rut roh raggy, new perspective or same old trail marketing under a different name?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    rut roh raggy, new perspective or same old trail marketing under a different name?

    White Mountains MTB community and WM NEMBA members, the below was just sent to the current membership of the WM NEMBA chapter:

    Dear White Mountains NEMBA Members,

    We are writing to bring our local membership up to speed on some developments in the White Mountains concerning mountain bike advocacy. On Monday, July 20th, NEMBAís leadership received the attached letter from Chris McKay, the current chapter president of WM NEMBA, stating his intention to dissolve the chapter and transfer all assets and membership to another organization: Ride NOCO/White Mountain Bike Coalition. We want the chapter membership to know that we disagree with his authority to take this action, and were entirely surprised by the letter.

    NEMBAís position is simple. First, chapter membership must have a say in decisions like the dissolution of the chapter. Secondly, the chapter president does not have the authority to transfer assets to another organization without approval of the NEMBA Board of Directors. NEMBA feels strongly that the assets of the chapter must stay within the White Mountains region. NEMBA has no intention of moving money or tools out of the state or the region. We are also excited to work with local partners like Ride NOCO.

    We make no judgement about the intentions of Ride NOCOís board members. At the time of their actions they were not NEMBA members yet we know they are dedicated people doing good work in the region. We do, however, feel that they are conflicted in their ability to decide what is best for WM NEMBA because of their entanglement with another organization. While unprecedented, we feel it is best to reach out to the membership directly to seek your collective guidance on the future of the chapter. We believe there is a place for NEMBA in the ecosystem of mountain bike advocacy in the White Mountains and would like to find a new leadership team to chart a path forward. We will be hosting a virtual White Mountains NEMBA chapter meeting on Tuesday, August 11th at 7:00pm and we encourage you to attend - as current members of the chapter, each of you will receive an email from Zoom for the webinar as Participants. The goal for this meeting is to answer any questions you may have and then follow up by taking a poll of WM NEMBA members to decide a path forward.

    We do not intend for this process to become divisive or contentious but we feel that you, the membership of the White Mountains chapter, may not have been provided all information regarding your chapter nor opportunities to have your voices heard regarding its future. Our ideal outcome is a revitalized chapter with new leadership and a close working relationship with the team at Ride NOCO. We look forward to bringing this to a resolution soon.

    Respectfully,

    NEMBA Executive Committee

    Adam Glick, NEMBA President

    Matt Schulde, NEMBA Vice President

    Anne Shepard, NEMBA Treasurer

    Tom Grimble, NEMBA Secretary

    Matt Caron, Southern NH NEMBA

    David Hughes, Carrabassett Region NEMBA

    Paula Burton, Housatonic Valley NEMBA

  2. #2
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    So much drama with NH mountain biking lately.


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    And no reactions from our usual crew either. Were there some bans brought down?

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    I've been getting the popcorn ready.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraniteRash View Post
    And no reactions from our usual crew either. Were there some bans brought down?
    Iím here for the drama!

    I hear all the tourists are trashing N. Conway.

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    "Transfer all assets"?
    Pretty sure that just because you decide to leave an organization, you don't automatically get to steal a bunch of their shit.
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    yup, I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop with the white mountain bike scene. Locals here questioned sending money out of state, recognizing didn't make sense, and it appears other communities are starting to agree. Thats great.
    What isn't great is the push in my area by people aligned with marketing groups advocating for unwanted changes to the local trails. (dirt sidewalks) And that is exactly what Pemi NEMBA members didn't want, although the former club president apparently did, agreeing w the USFS to the IMBA plans for dirt sidewalks, but why the club members voted down the proposal. Surprisingly the USFS approved the rejected proposal despite one of the largest criteria for acceptance being there be a large, widespread local support for the proposed project. So the skinny is that we have the current president of the NEMBA group, the former president of Pemi NEMBA and former executive director of the White Mt Trail Collective, and the current ex director of WMTC, a couple Granite state back country folks, and a few locals looking to cover their asses for unapproved trail work/construction, all trying to keep the flame alive. My point being that here its the same folks pushing the marketing, just hiding their groups agenda behind a false store front of personal representation. Its a mess and change is needed as shown in N Conway, I'm not sure its actual change or just swapping figureheads. This is from an article about these groups and some of their plans for the forest...this message seems at odds with its self and I would pose that is a big obstacle for these marketing groups to over come, how to sell the natural resource while hiding the fact you are the source of the problems of overuse and degradation.
    "Sustaining natural resources and maintaining trails are a key part of MountainFestís message, Crawford said, noting that the chamber has taken a lesson from the ďover-loveĒ of the Dianaís Baths recreation area and learned how to spread the word about enjoying less-congested amenities".
    https://www.conwaydailysun.com/news/...913d9b0b0.html
    As one NEMBA member put it to me, "Once the machines come in, thats when I draw the line...I mean, I just want to come here and ride to relax after a long day...How did we get here?" I wonder if he knows there is this invention called a mirror...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    "Transfer all assets"?
    Pretty sure that just because you decide to leave an organization, you don't automatically get to steal a bunch of their shit.

