? they dont go any faster downhill and cause more danger to other trail users. They dont really cause any more environmental damage. So what actual ammo do they give anti-MTB folks that they didnt already have?

    Also, where are you riding that isnt a pretty darn MTB specific trail system?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    Except that the new director of grassroots campaigns for The Sierra Club is a DH mtber and skier... one of the main TGR guys. He is focused on MTB.

    Also, most of the trails in Washington are on timber land... AKA private land. MTB isnt getting outlawed on that land.
    Really? I can think of a handful of areas on private timberland (Tokul, Tolt, Galby, Stottlemeyer, Duval?). What areas are on private land am I missing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    Instead of fear mongering based on past issues, what are the specific dangers and issues related to the typical pedal-assist type of E-mountian bikes? they dont go any faster downhill and cause more danger to other trail users. They dont really cause any more environmental damage. So what actual ammo do they give anti-MTB folks that they didnt already have?
    A few things come to mind: ability to ride much faster on XC trails/connectors, ability to ride much faster on climbs, ability to ride more miles = more wear and tear on trails. Those 3 issues alone would also impact how trails are designed because you're not, for example, coming into a corner at 4mph, but now you're coming into a corner at 10mph and that is a major difference in how a trail is designed. We have designed our trails around human powered propulsion.

    The elephant in the room is the ability for trail expansion - especially into alpine types of areas. We are all clamoring for more "wilderness-like" riding opportunities and I've personally heard e-bikes brought up as a major concern from prominent folks in the recreation and conservation communities when we are proposing these types of projects. Keep in mind that for 3 decades, we've promoted our user group as human-powered and this definitely throws a wrench into those discussions now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    Also, where are you riding that isnt a pretty darn MTB specific trail system?
    Blanchard, 410 trails, Methow, Green Mountain, Chuckanut, St. Helens, Teanaway, Kettle Crest....the list could go on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme View Post
    Really? I can think of a handful of areas on private timberland (Tokul, Tolt, Galby, Stottlemeyer, Duval?). What areas are on private land am I missing?



    A few things come to mind: ability to ride much faster on XC trails/connectors, ability to ride much faster on climbs, ability to ride more miles = more wear and tear on trails. Those 3 issues alone would also impact how trails are designed because you're not, for example, coming into a corner at 4mph, but now you're coming into a corner at 10mph and that is a major difference in how a trail is designed. We have designed our trails around human powered propulsion.

    The elephant in the room is the ability for trail expansion - especially into alpine types of areas. We are all clamoring for more "wilderness-like" riding opportunities and I've personally heard e-bikes brought up as a major concern from prominent folks in the recreation and conservation communities when we are proposing these types of projects. Keep in mind that for 3 decades, we've promoted our user group as human-powered and this definitely throws a wrench into those discussions now.



    Blanchard, 410 trails, Methow, Green Mountain, Chuckanut, St. Helens, Teanaway, Kettle Crest....the list could go on.
    Ability to ride much faster on climbs means riding at 5mph and not toasting your legs instead of 2-3mph and being cooked at the top. climbing a trail will not be dangerous to other trail users because the speed is not there and the ability to stop quickly still is. More miles being ridden is a good thing. Same exact consequence as having more inshape folks, lighter bikes, and more riders. more trails being lapped means more people wanting more trails to ride which leads to greater advocacy.

    It seems like all the people super worried about e-bikes are the folks that are in VERY good shape, are XC oriented, and frequent fairly remote areas. Those folks are the exception. With the exception of chuckanut (which is mostly shuttled anyway). I dont think there are that many people looking for more alpine epic rides... largely because they require the commitment to get in great shape, and then endure the hours long suckfest to get to the top (or tops). People generally ride MTBs for the adrenaline filled, active fun, not for the views, or for a runners high.

    And yes, there are plenty of places all over WA that have killer trail systems built on a handshake agreement with a timber company. just cause Evergreen or IMBA didnt build it, doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

    And frankly, id like to remove all vehicle (horses especially) from all wilderness areas across the nation. human powered or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    Except that the new director of grassroots campaigns for The Sierra Club is a DH mtber and skier...
    Also, most of the trails in Washington are on timber land... AKA private land. MTB isnt getting outlawed on that land.
    Instead of fear mongering based on past issues, what are the specific dangers and issues related to the typical pedal-assist type of E-mountian bikes?
    Past issues? The Montana closure happened this year. The forest service declared half the state to be no-bikes wilderness due to "social impact". If you think private land matters, remember that the FAA banned toy airplanes in private airspace. You can't legally fly a toy airplane you built inside your own house in 2017 (think that through). Sierra club hiring a mtber is smart- know your enemy- they must be reading Sun Tzu. To your last question, factual impacts of mopeds to trails- there are none, of course, I mentioned this up front. If you think politics has anything to do with facts, I can't help you.
    Last edited by rollmonkey; 09-27-2017 at 10:30 AM. Reason: Accidentally a word

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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    And yes, there are plenty of places all over WA that have killer trail systems built on a handshake agreement with a timber company. just cause Evergreen or IMBA didnt build it, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. .
    Haha -- I like how you're dropping all your trail knowledge on EB. That's some of that high-test irony, bro!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeePhroh View Post
    Haha -- I like how you're dropping all your trail knowledge on EB. That's some of that high-test irony, bro!
    I dont even know what that means?

    Quote Originally Posted by rollmonkey View Post
    Past issues? The Montana closure happened this year. The forest service declared half the state to be no-bikes wilderness due to "social impact". If you think private land matters, remember that the FAA banned toy airplanes in private airspace. You can't legally fly a toy airplane you built inside your own house in 2017 (think that through). Sierra club hiring a mtber is smart- know your enemy- they must be reading Sun Tzu. To your last question, factual impacts of mopeds to trails- there are none, of course, I mentioned this up front. If you think politics has anything to do with facts, I can't help you.
    Damn, you must love your conspiracy theories!! haha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DHRracer View Post
    What do people think? Do dealers have some level of responsibility to inform customers of legal access for the use of e-bikes? I understand they never have for human only powered bikes but e-bike use is fairly new and is already restricted. (which I agree with). If customers learn there trail access restrictions will they try and return the e-bike? Or is it just about being a self educated consumer? I ran into an individual (not on an e-bike) but the subject came up and he was aware they are not allowed but stated (no one is enforcing it). He was an older guy with his son and wanted a way to keep up. I wonder how he would feel if his son used that excuse for something he did?
    I hear this a lot and I think it is unrealistic. Capitalism requires that you separate people from their money however possible. We live in a capitalist society ergo why prevent sales at your shop?

    I haven't ever heard a bike shop send a road out with a set of rules for using the road or ensuring that they have a helmet in WA. Heck we have all those bike shares and all the riders you see using them are using them illegally if they are not helmeted still they operate and rent bikes without a disclaimer or education.

    Ultimately e-bikes are a freight train coming down the tracks and land users and managers will be forced to confront this onslaught either now or when it comes to a tipping point. Obviously it seems that an active notification campaign will help the land managers understand the impact better than yelling at the user on the trail. Adding signage at trail heads will make up for users buying things uneducated and will force education on them at least at specific locations. I bet a gofundme for trail signage would easily build enough money to get a few signs for the main WA trails, educate the people that ponied up bike cash for their fancy electric toys.

    Frankly e-bikes will either create closures, push bikes off trails or create a situation where land managers actually address the problem (though they could swing either way here too). I am scared for our future where an electric motor is seen as a way to alleviate the boredom of mountain biking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rollmonkey View Post
    Past issues? The Montana closure happened this year. The forest service declared half the state to be no-bikes wilderness due to "social impact". If you think private land matters, remember that the FAA banned toy airplanes in private airspace. You can't legally fly a toy airplane you built inside your own house in 2017 (think that through). Sierra club hiring a mtber is smart- know your enemy- they must be reading Sun Tzu. To your last question, factual impacts of mopeds to trails- there are none, of course, I mentioned this up front. If you think politics has anything to do with facts, I can't help you.
    'most of the trails in WA are on private land'? Californiagrown is simply wrong. By a long shot.

