Trio Of Darling Hill Landowners Won’t Allow KTA Mountain Bikers - Page 2- Mtbr.com
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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by radair View Post
    Without Current Use rules, large parcels would become cut up small parcels and you can say good bye to green space. You can’t have it both ways bro.
    Current use is a farse. It is no longer part of a thriving forest products industry. A tiny percentage of the land enrolled is being managed for high quality timber. It's tax evasion and fire wood once every 10 years. Listen to the state foresters talk about it. In Vermont, 70 percent of property tax is subsidized. Current use was intended to be a temporary fix until property taxes could be figured out. Instead, it has been patched together, altered and added on to, but it no longer severs the purpose of feeding high quality timber into an industry that provides jobs in production of forest products. Not saying get rid of it, but I am saying it was part of a system where the labor has been off-shored, and the benefits of good jobs resulting from high quality timber coming in off private land are gone....so fix it.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    The solution is to be honest about industrial-level tourism. As Scott O. said, and I have been for a longer than anyone cares to listen , supply v demand. Demand is high....to the point of degradation on many level. We need to make it much more expensive to visit here, and much more affordable to live here. Residents, not customers, that's what we need big picture.

    CAP the number of tourists. Make it expensive to bring your car into the state. Require the purchase of back country insurance for everyone recreating in Vermont on open to the public trail systems or back country as part of an annual fishing license, with out-of-state visitors paying significantly more, and use those funds to support trail access and up-keep issues.

    VMBA et al begging Vermont and the Fed Gubment for grants is beyond stupid. The state is broke. The economics for recreational tourism are so cherry-picked and manipulated it's basically a scam.

    It's a simple solution, but no one wants to confront the entrenched social elite self-promoters blowing sunshine up everyone's ass about how great everything is, throwing words like community and health around when really it's about jobs for a few people, and ego stroking for those longing to be on some panel at some Back Country Commodification forum, or have their footy shown at the annual Vermont Mountain Bike circle jerk party. Cancel Culture folks. Created consent through carefully cultivated Social Media networks and Marketing Material disguised as journalism in Vt Sports, and local TV and Radio news.
    I think most folks in Southern Vemont, Barre and Rutland would say the same things about people who move to VT from CT/MA/NY/NJ. It's all the same, just different layers, nothing new here. I'm also not sure how this is an actual issue in comparison to structural level problems in VT. It's sad, frustrating, and dumb, but sort of a skin-level issue compared to generational issues.

  3. #203
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    Reading the PB article about this, and the comments from people local to the area, I understand why the landowners feel the way they do. Yeesh.
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  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaparzo View Post
    I think most folks in Southern Vemont, Barre and Rutland would say the same things about people who move to VT from CT/MA/NY/NJ. It's all the same, just different layers, nothing new here. I'm also not sure how this is an actual issue in comparison to structural level problems in VT. It's sad, frustrating, and dumb, but sort of a skin-level issue compared to generational issues.
    It's not fair or accurate to lump every transplant together. Personally, I came here for education, my wife got her second degree here. We "Put in" a tremendous amount to anything we take from. At the same time I watch Vermonters pushing these agendas of commodification.

    If someone moves to Warren with wealth, then votes against everything that's going to raise their taxes that doesn't help the community. If I move to a town like Northfield and start a business, renovate an old house, and volunteer hundreds of hours a year for development of community recreational resources, and at the school in the after school program getting local kids outside to play, I'm an asset to my community.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Reading the PB article about this, and the comments from people local to the area, I understand why the landowners feel the way they do. Yeesh.
    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/cyclis...om-trails.html

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    It's not fair or accurate to lump every transplant together. Personally, I came here for education, my wife got her second degree here. We "Put in" a tremendous amount to anything we take from. At the same time I watch Vermonters pushing these agendas of commodification.

    If someone moves to Warren with wealth, then votes against everything that's going to raise their taxes that doesn't help the community. If I move to a town like Northfield and start a business, renovate an old house, and volunteer hundreds of hours a year for development of community recreational resources, and at the school in the after school program getting local kids outside to play, I'm an asset to my community.
    Agreed, just like a lot of "tourists" are economic (or even cultural!) assets to the communities they frequent. I don't disagree with the motivation behind your ideas about how to generate revenue from them or avoid issues like this one, but I also think you have to apply that across/up-down the board if you want to fix real problems at a state level, which are not disconnected to the problems here.

    Want to move to VT or buy a 2nd home, maybe the state should apply similar ideas/regulations/taxes to those that want to do that. You can't really predict how people are going to behave so while you can applaud good residence after the fact, it might be worth capitalizing on the appeal of moving to (relatively small) areas of VT, and thus control the ill effects of those that do not behave well or simply live off their dividends/interest checks.

  7. #207
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    Is this titled 'Nearer, My God, to Thee'?

    Sign of the times. A wannabe Legal pundit offering unsolicited advice within user-generated content here and now MTB 'King of All Media' PB wanting to have done the clickbait thing.
    Makes it appear real difficult to take a Bike Ride.
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  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaparzo View Post
    Agreed, just like a lot of "tourists" are economic (or even cultural!) assets to the communities they frequent. I don't disagree with the motivation behind your ideas about how to generate revenue from them or avoid issues like this one, but I also think you have to apply that across/up-down the board if you want to fix real problems at a state level, which are not disconnected to the problems here.

    Want to move to VT or buy a 2nd home, maybe the state should apply similar ideas/regulations/taxes to those that want to do that. You can't really predict how people are going to behave so while you can applaud good residence after the fact, it might be worth capitalizing on the appeal of moving to (relatively small) areas of VT, and thus control the ill effects of those that do not behave well or simply live off their dividends/interest checks.
    Tourism services can provide one basic component of an economy. We have yet to see an honest evaluation of it's impacts. Instead we disassociate many clear impacts, like transportation and waste management for examples, and over-state potential economic impact to the point of deception. We can't have a real conversation about the future without honestly evaluating the pluses and minuses.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Tourism services can provide one basic component of an economy. We have yet to see an honest evaluation of it's impacts. Instead we disassociate many clear impacts, like transportation and waste management for examples, and over-state potential economic impact to the point of deception. We can't have a real conversation about the future without honestly evaluating the pluses and minuses.
    Good points and relevant to many communities trying to integrate tourism on a sustainable level, if that's even possible past a certain point. Tourism is one component of the issue at hand, however, and the evaluation noted would be very interesting if it also included a subjective analysis of other socioeconomic activity in VT that has affected the state for the last generation or two.

    I can't imagine you'd have the level of tourism you have today without the "gentrification" that has taken place over a much longer period of time than KT has even existed.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaparzo View Post
    ... the evaluation noted would be very interesting if it also included a subjective analysis of other socioeconomic activity in VT that has affected the state for the last generation or two.
    Examples? Not a challenge. Genuine interest.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Examples?
    I'll bring VHS of 'The Green Mile' to the meeting on the 11th.

    You bring the Popcorn Dave.
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  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Reading the PB article about this, and the comments from people local to the area, I understand why the landowners feel the way they do. Yeesh.

    I think the outside article was more to the point:

    https://www.outsideonline.com/240774...r-trail-access

    Honestly, it is their land and it looks like their patience ran out.
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  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    I think the outside article was more to the point:

    https://www.outsideonline.com/240774...r-trail-access

    Honestly, it is their land and it looks like their patience ran out.
    It's a good article.

    However the thing this article and any of the other ones fail to mention is the complete lack of ownership KTA has taken in addressing the obvious needed controls and improvements required to handle the volume they kept growing with their "marketing".

    Additionally, while rider behavior certainly is a large contributor, I have a fairly good idea a significant part of it is also how KTA treats landowners, their concerns and the community in general. On the outside they are all #thankyou-landowners but KTA has a history of overextending their "purview" of accessible land.......and when concerns are raised their true position is "if it wasn't for KT and the trails you would have no economy and this village would be dead". While the economic impact is tangible, at what cost? For some, it isn't worth it and they may be done sacrificing their weekends to unchecked crowds for the economic benefit to the few that own successful businesses.
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  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    It's a good article.

    However the thing this article and any of the other ones fail to mention is the complete lack of ownership KTA has taken in addressing the obvious needed controls and improvements required to handle the volume they kept growing with their "marketing".

