The real reason KTA got gutted..- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    The real reason KTA got gutted..

    It wasn't a rude tourist yelling at an equestrian landowner. (I apologize to the tourists I reamed so hard in the other threads, although I still hate tourism economies) The real reason was that the KTA was trying to tell land owners they could not walk on groomed trails for fat biking on their own property.

    Yup. KTA treating landowners badly, NOT tourist and visitor treating landowners badly.

    The fact that they have let this false narrative perpetuate on social media and through VTDigger is mind-bending douche-baggery.

    I think we really need to have those correspondence made public.

    What A$$holes.
    While all this talk about rider ethics and a code of conduct ect goes on, and may have legitimacy, what they are letting us believe happened? That ain't what happened.
    Discuss?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    It wasn't a rude tourist yelling at an equestrian landowner. (I apologize to the tourists I reamed so hard in the other threads, although I still hate tourism economies) The real reason was that the KTA was trying to tell land owners they could not walk on groomed trails for fat biking on their own property.

    Yup. KTA treating landowners badly, NOT tourist and visitor treating landowners badly.

    The fact that they have let this false narrative perpetuate on social media and through VTDigger is mind-bending douche-baggery.

    I think we really need to have those correspondence made public.

    What A$$holes.
    While all this talk about rider ethics and a code of conduct ect goes on, and may have legitimacy, what they are letting us believe happened? That ain't what happened.
    Discuss?
    Dave, as you know I am relatively close to this. You are hitting much closer to the reason, that example you provided is sadly just a single example (not one I have heard of but I'm not surprised). Then again I have maintained pretty stoutly this whole time the blame is much closer to the KTA office than riders.

    There is much more to the story and I believe there are more challenges ahead over the next year.
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    Source? Not doubting the info, just curious where it came from.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    Source? Not doubting the info, just curious where it came from.
    I'll clearly let Dave speak for himself, but from my side, spoken with a few landowners and then have several close friends who are either related to landowners or close with additional landowners that have confirmed what I suspected for several years.

    Around town isn't really much of a secret.
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    It's a small state, and the resident MTB community is even smaller. People talk, and the truth comes out. As River said, there have been many issues, but in this case, the reason these landowners pulled out was the pressure KTA was trying to put on Landowners about post holing groomers on their property.

    It's really nuts the KTA managers would let all this dialogue take place, and let folks believe trail users were the trigger, not their own self-importance. The letter Lilas wrote sounds great, but is kind of dishonest through omission, and let us continue to believe Bad Behavior by "Us" was and continues to be the issue, and KTA takes responsibility for not watching us more closely.

    Adding Trail Patrols, creating a code of ethics, blah, blah, blah all speak to the issue as if riders are the bad actors. While there certainly may be some of that, certain there is....that ain't why Darling hill is now fractured, it was the interactions between KTA and the landowner that was the direct cause. If River knows more, I'd like to hear it.

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    Sound like a God complex to me. They really lost their way.

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    Geez. Forget KTA. I was on verge of just not riding there anymore and now I'll just be avoiding that place completely
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    While I cannot speak with authority on the KTA situation, what IS very familiar to me is the blaming of the cyclist (or in this case MTB rider). I'm a former bicycle commuter and for years I heard endless trash out of the mouths of drivers and city planners, or even cops. "Bikers need to be more courteous, need to ride near the edge of the road, need to obey laws, yada yada" on and on, the blame was always on those with the bicycle between their legs. I see a similar pattern off-road for slightly different reasons. It is pretty dispiriting to see all this hate for the bicycle on and off the road.

  9. #9
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    OK

    if that happened, F! KTA...

    go find your own land to have some hope of income and impact to the community dollar$
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  10. #10
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    https://projects.propublica.org/nonp...tions/30353477
    OK. So after having a CPA look at KTA's 990s, there are a few things that pop out. First, KTA has never been audited or reviewed. This is abnormal. Second, the executive director Tim T. was not even listed as an officer for many years, and no salaries for the officers are disclosed, despite the fact that they spend about $220,000 annually. Basically, my CPA tells me there 990s are not prepared properly. I think an audit and review of the KTA should be done in the public interest, for the sake of public trust.

    For an organization of this size, it would be very uncommon to not have an audit by an independent accountant, at least every few years.
    Last edited by DaveVt; 4 Weeks Ago at 06:08 PM.

  11. #11
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    Dave it looks like they may have changed the fiscal year end from September to October in 2011 so this might be a ‘short year’ filing but have your CPA check it out. I guess the term ‘follow the money’ is appropriate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    It wasn't a rude tourist yelling at an equestrian landowner. (I apologize to the tourists I reamed so hard in the other threads, although I still hate tourism economies) The real reason was that the KTA was trying to tell land owners they could not walk on groomed trails for fat biking on their own property.

    Yup. KTA treating landowners badly, NOT tourist and visitor treating landowners badly.

    The fact that they have let this false narrative perpetuate on social media and through VTDigger is mind-bending douche-baggery.

    I think we really need to have those correspondence made public.

    What A$$holes.
    While all this talk about rider ethics and a code of conduct ect goes on, and may have legitimacy, what they are letting us believe happened? That ain't what happened.
    Discuss?
    Are you saying that KTA was telling landowners that they could not walk on trails that were groomed for fat biking even thought it was their property? And that is what pissed landowners off?

    If that is correct that is just amazing.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Are you saying that KTA was telling landowners that they could not walk on trails that were groomed for fat biking even thought it was their property? And that is what pissed landowners off?

    If that is correct that is just amazing.
    Yes. Then they let everyone believe it was a disrespectful rider, and perpetuated that by their refusal to make the correspondence public and release their statement about how how they need more trail stewards and develop a code of ethics ect. Blamed you all for their own inane behavior. Feel welcome? Feel appreciated? Yeah, I would feel thrown under the bus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    It wasn't a rude tourist yelling at an equestrian landowner. (I apologize to the tourists I reamed so hard in the other threads, although I still hate tourism economies) The real reason was that the KTA was trying to tell land owners they could not walk on groomed trails for fat biking on their own property.

    Yup. KTA treating landowners badly, NOT tourist and visitor treating landowners badly.

    The fact that they have let this false narrative perpetuate on social media and through VTDigger is mind-bending douche-baggery.

    I think we really need to have those correspondence made public.

    What A$$holes.
    While all this talk about rider ethics and a code of conduct ect goes on, and may have legitimacy, what they are letting us believe happened? That ain't what happened.
    Discuss?
    Thank you for posting and bringing the truth to light. Likewise, thanks River19 for contributing.

    This is extremely unfortunate for that area. I went there last year for the first time and while the trails are decidedly XC, (I was expecting a little more challenging terrain), it was still a fun weekend.

    After hearing all this I'm afraid it will likely only get worse between the land owners and KTA before it gets better. A couple of rocky years ahead I suspect. Not to mention the Circumburke race didn't happen for political BS reasons. The local economy it going to take a serious hit I suspect.

    I for one will not go back and give the KTA my money until they find their way again. Hopefully they will learn some hard lessons and come out the other side a better association, though I fear the problems brought to light here are toxic and can't be resolved unless the decision makers at the KTA are removed and replaced by more rational people with their heads screwed on strait.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Yes. Then they let everyone believe it was a disrespectful rider, and perpetuated that by their refusal to make the correspondence public and release their statement about how how they need more trail stewards and develop a code of ethics ect. Blamed you all for their own inane behavior. Feel welcome? Feel appreciated? Yeah, I would feel thrown under the bus.
    What individual made this decision? Whoever that individual is should be removed from his/her position.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    What individual made this decision? Whoever that individual is should be removed from his/her position.
    Abby Long and or Lilias Ide.