    I look forward to The Sierra Club reversing their past stances on mtb and embracing our use. Californiagrown, let us know when we can expect to see that.
    If it's not powered solely by you, it's motorized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeePhroh View Post
    Haha -- I like how you're dropping all your trail knowledge on EB. That's some of that high-test irony, bro!
    Quote Originally Posted by rollmonkey View Post
    Past issues? The Montana closure happened this year. The forest service declared half the state to be no-bikes wilderness due to "social impact". If you think private land matters, remember that the FAA banned toy airplanes in private airspace. You can't legally fly a toy airplane you built inside your own house in 2017 (think that through). Sierra club hiring a mtber is smart- know your enemy- they must be reading Sun Tzu. To your last question, factual impacts of mopeds to trails- there are none, of course, I mentioned this up front. If you think politics has anything to do with facts, I can't help you.
    Quote Originally Posted by ACree View Post
    'most of the trails in WA are on private land'? Californiagrown is simply wrong. By a long shot.

    I look forward to The Sierra Club reversing their past stances on mtb and embracing our use. Californiagrown, let us know when we can expect to see that.
    My apologies, i'll rephrase, most of the good trails are on private logging land or in working forests. Both of which the sierra club and other environmental groups do not care much about the recreational use that goes on there.

    Also, have you not kept up on SC policy regarding bicycles? They have been softening their stance for years now, and are working with IMBA and local authorities to develop MTB legal trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    My apologies, i'll rephrase, most of the good trails are on private logging land or in working forests. Both of which the sierra club and other environmental groups do not care much about the recreational use that goes on there.

    Also, have you not kept up on SC policy regarding bicycles? They have been softening their stance for years now, and are working with IMBA and local authorities to develop MTB legal trails.
    It's not true that most of the good trails are on private or working forest either. LOTS of great riding in WA is on land that fits neither of those descriptions. Arguably the best riding in fact.

    Show me where the Sierra Club is working on developing high quality, backcountry MTB trail. Frankly they don't need to help develop MTB trail. They need to stop their efforts at kicking MTB use off of existing trail.
    If it's not powered solely by you, it's motorized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeePhroh View Post
    Haha -- I like how you're dropping all your trail knowledge on EB. That's some of that high-test irony, bro!
    Quote Originally Posted by rollmonkey View Post
    Past issues? The Montana closure happened this year. The forest service declared half the state to be no-bikes wilderness due to "social impact". If you think private land matters, remember that the FAA banned toy airplanes in private airspace. You can't legally fly a toy airplane you built inside your own house in 2017 (think that through). Sierra club hiring a mtber is smart- know your enemy- they must be reading Sun Tzu. To your last question, factual impacts of mopeds to trails- there are none, of course, I mentioned this up front. If you think politics has anything to do with facts, I can't help you.
    Quote Originally Posted by ACree View Post
    It's not true that most of the good trails are on private or working forest either. LOTS of great riding in WA is on land that fits neither of those descriptions. Arguably the best riding in fact.

    Show me where the Sierra Club is working on developing high quality, backcountry MTB trail. Frankly they don't need to help develop MTB trail. They need to stop their efforts at kicking MTB use off of existing trail.
    We will have to agree to disagree on the first part haha.

    Read this interview for a softened stance: https://www.adventure-journal.com/20...nd-wilderness/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    We will have to agree to disagree on the first part haha.

    Read this interview for a softened stance: https://www.adventure-journal.com/20...nd-wilderness/
    I can't tell if you're a shill for ebikes or the Sierra Club, or both. It's obvious you lack knowledge of WA trails.

    That is not an example of a softened stance, it might be an example of a better PR strategy.
    If it's not powered solely by you, it's motorized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    I dont even know what that means?
    Jeebus...you really don't know what that means, do you? Lemme see if I can help you out, California: you were just dumping your vast knowledge of private partnership trail systems in WA on ebxtreme, aka EB, aka Eric Brown, the trail director of Whatcom Mountain Bike Coalition, i.e., the guy who is largely responsible for negotiating and maintaining the agreements for Galbraith. Also, incidentally, one of the initial Tokul builders, who routed Flowtron, Safety First, Last Frontier, Crazy Ivan, among others.

    So, yeah, kind of ironic that you thought he might need your help in understanding how things work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeePhroh View Post
    Haha -- I like how you're dropping all your trail knowledge on EB. That's some of that high-test irony, bro!
    Quote Originally Posted by rollmonkey View Post
    Past issues? The Montana closure happened this year. The forest service declared half the state to be no-bikes wilderness due to "social impact". If you think private land matters, remember that the FAA banned toy airplanes in private airspace. You can't legally fly a toy airplane you built inside your own house in 2017 (think that through). Sierra club hiring a mtber is smart- know your enemy- they must be reading Sun Tzu. To your last question, factual impacts of mopeds to trails- there are none, of course, I mentioned this up front. If you think politics has anything to do with facts, I can't help you.
    Quote Originally Posted by ACree View Post
    I can't tell if you're a shill for ebikes or the Sierra Club, or both. It's obvious you lack knowledge of WA trails.

    That is not an example of a softened stance, it might be an example of a better PR strategy.
    Its obvious we have different definitions of "good trail".

    As for the Sierra club deal, change is slow. Acknowledgment of progress made is a good way to ensure good will and facilitate more progress. If you are planning to be an enthusiastic opponent of SC until the day they turn into Evergreen, well, thats just incredibly unproductive and dumb.

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    I would love to hear Harvey Manning comments of E-bike on trails..he he he he....

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeePhroh View Post
    So, yeah, kind of ironic that you thought he might need your help in understanding how things work.
    I'm currently working on an easement deal and the topic is already coming up in that process.

    Something else that's not come up in this thread that is worth considering.

    It's not about what these bikes are today (thinking of the Levo, as an example). We've got to look ahead and think about what they will become in the near-future. They'll have more power, longer battery life, less weight and the ability to propel you sans pedaling. Some people are already strapping 3,000 Watt motors onto their bikes....true story.

    My wife and I have a Xtracycle townie bike with the bionx system for hauling the kids and grabbing groceries. On that system (and most out there), it's super easy to hack the firmware to remove the 20mph governor, etc. That system also has a throttle/turbo button that allows you to not pedal if you're so inclined.

    Expect a video/story on pinkbike on the e-mtb topic in the near future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme View Post

    It's not about what these bikes are today (thinking of the Levo, as an example). We've got to look ahead and think about what they will become in the near-future.
    Also I'm sure they will become more discrete to the point it's much harder to tell it's an e-bike.

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    First things first, they are "mopeds" and we need to use that phrase only, not "E-bike"!
    Goodbye '95 ZJ. Just so you know, transfering box of left behind womens panties to next truck. Thank you ZJ!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pdxmark View Post
    First things first, they are "mopeds" and we need to use that phrase only, not "E-bike"!
    And dirt bikes should be called dirt motorcycles! LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by pdxmark View Post
    First things first, they are "mopeds" and we need to use that phrase only, not "E-bike"!
    Negative. They are bicycles with motors which makes them motorcycles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodway View Post
    Negative. They are bicycles with motors which makes them motorcycles.
    I kind of like the term MORB (Motorized Off Road Bicycle)as coined by the angry singlespeeder. Mostly because it emphasizes motorized.
    If it's not powered solely by you, it's motorized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ACree View Post
    I kind of like the term MORB (Motorized Off Road Bicycle)as coined by the angry singlespeeder.
    Europe seems to be centering on the term "pedelec," which I suppose hasn't really caught on here as it sounds like something the local sheriff's office would need to send letters out about if one moved into your neighborhood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    Its obvious we have different definitions of "good trail".