    Additionally, while rider behavior certainly is a large contributor, I have a fairly good idea a significant part of it is also how KTA treats landowners, their concerns and the community in general. On the outside they are all #thankyou-landowners but KTA has a history of overextending their "purview" of accessible land.......and when concerns are raised their true position is "if it wasn't for KT and the trails you would have no economy and this village would be dead". While the economic impact is tangible, at what cost? For some, it isn't worth it and they may be done sacrificing their weekends to unchecked crowds for the economic benefit to the few that own successful businesses.
    It's really just the truth. EBurke was sold a future, and now realize 25 years downstream, nope, not worth it.

    https://reviews.mtbr.com/bentonville...-in-the-making

    From the front page...read this as if it were marketing, and be critical of all stated benefits. Also, try and notice what is not at all considered. If you're really motivated, you can try and hunt down the actual data. If you do, you realize someone got a degree to get good at twisting statistics and creating a narrative. Pull "facts" from their context, and overweight them by exaggeration and omission.
    Also, investigate the history of mass-tourism. Maybe start with the history of Green-Up day in Vermont for local flavor. You can see the future in Bentonville. It's not the economic freedom promised to residents right now. Their future is the trash and pollution of maybe a million, 2 million vacationers a year and a move 30 minutes away because the restaurant or hotel job doesn't keep pace with the locally inflated cost of everything including housing ...gentrification ....displacement ....Starbucks.

    Right now 55% out of state visits. When that gets to 90%, see how much the locals love it, if there are any left there to ask.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    It's really just the truth. EBurke was sold a future, and now realize 25 years downstream, nope, not worth it.

    https://reviews.mtbr.com/bentonville...-in-the-making

    From the front page...read this as if it were marketing, and be critical of all stated benefits. Also, try and notice what is not at all considered. If you're really motivated, you can try and hunt down the actual data. If you do, you realize someone got a degree to get good at twisting statistics and creating a narrative. Pull "facts" from their context, and overweight them by exaggeration and omission.
    Also, investigate the history of mass-tourism. Maybe start with the history of Green-Up day in Vermont for local flavor. You can see the future in Bentonville. It's not the economic freedom promised to residents right now. Their future is the trash and pollution of maybe a million, 2 million vacationers a year and a move 30 minutes away because the restaurant or hotel job doesn't keep pace with the locally inflated cost of everything including housing ...gentrification ....displacement ....Starbucks.

    Right now 55% out of state visits. When that gets to 90%, see how much the locals love it, if there are any left there to ask.
    I agree with much of what you said Dave.

    Once the toothpaste is out of the tube, there needs to be very strong feedback loops to maintain any type of balance to be very aware of where that tipping point is. The reality is that feedback loop doesn't exist in KT and when they have been provided feedback it wasn't acted on. KT became the coolest kids in the room and if you weren't "with them" you were/are a problem.

    That tipping point was reached and plowed through at a nuclear pace several years back. Bentonville, is a bit Apples and Oranges just based on the insanely deep pockets financing that whole beast of a trail system.
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  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    KT became the coolest kids in the room and if you weren't "with them" you were/are a problem.

    That tipping point was reached and plowed through at a nuclear pace several years back. Bentonville, is a bit Apples and Oranges just based on the insanely deep pockets financing that whole beast of a trail system.
    Cancel Culture. Modern day character assassination.

    I see relationship between places like KTA and the Walmart Trails as local, co-op apples to massive GMO mega-farm apples. The only difference is scale. Beyond that I think a very comparable model, except maybe ultimate local land control in the KTA
    is a check that the folks in Arkansas don't enjoy. No stopping Full-Disney type crowds down there. One could easily imagine 10 times the volume at some point 20 years from now.

    This is a little dated, but they appear to be at KTA numbers already. This reads like a regurgitation of KTA "News". The things they put $ value on as part of their total economic gains is LOL.
    https://www.waltonfamilyfoundation.o...hwest-arkansas

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    Wow I have never felt so unwelcome to come to a state. I have been going to Vermont most of my life and even lived there for a while.
    I think the best idea is to build a wall and make people apply for visas to enter.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    I agree with much of what you said Dave.

    Once the toothpaste is out of the tube, there needs to be very strong feedback loops to maintain any type of balance to be very aware of where that tipping point is. The reality is that feedback loop doesn't exist in KT and when they have been provided feedback it wasn't acted on. KT became the coolest kids in the room and if you weren't "with them" you were/are a problem.

    That tipping point was reached and plowed through at a nuclear pace several years back. Bentonville, is a bit Apples and Oranges just based on the insanely deep pockets financing that whole beast of a trail system.


    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Cancel Culture. Modern day character assassination.

    I see relationship between places like KTA and the Walmart Trails as local, co-op apples to massive GMO mega-farm apples. The only difference is scale. Beyond that I think a very comparable model, except maybe ultimate local land control in the KTA
    is a check that the folks in Arkansas don't enjoy. No stopping Full-Disney type crowds down there. One could easily imagine 10 times the volume at some point 20 years from now.

    This is a little dated, but they appear to be at KTA numbers already. This reads like a regurgitation of KTA "News". The things they put $ value on as part of their total economic gains is LOL.
    https://www.waltonfamilyfoundation.o...hwest-arkansas
    The only major difference is land ownership. The other is the way that the organizations interface with the community at large. There is quite a bit of work done to show how everyone benefits, whether they recreate on trails or not. As to laughing at the numbers, they are all accurate and based on established calculations.

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  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by sikocycles View Post
    Wow I have never felt so unwelcome to come to a state. I have been going to Vermont most of my life and even lived there for a while.
    I think the best idea is to build a wall and make people apply for visas to enter.
    Come down to Arkansas and ride. We'd love have you.

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  20. #220
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    I was planing 4th of July up in VT but will be changing my plans. I will look it up for sure. Was thinking NC and SC to ride.

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    The only major difference is land ownership. The other is the way that the organizations interface with the community at large. There is quite a bit of work done to show how everyone benefits, whether they recreate on trails or not. As to laughing at the numbers, they are all accurate and based on established calculations.

    Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk
    Oh, I believe a lot of work was done to show how everyone benefited. A lot of work would be needed to paint that picture when you have a long history of Tourism telling a much differet story. It would take several degrees in marketing, probably...and some well-funded "studies".

    Are you somehow associated with the Waltons or the trails?

    Can you share the calculations for exactly how they discovered 86 million dollars in health care savings for the region in 2017?

    Right off the top I see $137,000,000 in economic gains, and 90,000 visitors. That's over $1500 a visitor. Type of "Math" reveals "The Multiplier Effect". Where every dollar spent is suddenly $10 dollars. It's an economic THEORY latched onto by folks who could no longer the sell idea of Trickle Down, but needed a new magic bullet to hush the "Bottom Up" proponents. Let's not, as the Waltons, just directly spend on health care, education, ect. in our home town area. Lets instead invest in bringing affluent tourists here, based on the premise that all the money they spend will help everyone. It's literally a microcosm of how Multinationals and the World Bank enslave third world countries. Sadly, it helps large land owners and investors, destroys the environment, and locks the locals into service industry jobs with no economic future. Eventually they will have to import labor like ski resorts ect. Pick a global tourist destination, and show me a different story. It can't be done.

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by sikocycles View Post
    I was planing 4th of July up in VT but will be changing my plans. I will look it up for sure. Was thinking NC and SC to ride.
    Weather should be perfect in July for long rides.

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Oh, I believe a lot of work was done to show how everyone benefited. A lot of work would be needed to paint that picture when you have a long history of Tourism telling a much differet story. It would take several degrees in marketing, probably...and some well-funded "studies".

    Are you somehow associated with the Waltons or the trails?

    Can you share the calculations for exactly how they discovered 86 million dollars in health care savings for the region in 2017?
    That's the thing, perception can be reversed. It just takes presenting the data in a way that everyone involved can see the positive impact even if they are not directly involved.

    To get a little less factually concrete that has resulted in organically changing behaviors. Most locals do their absolute best to model great trail etiquette. People from out of town are embraced, welcomed into group rides, or even shuttles, so that they can have a better time. We have Facebook pages set up to help them make the most of their trips. Understanding the macro economic impact to the region has resulted in a buy in from everyone, not just users, that is amazing.

