With a Dremel Tool, anything is possible.- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    With a Dremel Tool, anything is possible.

    Here's what happens when the Old Judy XC with 1" steer tube needs replacement. Take note of the almost robotic precision with which the Dremel tool was used to pare the crown to molecular thin-ness before using the Impact Device to complete the removal process....

    Behold the disassembly process
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  2. #2
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    Preparing the donor fork
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  3. #3
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    Impact process complete
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    New boots, and....
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  5. #5
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    Sweet!!
    Each bicycle owned exponentially increases the probability that none is working correctly.

  6. #6
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    Ready to roll for the next 15 years.....
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    It's been discussed before...but it's really nice to actually see it done!

    Nice work!
    -eric-

    http://www.rumpfy.com
    Wanted: NDS Suntour XC Pro Microdrive 175mm Crank Arm.

  8. #8
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    I got carried away and did another one with a 2003 SID race, raw aluminum color on my bontrager SS. Looks so much like the Judy XC you can hardly notice.....

    I'll post ride pics for that one.

  9. #9
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    Hey Eric,
    great meeting you at Keyesville. I hope we can ride together some time.

    my regular email is [email protected] I lost yours. Keep in touch.

    Peter (Joss, Lang and Jenny too...)

  10. #10

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    awesome! glad to see it worked for you.

  11. #11
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    We the people ...

    interesting thread
    I'm about to do this very process. which dremel part did you use? carbon cutting disk? I've started cutting a 01 judy sl (coil/oil v.reliable) & its ripping through the disk!

    any other tips?

  12. #12
    Carsten
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    Quote Originally Posted by scant
    interesting thread
    I'm about to do this very process. which dremel part did you use? carbon cutting disk? I've started cutting a 01 judy sl (coil/oil v.reliable) & its ripping through the disk!

    any other tips?
    i used a metal saw blade to make a vertical cut into the clamp. before i wrapped a thick layer of tape around the stanchion below the crown to not scratch it or cut into it. and i did not cut through the crown down to the stanchion but stopped cutting just before i reached the stanchions. then i used a screw driver to widen the cut and break it up completely. no damage to the stanchions and i could easily pull off the crown. i did that to mount newer Judy lowers into a bolted Klein MC2 specific Judy crown. perfect result!

    Carsten

  13. #13
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    can we see the whole bike...?

    looks pretty nice there...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by scant
    interesting thread
    I'm about to do this very process. which dremel part did you use? carbon cutting disk? I've started cutting a 01 judy sl (coil/oil v.reliable) & its ripping through the disk!

    any other tips?

    I used the composite cutting wheel to make thin cuts as deep as possible without cutting the tubes, then I widened them on one side so I could get purchase with a cold chisel and used a deadblow hammer to crack the final bit of crown material away from the stanchion tubes. Kinda like opening a door. GO VERY SLOWLY. Let the tool do the cutting, and do not let it get too hot or it will get all boogered up on the cutting wheel. Make sure you have a decent sized piece of the crown off before you try to remove the tubes, and you can rock them out slowly without damage.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lutarious
    I used the composite cutting wheel to make thin cuts as deep as possible without cutting the tubes, then I widened them on one side so I could get purchase with a cold chisel and used a deadblow hammer to crack the final bit of crown material away from the stanchion tubes. Kinda like opening a door. GO VERY SLOWLY. Let the tool do the cutting, and do not let it get too hot or it will get all boogered up on the cutting wheel. Make sure you have a decent sized piece of the crown off before you try to remove the tubes, and you can rock them out slowly without damage.
    Nice work! So once you had that little portion of the crown removed the stanchions were free? Id have hard time destroying that nice forged crown! Wouldnt it have been easier to fix whatever was wrong with the Judy? I do think the SID has much better suspension action than a stock Judy though.

