Trio Of Darling Hill Landowners Wonít Allow KTA Mountain Bikers - Page 2- Mtbr.com
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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by radair View Post
    Without Current Use rules, large parcels would become cut up small parcels and you can say good bye to green space. You canít have it both ways bro.
    Current use is a farse. It is no longer part of a thriving forest products industry. A tiny percentage of the land enrolled is being managed for high quality timber. It's tax evasion and fire wood once every 10 years. Listen to the state foresters talk about it. In Vermont, 70 percent of property tax is subsidized. Current use was intended to be a temporary fix until property taxes could be figured out. Instead, it has been patched together, altered and added on to, but it no longer severs the purpose of feeding high quality timber into an industry that provides jobs in production of forest products. Not saying get rid of it, but I am saying it was part of a system where the labor has been off-shored, and the benefits of good jobs resulting from high quality timber coming in off private land are gone....so fix it.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    The solution is to be honest about industrial-level tourism. As Scott O. said, and I have been for a longer than anyone cares to listen , supply v demand. Demand is high....to the point of degradation on many level. We need to make it much more expensive to visit here, and much more affordable to live here. Residents, not customers, that's what we need big picture.

    CAP the number of tourists. Make it expensive to bring your car into the state. Require the purchase of back country insurance for everyone recreating in Vermont on open to the public trail systems or back country as part of an annual fishing license, with out-of-state visitors paying significantly more, and use those funds to support trail access and up-keep issues.

    VMBA et al begging Vermont and the Fed Gubment for grants is beyond stupid. The state is broke. The economics for recreational tourism are so cherry-picked and manipulated it's basically a scam.

    It's a simple solution, but no one wants to confront the entrenched social elite self-promoters blowing sunshine up everyone's ass about how great everything is, throwing words like community and health around when really it's about jobs for a few people, and ego stroking for those longing to be on some panel at some Back Country Commodification forum, or have their footy shown at the annual Vermont Mountain Bike circle jerk party. Cancel Culture folks. Created consent through carefully cultivated Social Media networks and Marketing Material disguised as journalism in Vt Sports, and local TV and Radio news.
    I think most folks in Southern Vemont, Barre and Rutland would say the same things about people who move to VT from CT/MA/NY/NJ. It's all the same, just different layers, nothing new here. I'm also not sure how this is an actual issue in comparison to structural level problems in VT. It's sad, frustrating, and dumb, but sort of a skin-level issue compared to generational issues.

  3. #203
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    Reading the PB article about this, and the comments from people local to the area, I understand why the landowners feel the way they do. Yeesh.
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  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaparzo View Post
    I think most folks in Southern Vemont, Barre and Rutland would say the same things about people who move to VT from CT/MA/NY/NJ. It's all the same, just different layers, nothing new here. I'm also not sure how this is an actual issue in comparison to structural level problems in VT. It's sad, frustrating, and dumb, but sort of a skin-level issue compared to generational issues.
    It's not fair or accurate to lump every transplant together. Personally, I came here for education, my wife got her second degree here. We "Put in" a tremendous amount to anything we take from. At the same time I watch Vermonters pushing these agendas of commodification.

    If someone moves to Warren with wealth, then votes against everything that's going to raise their taxes that doesn't help the community. If I move to a town like Northfield and start a business, renovate an old house, and volunteer hundreds of hours a year for development of community recreational resources, and at the school in the after school program getting local kids outside to play, I'm an asset to my community.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Reading the PB article about this, and the comments from people local to the area, I understand why the landowners feel the way they do. Yeesh.
    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/cyclis...om-trails.html

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    It's not fair or accurate to lump every transplant together. Personally, I came here for education, my wife got her second degree here. We "Put in" a tremendous amount to anything we take from. At the same time I watch Vermonters pushing these agendas of commodification.

    If someone moves to Warren with wealth, then votes against everything that's going to raise their taxes that doesn't help the community. If I move to a town like Northfield and start a business, renovate an old house, and volunteer hundreds of hours a year for development of community recreational resources, and at the school in the after school program getting local kids outside to play, I'm an asset to my community.
    Agreed, just like a lot of "tourists" are economic (or even cultural!) assets to the communities they frequent. I don't disagree with the motivation behind your ideas about how to generate revenue from them or avoid issues like this one, but I also think you have to apply that across/up-down the board if you want to fix real problems at a state level, which are not disconnected to the problems here.

    Want to move to VT or buy a 2nd home, maybe the state should apply similar ideas/regulations/taxes to those that want to do that. You can't really predict how people are going to behave so while you can applaud good residence after the fact, it might be worth capitalizing on the appeal of moving to (relatively small) areas of VT, and thus control the ill effects of those that do not behave well or simply live off their dividends/interest checks.

  7. #207
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    Is this titled 'Nearer, My God, to Thee'?

    Sign of the times. A wannabe Legal pundit offering unsolicited advice within user-generated content here and now MTB 'King of All Media' PB wanting to have done the clickbait thing.
    Makes it appear real difficult to take a Bike Ride.
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  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaparzo View Post
    Agreed, just like a lot of "tourists" are economic (or even cultural!) assets to the communities they frequent. I don't disagree with the motivation behind your ideas about how to generate revenue from them or avoid issues like this one, but I also think you have to apply that across/up-down the board if you want to fix real problems at a state level, which are not disconnected to the problems here.

    Want to move to VT or buy a 2nd home, maybe the state should apply similar ideas/regulations/taxes to those that want to do that. You can't really predict how people are going to behave so while you can applaud good residence after the fact, it might be worth capitalizing on the appeal of moving to (relatively small) areas of VT, and thus control the ill effects of those that do not behave well or simply live off their dividends/interest checks.
    Tourism services can provide one basic component of an economy. We have yet to see an honest evaluation of it's impacts. Instead we disassociate many clear impacts, like transportation and waste management for examples, and over-state potential economic impact to the point of deception. We can't have a real conversation about the future without honestly evaluating the pluses and minuses.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Tourism services can provide one basic component of an economy. We have yet to see an honest evaluation of it's impacts. Instead we disassociate many clear impacts, like transportation and waste management for examples, and over-state potential economic impact to the point of deception. We can't have a real conversation about the future without honestly evaluating the pluses and minuses.
    Good points and relevant to many communities trying to integrate tourism on a sustainable level, if that's even possible past a certain point. Tourism is one component of the issue at hand, however, and the evaluation noted would be very interesting if it also included a subjective analysis of other socioeconomic activity in VT that has affected the state for the last generation or two.

    I can't imagine you'd have the level of tourism you have today without the "gentrification" that has taken place over a much longer period of time than KT has even existed.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaparzo View Post
    ... the evaluation noted would be very interesting if it also included a subjective analysis of other socioeconomic activity in VT that has affected the state for the last generation or two.
    Examples? Not a challenge. Genuine interest.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Examples?
    I'll bring VHS of 'The Green Mile' to the meeting on the 11th.

    You bring the Popcorn Dave.
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  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Reading the PB article about this, and the comments from people local to the area, I understand why the landowners feel the way they do. Yeesh.

    I think the outside article was more to the point:

    https://www.outsideonline.com/240774...r-trail-access

    Honestly, it is their land and it looks like their patience ran out.
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  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    I think the outside article was more to the point:

    https://www.outsideonline.com/240774...r-trail-access

    Honestly, it is their land and it looks like their patience ran out.
    It's a good article.

    However the thing this article and any of the other ones fail to mention is the complete lack of ownership KTA has taken in addressing the obvious needed controls and improvements required to handle the volume they kept growing with their "marketing".

    Additionally, while rider behavior certainly is a large contributor, I have a fairly good idea a significant part of it is also how KTA treats landowners, their concerns and the community in general. On the outside they are all #thankyou-landowners but KTA has a history of overextending their "purview" of accessible land.......and when concerns are raised their true position is "if it wasn't for KT and the trails you would have no economy and this village would be dead". While the economic impact is tangible, at what cost? For some, it isn't worth it and they may be done sacrificing their weekends to unchecked crowds for the economic benefit to the few that own successful businesses.
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  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    It's a good article.

    However the thing this article and any of the other ones fail to mention is the complete lack of ownership KTA has taken in addressing the obvious needed controls and improvements required to handle the volume they kept growing with their "marketing".

    Additionally, while rider behavior certainly is a large contributor, I have a fairly good idea a significant part of it is also how KTA treats landowners, their concerns and the community in general. On the outside they are all #thankyou-landowners but KTA has a history of overextending their "purview" of accessible land.......and when concerns are raised their true position is "if it wasn't for KT and the trails you would have no economy and this village would be dead". While the economic impact is tangible, at what cost? For some, it isn't worth it and they may be done sacrificing their weekends to unchecked crowds for the economic benefit to the few that own successful businesses.
    It's really just the truth. EBurke was sold a future, and now realize 25 years downstream, nope, not worth it.

    https://reviews.mtbr.com/bentonville...-in-the-making

    From the front page...read this as if it were marketing, and be critical of all stated benefits. Also, try and notice what is not at all considered. If you're really motivated, you can try and hunt down the actual data. If you do, you realize someone got a degree to get good at twisting statistics and creating a narrative. Pull "facts" from their context, and overweight them by exaggeration and omission.
    Also, investigate the history of mass-tourism. Maybe start with the history of Green-Up day in Vermont for local flavor. You can see the future in Bentonville. It's not the economic freedom promised to residents right now. Their future is the trash and pollution of maybe a million, 2 million vacationers a year and a move 30 minutes away because the restaurant or hotel job doesn't keep pace with the locally inflated cost of everything including housing ...gentrification ....displacement ....Starbucks.

    Right now 55% out of state visits. When that gets to 90%, see how much the locals love it, if there are any left there to ask.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    It's really just the truth. EBurke was sold a future, and now realize 25 years downstream, nope, not worth it.

    https://reviews.mtbr.com/bentonville...-in-the-making

    From the front page...read this as if it were marketing, and be critical of all stated benefits. Also, try and notice what is not at all considered. If you're really motivated, you can try and hunt down the actual data. If you do, you realize someone got a degree to get good at twisting statistics and creating a narrative. Pull "facts" from their context, and overweight them by exaggeration and omission.
    Also, investigate the history of mass-tourism. Maybe start with the history of Green-Up day in Vermont for local flavor. You can see the future in Bentonville. It's not the economic freedom promised to residents right now. Their future is the trash and pollution of maybe a million, 2 million vacationers a year and a move 30 minutes away because the restaurant or hotel job doesn't keep pace with the locally inflated cost of everything including housing ...gentrification ....displacement ....Starbucks.

    Right now 55% out of state visits. When that gets to 90%, see how much the locals love it, if there are any left there to ask.
    I agree with much of what you said Dave.

    Once the toothpaste is out of the tube, there needs to be very strong feedback loops to maintain any type of balance to be very aware of where that tipping point is. The reality is that feedback loop doesn't exist in KT and when they have been provided feedback it wasn't acted on. KT became the coolest kids in the room and if you weren't "with them" you were/are a problem.

    That tipping point was reached and plowed through at a nuclear pace several years back. Bentonville, is a bit Apples and Oranges just based on the insanely deep pockets financing that whole beast of a trail system.
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  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    KT became the coolest kids in the room and if you weren't "with them" you were/are a problem.

    That tipping point was reached and plowed through at a nuclear pace several years back. Bentonville, is a bit Apples and Oranges just based on the insanely deep pockets financing that whole beast of a trail system.
    Cancel Culture. Modern day character assassination.

    I see relationship between places like KTA and the Walmart Trails as local, co-op apples to massive GMO mega-farm apples. The only difference is scale. Beyond that I think a very comparable model, except maybe ultimate local land control in the KTA
    is a check that the folks in Arkansas don't enjoy. No stopping Full-Disney type crowds down there. One could easily imagine 10 times the volume at some point 20 years from now.

    This is a little dated, but they appear to be at KTA numbers already. This reads like a regurgitation of KTA "News". The things they put $ value on as part of their total economic gains is LOL.
    https://www.waltonfamilyfoundation.o...hwest-arkansas

  17. #217
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    Wow I have never felt so unwelcome to come to a state. I have been going to Vermont most of my life and even lived there for a while.
    I think the best idea is to build a wall and make people apply for visas to enter.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    I agree with much of what you said Dave.

    Once the toothpaste is out of the tube, there needs to be very strong feedback loops to maintain any type of balance to be very aware of where that tipping point is. The reality is that feedback loop doesn't exist in KT and when they have been provided feedback it wasn't acted on. KT became the coolest kids in the room and if you weren't "with them" you were/are a problem.

    That tipping point was reached and plowed through at a nuclear pace several years back. Bentonville, is a bit Apples and Oranges just based on the insanely deep pockets financing that whole beast of a trail system.


    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Cancel Culture. Modern day character assassination.

    I see relationship between places like KTA and the Walmart Trails as local, co-op apples to massive GMO mega-farm apples. The only difference is scale. Beyond that I think a very comparable model, except maybe ultimate local land control in the KTA
    is a check that the folks in Arkansas don't enjoy. No stopping Full-Disney type crowds down there. One could easily imagine 10 times the volume at some point 20 years from now.

    This is a little dated, but they appear to be at KTA numbers already. This reads like a regurgitation of KTA "News". The things they put $ value on as part of their total economic gains is LOL.
    https://www.waltonfamilyfoundation.o...hwest-arkansas
    The only major difference is land ownership. The other is the way that the organizations interface with the community at large. There is quite a bit of work done to show how everyone benefits, whether they recreate on trails or not. As to laughing at the numbers, they are all accurate and based on established calculations.