    So, to answer I am not directly associated with either. I do volunteer has a steward to handle minor maintenance issues on a mile long section of trail that is assigned to me. However, indirectly, anyone who owns property near the trails is completely bought in as we see our property values rise due to AirBnBs or just the premium upcharge for access.

    The numbers came from a study similar to this RAND one, https://www.rand.org/randeurope/rese...ty-levels.html

    I'm on vacation with just a phone and a poor connection so that's the best I can do at the moment.

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  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    That's the thing, perception can be reversed. It just takes presenting the data in a way that everyone involved can see the positive impact even if they are not directly involved.

    To get a little less factually concrete that has resulted in organically changing behaviors. Most locals do their absolute best to model great trail etiquette. People from out of town are embraced, welcomed into group rides, or even shuttles, so that they can have a better time. We have Facebook pages set up to help them make the most of their trips. Understanding the macro economic impact to the region has resulted in a buy in from everyone, not just users, that is amazing.

    So, to answer I am not directly associated with either. I do volunteer has a steward to handle minor maintenance issues on a mile long section of trail that is assigned to me. However, indirectly, anyone who owns property near the trails is completely bought in as we see our property values rise due to AirBnBs or just the premium upcharge for access.

    The numbers came from a study similar to this RAND one, https://www.rand.org/randeurope/rese...ty-levels.html

    I'm on vacation with just a phone and a poor connection so that's the best I can do at the moment.

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    I wonder what percentage of Northwest Arkansas residents have a house and resources that allow them to Air B n B their residents, trail side, or not. I wonder what percentage of the population can afford a $3500 dollar and up pedal bike?

    That Rand Study is so Opaque, the numbers it spits out are meaningless. Again, if the Waltons wanted to be charitable to Arkansas as their home-state, they could. Their reality among their peers is they give very very little.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    I wonder what percentage of Northwest Arkansas residents have a house and resources that allow them to Air B n B their residents, trail side, or not. I wonder what percentage of the population can afford a $3500 dollar and up pedal bike?

    That Rand Study is so Opaque, the numbers it spits out are meaningless. Again, if the Waltons wanted to be charitable to Arkansas as their home-state, they could. Their reality among their peers is they give very very little.
    You wonder a lot about things that would shock you. Quite a few people in NWA play the AirBnB game whether it's a separate property, walk-in basement or just listing on weekends they are out of town. Why does someone have to have a $3500 bike? Almost all the trails here are multi-use. Trail running is huge in the area.

    The study isn't that opaque. Healthy people have more discretionary income due to not having a medical bill burden. Healthy people will also generally be willing to purchase more expensive items to maintain their enjoyment, health or both, this site is a study in that. Finally, healthy people put less strain on the local economy due to allowing resources to be conserved and directed where needed. There are also some actuary level calculations that could be done but this isn't the medium.

    I think the Walton family gives more than most people know or that they let on about. They have multiple charitable arms, some of which are not linked directly to them. I can think of two off the top of my head where the donation not being publicized was part of the conditions of the donation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sikocycles View Post
    I was planing 4th of July up in VT but will be changing my plans. I will look it up for sure. Was thinking NC and SC to ride.
    There are well over a dozen other places to ride in VT that superior to KT. Better trails and no crowds.

    Besides the family friendly aspect, it still boggles my mind that when people think of mountain biking in Vermont they think KT is the best option.
    Vermonter - bikes, beers and skis.

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    I didn't read the whole thread. I do find it humorous that some of the participants in this thread are saying "this was bound to happen", but seem to be taking the same approach (let's make official trails on tiny parcels around Burlington and beyond. It won't get overrun with riders. Why does every little set of trails have to be sanitized, publicized, social mediatized, mtb rider clubbed to death? As you point out the miscues of others, check out what you have been up to.
    Ok I'll leave now.

  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    It's really just the truth. EBurke was sold a future, and now realize 25 years downstream, nope, not worth it.

    https://reviews.mtbr.com/bentonville...-in-the-making

    From the front page...read this as if it were marketing, and be critical of all stated benefits. Also, try and notice what is not at all considered. If you're really motivated, you can try and hunt down the actual data. If you do, you realize someone got a degree to get good at twisting statistics and creating a narrative. Pull "facts" from their context, and overweight them by exaggeration and omission.
    Also, investigate the history of mass-tourism. Maybe start with the history of Green-Up day in Vermont for local flavor. You can see the future in Bentonville. It's not the economic freedom promised to residents right now. Their future is the trash and pollution of maybe a million, 2 million vacationers a year and a move 30 minutes away because the restaurant or hotel job doesn't keep pace with the locally inflated cost of everything including housing ...gentrification ....displacement ....Starbucks.

    Right now 55% out of state visits. When that gets to 90%, see how much the locals love it, if there are any left there to ask.

    All good points and I think it is important to understand what you are getting into. I lived in the UK for years and the MTB scene had a dramatic impact upon the economy of Wales.

    http://www.outdoorrecreationni.com/w...March-2014.pdf

    One line from this document always struck me - although it has nothing to do with MTBing:

    "The majority of visitors express an intention to return to Wales for activities however certain groups are discouraged from undertaking activities such as kayaking in Wales due to confusion and dispute over access to land and water. Access is therefore a key issue to be tackled in order to encourage further success of the sector in Wales."

    The big difference is that there is very little in Wales (in these areas). People have little to no money and everything is about tourism. But it helped and the local economy has reaped great rewards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    You wonder a lot about things that would shock you. Quite a few people in NWA play the AirBnB game whether it's a separate property, walk-in basement or just listing on weekends they are out of town. Why does someone have to have a $3500 bike? Almost all the trails here are multi-use. Trail running is huge in the area.

    The study isn't that opaque. Healthy people have more discretionary income due to not having a medical bill burden. Healthy people will also generally be willing to purchase more expensive items to maintain their enjoyment, health or both, this site is a study in that. Finally, healthy people put less strain on the local economy due to allowing resources to be conserved and directed where needed. There are also some actuary level calculations that could be done but this isn't the medium.

    I think the Walton family gives more than most people know or that they let on about. They have multiple charitable arms, some of which are not linked directly to them. I can think of two off the top of my head where the donation not being publicized was part of the conditions of the donation.

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    It's clear you haven't read about that Waltons. They give very very little, even when compared to much more modest demographics...they are, frankly one of the greediest families among their earning group, and this is not hard to find out.
    C'mon man, a Walton funded study putting such a monetary value on something as intangible as Health of a region? Claiming it as "Accurate" is like searing to a lie. That is a great example of the spin. There are 3 kinds of lies. Lies. Damn Lies. And Statistics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    There are well over a dozen other places to ride in VT that superior to KT. Better trails and no crowds.

    Besides the family friendly aspect, it still boggles my mind that when people think of mountain biking in Vermont they think KT is the best option.
    ...and the threats to take their money elsewhere are an example of the entitelment and self-importance that created the issues at KTA. Lol to me. Don't let the door hit your behind on the way out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    It's clear you haven't read about that Waltons. They give very very little, even when compared to much more modest demographics...they are, frankly one of the greediest families among their earning group, and this is not hard to find out.
    C'mon man, a Walton funded study putting such a monetary value on something as intangible as Health of a region? Claiming it as "Accurate" is like searing to a lie. That is a great example of the spin. There are 3 kinds of lies. Lies. Damn Lies. And Statistics.
    Or, it's clear, you've only read about the Waltons and have no first hand experience with them and their causes. Sorry, I'll take my living in Bentonville firsthand experiences over anything you can read. Like I said not saying who it's from ends up being a condition of many of their donations.

    Also, the economic impact of a healthy populace is a well documented fact. I understand that you don't want to admit it for what now appears to be two reasons. The first is that you are for some reason anti-tourist, which is baffling due to the opportunities it opens up when managed correctly, and your dislike of the Waltons.

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    With the thread entering a 2nd Time Zone (CST) in greater-Arkansas, I'll re-state the obvious where having cantankerous goings-on lead to this swift action disallowing Cyclists 'tis the last feather that breaks the horse's back; the final straw.
    So - the Previous Straws, some may ask?? There's 8454 of 'em across 846 pages within another
    forum.

    Hadn't had to conclude anything other than Bill Stenger & Ariel Quiros as having previously indicated capacity to a Ponzi masterpiece during the mid-1990's w/ a Trial, Conviction and conclusion to the Criminal Investigation. Should there be holdouts and unwashed-brainwashed masses within the ranks at KTA then the valley truly smells like rotten eggs.

