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  1. #1
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    Duthie poop

    So day before yesterday this guy who's building a trail skipped work, and for 12 hours re-planted and refoliated trail so it wouldn't get shut down. The only person to help him was Kevin Shmuck from Evergreen, and it happened to be his birthday.
    Somebody has been taking dumps on the trail too, so he had to clean up another pile.
    He tells people that tomorrow it may be shut down permanently and asks for help re-planting ferns, but nobody does. He's right, replanting and cleaning up was key in helping the trail to not get shut down.
    It was a nice sunny day and people were riding the unfinished trail, and some people even stopped and made suggestions on trail building. This is after he spent nearly 100 hours on this trail in the month of March alone, and working full time in a bike store.

    This was his story he told me yesterday, after i broke off work early, after i did a walk and talk to help save a race trail, a skills building trail, a trail for all skill levels, a trail that will not have one single puddle on it, a trail that will help fund maintenance for the entire park as years go by.

    If this guy passed by your project that you put hundreds of hours into, which cost you money out of your pocket, was on fire. You ask him to help throw a few buckets of water. He would give you 10 minutes to help, 1 hour of help, an entire day to help. That what he would do for you, because we are a community, and he believes that's what we "should" do, help each other so we can all benefit.

    This guy don't post on the internet, but i do, like it or not. If you like me or don't like me, this trail ain't really about him, it ain't about me, it's about all of us. And it ain't about having a trail to ride, it's about working to shift our efforts to make a strong community that is not afraid to volunteer, and is not oblivious. We are building it for the next generation of riders, the kids, your children. We don't need more trails as much as we need to develop our community to not be like the world around us, selfish, and self-absorbed. We mt. bike to escape all that bull$hit, don't we?

    Me personally i like seeing friends stop by and enjoy their rides on nice days. But i get tired of people thanking me. That's like i'm spending all my time for them, i'm not. i'm doing it for US. And thankfully nobody has been stupid enough to make suggestions to me on trail building out there.

    And here's the strange part.

    What we're doing is actually fun. We make it fun, even if we're real busy, and the people that have stepped up so far have made it enjoyable. We are not a clique, we are not a group, we are not representing anybody, and we all can't stand each other, we're all ugly and dirty, and we laugh at how ugly and dirty we are and throw dirt at each other because it makes us look better.

    We've got lots of work ahead of us before we're done with one of the best trails in Washington State, in one of the best parks in the world.

    Please don't $hit on our trail, come grace us with your great smile, we'll gladly put a shovel in your hand and show you how to dig a hole you can poop into.

    http://evergreenmtb.org/recreation/c...?event_id=9301

    http://evergreenmtb.org/recreation/c...?event_id=9183
    Last edited by ZombieSkook; 03-25-2011 at 09:09 AM.
    duuuuh BRAINS!!!

  2. #2
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    That's the sucky part of the emotional roller coaster of working out there we were talking about....

    Some plum smuggling egotistically superior kitted up goober passed us on his hard tail Kona twice Wednesday and looked upset that us and our shovels were in his way.

    Then, a bunch of kids came by and stopped and talked excitedly about all the cool stuff going on and actually helped a little.

    Pissed, then stoked, then pissed, then stoked....

    At this point I'd rather have another bucket of dirt moved for me than another half faked "thank you" too....

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieSkook
    And it ain't about having a trail to ride, it's about working to shift our efforts to make a strong community that is not afraid to volunteer, and is not oblivious. We are building it for the next generation of riders, the kids, your children. We don't need more trails as much as we need to develop our community to not be like the world around us, selfish, and self-absorbed. We mt. bike to escape all that bull$hit, don't we?

    What we're doing is actually fun. We make it fun, even if we're real busy, and the people that have stepped up so far have made it enjoyable. We are not a clique, we are not a group, we are not representing anybody, and we all can't stand each other, we're all ugly and dirty, and we laugh at how ugly and dirty we are and throw dirt at each other because it makes us look better.
    Tim, a few comments.

    1. "Somebody has been taking dumps on the trail too," Ewwwwwwwww, that is f'ing nasty!!!

    2. While the images you've been posting of the trail look great, you've got to put yourself in other people's (non-mtb'ers) shoes. A lot of people don't even consider that you might re-veg the area around the trail once work is done. All they see is a wide swath of disturbed dirt and flip out. I think "staying dark" for these projects is for the best until they're done.

    3. I would not leave the trail rideable until it is done. I'd put logs across it every 10 feet if that's what it takes. Nothing I can stand more than working on something and having someone ride down it. In fact, I shut down existing trails if we're working on them.