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    https://projects.propublica.org/nonp...tions/30353477
    OK. So after having a CPA look at KTA's 990s, there are a few things that pop out. First, KTA has never been audited or reviewed. This is abnormal. Second, the executive director Tim T. was not even listed as an officer for many years, and no salaries for the officers are disclosed, despite the fact that they spend about $220,000 annually.
    Also, from FY 2016 to FY 2017 there's a major shift in expenses. They went from spending the bulk of their money on trails ect, and about 20K annually on their "Educational Series"for a decade, which showed no revenue....to spending $270K on that same series, showing a revenue of $591 thousand dollars. WTF is that about?


    Basically, my CPA tells me there 990s are not prepared properly. I think an audit and review of the KTA should be done in the public interest, for the sake of public trust.

    For an organization of this size, it would be very uncommon to not have an audit by an independent accountant, at least every few years.

  18. #18
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    1. Vote of no confidence or whatever-purge the current administration if they don’t step down. Burning bridges with the old guard is best avoided if possible. KT has a great history.
    2. Convince local riders who are friends with the landowners and/or have local business or political contacts to communicate with the landowners and take leadership positions.
    3. Such people should realize that their names are not on the deeds, they are not paying taxes and mortgages for the property and they are not going to work to make income to spend on the property. Also , insulting and shaming people is not going to recruit anyone to their side. Yes, I know it seems I being condescending, but i have seen this situation keep repeating itself during my 30+ years of riding.
    4. Kill the festival unless the community votes for it. Bike demos and other events should be regulated.
    5. Skills sessions for local kids and women may help.
    6. Work with IMBA to resolve the issue.
    7. Adopt IMBA rules and educate, enforce, and self police.
    8. I’m guilty of this - sitting on the sidelines.




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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
    6. Work with IMBA to resolve the issue.
    7. Adopt IMBA rules and educate, enforce, and self police.
    Not to derail, but IMBA brings nothing positive to this conversation. Not a fan.
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  20. #20
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    Listen, I love the area, the people, even find enough decent trail among the dirt sidewalks to enjoy as a home base. BUT, I don't like how KTA has treated some of the landowners, some of the local community members and I hate that they knowingly looked the other way for years as their "leadership" proved over and over there was a missing moral compass.

    The original founders had the best of intentions, at least that is what I believe. The community that supported this for 20+ years deserves better stewardship. The current situation now is so many local businesses are dependent on the summer riders and so many community members not directly involved in KT or a business are impacted by their actions and in many cases inaction. Their leadership has never been held accountable, by the community, by customers, by landowners etc. until finally 4 landowners had enough. It sucks.

    Had they had their crap together and acted like good stewards, while we may not all like the style of trail perhaps it never would have gotten to the point it did.

    I don't see how the same people can possibly run the system this season........
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    1.4 million in cash
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike93 View Post
    1.4 million in cash
    And yet their response to the hoards crippling the community was to point out they received a grant to do a feasibility study on infrastructure..... um, they could have paid for that study 10+ times over out of their own pocket. Let alone there is no way anyone needed an academic study to know where help was needed.

    Just a real failure of stewardship, I'm sorry, it just is.
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    What's really weird as we look at this again this morning, the 990 from 2018 suggests that around 85% of the people buying passes and ticket are doing so for Education.

    In 1 year they went from spending basically all their money on trails, to spending half on Education, which now makes up the massive bulk of their revenue. The revenue side of that is odd considering the mix of revenue didn't change, but all of the sudden 600k is people buying passes for nature education, trees, butterflys...ect.

    You could speculate on why. One reason could be to protect their 501c3 status.

    If my CPA was auditing this org, and she was a professional auditor in the state of Vt for years, she would be "Asking a bunch of question, and carefully measuring the reactions to said questions."

    Fun Stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    What's really weird as we look at this again this morning, the 990 from 2018 suggests that around 85% of the people buying passes and ticket are doing so for Education.

    In 1 year they went from spending basically all their money on trails, to spending half on Education, which now makes up the massive bulk of their revenue. The revenue side of that is odd considering the mix of revenue didn't change, but all of the sudden 600k is people buying passes for nature education, trees, butterflys...ect.

    You could speculate on why. One reason could be to protect their 501c3 status.

    If my CPA was auditing this org, and she was a professional auditor in the state of Vt for years, she would be "Asking a bunch of question, and carefully measuring the reactions to said questions."

    Fun Stuff.
    Bingo.

    And Dave, the one singular major change with the 2018 filing vs. previous years was that the new ED signed off on it. Prior to that Tim T. signed off on all that crap and in the meantime while they were replacing him with AL The KTA Treasurer signed off.

    Listen, I'm pretty familiar with corporate finance, this is a steaming pile...... But I'm not a CPA so while it smells like pure fiction to me, I won't pretend to say exactly how it is wrong as I'll leave that to the experts. BUT, their business and revenue stream didn't change, it 95% originates from people riding their bicycles.....merch sales and advertising is because people are there riding their bicycles......

    In my 10+ years of annual "membership" I haven't come across one person in search of a Nature Education series about Summer Landscapes......

    Eff me.....this is so sad.....and avoidable......
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  25. #25
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    I'm on the other side of the country and active with local advocacy. What strikes me as odd is the leadership of this Trails Association. If this trail system requires private property owners to give consent and access to their properties, it would make sense, to me, to have numerous property owners involved in the Trail Association.

    I've read that this trail system has helped some local businesses. It makes sense, to me, to have numerous local business owners on the decision making board.

    This unfortunate situation, which is impacting so many, seems to me could have been avoided if there was better communication and more diverse representation. I truly hope a new and better Board will be created and dialog started to try to find a way to work out the issues. The issues were not addressed, as far as I see, which equates to poor leadership. Good luck all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike93 View Post
    Butterflies and zebras and moonbeams
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    Who knew it was so lucrative!

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    A google search of Kingdom Trails Education comes up empty.
    Last edited by mtbmike93; 3 Weeks Ago at 06:01 AM.

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    Hikers who posthole groomed trails are the worst. They ruin the trail for hikers, runners, cyclists and skiers. If someone puts in work to make a trail smooth and someone follows that up by ruining it in the worst way possible, they don't deserve respect. When the temperatures get too warm for solid walking, use snowshoes please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    Hikers who posthole groomed trails are the worst. They ruin the trail for hikers, runners, cyclists and skiers. If someone puts in work to make a trail smooth and someone follows that up by ruining it in the worst way possible, they don't deserve respect. When the temperatures get too warm for solid walking, use snowshoes please.
    Are you for real with this? A landowner who has let the public recreate on their hundreds of acres of land for 25 years just wants to walk their dogs on the trails on their land, and they don't deserve respect? They have probably hosted over a million visitors on their private property. You sound like a douche.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike93 View Post
    A google search of Kingdom Trails Education comes up empty.
    They don't have one. Their claim on their 990 is basically that 85% of the passes sold are for people to educate themselves about landscapes, trees, birdies, and butterflies. $600,000 is revenue....AND that they spend $250,000 on that effort....all years prior...15-20 thousand showing no revenue. Again, probably to protect their 501c3, but you'd really have to talk to them about it....something tells me they won't share much info. We'll see if VTdigger is interested or capable of finding out some details.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Are you for real with this? A landowner who has let the public recreate on their hundreds of acres of land for 25 years just wants to walk their dogs on the trails on their land, and they don't deserve respect? They have probably hosted over a million visitors on their private property. You sound like a douche.
    Walk your dog all you want, but put on snowshoes if you are postholing on a groomed trail. This is basic courtesy that I need to constantly remind hikers of. When the temperatures allow for it, you can ditch the snowshoes. The landowner is a primadonna who only allows people to use his land if he gets to be disrespectful and look down on people who call him out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    Walk your dog all you want, but put on snowshoes if you are postholing on a groomed trail. This is basic courtesy that I need to constantly remind hikers of. When the temperatures allow for it, you can ditch the snowshoes. The landowner is a primadonna who only allows people to use his land if he gets to be disrespectful and look down on people who call him out.