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  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by sikocycles View Post
    Wow I have never felt so unwelcome to come to a state. I have been going to Vermont most of my life and even lived there for a while.
    I think the best idea is to build a wall and make people apply for visas to enter.
    Come down to Arkansas and ride. We'd love have you.

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  20. #220
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    I was planing 4th of July up in VT but will be changing my plans. I will look it up for sure. Was thinking NC and SC to ride.

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    The only major difference is land ownership. The other is the way that the organizations interface with the community at large. There is quite a bit of work done to show how everyone benefits, whether they recreate on trails or not. As to laughing at the numbers, they are all accurate and based on established calculations.

    Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk
    Oh, I believe a lot of work was done to show how everyone benefited. A lot of work would be needed to paint that picture when you have a long history of Tourism telling a much differet story. It would take several degrees in marketing, probably...and some well-funded "studies".

    Are you somehow associated with the Waltons or the trails?

    Can you share the calculations for exactly how they discovered 86 million dollars in health care savings for the region in 2017?

    Right off the top I see $137,000,000 in economic gains, and 90,000 visitors. That's over $1500 a visitor. Type of "Math" reveals "The Multiplier Effect". Where every dollar spent is suddenly $10 dollars. It's an economic THEORY latched onto by folks who could no longer the sell idea of Trickle Down, but needed a new magic bullet to hush the "Bottom Up" proponents. Let's not, as the Waltons, just directly spend on health care, education, ect. in our home town area. Lets instead invest in bringing affluent tourists here, based on the premise that all the money they spend will help everyone. It's literally a microcosm of how Multinationals and the World Bank enslave third world countries. Sadly, it helps large land owners and investors, destroys the environment, and locks the locals into service industry jobs with no economic future. Eventually they will have to import labor like ski resorts ect. Pick a global tourist destination, and show me a different story. It can't be done.

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by sikocycles View Post
    I was planing 4th of July up in VT but will be changing my plans. I will look it up for sure. Was thinking NC and SC to ride.
    Weather should be perfect in July for long rides.

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Oh, I believe a lot of work was done to show how everyone benefited. A lot of work would be needed to paint that picture when you have a long history of Tourism telling a much differet story. It would take several degrees in marketing, probably...and some well-funded "studies".

    Are you somehow associated with the Waltons or the trails?

    Can you share the calculations for exactly how they discovered 86 million dollars in health care savings for the region in 2017?
    That's the thing, perception can be reversed. It just takes presenting the data in a way that everyone involved can see the positive impact even if they are not directly involved.

    To get a little less factually concrete that has resulted in organically changing behaviors. Most locals do their absolute best to model great trail etiquette. People from out of town are embraced, welcomed into group rides, or even shuttles, so that they can have a better time. We have Facebook pages set up to help them make the most of their trips. Understanding the macro economic impact to the region has resulted in a buy in from everyone, not just users, that is amazing.

    So, to answer I am not directly associated with either. I do volunteer has a steward to handle minor maintenance issues on a mile long section of trail that is assigned to me. However, indirectly, anyone who owns property near the trails is completely bought in as we see our property values rise due to AirBnBs or just the premium upcharge for access.

    The numbers came from a study similar to this RAND one, https://www.rand.org/randeurope/rese...ty-levels.html

    I'm on vacation with just a phone and a poor connection so that's the best I can do at the moment.

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  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    That's the thing, perception can be reversed. It just takes presenting the data in a way that everyone involved can see the positive impact even if they are not directly involved.

    To get a little less factually concrete that has resulted in organically changing behaviors. Most locals do their absolute best to model great trail etiquette. People from out of town are embraced, welcomed into group rides, or even shuttles, so that they can have a better time. We have Facebook pages set up to help them make the most of their trips. Understanding the macro economic impact to the region has resulted in a buy in from everyone, not just users, that is amazing.

    So, to answer I am not directly associated with either. I do volunteer has a steward to handle minor maintenance issues on a mile long section of trail that is assigned to me. However, indirectly, anyone who owns property near the trails is completely bought in as we see our property values rise due to AirBnBs or just the premium upcharge for access.

    The numbers came from a study similar to this RAND one, https://www.rand.org/randeurope/rese...ty-levels.html

    I'm on vacation with just a phone and a poor connection so that's the best I can do at the moment.

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    I wonder what percentage of Northwest Arkansas residents have a house and resources that allow them to Air B n B their residents, trail side, or not. I wonder what percentage of the population can afford a $3500 dollar and up pedal bike?

    That Rand Study is so Opaque, the numbers it spits out are meaningless. Again, if the Waltons wanted to be charitable to Arkansas as their home-state, they could. Their reality among their peers is they give very very little.

  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    I wonder what percentage of Northwest Arkansas residents have a house and resources that allow them to Air B n B their residents, trail side, or not. I wonder what percentage of the population can afford a $3500 dollar and up pedal bike?

    That Rand Study is so Opaque, the numbers it spits out are meaningless. Again, if the Waltons wanted to be charitable to Arkansas as their home-state, they could. Their reality among their peers is they give very very little.
    You wonder a lot about things that would shock you. Quite a few people in NWA play the AirBnB game whether it's a separate property, walk-in basement or just listing on weekends they are out of town. Why does someone have to have a $3500 bike? Almost all the trails here are multi-use. Trail running is huge in the area.

    The study isn't that opaque. Healthy people have more discretionary income due to not having a medical bill burden. Healthy people will also generally be willing to purchase more expensive items to maintain their enjoyment, health or both, this site is a study in that. Finally, healthy people put less strain on the local economy due to allowing resources to be conserved and directed where needed. There are also some actuary level calculations that could be done but this isn't the medium.

    I think the Walton family gives more than most people know or that they let on about. They have multiple charitable arms, some of which are not linked directly to them. I can think of two off the top of my head where the donation not being publicized was part of the conditions of the donation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sikocycles View Post
    I was planing 4th of July up in VT but will be changing my plans. I will look it up for sure. Was thinking NC and SC to ride.
    There are well over a dozen other places to ride in VT that superior to KT. Better trails and no crowds.

    Besides the family friendly aspect, it still boggles my mind that when people think of mountain biking in Vermont they think KT is the best option.
    Vermonter - bikes, beers and skis.

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    I didn't read the whole thread. I do find it humorous that some of the participants in this thread are saying "this was bound to happen", but seem to be taking the same approach (let's make official trails on tiny parcels around Burlington and beyond. It won't get overrun with riders. Why does every little set of trails have to be sanitized, publicized, social mediatized, mtb rider clubbed to death? As you point out the miscues of others, check out what you have been up to.
    Ok I'll leave now.

  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    It's really just the truth. EBurke was sold a future, and now realize 25 years downstream, nope, not worth it.

    https://reviews.mtbr.com/bentonville...-in-the-making

    From the front page...read this as if it were marketing, and be critical of all stated benefits. Also, try and notice what is not at all considered. If you're really motivated, you can try and hunt down the actual data. If you do, you realize someone got a degree to get good at twisting statistics and creating a narrative. Pull "facts" from their context, and overweight them by exaggeration and omission.
    Also, investigate the history of mass-tourism. Maybe start with the history of Green-Up day in Vermont for local flavor. You can see the future in Bentonville. It's not the economic freedom promised to residents right now. Their future is the trash and pollution of maybe a million, 2 million vacationers a year and a move 30 minutes away because the restaurant or hotel job doesn't keep pace with the locally inflated cost of everything including housing ...gentrification ....displacement ....Starbucks.

    Right now 55% out of state visits. When that gets to 90%, see how much the locals love it, if there are any left there to ask.

    All good points and I think it is important to understand what you are getting into. I lived in the UK for years and the MTB scene had a dramatic impact upon the economy of Wales.

    http://www.outdoorrecreationni.com/w...March-2014.pdf

    One line from this document always struck me - although it has nothing to do with MTBing:

    "The majority of visitors express an intention to return to Wales for activities however certain groups are discouraged from undertaking activities such as kayaking in Wales due to confusion and dispute over access to land and water. Access is therefore a key issue to be tackled in order to encourage further success of the sector in Wales."

    The big difference is that there is very little in Wales (in these areas). People have little to no money and everything is about tourism. But it helped and the local economy has reaped great rewards.
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  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    You wonder a lot about things that would shock you. Quite a few people in NWA play the AirBnB game whether it's a separate property, walk-in basement or just listing on weekends they are out of town. Why does someone have to have a $3500 bike? Almost all the trails here are multi-use. Trail running is huge in the area.

    The study isn't that opaque. Healthy people have more discretionary income due to not having a medical bill burden. Healthy people will also generally be willing to purchase more expensive items to maintain their enjoyment, health or both, this site is a study in that. Finally, healthy people put less strain on the local economy due to allowing resources to be conserved and directed where needed. There are also some actuary level calculations that could be done but this isn't the medium.

    I think the Walton family gives more than most people know or that they let on about. They have multiple charitable arms, some of which are not linked directly to them. I can think of two off the top of my head where the donation not being publicized was part of the conditions of the donation.

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    It's clear you haven't read about that Waltons. They give very very little, even when compared to much more modest demographics...they are, frankly one of the greediest families among their earning group, and this is not hard to find out.
    C'mon man, a Walton funded study putting such a monetary value on something as intangible as Health of a region? Claiming it as "Accurate" is like searing to a lie. That is a great example of the spin. There are 3 kinds of lies. Lies. Damn Lies. And Statistics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    There are well over a dozen other places to ride in VT that superior to KT. Better trails and no crowds.

    Besides the family friendly aspect, it still boggles my mind that when people think of mountain biking in Vermont they think KT is the best option.
    ...and the threats to take their money elsewhere are an example of the entitelment and self-importance that created the issues at KTA. Lol to me. Don't let the door hit your behind on the way out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    It's clear you haven't read about that Waltons. They give very very little, even when compared to much more modest demographics...they are, frankly one of the greediest families among their earning group, and this is not hard to find out.
    C'mon man, a Walton funded study putting such a monetary value on something as intangible as Health of a region? Claiming it as "Accurate" is like searing to a lie. That is a great example of the spin. There are 3 kinds of lies. Lies. Damn Lies. And Statistics.
    Or, it's clear, you've only read about the Waltons and have no first hand experience with them and their causes. Sorry, I'll take my living in Bentonville firsthand experiences over anything you can read. Like I said not saying who it's from ends up being a condition of many of their donations.

    Also, the economic impact of a healthy populace is a well documented fact. I understand that you don't want to admit it for what now appears to be two reasons. The first is that you are for some reason anti-tourist, which is baffling due to the opportunities it opens up when managed correctly, and your dislike of the Waltons.

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    With the thread entering a 2nd Time Zone (CST) in greater-Arkansas, I'll re-state the obvious where having cantankerous goings-on lead to this swift action disallowing Cyclists 'tis the last feather that breaks the horse's back; the final straw.
    So - the Previous Straws, some may ask?? There's 8454 of 'em across 846 pages within another
    forum.

    Hadn't had to conclude anything other than Bill Stenger & Ariel Quiros as having previously indicated capacity to a Ponzi masterpiece during the mid-1990's w/ a Trial, Conviction and conclusion to the Criminal Investigation. Should there be holdouts and unwashed-brainwashed masses within the ranks at KTA then the valley truly smells like rotten eggs.

    Yet somehow it's entirely laughable.

    A former friend, small cycling business owner in Vermont got brought up to speed one day regarding chatter and there being potential-of far reaching scheme; a flagging w/ someone I'd trusted. I recall starting the conversation with 'some dipshits w/ knowledge of a scheme that ensnared ESPN's Founder here in SWFL are taking an interest in Burke Resort' or something like that. Honestly I forget at this point, but I'm satisfied if that's the jist.
    The mechanics were addressed to the SEC in 2001/2002 and, given reception.

    However, what anti-anti, Down Home, etc. image bringing me further-north to live and work in Vermont, contrasting then-unforeseeable inflationary investment spending & resulting consequence(s) in Burke became a manufactured image. Lone-source to a falling out 10 years ago.
    The cost is not anything similar, or at all able to be considered a breach like agreement between the residents of Burke and KTA. Merely illustrates to where 'Do the Right Thing' applies to both the Apple and to the Orange. To the Watermelon and the Grape. To Pizza and Caffeine Free Diet Coke. A Shark Sandwich and some Banana Pudding.

    You get the idea: this development sucks./
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    If I told you I met Bill Cosby once and he was a nice guy, would that mean he wasn't actually a rapist? https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoc.../#37d0f7197d52
    Yes, I understand that this report was done by an anti walmart group, but public or not, donations are part of a tax return.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    If I told you I met Bill Cosby once and he was a nice guy, would that mean he wasn't actually a rapist? https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoc.../#37d0f7197d52
    Yes, I understand that this report was done by an anti walmart group, but public or not, donations are part of a tax return.
    That would be a great find, except it's already been covered. They do much more than just the WFF. So sure, if you're basing your entire argument from a biased piece that uses its examination of but a single charitable organization, all while only looking for donations from personal accounts while excluding donations through other majority owned entities I can see how you arrived at that conclusion but it does not mean it reflects reality.

    Actually, if you think about it it is horribly disingenuous and intellectually dishonest. They give them credit towards their net worth due to holdings but then exclude the same holdings when talking about donations. Nope, no ulterior motive or slant there at all.