    As for the Sierra club deal, change is slow. Acknowledgment of progress made is a good way to ensure good will and facilitate more progress. If you are planning to be an enthusiastic opponent of SC until the day they turn into Evergreen, well, thats just incredibly unproductive and dumb.
    I think the issue is more likely that you haven't ridden the vast majority of trails in the state.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post

    As for the Sierra club deal, change is slow. Acknowledgment of progress made is a good way to ensure good will and facilitate more progress. If you are planning to be an enthusiastic opponent of SC until the day they turn into Evergreen, well, thats just incredibly unproductive and dumb.
    The proposed Crater Lake Wilderness in Oregon would ban bikes from hundreds of miles of some the best single track in the country. What do you think the Sierra Club's position is on that?
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    Instead of fear mongering based on past issues, what are the specific dangers and issues related to the typical pedal-assist type of E-mountian bikes?
    What effect do you think that e-bikes will have on the efforts to gain some access to Wilderness areas?
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

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    Maybe he's been smokin californiagrown too much.
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

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    Should we let something that could do this...

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    Into here?

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    Goodbye '95 ZJ. Just so you know, transfering box of left behind womens panties to next truck. Thank you ZJ!

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    Just wanted to share some of my personal (not Evergreen's) thoughts on the topic...

    I think e-bikes are already having a negative impact on mtb advocacy. This topic came up at a Maloney Ridge (Skykomish) trail planning meeting last month. It was made clear that other agencies, user groups, enviro orgs and stewardship orgs would make the planning, permitting and funding process more difficult with e-bikes in the picture.

    I also think they look fun, they can make trail work more efficient, they are awesome for disabled riders, and they are here to stay.

    So it's great to hear more than just the "F-You, they are motorized, keep off non-moto trails" vs. the "F-You, they are bikes, they should be allowed on all bike trails" positions on this thread. It's a tough problem for land managers and policy makers. No quick & easy solution.

    Why are we getting so many new trails now? Because we raised funds, organized volunteers, got permission and built most of them ourselves. Can we do that with e-bikes?

    Next summer I'd like to see us organize and do something with the 1000s of miles of moto trails we have in Washington. E-bikes can can make fixing up those more remote trails much easier. Below is a list of over 400 miles of trail in a 50 mile radius around Cle Elum. USFS GIS says all allow motorized use. Many are friggin awesome on a bike. Many were awesome and now are barely rideable. The Jolly Mt fire probably destroyed several of them.

    And let's address King County -- where there isn't a single dirt trail on public land that allows motorized use. King County Parks wants to find opportunities. I personally don't have time to go looking.

    Re: the OP, if we do keep on self-policing at places like Duthie and Tiger, we will keep having an impact. I feel strongly that we all have a responsibility to approach anyone riding the trails with an e-bike and tell them they aren't allowed. Tell them it's being worked on at the county and state levels. For now, these places are for non-motorized use only.

    Moto trails within a 50 mile radius of Cle Elum (according to USFS GIS database -- there are probably some errors in this list):

    Mission Ridge ORV Trail #1201
    Tronsen Ridge ORV Trail #1204
    Tronsen Meadow ORV Trail #1205
    Hereford Meadows Trail #1207
    Table Mountain Trail #1209
    Devils Gulch ORV Trail #1220
    Red Devil ORV Trail #1221
    Yellow Hill Trail #1222
    Red Hill ORV Trail #1223
    Red Hill Spur ORV Trail #1223.1
    County Line Trail #1226
    Gooseberry Flat Trail #1227
    Naneum Rim Trail #1234
    Way Creek Trail #1235
    Gnat Flat Trail #1236
    Goat Peak Trail #1304
    Jolly Mountain Trail #1307
    Domerie Peak Trail #1308
    Blowout Mountain Trail #1318
    Elk Trap Springs Trail #1319
    North Ridge Trail #1321
    Mount Clifty Trail #1321.1
    Greek Creek Basin Trail #1321.2
    Cle Elum Ridge Trail #1326
    Blazed Ridge Trail #1333
    Little Creek Basin Trail #1334
    Sasse Mountain Trail #1340
    Corral Creek Trail #1340.1
    Hoyt Trail #1347
    Manastash Lake Trail #1350
    Plantation Trail #1350.2
    Iron Bear Trail #1351
    West Fork Teanaway Trail #1353
    High Creek Trail #1354
    Ragan Spur Trail #1354.1
    Jolly Creek Trail #1355
    Robinson Gulch Trail #1357
    Taneum Ridge Trail #1363
    Teanaway Ridge Trail #1364
    Frost Mountain Trail #1366
    Frost Mountain Lookout Trail #1366.1
    South Fork Taneum Trail #1367
    Snowshoe Ridge Trail #1368
    Ice Water Loops Trail #1370
    Naneum Wilson Trail #1371
    Drop Creek Spur Trail #1371.1
    Howard Creek Trail #1372
    Old Ellensburg Trail #1373
    Grouse Spring Trail #1373.1
    Howard Creek Tie Trail #1373.2
    First Creek Trail #1374
    North Fork Taneum Trail #1377
    Lightning Point Trail #1377.2
    Fishhook Flat Trail #1378
    Miller Peak Trail #1379
    Naneum Creek Trail #1381
    Johnson Medra Trail #1383
    Jungle Creek Trail #1383.1
    Rocky Saddle Trail #1384
    Shoestring Lake Trail #1385
    Keenan Meadow Trail #1386
    South Fork Manastash Trail #1386.1
    Wilson Creek Trail #1387
    Manastash Ridge Trail #1388
    Upper Big Creek Trail #1388.2
    Naneum Meadows Trail #1389
    Boulder De Roux Trail #1392
    Deroux Spur Trail #1392.1
    Elsnor Mine Trail #1392.8
    Middle Fork Teanaway Trail #1393
    Mount Lillian Trail #1601
    Pyramid Peak Trail #941
    Legos Trail #942
    Bear Creek Trail #943
    Cub Creek Trail #943A
    Little Bear Trail #943B
    Middle Fork Trail #945
    South Fork Trail #946
    Mount Clifty Trail #947
    Quartz Mountain Trail #948
    Quartz Creek Trail #949
    Old Kaner Trail #950
    West Quartz Creek Loop Trail #952
    Indian Flat Trail #955
    Little Bald Mountain Trail #961
    Sand Creek Trail #963
    Lower Sand Creek Trail #963A
    Yellow Jacket Trail #963B
    Lost Creek Trail #964
    Milk Creek Trail #965
    Gold Creek Trail #966

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwestra2 View Post

    Re: the OP, if we do keep on self-policing at places like Duthie and Tiger, we will keep having an impact. I feel strongly that we all have a responsibility to approach anyone riding the trails with an e-bike and tell them they aren't allowed. Tell them it's being worked on at the county and state levels. For now, these places are for non-motorized use only.
    I agree, but be respectful about it. Some of them might truly not know.

    There are a lot of USFS motorized-approved trails that I've started riding on my normal MTB that are a lot of fun. E-bikers should check them out. Those trails could use more people riding them and taking care of them. The mere fact that 50-80+ years ago the forest service made these trails and they're still available and maintained for recreational use is awesome!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwestra2 View Post

    Moto trails within a 50 mile radius of Cle Elum (according to USFS GIS database -- there are probably some errors in this list):