    This is about NH locals keeping their assets in NH. Not sending funds they raised on their own to Boston for administration fees.


    NEMBA put quite the spin on that one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elsinore View Post
    This is about NH locals keeping their assets in NH. Not sending funds they raised on their own to Boston for administration fees.


    NEMBA put quite the spin on that one.

    Right. So you stop sending your money and move forward. You don't get to retroactively 'transfer assets'.
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    Seems like there can be room for both groups? Will be listening from the sidelines on tuesday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Right. So you stop sending your money and move forward. You don't get to retroactively 'transfer assets'.
    Slappy

    That is precisely what is happening.
    NEMBA will receive what itís owed here, which hardly amounts to anything. 2/3 of membership dues $ go to admin, and not the local chapter which is what I speak of.

    WMBC were not the ones who started a pissing contest here. Read the statement.


    https://ridenoco.org/news

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    Quote Originally Posted by justrideyourbike View Post
    yup, I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop with the white mountain bike scene. Locals here questioned sending money out of state, recognizing didn't make sense, and it appears other communities are starting to agree. Thats great.
    What isn't great is the push in my area by people aligned with marketing groups advocating for unwanted changes to the local trails. (dirt sidewalks) And that is exactly what Pemi NEMBA members didn't want, although the former club president apparently did, agreeing w the USFS to the IMBA plans for dirt sidewalks, but why the club members voted down the proposal. Surprisingly the USFS approved the rejected proposal despite one of the largest criteria for acceptance being there be a large, widespread local support for the proposed project. So the skinny is that we have the current president of the NEMBA group, the former president of Pemi NEMBA and former executive director of the White Mt Trail Collective, and the current ex director of WMTC, a couple Granite state back country folks, and a few locals looking to cover their asses for unapproved trail work/construction, all trying to keep the flame alive. My point being that here its the same folks pushing the marketing, just hiding their groups agenda behind a false store front of personal representation. Its a mess and change is needed as shown in N Conway, I'm not sure its actual change or just swapping figureheads. This is from an article about these groups and some of their plans for the forest...this message seems at odds with its self and I would pose that is a big obstacle for these marketing groups to over come, how to sell the natural resource while hiding the fact you are the source of the problems of overuse and degradation.
    "Sustaining natural resources and maintaining trails are a key part of MountainFestís message, Crawford said, noting that the chamber has taken a lesson from the ďover-loveĒ of the Dianaís Baths recreation area and learned how to spread the word about enjoying less-congested amenities".
    https://www.conwaydailysun.com/news/...913d9b0b0.html
    As one NEMBA member put it to me, "Once the machines come in, thats when I draw the line...I mean, I just want to come here and ride to relax after a long day...How did we get here?" I wonder if he knows there is this invention called a mirror...
    Hey Jim,
    Last I checked the riding hasn't changed one bit. I think you need to stop beating the same drum you have been for years. I am so sick of hearing the negativity regarding our trails being destroyed and overcrowded. I never see another person when I ride there.
    The eco terrorism of destroying the trails was probably the most ridiculous action of any local I have ever seen. Who gives them the right to go out and destroy berms and jumps. I guess the same right of someone that goes out and builds said berms and jumps.
    Just do what your profile says and go ride your bike and stop living like its groundhogs day.
    By the way Jim, have you ridden North Conway lately? The trails just keep getting better.
    Take care,
    Todd
    Last edited by ToddSH; 08-11-2020 at 05:06 AM.

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    Yup, pretty much 100% garbage. This is a great move to create independence and go their own way as a community. Weíre talking about a town that built a tourist train in 1872, and has been a marketing driven outdoor rec tourist destination for 150 years. You canít ruin North Conway with marketing!

    Cranky old men who donít like seeing other people in the woods will still have endless trail to ride in the valley even with this new push. And claiming ďdirt sidewalksĒ is what going on there right now shows how clueless they are. Conway has the scariest new trails of anywhere Iíve been on the east coast...

    Youíve got a town without a reason for young sporty people to stay since the rock climbing boom faded finding an amazing new possibility with bike trails. 20+ people are showing up on a weekly basis on Wednesday nights to build new trail because of Ride NoCo. There is tons of potent grassroots energy with a full on ski area actively helping bike trail planning.

    And that ski area has huge amounts of un-used parking and facilities all summer, with a town and community behind them to take it to a new place. Combine that with non-fragile soils that drain well after rain, a ďlive free and dieĒ attitude that lets people built scary new trails that East coasters think only exists in magazine or on the west coast and youíve got something really special going on.