    4. Whether part of a clique, a group or whatever....I assume you signed up for this project understanding you'd be on the hook for making it happen? Was your expectation that volunteers would come out of the wood work to help? If so, I think your expectations (of people's selflessness) are totally out of line. Sad, I know.....but true. I know there's been a fair bit of debate about a 3rd HLC line and those guys are really weighing the time they have to dedicate at Duthie vs. other projects on their plates. FWIW, none of that discussion revolves around how many volunteers are going to be helping them build.

    5. "one of the best trails in Washington State". That's a bold claim dude, but certainly something worth striving for. I like to think that every trail I build is better than the one before it, but I know I've got a lot to learn and every trail I build has flaws.

    Cheers,
    EB

  4. #4
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    It never ends...

    It does strike me that you all volunteered to build these trails. Yet, you come off as if somebody else should be building it for you? It's your trail. You have assumed the responsibility of getting it done. Everyone out there knows the game. Building trail is a TON of work. There is no denying that. But, it also has amazing rewards that far outweigh the sweat it takes to complete a trail. Putting people down for suggesting trail ideas or if they don't help is wrong. If I read this thread I wouldn't want to help you either. It just doesn't come off as very constructive or nice. You may have bitten off more than you can chew and are regretting it now. That's nobody's fault but yours.
    On a positive note. The trail will be great. People are stoked to see your progress. Some days you'll get help. Most days not. Time to buck up and do what it takes. The reward will be great. Maybe now is a good time to remind you that you have been given the PRIVILEGE of building a trail in one of the nation's premier MTB parks. Is that not enough???? I mean, if you want to quit. I may know some people that would be happy to finish it for you? We'll call it the "Deuce Slalom" or "Charmin Chicane's".
    Also, EB is right. We (HLC) just signed up to do a trail that is almost the exact length as yours. Not as wide, but an intermediate jump trail that will help bridge some of the gaps in trail difficulty out there. On top of that, AJ at GHY, as well as Kyle and Nolan are building two trails of equal length right next to ours. It is a daunting amount of work. But the plus is that we get more awesome trails out there that will serve as great skillbuilders. Seeing the smiles on peoples faces after they just shredded one of your creations is all that it takes to keep most of the builders I know happy. I know that's all I need.
    Last edited by Largextracheese; 03-25-2011 at 02:54 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieSkook
    But i get tired of people thanking me. That's like i'm spending all my time for them, i'm not. i'm doing it for US.

    And thankfully nobody has been stupid enough to make suggestions to me on trail building out there.
    LAME.

    Get over yourself dude.
    Taking it easy for all you sinners.

  6. #6
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    Most people are lazy, that's just the way it is.
    There's a big difference between ripping and skidding. Those who skid don't know how to ride.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Largextracheese
    Seeing the smiles on peoples faces after they just shredded one of your creations is all that it takes to keep most of the builders I know happy. I know that's all I need.
    LXC - Ha ha, I love you you big bear!
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieSkook
    Please don't $hit on our trail, come grace us with your great smile, we'll gladly put a shovel in your hand and show you how to dig a hole you can poop into.
    I like to poop on this thread instead!

    I keed, I keed!

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  9. #9
    I just got goth served!
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    Find ***** piled upon your hard work is bound to make anyone grumpy.
    insert witty comment here

  10. #10
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    The original post sounds like a plea for help to me. Maybe the tone could have been more positive but I can understand the frustration when people don't help. There's nothing wrong with asking more people to become involved and share ownership of a trail though. A lot of people won't participate when the trail isn't one their going to ride or get excited about, but that shouldn't be an issue here. I would definitely help if I lived closer!

  11. #11
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    Dude, you are presumably an adult, building a trail for bikes in the woods mainly ridden by kids, teenagers and other miscreants. Lighten up. Its a hobby. In the grand scheme of things, who cares about duthie or anything else? Its just for fun.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo
    That's the sucky part of the emotional roller coaster of working out there we were talking about....

    Some plum smuggling egotistically superior kitted up goober passed us on his hard tail Kona twice Wednesday and looked upset that us and our shovels were in his way.

    Then, a bunch of kids came by and stopped and talked excitedly about all the cool stuff going on and actually helped a little.

    Pissed, then stoked, then pissed, then stoked....

    At this point I'd rather have another bucket of dirt moved for me than another half faked "thank you" too....
    No actually i've been pretty happy with the help i've gotten so far. This post is written about one particular instance. The story is about one day, when a difference can be made most people's reaction was to complain, and not to take initiative and help.