    Yet somehow it's entirely laughable.

    A former friend, small cycling business owner in Vermont got brought up to speed one day regarding chatter and there being potential-of far reaching scheme; a flagging w/ someone I'd trusted. I recall starting the conversation with 'some dipshits w/ knowledge of a scheme that ensnared ESPN's Founder here in SWFL are taking an interest in Burke Resort' or something like that. Honestly I forget at this point, but I'm satisfied if that's the jist.
    The mechanics were addressed to the SEC in 2001/2002 and, given reception.

    However, what anti-anti, Down Home, etc. image bringing me further-north to live and work in Vermont, contrasting then-unforeseeable inflationary investment spending & resulting consequence(s) in Burke became a manufactured image. Lone-source to a falling out 10 years ago.
    The cost is not anything similar, or at all able to be considered a breach like agreement between the residents of Burke and KTA. Merely illustrates to where 'Do the Right Thing' applies to both the Apple and to the Orange. To the Watermelon and the Grape. To Pizza and Caffeine Free Diet Coke. A Shark Sandwich and some Banana Pudding.

    You get the idea: this development sucks./
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    If I told you I met Bill Cosby once and he was a nice guy, would that mean he wasn't actually a rapist? https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoc.../#37d0f7197d52
    Yes, I understand that this report was done by an anti walmart group, but public or not, donations are part of a tax return.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    If I told you I met Bill Cosby once and he was a nice guy, would that mean he wasn't actually a rapist? https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoc.../#37d0f7197d52
    Yes, I understand that this report was done by an anti walmart group, but public or not, donations are part of a tax return.
    That would be a great find, except it's already been covered. They do much more than just the WFF. So sure, if you're basing your entire argument from a biased piece that uses its examination of but a single charitable organization, all while only looking for donations from personal accounts while excluding donations through other majority owned entities I can see how you arrived at that conclusion but it does not mean it reflects reality.

    Actually, if you think about it it is horribly disingenuous and intellectually dishonest. They give them credit towards their net worth due to holdings but then exclude the same holdings when talking about donations. Nope, no ulterior motive or slant there at all.


    Also, it just clicked this needed to be called out too. You using a report that names the children shows a lack of understanding about the grandkid's role in all of this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Owners getting compensated also exposes them to liability under the Landowner Liability Act. Monetizing MTBing makes it commercial use, so assuming enough land is involved, which there is at KT, even considering it's status as part of the VT trail system, makes Act 250 applicable. It is expensive to go through Act 250, and it affects future sale and development of people's land. If host landowner are suddenly required to go through the permitting process, it could trigger more pull-outs, hut that is just pure speculation. I'm still super interested in hearing from the NRB on Victory, because it will be very hard to explain how VHT is required to permit but KTA is not.
    There has to be a legal vehicle for covering owner liability. Maybe KT becomes an operating company and leases the trails. Highland Mountain bike sends a downhiller for a helicopter ride on a backboard every week and they seem to be able to operate. I think KT needs to upscale really quickly so that they have the resources to start thinking like a real company and stop with the small mindedness. As far as Act 250 goes, again, if they scaled up to the right level they could manage this. Honestly I dont get Act 250 other than its another piece of old hippy legislation that keeps Vermonters highly taxed, backward, and impoverished relative to other states in New England.

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    Damn Dave we get it. I think a lot of folks are scared about widespread development and gentrification that can come with some of these things (like trails). But sitting on the sidelines trying to hide your secret stash won't fix the problem and won't last long. Maybe your lifetime, but what about the folks after you?

    Trust me a lot of people are thinking about these things instead of whining and saying the only option is to hole up in your local woods threatening outsiders.

    I know we can't agree, but many people do, that more trails are pretty damn good for communities for a wide variety of reasons. For all the NWAs and KTs there are thousands of other projects going on that truly have amazing impacts for locals.
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  37. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceboxsteve View Post
    Damn Dave we get it. I think a lot of folks are scared about widespread development and gentrification that can come with some of these things (like trails). But sitting on the sidelines trying to hide your secret stash won't fix the problem and won't last long. Maybe your lifetime, but what about the folks after you?

    Trust me a lot of people are thinking about these things instead of whining and saying the only option is to hole up in your local woods threatening outsiders.

    I know we can't agree, but many people do, that more trails are pretty damn good for communities for a wide variety of reasons. For all the NWAs and KTs there are thousands of other projects going on that truly have amazing impacts for locals.

    I think this is a fair assesssment of the overall situation as clealry Dave's paradigm is on one end and the rosey picture of tourism as the great savior for Vermont and many other rural areas is on the other end.

    IMHO there has to be a balance. KT did bring significant life to a dying/dead town and really cluster of towns when you factor in the impacted area as a whole. The problem is the tipping point and balance point was blown through at warp speed several years back and KTA continued to throw gas on an already burning fire and here we are.

    Where I do agree with Dave throughout the years here has been on trail building, sanitization and commodification of trails against the wishes of the original trail builders etc. While on one hand I have seen the value in a TrailForks situation for navigation, I would also be beside myself if a small non-marketed trails system I built and was the primary steward of ended up mapped up to hell on TrailForks, MTBProject and friggin' Strava. I don't like the way VMBA "gathered" trail systems initially and I think toes may have been stepped on and that is a while different saga.

    Regarding KT specifically, it is a leadership issue, stewardship issue and community relations issue. KT is sitting still watching and enjoying how the various media outlets are placing the blame on riders so the MTB community as a whole is to blame. Sure, there is plenty of blame to land on riders, the group mess every weekend in KT brings out the worst in our community as far as group-think and behavior. BUT.....KT created, this, watched this evolve over the years, did relatively nothing AND marketed the hell out of the place throwing more gas on the fire.

    Perhaps we all should be following the money better here. What did KTA do with the thousand and thousands of government grants over the years? Did they leverage those grants to ease parking? Congestion? Traffic issues? Address landonwer complaints? Invest in trail patrols to ensure their visitors (who KTA collected $ from) were respecting the 100 landowners and community as a whole? If not, where did the $ go? What did they do for 25 years? Who got paid? Where are the minutes from the public meetings? (hint I don't believer there were any).
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    I think this is a fair assesssment of the overall situation as clealry Dave's paradigm is on one end and the rosey picture of tourism as the great savior for Vermont and many other rural areas is on the other end.

    IMHO there has to be a balance. KT did bring significant life to a dying/dead town and really cluster of towns when you factor in the impacted area as a whole. The problem is the tipping point and balance point was blown through at warp speed several years back and KTA continued to throw gas on an already burning fire and here we are.

    Where I do agree with Dave throughout the years here has been on trail building, sanitization and commodification of trails against the wishes of the original trail builders etc. While on one hand I have seen the value in a TrailForks situation for navigation, I would also be beside myself if a small non-marketed trails system I built and was the primary steward of ended up mapped up to hell on TrailForks, MTBProject and friggin' Strava. I don't like the way VMBA "gathered" trail systems initially and I think toes may have been stepped on and that is a while different saga.

    Regarding KT specifically, it is a leadership issue, stewardship issue and community relations issue. KT is sitting still watching and enjoying how the various media outlets are placing the blame on riders so the MTB community as a whole is to blame. Sure, there is plenty of blame to land on riders, the group mess every weekend in KT brings out the worst in our community as far as group-think and behavior. BUT.....KT created, this, watched this evolve over the years, did relatively nothing AND marketed the hell out of the place throwing more gas on the fire.

    Perhaps we all should be following the money better here. What did KTA do with the thousand and thousands of government grants over the years? Did they leverage those grants to ease parking? Congestion? Traffic issues? Address landonwer complaints? Invest in trail patrols to ensure their visitors (who KTA collected $ from) were respecting the 100 landowners and community as a whole? If not, where did the $ go? What did they do for 25 years? Who got paid? Where are the minutes from the public meetings? (hint I don't believer there were any).

    I agree with a lot of what you've said here, but probably would not want to go down the follow the money path. While KTA's actions could be described as reactive, I would want to give them the benefit of the doubt on how the money was managed. All that trail and bridge work doesn't come cheap. Hindsight being what it is, it sure seems a more proactive approach in working with landowners would have helped. But, your points on applying future processes (given the rider population explosion) are valid. Riders and KTA are going to have to work together to keep other landowners from pulling out. It's a "we" problem,

    A couple of "in an alternate universe" questions:
    What if everything remained the same, and the general feelings from landowners were "Wow, there sure are a lot more riders here, but they're all so damn polite". (?)