    I am proudly filled with piss and vinegar.
    Perfect example of a prima Donna making it hard for other bikers. Unfortunately he will never get it. If he is being problematic, the landowners should demand KTA to ban him and if necessary KTA should perform the necessary legal actions to ban him. Immediately.


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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    Walk your dog all you want, but put on snowshoes if you are postholing on a groomed trail. This is basic courtesy that I need to constantly remind hikers of. When the temperatures allow for it, you can ditch the snowshoes. The landowner is a primadonna who only allows people to use his land if he gets to be disrespectful and look down on people who call him out.

    I am proudly filled with piss and vinegar.
    Think about this a bit more. You might need too.
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    Back to our friends at KTA.

    I believe I read somewhere that KTA board members served 2 year terms.....I believe a number of them are over that term limit and I'm fairly certain some are still around from the Tim T. days where things were pretty shady/sketchy.

    At what point does the community, both local and the greater "rider community" just demand they clean house of the decision makers.....clearly there is a history of poor decisions and stewardship not to mention the very clear poor decision making and leadership over the past few months.
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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    Walk your dog all you want, but put on snowshoes if you are postholing on a groomed trail. This is basic courtesy that I need to constantly remind hikers of. When the temperatures allow for it, you can ditch the snowshoes. The landowner is a primadonna who only allows people to use his land if he gets to be disrespectful and look down on people who call him out.

    I am proudly filled with piss and vinegar.
    Where do you ride? Been to KTA? Or are you just that clueless about how stuff works?

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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    Hikers who posthole groomed trails are the worst. They ruin the trail for hikers, runners, cyclists and skiers. If someone puts in work to make a trail smooth and someone follows that up by ruining it in the worst way possible, they don't deserve respect. When the temperatures get too warm for solid walking, use snowshoes please.
    Actually the worst is fat bikers who ride on the skate lanes of XC ski trails. If you have ever wiped out on a downhill on skinny skiis because your ski got caught in a fat tire rut (even 1/2 an inch can do it) you know what I mean. Fat bikes are the least fun flavor of biking, why do people need to do it on the nordic ski trails? I tried fat biking but it felt like riding slowly with a broom handle up my a--. Skate skiing is way more fun and is more like riding.

  38. #38
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    Any organization dealing with over $1 mill a year in revenue should ( hopefully) have a D&O Liability Insurance policy ( Directors and officers) and also have the a Fidelity Bond in effect to make sure they are covered in the event of a theft etc. If neither of these things were in place anyone sitting on that board is crazy to be part of that organization.... just my .02

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    Skate skiing is more like riding than...riding?

    I agree that postholing the groom/skintrack/hiking trail sucks, but when you own the land and give free permission for others to use it, I guess that means you get to posthole now and again. I know if someone gave me crap for how I chose to recreate on my own land, I'd consider revoking the privilege of them charging other people to use it.

    This whole thing is really sad. A change in leadership of KTA, or at least a refocus on their core mission and values, sounds like it is sorely needed. That said, as a long time nonprofit guy and on and off board member, wrangling up board members to take on the work and responsibilities (including fiscal oversight and accompanying liability for the actions of the org) is not as easy as one might think. Two-year terms are pretty standard, but often the few really motivated and involved board members will "run" for re-election again and again. Without knowing any of the KTA board, I have no idea if that is the case, but nonprofits sadly don't always have the pick of most engaged, connected, motivated, mission-focused yet financially savvy (and hopefully generous!) board members. If any of you live in the NEK, step up and make your offer to volunteer known! Otherwise, calling out volunteer board members for having their priorities wrong feels pretty low.

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    I've been riding trails in the snow for almost 30 years, and I'd like to take this opportunity to give a hearty '**** you' to that special type of entitled person who thinks because they went out and bought a fadbike, they now get to dictate to everyone else where, when and how they're allowed to use public trails. I've run into this around here too. Ridiculous.

    They all need to be slapped silly with their stupid pogies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I've been riding trails in the snow for almost 30 years, and I'd like to take this opportunity to give a hearty '**** you' to that special type of entitled person who thinks because they went out and bought a fadbike, they now get to dictate to everyone else where, when and how they're allowed to use public trails. I've run into this around here too. Ridiculous.

    They all need to be slapped silly with their stupid pogies.
    Lol. I actually like poggies though because, well....
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Lol. I actually like poggies though because, well....
    Oh, they definitely have their place. Frigging dork-meter gets pinned when it's 35 degrees and sunny, the trails are packed like asphalt, and you get these people gearing up like they're headed out on the Iditabike with 7" tires and pogies up to their armpits.

    "These bikes will go through anything!" they like to say.
    Yeah, anything as long as it's a perfectly groomed snow sidewalk apparently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Oh, they definitely have their place. Frigging dork-meter gets pinned when it's 35 degrees and sunny, the trails are packed like asphalt, and you get these people gearing up like they're headed out on the Iditabike with 7" tires and pogies up to their armpits.

    "These bikes will go through anything!" they like to say.
    Yeah, anything as long as it's a perfectly groomed snow sidewalk apparently.

    I remember your aversion to pogies from previous discussions.....

    I promise I only use them in 20 or below so I can wear normal riding glove.....I swear !!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    I remember your aversion to pogies from previous discussions.....

    I promise I only use them in 20 or below so I can wear normal riding glove.....I swear !!!!
    I'm watching you Focker!

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Oh, they definitely have their place. Frigging dork-meter gets pinned when it's 35 degrees and sunny, the trails are packed like asphalt, and you get these people gearing up like they're headed out on the Iditabike with 7" tires and pogies up to their armpits.

    "These bikes will go through anything!" they like to say.
    Yeah, anything as long as it's a perfectly groomed snow sidewalk apparently.

    Ha...ha....we see them here in CT too. On days when my hands are sweating 3 miles in with med duty gloves!
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I've been riding trails in the snow for almost 30 years, and I'd like to take this opportunity to give a hearty '**** you' to that special type of entitled person who thinks because they went out and bought a fadbike, they now get to dictate to everyone else where, when and how they're allowed to use public trails. I've run into this around here too. Ridiculous.

    They all need to be slapped silly with their stupid pogies.


    Totally agree.... Depending on location, it is not very cool that this person is out on the trails telling hikers to get snowshoes. These are likely public trail systems, and nothing gets bike access revoked faster than a local town perceiving that rowdy bikers are antagonizing gentle hikers on public trails. Private lands can dictate snowshoe use all they want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neeko b View Post
    Totally agree.... Depending on location, it is not very cool that this person is out on the trails telling hikers to get snowshoes. These are likely public trail systems, and nothing gets bike access revoked faster than a local town perceiving that rowdy bikers are antagonizing gentle hikers on public trails. Private lands can dictate snowshoe use all they want.
    Yup. Around here, the whining has been not just about hikers but also normal mountain bikers.

    "I bought a new toy, so now I make the rules"

    Yeah, no.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I've been riding trails in the snow for almost 30 years, and I'd like to take this opportunity to give a hearty '**** you' to that special type of entitled person who thinks because they went out and bought a fadbike, they now get to dictate to everyone else where, when and how they're allowed to use public trails. I've run into this around here too. Ridiculous.

    They all need to be slapped silly with their stupid pogies.
    Yeah, I know what you mean...just like all of those posers with their Rampage fantasies riding bike parks with their super long-travel bikes, full-face helmets, pads everywhere. You know what I mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2dummies View Post
    Yeah, I know what you mean...just like all of those posers with their Rampage fantasies riding bike parks with their super long-travel bikes, full-face helmets, pads everywhere. You know what I mean?
    Never had any of those guys try to tell me I shouldn't be riding on a public trails cuz I didn't meet their shopping criteria, know what I mean?