    Do i think that more help could come? Sure, but that would not change even if we were seeing numbers that EBextreme gets up in Galby.
    duuuuh BRAINS!!!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme
    Tim, a few comments.

    1. "Somebody has been taking dumps on the trail too," Ewwwwwwwww, that is f'ing nasty!!!

    2. While the images you've been posting of the trail look great, you've got to put yourself in other people's (non-mtb'ers) shoes. A lot of people don't even consider that you might re-veg the area around the trail once work is done. All they see is a wide swath of disturbed dirt and flip out. I think "staying dark" for these projects is for the best until they're done.

    3. I would not leave the trail rideable until it is done. I'd put logs across it every 10 feet if that's what it takes. Nothing I can stand more than working on something and having someone ride down it. In fact, I shut down existing trails if we're working on them.

    4. Whether part of a clique, a group or whatever....I assume you signed up for this project understanding you'd be on the hook for making it happen? Was your expectation that volunteers would come out of the wood work to help? If so, I think your expectations (of people's selflessness) are totally out of line. Sad, I know.....but true. I know there's been a fair bit of debate about a 3rd HLC line and those guys are really weighing the time they have to dedicate at Duthie vs. other projects on their plates. FWIW, none of that discussion revolves around how many volunteers are going to be helping them build.

    5. "one of the best trails in Washington State". That's a bold claim dude, but certainly something worth striving for. I like to think that every trail I build is better than the one before it, but I know I've got a lot to learn and every trail I build has flaws.

    Cheers,
    EB
    i value your sentiment probably more than anyones on this board when it comes to understanding trailwork.

    That being said let's see if i can answer points.

    1.i know dude, we thought we were done with poo after Colonnade, at least we're not finding hypodermic needles.

    2. No comment.

    3. Yah we are thinking of closing the trail to help promote more building and less riding on the trail. We'll see if that makes a difference.

    4. Let's not derail my comments to make it seem like it was specifically for "my" project, or rather the trail i'm working on right now. This comment is on a broader scope, and i think me, and you and all volunteers who are "out in front" or most active, could make a difference in unifying a front to motivate next generations of riders. i know you do, i know i try, if we provide a singular purpose or a cause that helps motivate i think that will help. Help to where peoples first insticts are action instead of words.

    5. i stand by my comment. For a plethora of reasons, right trail, right place, right time more than anything else really though if that helps you think i'm trying to be King Turd of Poop Hill. Read it how ya want.
    duuuuh BRAINS!!!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Largextracheese
    It does strike me that you all volunteered to build these trails. Yet, you come off as if somebody else should be building it for you? It's your trail. You have assumed the responsibility of getting it done. Everyone out there knows the game. Building trail is a TON of work. There is no denying that. But, it also has amazing rewards that far outweigh the sweat it takes to complete a trail. Putting people down for suggesting trail ideas or if they don't help is wrong. If I read this thread I wouldn't want to help you either. It just doesn't come off as very constructive or nice. You may have bitten off more than you can chew and are regretting it now. That's nobody's fault but yours.
    On a positive note. The trail will be great. People are stoked to see your progress. Some days you'll get help. Most days not. Time to buck up and do what it takes. The reward will be great. Maybe now is a good time to remind you that you have been given the PRIVILEGE of building a trail in one of the nation's premier MTB parks. Is that not enough???? I mean, if you want to quit. I may know some people that would be happy to finish it for you? We'll call it the "Deuce Slalom" or "Charmin Chicane's".
    Also, EB is right. We (HLC) just signed up to do a trail that is almost the exact length as yours. Not as wide, but an intermediate jump trail that will help bridge some of the gaps in trail difficulty out there. On top of that, AJ at GHY, as well as Kyle and Nolan are building two trails of equal length right next to ours. It is a daunting amount of work. But the plus is that we get more awesome trails out there that will serve as great skillbuilders. Seeing the smiles on peoples faces after they just shredded one of your creations is all that it takes to keep most of the builders I know happy. I know that's all I need.
    haha i agree with many of your points but i think you misread alot of what i say, so some of what you project for me is misrepresenting. Which also means alot of other people misread too. And you know that's ok... i can't cover every point and defend all innacuracies, and comment where we see eye to eye, i don't think people would read the pages it would take anyways.
    duuuuh BRAINS!!!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jubilee
    LAME.

    Get over yourself dude.
    i am totally dude.

    Beeleeeve it!
    duuuuh BRAINS!!!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_schuldt
    Most people are lazy, that's just the way it is.
    Not entirely true.

    i think people can be inspired. If there was a singular positive message derived from the proper leaders in our bike community, we would have a better opportunity to groom an atmosphere that is more pro-active and motivated.