    Also, it just clicked this needed to be called out too. You using a report that names the children shows a lack of understanding about the grandkid's role in all of this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Owners getting compensated also exposes them to liability under the Landowner Liability Act. Monetizing MTBing makes it commercial use, so assuming enough land is involved, which there is at KT, even considering it's status as part of the VT trail system, makes Act 250 applicable. It is expensive to go through Act 250, and it affects future sale and development of people's land. If host landowner are suddenly required to go through the permitting process, it could trigger more pull-outs, hut that is just pure speculation. I'm still super interested in hearing from the NRB on Victory, because it will be very hard to explain how VHT is required to permit but KTA is not.
    There has to be a legal vehicle for covering owner liability. Maybe KT becomes an operating company and leases the trails. Highland Mountain bike sends a downhiller for a helicopter ride on a backboard every week and they seem to be able to operate. I think KT needs to upscale really quickly so that they have the resources to start thinking like a real company and stop with the small mindedness. As far as Act 250 goes, again, if they scaled up to the right level they could manage this. Honestly I dont get Act 250 other than its another piece of old hippy legislation that keeps Vermonters highly taxed, backward, and impoverished relative to other states in New England.

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    Damn Dave we get it. I think a lot of folks are scared about widespread development and gentrification that can come with some of these things (like trails). But sitting on the sidelines trying to hide your secret stash won't fix the problem and won't last long. Maybe your lifetime, but what about the folks after you?

    Trust me a lot of people are thinking about these things instead of whining and saying the only option is to hole up in your local woods threatening outsiders.

    I know we can't agree, but many people do, that more trails are pretty damn good for communities for a wide variety of reasons. For all the NWAs and KTs there are thousands of other projects going on that truly have amazing impacts for locals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceboxsteve View Post
    Damn Dave we get it. I think a lot of folks are scared about widespread development and gentrification that can come with some of these things (like trails). But sitting on the sidelines trying to hide your secret stash won't fix the problem and won't last long. Maybe your lifetime, but what about the folks after you?

    Trust me a lot of people are thinking about these things instead of whining and saying the only option is to hole up in your local woods threatening outsiders.

    I know we can't agree, but many people do, that more trails are pretty damn good for communities for a wide variety of reasons. For all the NWAs and KTs there are thousands of other projects going on that truly have amazing impacts for locals.

    I think this is a fair assesssment of the overall situation as clealry Dave's paradigm is on one end and the rosey picture of tourism as the great savior for Vermont and many other rural areas is on the other end.

    IMHO there has to be a balance. KT did bring significant life to a dying/dead town and really cluster of towns when you factor in the impacted area as a whole. The problem is the tipping point and balance point was blown through at warp speed several years back and KTA continued to throw gas on an already burning fire and here we are.

    Where I do agree with Dave throughout the years here has been on trail building, sanitization and commodification of trails against the wishes of the original trail builders etc. While on one hand I have seen the value in a TrailForks situation for navigation, I would also be beside myself if a small non-marketed trails system I built and was the primary steward of ended up mapped up to hell on TrailForks, MTBProject and friggin' Strava. I don't like the way VMBA "gathered" trail systems initially and I think toes may have been stepped on and that is a while different saga.

    Regarding KT specifically, it is a leadership issue, stewardship issue and community relations issue. KT is sitting still watching and enjoying how the various media outlets are placing the blame on riders so the MTB community as a whole is to blame. Sure, there is plenty of blame to land on riders, the group mess every weekend in KT brings out the worst in our community as far as group-think and behavior. BUT.....KT created, this, watched this evolve over the years, did relatively nothing AND marketed the hell out of the place throwing more gas on the fire.

    Perhaps we all should be following the money better here. What did KTA do with the thousand and thousands of government grants over the years? Did they leverage those grants to ease parking? Congestion? Traffic issues? Address landonwer complaints? Invest in trail patrols to ensure their visitors (who KTA collected $ from) were respecting the 100 landowners and community as a whole? If not, where did the $ go? What did they do for 25 years? Who got paid? Where are the minutes from the public meetings? (hint I don't believer there were any).
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    I think this is a fair assesssment of the overall situation as clealry Dave's paradigm is on one end and the rosey picture of tourism as the great savior for Vermont and many other rural areas is on the other end.

    IMHO there has to be a balance. KT did bring significant life to a dying/dead town and really cluster of towns when you factor in the impacted area as a whole. The problem is the tipping point and balance point was blown through at warp speed several years back and KTA continued to throw gas on an already burning fire and here we are.

    Where I do agree with Dave throughout the years here has been on trail building, sanitization and commodification of trails against the wishes of the original trail builders etc. While on one hand I have seen the value in a TrailForks situation for navigation, I would also be beside myself if a small non-marketed trails system I built and was the primary steward of ended up mapped up to hell on TrailForks, MTBProject and friggin' Strava. I don't like the way VMBA "gathered" trail systems initially and I think toes may have been stepped on and that is a while different saga.

    Regarding KT specifically, it is a leadership issue, stewardship issue and community relations issue. KT is sitting still watching and enjoying how the various media outlets are placing the blame on riders so the MTB community as a whole is to blame. Sure, there is plenty of blame to land on riders, the group mess every weekend in KT brings out the worst in our community as far as group-think and behavior. BUT.....KT created, this, watched this evolve over the years, did relatively nothing AND marketed the hell out of the place throwing more gas on the fire.

    Perhaps we all should be following the money better here. What did KTA do with the thousand and thousands of government grants over the years? Did they leverage those grants to ease parking? Congestion? Traffic issues? Address landonwer complaints? Invest in trail patrols to ensure their visitors (who KTA collected $ from) were respecting the 100 landowners and community as a whole? If not, where did the $ go? What did they do for 25 years? Who got paid? Where are the minutes from the public meetings? (hint I don't believer there were any).

    I agree with a lot of what you've said here, but probably would not want to go down the follow the money path. While KTA's actions could be described as reactive, I would want to give them the benefit of the doubt on how the money was managed. All that trail and bridge work doesn't come cheap. Hindsight being what it is, it sure seems a more proactive approach in working with landowners would have helped. But, your points on applying future processes (given the rider population explosion) are valid. Riders and KTA are going to have to work together to keep other landowners from pulling out. It's a "we" problem,

    A couple of "in an alternate universe" questions:
    What if everything remained the same, and the general feelings from landowners were "Wow, there sure are a lot more riders here, but they're all so damn polite". (?)

    How would the residents react if the Quiros' and QBurke master plan for the valley actually happened? (Golf course, Olympic swimming facility, Miami Vice style night club etc.) I imagine East Burke would have looked a lot like Stowe and all its trappings in the span of a decade. It's great that the scheme was busted, but the thought of what could have happened may be in the minds of locals, and along comes another threat in a booming rider population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k1creeker View Post
    I agree with a lot of what you've said here, but probably would not want to go down the follow the money path. While KTA's actions could be described as reactive, I would want to give them the benefit of the doubt on how the money was managed. All that trail and bridge work doesn't come cheap. Hindsight being what it is, it sure seems a more proactive approach in working with landowners would have helped. But, your points on applying future processes (given the rider population explosion) are valid. Riders and KTA are going to have to work together to keep other landowners from pulling out. It's a "we" problem,

    A couple of "in an alternate universe" questions:
    What if everything remained the same, and the general feelings from landowners were "Wow, there sure are a lot more riders here, but they're all so damn polite". (?)

    How would the residents react if the Quiros' and QBurke master plan for the valley actually happened? (Golf course, Olympic swimming facility, Miami Vice style night club etc.) I imagine East Burke would have looked a lot like Stowe and all its trappings in the span of a decade. It's great that the scheme was busted, but the thought of what could have happened may be in the minds of locals, and along comes another threat in a booming rider population.

    R.E, the ski mountain. It IS great that the scheme got busted but the ski resort itself is a very serious problem. It cannot be sold out of receivership until the requisite number of jobs have been created, and only THEN can it be handed off to be put up for sale, Jay is further along in the process and still has nothing definitive in terms of a sale. Very likely that the Burke ski area stays in this limbo for several years. Not great.

  40. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokee300 View Post
    R.E, the ski mountain. It IS great that the scheme got busted but the ski resort itself is a very serious problem. It cannot be sold out of receivership until the requisite number of jobs have been created, and only THEN can it be handed off to be put up for sale, Jay is further along in the process and still has nothing definitive in terms of a sale. Very likely that the Burke ski area stays in this limbo for several years. Not great.
    And even with a very solid snow year last season, the mountain and hotel did not make money according to the reeiver.

    If they can't make money in a year like that......well the model has to be questioned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    And even with a very solid snow year last season, the mountain and hotel did not make money according to the reeiver.

    If they can't make money in a year like that......well the model has to be questioned.
    Yep, I REALLY don't want to think this way, but I can't help but wonder if things would have been different with Quiros. I know it was a VERY dirty deal, but things seem pretty bleak at the moment.

  42. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    KT is sitting still watching and enjoying how the various media outlets are placing the blame on riders so the MTB community as a whole is to blame. any).
    Was the use of the word Ďenjoyingí simply your choice of phrase or are you aware of any evidence that they see the deflection of blame as a positive. I hope it is the former.

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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    Perhaps we all should be following the money better here. What did KTA do with the thousand and thousands of government grants over the years? Did they leverage those grants to ease parking? Congestion? Traffic issues? Address landonwer complaints? Invest in trail patrols to ensure their visitors (who KTA collected $ from) were respecting the 100 landowners and community as a whole? If not, where did the $ go? What did they do for 25 years? Who got paid? Where are the minutes from the public meetings? (hint I don't believer there were any).
    I cant tell whether you are questioning that the money was not spent in the most productive ways or whether you think there is some wacky conspiracy here.

    I don't think there is any kind of conspiracy going on but people who have never been responsible for anything in their lives fall for conspiracy theories because they have so little control of their own lives.

  44. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endosch2 View Post
    I cant tell whether you are questioning that the money was not spent in the most productive ways or whether you think there is some wacky conspiracy here.

    I don't think there is any kind of conspiracy going on but people who have never been responsible for anything in their lives fall for conspiracy theories because they have so little control of their own lives.
    Fair question.

    I co-managed a $6.5B budget, I don't fall for conspiracy theories when it comes to money. KT received sizable chunks of grant $ over the years. Where was that spent? How was that spent? Knowing what the community was struggling with every week, did they deploy any of those funds to address the issues brought to them or did they use it purely for tourist marketing to throw more gas on the fire of over crowding? Who received consulting fees etc.? Just basic questions when you are dealing with a lack of transparency and some things don't pass the sniff test.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike93 View Post
    Was the use of the word Ďenjoyingí simply your choice of phrase or are you aware of any evidence that they see the deflection of blame as a positive. I hope it is the former.
    Direct evidence they are "enjoying"? No. Choice of words based on the fact they sat back and watched this situation develop and burn out of control for a number of years and never acted on feedback and concerns of the community. The fact they have not taken responsibility or addressed the long standing issues and take some blame on themselves for over a month now shows me (and many others) they are clearly more comfortable allowing the court of public opinion run with the "damn MTBers can't behave".

    Sure, behavior is a large issue. The other side of that is the need (and lack of) strong stewardship and community relations management.
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    River 19 - I think we have exchanged ideas on this on various FB pages. I agree the same KTA bury the head in the sand mentality seems to be at work in the face of criticism of the organization and overwhelming support for the community and landowners. The money angle is interesting from an accountability standpoint. I would also question if conflicts of interest exist among the board of KTA, town officials and influential business owners. Some people are making money off this mess. On a more positive note here is a link to an organization that found itself in a similar situation and did the right thing in short order. No year long impact study required.

    https://www.crystalmountainresort.co...an-open-letter

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    The money spent on those trails should have gone to employees. Instead we all pay for those trails through support of the working poor that are forced into Walmart employment because our economic abandonment the working man in the decoupling of labor and value. That project, and the way the MTB community at large, and the industry it's self pay homage to them really speaks most clearly to the disconnect MTB suffers from, and is a further intensification of the disconnect currently devouring the KTA. Despite the glaring juxtaposition of a 75 million dollar trail system and fine art museum located in the midst of some of the harshest poverty in the East, no one dare question the disconnect. Folks drive in in their $100,000 vans with 30 thousand dollars of bike sticking off the back like the nickles they spend in Appalachia are going to replace their Main Street businesses, their lost industry or pay for their child's education. Nope. Scam. Tourism is what happens to your area when you loose a war. Literally. Where you see it becoming a significant part of the economy is where labor lost theirs decades ago.

    Tourism, and the associated service industry jobs are economic enslavement, and wealth extraction on the back of exploited labor, destruction of culture, and the environment.
    Wut?

  48. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike93 View Post
    River 19 - I think we have exchanged ideas on this on various FB pages. I agree the same KTA bury the head in the sand mentality seems to be at work in the face of criticism of the organization and overwhelming support for the community and landowners. The money angle is interesting from an accountability standpoint. I would also question if conflicts of interest exist among the board of KTA, town officials and influential business owners. Some people are making money off this mess. On a more positive note here is a link to an organization that found itself in a similar situation and did the right thing in short order. No year long impact study required.

    https://www.crystalmountainresort.co...an-open-letter
    No doubt we probably have. My messaging has been similar in both places as I don't really hide from a good discussion.