    Did I hit a little too close to home for ya?
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Never had any of those guys try to tell me I shouldn't be riding on a public trails cuz I didn't meet their shopping criteria. IME, they don't tend to fit into that special niche of douche, know what I mean?

    Did I hit a little too close to home for ya?
    I guess it's a different kind of douche...wearing the costume anywhere, "schralping the loam", and freaking out other users. At the same time, I've got no axe to grind with them (other than the trail abuse)...they're just living out their fantasy.

    And yes, I do have a "fadbike" if that's what you mean...and it so so much more awesome than every other permutation for snow riding that I've tried over the past 30+ years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2dummies View Post
    I guess it's a different kind of douche...wearing the costume anywhere, "schralping the loam", and freaking out other users. At the same time, I've got no axe to grind with them (other than the trail abuse)...they're just living out their fantasy.

    And yes, I do have a "fadbike" if that's what you mean...and it so so much more awesome than every other permutation for snow riding that I've tried over the past 30+ years.
    'Freaking out other users' and 'abusing' the trails at dedicated bike parks, on dedicated trails on private property? Uhhh...okay...

    Actually nothing wrong with fatbikes at all but there's a solid contingent users out there who consider themselves quite a bit more special than they actual are, simply due to swiping a credit card. If you're not the type that whines about footprints or non-fat tire tracks in snow and thinks everybody else needs to stay home 'cuz grooming', then you're not one of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    ...there's a solid contingent users out there who consider themselves quite a bit more special than they actual are...
    I'll note in passing that this seems to apply to just about every branch of equipment preference...

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    Thanks to fatbikers these trails are usable for hikers in the winter, so they repay them by making fatbikers never want to groom the trails again. Fortunately, the hikers I deal with are super friendly and very few actively destroy the work of others. The few hikers who lack courtesy get a bad name for themselves from hikers, bikers, and skiers.

    It sounds like the groomers who do the KTA trails aren't doing a very good job. With the heavier, lower quantity snow Vermont has versus what I am grooming in, they shouldn't have this problem.

    The KTA trail system was far less fun then some of the many other trails I have ridden in Vermont, and the cluster of landowner nonsense makes this seem like a even less desirable area to spend 15 bucks to ride my bike.


    Does the pro postholing group here support the landowners right to drive a car over an expensive bridge designed for bikes? How about riding a horse on a freshly made trail that ends up destroying the berms. What if they were caught riding one of those new trail destroying pedal assist motorcycles that the KTA seems to fear more then anything?

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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    Thanks to fatbikers these trails are usable for hikers in the winter, ...

    Does the pro postholing group here support the landowners right to drive a car over an expensive bridge designed for bikes? How about riding a horse on a freshly made trail that ends up destroying the berms. What if they were caught riding one of those new trail destroying pedal assist motorcycles that the KTA seems to fear more then anything?
    I'm pretty sure people have been hiking in the snow pretty successfully for a little while prior to fatbikers deciding that groomed trails are a requirement.

    Aside from the fact that it's silly to compare snow with an actual structure like a bridge or something with a life expectancy beyond 'fleeting' such as an actual trail feature, yes, if someone owns the land, they should be able to do whatever the hell they want on it. It is theirs after all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbryanpeters View Post
    I'll note in passing that this seems to apply to just about every branch of equipment preference...
    True in a way, gear weenies can get weird, but I can't recall anyone else ever taking it upon themselves to go ahead and try to declare that legal public trails are only to be used by singlespeed/FS/rigid/29/26/etc riders.
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    I just want to say that if the OP is true, it's just crazy that they would throw away all of the summer riding for a little bit of fat biking. Honestly, it's ski season just go skiing and give the biking a rest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I'm pretty sure people have been hiking in the snow pretty successfully for a little while prior to fatbikers deciding that groomed trails are a requirement.

    Aside from the fact that it's silly to compare snow with an actual structure like a bridge or something with a life expectancy beyond 'fleeting' such as an actual trail feature, yes, if someone owns the land, they should be able to do whatever the hell they want on it. It is theirs after all.
    Hiking in the snow has gone on for years, so if they aren't dependant on the grooming, they can hike off the trail, where there is no grooming. Sounds like a win win for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epic View Post
    I just want to say that if the OP is true, it's just crazy that they would throw away all of the summer riding for a little bit of fat biking. Honestly, it's ski season just go skiing and give the biking a rest.
    Totally agree. Thats the best thing about Northern New England, you can do sports seasonally. If you do nordic, ski-mo, or snowshoe all winter you will be in way better shape come spring than riding some fat bike with a 2 foot wide bottom bracket.

    This discussion also underscores an earlier point - keep all trail user forms SEPARATE. Multi use trails DO NOT WORK. Quit trying to be a peace broker between user groups who don''t share the same recreational values. People fundamentally dont like each others recreation choices. I am a self proclaimed old XC mtn bike dude and I cant stand fat bikes and the E-bike / Shuttle up / DH / enduro-bro culture that has invaded mountain biking over the past 10 years. I think mountain biking is type 2 fun, those peeps want type 1 fun. We all have different values that are hard to reconcile, so just keep users separate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endosch2 View Post
    Totally agree. Thats the best thing about Northern New England, you can do sports seasonally. If you do nordic, ski-mo, or snowshoe all winter you will be in way better shape come spring than riding some fat bike with a 2 foot wide bottom bracket.

    This discussion also underscores an earlier point - keep all trail user forms SEPARATE. Multi use trails DO NOT WORK. Quit trying to be a peace broker between user groups who don''t share the same recreational values. People fundamentally dont like each others recreation choices. I am a self proclaimed old XC mtn bike dude and I cant stand fat bikes and the E-bike / Shuttle up / DH / enduro-bro culture that has invaded mountain biking over the past 10 years. I think mountain biking is type 2 fun, those peeps want type 1 fun. We all have different values that are hard to reconcile, so just keep users separate.
    There seems to only ever be conflict when one activity hits a "Commercial" level.

    Even on trails that are hiking only, like here in Vermont at Camel's Hump or Hunger Mtn, there may not be user conflict between different groups, but there is still massive degradation of the trails, and displacement of the resident users due to the sheer number of visiting users.

    Any activity that hits that critical mass quickly tips the balance of use vs. conservation/environmental/resource protection beyond any reasonable level of sustainability. If you care to listen to avid hikers in CVT who have been around for any extended period of time, you will hear a lot of, "I don't even go there anymore because there just too many people."

    In our world, Perry Hill. Cady Hill, places I was personally invested in with time, even before getting paid to do it, are now basically a totally different activity, and are almost exclusively MTB parks. Many locals who once enjoyed these open public spaces no longer feel safe or welcome.

    The concept that an individual who has hosted hundreds of thousands of tourists on their property for the last 2 and a half decades should be berated for walking on their own land regardless of "Groomer status" or any other trail condition seems so self centered, it really just has to be a troll. There's a landowner here in Northfield that gave me permission last year to build on the large parcel. I can't comprehend a situation where I would feel I had any right to inhibit their own personal behavior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endosch2 View Post
    Totally agree. Thats the best thing about Northern New England, you can do sports seasonally. If you do nordic, ski-mo, or snowshoe all winter you will be in way better shape come spring than riding some fat bike with a 2 foot wide bottom bracket.

    This discussion also underscores an earlier point - keep all trail user forms SEPARATE. Multi use trails DO NOT WORK. Quit trying to be a peace broker between user groups who don''t share the same recreational values. People fundamentally dont like each others recreation choices. I am a self proclaimed old XC mtn bike dude and I cant stand fat bikes and the E-bike / Shuttle up / DH / enduro-bro culture that has invaded mountain biking over the past 10 years. I think mountain biking is type 2 fun, those peeps want type 1 fun. We all have different values that are hard to reconcile, so just keep users separate.
    A couple of thoughts here. I have been an XC racer, backcountry skier, alpine area skier--both fixed and free-heel, snowshoer, and winter hiker. I also find fatbiking to be one of the best ways to explore and recreate in the winter (and summer). This is especially true in this age of increasingly unpredictable snow/weather conditions.