    This ainít about a precious untouched gem for locals getting blown up and over-run by the modern world...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddSH View Post
    Hey Jim,
    Last I checked the riding hasn't changed one bit. I think you need to stop beating the same drum you have been for years. I am so sick of hearing the negativity regarding our trails being destroyed and overcrowded. I never see another person when I ride there.
    Your eco terrorism of destroying the same trails you enjoy riding was probably the most ridiculous action of any local I have ever seen. Who gives you the right to go out and destroy berms and jumps. I guess the same right of someone that goes out and builds said berms and jumps.
    Just do what your profile says and go ride your bike and stop living like its groundhogs day.
    By the way Jim, have you ridden North Conway lately? The trails just keep getting better.
    Take care,
    Todd
    I ride up there fairly regularly and rarely see another rider. Apparently this nefarious area marketing cabal made up of area businesses, local ski resort, realtors and chamber of commerce that is hell bent on exploiting and monetizing the local trails, using mountain bike organizations as a front, has failed miserably!

    Calling out individuals and questioning the character, actions and motivations is a deplorable cheap shot. Back room deals between individuals and the USFS, give me a break. Pure delusional fabrication.

    Hopefully all of this unproductive local bickering will subside with the inclusion of these trails into the forest service plan. Itís a done deal. How the local mountain biking community responds will dictate how much the USFS listens. They do seem open to constructive input but certainly not a continuation of the current local infighting.

    While the new developments locally are not comparable to what is happening in North Conway the apparent new trend away from a regional organizational model to a more local one is worth the discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddSH View Post
    Hey Jim,
    Last I checked the riding hasn't changed one bit. I think you need to stop beating the same drum you have been for years. I am so sick of hearing the negativity regarding our trails being destroyed and overcrowded. I never see another person when I ride there.
    Your eco terrorism of destroying the same trails you enjoy riding was probably the most ridiculous action of any local I have ever seen. Who gives you the right to go out and destroy berms and jumps. I guess the same right of someone that goes out and builds said berms and jumps.
    Just do what your profile says and go ride your bike and stop living like its groundhogs day.
    By the way Jim, have you ridden North Conway lately? The trails just keep getting better.
    Take care,
    Todd
    Toddsh, hows things? Yeah the guy who was doing that I spoke to after he wrecked Pinto, telling me he was "stirring the pot" What he did after that I have no idea, except stop talking to me...haha. I realize I am an easy target for that smear by calling out the clubs destructive mentality over the years and most recently on here, but its just not true. So stick to the facts please.
    I thought this club crap was finally done and suddenly its all new all over again this summer. I suggest you take your own advice, as was I, just enjoying the trails as things were settling down nicely....until the leaf blowing and "New" club shit started up again this Spring. If folks would just ride their bikes and stop with the club push on non machine built local trails that can not sustain said abuse, it would be a great thing dontcha think? The truly best solution is to do nothing...weird I know. Eventually the USFS is going to bring the hammer down, they will have to, just a question of when. That means closures and dirt sidewalks, what Pemi membership was trying to avoid by their vote against the club leadership..oops. As for your club, new or old, what a fine group of honest folks, your trail wrecker and new trail cutter(s) are members of some standing I'm told.... So ok, Ill move on from Smarts, lets talk about the other trail efforts announced by Pemi in 2012. How are Bebee river grade trails and the 250 acres on the bottom of Ellsworth hill coming along? They must be opening any day now....unless that was all BS as well. Take care Todd, maybe we can ride sometime and I'll set you straight on some things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike93 View Post
    I ride up there fairly regularly and rarely see another rider. Apparently this nefarious area marketing cabal made up of area businesses, local ski resort, realtors and chamber of commerce that is hell bent on exploiting and monetizing the local trails, using mountain bike organizations as a front, has failed miserably!

    Calling out individuals and questioning the character, actions and motivations is a deplorable cheap shot. Back room deals between individuals and the USFS, give me a break. Pure delusional fabrication.

    Hopefully all of this unproductive local bickering will subside with the inclusion of these trails into the forest service plan. Itís a done deal. How the local mountain biking community responds will dictate how much the USFS listens. They do seem open to constructive input but certainly not a continuation of the current local infighting.

    While the new developments locally are not comparable to what is happening in North Conway the apparent new trend away from a regional organizational model to a more local one is worth the discussion.
    Thanks, Public shaming doesn't work so well if you are correct and presenting an honest assessment backed by results of said bad behavior. Local control is key to a successful community effort. Hiding behind Club national bylaws to stifle respectful dissenting views when discussing local issues isn't helpful. I hope N Conway becomes the next Burke miracle, they want it and built it, forcing that model on smaller areas not so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GraniteRash View Post
    And no reactions from our usual crew either. Were there some bans brought down?
    Not banned, I don't think; occasionally deleted. Sad to see the antagonism in NH. Don't know much about NEMBA except they always held their fest in the one New England state that didn't have any NEMBA chapters. Don't know much about NH trails except they seem pretty old-school and gnarly and I wish I were good enough to ride more of them. The Whites are pretty big; I bet there's room for all kinds of trails and the different people who want to ride them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elsinore View Post
    This is about NH locals keeping their assets in NH. Not sending funds they raised on their own to Boston for administration fees.