    What about the stanchion length? The SID crown has more drop than a Judy crown, does this affect your tire clearance? Is that an 80mm SID? How much clearance between the top of the tire and crown?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fillet-brazed
    Nice work! So once you had that little portion of the crown removed the stanchions were free? Id have hard time destroying that nice forged crown! Wouldnt it have been easier to fix whatever was wrong with the Judy? I do think the SID has much better suspension action than a stock Judy though.

    What about the stanchion length? The SID crown has more drop than a Judy crown, does this affect your tire clearance? Is that an 80mm SID? How much clearance between the top of the tire and crown?
    Yes, once the section was missing, the tubes were easy to remove. They aren't bonded, they are pressed intothe crown, which has a small shoulder near the top so I couldn/t press them back out to save the crown.

    The Judy was old and tired. The only rescue might have been an Englund Air set up for my 100 pound Girlfriend, but I go the SID for so little money, I figured why not use the one piece lower.

    As for Stanchion length, it is really close. I used the old crown because it is 1 inch, but also because the lower rise kept the ride height about the same. If it is too raked out, we can do the flip and make it 63mm instead of 80, but it seems really good now with a slightly higher negative air pressure which reduces the travel.

    More tuning tips would be appreciated, since I have 3 SIDs in the house where once there were none...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lutarious
    Hey Eric,
    great meeting you at Keyesville. I hope we can ride together some time.

    my regular email is [email protected] I lost yours. Keep in touch.

    Peter (Joss, Lang and Jenny too...)
    If you make it to Idaho look me up (laffeaux at yahoo.com).

    I'll be in the bay area a couple of times this next summer. I plan on riding while I'm there (likely in the south bay) with Rumpfy. I'll send an email and let you know where and when.

    Otherwise I'll see you at Keyesville next year!!
    Each bicycle owned exponentially increases the probability that none is working correctly.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumpfy
    It's been discussed before...but it's really nice to actually see it done!

    Nice work!
    Nice job man, it's definitely not for the faint hearted.

    Hey ER, do you still have that three page instruction I wrote ya on how to do this & press the legs into a new non-bolted crown? A buddy of mine wants to do it again, and I don't want to write all that crap over if I don't have to.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by laffeaux
    If you make it to Idaho look me up (laffeaux at yahoo.com).

    I'll be in the bay area a couple of times this next summer. I plan on riding while I'm there (likely in the south bay) with Rumpfy. I'll send an email and let you know where and when.

    Otherwise I'll see you at Keyesville next year!!
    Yeah, there are a handful of us vintage guys that are local. When Laffeaux comes to town, I'm sure there will be some post made for a 'NorCal Vintage Ride" while he's here.

    Plus the Retro Gathering at the Sea Otter...
    -eric-

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingsuperpetis
    Nice job man, it's definitely not for the faint hearted.

    Hey ER, do you still have that three page instruction I wrote ya on how to do this & press the legs into a new non-bolted crown? A buddy of mine wants to do it again, and I don't want to write all that crap over if I don't have to.
    Ooh...I'll take a look but I might not have it anymore...
    -eric-

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  21. #21
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    reflection

    better watch some of those reflections one of them looks a bit funny

  22. #22
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    Hey, post some pics of you Bontrager SS when you get a chance. I'd like to see the frame as well as the fork setup.

    jw

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutarious
    I got carried away and did another one with a 2003 SID race, raw aluminum color on my bontrager SS. Looks so much like the Judy XC you can hardly notice.....

    I'll post ride pics for that one.
    -

    "And single-speeding 29ers are mountain biking's equivalent of Scientologists..." - Captain Dondo

  23. #23
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    SID lowers

    Nice work ... side question: has anyone had experience with adding a 2nd bushing set to those SID lowers Particularly where to get them)? I have a set with the stock single bushing and there is a bit of play. Feel free to PM me also.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingsuperpetis

    Hey ER, do you still have that three page instruction I wrote ya on how to do this & press the legs into a new non-bolted crown? A buddy of mine wants to do it again, and I don't want to write all that crap over if I don't have to.
    If these instructions indicate how to swap legs in and out of non bolted judy/sid crowns I'd be very interested to see them.