    Glad you brought up Crystal Mountain as I didn't have the energy or time earlier as I was in the office. That story you linked to is a story of an Accountable Organization. I work for an Accountable Organization as well and we due to our size, business and place in our industry have to own everything we do. There is no hiding, if we mess up, we own it, we admit a mistake, we clearly articulate the plan to fix whatever the issue is and what steps have been taken to ensure it never happens again.

    KTA still has yet to do that. About anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike93 View Post
    River 19 - I think we have exchanged ideas on this on various FB pages. I agree the same KTA bury the head in the sand mentality seems to be at work in the face of criticism of the organization and overwhelming support for the community and landowners. The money angle is interesting from an accountability standpoint. I would also question if conflicts of interest exist among the board of KTA, town officials and influential business owners. Some people are making money off this mess. On a more positive note here is a link to an organization that found itself in a similar situation and did the right thing in short order. No year long impact study required.

    https://www.crystalmountainresort.co...an-open-letter
    I was actually part of that situation. a drive that would normally take 1.5-2 hrs (1 hr with no weather or traffic) took 5 hours only to be shut out of access road leading to the resort. After another 30min of waiting at the bottom of the access road they finally allowed single cars up the road when a car was leaving the resort. It was very frustrating as a pass holder.

    But it sure was nice to get a messages that they were looking at short term and long term solutions. not just silence.

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    Sorry - delete derail...
    Last edited by Bowridge; 1 Week Ago at 07:31 AM. Reason: thread derail

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bowridge View Post
    Should have let the 'scheme' continue - once it got shut down, money flow stopped & now everyone is pissed about unfinished projects / unpaid contractors / limbo / etc....
    Crappy situation.

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    And is anyone shocked at the latest KT FB post? Some arseholes rode the closed trails.

    First, this sucks.

    Second, in reality the riders were most likely locals as it is highly unlikely anyone drove up mid week for crappy conditions. And no I don't "know" it was locals but I would put some $ on it.....which brings me to...

    This isn't hard to figure out or hard to put some action against. Trail Cameras. Use some of that $1M income and pick up a couple grand in cameras..... Victory Hill had this issue with rogue riders ignoring closed signs when the trails were muddy as hell, they rode, they messed things up, they and their license were caught on camera. Guess what color the license plates were? Green.....and not the light green ones....

    This really doesn't have to be that hard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    And is anyone shocked at the latest KT FB post? Some arseholes rode the closed trails.

    First, this sucks.

    Second, in reality the riders were most likely locals as it is highly unlikely anyone drove up mid week for crappy conditions. And no I don't "know" it was locals but I would put some $ on it.....which brings me to...

    This isn't hard to figure out or hard to put some action against. Trail Cameras. Use some of that $1M income and pick up a couple grand in cameras..... Victory Hill had this issue with rogue riders ignoring closed signs when the trails were muddy as hell, they rode, they messed things up, they and their license were caught on camera. Guess what color the license plates were? Green.....and not the light green ones....

    This really doesn't have to be that hard.
    I can't seem to find it on their page

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    He said, she said, her fault, his fault. The problem still exists.
    The solutions are complicated.
    The problem is clear.
    Too many riders in too small a place.
    The ratio of douche bags to good riders goes up.
    The question here is how to move forward?

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    So let's say we play armchair quarterback, what concrete solutions would each of you implement to ease the tension in East Burke?

    I'll start. In no specific order of importance.

    - Raise daily and season pass prices for non locals. "locals" would need to be defined, town, county, state?
    - Make it illegal to spend the night in any vehicle outside of campgrounds.
    - Give landowners tax credits or financial kickbacks based on the amount of trails located on their land.
    - Limit the amount of AirBnB rental properties per sector
    - Have trail patrol on ebikes (so they can cover lots of ground) to check on passes and make sure everyone is acting according to the code of conduct. Trail patrol can be reached at all time while on duty by landowners and other users.
    - Limit the size of groups that can travel together in a bunch and enforce it.
    - Limit the amount of demo, events, and marketing by KTA.
    - Have KTA hold public board meetings once in a while and have a town and owner representative on KTA board.

  56. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jozz View Post
    So let's say we play armchair quarterback, what concrete solutions would each of you implement to ease the tension in East Burke?

    I'll start. In no specific order of importance.

    - Raise daily and season pass prices for non locals. "locals" would need to be defined, town, county, state?
    - Make it illegal to spend the night in any vehicle outside of campgrounds.
    - Give landowners tax credits or financial kickbacks based on the amount of trails located on their land.
    - Limit the amount of AirBnB rental properties per sector
    - Have trail patrol on ebikes (so they can cover lots of ground) to check on passes and make sure everyone is acting according to the code of conduct. Trail patrol can be reached at all time while on duty by landowners and other users.
    - Limit the size of groups that can travel together in a bunch and enforce it.
    - Limit the amount of demo, events, and marketing by KTA.
    - Have KTA hold public board meetings once in a while and have a town and owner representative on KTA board.
    Solid start.

    - Invest in a pass system with bar codes that are associated with a picture ID and name, arm the trail patrols with the ability to scan and issue warnings or outright revocation of passes. Lose a pass, no KT for you for a year.

    - Warnings can be issued for any rule infraction that is deemed appropriate....group of 12-15 riders, they all get a warning. Park illegally, warning. Second offense no pass.

    - Explore booting illegally parked vehicles, to remove the boot come on down to the KT office and have a chat.

    - Trail cameras around sensitive areas

    - Establish a leadership both within the KTA day to day but also the Board that has some new blood and actual experience running something of this nature. The current situation has proven to many there has been a gross failure of leadership, awareness and a gross over playing of their hand.

    - Establish a Steering Committee comprised of Riders at large, non-riding community members, LANDOWNERS, a possibly a representative of local business ownership if conflicts can be avoided.

    - Currently "membership" has no real privilege other than not spending the equivalent of 100 day passes.......some input on how their grants, resources etc. are allocated might go a long way

    - ACCOUNTABILITY........be an accountable organization. Over a month in and no statement of accountability, no clarification statements, just PR blunders providing an outstanding case study in what not to do for a Community Relations class or Marketing class.

    - Rethink and Restructure the day to day positions. No Marketing position or event coordination is needed as a primary role. Instead replace with seasoned local Community Relations and Landowner Relations positions as clearly there is an opportunity there.

    - They need to establish or make public their bylaws and road map for the future. Without guiding principals you cannot tell when you have strayed off the path until you hit the iceberg like we have.

    - Speaking of events.......involve the landowners and impacted community members and get their input.....they LIVE HERE!!! Maybe ask their permission before setting up an "Event" on their land. (focus on this)

    - What about supporting your customers? To date KTA has allowed several media outlets lay 100% of the blame for this situation on riders........ we all know that isn't true.

    Those are literally just some thoughts off the top of my head in addition to Jozz's solid start.

    Let's be clear here. Look at their Tax Forms....they have taken in Millions over the past few years, trail cams, trail patrols and proper parking enforcement etc. was well within their budget. They chose to "invest" in other places, one of them specifically being marketing the heck out of the area. Which, 99% of people realize overcrowding is at the heart of the issue so, how is the ROI on that investment looking?
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    Doesn't limiting AirBnB limit the ability of locals to profit from the situation by renting their spare bedrooms? If anything, that area needs more accommodations and camp sites. Maybe that would cut down on illegal camping and VanLife.

    Love the idea of trail cams. Make riders wear a big number like a race bib so that violators caught on the cameras can be identified.

    In all my years there, I've never seen a trail patrol. Maybe putting a person at each of the 2-3 major trails intersections on the weekends would create a "presence" and a sense of patrol. Those people could check passes, break up large groups, and assist as necessary. Make sure they wear something official like bright orange vests or something.

    But as much as I hate to admit it, limiting the number of day passes and limiting the number of riders on the trail may be required. And that will require enforcement.

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  58. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jozz View Post
    So let's say we play armchair quarterback, what concrete solutions would each of you implement to ease the tension in East Burke?
    Add rocks and roots to the trails.

    Should cut visitor numbers in half, at least.
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  59. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by connolm View Post
    Doesn't limiting AirBnB limit the ability of locals to profit from the situation by renting their spare bedrooms? If anything, that area needs more accommodations and camp sites. Maybe that would cut down on illegal camping and VanLife.
    I dont think this will help. I think these people like the "glamour" of vanlife and "free and illegal camping" You see this all over social media. "how to camp for free nonsense"

  60. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by connolm View Post
    Doesn't limiting AirBnB limit the ability of locals to profit from the situation by renting their spare bedrooms? If anything, that area needs more accommodations and camp sites. Maybe that would cut down on illegal camping and VanLife.
    My suggestions comes from afar and without extensive local knowledge. I based these suggestion on actions we are taking locally to limit tourism to our network. The network I manage is in a community similar to E.Burke and KTA has become a text book example of what not to do.

    Our AirBnB situation is that non locals buy houses to rent to hordes of people that disrupt the peace and quiet of our small town. Partys, Firework all summer at all time, trash, you name it. What drunk humans do best. Of course if it is renting a spare room to help pay for the VT high tax rate I concur. But if non locals are using rental properties to make $$ and then disrupting the peace in a neighborhood, then it becomes a problem.

  61. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by connolm View Post
    But as much as I hate to admit it, limiting the number of day passes and limiting the number of riders on the trail may be required. And that will require enforcement.

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    Quite a few ski resorts limit tickets sales on crowded days for various reasons. This is a no brainer place to start. Weekends tickets sales should be limited Memorial day through Columbus day.

    Post this message everywhere, offer advanced online ticket sales and if you show up and its sold out, tough sh!t.

    KT needs to start looking at running things like a ski resort to create accountability and regain some control.
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  62. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by sikocycles View Post
    I dont think this will help. I think these people like the "glamour" of vanlife and "free and illegal camping" You see this all over social media. "how to camp for free nonsense"
    Agree on the glam aspect

    The thing people fail to understand or care about when they watch BKXC, Seth, Phil, Punter, BCPOV, Alex etc. run around the US and ride awesome trails living in their vans is that much of it is done west of the Mississippi River.....In the Northeast and especially New England, much of the land is privately owned and the public land is conservatively controlled, meaning heavy on controls against overnight camping, fires, fun and free anything.

    This isn't out West with BLM land or Crown land for the Canucks......#Vanlife in EB means you are most likely camping on someone else's land or camping illegally on public land or without the necessary permits.

    We camp throughout the country....pay the $15-50/night for a friggin' campsite or go out west for your real adventure and stop playing YouTube hero in your van in our backyards......you are messing it up for the rest of the people that ride and live there.

    It's disrespectful as hell.
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    Vermont charges a higher R.E. Tax to non-residents(2n home owners) Additionally there is a 9% short term rental tax that is applied in vacation rental situations. Some towns, Killington for example, impose another 1% tax on short term rentals that is kept exclusively for the town, not sure if Burke and Lyndon do this.

  64. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by sikocycles View Post
    I dont think this will help. I think these people like the "glamour" of vanlife and "free and illegal camping" You see this all over social media. "how to camp for free nonsense"
    This past summer I saw tons of these "vanlife" bros around Vermont. Just about every time I rode Cochran's, Millstone, Perry. etc. there would be at least a couple Sprinters with way out of state plates and likely ignoring the "no overnight parking" or "no camping" sign posted.

    Another larger factor is that mountain biking in Vermont is becoming very popular on a national level. I chatted with 2 guys from CO this summer who were bumming around the state riding bikes because they heard about all the hype around VT trails.
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  65. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    pay the $15-50/night for a friggin' campsite or go out west for your real adventure and stop playing YouTube hero in your van in our backyards......you are messing it up for the rest of the people that ride and live there.

    It's disrespectful as hell.
    But again, that would be pointing the finger the wrong way like they are doing to explain why trails are closing. There wouldn't be a Vanlife/camping problem if the city/parking owners did not allow it. I am one of those Van owner and I do camp for free most of the time, out West and on the East coast. There is some legal boondocking options in VT when you know where to look. Just respect the rules and be clean an quiet. We've been doing it for 20 years and never had a problem with anyone. It has become nearly impossible to camp at KTA anyway unless you want to plan your vacation time 2 months in advance.

  66. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jozz View Post
    But again, that would be pointing the finger the wrong way like they are doing to explain why trails are closing. There wouldn't be a Vanlife/camping problem if the city/parking owners did not allow it. I am one of those Van owner and I do camp for free most of the time, out West and on the East coast. There is some legal boondocking options in VT when you know where to look. Just respect the rules and be clean an quiet. We've been doing it for 20 years and never had a problem with anyone. It has become nearly impossible to camp at KTA anyway unless you want to plan your vacation time 2 months in advance.
    Fair point.

    There is nothing wrong with the act itself as long as it is legal. I'm not normally a stickler for the exact letter of the law on things but if the fit is hitting the shan, we all need to respect the community as a whole and that means things like them not waking up to a random Sprinter in their yard or back 40.
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    Apparently NEMBAFEST has been cancelled for 2020

  68. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokee300 View Post
    Apparently NEMBAFEST has been cancelled for 2020
    Good. What crowded mess that event is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    Good. What crowded mess that event is.
    I would have to agree.

  70. #270
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    This is an extreme case, but the lesson here that should be heard nationwide is that people who promote the resource need to be in sync with the people who own or manage the resource. Thatís true regardless of whether itís private or public land.