    NEMBA put quite the spin on that one.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only legal entity here is NEMBA, isn't it? I mean there wasn't a separate legal entity for the individual chapter, right? When you sign up for NEMBA, you write a check to NEMBA, not your local chapter, yes? If all that is true, then all of the assets donated to NEMBA are the property of the NEMBA organization, not the NH locals. The fact that NEMBA organizes itself into chapters and gives chapters discretion to spend some of the money doesn't change the fact that it's still NEMBA's money.

    You may or may not like that arrangement, and you certainly have the right to form your own organization, but unless I misunderstand something there is no legal basis for transferring NEMBA's money to a different organization.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only legal entity here is NEMBA, isn't it? I mean there wasn't a separate legal entity for the individual chapter, right? When you sign up for NEMBA, you write a check to NEMBA, not your local chapter, yes? If all that is true, then all of the assets donated to NEMBA are the property of the NEMBA organization, not the NH locals. The fact that NEMBA organizes itself into chapters and gives chapters discretion to spend some of the money doesn't change the fact that it's still NEMBA's money.

    You may or may not like that arrangement, and you certainly have the right to form your own organization, but unless I misunderstand something there is no legal basis for transferring NEMBA's money to a different organization.
    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only legal entity here is NEMBA, isn't it? I mean there wasn't a separate legal entity for the individual chapter, right? When you sign up for NEMBA, you write a check to NEMBA, not your local chapter, yes? If all that is true, then all of the assets donated to NEMBA are the property of the NEMBA organization, not the NH locals. The fact that NEMBA organizes itself into chapters and gives chapters discretion to spend some of the money doesn't change the fact that it's still NEMBA's money.

    You may or may not like that arrangement, and you certainly have the right to form your own organization, but unless I misunderstand something there is no legal basis for transferring NEMBA's money to a different organization.
    As far as the membership dues funding goes you are correct, which is why those assets are headed back to NEMBA along with anything else they contributed to the chapter.

    Also why a separate local based not for profit was created. Again, read the statement linked above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elsinore View Post
    As far as the membership dues funding goes you are correct, which is why those assets are headed back to NEMBA along with anything else they contributed to the chapter.

    Also why a separate local based not for profit was created. Again, read the statement linked above.
    Not to be difficult, but the statement does not address what happens to the assets. It says this:

    Members of our biking community have asked what will happen to the remaining WM NEMBA funds. NEMBA will be issuing a letter to all WM NEMBA chapter members to vote on what should happen to the chapter. The WM NEMBA members will also get to vote on the final dissolution of the Chapter or continuing the chapter under new leadership at the time as well. Regardless of the final vote the leadership team will be moving forward with WMBC.
    That doesn't sound the same to me as your reply. Did the original letter from the chapter president to NEMBA really say they intended to "transfer all assets and membership to another organization" ? Because if so, NEMBA's response seems quite appropriate.

    In general, however, the WMBC statement sounds very reasonable. It's unfortunate that this kind of public conflict is occurring in the mountain bike community. It does sound like WMBC has a very solid case for having their own separate club apart from NEMBA and it sounds like they are trying to do it the right way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Not to be difficult, but the statement does not address what happens to the assets. It says this:



    That doesn't sound the same to me as your reply. Did the original letter from the chapter president to NEMBA really say they intended to "transfer all assets and membership to another organization" ? Because if so, NEMBA's response seems quite appropriate.

    In general, however, the WMBC statement sounds very reasonable. It's unfortunate that this kind of public conflict is occurring in the mountain bike community. It does sound like WMBC has a very solid case for having their own separate club apart from NEMBA and it sounds like they are trying to do it the right way.
    You are correct, itís not the same as my reply. There is some drama that has yet to be played out here unfortunately.

    The issue is what is refereed to as ĎNEMBA assetsí. It depends on if NEMBA feels entitled to reallocate the funds raised in good faith by folks in the MWV community for projects that the current WMBC board was pursuing at the time of their withdrawal from NEMBA.

    These funds were not contributed by NEMBA in any way, and were generated by the local community to be directed at the discretion of their board toward local trail projects how they see fit.

    Is nemba entitled to those funds legally? Iím sure they are.

    Would that be the right thing to do?

    Now thatís another question.

    Nemba has said that they donít want take resources away from the community.

    We will see what they decide to do. So far, their actions have been pretty clear that they intend to divide the community and keep a nemba chapter alive that is at odds with the WMBC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elsinore View Post
    We will see what they decide to do. So far, their actions have been pretty clear that they intend to divide the community and keep a nemba chapter alive that is at odds with the WMBC.
    Bingo!

    Just read the releases. One is very professional and friendly, on a professional looking website. One is a rant on Facebook.

    I for one am stoked to see WMBC step away from NEMBA. The poor org has lost relevancy with many and the old guard is struggling to keep up. They have a ton of cash sitting around to pay the next ED when they finally hire them (my money is on one of the said old guard).