  25. #25
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    Which forks will work

    I have a 96 Judy fork for my Klein.

    Which current forks will fit the older crown?

    Do all rockshox have the same spread and stanchion size?

    Pinguwin

  26. #26
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    cute

    Nice reflection.

  27. #27
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    Judy and SIDs are the only forks with the same center to center and stanchion size. Some of the newer Judy lowers may have interference issues with the older bolt on crowns at full compression. But all the SIDs should work for a swap.

    There's some photos/info about one of my Franken forks here: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=98047

    jw


    Quote Originally Posted by pinguwin
    Which current forks will fit the older crown?

    Do all rockshox have the same spread and stanchion size?

    Pinguwin
    -

    "And single-speeding 29ers are mountain biking's equivalent of Scientologists..." - Captain Dondo

  28. #28
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    I don't mean to be a dick or anything, but next time if you use the macro mode (indicated by a picture of a little flower) those close-ups will come out nice and clear.

  29. #29
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    Ahem, since you replied to my post from today and not Lutarious' original post/photos from March, I'll assume you're being a d!ck.

    jw


    Quote Originally Posted by @dam
    I don't mean to be a dick or anything, but next time if you use the macro mode (indicated by a picture of a little flower) those close-ups will come out nice and clear.
    -

    "And single-speeding 29ers are mountain biking's equivalent of Scientologists..." - Captain Dondo

  30. #30
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    What he said.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyOne
    Ahem, since you replied to my post from today and not Lutarious' original post/photos from March, I'll assume you're being a d!ck.

    jw
    And if you were responding to my original post, I would have to agree with Grumpy.
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  31. #31
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    You guys have me pegged.

    (BTW- I view the forum in linear mode instead of threaded mode, so my reply was to the photographer)

  32. #32
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    What?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmdrpiffle
    Nice reflection.

    What is it you see in the reflections? I have looked and looked. Am I missing something?
    "Welcome to my underground lair...."

  33. #33
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    Damn Pete... Neat trick. Unfortunately I'm going to hafta go shopping on ebay now. My race lite is dying for a better fork.

  34. #34
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    Hi Peter funny to find you around here, at least in the way i did...

    so,,, I start looking at the tread and then i see the super tinny fatchance and ........wait a minute I know that Bike

    exelent work, as ussual, very inovative and pracmatic....
    we need to go riding soon, you know were to find me.



    Ricardo


    did you ever show this people your Big A^^ tatto on your back.... !?!?!?

    is so freaking cool

  35. #35
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    So a Duke wont work Huh?

    So a duke w/ lockout wont work w/ a 97 Judy XC crown?

  36. #36
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    No. Only another Judy or a SID.

    jw


    Quote Originally Posted by Pimpride
    So a duke w/ lockout wont work w/ a 97 Judy XC crown?
    -

    "And single-speeding 29ers are mountain biking's equivalent of Scientologists..." - Captain Dondo

  37. #37
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    My way of cutting it out

    I've cut the crowns away from from two Sids and one way was easier than the other. The first time I made two nearly complete cuts through, this requires two close cuts to the stanchions before cracking the last little bit and if you make the cut less than 180 degrees apart, still might hold the stanchion in the crown. There is twice as many places to make an error as compared to the way I did the next crown.

    The second time on the advice of someone who knows more than I in all things mechanical, suggested that I make a cut about 3/4's the way through on one side and only real deep on the other, placing the front of the crown on the work surface for stability on the deeper cut. Only making one deep but reduces the chances of nicking the stanchions. It also provided a stress riser for when you are prying the deep cut apart and reduced the depth of cut I had to make.

    Cracking the last bit was much easier with the partial cut in place and was simple to pry apart far enough that I could get the threaded parts on the top, which are a shade wider than the stanchion, past them with only a single cut. Also, I used reinforced dremel tool cutting wheels. They have a lattice work of supports on them, which worked better than the regular cutting wheels. As some of the others, I put lots of duct tape on the stanchion in just in case I went in a direction I didn't intend.