  71. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokee300 View Post
    Apparently NEMBAFEST has been cancelled for 2020
    It was amazing to me that many people wanted to be sardined together like that and have to get off their bikes every 100 feet because there was traffic coming the other way.
    No thank you

  72. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokee300 View Post
    Apparently NEMBAFEST has been cancelled for 2020
    Did I miss something? Where was this announced?
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  73. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    This is an extreme case, but the lesson here that should be heard nationwide is that people who promote the resource need to be in sync with the people who own or manage the resource. Thatís true regardless of whether itís private or public land.
    100% agreed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    Did I miss something? Where was this announced?
    Check the SE Mass. Nemba page on FB
    .

  75. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    This is an extreme case, but the lesson here that should be heard nationwide is that people who promote the resource need to be in sync with the people who own or manage the resource. Thatís true regardless of whether itís private or public land.
    Yup.

    Add to it that KTA over the past 4-6 weeks has basically provided a very rich amount of information for case studies in what not to do from a community relations, customer relations (thanks for letting the Riders take 100% of the blame KTA) and Marketing standpoint. Fails on each of those fronts.

    From an MTB org standpoint, they went from being anointed the "model" of a trail system association to......well what the heck is opposite of a model.....
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  76. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokee300 View Post
    Check the SE Mass. Nemba page on FB
    .
    Thanks just saw it on southern NH as well
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  77. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    Yup.

    Add to it that KTA over the past 4-6 weeks has basically provided a very rich amount of information for case studies in what not to do from a community relations, customer relations (thanks for letting the Riders take 100% of the blame KTA) and Marketing standpoint. Fails on each of those fronts.

    From an MTB org standpoint, they went from being anointed the "model" of a trail system association to......well what the heck is opposite of a model.....
    Cautionary example.

  78. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I hate to be that guy, but...

    All it takes is one guy who says ďIíve commuted to work on those trails for the last XYZ years...Ē in a courtroom.

    And then, poof, youíve got yourself an easement. Yes, itís a bit more complex than that but also not that complicated. The private landowners wonít win in court if someone sued them.


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    That'd be a great plan if these parcels were the last mountain bikers ever hoped to gain access to in the US.

  79. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    Cautionary example.

    Very. And sad.

    Honestly this is why I have been so vocal on this.....we all have seen this coming. We have mentioned things to KTA over the years or directly to people working for KTA etc. Nothing has been done. I would be kicking myself for years if this things goes to shit and I never at least vocalized my thoughts and sat back and watched it happen. I am calling a spade a spade.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jozz View Post
    So let's say we play armchair quarterback, what concrete solutions would each of you implement to ease the tension in East Burke?

    I'll start. In no specific order of importance.

    - Raise daily and season pass prices for non locals. "locals" would need to be defined, town, county, state?
    - Make it illegal to spend the night in any vehicle outside of campgrounds.
    - Give landowners tax credits or financial kickbacks based on the amount of trails located on their land.
    - Limit the amount of AirBnB rental properties per sector
    - Have trail patrol on ebikes (so they can cover lots of ground) to check on passes and make sure everyone is acting according to the code of conduct. Trail patrol can be reached at all time while on duty by landowners and other users.
    - Limit the size of groups that can travel together in a bunch and enforce it.
    - Limit the amount of demo, events, and marketing by KTA.
    - Have KTA hold public board meetings once in a while and have a town and owner representative on KTA board.
    Good start on the solutions list.

    Since social media and marketing is what got us here in in the first place, I would add an aggressive re-education program (in French and English) about what it means to be a responsible rider at KT. Elephant in the room...KTA really needs to acknowledge and tailor messaging to the riding culture that comes from city neighbors to the north.

    The weekly trail report posts could easily be supplemented with tips on preferred trail direction (or mandated trail direction), proper etiquette for passing/encountering other trail users (uphill/downhill right of way) (equestrian, hiker, biker, right of way). Stress the significance of the private landowners you might meet on your ride. Hell, include some of their history in the area if they're agreeable.

    Include posts on where it's okay to congregate (snack shack) and where's it's not (mid g-out on Sidewinder). "And be sure to stuff a couple bucks into the box for the water you just took from the chapel."
    Stiffly weight SM posts and printed material on rider education than on marketing the next "bro-event".

    Include acknowledgement with signatures of the trail/etiquette code with the sale of every trail pass and season's pass.

    Since there are so many riders with most claiming to be "one of the good guys". Enable some sort of self policing program...but I'm not sure how this is done without coming to blows on the trail. Possibly a carrot and stick approach with reputation merits and demerits like here on MTBR?

  81. #281
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    Not sure the best way to post this, but I came across some information from a reliable source and was able to confirm a portion of it......so I am going with the theory of "where there is smoke there is potentially fire" .

    There is a property tied in with the former developers of "Q Burke" that is for sale on Darling Hill. We have all seen it, we all know it, been for sale for a while. It is actively under contract. It is not cheap. It comes with acreage but it is landlocked by the closed parcels. There is a rumor floating around real estate circles that a certain organization or one may say association is the contracted buyer and that it will nearly empty their coffers.

    That being said, I don't like acting on rumors or spreading them necessarily, which is why I hesitated mentioning it. But if it were true.....and frankly while I don't think KTA is making great decisions these days, I don't see them being this out of touch with reality and the current situation to invest assets deep into the 6 figure range on something like a giant residential property. Granted acreage for more trails is cool.....but that doesn't solve the community issue of traffic, parking, congestion etc. on Darling Hill. They couldn't be that out of touch......right?

    Or maybe I am missing something.....

    I hope my sources were wrong.....
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  82. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by k1creeker View Post
    Good start on the solutions list.

    Since social media and marketing is what got us here in in the first place, I would add an aggressive re-education program (in French and English) about what it means to be a responsible rider at KT. Elephant in the room...KTA really needs to acknowledge and tailor messaging to the riding culture that comes from city neighbors to the north.

    The weekly trail report posts could easily be supplemented with tips on preferred trail direction (or mandated trail direction), proper etiquette for passing/encountering other trail users (uphill/downhill right of way) (equestrian, hiker, biker, right of way). Stress the significance of the private landowners you might meet on your ride. Hell, include some of their history in the area if they're agreeable.

    Include posts on where it's okay to congregate (snack shack) and where's it's not (mid g-out on Sidewinder). "And be sure to stuff a couple bucks into the box for the water you just took from the chapel."
    Stiffly weight SM posts and printed material on rider education than on marketing the next "bro-event".

    Include acknowledgement with signatures of the trail/etiquette code with the sale of every trail pass and season's pass.

    Since there are so many riders with most claiming to be "one of the good guys". Enable some sort of self policing program...but I'm not sure how this is done without coming to blows on the trail. Possibly a carrot and stick approach with reputation merits and demerits like here on MTBR?
    Amen.
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  83. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    Not sure the best way to post this, but I came across some information from a reliable source and was able to confirm a portion of it......so I am going with the theory of "where there is smoke there is potentially fire" .

    There is a property tied in with the former developers of "Q Burke" that is for sale on Darling Hill. We have all seen it, we all know it, been for sale for a while. It is actively under contract. It is not cheap. It comes with acreage but it is landlocked by the closed parcels. There is a rumor floating around real estate circles that a certain organization or one may say association is the contracted buyer and that it will nearly empty their coffers.

    That being said, I don't like acting on rumors or spreading them necessarily, which is why I hesitated mentioning it. But if it were true.....and frankly while I don't think KTA is making great decisions these days, I don't see them being this out of touch with reality and the current situation to invest assets deep into the 6 figure range on something like a giant residential property. Granted acreage for more trails is cool.....but that doesn't solve the community issue of traffic, parking, congestion etc. on Darling Hill. They couldn't be that out of touch......right?

    Or maybe I am missing something.....

    I hope my sources were wrong.....
    link to the listing?

  84. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by jozz View Post
    link to the listing?
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    Wow. Price history shows $699k on Nov 18 2018 and now $1.05 million on Oct 2019. Wish my home value did that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by connolm View Post
    Wow. Price history shows $699k on Nov 18 2018 and now $1.05 million on Oct 2019. Wish my home value did that!

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    But still, only a one car garage. :-)

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    Would seem with a cancellation of major event =1/ of 3 trips possible to Vermont and KTA a year, a far to fragmented trail system that may lose more before it gains, and seemingly a very upset local community both of cyclists and owners. There's better ways to spent a holiday stay and spend tons of cash of the groups I know. Certainly not paying triple to ride because my plate shows Ontario, WE pay club fees here that visitors from the eastern US etc use for free when in the area and break ' All The Same clog the trail, act like arrogant asses , break all etiquette rules, vanpark etc ' here as they do on their own trails & did since Pedro's days . There are As we have learned on this thread so many more places to ride, stay enjoy and welcoming ones! Think we'll practice the French and explore, ride, stay and spend $ there more this year along with PA, NC, Arkansas etc. Thanks for the info. Cheers
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1spd1way View Post
    He said, she said, her fault, his fault. The problem still exists.
    The solutions are complicated.
    The problem is clear.
    Too many riders in too small a place.
    The ratio of douche bags to good riders goes up.
    The question here is how to move forward?
    We said! We are our own worst enemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jozz View Post
    So let's say we play armchair quarterback, what concrete solutions would each of you implement to ease the tension in East Burke?

    I'll start. In no specific order of importance.

    - Raise daily and season pass prices for non locals. "locals" would need to be defined, town, county, state?
    - Make it illegal to spend the night in any vehicle outside of campgrounds.
    - Give landowners tax credits or financial kickbacks based on the amount of trails located on their land.
    - Limit the amount of AirBnB rental properties per sector
    - Have trail patrol on ebikes (so they can cover lots of ground) to check on passes and make sure everyone is acting according to the code of conduct. Trail patrol can be reached at all time while on duty by landowners and other users.
    - Limit the size of groups that can travel together in a bunch and enforce it.
    - Limit the amount of demo, events, and marketing by KTA.
    - Have KTA hold public board meetings once in a while and have a town and owner representative on KTA board.
    Great start! Personally I don't think groups should be bigger than 5 riders. Here around Los Angeles area, the shuttle service price includes a free bell for the bikes and the drivers make sure every rider he/she drops off has one on their bike. I've recently put a bell on my bike and it works surprisingly well.

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    In response to the early post about feeling unwelcome in the state of Vermont:

    There are plenty of people in and from Vermont who are happy to welcome mountain bikers to the state. I understand the anti-tourist argument -- it's one that exists anywhere there's tourism, from ski mountains to beach towns to, yes, Disneyland. Just because some people want to shut the doors does not mean that Vermont is a hostile place to visit. There's a lot on this forum about negative aspects of the growth at KTA, and I agree with some of the points that people have made , but as someone who first rode Kingdom Trails in 1997 and who grew up in the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont, my experience as a regular visitor to KT has been that folks are very friendly and welcoming.

    There's been very little "pro-KTA" feedback on this forum, and maybe that's fine, and maybe that's just the nature of internet forums, but I, for one, am thankful for what they've created. The trails are fun, and there's a nice variety. I can ride with expert bikers, and I can take beginners there. There definitely is still a community, and those of us who are members of KTA are part of that community. Of course there are communities within the larger one, but it's a bit presumptuous to suggest that there's only one opinion coming out of "the community." It's a great place to ride, even if there are clearly some challenges that need addressing.

    It's important, for me anyway, to keep in mind the positive aspects of KTA and try to support the organization through a difficult time. As a point of perspective, there was a financial scandal that went down at my favorite ski mountain, Jay Peak, a few years ago. I chose to support them through their recovery, and I'll support KTA through this one. Do they need to make some changes? Obviously. I like that they've decided to move NEMBAfest, and this could be a good step in the right direction in terms of showing landowners that they are listening to their concerns.

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    At this point I think this case has been tried in the court of public opinion. I think the verdict is in. Ultimately the fate of the trail system lies in the hands of the residents of the effected communities and landowners that are part of the KTA. All involved stakeholders need to come to a consensus on what their vision is for their towns. Is there an acceptable level of tourism that is both an economic benefit yet maintains the quality of life expected. This vision needs to delivered to town officials both elected and appointed as a mandate. This mandate of the community needs to be delivered to KTA. If you want to do business in our towns here are the ground rules. Agh WTF do I know!

  91. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by onzadog View Post
    If there's only two without, they could very well be around the rear of the freehub in the photo you've seen.

    From an engineering point if view, you don't need them all protected to avoid cutting into the Ali.
    They also don't need to be on the leading edges of the splines; it appears that some are. Why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1spd1way View Post
    Good bye E. Burke.
    Now that I know that I am the problem, (my plate is not green), And that charging me more then the "locals" is an idea that will solve everything.
    We will take what little we get as vacation time/money and travel elsewhere.

    We are responsible, respectful riders. We follow the rules of the trail system. We camp at local campgrounds, shop and eat locally. We leave the place better then when we arrived.
    Will you miss us? Doubt it.
    Will we miss the great people that we have met along the way. Yep without a doubt.
    It's a big World out there. Go ride it.
    There certainly have been 2 themes in this discussion that have come through very loudly: 1) KTA f****d up and needs to fix stuff (with which I can at least somewhat agree) and 2) Build a wall around VT. I believe that there are other opinions out there within "the community," and some of the FB threads showed this (where some landowners have spoken out with different perspectives). According to Outsideonline, Kurt Hansbury, who owns the chapel down by Sidewinder, is already planning to cut new trails on his land, even though he shares some of the irritation that his neighbors up the hill felt with some of the riders who just don't get it. I'd really like to hear more directly from people within the KTA organization on this forum. As an Ibis owner, I always find it useful when one of the company's owners offers some insight on their forum. This one could benefit from another side of the discussion. I'm not saying what folks have said here already is wrong (although I disagree with the idea of making everything "locals only"); just that it's really been 2 opinions from two sides of a multi-faceted issue.