    While keeping users separate is a great theory, most places already have a limited number of trails for the number of users. How exactly are we to divide things up? Are you going to give up riding on any trail that was originally used by another user group? What about that large number of trails that were built by us open-minded types who intend to ride a range of bikes on them (rigid, SS, full-suspension, fat)?

    Not sure how you group fat bikes, e-bikes, enduro, etc. as the same thing. I can't think of any type of riding more Type 2 than slogging through fresh snow on a fat bike. It seems, for the most part, that you just don't like anything/anyone different than you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Oh, they definitely have their place. Frigging dork-meter gets pinned when it's 35 degrees and sunny, the trails are packed like asphalt, and you get these people gearing up like they're headed out on the Iditabike with 7" tires and pogies up to their armpits.

    "These bikes will go through anything!" they like to say.
    Yeah, anything as long as it's a perfectly groomed snow sidewalk apparently.

    Almost as bad is wearing ski goggles with the phat bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endosch2 View Post
    This discussion also underscores an earlier point - keep all trail user forms SEPARATE. Multi use trails DO NOT WORK. Quit trying to be a peace broker between user groups who don''t share the same recreational values. People fundamentally dont like each others recreation choices. I am a self proclaimed old XC mtn bike dude and I cant stand fat bikes and the E-bike / Shuttle up / DH / enduro-bro culture that has invaded mountain biking over the past 10 years. I think mountain biking is type 2 fun, those peeps want type 1 fun. We all have different values that are hard to reconcile, so just keep users separate.
    I completely disagree, and think you're projecting when it comes to not liking other user groups.

    First off, pretending that DH/shuttle culture hasn't been part of MTB since the very, very beginning shows that someone simply don't know the history of the sport. The idea that this is something new is wildly mistaken.

    Second, multi-use trails work fine in many places. Most actually. There's only conflict when one group decides that they have more 'right' to the trails than another. Be respectful, have fun, don't go thinking you own the forest (unless you actually do) and everything should work fine.

    I also am an old XC dude for the most part, but I have never got into any sort of bunker mentality about it. I've built and ridden XC, DH, BMX, park/DJ (kind of), gravel, snow, a little pavement when I have to....why in the world would anyone take something as fun as riding bikes and block themselves off from the majority of different ways to enjoy it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott O View Post
    Almost as bad is wearing ski goggles with the phat bike.
    Lenses or no?

    There might be a case to blame the enduro guys for that look.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endosch2 View Post
    Totally agree. Thats the best thing about Northern New England, you can do sports seasonally. If you do nordic, ski-mo, or snowshoe all winter you will be in way better shape come spring than riding some fat bike with a 2 foot wide bottom bracket.

    This discussion also underscores an earlier point - keep all trail user forms SEPARATE. Multi use trails DO NOT WORK. Quit trying to be a peace broker between user groups who don''t share the same recreational values. People fundamentally dont like each others recreation choices. I am a self proclaimed old XC mtn bike dude and I cant stand fat bikes and the E-bike / Shuttle up / DH / enduro-bro culture that has invaded mountain biking over the past 10 years. I think mountain biking is type 2 fun, those peeps want type 1 fun. We all have different values that are hard to reconcile, so just keep users separate.
    2 wheels, whats the difference? Fatbikes you don't like but a plus bike is ok? Or only 2.6? E bikes? That's a whole 'nother ball of wax. Are you riding with the shuttle Bros? guessing not. Yikes. Ride, rest, repeat. That's all there is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Yikes. Ride, rest, repeat. That's all there is.
    Yes, 100% agreed.

    Now I'm off to go ride some dreaded multi use trails on my miserable fat bike.......trails overseen and groomed by a bloodsucking VMBA chapter!!!

    Hopefully I won't be consumed by tourists or run off the trail by an ebike. Might even drink some of that overrated Vermont beer afterwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endosch2 View Post
    Totally agree. Thats the best thing about Northern New England, you can do sports seasonally. If you do nordic, ski-mo, or snowshoe all winter you will be in way better shape come spring than riding some fat bike with a 2 foot wide bottom bracket.

    This discussion also underscores an earlier point - keep all trail user forms SEPARATE. Multi use trails DO NOT WORK. Quit trying to be a peace broker between user groups who don''t share the same recreational values. People fundamentally dont like each others recreation choices. I am a self proclaimed old XC mtn bike dude and I cant stand fat bikes and the E-bike / Shuttle up / DH / enduro-bro culture that has invaded mountain biking over the past 10 years. I think mountain biking is type 2 fun, those peeps want type 1 fun. We all have different values that are hard to reconcile, so just keep users separate.
    So you’re demanding segregated trails for:
    1. Hikers
    2. Equestrians
    3. MTB (type 1 fun)
    4. MTB (type 2 fun)

    Where are trail runners allowed? Can they share #1? What about dog walkers?

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    To get back on topic:

    If the Real reason KTA was gutted was rudeness by KTA staff (rather than by bikers), why did the landowners kick out the just the bikers (rather than all of KTA)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCbos View Post
    To get back on topic:

    If the Real reason KTA was gutted was rudeness by KTA staff (rather than by bikers), why did the landowners kick out the just the bikers (rather than all of KTA)?
    KTA trail users are 99 percent MTB. More specifically, it was the KTA telling them they couldn't walk of the trails groomed for fat bikers...no fat bikers, no issue. Then there are other issues going back years associate with rude cyclists, but the final straw, from what i was told, was the grooming issue. Be nice to see the letters and just have everything out in the open.

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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    Hiking in the snow has gone on for years, so if they aren't dependant on the grooming, they can hike off the trail, where there is no grooming. Sounds like a win win for me.
    You should buy a bunch of land and make it happen then.
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    There are beautiful, groomed nordic ski trails on these landowners' properties. I see lots of skiers there (yes numbers are dwarfed by bikers). These landowners have been magnanimous in allowing that to continue.

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    Wouldn't post-holing be more of an issue for nordic skiers anyways, especially classic tracks? This post-holing incident in context with fat bikes seems weird to me.

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    I agree. There seems to be a hint of, "my brother's buddy's wife is the hairdresser for one on the land owners, and she heard..."
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraniteRash View Post
    Wouldn't post-holing be more of an issue for nordic skiers anyways, especially classic tracks? This post-holing incident in context with fat bikes seems weird to me.
    post holing makes it a real MTB ride, not some fluffernutted bike path ride. I don't like post holes but also don't bitch about them, it happens...
    it is part of the ride when you encounter them.

    KTA making millions off private property trails, then having the audacity to give landowners shine about who is allowed to do what on their own land ? beyond belief. no wonder the straws finally broke the camels back
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraniteRash View Post
    Wouldn't post-holing be more of an issue for nordic skiers anyways, especially classic tracks? This post-holing incident in context with fat bikes seems weird to me.
    Seemed weird to me the first time I heard people bitching about it, but as we've seen in this thread, it's apparently actually an issue for some riders. They also seem to get pretty bent out of shape if you ride a bike with less than 3.999" tires on it in the snow. "Ruts" yo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Seemed weird to me the first time I heard people bitching about it, but as we've seen in this thread, it's apparently actually an issue for some riders. They also seem to get pretty bent out of shape if you ride a bike with less than 3.999" tires on it in the snow. "Ruts" yo.
    ya I refuse to ride in winter until THEY go out with their 5 inch tires, so I can ride in their tracks my 4 inch tires peacefully...
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    ya i refuse to ride in winter until they go out with their 5 inch tires, so i can ride in their tracks my 4 inch tires peacefully...
    You're breaking the snow!!!!
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    Let's not get lost in thinking a disagreement over groomed trail usage is the singular thing that caused this current and developing situation......