    It's a shame. I personally would love to support NEMBA but they are an aging, divisive, and poor advocacy org. They are really good at buying pizza and teaching members the art of backdoor handshakes to develop trails.

    Every. Single. Interaction I've had with them has been negative, the club leadership I've dealt with is clueless both in trail design and construction and advocacy and nonprofit management.

    New England needs more than VMBA showing folks how a modern, professional, org can help communities through trails.

    EDIT: I should add, if in deed there was a misunderstanding and some sort of legal issue with funds is real, I don't support that. But to be fair, I don't think WMBC intended any harm, if anything possible ignorance. NEMBA's response on the other hand...
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    No-one is currently banned but the personal mud-slinging that was going on in this sub-forum was completely unacceptable.

    NOTE: I've edited a post further up here to remove a personal attack/insult... If you mess around with explosives then it just blows up the thread.

    I (We) do our best to try and let conversations happen without interference. It's pretty obvious there is some conflict / polarizing opinion in NH/VT and that it's been going on for quite a while. It's fine to respectfully disagree here but when it gets personal to the point that the thread is completely derailed then I'm going to get shut down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike93 View Post
    I ride up there fairly regularly and rarely see another rider. Apparently this nefarious area marketing cabal made up of area businesses, local ski resort, realtors and chamber of commerce that is hell bent on exploiting and monetizing the local trails, using mountain bike organizations as a front, has failed miserably!

    Calling out individuals and questioning the character, actions and motivations is a deplorable cheap shot. Back room deals between individuals and the USFS, give me a break. Pure delusional fabrication.

    Hopefully all of this unproductive local bickering will subside with the inclusion of these trails into the forest service plan. Itís a done deal. How the local mountain biking community responds will dictate how much the USFS listens. They do seem open to constructive input but certainly not a continuation of the current local infighting.

    While the new developments locally are not comparable to what is happening in North Conway the apparent new trend away from a regional organizational model to a more local one is worth the discussion.
    So back no room deals, no resort push? The only new trail proposed by the pemi holes was to link Waterville w the network. The first supporter of pemi was waterville valley reality, publishing notices about the new club and their plans for the trails. One of the past presidents of pemi told me of his desire to build a trail from where he lives to a local pond. Interestingly at the next USFS meeting there is "phase two" suddenly added to the wanosha project to include that area. At that time I wrote to the USFS how this was a great example of one person making decisions for everyone, and they dropped phase two....hmmmm. Recently some friends bushwhacking in the same area last month came across a trail being built there. Wonder who that is? 2017 ish saw the creation of new trail(s), during the middle of the USFS study period, by these guys with Zero reaction from the USFS, and that made an outside magazine article! In my opinion, this non response encouraged other actions. Fortunately pemi vetos their own project and things settle down, until this Spring. In response the USFS has granted the new club, the same folks out thrashing the past 3 years, "level one" trail permission, all within a month of inception.
    Do you know if the trails are even recognized as official yet? Nobody seems to know and a varying response from individual USFS personnel doesn't help anyone. Heres a good example: Pemi nemba member told me in response to the Spring leaf blowing, that they were told they have permission to work on trails, an email from the head ranger says they did in the past, but the permission letter was not renewed...wtf. A couple days later the same pemi person mailed me to say the kid was not a nemba member and take his name to the usfs, what nice folks.
    Again, unfortunately, the USFS seems to be rewarding bad behavior rather then wise stewardship. The new club is going to cause the place to change into exactly what they allegedly didn't want and voted down...but exactly what the official (el presidente) at the top of the steaming pile of Pemi wanted, allegedly he signing off on the imba based sidewalk plan causing his co president and founder of the new club to split. Meanwhile The USFS has approved the unwanted changes, counting on the club, which vetoed it, to do the work....Its all just so unnecessarily freaking Greasy

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    Quote Originally Posted by iceboxsteve View Post

    I personally would love to support NEMBA but they are an aging, divisive, and poor advocacy org.

    ...

    New England needs more than VMBA showing folks how a modern, professional, org can help communities through trails.

    Yes, it's obvious that VT is a shining example of a lack of division regarding MTBing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iceboxsteve View Post

    .

    Every. Single. Interaction I've had with them has been negative, the club leadership I've dealt with is clueless both in trail design and construction and advocacy and nonprofit management.
    I'm not here to defend NEMBA but you can't possibly ride Lowell Dracut, Vietnam, Russell Mill, Billerica etc and say they haven't done well with trail building.

    (PS - ditto what Haint said)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott O View Post
    I'm not here to defend NEMBA but you can't possibly ride Lowell Dracut, Vietnam, Russell Mill, Billerica etc and say they haven't done well with trail building.
    100%

    And that list can be easily expanded into the double digits.
    There are tons and tons of good trails around here, and we don't seem to have issues with constant drama either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    100%

    And that list can be easily expanded into the double digits.
    There are tons and tons of good trails around here, and we don't seem to have issues with constant drama either.
    Agreed. MA NEMBA groups seem to have their sh!t together and do a great job trail building. But I can understand that in the White Mountains they might have different views and priorities than we here in MA. Different motivations for developing trails, trail building much more on privately owned land, empahsis on tourism, etc.