    How would the residents react if the Quiros' and QBurke master plan for the valley actually happened? (Golf course, Olympic swimming facility, Miami Vice style night club etc.) I imagine East Burke would have looked a lot like Stowe and all its trappings in the span of a decade. It's great that the scheme was busted, but the thought of what could have happened may be in the minds of locals, and along comes another threat in a booming rider population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k1creeker View Post
    I agree with a lot of what you've said here, but probably would not want to go down the follow the money path. While KTA's actions could be described as reactive, I would want to give them the benefit of the doubt on how the money was managed. All that trail and bridge work doesn't come cheap. Hindsight being what it is, it sure seems a more proactive approach in working with landowners would have helped. But, your points on applying future processes (given the rider population explosion) are valid. Riders and KTA are going to have to work together to keep other landowners from pulling out. It's a "we" problem,

    A couple of "in an alternate universe" questions:
    What if everything remained the same, and the general feelings from landowners were "Wow, there sure are a lot more riders here, but they're all so damn polite". (?)

    How would the residents react if the Quiros' and QBurke master plan for the valley actually happened? (Golf course, Olympic swimming facility, Miami Vice style night club etc.) I imagine East Burke would have looked a lot like Stowe and all its trappings in the span of a decade. It's great that the scheme was busted, but the thought of what could have happened may be in the minds of locals, and along comes another threat in a booming rider population.

    R.E, the ski mountain. It IS great that the scheme got busted but the ski resort itself is a very serious problem. It cannot be sold out of receivership until the requisite number of jobs have been created, and only THEN can it be handed off to be put up for sale, Jay is further along in the process and still has nothing definitive in terms of a sale. Very likely that the Burke ski area stays in this limbo for several years. Not great.

  40. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokee300 View Post
    R.E, the ski mountain. It IS great that the scheme got busted but the ski resort itself is a very serious problem. It cannot be sold out of receivership until the requisite number of jobs have been created, and only THEN can it be handed off to be put up for sale, Jay is further along in the process and still has nothing definitive in terms of a sale. Very likely that the Burke ski area stays in this limbo for several years. Not great.
    And even with a very solid snow year last season, the mountain and hotel did not make money according to the reeiver.

    If they can't make money in a year like that......well the model has to be questioned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    And even with a very solid snow year last season, the mountain and hotel did not make money according to the reeiver.

    If they can't make money in a year like that......well the model has to be questioned.
    Yep, I REALLY don't want to think this way, but I can't help but wonder if things would have been different with Quiros. I know it was a VERY dirty deal, but things seem pretty bleak at the moment.

  42. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    KT is sitting still watching and enjoying how the various media outlets are placing the blame on riders so the MTB community as a whole is to blame. any).
    Was the use of the word ‘enjoying’ simply your choice of phrase or are you aware of any evidence that they see the deflection of blame as a positive. I hope it is the former.

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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    Perhaps we all should be following the money better here. What did KTA do with the thousand and thousands of government grants over the years? Did they leverage those grants to ease parking? Congestion? Traffic issues? Address landonwer complaints? Invest in trail patrols to ensure their visitors (who KTA collected $ from) were respecting the 100 landowners and community as a whole? If not, where did the $ go? What did they do for 25 years? Who got paid? Where are the minutes from the public meetings? (hint I don't believer there were any).
    I cant tell whether you are questioning that the money was not spent in the most productive ways or whether you think there is some wacky conspiracy here.

    I don't think there is any kind of conspiracy going on but people who have never been responsible for anything in their lives fall for conspiracy theories because they have so little control of their own lives.

  44. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endosch2 View Post
    I cant tell whether you are questioning that the money was not spent in the most productive ways or whether you think there is some wacky conspiracy here.

    I don't think there is any kind of conspiracy going on but people who have never been responsible for anything in their lives fall for conspiracy theories because they have so little control of their own lives.
    Fair question.

    I co-managed a $6.5B budget, I don't fall for conspiracy theories when it comes to money. KT received sizable chunks of grant $ over the years. Where was that spent? How was that spent? Knowing what the community was struggling with every week, did they deploy any of those funds to address the issues brought to them or did they use it purely for tourist marketing to throw more gas on the fire of over crowding? Who received consulting fees etc.? Just basic questions when you are dealing with a lack of transparency and some things don't pass the sniff test.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike93 View Post
    Was the use of the word ‘enjoying’ simply your choice of phrase or are you aware of any evidence that they see the deflection of blame as a positive. I hope it is the former.
    Direct evidence they are "enjoying"? No. Choice of words based on the fact they sat back and watched this situation develop and burn out of control for a number of years and never acted on feedback and concerns of the community. The fact they have not taken responsibility or addressed the long standing issues and take some blame on themselves for over a month now shows me (and many others) they are clearly more comfortable allowing the court of public opinion run with the "damn MTBers can't behave".

    Sure, behavior is a large issue. The other side of that is the need (and lack of) strong stewardship and community relations management.
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    River 19 - I think we have exchanged ideas on this on various FB pages. I agree the same KTA bury the head in the sand mentality seems to be at work in the face of criticism of the organization and overwhelming support for the community and landowners. The money angle is interesting from an accountability standpoint. I would also question if conflicts of interest exist among the board of KTA, town officials and influential business owners. Some people are making money off this mess. On a more positive note here is a link to an organization that found itself in a similar situation and did the right thing in short order. No year long impact study required.

    https://www.crystalmountainresort.co...an-open-letter

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    The money spent on those trails should have gone to employees. Instead we all pay for those trails through support of the working poor that are forced into Walmart employment because our economic abandonment the working man in the decoupling of labor and value. That project, and the way the MTB community at large, and the industry it's self pay homage to them really speaks most clearly to the disconnect MTB suffers from, and is a further intensification of the disconnect currently devouring the KTA. Despite the glaring juxtaposition of a 75 million dollar trail system and fine art museum located in the midst of some of the harshest poverty in the East, no one dare question the disconnect. Folks drive in in their $100,000 vans with 30 thousand dollars of bike sticking off the back like the nickles they spend in Appalachia are going to replace their Main Street businesses, their lost industry or pay for their child's education. Nope. Scam. Tourism is what happens to your area when you loose a war. Literally. Where you see it becoming a significant part of the economy is where labor lost theirs decades ago.

    Tourism, and the associated service industry jobs are economic enslavement, and wealth extraction on the back of exploited labor, destruction of culture, and the environment.
    Wut?

  48. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike93 View Post
    River 19 - I think we have exchanged ideas on this on various FB pages. I agree the same KTA bury the head in the sand mentality seems to be at work in the face of criticism of the organization and overwhelming support for the community and landowners. The money angle is interesting from an accountability standpoint. I would also question if conflicts of interest exist among the board of KTA, town officials and influential business owners. Some people are making money off this mess. On a more positive note here is a link to an organization that found itself in a similar situation and did the right thing in short order. No year long impact study required.

    https://www.crystalmountainresort.co...an-open-letter
    No doubt we probably have. My messaging has been similar in both places as I don't really hide from a good discussion.

    Glad you brought up Crystal Mountain as I didn't have the energy or time earlier as I was in the office. That story you linked to is a story of an Accountable Organization. I work for an Accountable Organization as well and we due to our size, business and place in our industry have to own everything we do. There is no hiding, if we mess up, we own it, we admit a mistake, we clearly articulate the plan to fix whatever the issue is and what steps have been taken to ensure it never happens again.

    KTA still has yet to do that. About anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike93 View Post
    River 19 - I think we have exchanged ideas on this on various FB pages. I agree the same KTA bury the head in the sand mentality seems to be at work in the face of criticism of the organization and overwhelming support for the community and landowners. The money angle is interesting from an accountability standpoint. I would also question if conflicts of interest exist among the board of KTA, town officials and influential business owners. Some people are making money off this mess. On a more positive note here is a link to an organization that found itself in a similar situation and did the right thing in short order. No year long impact study required.

    https://www.crystalmountainresort.co...an-open-letter
    I was actually part of that situation. a drive that would normally take 1.5-2 hrs (1 hr with no weather or traffic) took 5 hours only to be shut out of access road leading to the resort. After another 30min of waiting at the bottom of the access road they finally allowed single cars up the road when a car was leaving the resort. It was very frustrating as a pass holder.