    Mission Ridge ORV Trail #1201
    Tronsen Ridge ORV Trail #1204
    Tronsen Meadow ORV Trail #1205
    Hereford Meadows Trail #1207
    Table Mountain Trail #1209
    Devils Gulch ORV Trail #1220
    Red Devil ORV Trail #1221
    Yellow Hill Trail #1222
    Red Hill ORV Trail #1223
    Red Hill Spur ORV Trail #1223.1
    County Line Trail #1226
    Gooseberry Flat Trail #1227
    Naneum Rim Trail #1234
    Way Creek Trail #1235
    Gnat Flat Trail #1236
    Goat Peak Trail #1304
    Jolly Mountain Trail #1307
    Domerie Peak Trail #1308
    Blowout Mountain Trail #1318
    Elk Trap Springs Trail #1319
    North Ridge Trail #1321
    Mount Clifty Trail #1321.1
    Greek Creek Basin Trail #1321.2
    Cle Elum Ridge Trail #1326
    Blazed Ridge Trail #1333
    Little Creek Basin Trail #1334
    Sasse Mountain Trail #1340
    Corral Creek Trail #1340.1
    Hoyt Trail #1347
    Manastash Lake Trail #1350
    Plantation Trail #1350.2
    Iron Bear Trail #1351
    West Fork Teanaway Trail #1353
    High Creek Trail #1354
    Ragan Spur Trail #1354.1
    Jolly Creek Trail #1355
    Robinson Gulch Trail #1357
    Taneum Ridge Trail #1363
    Teanaway Ridge Trail #1364
    Frost Mountain Trail #1366
    Frost Mountain Lookout Trail #1366.1
    South Fork Taneum Trail #1367
    Snowshoe Ridge Trail #1368
    Ice Water Loops Trail #1370
    Naneum Wilson Trail #1371
    Drop Creek Spur Trail #1371.1
    Howard Creek Trail #1372
    Old Ellensburg Trail #1373
    Grouse Spring Trail #1373.1
    Howard Creek Tie Trail #1373.2
    First Creek Trail #1374
    North Fork Taneum Trail #1377
    Lightning Point Trail #1377.2
    Fishhook Flat Trail #1378
    Miller Peak Trail #1379
    Naneum Creek Trail #1381
    Johnson Medra Trail #1383
    Jungle Creek Trail #1383.1
    Rocky Saddle Trail #1384
    Shoestring Lake Trail #1385
    Keenan Meadow Trail #1386
    South Fork Manastash Trail #1386.1
    Wilson Creek Trail #1387
    Manastash Ridge Trail #1388
    Upper Big Creek Trail #1388.2
    Naneum Meadows Trail #1389
    Boulder De Roux Trail #1392
    Deroux Spur Trail #1392.1
    Elsnor Mine Trail #1392.8
    Middle Fork Teanaway Trail #1393
    Mount Lillian Trail #1601
    Pyramid Peak Trail #941
    Legos Trail #942
    Bear Creek Trail #943
    Cub Creek Trail #943A
    Little Bear Trail #943B
    Middle Fork Trail #945
    South Fork Trail #946
    Mount Clifty Trail #947
    Quartz Mountain Trail #948
    Quartz Creek Trail #949
    Old Kaner Trail #950
    West Quartz Creek Loop Trail #952
    Indian Flat Trail #955
    Little Bald Mountain Trail #961
    Sand Creek Trail #963
    Lower Sand Creek Trail #963A
    Yellow Jacket Trail #963B
    Lost Creek Trail #964
    Milk Creek Trail #965
    Gold Creek Trail #966
    I've ridden some of these trails. So sweet and so good on a mountain bike. You want raw, remote and technical? Check them out. Takes some exploring and commitment, but very much worth it. Have run into motos on these trails as well and they were amazed and stoked we were riding on bikes.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickn View Post
    I've ridden some of these trails. So sweet and so good on a mountain bike. You want raw, remote and technical? Check them out. Takes some exploring and commitment, but very much worth it. Have run into motos on these trails as well and they were amazed and stoked we were riding on bikes.
    A lot of trails are mixed use for motos, bicycles, and hiking. I recommend attaching a bear bell to alert hikers (and of course animals). Fortunately you can hear gas motos coming. E-bikes not so much... But at least MAYBE they could hear your bear bell.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwestra2 View Post
    Just wanted to share some of my personal (not Evergreen's) thoughts on the topic...

    I think e-bikes are already having a negative impact on mtb advocacy. This topic came up at a Maloney Ridge (Skykomish) trail planning meeting last month. It was made clear that other agencies, user groups, enviro orgs and stewardship orgs would make the planning, permitting and funding process more difficult with e-bikes in the picture.
    And these are the 1.0 version. Already allowing roughly triple the power of a rider on their own (500W of battery + 250W of rider, and that migh be high for an average rider). Levo hacks are reportedly out there to easily bypass the speed cutoff. Given the bikes in downtown seattle that go uphill without pedaling, one has to think that adding a non pedal actuated throttle will be trivial. Haven't seen mention of ebikes yet in the hiker world, I imagine it's going to make their normal bike hate that much worse.


    Quote Originally Posted by mwestra2 View Post
    I also think they look fun, they can make trail work more efficient, they are awesome for disabled riders, and they are here to stay.

    So it's great to hear more than just the "F-You, they are motorized, keep off non-moto trails" vs. the "F-You, they are bikes, they should be allowed on all bike trails" positions on this thread. It's a tough problem for land managers and policy makers. No quick & easy solution.
    The thing is, they ARE motorized. That is not opinion, it is fact. All of the controversy is because some (manufacturers) want to pretend that a 'small assist' isn't a motor.
    Quote Originally Posted by mwestra2 View Post
    Why are we getting so many new trails now? Because we raised funds, organized volunteers, got permission and built most of them ourselves. Can we do that with e-bikes?
    And should Evergreen do that for ebikes, or are ebikes a new, separate user group, that can advocate for themselves, if they so choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by mwestra2 View Post
    Next summer I'd like to see us organize and do something with the 1000s of miles of moto trails we have in Washington. E-bikes can can make fixing up those more remote trails much easier. Below is a list of over 400 miles of trail in a 50 mile radius around Cle Elum. USFS GIS says all allow motorized use. Many are friggin awesome on a bike. Many were awesome and now are barely rideable. The Jolly Mt fire probably destroyed several of them.
    Riding in the Mad River area on Sunday, it occurred to me it was a perfect venue for ebikes. And yeah, there are some trails up there that are being purposefully ignored by the USFS that I'd hate to see disappears. Would love to see some work done out there, even better if in conjunction with moto groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by mwestra2 View Post
    And let's address King County -- where there isn't a single dirt trail on public land that allows motorized use. King County Parks wants to find opportunities. I personally don't have time to go looking.
    There really should be a Duthie for e-bike/motos. That could push me to get an Alta. I see pursuing it with KC as a moto group task IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by mwestra2 View Post
    Re: the OP, if we do keep on self-policing at places like Duthie and Tiger, we will keep having an impact. I feel strongly that we all have a responsibility to approach anyone riding the trails with an e-bike and tell them they aren't allowed. Tell them it's being worked on at the county and state levels. For now, these places are for non-motorized use only.

    Moto trails within a 50 mile radius of Cle Elum (according to USFS GIS database -- there are probably some errors in this list):

    (Long list of trails)
    If it's not powered solely by you, it's motorized.

    Worshiping at the Church of Singletrack since 1993.

  60. #60
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    Thanks, Mike! It's very important to hear what the land managers are actually saying, rather than speculation from the peanut gallery (of which I am a member).