    One would hope that Nemba and wmbc could coexist and even help one another out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Yes, it's obvious that VT is a shining example of a lack of division regarding MTBing.

    If you look at the astonishing number and variety of trails available in VT right now, the VMBA/Chapter arrangement looks pretty successful to me. Don't confuse one particularly antagonistic forum-based voice as evidence of statewide division.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RideVT View Post
    If you look at the astonishing number and variety of trails available in VT right now, the VMBA/Chapter arrangement looks pretty successful to me. Don't confuse one particularly antagonistic forum-based voice as evidence of statewide division.
    Dig it. Basically the same thing I was saying about NEMBA and people who tend to paint with an overly broad brush.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RideVT View Post
    If you look at the astonishing number and variety of trails available in VT right now, the VMBA/Chapter arrangement looks pretty successful to me. Don't confuse one particularly antagonistic forum-based voice as evidence of statewide division.
    The entire state of VT markets the outdoors, lots of space, fewer people. MA, almost all public space, lack of support from the Gov, mostly mutli use trails in very populated areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iceboxsteve View Post
    Bingo!

    Just read the releases. One is very professional and friendly, on a professional looking website. One is a rant on Facebook.

    I for one am stoked to see WMBC step away from NEMBA. The poor org has lost relevancy with many and the old guard is struggling to keep up. They have a ton of cash sitting around to pay the next ED when they finally hire them (my money is on one of the said old guard).

    It's a shame. I personally would love to support NEMBA but they are an aging, divisive, and poor advocacy org. They are really good at buying pizza and teaching members the art of backdoor handshakes to develop trails.

    Every. Single. Interaction I've had with them has been negative, the club leadership I've dealt with is clueless both in trail design and construction and advocacy and nonprofit management.

    New England needs more than VMBA showing folks how a modern, professional, org can help communities through trails.

    EDIT: I should add, if in deed there was a misunderstanding and some sort of legal issue with funds is real, I don't support that. But to be fair, I don't think WMBC intended any harm, if anything possible ignorance. NEMBA's response on the other hand...
    Axe to grind perhaps? Nemba started mt bike advocacy here in New England, huge amounts of success. Poor Advocacy? Like buying Vietnam and countless other trail wins? LLF for one. It may be that WM needed a different direction, seems some big capital ( ski areas) are coming in with some funds, great. Maybe it will be the next KT with overcrowding. Clueless in trail design? And Construction? Yikes. We're talking volunteer labor on multi use trails on public lands. Brown sidewalks on private land with a full time trail crew? That's something different. We've chatted before, nothing has changed. Cheers. See you out on all the terrible trails we've built over the last 25+ years.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Axe to grind perhaps? Nemba started mt bike advocacy here in New England, huge amounts of success. Poor Advocacy? Like buying Vietnam and countless other trail wins? LLF for one. It may be that WM needed a different direction, seems some big capital ( ski areas) are coming in with some funds, great. Maybe it will be the next KT with overcrowding. Clueless in trail design? And Construction? Yikes. We're talking volunteer labor on multi use trails on public lands. Brown sidewalks on private land with a full time trail crew? That's something different. We've chatted before, nothing has changed. Cheers. See you out on all the terrible trails we've built over the last 25+ years.
    There are no funds coming in from ski areas for mtb trails in the MWV. The major projects being done this summer are funded by the White Mountain Trail Collective and by the WMBC with crowd sourced funding and donations from membership. (WMBC membership specifically, like the new Charlie donít surf)

    Itís all not for profit build out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elsinore View Post
    There are no funds coming in from ski areas for mtb trails in the MWV. The major projects being done this summer are funded by the White Mountain Trail Collective and by the WMBC with crowd sourced funding and donations from membership. (WMBC membership specifically, like the new Charlie donít surf)

    Itís all not for profit build out.
    So right on your page says Cranmore is a partner? Hmm. Land manager partner? Seems like there are some good things happening up there. Resource, town support and buildable land wise. Just wish there was a little more transparency in the changing of the guard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RideVT View Post
    If you look at the astonishing number and variety of trails available in VT right now, the VMBA/Chapter arrangement looks pretty successful to me. Don't confuse one particularly antagonistic forum-based voice as evidence of statewide division.
    I'll second this. I own a place in VT and ride there a lot. In the past 5 years, so many new trails and trail systems have come online that it makes my head spin. Most of it is really good, too, and it's not just brown sidewalk either. Places like Rochester, Randolph, Ascutney, Poultney, Mount Peg, etc. all have awesome new natural gnar trails (and some brown sidewalk too, i guess). It's really quite astonishing what they've been able to do in such a short time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    So right on your page says Cranmore is a partner? Hmm. Land manager partner? Seems like there are some good things happening up there. Resource, town support and buildable land wise. Just wish there was a little more transparency in the changing of the guard.
    Ya.