    But it sure was nice to get a messages that they were looking at short term and long term solutions. not just silence.

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    Sorry - delete derail...
    Last edited by Bowridge; 1 Day Ago at 07:31 AM. Reason: thread derail

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bowridge View Post
    Should have let the 'scheme' continue - once it got shut down, money flow stopped & now everyone is pissed about unfinished projects / unpaid contractors / limbo / etc....
    Crappy situation.

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    And is anyone shocked at the latest KT FB post? Some arseholes rode the closed trails.

    First, this sucks.

    Second, in reality the riders were most likely locals as it is highly unlikely anyone drove up mid week for crappy conditions. And no I don't "know" it was locals but I would put some $ on it.....which brings me to...

    This isn't hard to figure out or hard to put some action against. Trail Cameras. Use some of that $1M income and pick up a couple grand in cameras..... Victory Hill had this issue with rogue riders ignoring closed signs when the trails were muddy as hell, they rode, they messed things up, they and their license were caught on camera. Guess what color the license plates were? Green.....and not the light green ones....

    This really doesn't have to be that hard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    And is anyone shocked at the latest KT FB post? Some arseholes rode the closed trails.

    First, this sucks.

    Second, in reality the riders were most likely locals as it is highly unlikely anyone drove up mid week for crappy conditions. And no I don't "know" it was locals but I would put some $ on it.....which brings me to...

    This isn't hard to figure out or hard to put some action against. Trail Cameras. Use some of that $1M income and pick up a couple grand in cameras..... Victory Hill had this issue with rogue riders ignoring closed signs when the trails were muddy as hell, they rode, they messed things up, they and their license were caught on camera. Guess what color the license plates were? Green.....and not the light green ones....

    This really doesn't have to be that hard.
    I can't seem to find it on their page

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    He said, she said, her fault, his fault. The problem still exists.
    The solutions are complicated.
    The problem is clear.
    Too many riders in too small a place.
    The ratio of douche bags to good riders goes up.
    The question here is how to move forward?

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    So let's say we play armchair quarterback, what concrete solutions would each of you implement to ease the tension in East Burke?

    I'll start. In no specific order of importance.

    - Raise daily and season pass prices for non locals. "locals" would need to be defined, town, county, state?
    - Make it illegal to spend the night in any vehicle outside of campgrounds.
    - Give landowners tax credits or financial kickbacks based on the amount of trails located on their land.
    - Limit the amount of AirBnB rental properties per sector
    - Have trail patrol on ebikes (so they can cover lots of ground) to check on passes and make sure everyone is acting according to the code of conduct. Trail patrol can be reached at all time while on duty by landowners and other users.
    - Limit the size of groups that can travel together in a bunch and enforce it.
    - Limit the amount of demo, events, and marketing by KTA.
    - Have KTA hold public board meetings once in a while and have a town and owner representative on KTA board.

  56. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jozz View Post
    So let's say we play armchair quarterback, what concrete solutions would each of you implement to ease the tension in East Burke?

    I'll start. In no specific order of importance.

    - Raise daily and season pass prices for non locals. "locals" would need to be defined, town, county, state?
    - Make it illegal to spend the night in any vehicle outside of campgrounds.
    - Give landowners tax credits or financial kickbacks based on the amount of trails located on their land.
    - Limit the amount of AirBnB rental properties per sector
    - Have trail patrol on ebikes (so they can cover lots of ground) to check on passes and make sure everyone is acting according to the code of conduct. Trail patrol can be reached at all time while on duty by landowners and other users.
    - Limit the size of groups that can travel together in a bunch and enforce it.
    - Limit the amount of demo, events, and marketing by KTA.
    - Have KTA hold public board meetings once in a while and have a town and owner representative on KTA board.
    Solid start.

    - Invest in a pass system with bar codes that are associated with a picture ID and name, arm the trail patrols with the ability to scan and issue warnings or outright revocation of passes. Lose a pass, no KT for you for a year.

    - Warnings can be issued for any rule infraction that is deemed appropriate....group of 12-15 riders, they all get a warning. Park illegally, warning. Second offense no pass.

    - Explore booting illegally parked vehicles, to remove the boot come on down to the KT office and have a chat.

    - Trail cameras around sensitive areas

    - Establish a leadership both within the KTA day to day but also the Board that has some new blood and actual experience running something of this nature. The current situation has proven to many there has been a gross failure of leadership, awareness and a gross over playing of their hand.

    - Establish a Steering Committee comprised of Riders at large, non-riding community members, LANDOWNERS, a possibly a representative of local business ownership if conflicts can be avoided.

    - Currently "membership" has no real privilege other than not spending the equivalent of 100 day passes.......some input on how their grants, resources etc. are allocated might go a long way

    - ACCOUNTABILITY........be an accountable organization. Over a month in and no statement of accountability, no clarification statements, just PR blunders providing an outstanding case study in what not to do for a Community Relations class or Marketing class.

    - Rethink and Restructure the day to day positions. No Marketing position or event coordination is needed as a primary role. Instead replace with seasoned local Community Relations and Landowner Relations positions as clearly there is an opportunity there.

    - They need to establish or make public their bylaws and road map for the future. Without guiding principals you cannot tell when you have strayed off the path until you hit the iceberg like we have.

    - Speaking of events.......involve the landowners and impacted community members and get their input.....they LIVE HERE!!! Maybe ask their permission before setting up an "Event" on their land. (focus on this)

    - What about supporting your customers? To date KTA has allowed several media outlets lay 100% of the blame for this situation on riders........ we all know that isn't true.

    Those are literally just some thoughts off the top of my head in addition to Jozz's solid start.

    Let's be clear here. Look at their Tax Forms....they have taken in Millions over the past few years, trail cams, trail patrols and proper parking enforcement etc. was well within their budget. They chose to "invest" in other places, one of them specifically being marketing the heck out of the area. Which, 99% of people realize overcrowding is at the heart of the issue so, how is the ROI on that investment looking?
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    Doesn't limiting AirBnB limit the ability of locals to profit from the situation by renting their spare bedrooms? If anything, that area needs more accommodations and camp sites. Maybe that would cut down on illegal camping and VanLife.

    Love the idea of trail cams. Make riders wear a big number like a race bib so that violators caught on the cameras can be identified.

    In all my years there, I've never seen a trail patrol. Maybe putting a person at each of the 2-3 major trails intersections on the weekends would create a "presence" and a sense of patrol. Those people could check passes, break up large groups, and assist as necessary. Make sure they wear something official like bright orange vests or something.

    But as much as I hate to admit it, limiting the number of day passes and limiting the number of riders on the trail may be required. And that will require enforcement.

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  58. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jozz View Post
    So let's say we play armchair quarterback, what concrete solutions would each of you implement to ease the tension in East Burke?
    Add rocks and roots to the trails.

    Should cut visitor numbers in half, at least.
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  59. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by connolm View Post
    Doesn't limiting AirBnB limit the ability of locals to profit from the situation by renting their spare bedrooms? If anything, that area needs more accommodations and camp sites. Maybe that would cut down on illegal camping and VanLife.
    I dont think this will help. I think these people like the "glamour" of vanlife and "free and illegal camping" You see this all over social media. "how to camp for free nonsense"

  60. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by connolm View Post
    Doesn't limiting AirBnB limit the ability of locals to profit from the situation by renting their spare bedrooms? If anything, that area needs more accommodations and camp sites. Maybe that would cut down on illegal camping and VanLife.
    My suggestions comes from afar and without extensive local knowledge. I based these suggestion on actions we are taking locally to limit tourism to our network. The network I manage is in a community similar to E.Burke and KTA has become a text book example of what not to do.

    Our AirBnB situation is that non locals buy houses to rent to hordes of people that disrupt the peace and quiet of our small town. Partys, Firework all summer at all time, trash, you name it. What drunk humans do best. Of course if it is renting a spare room to help pay for the VT high tax rate I concur. But if non locals are using rental properties to make $$ and then disrupting the peace in a neighborhood, then it becomes a problem.