    Yes the post could have been more positive, and i fully expect the real leaders representing mt. biking in our area to continue to give the ra ra ra. But i hold no title, and i honestly don't try to offend. We are all of us not perfect, but i would like to see our community try to raise the bar and become better.

    i have awesome positive stories about kids coming out and stoked about the trail and stopping their rides and helping dig. i'm not here to spoon feed people stuff they just want to hear all the time, and i'm not here to say it's all bad either.

    The story is just a story, i hope it makes people motivated to help. Don't HAVE to be me or Wad, or Duthie. At the very least i hope it get's people thinking.
    Last edited by ZombieSkook; 03-25-2011 at 08:44 PM.
    duuuuh BRAINS!!!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoustacheCashStash
    I like to poop on this thread instead!

    I keed, I keed!

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    That is a great trail you're building!




    FOR ME TO POOP ON!
    duuuuh BRAINS!!!

  18. #18
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    Well that's what happens when you leave the TP out where anyone can find it. People think they can just use it.

    But seriously though... that's just nasty. Anyone who shits on a trail needs to have his nose rubbed in it.
    Last edited by NWS; 03-26-2011 at 01:53 AM.

  19. #19
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    I'd clean the poop up for you ALL.DAY. if you'd go to political/trail/access meetings for me. Seriously.
    "...Some local fiend had built it with his own three hands..."

  20. #20
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    I think one of the problems is most people are not experienced with trail work and are intimidated to start, for worry that they will somehow mess something up and make it so that section of trail has to be re-done. I know the first time I stopped to help with some digging out at Duthie I had never done trail work before, and had no clue what I was doing when someone told me to "make the trail drain better" and handed me a shovel. I found myself more valuable when it came to carrying wood to different trails that were having new features added to the trails, because its hard to **** up carrying wood. I know this is why work parties are a good way to get involved, because with a large group effort its a good way to learn some of the ins and outs, or at least get assigned to a basic task at first, but when people ride up on you on a random day working on the trail and say "thanks," it's probably because they don't know what else they can do! That, and some people are more apt to help out by donating to the park than picking up a shovel. That's what my old man does, whereas I'm more likely to stop and help move some stuff cause I'm broke! You don't know that that guy riding by saying "thanks" hasn't made a generous donation.

  21. #21
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    I wonder if a big sign would help... "HELP WANTED. NO EXPERIENCE NEEDED."

    I can attest that anyone can do this. I had no clue at all when I first showed up for a work party, but I got clear instructions so it all worked out.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExCactus
    I think one of the problems is most people are not experienced with trail work and are intimidated to start, for worry that they will somehow mess something up and make it so that section of trail has to be re-done. I know the first time I stopped to help with some digging out at Duthie I had never done trail work before, and had no clue what I was doing when someone told me to "make the trail drain better" and handed me a shovel. I found myself more valuable when it came to carrying wood to different trails that were having new features added to the trails, because its hard to **** up carrying wood. I know this is why work parties are a good way to get involved, because with a large group effort its a good way to learn some of the ins and outs, or at least get assigned to a basic task at first, but when people ride up on you on a random day working on the trail and say "thanks," it's probably because they don't know what else they can do! That, and some people are more apt to help out by donating to the park than picking up a shovel. That's what my old man does, whereas I'm more likely to stop and help move some stuff cause I'm broke! You don't know that that guy riding by saying "thanks" hasn't made a generous donation.
    No you are spot on, on many of your final points. i understand all of that, and totally agree and understand that many people give what they can, when they can, and sometimes it's unseen and many times totally key.
    Again it's one day and one story among many other better ones. And this isn't meant to be read to say anything you have done should be discounted. It's a story riddled with some commentary. It's a status report that should not have people wanting to throw the baby out with the bath water. But it's a story that is true and stands on it's own merits, and should be there to let people know how things are from another perspective.

    And as far as trail building. Everybody at that park makes mistakes, nobody is immune to that. Part of the building process is to go back and re-do and re-do and re-do again until it's good. (in fact what we consider finished, still need a few more runs of "tweaking", and every trail after getting rid in needs a look over for tweaking again) Get with us on April 10 and i will answer any question you have, the Evergreen work parties i post are not really about getting trail done so much as trying to have fun and to teach if anyone wants to learn the finer points.

    The key is to keep diggin until it clicks, then you will reach a higher state of nirvana...
    duuuuh BRAINS!!!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWS
    Well that's what happens when you leave the TP out where anyone can find it. People think they can just use it.