    WMBC has an MOU with Cranmore just like it has with every other land manager in the valley, USFS, CCC, USVLT, etc.



    As far as the transparency comment goes, the story will come out there. If you really want to know wtf is going on then come up here and ride. You will get the picture pretty quickly.

    If what your interested in is drama then all you have have to do is go on the Regional FB page to see what propaganda the nemba president has been pedaling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elsinore View Post
    Ya.

    WMBC has an MOU with Cranmore just like it has with every other land manager in the valley, USFS, CCC, USVLT, etc.



    As far as the transparency comment goes, the story will come out there. If you really want to know wtf is going on then come up here and ride. You will get the picture pretty quickly.

    If what your interested in is drama then all you have have to do is go on the Regional FB page to see what propaganda the nemba president has been pedaling.
    Great, MOU's are a good way to get stuff done and provide a frame work that both parties can work with. I may visit if and when this Covid thing passes or such. Not interested in drama, not my thing. Just hard to get a clear picture with he said/ she said, that's all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    100%

    And that list can be easily expanded into the double digits.
    There are tons and tons of good trails around here, and we don't seem to have issues with constant drama either.
    yup, we had Zero problems with any trails or mt biking issues in this area pre 2012. 1983-2012 is a pretty good run of local successful stewardship. Your Nemba club built trails in Mass, awesome, good place for them and the crowds. Pemi nemba does not build trails, in 2012 they took over, unbuilt, only ridden in, non raked, town trails. Combine that with their ego stuffed ears, a revolving door of membership and officers leaving the club in disgust over the years, their compulsive desire to control opinions and narratives online, outright lies, secret squirrel meetings and it is a big problem. At least in 2012 you knew what business's, individuals, were supporting and who wasn't, now its just a mysterious group limited to "trail builders", who don't build trails, seems usually non profit exclusive, but apparently have a expedited line to the USFS decision makers. What a sad joke.
    Finally a few folks have reached out on this platform and others to say things like " Come ride in North Conway, I'm not a member and don't support any group, but come and ride"... the trails they didn't build or support, which I think is kind of being an ass but very telling of some mt biker attitudes... As well as "I don't support these guys ( pemi) and wrote them to say ok make a club, but go somewhere else and build something, leave smarts alone". Another wrote, who is a member of the groups, agreed that "brown sidewalks and more tourists are not the answer." A local bike shop owner, who championed nemba at first, is all done with the group, disgusted by the ego and greed.
    Unfortunately this new effort here, and that which came before, have soured the local landowners in the area to opening up, and even closing down access to areas. While the new guys claim to be forming up to save smarts, they are actually the cause of its destruction and can't go anywhere else due to their past actions, demonstrating real concern would be to just leave the place alone. be well

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    Quote Originally Posted by justrideyourbike View Post
    yup, we had Zero problems with any trails or mt biking issues in this area pre 2012. 1983-2012 is a pretty good run of local successful stewardship. Your Nemba club built trails in Mass, awesome, good place for them and the crowds. Pemi nemba does not build trails, in 2012 they took over, unbuilt, only ridden in, non raked, town trails. Combine that with their ego stuffed ears, a revolving door of membership and officers leaving the club in disgust over the years, their compulsive desire to control opinions and narratives online, outright lies, secret squirrel meetings and it is a big problem. At least in 2012 you knew what business's, individuals, were supporting and who wasn't, now its just a mysterious group limited to "trail builders", who don't build trails, seems usually non profit exclusive, but apparently have a expedited line to the USFS decision makers. What a sad joke.
    Finally a few folks have reached out on this platform and others to say things like " Come ride in North Conway, I'm not a member and don't support any group, but come and ride"... the trails they didn't build or support, which I think is kind of being an ass but very telling of some mt biker attitudes... As well as "I don't support these guys ( pemi) and wrote them to say ok make a club, but go somewhere else and build something, leave smarts alone". Another wrote, who is a member of the groups, agreed that "brown sidewalks and more tourists are not the answer." A local bike shop owner, who championed nemba at first, is all done with the group, disgusted by the ego and greed.
    Unfortunately this new effort here, and that which came before, have soured the local landowners in the area to opening up, and even closing down access to areas. While the new guys claim to be forming up to save smarts, they are actually the cause of its destruction and can't go anywhere else due to their past actions, demonstrating real concern would be to just leave the place alone. be well
    Jim
    Nothing left to add here. Move on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike93 View Post
    Jim
    Nothing left to add here. Move on.
    Has Smartís changed at all since 2012?
    Iíve ridden there fairly regularly and I just donít see it. Havenít the foggiest as to what he keeps going on about.

    In fact, I can can count the number of times Iíve ran into folks I donít know in there on one hand. And thatís over 20 years.