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    I'm not getting how people feel un welcome. I live in Mass, and bike/ski at burke maybe 15-20 times a year(skiing at Burke today). Never once have I felt anything less than welcome. I view the KTA issue as a lack of oversight on KTA's part and general disrespect by a likely small amount of riders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokee300 View Post
    ...KTA issue... ...lack of oversight on KTA's part...
    Scruples-be-damned, coupled w/ Darling Hill land 'Q' drove laundered Program Money into is not a lacking oversight though.
    A tall glass of 'fresh-squeezed' after brushing one's Teeth is more like it. Think about that - the closest KTA allegedly can come to have better grounding for the network at large is shoring-up their excess cash for a luxury item.
    Henhouse Horseshit if so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haint View Post
    Scruples-be-damned, coupled w/ Darling Hill land 'Q' drove laundered Program Money into is not a lacking oversight though.
    A tall glass of 'fresh-squeezed' after brushing one's Teeth is more like it. Think about that - the closest KTA allegedly can come to have better grounding for the network at large is shoring-up their excess cash for a luxury item.
    Henhouse Horseshit if so.
    I have a hard time following your cryptic style. I would like for you to write more clearly and transparently. I dont think there is some kind of conspiracy if that is what you are suggesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endosch2 View Post
    I have a hard time following your cryptic style. I would like for you to write more clearly and transparently. I dont think there is some kind of conspiracy if that is what you are suggesting.
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  97. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endosch2 View Post
    I have a hard time following your cryptic style. I would like for you to write more clearly and transparently. I dont think there is some kind of conspiracy if that is what you are suggesting.
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    There was an earlier discussion of solutions, trying to get back on track.


    Mine would be:

    Match trail expansion with rider growth - if you are growing riders at 20% per year, make 20% more trails available. Have planning teams working on each of the next 5 years, don't allow more riders until you have more capacity.

    Pay the land owners generously, establish a legal vehicle to protect them from liability and whatever follow old hippy NIMBY Act 250 regulations. Paying the landowners will create a fair incentive for creating more trails and allow a lot more trails to come on line quickly. Farmers have made a tun of money leasing their land for wind farms, think that way. In upstate NY there are more farmers who want windmill leases than planned generation capacity. A farmer can get $8K a year for a single windmill on their property, think about it.

    Paying the landowners goes hand in hand with riders paying a market price for what they are getting. I am talking a serious increase - like $40 or $50 a day. With more money KT can act like a real organization. They could be a larger employer and create good jobs. Subsidize the self-impoverished Vermonters, you will need to placate them with handouts. KT is a great destination rider experience (at least it was!) for most people and most people would be willing to pay a lot more, especially if the network was larger, less crowded, more "epic".

    Make more of the trails one way and meter traffic more carefully, maybe with directed loops.

    Spread way out - do what MOAB does, create trail heads and parking over a 20-30 mile area. Get rid of the congestion in East Burke and allow other areas to build tiki bars, vanlife campgrounds, bike rental outposts, and dirt jumps to support the local hospitals.

    Make the trails single use for MTB, Fat Biking, EnduroBro, or whatever. Mixed use trails dont work because people dont share each others values in recreation and everyone likes to yuk each others yums. People hate each others choices in recreation and that will never change, so 'just dont fight it and dont do mixed use trails.

  99. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endosch2 View Post
    There was an earlier discussion of solutions, trying to get back on track.


    Mine would be:

    Match trail expansion with rider growth - if you are growing riders at 20% per year, make 20% more trails available. Have planning teams working on each of the next 5 years, don't allow more riders until you have more capacity.

    Pay the land owners generously, establish a legal vehicle to protect them from liability and whatever follow old hippy NIMBY Act 250 regulations. Paying the landowners will create a fair incentive for creating more trails and allow a lot more trails to come on line quickly. Farmers have made a tun of money leasing their land for wind farms, think that way. In upstate NY there are more farmers who want windmill leases than planned generation capacity. A farmer can get $8K a year for a single windmill on their property, think about it.

    Paying the landowners goes hand in hand with riders paying a market price for what they are getting. I am talking a serious increase - like $40 or $50 a day. With more money KT can act like a real organization. They could be a larger employer and create good jobs. Subsidize the self-impoverished Vermonters, you will need to placate them with handouts. KT is a great destination rider experience (at least it was!) for most people and most people would be willing to pay a lot more, especially if the network was larger, less crowded, more "epic".

    Make more of the trails one way and meter traffic more carefully, maybe with directed loops.

    Spread way out - do what MOAB does, create trail heads and parking over a 20-30 mile area. Get rid of the congestion in East Burke and allow other areas to build tiki bars, vanlife campgrounds, bike rental outposts, and dirt jumps to support the local hospitals.

    Make the trails single use for MTB, Fat Biking, EnduroBro, or whatever. Mixed use trails dont work because people dont share each others values in recreation and everyone likes to yuk each others yums. People hate each others choices in recreation and that will never change, so 'just dont fight it and dont do mixed use trails.
    A lot of issue with this plan, how access related to liability in current VT statutes, and what inclusion in the official Vt trails system gives them, and the expectations therein. I completely agree about about leveraging more fiscal resources from visitors, but I suggest getting more familiar with Act 250, and the Landowner Liability Act before drafting any more plans.

  100. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endosch2 View Post
    $40 or $50 a day.


    Pretty much nobody would pay $50 a day to ride KT, given how much awesome riding there is in New England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berkshire_rider View Post


    Pretty much nobody would pay $50 a day to ride KT, given how much awesome riding there is in New England.
    double

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    Looks like there is a new NorthStar article (local VT small paper that is KTA friendly for marketing and messaging) where it appears KTA is regurgitating some of the ideas that have been proposed by others as solutions in the wake of actual leadership or statements from KTA themselves.

    While on one hand I applaud them at least giving lip service to changing direction and focus on relationship and community, it still leaves a large hole in the "why did it take this to happen for you to do what you should have been doing?".

    I would also argue that the same people in charge throughout the organization doesn't give people the warm and fuzzy they will suddenly change their tune not just on the outside publicly but behind closed doors and truly a cultural change in the organization.
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    Quote Originally Posted by berkshire_rider View Post


    Pretty much nobody would pay $50 a day to ride KT, given how much awesome riding there is in New England.
    Not true. I'm only speaking for myself, but if I had a decent amount of confidence that the money was going to an effective place/used thoughtfully. I would pay that. Maybe not every day but I'd certainly do it.

  104. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by berkshire_rider View Post


    Pretty much nobody would pay $50 a day to ride KT, given how much awesome riding there is in New England.
    Indeed. That's lift served pricing.

    I was thinking more in the line of $15 for locals and $20 for visitors, extra $5 going straight to land owners. Apply same ratio to season pass.

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    I imagine I'm a fair bit outside of KT's target audience, but I wouldn't pay just to ride XC trails anywhere. I have no problem earning my keep through some trail work though.
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  106. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Scotty O has the solution. Supply v Demand. We, as residents, need to make it WAY more expensive to visit Vermont.

    10x the cost, 1/10th the visits....win.

    All cars coming into the state pay a once a year auto pass. 50 bucks. All $ devoted to development and support of mass transit that works for all of Vt.

    Recreation pass. Everyone, residents and visitors pay once a year. Just like Hunting and Fishing. Much more expensive for out-of-state players. All $ goes towards access and stewardship, and search and rescue when needed.

    A cap on the number of tourists in any given area or town as decided by the residents.

    Eliminate the State Department of Tourism and Marketing. I think enough people know about Vermont, or let private enterprise pay for their own advertising. To use tax dollars to sell our backyards out to an ever increasing number of tourist lead to where the KTA now finds it's self. Waterbury as well. Other areas hot on their heels.

    Folks thinking the revenue is the most important thing need to read more about the future of services that tourism supports, and unpack where that money really goes. Much of it out of state, or to a small handful of people who are generally well off as compared to the surrounding population. We don't have to guess where an ever-increasing number of tourists lead for any location. This is not my opinion. I've been stating the facts for a while now, but the proponents like to make it about me. It's really about protecting Vt communities from wealth extraction riding on the back of pollution, just like everywhere on the globe that has gone down this path for their quality of life resources and economic future.

    If places like the KT are such an economic BOOM for EBurke and the surrounding area, where's the resources? With enough fore-sight and financial support this could have been averted for sure. Sadly, the economics are bullshit and the KTA's lack of ability to have paid folks working on these issue out in front, instead of some volunteers meeting 6 times a year with purely reactionary actions, or no actions at all belies the truth. Extraction, pollution, destruction of culture.
    Recreation pass makes sense. A tax on every car entering does not, at all. Students, truckers, business trips, those passing through etc. A wall going into every state? Not. I know you have your own issues with the VT way of life and the visitor influx. Cheers.

  107. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokee300 View Post
    double
    Triple.

    Iím an older guy (59) who used to go up with 4 or 5 friends from southern NH for big, enjoyable 4 day weekends about 10 year ago. It was real singletrack, not big wide lanes, and it was incredible!
    In 2018, I did 3 solo mid week day trips that were an absolute shite show. Never went last year. Too many good trails elsewhere. Imo wasting time waiting for 15 person groups to get going at nearly every trail crossing is a buzz kill.
    Thank God for Ascutney in southern Vt, and all of the great trails in NH. KT was great, but not $50.00 great.


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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    Looks like there is a new NorthStar article (local VT small paper that is KTA friendly for marketing and messaging) where it appears KTA is regurgitating some of the ideas that have been proposed by others as solutions in the wake of actual leadership or statements from KTA themselves.

    While on one hand I applaud them at least giving lip service to changing direction and focus on relationship and community, it still leaves a large hole in the "why did it take this to happen for you to do what you should have been doing?".

    I would also argue that the same people in charge throughout the organization doesn't give people the warm and fuzzy they will suddenly change their tune not just on the outside publicly but behind closed doors and truly a cultural change in the organization.
    Once we jump through the looking glass from a community/volunteer based and developed resource, to a commercial endeavor, I doubt if anyone involved is serious about any change in direction. They are just trying to re-brand, message shape, shift perception. There is no way there is a real conversation about the limits an area or community can support is happening. Rest assured, the only direction the KTA as a partner of VT marketing and Tourism, VMBA, VOREC, VT Trail System ect., is moving is towards more people visiting, from a greater distance away and where can we spread our disease.

    Victory Act 250 appeal decision still looms...
    Last edited by DaveVt; 1 Week Ago at 11:19 AM.

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    It is very difficult to tell where people are from when you are being forced off the trail by some rider trying to claim a new strava KOM.
    We have been burned by downhill douche bags in Vt., NH, and Me. So knuckleheads are everywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1spd1way View Post
    We have been burned by downhill douche bags in Vt., NH, and Me.
    Oh really? Have we?

    And please, do tell tell how DHers are the ones that ruined things at KT.

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  111. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1spd1way View Post
    It is very difficult to tell where people are from when you are being forced off the trail by some rider trying to claim a new strava KOM.
    We have been burned by downhill douche bags in Vt., NH, and Me. So knuckleheads are everywhere.
    I think they are all over at Burke Mt. Tats, jugs of water at the bottom, saggy shorts and a " hey bro nice air" in line back up on the lift. They don't climb, they just shred them knarly kickers. ( paraphrase and bias all mine here) If someone has full armor, full face helmet and a long travel squishy bike, chances are they will not be pedaling XC stuff.

  112. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    Looks like there is a new NorthStar article (local VT small paper that is KTA friendly for marketing and messaging) where it appears KTA is regurgitating some of the ideas that have been proposed by others as solutions in the wake of actual leadership or statements from KTA themselves.

    While on one hand I applaud them at least giving lip service to changing direction and focus on relationship and community, it still leaves a large hole in the "why did it take this to happen for you to do what you should have been doing?".

    I would also argue that the same people in charge throughout the organization doesn't give people the warm and fuzzy they will suddenly change their tune not just on the outside publicly but behind closed doors and truly a cultural change in the organization.
    You make some great points, and balanced ones at that. Lets take this one more step. Beside some major KTA changes, meetings with locals, whats the best way for your average joe rider to make a difference? And improve things? I'm a North of Boston rider, visit KTA a few times a year. I get the common sense thing, trail courtesy stuff and be a good land steward thing. NS Nemba guy, done lots of trail work for the last 20 years or so. In my area, KT is very popular, lots of trips from many of my fellow riders. Several have bought properties in the area too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    ( paraphrase and bias all mine here)
    No shit huh? I would've thought you knew better by this point.

    I'd be happy to introduce you to a bunch of "DHers" that'll give you a run for your money on the climbs and XC trails and also make you look like you've never ridden a bike before when it comes to throwing in a little air and style or getting down a mountain. Say when.

    Also pretty sure it wasn't the tiny proportion of DH riders that go to KT that are the cause of the current issues. 100:1 odds it was some pogie-wearing XC dorks on fadbikes out there ignoring the latest trail closures I'd say. And the areas that got closed aren't exactly of huge interest to DH riders; you and the rest of the 'XC is the only way' folks own this one 100%.
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  114. #314
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    I'm an avid hunter and fly fish guy as well as MTB and I cringe when I see fellow hunters fighting among themselves over seemingly small nuanced differences of opinion. In the grand scheme of things the old adage of "together we stand, divided we fall" applies to both outdoor pursuits, including MTB. Whether someone pedals up and cruises down who cares, to a non-rider we are all one in the same. What is good for one group is generally good for the other.