    But seriously though... that's just nasty. Anyone who shits on a trail needs to have his nose rubbed in it.
    This reminds me of when i was working down at the Nade, someone was pissing on a column. Right in a dry spot where the rain will hardly ever get to, to wash it away. i'm like dude, there are tree's right over there, c'mon!. He got scared he didn't realize i was there, it was kinda funny.
    duuuuh BRAINS!!!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_schuldt
    Most people are lazy, that's just the way it is.
    Pretty negative Dave.

    Most people I know work their ass off and would love to have time to be in the woods all day. People aren't lazy if they don't share the Dreams of the Trail Builder and would rather spend their time elsewhere...or only have time for a quick ride.

  25. #25
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    Word. I hear on the news sometimes that there are a lot of lazy people out there, but I don't know any of them myself...

    Your point and what ExCactus said: money.
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  26. #26
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    I agree with Dave. Most people ARE lazy. This said, I too need to get out and back on the trailbuilding wagon. Been busy with building my business, and have had too many excuses, with excuses being the operative word.
    Today I will gladly share my experience and advice, for there are no sweeter words than "I told you so."

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Navigator
    Pretty negative Dave.

    Most people I know work their ass off and would love to have time to be in the woods all day. People aren't lazy if they don't share the Dreams of the Trail Builder and would rather spend their time elsewhere...or only have time for a quick ride.
    It's not a dream, it's the vision of the land managers and why they're doing the park, and it's "supposed" to be the goal of mt. bike advocates.

    i thought since we're talking" time" i'd share the time i have with most of the names just initialized. i know i've missed people and hours on the way, but they wanted us to keep a rough tally to track hours on this project.

    And yes March was ridiculous in numbers, but the hours spiked and they had to be done in order to save alot of time down the road.


    Sept.
    T 20
    M 20
    E 4

    44

    Oct.
    T 50
    M 20
    E 8
    A 8
    J 8
    M 6
    D 2

    102

    Nov.
    T 50
    M 30
    M 20
    R 8
    R 8
    S 6
    B 8

    130

    Dec.
    T 50
    M 34
    M 24
    P 30
    R 8
    R 8
    J 8
    E 8
    G 4
    J 4
    S 2

    180

    Jan.
    T 20
    M 8
    M 8
    P 8
    R 4

    Jan.
    T 30
    M 25
    P 12
    I 5
    R 12
    J 2
    J 4

    129

    Feb.
    T 47
    M 42 (40 on gate)
    P 20
    M 20
    N 12
    R 8
    J 4

    231

    before Mar. 6
    T 16
    M 9 (8 on gate)
    P 9
    M 4
    P 6
    R 8
    C 3
    J 3
    P 5
    K 5
    D 6

    Mar. 7 on
    T 61
    M 60
    N 14
    M 16
    R 5
    P 5
    D 5
    D 2
    C 4

    253

    There have been others who've dropped their bike and helped scratch for a while, maybe add another 10 hours with that. Kevin and Mike have dropped about 20 hours each on the trail in some form way or fashion give or take. We "try" not to borrow them too much since they're busy helping the entire park.
    Then a crazy fun Eagle Scout project yesterday, there were so many kids and parents there, it was really fun, but i didn't have any time to really wrap my head around the number to tally them up, and it was sort of a separate project as it was a connector trail, to the staging area.

    But anyway for people who are into stats/numbers this might be interesting and might provide a bit more of a backdrop into the discussion.

    i know there are alot of people who dump alot of time who really get frustrated, and go negative. i'm human, i'm not the exception.

    There are a few key players when i first got into BBTC and they were pretty instrumental in progressing the sport/recreation forward, but they now are way stepped back, and seem very very content. That's sounds like a wonderful project i could invest alot of effort towards.

    But in the meantime, if it were such that it didn't take such sacrifice by so very few, key people would probably not burn out and fade away. The load would be carried by more hands. That's the goal. And you wouldn't really get stories like this.

    Again i'm surprised when people read into criticism like this, interpreting it to mean things are downright broken. No that's a concrete train of thought.

    But it's goes back to the simple truth that if there was more wind on the backs of people out in front, then things will be exponentially better. You like what you ride now? We could have it soooo much better than what we have now, and that's whats frustrating for the many people who share that vision. But for now i'm pretty tempered and enjoy what i get, and i'm determined to make this trail build a fun experience overall despite the surrounding topics, and politics.

    Over one thousand volunteer hours on this trail not halfway done quite yet, so yah.. we'll see ya on the trails, whether you like it or not.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by ZombieSkook; 03-27-2011 at 08:07 AM.
    duuuuh BRAINS!!!