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    hey Mike, This new group trying to do exactly what you told me was why you had left the first pemi group. Seems its time for the Nemba/new group guys to go find another playground to ruin, or better yet, maybe actually go build something. If I am correct on your ID, you wrote to me saying while you were part of the first effort you left the group for many of the reasons I have stated, and now you're involved with the new/old group, to do the exact same thing. You and your buddies brought government to the trails, didn't like the vote outcome, and are trying to take another shot at the member vetoed plan by forming a new group of distilled/rendered down former and current pemi nemba guys I guess. Nobody rides there? Enough folks are coming where they are parking on the grass and road sides now at the parking areas...with no bathrooms. Its growing despite your never seeing anyone assertions. Misinformation doesn't help either, I received an email from the USFS saying they approved the wanosha project, just to have another person tell me they haven't decided anything yet and that your boy matt is writing yet another proposal. Go and just ride in there, stop trying to be the man, or the group, or the cool guys, or whatever is driving this...or maybe its all about the grant money that will be required to build the IMBA dirt sidewalks? Local nemba pres and WMTC executive director, (husband and wife,) former executive dir of WMTC and president of pemi and the guy writing the newest proposal are all behind this newest push. Except they reached out to a nice young kid at the Waterville outdoor center and asked him to be the face of the new club as opposed to theirs....things that make you go hmmmm. Can you tell me as to the need for all of this besides more tourists, less trails, and the juice/vig WMTC will take off the possible grant cash? Why aren't you guys approaching Waterville valley to build trails there? It has a much better infrastructure, even a couple of bars to go and pose...i mean look cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by justrideyourbike View Post
    hey Mike, This new group trying to do exactly what you told me was why you had left the first pemi group. Seems its time for the Nemba/new group guys to go find another playground to ruin, or better yet, maybe actually go build something. If I am correct on your ID, you wrote to me saying while you were part of the first effort you left the group for many of the reasons I have stated, and now you're involved with the new/old group, to do the exact same thing. You and your buddies brought government to the trails, didn't like the vote outcome, and are trying to take another shot at the member vetoed plan by forming a new group of distilled/rendered down former and current pemi nemba guys I guess. Nobody rides there? Enough folks are coming where they are parking on the grass and road sides now at the parking areas...with no bathrooms. Its growing despite your never seeing anyone assertions. Misinformation doesn't help either, I received an email from the USFS saying they approved the wanosha project, just to have another person tell me they haven't decided anything yet and that your boy matt is writing yet another proposal. Go and just ride in there, stop trying to be the man, or the group, or the cool guys, or whatever is driving this...or maybe its all about the grant money that will be required to build the IMBA dirt sidewalks? Local nemba pres and WMTC executive director, (husband and wife,) former executive dir of WMTC and president of pemi and the guy writing the newest proposal are all behind this newest push. Except they reached out to a nice young kid at the Waterville outdoor center and asked him to be the face of the new club as opposed to theirs....things that make you go hmmmm. Can you tell me as to the need for all of this besides more tourists, less trails, and the juice/vig WMTC will take off the possible grant cash? Why aren't you guys approaching Waterville valley to build trails there? It has a much better infrastructure, even a couple of bars to go and pose...i mean look cool.
    Maybe Iím misunderstanding this here, but to be clear Iíve never been involved in Pemi Valley NEMBA. Iíve built trail in Plymouth, but they have no connection to nemba now or when built.

    It also seems like you are trying to tie together Pemi nemba, the WMTC and whatís going on in Conway somehow. No connections there either.

    For the record the people you keep throwing under the bus are good folks who are doing great work. They are helping facilitate major, progressive change and phenomenal new trail development in the Valley. Itís all legit work, with the project info publicly available.


    I donít know the details of whatís going on in smarts, but after riding there recently it seems essentially unchanged. Like others mention here I donít see what the problem is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elsinore View Post
    Maybe Iím misunderstanding this here, but to be clear Iíve never been involved in Pemi Valley NEMBA. Iíve built trail in Plymouth, but they have no connection to nemba now or when built.

    It also seems like you are trying to tie together Pemi nemba, the WMTC and whatís going on in Conway somehow. No connections there either.

    For the record the people you keep throwing under the bus are good folks who are doing great work. They are helping facilitate major, progressive change and phenomenal new trail development in the Valley. Itís all legit work, with the project info publicly available.


    I donít know the details of whatís going on in smarts, but after riding there recently it seems essentially unchanged. Like others mention here I donít see what the problem is.
    He is not referring to you but to me. I do appreciate your objective opinion. Thanks. Hopefully we will run into each other riding Smarts.

    This thread is no longer productive or informative. It has become a venting area of baseless conjecture and groundless accusations on the part of one individual. Time to close it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike93 View Post
    He is not referring to you but to me. I do appreciate your objective opinion. Thanks. Hopefully we will run into each other riding Smarts.

    This thread is no longer productive or informative. It has become a venting area of baseless conjecture and groundless accusations on the part of one individual. Time to close it.
    It sure has, in fact the thread started with accusations and the sole intent to just stir the pot.

    The irony of his username is surreal.

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