  61. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by connolm View Post
    But as much as I hate to admit it, limiting the number of day passes and limiting the number of riders on the trail may be required. And that will require enforcement.

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    Quite a few ski resorts limit tickets sales on crowded days for various reasons. This is a no brainer place to start. Weekends tickets sales should be limited Memorial day through Columbus day.

    Post this message everywhere, offer advanced online ticket sales and if you show up and its sold out, tough sh!t.

    KT needs to start looking at running things like a ski resort to create accountability and regain some control.
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  62. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by sikocycles View Post
    I dont think this will help. I think these people like the "glamour" of vanlife and "free and illegal camping" You see this all over social media. "how to camp for free nonsense"
    Agree on the glam aspect

    The thing people fail to understand or care about when they watch BKXC, Seth, Phil, Punter, BCPOV, Alex etc. run around the US and ride awesome trails living in their vans is that much of it is done west of the Mississippi River.....In the Northeast and especially New England, much of the land is privately owned and the public land is conservatively controlled, meaning heavy on controls against overnight camping, fires, fun and free anything.

    This isn't out West with BLM land or Crown land for the Canucks......#Vanlife in EB means you are most likely camping on someone else's land or camping illegally on public land or without the necessary permits.

    We camp throughout the country....pay the $15-50/night for a friggin' campsite or go out west for your real adventure and stop playing YouTube hero in your van in our backyards......you are messing it up for the rest of the people that ride and live there.

    It's disrespectful as hell.
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    Vermont charges a higher R.E. Tax to non-residents(2n home owners) Additionally there is a 9% short term rental tax that is applied in vacation rental situations. Some towns, Killington for example, impose another 1% tax on short term rentals that is kept exclusively for the town, not sure if Burke and Lyndon do this.

  64. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by sikocycles View Post
    I dont think this will help. I think these people like the "glamour" of vanlife and "free and illegal camping" You see this all over social media. "how to camp for free nonsense"
    This past summer I saw tons of these "vanlife" bros around Vermont. Just about every time I rode Cochran's, Millstone, Perry. etc. there would be at least a couple Sprinters with way out of state plates and likely ignoring the "no overnight parking" or "no camping" sign posted.

    Another larger factor is that mountain biking in Vermont is becoming very popular on a national level. I chatted with 2 guys from CO this summer who were bumming around the state riding bikes because they heard about all the hype around VT trails.
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  65. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    pay the $15-50/night for a friggin' campsite or go out west for your real adventure and stop playing YouTube hero in your van in our backyards......you are messing it up for the rest of the people that ride and live there.

    It's disrespectful as hell.
    But again, that would be pointing the finger the wrong way like they are doing to explain why trails are closing. There wouldn't be a Vanlife/camping problem if the city/parking owners did not allow it. I am one of those Van owner and I do camp for free most of the time, out West and on the East coast. There is some legal boondocking options in VT when you know where to look. Just respect the rules and be clean an quiet. We've been doing it for 20 years and never had a problem with anyone. It has become nearly impossible to camp at KTA anyway unless you want to plan your vacation time 2 months in advance.

  66. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jozz View Post
    But again, that would be pointing the finger the wrong way like they are doing to explain why trails are closing. There wouldn't be a Vanlife/camping problem if the city/parking owners did not allow it. I am one of those Van owner and I do camp for free most of the time, out West and on the East coast. There is some legal boondocking options in VT when you know where to look. Just respect the rules and be clean an quiet. We've been doing it for 20 years and never had a problem with anyone. It has become nearly impossible to camp at KTA anyway unless you want to plan your vacation time 2 months in advance.
    Fair point.

    There is nothing wrong with the act itself as long as it is legal. I'm not normally a stickler for the exact letter of the law on things but if the fit is hitting the shan, we all need to respect the community as a whole and that means things like them not waking up to a random Sprinter in their yard or back 40.
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    Apparently NEMBAFEST has been cancelled for 2020

  68. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokee300 View Post
    Apparently NEMBAFEST has been cancelled for 2020
    Good. What crowded mess that event is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    Good. What crowded mess that event is.
    I would have to agree.

  70. #270
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    This is an extreme case, but the lesson here that should be heard nationwide is that people who promote the resource need to be in sync with the people who own or manage the resource. That’s true regardless of whether it’s private or public land.

  71. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokee300 View Post
    Apparently NEMBAFEST has been cancelled for 2020
    It was amazing to me that many people wanted to be sardined together like that and have to get off their bikes every 100 feet because there was traffic coming the other way.
    No thank you

  72. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokee300 View Post
    Apparently NEMBAFEST has been cancelled for 2020
    Did I miss something? Where was this announced?
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  73. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    This is an extreme case, but the lesson here that should be heard nationwide is that people who promote the resource need to be in sync with the people who own or manage the resource. That’s true regardless of whether it’s private or public land.
    100% agreed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    Did I miss something? Where was this announced?
    Check the SE Mass. Nemba page on FB
    .

  75. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    This is an extreme case, but the lesson here that should be heard nationwide is that people who promote the resource need to be in sync with the people who own or manage the resource. That’s true regardless of whether it’s private or public land.
    Yup.

    Add to it that KTA over the past 4-6 weeks has basically provided a very rich amount of information for case studies in what not to do from a community relations, customer relations (thanks for letting the Riders take 100% of the blame KTA) and Marketing standpoint. Fails on each of those fronts.

    From an MTB org standpoint, they went from being anointed the "model" of a trail system association to......well what the heck is opposite of a model.....
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  76. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokee300 View Post
    Check the SE Mass. Nemba page on FB
    .
    Thanks just saw it on southern NH as well
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  77. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    Yup.

    Add to it that KTA over the past 4-6 weeks has basically provided a very rich amount of information for case studies in what not to do from a community relations, customer relations (thanks for letting the Riders take 100% of the blame KTA) and Marketing standpoint. Fails on each of those fronts.

    From an MTB org standpoint, they went from being anointed the "model" of a trail system association to......well what the heck is opposite of a model.....
    Cautionary example.

  78. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I hate to be that guy, but...

    All it takes is one guy who says “I’ve commuted to work on those trails for the last XYZ years...” in a courtroom.

    And then, poof, you’ve got yourself an easement. Yes, it’s a bit more complex than that but also not that complicated. The private landowners won’t win in court if someone sued them.


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    That'd be a great plan if these parcels were the last mountain bikers ever hoped to gain access to in the US.

  79. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    Cautionary example.

    Very. And sad.

    Honestly this is why I have been so vocal on this.....we all have seen this coming. We have mentioned things to KTA over the years or directly to people working for KTA etc. Nothing has been done. I would be kicking myself for years if this things goes to shit and I never at least vocalized my thoughts and sat back and watched it happen. I am calling a spade a spade.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jozz View Post
    So let's say we play armchair quarterback, what concrete solutions would each of you implement to ease the tension in East Burke?

    I'll start. In no specific order of importance.

    - Raise daily and season pass prices for non locals. "locals" would need to be defined, town, county, state?
    - Make it illegal to spend the night in any vehicle outside of campgrounds.
    - Give landowners tax credits or financial kickbacks based on the amount of trails located on their land.
    - Limit the amount of AirBnB rental properties per sector
    - Have trail patrol on ebikes (so they can cover lots of ground) to check on passes and make sure everyone is acting according to the code of conduct. Trail patrol can be reached at all time while on duty by landowners and other users.
    - Limit the size of groups that can travel together in a bunch and enforce it.
    - Limit the amount of demo, events, and marketing by KTA.
    - Have KTA hold public board meetings once in a while and have a town and owner representative on KTA board.
    Good start on the solutions list.

    Since social media and marketing is what got us here in in the first place, I would add an aggressive re-education program (in French and English) about what it means to be a responsible rider at KT. Elephant in the room...KTA really needs to acknowledge and tailor messaging to the riding culture that comes from city neighbors to the north.

    The weekly trail report posts could easily be supplemented with tips on preferred trail direction (or mandated trail direction), proper etiquette for passing/encountering other trail users (uphill/downhill right of way) (equestrian, hiker, biker, right of way). Stress the significance of the private landowners you might meet on your ride. Hell, include some of their history in the area if they're agreeable.

    Include posts on where it's okay to congregate (snack shack) and where's it's not (mid g-out on Sidewinder). "And be sure to stuff a couple bucks into the box for the water you just took from the chapel."
    Stiffly weight SM posts and printed material on rider education than on marketing the next "bro-event".