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    First, thanks for all the hours. Really looking forward to your trail and I have put in a couple hours on it. I understand you were just talking about one day but obviously that's evolved into a discussion of volunteers at Duthie/other projects.

    Second, if there is one thing I learned during Duthie Phase 1, very few people are trail builders that dream of building great trails...it's just not in them. Most are NOT builders in any way and will never come out; and many just want to help out once in a while.

    In general and IMO, positivity works when it comes to volunteering, and disappointment/disapproval/rants turn people off. No need to ever DIS the "many" because they don't show up to work parties (not saying you are but it happens enough). Mike/Kevin never shame people into going to work parties. Yet the entire park was built by thousands of volunteer hours. IMO, low volunteer hours are always the fault of the trail builder. From your tally above, looks like you're doing just fine. Well done.

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    Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the rant. I too have ridden past trail work and said "thanks" and gotten a bit of negative vibe in return. Just because I ain't stopping my ride to help doesn't mean I haven't put in hours or haven't donated $$$, and either way I certainly don't owe anyone a dossier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Navigator
    First, thanks for all the hours. Really looking forward to your trail and I have put in a couple hours on it. I understand you were just talking about one day but obviously that's evolved into a discussion of volunteers at Duthie/other projects.

    Second, if there is one thing I learned during Duthie Phase 1, very few people are trail builders that dream of building great trails...it's just not in them. Most are NOT builders in any way and will never come out; and many just want to help out once in a while.

    In general and IMO, positivity works when it comes to volunteering, and disappointment/disapproval/rants turn people off. No need to ever DIS the "many" because they don't show up to work parties (not saying you are but it happens enough). Mike/Kevin never shame people into going to work parties. Yet the entire park was built by thousands of volunteer hours. IMO, low volunteer hours are always the fault of the trail builder. From your tally above, looks like you're doing just fine. Well done.
    ok i don't know you by your handle.

    i understand that folk volunteer a few times and that's it. i do see there are people that choose not to volunteer for mt. biking, or volunteer at anything. But i do think they are missing the boat as far as strengthening our community be it mt. biking or in a broad scope of the community in general.

    So the topic i say moves on to motivation. You bring up Kevin and Mike like they are all sunshine and roses and vomiting rainbows while we're out in the park.

    They can speak for themselves on the side but in public we DO need THEM to always tow the positive line.

    But look at Tiger Mt. and what is happening there versus the expectations of what DNR had for our community. They want WTA numbers, they're not getting them, so maybe grand ideas don't get done because there isn't the support to rally forth.

    There may be some variance of truth that the volunteer turnout can be from a trail builder, but there is even more truth to the fact that the leadership is lacking to provide the motivation necessary to create a pool large enough to tap from. One thing i see is we are doing a great job in creating new mt. bikers, but many of our leaders are so inundated with work that there is no time to think about how to sell our new generation of riders that volunteering is something that will pay dividends.

    And the dividends aren't necessarily the surface stuff either, like more trails, cooler trails etc. But the notion that our sport get's people exercise, it grows community togertherness, it helps nurture true environmental conscience, it give people more opportunity to gain the fortitude we gain from the challenges of mt. biking and advocacy outreach.

    i say things like this, and many of you roll your eyes, but they are true. When people help all those things are covered, and you can walk away knowing you made a deposit towards that.

    To me if people could see that more clearly then the motivation would be such that people wouldn't think of it as such a "chore". People would get the mindset, of that what we do is a great idea, and i actually feel like i walked away and got something out of it.

    But in order to get there, we have to be honest with ourselves. Trail building when you are a core participant is difficult because you are planning for lots of things. But when you break it down and just show up to a work party, trail building is simple, might not be easy, but neither is mt. biking... Trail work is easy in the regard that you can't really break anything. It's just dirt, you can't **** up dirt, unless you poop in it... Anybody can do trail work if they "WANT" to do it. (Trail building/trail maintenance all being the same in this conversation)

    i know for a fact we can do better, but at a certain point it IS all up to every individual to say, yah i want to help. Because we all know there is not a lack of need for help. i'm sorry but i feel your stance is one that makes up excuses, and you do have a relatively good sense of the reality of what exists now. Which again if we look at our current status (overall) we're buzzing along at a fair clip. But put a gun to the head of any of the mt. bike volunteers on the ground level and ask them if they think we're close to what potentially could be out there? i would venture a guess than many of them would say we are not really close to firing off on all cylinders. Just look at the membership numbers...

    And so frustration ensues and manifests itself into a perpetual debate on why things aren't super awesome, and the myriad of people complain.

    i think you are on correct on the negative part if that's all that's coming out of it, but i think the pure positive with the fear of offending is equally counterproductive. But it's not the place of Evergreen to take that stance, no i think that ball is in the hands of the individual who is free to speak their mind.