    Quote Originally Posted by mwestra2 View Post
    Mission Ridge ORV Trail #1201
    Tronsen Ridge ORV Trail #1204
    Tronsen Meadow ORV Trail #1205
    Hereford Meadows Trail #1207
    Table Mountain Trail #1209
    Devils Gulch ORV Trail #1220
    Red Devil ORV Trail #1221
    Yellow Hill Trail #1222
    Red Hill ORV Trail #1223
    Red Hill Spur ORV Trail #1223.1
    County Line Trail #1226
    Gooseberry Flat Trail #1227
    Naneum Rim Trail #1234
    Way Creek Trail #1235
    Gnat Flat Trail #1236
    Goat Peak Trail #1304
    Jolly Mountain Trail #1307
    Domerie Peak Trail #1308
    Blowout Mountain Trail #1318
    Elk Trap Springs Trail #1319
    North Ridge Trail #1321
    Mount Clifty Trail #1321.1
    Greek Creek Basin Trail #1321.2
    Cle Elum Ridge Trail #1326
    Blazed Ridge Trail #1333
    Little Creek Basin Trail #1334
    Sasse Mountain Trail #1340
    Corral Creek Trail #1340.1
    Hoyt Trail #1347
    Manastash Lake Trail #1350
    Plantation Trail #1350.2
    Iron Bear Trail #1351
    West Fork Teanaway Trail #1353
    High Creek Trail #1354
    Ragan Spur Trail #1354.1
    Jolly Creek Trail #1355
    Robinson Gulch Trail #1357
    Taneum Ridge Trail #1363
    Teanaway Ridge Trail #1364
    Frost Mountain Trail #1366
    Frost Mountain Lookout Trail #1366.1
    South Fork Taneum Trail #1367
    Snowshoe Ridge Trail #1368
    Ice Water Loops Trail #1370
    Naneum Wilson Trail #1371
    Drop Creek Spur Trail #1371.1
    Howard Creek Trail #1372
    Old Ellensburg Trail #1373
    Grouse Spring Trail #1373.1
    Howard Creek Tie Trail #1373.2
    First Creek Trail #1374
    North Fork Taneum Trail #1377
    Lightning Point Trail #1377.2
    Fishhook Flat Trail #1378
    Miller Peak Trail #1379
    Naneum Creek Trail #1381
    Johnson Medra Trail #1383
    Jungle Creek Trail #1383.1
    Rocky Saddle Trail #1384
    Shoestring Lake Trail #1385
    Keenan Meadow Trail #1386
    South Fork Manastash Trail #1386.1
    Wilson Creek Trail #1387
    Manastash Ridge Trail #1388
    Upper Big Creek Trail #1388.2
    Naneum Meadows Trail #1389
    Boulder De Roux Trail #1392
    Deroux Spur Trail #1392.1
    Elsnor Mine Trail #1392.8
    Middle Fork Teanaway Trail #1393
    Mount Lillian Trail #1601
    Pyramid Peak Trail #941
    Legos Trail #942
    Bear Creek Trail #943
    Cub Creek Trail #943A
    Little Bear Trail #943B
    Middle Fork Trail #945
    South Fork Trail #946
    Mount Clifty Trail #947
    Quartz Mountain Trail #948
    Quartz Creek Trail #949
    Old Kaner Trail #950
    West Quartz Creek Loop Trail #952
    Indian Flat Trail #955
    Little Bald Mountain Trail #961
    Sand Creek Trail #963
    Lower Sand Creek Trail #963A
    Yellow Jacket Trail #963B
    Lost Creek Trail #964
    Milk Creek Trail #965
    Gold Creek Trail #966
    Jolly Mtn and the whole area's gonna be quite a mess after the fire, no? Let's get all these ebikers on the volunteer crews -- we're gonna need the help.

    And don't forget over in the Entiat/Chelan area -- Devil's Backbone/Pot Peak/25 Mile Creek. I've done a bunch of brushing over there solo on a bike...sucks! I'm planning to borrow an eMotoBicycle at the beginning of next season for maintenance up there.

    Also, there's gonna be a crap-ton of repair work on Safety Harbor/Uno Peak after the fires over there. That may not even be able to happen in the upcoming year from what I've heard.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwestra2 View Post
    Just wanted to share some of my personal (not Evergreen's) thoughts on the topic...

    So it's great to hear more than just the "F-You, they are motorized, keep off non-moto trails" vs. the "F-You, they are bikes, they should be allowed on all bike trails" positions on this thread. It's a tough problem for land managers and policy makers. No quick & easy solution.
    Awesome post Mike- thanks for bringing things into focus!

    Your list clarifies something I think is frequently getting missed here on MTBR: there are a lot of great trails where eBikes are already legal. Many of these trails have fallen into disrepair and few mountain bikers are willing to deal with the overgrowth, moto-tilled blown up conditions and long fire road climbs.

    The vehement, antagonistic anti-eBike hate might just end up provoking a reaction, namely eBikers just going rogue and riding wherever they damn well please.

    In my mind the solution is clear; we've got to accept and even encourage responsible use on those existing USFS trails. We've got to help inform that guy at Duthie about where he CAN ride- not just that he's not welcome at Duthie, Tiger, or in the wilderness- if we get there.

    The best way to get eBikes OFF mountain bike trails, is to help them get somewhere else!
    Last edited by FM; 10-03-2017 at 07:00 PM.

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    The people that buy weakbikes are not going to be any more interested than (the rhetorical) us in "overgrown, moto-tilled blown up condiition" trails either. Although there will be adoption by seasoned riders looking to make life easier who might be enticed, I just am not seeing the current crop of consumers being the type to drive 2 hours out to ride moto trails.

    Its a nice vision but I really don't see it - I think there will be two types of buyers - more beginner-ish and/or older mellow people who would like to just ride around a bit easier on smooth easy trails, and semi-shredders who want to do what they are doing now (Duthie, Tokul, Tiger, 410 shuttle, 27,38, Chuck & Galby) but on an e-bike.
    Neither one being the type to drive two hours to ride obscure tilled up moto trails out in the backcountry.

  63. #63
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    I think it really makes sense to get ahead of things here, policy-wise. It's entirely plausible that we'll be seeing ebikes in the sub-35 pound range in a few years, and that's going to make them extremely attractive to people and they're going to be showing up everywhere once that happens.

    Getting a handle on what will be allowed, and what won't is going to be key. Banning all of them is a solution, but is it realistic? Maybe. Maybe not.

    Semantic arguments ("It's a motorcycle!") don't help though. Is a Class 1 ebike really going to tear up the trails any more than a normal bike? I don't think it will, but then of course the challenge is keeping anything more than that off the trails once you've opened the door to them. In my opinion the biggest risk in letting a Class 1 ebike on the trails is the closing speed on a two way trail. One a one way trail, or a place with a long fireroad climb followed by a long descent, they probably would fit in just fine with normal bikes.

    Removing the emotion from the discussion is the first step. People think they are cheating, or motorcycles, or whatever and I understand that. But that attitude won't solve this problem, as noted by FM and Mike W.

  64. #64
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    Thanks for a breath of fresh common sense air, it's amazing the knee jerk reactions people in WA have to this issue sometimes. Having spent the last two years in Europe mountain biking where e-bikes are not only common but widely accepted, it's weird seeing so much backlash to this, much of it based on mis-information.

    E-bikes don't tear up the trails more than any other mtn bike (seen FAR worse from XC guys out training when the trails were too wet), and the VAST majority of people have no interest in disabling any sort of speed limiter, sheesh. Most were older or injuried riders just looking to get out in the woods like they used to, or wanting to keep up with their kids on longer rides. There's a common theme here of portraying e-bikes riders as hooligans or uninformed idiots who have no idea how their new toy is potentially impacting things like trail access. In my experience, it's the exact opposite and most riders go out of their way to be not only courteous, but also not speed or do other things that could negatively impact something they love to do or the perception of mountain biking in general.

    Just like "normal" bike riders.
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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarekith View Post
    E-bikes don't tear up the trails more than any other mtn bike
    I think you may be forgetting about fires. Very rarely, electric mopeds experience electrical faults and catch on fire. They burn for about 30 minutes and fire flaming shrapnel about 100 feet in all directions; sometimes they also explode. An explosion of this type recently burned down a bike shop in Germany.

    North shore hucking plus DIY electrical is going to have a predictable result. Recently teenagers with fireworks burned down a big chunk of Oregon, destroying homes and landscape. We're lucky no one died- this time. Calls for a national firework ban were quick to follow.

    I'm going to repost this comment the day an electric moped burns down a national forest. High capacity lithium polymer does not belong in dry trees. My prediction now: the Sierra Club will have a national ban on mountain bikes drafted and ready to introduce into Congress the day the forests burn. Not ebikes- bikes.

    Electric bike burns on the sand in Newport Beach - Daily Pilot

    EXCLUSIVE: Did electric bike battery spark a Yonkers house fire? | abc7ny.com

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/377772...under-his-bum/

    https://cyclingindustry.news/bike-sh...ge-in-hanover/

  66. #66
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    Wasn't there just a fire in CO last year caused by a spark from a mountain bike pedal striking a rock?

    "Edit" It was in CA:

    Mountain bike pedal sparks forest fire - BikeRadar USA

    I mean, there's all sort of things that anyone can do to trigger an unforeseen issue in the woods, regardless of the means or transportation.
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    Cell phones are carried by 100% (or nearly) of the people in the woods, whether they be hikers, bikers or equestrians. They pose a much bigger risk of fire based on usage and sheer numbers. Do you also think cell phones should be banned?

    Many hikers also carry flammable liquids in their backpacks and take them miles and miles into the wilderness, where they will deliberately set them on fire to "cook" food.

    How many forest fires have been started by hikers? I'm guessing quite a few. Probably quite a few from any activity that puts people in the woods.