    There is a long history of KTA ignoring the issues and no one in the community, user groups or landowners really holding them accountable for anything. There are enough people whose livelihood is directly tied to the trail system in some way that they all look the other way for the "greater good". Until a few had enough. There are multiple reasons for why landowners aren't happy.

    For me personally, this got me thinking, if KTA historically can't even manage what seems like the most obvious of foundational elements of their business (community/landowner relations) and then watching how they handled themselves over the past couple months, I figured there was more to the story. There is a lot more they missed the ball on.

    Some of it is public information with simple google help. Some of it is known by a number of community folk but they don't want to talk as the consequences for themselves, their businesses and KT in general are unknown.

    That being said, there are now more eyes than ever poking around this organization and wondering if everything is on the up and up. I don't see 2020 getting any easier for KTA. Sad as that kills me to type, but that is one thing I would put $ on if I were a betting man, which I am not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    Let's not get lost in thinking a disagreement over groomed trail usage is the singular thing that caused this current and developing situation......

    There is a long history of KTA ignoring the issues and no one in the community, user groups or landowners really holding them accountable for anything. There are enough people whose livelihood is directly tied to the trail system in some way that they all look the other way for the "greater good". Until a few had enough. There are multiple reasons for why landowners aren't happy.

    For me personally, this got me thinking, if KTA historically can't even manage what seems like the most obvious of foundational elements of their business (community/landowner relations) and then watching how they handled themselves over the past couple months, I figured there was more to the story. There is a lot more they missed the ball on.

    Some of it is public information with simple google help. Some of it is known by a number of community folk but they don't want to talk as the consequences for themselves, their businesses and KT in general are unknown.

    That being said, there are now more eyes than ever poking around this organization and wondering if everything is on the up and up. I don't see 2020 getting any easier for KTA. Sad as that kills me to type, but that is one thing I would put $ on if I were a betting man, which I am not.
    Well, act 250 exists to internalize the impacts to communities that organizations like the KTA externalize in the "Economic Impact Evaluations".

    We'll see what the Act 250 review does to the KTA, we know what it did to VHT. I know the Conines, the landowners at the Slate Valley trails are voluntarily submitting themselves to an act 250 review. According to their foundation manager they are also NOT enrolled in Current Use. Despite the fact the Wayfare, their massive online retailer of chinese-made crap sells furniture to immigrant detention centers with no plans to stop, personally they seem to be doing the right thing here in Vt. Poultney might be a place where a baseline of tourism could help the community somewhat, but they are already seeing push back for building out parking lots for hundreds of cars around town. Hopefully they have a more sustainable vision, and a cap on the ultimate number of users they wish to attract.

    VTDIGGER has the tax information, with the irregularities highlighted for them, we'll see if they run with it.

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    https://vtdigger.org/2020/01/28/nek-...cache=friendly

    And here we see Abby Long, Director of the KTA, begging the state to gut Act 250. As if none of the issues currently facing the KT exists. As if on cue....

    I called this action in the Victory thread. Screw the residents, this is about $.

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    If I was philosophically against tourism and tourism-based economies, the LAST place I would choose to move to would be the state of Vermont. Or at least I would be going in with eyes wide open as to the puts and takes of such a move. Of course there are many places within the state that historically have not been dependent on tourism, and long-time locals in such places rightfully may have a beef if the encroachment of tourism compromised their way of life. East Burke is kind of like that. Many of landowners on DH, it seems, have lived there a long time and the properties go back generations. When I started going to Burke in 2002, it was still a sleepy town except on the busiest of holiday weekends. While KTA has been around for 25 years, it's really only the past 10 years that have seen the explosion of crowds. It's amusing, though, when folks move to places like Stowe or Killington and then bitch about tourism, about people trying to market "their" trails, in places where tourism is and has been the one and only thing since the second world war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    https://vtdigger.org/2020/01/28/nek-...cache=friendly

    And here we see Abby Long, Director of the KTA, begging the state to gut Act 250. As if none of the issues currently facing the KT exists. As if on cue....

    I called this action in the Victory thread. Screw the residents, this is about $.
    I saw that article.

    I was under the impression, and by that I mean I've read the laws/rules for 501c3 as I was a Treasurer of one a while back........lobbying is a pretty strict "no no"....and could cause a loss of status.

    Come on KTA, you need to better understand the rules of the game you are playing.
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    That's only if a substantial part of their activities were lobbying....which clearly isn't the case.

    I read the 990 on probublica's website. I agree it looks really odd (as others have stated) that:

    - revenues declined from 2016 to 2018 even though attendance grew 50% during that time.
    - there was a change in the 2018 filing to classify most of their revenue and expenses as related to developing a nature education series (birds, butterflies, flowers!); in past years, most/all revenue and expenses was attributed to building and maintaining a trail network, with a de minimus amount attributed to nature education
    - no disclosure of salaries for officers (executive director is not an officer?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCbos View Post
    That's only if a substantial part of their activities were lobbying....which clearly isn't the case.

    I read the 990 on probublica's website. I agree it looks really odd (as others have stated) that:

    - revenues declined from 2016 to 2018 even though attendance grew 50% during that time.
    - there was a change in the 2018 filing to classify most of their revenue and expenses as related to developing a nature education series (birds, butterflies, flowers!); in past years, most/all revenue and expenses was attributed to building and maintaining a trail network, with a de minimus amount attributed to nature education
    - no disclosure of salaries for officers (executive director is not an officer?)
    They are not claiming a decrease in revenue, they are claiming that the massive bulk of their revenue suddenly shifted from MTBing to education, saying that 85 percent of ticket and pass sales were for people to learn about landscapes, trees, birdies and butterflies...and that half their expenditures were on said education. Receipts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCbos View Post
    That's only if a substantial part of their activities were lobbying....which clearly isn't the case.

    I read the 990 on probublica's website. I agree it looks really odd (as others have stated) that:

    - revenues declined from 2016 to 2018 even though attendance grew 50% during that time.
    - there was a change in the 2018 filing to classify most of their revenue and expenses as related to developing a nature education series (birds, butterflies, flowers!); in past years, most/all revenue and expenses was attributed to building and maintaining a trail network, with a de minimus amount attributed to nature education
    - no disclosure of salaries for officers (executive director is not an officer?)
    Myself and others have also found it troubling that it is technically set up as a 501c3 non-profit charitable organization yet has a very light history of actual "giving" and clearly has been growing its cash hoard for a number of years to the point of sitting on at least $1.4M as of the last filing and I wouldn't be surprised to see that number hit $2.0M with the upcoming filing.

    Add to that they have publically confirmed they are in negotiations (read as a signed P&S) on a $1M property which primarily will serve as a glorified club house as no parking or ticket sales etc. will be done at the location. Hell, the property is really a big ass family colonial that has been there for years.

    Sure it has 250acres, a large chunk of which is open fields the Bill Magil gravel road up to Heaven's Bench resides on. The portion of that property not in fields holds some of what is left for Darling Hill trails but would still be "land-locked" by the river to river closures of the 3 primary land owners.

    Just a sad mess.
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    “Seize this time and make that change,” Long said. “We really want to continue to have Vermont be a leader in the nation for outdoor recreation that shows this balance between stewardship and supporting our rural economies.”

    Lol. Who's the "We" in this statement? The officers of the KTA with their undisclosed salaries? the 90% of users who don't live here? From what River's saying, it's not the residents of EBurke.

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    See page 3 of Schedule A in the 2018 990 - indicates receipts from trail passes and merchandise sales decreased from $794k in fiscal year 2017 (year begins Nov 2016) to $627k in fiscal year 2018. But it is confusing how those amounts reconcile to the primary form 990's.