    This method is quicker, more reliable, and 3x easier than the first way I did it. It was also very helpful to have a second person to say, "Little deeper on this side...careful now...". Should I do it again, there is no doubt which way it will be. It's probably best for my ego if you don't ask how I know about nicking a stanchion.

    'Guin
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    Last edited by pinguwin; 08-01-2006 at 10:35 AM.

  38. #38
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    Here's a related but along the same lines question. What is involved in cryofitting a steerer tube? I have access to liquid nitrogen at work so if a steerer can be removed by cooling and another inserted in the same manner, this would seem to open up a world of fork choices. I am tempted to look for a busted fork to see what I can do with it.

    Secondly, would any of the newer marzocchis work with the older bolt on crwns like has been done here with the rock shox?

    cheers

  39. #39
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    Great thread. I'm about to try this myself. I have just bought a used SID Team hoping that it would work in my Judy equipped Klein. It's nice to see that it's been done successfully.

  40. #40
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    Well, I got my used SID team on Monday, and the leg removal went without a hitch, but I made the mistake of removing the top cap on the oil side of the fork, and now I seem to have messed things up, and can't get the fork to work. Now I'm going to have to get the thing rebuilt... ARG!

    To anyone trying this, I recommend leaving the fork fully assembled when cutting out the legs. You have to be a little more careful when working around the fittings on the top of the fork, but it's worth it.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkle
    I recommend leaving the fork fully assembled when cutting out the legs.
    Actually, don't the top caps have a hex-nut on them that sticks out beyond the legs slightly? This would require you to remove the internals before putting in the crown. Correct?

    I seem to remember this being the case and having to pry the Sid crown somewhat apart to get them out.

    'Guin

  42. #42
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    Not sure about other forks, but on the SID, the top cap has the same diameter as the tube, so you can slide it out/in without having to remove it.

  43. #43
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    cool old parts being used again, thats what its all about!

  44. #44
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    A Different Method...

    I used to do similar Judy "conversions" back in the mid-90's when Rock Shox went from bolted crowns to press-fit crowns. The press-fit crowns got so creaky, I was forced to come up with a method to convert to the older crowns (which you can lube if they start to creak).

    I did it a bit different. It worked great and I think, for anyone that may be considering this, will lessen the chances of damage to the sliders.

    First, a single cut per leg is all that's needed. As someone else mentioned, using a small hack-saw blade holder (or just carefully holding a loose blade) start a cut into the crown from the top down using slow, deliberate strokes. A piece of duct tape (also mentioned above) wrapped around the slider tube just below the crown will indicate if you are too close with the front of the blade as evidenced by contact. By using a hack-saw blade, you have better control and consistancy over the depth of the cut.

    Do not cut the crown all the way through. Leave a paper-thin piece of aluminum.

    Repeat this on the other side of the fork, again making a single cut.

    Once each "one cut per leg": is complete--and here's the cool part--grab the lower part of each leg and flex them towards each other. If you made the correct depth cut, each side will "pop" through and the legs slide right out. If not, take a tiny bit more metal off each cut and repeat.
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  45. #45
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    Sorry to dig up such an old thread, but I recently acquired a '96 Klein Adroit with the press-fit crown Judy SL's. Is it possible to swap them with a SID? I'm thinking no, but I thought I'd ask...

  46. #46
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    Love DIY's...well done.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by filegiant
    I used to do similar Judy "conversions" back in the mid-90's when Rock Shox went from bolted crowns to press-fit crowns. The press-fit crowns got so creaky, I was forced to come up with a method to convert to the older crowns (which you can lube if they start to creak).

    I did it a bit different. It worked great and I think, for anyone that may be considering this, will lessen the chances of damage to the sliders.

    First, a single cut per leg is all that's needed. As someone else mentioned, using a small hack-saw blade holder (or just carefully holding a loose blade) start a cut into the crown from the top down using slow, deliberate strokes. A piece of duct tape (also mentioned above) wrapped around the slider tube just below the crown will indicate if you are too close with the front of the blade as evidenced by contact. By using a hack-saw blade, you have better control and consistancy over the depth of the cut.