    Point being that regardless of how they get there, humans in the wilderness increase risk of damage. The only way to keep human caused forest fires from occurring is to ban all human activity in those forests.

    In addition, there are a ton of trails open to ebikes right now (see Mike's list) that are pretty deep in the woods. Banning them from mtb trails (and they currently are not allowed on any mtb trails) won't reduce the fire risk you are talking about.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig S View Post
    Cell phones are carried by 100% (or nearly) of the people in the woods, whether they be hikers, bikers or equestrians. They pose a much bigger risk of fire based on usage and sheer numbers. Do you also think cell phones should be banned?

    Many hikers also carry flammable liquids in their backpacks and take them miles and miles into the wilderness, where they will deliberately set them on fire to "cook" food.

    How many forest fires have been started by hikers? I'm guessing quite a few. Probably quite a few from any activity that puts people in the woods.

    Point being that regardless of how they get there, humans in the wilderness increase risk of damage. The only way to keep human caused forest fires from occurring is to ban all human activity in those forests.

    In addition, there are a ton of trails open to ebikes right now (see Mike's list) that are pretty deep in the woods. Banning them from mtb trails (and they currently are not allowed on any mtb trails) won't reduce the fire risk you are talking about.
    The capacity of a cell phone battery (not lipo) cannot match the hundred foot radius of incendiary destruction put out by an electric motorcycle.

    You also have no incidence numbers to back up your claims.

    That said, reactionary laws are driven by narratives, not risks and facts. There's enough evidence that dramatic narratives are occurring now and will continue to occur.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarekith View Post
    Wasn't there just a fire in CO last year caused by a spark from a mountain bike pedal striking a rock?

    "Edit" It was in CA:

    Mountain bike pedal sparks forest fire - BikeRadar USA

    I mean, there's all sort of things that anyone can do to trigger an unforeseen issue in the woods, regardless of the means or transportation.
    NIST fire science lab has not yet confirmed the findings of the forest service; in years past, NIST has overturned decades of bad arson investigations by agencies around the country.

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2.../trial-by-fire

    Until NIST has reviewed, we know nothing.

  70. #70
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    Honest questions here:

    Me: "I hate to be the one to tell you this, but e-bikes are not allowed here at Duthie."

    E-Biker: "Why not?"

    What's an answer that would be compelling? Something more informative than "because the rules say so."

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWS View Post
    Honest questions here:

    Me: "I hate to be the one to tell you this, but e-bikes are not allowed here at Duthie."

    E-Biker: "Why not?"

    What's an answer that would be compelling? Something more informative than "because the rules say so."
    Electronic-bikes (bikes with electronic shifting) are allowed at duthie. Mopeds (motor+pedals) are not. If a moped rider asked this question, maybe some questions could be:

    They pose a massive fire hazard?
    It's against the law?
    None of these features were designed for uphill speeds of 20mph?
    None of these jumps or drops have been fireproofed against lithium battery explosions?
    None of these features were designed for 80 pound mopeds with overbuilt forks, tires, and drivetrains?
    None of this single track was designed to support motorized vehicles overtaking cyclists uphill?
    This park was paid for and built by cyclists, people who engage in outdoor fitness that involves human power, maybe go build your own park or ride at a supercross track?
    Mopeds are ammunition for anti cycling advocates?
    Mechanical doping is a form of cheating uncovered by cycling legend Greg lemond, the cycling community has to stand strong against mechanical doping?

    What would you say to someone who brought a snowmobile to a curling match? Someone willing to do this to others has already identified themselves as beyond reason.

    The only solution is law enforcement.

  72. #72
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    We should turn this overly emotional yelling match to a big opportunity. Let's find a away to improve things for everyone; for pedlecs and for those who want a human powered experience. I'm personally not a big fan of eMTB on existing human powered trails, especially in high use areas. But I think we need new multi-use trails that allow low-power pedelcs and we should rehab moto trails for them. Trails will also be fantastic for us as human powered MTBers.

    Honestly, I kind of recoil at the idea of eMTB, but when I dig deep I realize I probably want to ride them when I'm 70 or so. How's that for internal conflict? I wouldn't expect to be able to ride them everywhere.

    We've done great things by being supporters of multi-use. How is this form of multi-use that much different than the others that we've been successfully managing for years? Some users belong on some trails, no single use type belongs on all trails. It's always been this way. This is just another category added to the mix.

    So let's take a hard look at the Salmon le Sac area. There's amazing terrain up there, killer views, lots of moto trails that mostly suck and are rarely used. This should be an amazing opportunity to reroute a bunch of that rutted or fall-line crap and turn it into a real gem of a loop that works great for both pedelcs and MTBs.

    I really see more opportunity than I see threat in this whole thing. How about the eMTB manufacturers, who are smelling money, write us a huge check to rehab Salmon le Sac, and maybe build a new trail or two? I'm not talking $10k either, I'm talking real money since most trail costs upward of $25k/mile - some WAY more than that. Seriously.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by rollmonkey View Post
    Electronic-bikes (bikes with electronic shifting) are allowed at duthie. Mopeds (motor+pedals) are not. If a moped rider asked this question, maybe some questions could be:

    They pose a massive fire hazard?
    It's against the law?
    None of these features were designed for uphill speeds of 20mph?
    None of these jumps or drops have been fireproofed against lithium battery explosions?
    None of these features were designed for 80 pound mopeds with overbuilt forks, tires, and drivetrains?
    None of this single track was designed to support motorized vehicles overtaking cyclists uphill?
    This park was paid for and built by cyclists, people who engage in outdoor fitness that involves human power, maybe go build your own park or ride at a supercross track?
    Mopeds are ammunition for anti cycling advocates?
    Mechanical doping is a form of cheating uncovered by cycling legend Greg lemond, the cycling community has to stand strong against mechanical doping?

    What would you say to someone who brought a snowmobile to a curling match? Someone willing to do this to others has already identified themselves as beyond reason.

    The only solution is law enforcement.
    All of which is going to be sound utterly irrelevant to the average person riding one at the same speeds as good riders, passing nobody, hitting no jumps at all, and not on fire.

    I'm looking for ways to persuade them, not ways to get into nitpicky arguments.

  74. #74
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    I like what Juice says. I'm in.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig S View Post
    Cell phones are carried by 100% (or nearly) of the people in the woods, whether they be hikers, bikers or equestrians. They pose a much bigger risk of fire based on usage and sheer numbers. Do you also think cell phones should be banned?

    Many hikers also carry flammable liquids in their backpacks and take them miles and miles into the wilderness, where they will deliberately set them on fire to "cook" food.

    How many forest fires have been started by hikers? I'm guessing quite a few. Probably quite a few from any activity that puts people in the woods.

    Point being that regardless of how they get there, humans in the wilderness increase risk of damage. The only way to keep human caused forest fires from occurring is to ban all human activity in those forests.

    In addition, there are a ton of trails open to ebikes right now (see Mike's list) that are pretty deep in the woods. Banning them from mtb trails (and they currently are not allowed on any mtb trails) won't reduce the fire risk you are talking about.
    Given the much smaller amount of energy, I'd say the cell phones produce a much smaller risk. If one were to rate it on a risk-severity matrix, you would probably rate the occurrence rate as maybe a 2-3 out of 6. It's definitely not a 1, which is almost impossible, but it's not going to be up at a 4-6, something that happens almost routinely. Then, looking at the severity, a cell phone would probably give you a 2 or so, because there's not a lot of energy associated. Although they can and do spew molten lithium, it's not near the size of the stuff we see with laptop batteries, this would keep it in the low to moderate risk area of the matrix. Given the much bigger battery of the e-bike, you'd be looking at one hell of a raging inferno if that thing went up, likely burning so hot and furious that you can't even get close to try and stamp out what it's spawning. That would probably give you at least 3-4 for severity, if not a solid 4, out of 5, making it moderate-high or so on the matrix, roughly double the risk for the cell phone.