    Include acknowledgement with signatures of the trail/etiquette code with the sale of every trail pass and season's pass.

    Since there are so many riders with most claiming to be "one of the good guys". Enable some sort of self policing program...but I'm not sure how this is done without coming to blows on the trail. Possibly a carrot and stick approach with reputation merits and demerits like here on MTBR?

  81. #281
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    Not sure the best way to post this, but I came across some information from a reliable source and was able to confirm a portion of it......so I am going with the theory of "where there is smoke there is potentially fire" .

    There is a property tied in with the former developers of "Q Burke" that is for sale on Darling Hill. We have all seen it, we all know it, been for sale for a while. It is actively under contract. It is not cheap. It comes with acreage but it is landlocked by the closed parcels. There is a rumor floating around real estate circles that a certain organization or one may say association is the contracted buyer and that it will nearly empty their coffers.

    That being said, I don't like acting on rumors or spreading them necessarily, which is why I hesitated mentioning it. But if it were true.....and frankly while I don't think KTA is making great decisions these days, I don't see them being this out of touch with reality and the current situation to invest assets deep into the 6 figure range on something like a giant residential property. Granted acreage for more trails is cool.....but that doesn't solve the community issue of traffic, parking, congestion etc. on Darling Hill. They couldn't be that out of touch......right?

    Or maybe I am missing something.....

    I hope my sources were wrong.....
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  82. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by k1creeker View Post
    Good start on the solutions list.

    Since social media and marketing is what got us here in in the first place, I would add an aggressive re-education program (in French and English) about what it means to be a responsible rider at KT. Elephant in the room...KTA really needs to acknowledge and tailor messaging to the riding culture that comes from city neighbors to the north.

    The weekly trail report posts could easily be supplemented with tips on preferred trail direction (or mandated trail direction), proper etiquette for passing/encountering other trail users (uphill/downhill right of way) (equestrian, hiker, biker, right of way). Stress the significance of the private landowners you might meet on your ride. Hell, include some of their history in the area if they're agreeable.

    Include posts on where it's okay to congregate (snack shack) and where's it's not (mid g-out on Sidewinder). "And be sure to stuff a couple bucks into the box for the water you just took from the chapel."
    Stiffly weight SM posts and printed material on rider education than on marketing the next "bro-event".

    Include acknowledgement with signatures of the trail/etiquette code with the sale of every trail pass and season's pass.

    Since there are so many riders with most claiming to be "one of the good guys". Enable some sort of self policing program...but I'm not sure how this is done without coming to blows on the trail. Possibly a carrot and stick approach with reputation merits and demerits like here on MTBR?
    Amen.
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  83. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    Not sure the best way to post this, but I came across some information from a reliable source and was able to confirm a portion of it......so I am going with the theory of "where there is smoke there is potentially fire" .

    There is a property tied in with the former developers of "Q Burke" that is for sale on Darling Hill. We have all seen it, we all know it, been for sale for a while. It is actively under contract. It is not cheap. It comes with acreage but it is landlocked by the closed parcels. There is a rumor floating around real estate circles that a certain organization or one may say association is the contracted buyer and that it will nearly empty their coffers.

    That being said, I don't like acting on rumors or spreading them necessarily, which is why I hesitated mentioning it. But if it were true.....and frankly while I don't think KTA is making great decisions these days, I don't see them being this out of touch with reality and the current situation to invest assets deep into the 6 figure range on something like a giant residential property. Granted acreage for more trails is cool.....but that doesn't solve the community issue of traffic, parking, congestion etc. on Darling Hill. They couldn't be that out of touch......right?

    Or maybe I am missing something.....

    I hope my sources were wrong.....
    link to the listing?

  84. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by jozz View Post
    link to the listing?
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    Wow. Price history shows $699k on Nov 18 2018 and now $1.05 million on Oct 2019. Wish my home value did that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by connolm View Post
    Wow. Price history shows $699k on Nov 18 2018 and now $1.05 million on Oct 2019. Wish my home value did that!

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    But still, only a one car garage. :-)

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    Would seem with a cancellation of major event =1/ of 3 trips possible to Vermont and KTA a year, a far to fragmented trail system that may lose more before it gains, and seemingly a very upset local community both of cyclists and owners. There's better ways to spent a holiday stay and spend tons of cash of the groups I know. Certainly not paying triple to ride because my plate shows Ontario, WE pay club fees here that visitors from the eastern US etc use for free when in the area and break ' All The Same clog the trail, act like arrogant asses , break all etiquette rules, vanpark etc ' here as they do on their own trails & did since Pedro's days . There are As we have learned on this thread so many more places to ride, stay enjoy and welcoming ones! Think we'll practice the French and explore, ride, stay and spend $ there more this year along with PA, NC, Arkansas etc. Thanks for the info. Cheers
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1spd1way View Post
    He said, she said, her fault, his fault. The problem still exists.
    The solutions are complicated.
    The problem is clear.
    Too many riders in too small a place.
    The ratio of douche bags to good riders goes up.
    The question here is how to move forward?
    We said! We are our own worst enemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jozz View Post
    So let's say we play armchair quarterback, what concrete solutions would each of you implement to ease the tension in East Burke?

    I'll start. In no specific order of importance.

    - Raise daily and season pass prices for non locals. "locals" would need to be defined, town, county, state?
    - Make it illegal to spend the night in any vehicle outside of campgrounds.
    - Give landowners tax credits or financial kickbacks based on the amount of trails located on their land.
    - Limit the amount of AirBnB rental properties per sector
    - Have trail patrol on ebikes (so they can cover lots of ground) to check on passes and make sure everyone is acting according to the code of conduct. Trail patrol can be reached at all time while on duty by landowners and other users.
    - Limit the size of groups that can travel together in a bunch and enforce it.
    - Limit the amount of demo, events, and marketing by KTA.
    - Have KTA hold public board meetings once in a while and have a town and owner representative on KTA board.
    Great start! Personally I don't think groups should be bigger than 5 riders. Here around Los Angeles area, the shuttle service price includes a free bell for the bikes and the drivers make sure every rider he/she drops off has one on their bike. I've recently put a bell on my bike and it works surprisingly well.

  89. #289
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    In response to the early post about feeling unwelcome in the state of Vermont:

    There are plenty of people in and from Vermont who are happy to welcome mountain bikers to the state. I understand the anti-tourist argument -- it's one that exists anywhere there's tourism, from ski mountains to beach towns to, yes, Disneyland. Just because some people want to shut the doors does not mean that Vermont is a hostile place to visit. There's a lot on this forum about negative aspects of the growth at KTA, and I agree with some of the points that people have made , but as someone who first rode Kingdom Trails in 1997 and who grew up in the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont, my experience as a regular visitor to KT has been that folks are very friendly and welcoming.

    There's been very little "pro-KTA" feedback on this forum, and maybe that's fine, and maybe that's just the nature of internet forums, but I, for one, am thankful for what they've created. The trails are fun, and there's a nice variety. I can ride with expert bikers, and I can take beginners there. There definitely is still a community, and those of us who are members of KTA are part of that community. Of course there are communities within the larger one, but it's a bit presumptuous to suggest that there's only one opinion coming out of "the community." It's a great place to ride, even if there are clearly some challenges that need addressing.

    It's important, for me anyway, to keep in mind the positive aspects of KTA and try to support the organization through a difficult time. As a point of perspective, there was a financial scandal that went down at my favorite ski mountain, Jay Peak, a few years ago. I chose to support them through their recovery, and I'll support KTA through this one. Do they need to make some changes? Obviously. I like that they've decided to move NEMBAfest, and this could be a good step in the right direction in terms of showing landowners that they are listening to their concerns.

  90. #290
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    At this point I think this case has been tried in the court of public opinion. I think the verdict is in. Ultimately the fate of the trail system lies in the hands of the residents of the effected communities and landowners that are part of the KTA. All involved stakeholders need to come to a consensus on what their vision is for their towns. Is there an acceptable level of tourism that is both an economic benefit yet maintains the quality of life expected. This vision needs to delivered to town officials both elected and appointed as a mandate. This mandate of the community needs to be delivered to KTA. If you want to do business in our towns here are the ground rules. Agh WTF do I know!

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