    Do not cut the crown all the way through. Leave a paper-thin piece of aluminum.

    Repeat this on the other side of the fork, again making a single cut.

    Once each "one cut per leg": is complete--and here's the cool part--grab the lower part of each leg and flex them towards each other. If you made the correct depth cut, each side will "pop" through and the legs slide right out. If not, take a tiny bit more metal off each cut and repeat.
    Funny thing is I did almost this exact way with a hack saw and plenty of time. the 98 sid low profile crown I had took maybe 25 minutes. I guess I did it the right way without even knowing. Its simple easy to do guys just make sure to cover any exposed metal you dont want to mar up, my saw slipped several times.

  48. #48
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    To answer your question...

    No, you'll need a bolt on crown if you want to do a SID swap. The upper stanchions (inner legs) are different from the SID to the Judy. And pressing one set of stanchions out and another into your crown isn't feasible.

    jw


    Quote Originally Posted by bryanus
    Sorry to dig up such an old thread, but I recently acquired a '96 Klein Adroit with the press-fit crown Judy SL's. Is it possible to swap them with a SID? I'm thinking no, but I thought I'd ask...
    -

    "And single-speeding 29ers are mountain biking's equivalent of Scientologists..." - Captain Dondo

  49. #49
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    Has anyone tried to use a sid carbon race.. I have a bolt on judy, and an 80 mm sid carbon race I would like to take the sid to put on the judy crown.

    Steve

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lutarious
    Ready to roll for the next 15 years.....
    the bottom edge of the sid crown appears to sit much higher than the older judy crowns in relation to the top of the stantions, which makes me think that the sid crown has more tire clearance... do these judy crowns still clear the tire when bottomed out on sid lowers? is it necessary to limit the travel of the sid?

  51. #51
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    Do you have a cracked World Cup upper assembly to use as a doner? I think the aluminium under the carbon may be roughed up or under cut so the carbon will bite in. Just a guess on my part... Not sure if it would cause a problem when section is bolted up in the crown. -jy

  52. #52
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    I've had no issues with tire clearance, even with the SID completely compressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by s4gobabygo
    the bottom edge of the sid crown appears to sit much higher than the older judy crowns in relation to the top of the stantions, which makes me think that the sid crown has more tire clearance... do these judy crowns still clear the tire when bottomed out on sid lowers? is it necessary to limit the travel of the sid?

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by s4gobabygo
    the bottom edge of the sid crown appears to sit much higher than the older judy crowns in relation to the top of the stantions, which makes me think that the sid crown has more tire clearance... do these judy crowns still clear the tire when bottomed out on sid lowers? is it necessary to limit the travel of the sid?
    I did a side by side of a Judy crown, an early (2000) SID crown and a later (2004 or 2005) SID crown and there wasn't really a ton of difference in clearance. The early SID crown had the most clearance, but the later crown was nearly the same as a Judy.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryanus
    I've had no issues with tire clearance, even with the SID completely compressed.
    Quote Originally Posted by IF52
    I did a side by side of a Judy crown, an early (2000) SID crown and a later (2004 or 2005) SID crown and there wasn't really a ton of difference in clearance. The early SID crown had the most clearance, but the later crown was nearly the same as a Judy.
    thanks guys. i've been thinking about using a later (2003-2004) sid with an older judy crown, and painting the lowers to look like a 96 judy. then i'd have a modern sid that would still look right on the vrc ride.

  55. #55
    mtbr member
    Reputation: smittylube's Avatar
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    Mar 2009
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    Has anyone used the carbon version for a doner ? I picked up a sweet CF steer sid dual air- 80 mm. has the same tubes and center to center so it will fit, but it looks like possibly epoxy used at the crown.. that would make it difficult or impossible to split it w/o damaging the stanchions?

    Steve

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