    Your argument of course is that there are more people will cell-phones, but as more people bring E-bikes out there, the risk is going to increase, because for one person bringing an E-bike vs. one person bringing a cell phone, the risk posed by the E-bike is significantly more, so it's not exactly a good argument to say since it's "ok" to use cell phones, which pose a fairly low risk, that it's ok to use E-bikes, that pose a moderate to high risk. It would only work if you somehow regulated the number of E-bikes, but since it only takes one to create a raging inferno in a dry forest, this would probably have to be regulated by location and local weather, which just becomes a logistical nightmare.

    Now, risk can be mitigated, but traditionally manufacturers and groups are highly resistant to this. Things such as manufacturer certifications for manufacturing/quality standards, enforcing these on the trails, etc. This is generally what regulating authorities do a lot of, figuring out ways to mitigate the risk, or having manufacturers and others present risk mitigation strategies to them. There is a lot that goes on behind the scenes here that most consumers and citizens are completely unaware of, except in cases where gross negligence by the manufacturers and sometimes the regulator contributes to some massive foul up, often caused by politicians and interests driven by business preventing the regulators from taking risk mitigation steps.
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    Juice, I'm 71 and I was never close to being as in shape as you are! But, my life is just fine without ebikes...

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFitz View Post
    Juice, I'm 71 and I was never close to being as in shape as you are! But, my life is just fine without ebikes...
    71! I thought you were about 60. I guess pedaling a bike around has proven to be a fountain of youth for you.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  78. #78
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    Thus far, nobody has given a cogent argument that e-bikes will not impact efforts to gain limited access to Wilderness areas.

    With looming threats of Wilderness designations closing hundreds of miles of trails across the west, e-bikes may wreck any efforts to maintain access to these areas or gain access to trails that have been closed already,.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

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    It's more accurate to say mountain biking "has proven to be a fountain of slowing down the surly onrush of decrepitude" for me. In some ways.

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    All the anti ebike crew here sound EXACTLY like the anti mountain bike hiking ladies. You guys reek of jealousy, it's rather unbecoming. How many cats do you have at home?

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    So what ? That is not an argument. Neither are insults. The clear dividing line is between human powered or not, and the clear penalty is losing good trail access. Although it does boggle my mind that those who have known cycling can be so blase about how these things will muddy its sublime beauty and purity.

  82. #82
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    So when are the e-bike riders going to get out and do some trailwork on the moto trails?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Was up at Duthie today with my daughter. Saw a guy on an ebike in the clearing. He didnít seem to be riding much, and it was a pretty obviously street-focused bike (smooth tires, full fenders with mud flaps) so I doubt there was much he would have been able to ride.

    I was going to talk to him and let him know ebikes arenít allowed but he disappeared before I could get a chance.

    It seems like a sign or two might be worth doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rollmonkey View Post
    Hey all, saw someone on a moped at Duthie today. Managed to get a picture- Evergreen was teaching a clinic so I asked them how to report it. Their advice was call 911. This didn't feel right - didn't feel like an emergency.
    I need to keep a number in my phone for this as it could happen again- needs to be the right agency with power of arrest and equipment to confiscate motorized vehicles.
    Is there a King County park police number dedicated for this? Any ideas?
    Thanks all,
    -rmClick image for larger version. 

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    Quit your whining and move on with your life.

  85. #85
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    If my E-bike is outlawed, I'll just hook this up to it:

    https://www.facebook.com/omgfactsoff...aLYrN9hkH_XPs4
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Quote Originally Posted by rollmonkey View Post
    Hey all, saw someone on a moped at Duthie today. Managed to get a picture- Evergreen was teaching a clinic so I asked them how to report it. Their advice was call 911. This didn't feel right - didn't feel like an emergency.
    I need to keep a number in my phone for this as it could happen again- needs to be the right agency with power of arrest and equipment to confiscate motorized vehicles.
    Is there a King County park police number dedicated for this? Any ideas?
    Thanks all,
    -rmClick image for larger version. 

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    A lot of fear mongering and whining in this post. Btw did you know if you're over 200lbs you are not welcome on any trail system in WA? Did you know that only bikes under 30lbs are allowed on trail systems in WA? Did you know that skinny cyclo-cross tires put ruts in the trails causing faster erosion from rainfall which never happens in WA. Oh and finally DH bikes made before 2004 are not allowed on trails either because they weigh to much and encourage users to go fast. All of that is as much BS as is the argument against eMTB on trails. Lets make it clear that a Canyon eMTB vs a Yeti SB 150 vs my heavy ass Iron Horse do the same amount of damage to the trail.

    Stop comparing mid drive "mopeds" to something like a 60-70lb HPC Revolution that has 4k-6k of watts in the hub motor and a 20ah battery. That in my opinion is an off-road vehicle and should be used on moto trails and dealers tell customers where they can and cant ride. If you saw a 70yr old person smashing at Duthie on an eMTB(not a throttle based high powered motor) are you going to call the police to have them arrested? Is Neal Strobel really going to be the reason we ban eMTBs in WA?

    If you hack a bosch motor and ever take it to a dealer and that dealer has actually been certified as a bosch technician they are supposed to hook it up to a computer and upgrade the firmware which will flag any tampering with the system and lock their bike down to 10mph and void any warranty. It seems the only REAL concern is getting your trails closed which has been happening before eMTB's have been around. Fires? Fires happen during charging, tampering with the batteries, home made batteries or cheap Chinese batteries. Maybe if everyone united (riders, shops, and grounds) and stopped bitching we could be successful.

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    KISS......like one poster said Post signs at the main entrance or trailheads. If people who are California grown canít read or understand.......jail😊

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    I donít like e-bikes. I am 64 and get up the mountain without one. Isnít why they have those urban bike trails? That being said, all just my opinion, i doubt the police would even get dispatched for this ďviolationĒ.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrokeBiker View Post
    A lot of fear mongering and whining in this post. Btw did you know if you're over 200lbs you are not welcome on any trail system in WA? Did you know that only bikes under 30lbs are allowed on trail systems in WA? Did you know that skinny cyclo-cross tires put ruts in the trails causing faster erosion from rainfall which never happens in WA. Oh and finally DH bikes made before 2004 are not allowed on trails either because they weigh to much and encourage users to go fast. All of that is as much BS as is the argument against eMTB on trails. Lets make it clear that a Canyon eMTB vs a Yeti SB 150 vs my heavy ass Iron Horse do the same amount of damage to the trail.

    Stop comparing mid drive "mopeds" to something like a 60-70lb HPC Revolution that has 4k-6k of watts in the hub motor and a 20ah battery. That in my opinion is an off-road vehicle and should be used on moto trails and dealers tell customers where they can and cant ride. If you saw a 70yr old person smashing at Duthie on an eMTB(not a throttle based high powered motor) are you going to call the police to have them arrested? Is Neal Strobel really going to be the reason we ban eMTBs in WA?

    If you hack a bosch motor and ever take it to a dealer and that dealer has actually been certified as a bosch technician they are supposed to hook it up to a computer and upgrade the firmware which will flag any tampering with the system and lock their bike down to 10mph and void any warranty. It seems the only REAL concern is getting your trails closed which has been happening before eMTB's have been around. Fires? Fires happen during charging, tampering with the batteries, home made batteries or cheap Chinese batteries. Maybe if everyone united (riders, shops, and grounds) and stopped bitching we could be successful.
    Wow, what a continuing load of hooey.

    Batteries only catch fire during charging? Ask the vapers whose ecigg has blown up in their pocket or the hoverboard users whose devices caught fire while they were riding them.

    And limit a bike to 10mph? Perhaps you meant limiting boost to 10mph, but you can't limit eMTBs to a speed. That's just stupid.

  90. #90
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    Does anyone remember when snowboards were NOT allowed at most ski areas? They were ruining the sport as I recall......

    E-bikes are today's snowboards. They're here and there ain't much that can be done about it except welcome them into the sport. The sooner that happens the sooner everyone can get along and enjoy their two wheels no matter how they choose to power them. And having ridden motorcycles for my entire life I would argue that an e-bike is nowhere near the same as a moped or a motorcycle. While it may "technically" be a motor vehicle, it doesn't run on gas, doesn't create emissions, hardly makes any noise at all, and is nearly impossible to roost one another with. ;-)

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by maico996 View Post
    Does anyone remember when snowboards were NOT allowed at most ski areas? They were ruining the sport as I recall......