    Would it shock people to know my wife and I throw on the full face helmets and gear and enjoy some lift action in addition to enjoying every XC and technical ride we can....... many of us are just "bikers" or "mountain bikers" in this case with KT......we all get lumped in together for the most part. I would hate to think we can't all at least agree that anything that is good or bad for MTB in general impacts us all as a collective group.

    That being said, some good nature ribbing and shit talking is fair game between weight weenies and lead sled folks......lol
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  115. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    ...whats the best way for your average joe rider to make a difference? And improve things? I'm a North of Boston rider, visit KTA a few times a year. ... In my area, KT is very popular, lots of trips from many of my fellow riders.
    I would say Explore! Soooo many better destination than KTA in the north east!

  116. #316
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    I'm also a Boston North Shore rider who visits KTA 2-3x per year since 2007. Many posters suggest better alternatives. And with the latest NembaFest situation, I'm curious what others are thinking as viable alternatives.

    These alternative destinations may be new model systems for KT. Or target trail systems for when KT is over-flowed. Or even systems with amazing potential to be developed alongside KTA. But the reality is that they will ALL help KTA evolve in the current situation.

    I've created a new sub-forum here to gather thoughts on systems beyond KTA OR systems that would benefit KTA. Link here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    I think they are all over at Burke Mt. Tats, jugs of water at the bottom, saggy shorts and a " hey bro nice air" in line back up on the lift. They don't climb, they just shred them knarly kickers. ( paraphrase and bias all mine here) If someone has full armor, full face helmet and a long travel squishy bike, chances are they will not be pedaling XC stuff.
    Maybe the most ridiculous statement yet on this thread.

    The Burke bike park serves 200 - 300 people MAX on a busy summer weekend. And the people you have slammed above are happily confined to an isolated area far away from Darling Hill, annoying exactly zero land owners.

    130,000 people bought tickets to ride XC at Kingdom Trails last year and flocked to the properties on Darling Hill until it burst at the seams, and the people you described above had nothing to do with it.

    Burke Mtn is not having the issues Kingdom Trails is. They're under popular, not over popular.

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    The shinnanigans happening at or near Stowe Mtn. Resort today are relevant to this conversation.


    Also saw this. https://www.wcax.com/content/news/Ne...567109391.html

    Fish and Wildlife looking for funding source as hunting and fishing declines in Vt. Funnel all trail users through fish and wildlife for an annual Outdoor Rec stamp, which could also act as insurance in case of need of assistance. Just planting seeds here. I'd pay another 20 bucks every year on my license for it. 3 months till fishing!
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  119. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    The shinnanigans happening at or near Stowe Mtn. Resort today are relevant to this conversation.


    Also saw this. https://www.wcax.com/content/news/Ne...567109391.html

    Fish and Wildlife looking for funding source as hunting and fishing declines in Vt. Funnel all trail users through fish and wildlife for an annual Outdoor Rec stamp, which could also act as insurance in case of need of assistance. Just planting seeds here. I'd pay another 20 bucks every year on my license for it.
    Was that the Uberwintiern thing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    Was that the Uberwintiern thing?
    No. I guess the town was basically shut down for a while with traffic. I heard the Stowe PD was turning people away....from the town. I lived on the Mtn rd and rt 100 for 10 years until 2007. When I left I thought it was out of control. This is a whole new level of too many people. It turns into a public safety issue pretty quick.

  121. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    No. I guess the town was basically shut down for a while with traffic. I heard the Stowe PD was turning people away....from the town. I lived on the Mtn rd and rt 100 for 10 years until 2007. When I left I thought it was out of control. This is a whole new level of too many people. It turns into a public safety issue pretty quick.
    Got it.

    I was stuck in Stowe traffic once. Once. Never again. Nice place, but really it just feels to me like Southern NY/NJ north but with snow. MLK weekend and there was actually natural powder......God help the area residents not making money off the hoards.....then again it has been like that for years so if people still are living there by choice it is on them lol
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  122. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    No shit huh? I would've thought you knew better by this point.

    I'd be happy to introduce you to a bunch of "DHers" that'll give you a run for your money on the climbs and XC trails and also make you look like you've never ridden a bike before when it comes to throwing in a little air and style or getting down a mountain. Say when.

    Also pretty sure it wasn't the tiny proportion of DH riders that go to KT that are the cause of the current issues. 100:1 odds it was some pogie-wearing XC dorks on fadbikes out there ignoring the latest trail closures I'd say. And the areas that got closed aren't exactly of huge interest to DH riders; you and the rest of the 'XC is the only way' folks own this one 100%.
    Uggg, crap. Guess my tongue and cheek humor didn't come though here. My point is that someone doing some serious ' downhill stuff" will be over at Burke, not on the xc trails, that's all. Apologies for the derail on an other wise productive thread.

  123. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Uggg, crap. Guess my tongue and cheek humor didn't come though here. My point is that someone doing some serious ' downhill stuff" will be over at Burke, not on the xc trails, that's all. Apologies for the derail on an other wise productive thread.
    I'm a "serious downhill guy" and when I go to NEK I spend one day at Burke on my big bike, and another day at KT on my Scalpel. I wear baggy shorts on both days and am a pretty strong climber. I definitely say "nice air", and despite being in my 40s I still call my friends bro. The majority of us ride a bunch of different styles because they're all a good time.

    Don't be that guy. Save the pointless judgmental crap for the roadies.
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  124. #324
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    Sorry. not implying Dhers are the problem. But I have never been forced off the trail by an "Uphiller".
    Calling out the Dhers is like calling out the out of towners.

  125. #325
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    Again sorry you all missed my point.
    Basic trail rules and common courtesy have been lost in our outdoor spaces.
    This high jack points out the "place the blame" mentality.
    It's not us vs. them. It's not out of towners vs. the locals. It's not DHers vs. XCers.
    It's us vs. us.
    Time to get together as a group.
    It's a big World. Go ride it.

  126. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    Got it.

    I was stuck in Stowe traffic once. Once. Never again. Nice place, but really it just feels to me like Southern NY/NJ north but with snow. MLK weekend and there was actually natural powder......God help the area residents not making money off the hoards.....then again it has been like that for years so if people still are living there by choice it is on them lol
    It really hasn't been like that for very long. Once or twice a year I'll go ski tour on Mansfield. When the base is deep and there fresh snow. Pre-dawn start, I'm usually done by 10. I park at the Notch rd. plow pile. It's only over the last couple or few years that I have seen the traffic jam go 7 miles to the 3 way down town. This is success for the Area association. This is success for the VT dept of Toursim. Their "solution" is to start sending to overflow to *your town*....or the next town...where does that lead? Humans are dumb.

  127. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mdlman View Post
    Maybe the most ridiculous statement yet on this thread.

    The Burke bike park serves 200 - 300 people MAX on a busy summer weekend. And the people you have slammed above are happily confined to an isolated area far away from Darling Hill, annoying exactly zero land owners.

    130,000 people bought tickets to ride XC at Kingdom Trails last year and flocked to the properties on Darling Hill until it burst at the seams, and the people you described above had nothing to do with it.

    Burke Mtn is not having the issues Kingdom Trails is. They're under popular, not over popular.
    Quoted for truth. We already have an image problem, let's not make it worse through division.

  128. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    The shinnanigans happening at or near Stowe Mtn. Resort today are relevant to this conversation.


    Also saw this. https://www.wcax.com/content/news/Ne...567109391.html

    Fish and Wildlife looking for funding source as hunting and fishing declines in Vt. Funnel all trail users through fish and wildlife for an annual Outdoor Rec stamp, which could also act as insurance in case of need of assistance. Just planting seeds here. I'd pay another 20 bucks every year on my license for it. 3 months till fishing!
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    While I'm not opposed to some sort of recreation stamp/card/license as a source of funding for program support, infrastructure maintenance and outdoor education, as a whitewater kayaker, I would be averse to these additional "outdoor" funds being tied Fish and Wildlife segments of recreation. Mostly due to the imbalance of numbers, and a general lack of organization (and collective voice) on the part of cyclists (eat a dick IMBA). I could easily see millions dumped into coffers being spent on things like fish studies in order to have dam release days decreased or cancelled altogether. (Source: Ball Mountain Brook and Green River reservoir studies and re-licensing.)

  129. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by k1creeker View Post
    Quoted for truth. We already have an image problem, let's not make it worse through division.
    No, we don't have an image problem. We have real economic issue looking forward in Vermont, and this is a MODEL problem. This is the cutting edge, a microcosm of "Success" in tourism. Those self-promoters that continue to gain influence and grow this model want the entire State of Vermont to become this. their message is, "OK, now that KTA and Eburke are completely #uckt...let's spread this party out to the surrounding areas. This isn't about the perception of MTBers, this is about the reality of inundating an area with tourists, that out-number the residents 30 times over.

  130. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by k1creeker View Post
    While I'm not opposed to some sort of recreation stamp/card/license as a source of funding for program support, infrastructure maintenance and outdoor education, as a whitewater kayaker, I would be averse to these additional "outdoor" funds being tied Fish and Wildlife segments of recreation. Mostly due to the imbalance of numbers, and a general lack of organization (and collective voice) on the part of cyclists (eat a dick IMBA). I could easily see millions dumped into coffers being spent on things like fish studies in order to have dam release days decreased or cancelled altogether. (Source: Ball Mountain Brook and Green River reservoir studies and re-licensing.)
    Well, as a whitewater kayaker, also the guy that discovered the Green, Cleaned the green, First ran the Green, help organize and particpated in the flow study, and testified in the Federal Appeals court case, I disagree. The green just set a precedent and you will not see things like the West happen again in Vermont. There will be scheduled whitewater releases on the Green, and the right to access and paddle rivers in Vermont is now protected as part of the Clean Water Act, as I understand it. As a fisher, I know that paddlers and anglers all want the same thing. Natural run-of river flows that keep fish and people happy.

    My point is that there is already a system in place, a need for conservation to come forward and balance the exponentially increasing use....even if not for harvest of fish and game, as was once the main draw for tourism in Vermont. That quarry has been replaced with outdoor adventure, but on the very lands that used to support hunting and fishing. Fish and Wildlife would see a massive influx of funding, and could be a counter weight in the conversation between Forests, Parks, and Recreation who basically just markets public resources, with a strong conservation ethic. -313446_2405559215337_995529107_n.jpg

  131. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Uggg, crap. Guess my tongue and cheek humor didn't come though here. My point is that someone doing some serious ' downhill stuff" will be over at Burke, not on the xc trails, that's all. Apologies for the derail on an other wise productive thread.
    Not to worry - just bustin' 'em back.

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  132. #332
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    Hi Dave,

    I know you want to limit tourism and build more sustainable businesses but the Vermont tax system and the NIMBY zoning regulations drive up costs for everyone who lives there. In all of the comparison communities with NH that border the CT river, such as Brattleboro vs Keene, White River vs Hanover/ Lebanon, Bellows Falls vs Claremont, St J vs Littleton, on and on, the Vermont towns are way worse off and less affordable for people, educational outcomes are worse, taxes are higher, housing is more expensive, etc. The state will do nothing significant to spur economic growth, that is done by smart individuals who want to start small businesses. Vermont is repeling these kind of people and until they get rid of the old hippy thinking it wont get better. Tourism can help places like the NEK where there is nothing else remarkable to bring dollars to the place. I have some deep ties to some people in the NEK, and there are a lot of people who were able to gain from KT who otherwise would not have in that area.

  133. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1spd1way View Post
    Calling out the Dhers is like calling out the out of towners.
    Only if there were no out of towners there, like there aren't any DHers there.

    If someone is climbing up lift-served DH trails, they don't get to complain about run-ins with DHers.
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  134. #334
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    We're not in disagreement. My point was not to turn on one another due to the subset of riding we enjoy.

    As mentioned in many posts here and on FB, most recognize there is a ridership population issue and it's magnified due to the relatively small size of the community affected.

  135. #335
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    Thanks for your efforts and advocacy on the Green. I hope to get on it in the future.

    Again, I'm okay with taxation, I simply expect representation in return.
    Cyclists (beyond local grass roots level) are even less organized then the paddling or fishing communities.

  136. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    Sad. But as a property owner very close to the trails, we could see this coming a while ago.

    The regular inundation of users needs more policing on how to be respectful users of the private network. While KTA needs to take the lead on enforcing the rules, a large portion needs to also fall on the shoulders of the users themselves.

    It really isn't that hard to avoid being a douche when visiting a different state or country.....it really isn't.
    Iíve been subjected to user access arrogance. As a family man, tax payer and local professional I could contributed with money and time but I felt like I was dealing with my daughter when she was a teenager. Thoughts of putting my face on a project with land owners, rangers and politicians with people with poor people skills didnít seem to be productive. Once again this group flared up and spun out because of self appointed deacons. Two sides to a back story and I see that the bikers felt they didnít have to accommodate the land owners. Doesnít matter if we liked their rules or not. We need them, they donít need us. So if I make it to Kingdom trails, Iím going to do some serious kiss ass.


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  137. #337
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    If I was a landowner that allowed KTA access to my land I would put restrictions on the number of users per day. I would control that number by organizing the other land owners to impose ticket sale and parking area limitations on KTA. I would also reserve the right to drag any asshat mtb'er off my property by tying him to my horse.