    For those out there in recovery world there is a saying. Don't give up before the miracle happens. i understand there are a couple of young volunteers working with Evergreen now, just getting started from Americorp. They to me represent a new movement, perhaps they can provide a new stance on our future that will get us in a better place.

    Yah that's it, let's dump all of our crud onto the youngsters.
    duuuuh BRAINS!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SAL9000
    Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the rant. I too have ridden past trail work and said "thanks" and gotten a bit of negative vibe in return. Just because I ain't stopping my ride to help doesn't mean I haven't put in hours or haven't donated $$$, and either way I certainly don't owe anyone a dossier.
    It's comments like this which make me wonder if closing down the park during construction would be helpful.

    Then you wouldn't have to get that negative vibe after you say thanks. Problem solved.
    duuuuh BRAINS!!!

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    Ok i posted way more than i thought in here, and i think we're entering the beating the dead horse zone.

    But i was just thinking if you transplanted our group to Moab. Maybe i'm wrong, but how much trail work is necessary for a place that hardly see's rain and the trail tread is made up of most if not all rock.

    Just saw a Moab pic on the Evergreen front page and that was a funny thought that popped in my head. Go move that rock, ok we're done for the day...
    duuuuh BRAINS!!!

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieSkook
    Ok i posted way more than i thought in here, and i think we're entering the beating the dead horse zone.
    True dat...

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieSkook
    Maybe i'm wrong, but how much trail work is necessary for a place that hardly see's rain and the trail tread is made up of most if not all rock.
    Haha, I know you're just kidding about that, but it still gives me another opportunity to boost some pics I took on a ride in my home town last year:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=659707

    I guess what they may save in "maintenance" (given the entire trail is essentially one long armored singletrack) they pay for in initial build cost.
    --
    -bp

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieSkook
    It's comments like this which make me wonder if closing down the park during construction would be helpful.

    Then you wouldn't have to get that negative vibe after you say thanks. Problem solved.
    I'd suggest taking the advice of others. IMO you're a bit over invested in this. Enjoy it. Do your best. Be positive. Recruit others. Realize not everyone will share your passion for advocacy and volunteering for a multitude of reasons and some will be downright Cretins. In a "roll with it" context I think you'll be much much happier.

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    crap

    What a painful thread to read. I didn't quite get it, when somebody took a dump on the trail, was it human? Is this an isolated incident or has it happened a few times? 33 emails later, I'm assuming it is a person, but maybe it was someone's offleash dog. Maybe an angry bird and this whole thing just got blown out of proportion.

    Whatever the case, yuck. I remember one day interrupting my descent on suntop five times to flick horse poop off the trail. Pissed me off, but consoled myself that the next few riders would have a clean ride. I would do it again. I suppose I could have done it on the climb, but worse than interrupting a screaming descent, I hate to interrupt a climb when in the rhythmn.

    BP's thread is a lot more positive. I'd rather be encouraged to pack a beer or airliner bottle of tequila as a way of thanks than to be told not to offer verbal thanks. You might not want to hear it, but thanks all for your efforts at duthie. From the person who stops for a half hour on their ride to those unheralded builders who do it just because, you are all rock stars.

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    ..and

    The thing that needs to be added to this is that people need not avoid the trail for fear of being snarled at for saying thanks. There are many other folks that are putting a ton of work into this trail that aren't getting recognized. They don't share the same sentiment or attitude of the messages above. They are some personal friends of mine and are some really nice folks. I see them and their cars there many evenings and weekends. Pip, Nolan, Miguel, and Thunder deserve major props out there as well as many others. Great job guys! THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Hard to read all of this but I am going to have to side with extralrgchz and EB for the most part.

    It sucks someone is pooping on your trail, but the I think you brought the latest drama/threat on yourself by posting all those pictures, not sure why your complaining to everyone else that you had to go out and transplant ferns to try and save it.

    I was there the day before that and Mike, Kevin, Nolan, and another person transplanted a lot already. To me the post seamed a bit off, I dont think anyone is going to be inspired by it to join your work partys after reading this, quite the opposite.