    E-bikes are today's snowboards. They're here and there ain't much that can be done about it except welcome them into the sport. The sooner that happens the sooner everyone can get along and enjoy their two wheels no matter how they choose to power them. And having ridden motorcycles for my entire life I would argue that an e-bike is nowhere near the same as a moped or a motorcycle. While it may "technically" be a motor vehicle, it doesn't run on gas, doesn't create emissions, hardly makes any noise at all, and is nearly impossible to roost one another with. ;-)
    Neither skis nor snowboards have power sources other than user or gravity. A more apt comparision is mountain biking to hiking. Both human powered, both appropriate nonmotorized uses on nonmotorized trails. ebikes are motorized. There's no place more appropriate to draw a bright line yes/no test for nonmotorized trails than looking at whether a use involved power. ebikes do. We all can surely recognize that the 1.0 versions will be quickly improved, the limitors hacked, and throttles added.

    I'm all for lightweight, electric motorcycles. King County should be building a Duthie for them. But they're not mountain biking and they're not nonmotorized, and so far, they've conducted no advocacy to earn their right to trails.
    If it's not powered solely by you, it's motorized.

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  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACree View Post
    Neither skis nor snowboards have power sources other than user or gravity. A more apt comparision is mountain biking to hiking. Both human powered, both appropriate nonmotorized uses on nonmotorized trails. ebikes are motorized. There's no place more appropriate to draw a bright line yes/no test for nonmotorized trails than looking at whether a use involved power. ebikes do. We all can surely recognize that the 1.0 versions will be quickly improved, the limitors hacked, and throttles added.

    I'm all for lightweight, electric motorcycles. King County should be building a Duthie for them. But they're not mountain biking and they're not nonmotorized, and so far, they've conducted no advocacy to earn their right to trails.
    Quote Originally Posted by maico996 View Post
    Does anyone remember when snowboards were NOT allowed at most ski areas? They were ruining the sport as I recall......

    E-bikes are today's snowboards. They're here and there ain't much that can be done about it except welcome them into the sport. The sooner that happens the sooner everyone can get along and enjoy their two wheels no matter how they choose to power them. And having ridden motorcycles for my entire life I would argue that an e-bike is nowhere near the same as a moped or a motorcycle. While it may "technically" be a motor vehicle, it doesn't run on gas, doesn't create emissions, hardly makes any noise at all, and is nearly impossible to roost one another with. ;-)
    Agree a more akin comparison is if electric snowmobiles were allowed on the alpine hills.

    For what it is worth in the last ski season my wife, my daughter and myself have all been taken out by snowboards but have not had any run in with skiers. Feels like what I will be seeing as Ebikes become more prevalent on trails, maybe a bad analogy to use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    For what it is worth in the last ski season my wife, my daughter and myself have all been taken out by snowboards but have not had any run in with skiers. Feels like what I will be seeing as Ebikes become more prevalent on trails, maybe a bad analogy to use.
    I guess im having a tough time seeing the connection you are making.

    Are you saying that as the number of e-bike users rises, the number of e-bike vs pedal bike collisions will also rise? Which would be expected because... math. Or are you saying that you think there is something inherently dangerous about e-bikes in the same way you think there is something inherently dangerous about snowboards?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Californiagrown View Post
    I guess im having a tough time seeing the connection you are making.

    Are you saying that as the number of e-bike users rises, the number of e-bike vs pedal bike collisions will also rise? Which would be expected because... math. Or are you saying that you think there is something inherently dangerous about e-bikes in the same way you think there is something inherently dangerous about snowboards?
    I am just saying the people have different experiences with other users in a shared user environment. Saying that ebikes are like snowboarders mean for me and my family we will see more issues on the trails. Not math, but metaphor. I always think using analogies to show how something works or doesn't works is fraught with issues because while you might ski at a hill where snowboarders and skiers coexist happily, my experience this season is that 75% of my family has had accidents where we were hit from behind or out of side trails by snowboarders but not by any skiers and it is probably 2/3 skier to 1/3 snowboarder ratio at my hill.

    Using the snowboard/skier shared use analogy I would then expect to have similar experiences on trails where bikes and ebikes share the trail. Analogies never work for everyone. This is a good example of that. I would avoid lateral analogies if you want to win over anyone on shared use because not everyone will buy into the analogy as a good one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by maico996 View Post
    Does anyone remember when snowboards were NOT allowed at most ski areas? They were ruining the sport as I recall......

    E-bikes are today's snowboards. They're here and there ain't much that can be done about it except welcome them into the sport. The sooner that happens the sooner everyone can get along and enjoy their two wheels no matter how they choose to power them. And having ridden motorcycles for my entire life I would argue that an e-bike is nowhere near the same as a moped or a motorcycle. While it may "technically" be a motor vehicle, it doesn't run on gas, doesn't create emissions, hardly makes any noise at all, and is nearly impossible to roost one another with. ;-)
    As it currently stands, e-bikes are banned on non-motorized natural surface trails in the state. Have you contacted your legislator to change the law in your favor?

    I'm not going to do it on your behalf.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    As it currently stands, e-bikes are banned on non-motorized natural surface trails in the state. Have you contacted your legislator to change the law in your favor?

    I'm not going to do it on your behalf.
    No, I haven't. I ride a human-powered mtb.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    As it currently stands, e-bikes are banned on non-motorized natural surface trails in the state. Have you contacted your legislator to change the law in your favor?

    I'm not going to do it on your behalf.
    It's worth noting that the moto community is completely missing the boat on ebikes too. They could have an increased constituency for existing OHV trails, and potentially expand access given the lower noise level (I'd like to see a 'quiet OHV' designation). Instead, they're just enjoying the show as ebikes claim they're nonmotorized and those that understand words point out that they aren't.

    Meanwhile the GNCC motorcycle series (think MTB XC, but on motorcycles) gained Specialized as a presenting sponsor and added an ebike class.
    If it's not powered solely by you, it's motorized.

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  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by maico996 View Post
    Does anyone remember when snowboards were NOT allowed at most ski areas? They were ruining the sport as I recall......

    E-bikes are today's snowboards. They're here and there ain't much that can be done about it except welcome them into the sport. The sooner that happens the sooner everyone can get along and enjoy their two wheels no matter how they choose to power them. And having ridden motorcycles for my entire life I would argue that an e-bike is nowhere near the same as a moped or a motorcycle. While it may "technically" be a motor vehicle, it doesn't run on gas, doesn't create emissions, hardly makes any noise at all, and is nearly impossible to roost one another with. ;-)
    .
    Snowboarding isnít a good analogy. All the so called problems they created happened in ski resorts before they ever existed. People skiing out of control, people jumping off lifts that have come to a stop. People smoking in lift lines or on chairlifts. Collisions. Ducking ropes and going out of bounds. All this stuff happened at ski resorts back in the 60ís and 70ís way before the snowboard was ever invented. Couldnít stand hearing the whiningback in the late 80ís and early 90ís from 40-60 yr old self righteous skiers. They did the same crap when they were young.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maico996 View Post
    Does anyone remember when snowboards were NOT allowed at most ski areas? They were ruining the sport as I recall......

    E-bikes are today's snowboards. They're here and there ain't much that can be done about it except welcome them into the sport. The sooner that happens the sooner everyone can get along and enjoy their two wheels no matter how they choose to power them. And having ridden motorcycles for my entire life I would argue that an e-bike is nowhere near the same as a moped or a motorcycle. While it may "technically" be a motor vehicle, it doesn't run on gas, doesn't create emissions, hardly makes any noise at all, and is nearly impossible to roost one another with. ;-)
    You have to pay to ride at ski resorts, most are privately owned. They allowed snowboards because the sport was drying up and they needed the money.
    Not the same at all.



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    Careful what you ask for. Let's not kid ourselves, most of us regularly ride illegal trails. Last thing we need is more law enforcement in the mountains.

    I got passed by an old guy riding an e-bike up a fireroad yesterday at Chuckanut. He smiled, we said hi. End of story.

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