    If KTA can't restrain their greed for growth, I'd do it for them.
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  138. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    mls # 4702181
    The way I see it. Let's say the owner is not interested in subdividing his lot. Maybe KTA would buy the property, subdivide it, and resell the house with say a 10-20 acres of land and keep the remaining 240... Just speculations of course.

  139. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jozz View Post
    The way I see it. Let's say the owner is not interested in subdividing his lot. Maybe KTA would buy the property, subdivide it, and resell the house with say a 10-20 acres of land and keep the remaining 240... Just speculations of course.
    This is a good example of where the real money is made and by whom. The guy is Eburke with a 700K house sees a 40% increase in his home value. Out of State folks who can afford a second home Air B n B it most of the year, avoiding rooms and meals taxes and taking the profits out of state. Artificially high property values without increased wages locally.

  140. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    This is a good example of where the real money is made and by whom. The guy is Eburke with a 700K house sees a 40% increase in his home value. Out of State folks who can afford a second home Air B n B it most of the year, avoiding rooms and meals taxes and taking the profits out of state. Artificially high property values without increased wages locally.
    From the Air B N B website:
    Occupancy tax collection and remittance by Airbnb in Vermont
    State of Vermont

    Guests who book Airbnb listings that are located in the State of Vermont will pay the following taxes as part of their reservation:

    Vermont Meals and Rooms Tax: 9% of the listing price including any cleaning fees and guest fees for reservations 29 nights and shorter. For detailed information, please visit Vermont Department of Taxes website.
    Local Option Meals and Rooms Tax: 1% of the listing price including any cleaning fee and guest fees for reservations 29 nights and shorter in the following municipalities: Brandon, Brattleboro, Colchester, Dover, Killington, Manchester, Middlebury, Montpelier, Rutland Town, St. Albans Town, South Burlington, Stowe, Stratton, Williston, Wilmington, Winhall, and Woodstock. For detailed information, please visit Local Option Tax section of the Vermont Department of Taxes website.

  141. #341
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    E Burke never seemed to really WANT the attention they were getting. The infrastructure of the town was not designed to handle the volume of tourists, and riders that kept coming. Other mountain bike destinations ( Bentonville, Moab etc.) have the parking, restaurants, lodging and miles of trails to keep things running smooth.

  142. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokee300 View Post
    From the Air B N B website:
    Occupancy tax collection and remittance by Airbnb in Vermont
    State of Vermont

    Guests who book Airbnb listings that are located in the State of Vermont will pay the following taxes as part of their reservation:

    Vermont Meals and Rooms Tax: 9% of the listing price including any cleaning fees and guest fees for reservations 29 nights and shorter. For detailed information, please visit Vermont Department of Taxes website.
    Local Option Meals and Rooms Tax: 1% of the listing price including any cleaning fee and guest fees for reservations 29 nights and shorter in the following municipalities: Brandon, Brattleboro, Colchester, Dover, Killington, Manchester, Middlebury, Montpelier, Rutland Town, St. Albans Town, South Burlington, Stowe, Stratton, Williston, Wilmington, Winhall, and Woodstock. For detailed information, please visit Local Option Tax section of the Vermont Department of Taxes website.
    There's the law, then reality. This market is largely unregulated, and unlicensed.



    https://vtdigger.org/2018/11/18/airb...es-since-2016/

  143. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    There's the law, then reality. This market is largely unregulated, and unlicensed. An estimated loss of 8 million from 2016- 2018.



    https://vtdigger.org/2018/11/18/airb...es-since-2016/
    Getting way off topic but I couldn't find mention in that two year old article of Air BnB not collecting taxes as you stated earlier. I have paid that tax in VT many times through VRBO and AirBnB. If you're talking about people renting out rooms on their own(which you weren't earlier) That is another matter.

  144. #344
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    It's a year old.
    ďThere are lots of others out in the marketplace that arenít paying taxes, and not only is that not fair to people in the lodging industry in Vermont, but also there is an argument to be made that the state of Vermont is missing out on serious tax income,Ē Beach said.

  145. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokee300 View Post
    Getting way off topic but I couldn't find mention in that two year old article of Air BnB not collecting taxes as you stated earlier. I have paid that tax in VT many times through VRBO and AirBnB. If you're talking about people renting out rooms on their own(which you weren't earlier) That is another matter.
    ďThere are lots of others out in the marketplace that arenít paying taxes, and not only is that not fair to people in the lodging industry in Vermont, but also there is an argument to be made that the state of Vermont is missing out on serious tax income,Ē Beach said.

    Other feedback loops extracting wealth out of state...
    https://www.manchesterjournal.com/st...e-rules,564195

  146. #346
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    Open Letter from KTA
    https://www.kingdomtrails.org/open-letter-to-community

    Kingdom Trails is much more than a network of epic trails: it is the very embodiment of community. The trails exist because of this communityís vision, will, heart, resilience and generosity. Thereís an incredible culture of sharing and giving that underlies these trails. Itís the founders of KTA; the private landowners and volunteers; the outdoor enthusiasts and members; the local business owners and town boards; school groups and visitors alike that complete and make special the landscape and experience of Kingdom Trails. These tangible and intangible qualities are what make these trails so special, visiting our area so memorable and why we must work hard to preserve this remarkable community legacy.

    Community is about common ownership. Unfortunately, as stewards of the trails and KTA, we have been slow to respond to issues and concerns and we acknowledge our lack of voice and leadership. We sincerely apologize and we take full responsibility. We will not look for excuses, rather we will listen, and we will act. It is clear that we have insufficiently managed the exceptional growth of Kingdom Trails, which has placed undue stress and impacts on our community. We, like many others, have been caught up in the trail networkís economic successes but have missed the unintended consequences and negative outcomes that growth brings. We wholeheartedly commit to a change in focus.

    Community is about public spirit. The very good news is that there is plenty of spirit and passion for Kingdom Trails, enough to circumnavigate the earth by bike many times over. Thank you, truly, for all of your emails, letters, social media posts and phone calls. We hope, through better and more productive engagement, to positively channel that spirit and passion as we tackle the issues before us.

    There are two immediate ways that we are addressing community engagement. First is through the creation of a Landowner Committee, advising the Board of Directors, and hosting regular landowner forums. Yes, we thank them publicly every day and honor them with a celebration annually, yet it is just that, a party. It is not a conversation nor platform to share feedback and concerns.

    Second, please bring all of that public spirit to bear on the Community Forum Open House we are hosting on February 11 th at the Burke Town School from 5:00-7:30PM. This is a community project, in partnership with the Burke Chamber, to solicit ideas, feedback and input on addressing the growth, infrastructure and capacity issues associated with the trail network.

    Community is shared by many or all. A lot of the dialogue on social media centered around respecting the trails and trail etiquette. There is only one group to call out on this subject and that is us. We have not done enough to educate trail users. Itís KTAís responsibility to inform
    trail users about proper etiquette while on our trails and when visiting our community. Nothing undermines goodwill and a culture of sharing more quickly and effectively than a dishonoring of common values in how we treat one another. In response, we are broadening our current trail use policy and developing a robust code of conduct. We are exploring ways through the membership and waiver system to ensure that every user must read, watch and agree to the code of conduct. We will also be redirecting a substantial portion of our marketing budget to user education and promoting KTAís new code of conduct. Additionally, to better enforce trail rules we will be deploying more trail ambassadors and increasing their presence on the network.

    Community is about common enjoyment. We recognize that congestion, particularly on Darling Hill and other network hot spots, has adversely affected quality of life and enjoyment. To address this, we have taken action to relocate events such as Winterbike to East Burke Town
    Center. We recently announced that NEMBAfest will not be held on Kingdom Trails. Further, we plan to expand shuttle service around the trail network to help minimize traffic and parking issues and build new trails to help disperse trail traffic to other areas in Lyndon, Burke and East Haven, as well as join community-action efforts to reduce the speed limit on Darling Hill to 25 mph. And, certainly, the results of our network capacity and feasibility study will help outline long term and sustainable solutions to better balance and manage trail use and quality of life for years to come.

    This is not a complete list of action steps or remedies but a start of more to come as there is much work to do. As Kingdom Trails is a community endeavor, we ask you to continue to share with us and to be engaged. We canít bring about another 25 years of success without the investment of our community. In turn, we promise to be more responsive and transparent as we roll out plans and address challenges. We intend to do everything we can to regain your full trust and support.

  147. #347
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    This letter from KTA to the community is a good step. Thanks for sharing. https://www.kingdomtrails.org/open-letter-to-community

  148. #348
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    No where does it say less people....their solution....start spreading the cancer around.
    "We have a Party...."
    They have willfully ignored the reality they were creating. This makes it sound like an accident. More spin. Damage control. Message shaping. Rebranding.
    All involved lands need an act 250 permit. The criteria are clearly applicable.

  149. #349
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    A few thoughts on the KTA letter.

    Yes it is a good step, 4-6 weeks late, but a good step.

    There is no mentioning of restructuring their personnel or board. While there is a reallocation of their marketing efforts towards community relations (finally) if the same person(s) that were inthose "slots" are the ones to lead that effort there is still an epic fail. The people that lead them to this point, lost the heart of the trail system etc. cannot be the ones to lead them out of it like nothing ever happened. Their actions lead us to this point.

    I strongly suspect there are more challenges on the horizon for KTA.
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  150. #350
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    Are any of the board members landowners with KTA trails on their land?

  151. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    No where does it say less people....their solution....start spreading the cancer around.
    "We have a Party...."
    They have willfully ignored the reality they were creating. This makes it sound like an accident. More spin. Damage control. Message shaping. Rebranding.
    All involved lands need an act 250 permit. The criteria are clearly applicable.
    They need to limit ticket sales. They can form all the committees and lists of rule they want but it won't stop hordes of people coming there and pissing off more landowners. Damage control is all that letter is.

    I don't predict any KTA is going to enact the major changes to solve the problem they've created.
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  152. #352
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    I believe this is a general letter with information as to broad goals. Specifics will likely come later which may include those things that will help the overall community. So many here are so quick to judge. They made some mistakes. It is in their best interest to learn from these mistakes and resolve the issues. I have no problem with the current leadership as long as they understand where mistakes were made and how to correct them. No need for torches and pitchforks yet folks.

    I am cautiously optimistic that KT is not doomed.

  153. #353
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    If an act 250 review of the KTA were triggered, would the state just gut or eliminate the program? If KTA land owners were required to permit, what would happen? I imagine the state will exempt recreational tourism at a minimum.

  154. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1spd1way View Post
    Good bye E. Burke.
    Now that I know that I am the problem, (my plate is not green), And that charging me more then the "locals" is an idea that will solve everything.
    We will take what little we get as vacation time/money and travel elsewhere.

    We are responsible, respectful riders. We follow the rules of the trail system. We camp at local campgrounds, shop and eat locally. We leave the place better then when we arrived.
    Will you miss us? Doubt it.
    Will we miss the great people that we have met along the way. Yep without a doubt.
    It's a big World out there. Go ride it.
    Or you could move here.

  155. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    If an act 250 review of the KTA were triggered, would the state just gut or eliminate the program? If KTA land owners were required to permit, what would happen? I imagine the state will exempt recreational tourism at a minimum.
    I've been told by a reasonably reliable source Act 250 wouldn't necessarily be the end of KTA. That being said I wouldn't bet much of my own money either way knowing how VT and governments within VT work.

    I think a lot of us are cautiousy optimistic but when you are close to the mess, and have seen the years of poor decision making by largely the same people, I think there are enough within the community that want some changes.

    Add to that there is smoke coming from several places and now that folks within the community as well as the MTB community are looking at things a little closer, there may be some additional challenges ahead for KTA.

    Survival of KT in some shape or form is relatively vital to the local economy. While many wish they weren't dependent on the eggs in a single basket, the area just is. Adding additional intrigue to future plans and planning is the fact that significant chunks of that economy and community are for sale, a number of the Inns for sale, another new inn is opening at the Mansion and the hotel is undercutting everyone with cheap room rates and mountain passes. Add in the NEK Store (Bailey and Burke) being for sale again as well. It is high drama by NEK standards.
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  156. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    I've been told by a reasonably reliable source Act 250 wouldn't necessarily be the end of KTA.
    A friend who works for the state thinks there's a chance an Act 250 JO could cause the state to gut or completely eliminate the program. He says as far as the State of Vermont is concerned the KTA is the Shining Star of success for a recreational tourism economy that they see as the future of the state. We'll see.

  157. #357
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    222
    Endless hype for mediocre trails, bitter locals, obnoxious tourists and a corrupt organization who refused to address the shit show that got worse year after year. I cant imagine why things went south.... its a damn shame.

  158. #358
    Downcountry
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Posts
    10
    I think Act 250 is essentially a old hippy now "ok boomer" piece of NIMBY legislation that is typical of Vermont and Berniedom. When you listen to the legislature in Vermont talk its like hearing rewinds from Woodstock. The fact that some are even saying it applies to this development model suggests the intent of the act - close the door behind you, keep your costs high, reduce opportunity for Vermont residents, keep them highly taxed and impoverished, poor schools, etc.

    This is the kind of legislation that is being unwound elsewhere as people have now realized its at fault for high housing prices, people who cant afford or mortgages rent on a middle class salary, and driving up homelessness.

    KT needs to figure out a legal and liability protected way to reimburse land owners like windmill farms, and also charge a market price to users for what they are getting. That is the core problem here is that the landowners are giving up something and not necessarily getting anything in return.

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