    Nothing unusual about not for profits having cash in the bank. $1M isn't a whole lot these days. Doesn't seem egregious, but agree there could be a better use for those funds than investing in Darling Hill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCbos View Post
    See page 3 of Schedule A in the 2018 990 - indicates receipts from trail passes and merchandise sales decreased from $794k in fiscal year 2017 (year begins Nov 2016) to $627k in fiscal year 2018. But it is confusing how those amounts reconcile to the primary form 990's.

    Nothing unusual about not for profits having cash in the bank. $1M isn't a whole lot these days. Doesn't seem egregious, but agree there could be a better use for those funds than investing in Darling Hill.
    Never an audit, review or compilation by an independent accountant. That is also highly irregular for a 501c3 of this size. Most of them are on an every 2, or every 3 year schedule.

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    Does this mean I can ride my 2.8769 inch tires on snow trails now?

    To the incredulously self righteous fat biker posting earlier, get bent.

    People have been hiking/walking/skiing/snowshoeing on THEIR/TOWN land long before you hosers bought your bikes and started dragging sleds through town parcels.

    Go figure, this fatbike horsemanure was the final straw

    I've been wanting to say that a long time. I feel better

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    On a side note anyone see the KTA new job posting? Almost reads like a "this is what we haven't been doing well for 25 years and want to look like we are trying to clean up our act".....

    https://www.kingdomtrails.org/we-are-hiring

    But what do I know......I'm just a recovering Finance guy that works in a large corporation filled with smart people (I keep a low profile lol)
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    Quote Originally Posted by 802spokestoke View Post
    Does this mean I can ride my 2.8769 inch tires on snow trails now?

    To the incredulously self righteous fat biker posting earlier, get bent.

    People have been hiking/walking/skiing/snowshoeing on THEIR/TOWN land long before you hosers bought your bikes and started dragging sleds through town parcels.

    Go figure, this fatbike horsemanure was the final straw

    I've been wanting to say that a long time. I feel better
    I rode my fat bike on some multi use trails with some post holing and other trail user tracks (snow show marks, ski ruts, etc.) this weekend and I rather enjoyed it. It felt like mountain biking. Flat, groomed, wide fat trails seems to be the norm and its a little dull after awhile. Throw in some chopped up snow, bumps and ruts and it almost feels like a techy dirt trail.

    ....and I agree how absurd it is that fat bikers have any entitlement when it comes to winter trail use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    I rode my fat bike on some multi use trails with some post holing and other trail user tracks (snow show marks, ski ruts, etc.) this weekend and I rather enjoyed it. It felt like mountain biking. Flat, groomed, wide fat trails seems to be the norm and its a little dull after awhile. Throw in some chopped up snow, bumps and ruts and it almost feels like a techy dirt trail.

    ....and I agree how absurd it is that fat bikers have any entitlement when it comes to winter trail use.
    While I haven't really been in on this piece of this discussion I figured I would chime in. I think this also goes to the fact, at least with KT, that the trails have never been considered "multi-user" by bikers for years as KTA had no open dialog etc. about anything but bike trails. So while douchy as heck to crap on other user groups for ruining the snow sidewalks (vs. dirt sidewalks) I get the impression riders assume the KT trails are MTB/Fattie only on singletrack.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    You sound like a douche.
    I was going to wait till the end to actually say this, myself. Not the douche part, mind you....

    Feeling irritated right now, as I just propagated this myth with a customer the other day. This is far worse.

    My point was going to be the same as figofspee.

    Were this the case, and KTA were functioning smartly?

    Simple answer.

    "Hey landowner, thanks so much for all you give us, we really, truly appreciate it. We pay to groom these trails for fat bikes etc. Post holing occurs when you walk on packed snow without skis or snowshoes, and is not only considered poor behavior in the outdoor community, it's also dangerous to animals, and humans should they get a leg stuck at an inopportune moment. We understand it's your land, of course, but if you could simply make your own trails in the woods if you like, or if you're on the ones we groom, please use this nice pair of snowshoes we bought for you and your family in thanks for all you do."

    They got $1.4 million. Spending (I dunno) $2, maybe 3K on snow shoes to build good will and educate land owners to prevent this conflict, is a hell of a lot cheaper and easier than the shit show they have now.

    So unless there's some unspoken man card bullshit going on, where walking in deep snow with just boots proves how cool you are? Since way before modern society, man has used snow shoes of various design, to better get around in the snow, not sure where all your angst about the idea comes from, it's rock solid.

    The Adirondacks (right next door to you) require snow shoe or ski use in the winter time on all trails. Not rocket science why, either.

    So yeah, that guy might have sounded douchey to you (though as an outdoorsman yourself, I'm baffled as to why, his points are perfectly in line with any winter hiking trail network regulations) he had a really solid point that I'd been repeating in my head as I read all of this....
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    ...candidate also must walk on water as directed by ED.
    Ability to turn water into Heady Topper a plus.

    That might be the longest job description I've ever read...

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    Quote Originally Posted by GraniteRash View Post
    ...candidate also must walk on water as directed by ED.
    Ability to turn water into Heady Topper a plus.

    That might be the longest job description I've ever read...
    Seriously. I know. I hire people on a regular basis and this reads more like a documentation of what they are prepared to admit they haven't done for the past 25 years. As a number of people and groups are kinda closing in on their financial history this feels like a classic effort to highlight and admit to some issues in hope of causing enough noise and distraction that people don't dig below the lack of financial polices and procedures etc. and get close to the real dirt.

    Fall on the sword, admit to cheating "that one time" and hope that distraction is enough to keep people from digging deeper.

    One comment on the "at the direction of the ED"......I wouldn't be too sure the ED is actually calling the shots on many things. Also, she was brought in after many of the foundational issues with KTA were well entrenched from the previous leadership. Anyone still in KTA from that period or on the board at the time have some explaining to do.
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    all I know is.... this thread and others about KTA on mtbr

    a) I won't stop following them

    b) they bum me out greatly
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    all I know is.... this thread and others about KTA on mtbr

    a) I won't stop following them

    b) they bum me out greatly
    Rubbernecking this gruesome car crash as well. My sex life has suffered, so please make it stop.

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    I think we can all agree that post-holing is a mental disorder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldIcehouse View Post
    Read it. "Meh" 80% fluff piece and 15% laying out their agenda to spend over a million $ on 3 properties that still will cause Darling Hill Landowners angst. 5% taking accountability for "not listening to the community"......more succinctly 25 years of strong arming the community, splitting the town into "with us vs. against us", loading the board with friends of the cause. Playing fast and loose with financials, promoting certain businesses vs. the entire crop of local establishments regardless of who pays for advertising etc.

    While I applaud her desire to build from this and move forward until they clean house on the leftovers on the board and KTA from previous "leadership" that allowed the decades of issues to build and be covered up.....there will still be a total lack of trust with the community and now even many riders that don't want to patronize a shady organization.

    Listen, I don't harbor any ill will per se, especially against people like CJ as I truly believe he just focuses on the trails and running his crew etc. BUT anyone that has been close to the administration, "marketing", finances or strategy over the past 5+ years is serious baggage.

    The people that lead the organization into this mess cannot be the people to lead it out. On principle alone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    Read it. "Meh" 80% fluff piece and 15% laying out their agenda to spend over a million $ on 3 properties that still will cause Darling Hill Landowners angst. 5% taking accountability for "not listening to the community"......more succinctly 25 years of strong arming the community, splitting the town into "with us vs. against us", loading the board with friends of the cause. Playing fast and loose with financials, promoting certain businesses vs. the entire crop of local establishments regardless of who pays for advertising etc.