    It is, and will be a awesome trail when its done, and I will give you props for the amount of work you have done on it, as well as those that were named above and those unnamed as well.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Largextracheese
    The thing that needs to be added to this is that people need not avoid the trail for fear of being snarled at for saying thanks. There are many other folks that are putting a ton of work into this trail that aren't getting recognized. They don't share the same sentiment or attitude of the messages above. They are some personal friends of mine and are some really nice folks. I see them and their cars there many evenings and weekends. Pip, Nolan, Miguel, and Thunder deserve major props out there as well as many others. Great job guys! THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    First of all i never snarl at anyone.
    Second YOU are bringing up the points and inferring that i don't give respect to these guys. That's false.
    Can you name other people who have showed up multiple times that aren't YOUR friends that have given time, and maybe i could give major "props" but then i'd get in trouble because i didn't ask them to plaster their names on the webbe without permission.

    You always look to derail anything i say and slant it in a direction to put me in a bad light. Just in case you're not aware that i don't notice it, you're such a cool kid.

    But all the Drinky Crows have been great, and Thunder is an awesome doggy. As is Juniper.

    Quote Originally Posted by DirtDDiggler
    Hard to read all of this but I am going to have to side with extralrgchz and EB for the most part.

    It sucks someone is pooping on your trail, but the I think you brought the latest drama/threat on yourself by posting all those pictures, not sure why your complaining to everyone else that you had to go out and transplant ferns to try and save it.

    I was there the day before that and Mike, Kevin, Nolan, and another person transplanted a lot already. To me the post seamed a bit off, I dont think anyone is going to be inspired by it to join your work partys after reading this, quite the opposite.

    It is, and will be a awesome trail when its done, and I will give you props for the amount of work you have done on it, as well as those that were named above and those unnamed as well.
    Yah man, but i think there is a bit of a bigger picture here.
    The posts and pics were to get people stoked, just like DuthieMTB.com and all the pictures and reports you guys post on FB. i ASKED if i should take stuff down prior to this and the judgement was not. Beyond that though, i shouldn't have HAD to go dark in the first place, right? i could explain more, next time you see me out there come by and i'll share if you're interested.
    But yah right now things are looking better, and part of the reason we closed the trail is to re-plant alot more, Spring is here, things are going to look alot better.


    Quote Originally Posted by SAL9000
    I'd suggest taking the advice of others. IMO you're a bit over invested in this. Enjoy it. Do your best. Be positive. Recruit others. Realize not everyone will share your passion for advocacy and volunteering for a multitude of reasons and some will be downright Cretins. In a "roll with it" context I think you'll be much much happier.
    i absolutely understand what you're saying. For me it's been a right/wrong time/place situation, depending on your outlook.
    But yah your suggestion is the path i've been following, and i've been working on downsizing my involvement, for what it's worth. Alot of projects i've been involved with are of recent are collaborations, and lots of things are where the baton will be handed over.

    Anyways i USED to like sharing on this site, but it's become more and more like the Duthie Fox News Channel. You say something and people twist words and get all sideways.

    Just sayin...
    duuuuh BRAINS!!!

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieSkook
    Anyways i USED to like sharing on this site, but it's become more and more like the Duthie Fox News Channel. You say something and people twist words and get all sideways.
    Just sayin...
    It just goes to show that if you write/say a million words about "something", someone will take issue with something you wrote/said, not the "thing" itself.

    Interesting that this entire thread is about communication, not trails.

    As they say, "the best art speaks for itself".

  41. #41
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    WAAAYYY too much drama going on at duthie.......

    almost feels like being back in 7th grade or on the set of Jersey Shore.

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    FB is a great way to post pics/vids because you can limit it to friends only

    We ALL have a lot invested in this park, and I understand your frustrations.

    -see ya on the trails
    Last edited by DirtDDiggler; 04-01-2011 at 02:55 AM.

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    Lotsa good and lame in this thread. I've met a lot of riders and a lot of builders over the last 5 years, so gotta share my 2 shekels...

    Most builders want to see riders riding their work... that's why they do it. So if you feel like saying "Thank You", do it -- it's almost always appreciated. If you feel like throwing your bike down and digging for a few minutes, do it -- that is always appreciated.

    But please don't feel guilted out of riding a trail because trail work is going on! If you feel like riding and it's not closed, then ride it... and walk through the work zone.

    The drama is mostly in this thread! There always will be problems to deal with on any project. Definitely more when joining in on a big public project vs. building a private/secret trail for yourself and a few of your friends off in the woods somewhere. So don't let all the biotchin' on the interwebs deter you from coming out to Duthie to help us git'r'done!

    Huge thanks to ZombieSkook, all of the lead builders and all of the volunteers at Duthie! Not just for all the awesome work, but for dealing with problems when they arise... however you choose to deal with them. We all know Skooks likes to write lotsa schtuff -- and that's cool... as long as it's constructive in the end and the job gets done. And I know the BanWad dual slalom trail is going to be schiiiick when it's done!

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