    While I applaud her desire to build from this and move forward until they clean house on the leftovers on the board and KTA from previous "leadership" that allowed the decades of issues to build and be covered up.....there will still be a total lack of trust with the community and now even many riders that don't want to patronize a shady organization.

    Listen, I don't harbor any ill will per se, especially against people like CJ as I truly believe he just focuses on the trails and running his crew etc. BUT anyone that has been close to the administration, "marketing", finances or strategy over the past 5+ years is serious baggage.

    The people that lead the organization into this mess cannot be the people to lead it out. On principle alone.
    I respect that you have more detailed knowledge of the situation, but I think the person interviewed sounds like she's got a good head on her shoulders. She's also only been on the KTA board for 2 years so I wouldn't hold her accountable for problems that have existed since long before she worked there.

    She is at least well spoken and seems to have good intensions. For the most part I like her response and view of the situation.

    I agree they need to purge the cancer, I just don't know who that is? My impression is that it's the people at the top, and it sounds like it's not one individual but more likely a few people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    I respect that you have more detailed knowledge of the situation, but I think the person interviewed sounds like she's got a good head on her shoulders. She's also only been on the KTA board for 2 years so I wouldn't hold her accountable for problems that have existed since long before she worked there.

    She is at least well spoken and seems to have good intensions. For the most part I like her response and view of the situation.

    I agree they need to purge the cancer, I just don't know who that is? My impression is that it's the people at the top, and it sounds like it's not one individual but more likely a few people.
    For clarification, Abby is the Executive Director, she works for the Board,not on it.

    I haven't and will not pass judgement on someone's intellect as I don't walk in their shoes (standard life rule for me). I will say, I applaud her much more recent efforts BUT she also was provided plenty of feedback, suggestions, even handed direct actionable information and sat on it. So while I agree with you she is certainly not to be blamed for the issues she inherited, she is accountable for what she has or has not done since she has been in charge. I think most people can agree on that.

    Let's not forget, she was driving the bus when KTA allowed the community and public outrage to be shouldered 100% by the biking community for like 6 weeks vs. the reality of their accountability from enabling their guests to overrun the community.

    The next few months will be interesting.
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    River19, it's hard to take your assertions any more seriously than the rest of the speculation on the various MTBR threads, given the lack of specifics. "Trust me, more is coming" is empty chatter. If you have specific insight or inside info, but cannot share....than probably best to keep to thyself b/c insinuations just perpetuate further baseless speculation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCbos View Post
    River19, it's hard to take your assertions any more seriously than the rest of the speculation on the various MTBR threads, given the lack of specifics. "Trust me, more is coming" is empty chatter. If you have specific insight or inside info, but cannot share....than probably best to keep to thyself b/c insinuations just perpetuate further baseless speculation.
    Fair point.

    Unfortunately I do know more, I know enough specifics which is why I have taken the position I have. That being said, it isn't my place to out people in this space and I'll let the proper channels work their process.

    It is important to me that people question the fluff pieces, the marketing spins and hold the organization accountable as they never have been held accountable before and here we are.

    That being said, to date several of the things I mentioned have come out and fallen into place and proven to be true such as the 4th landowner pulling out, KTA having entered into 3 P&S deals on land on Darling Hill right at the epicenter of landowner angst. The financial inconsistencies in the organization (see the 990s coupled with their latest job position description listing out skills the organization lacks), the entire history of KTA knowing full well what the community issues were but doing nothing .....which they finally admitted to the bulk of that via their open letter.

    Listen I get the internet speculation angle and how my posts could be perceived as just another internet cowboy stirring the pot. I'll let the accuracy of my posts stand on their own merit as things come out or happen.

    I'll sit back and watch the next 12-18 months run their course and ideally we end up in a better place overall......
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    it isn't my place to out people in this space and I'll let the proper channels work their process.

    It is important to me that people question the fluff pieces, the marketing spins and hold the organization accountable as they never have been held accountable before and here we are.
    Spot on.
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    The Victory Act 250 appeal came back with the same result. John McGill needs an act 250 permit to operate.

    With the KTA review happening, it will be interesting to see if the same district manager comes to the same conclusion at the KTA. It would be difficult for her to explain how the KTA would not require permitting considering all the same variables in play.

    Limits on visitors is the only meaningful conversation.

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    Gee. It's so shocking Abby Long and the KTA were not available for comment. Think about what half that money could do for the community directly. Instead they'll use their profits to purchase as estate, which will ensure more tourist visits, which will in turn "help our community grow" in some ambiguous way. 1 mill in tourism revenue, the KTA poised to return the investment directly into the community.....buys million dollar estate for the benefit of affluent visitors instead. Fail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Gee. It's so shocking Abby Long and the KTA were not available for comment. Think about what half that money could do for the community directly. Instead they'll use their profits to purchase as estate, which will ensure more tourist visits, which will in turn "help our community grow" in some ambiguous way. 1 mill in tourism revenue, the KTA poised to return the investment directly into the community.....buys million dollar estate for the benefit of affluent visitors instead. Fail.
    The whole KT nonsense now shamelessly wreaks of greed and not giving a damn about the community. More land, more trails and more crowds - I'm sure locals will be thrilled.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    The whole KT nonsense now shamelessly wreaks of greed and not giving a damn about the community. More land, more trails and more crowds - I'm sure locals will be thrilled.
    Mountain biking nonprofit purchases land that features terrain that includes fabulous existing mountain biking trails and will accommodate more trails in the center of a mountain biking mecca and ... mountain bikers complain? Stunning stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    The whole KT nonsense now shamelessly wreaks of greed and not giving a damn about the community.
    No argument.

    More land, more trails and more crowds - I'm sure locals will be thrilled.
    Well, there is an economic impact to the local community so the local pizza joint, local motel, and local brewery will be happy with the increased traffic and cash flow. But the local residents that don't rely on tourism dollars to make their living will most likely not be as happy. Depends on your perspective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JT1 View Post
    Mountain biking nonprofit purchases land that features terrain that includes fabulous existing mountain biking trails and will accommodate more trails in the center of a mountain biking mecca and ... mountain bikers complain? Stunning stuff.
    I'm with you. KTA needs to hit this from multiple fronts. Clearly they need to focus on rider education / etiquette, overcrowding, parking, and biker-local relations -- but they also need to address the fact that they are overly reliant on "borrowing" land from private landowners (who are not well incentivized by VT law) for the persistence of the trails. As we have recently seen - that is a precarious position to be in and can be a row of dominoes -- regardless of how well behaved people are. Anyone at any time could sell their property to someone who doesn't support biking. By all accounts, KTA is stepping up and taking a head's-up holistic approach. Tonight's workshop was great first step and the year-long plan that was outlined has the right elements, in my opinion.

    This is a very important trail network for many people. It will take efforts from multiple angles to solve the problems that exist. Buying prime property as they have just done is one element, spreading things out and putting trails on public land (e.g. Victory State Forest) is another, promoting awareness that visitors are just that (visitors) is another, figuring out parking etc, another.

    Last point -- think about what would happen if someone came in and bought the Quiros property who is anti-bike. Then you lose Heaven's Bench and any potential to have trails on D Hill at all. I can't think of a better owner for this prime property than the non-profit that is at the center of the recreational opportunity at hand. I am encouraged by this development.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radioface View Post
    I'm with you. KTA needs to hit this from multiple fronts. Clearly they need to focus on rider education / etiquette, overcrowding, parking, and biker-local relations -- but they also need to address the fact that they are overly reliant on "borrowing" land from private landowners (who are not well incentivized by VT law) for the persistence of the trails. As we have recently seen - that is a precarious position to be in and can be a row of dominoes -- regardless of how well behaved people are. Anyone at any time could sell their property to someone who doesn't support biking. By all accounts, KTA is stepping up and taking a head's-up holistic approach. Tonight's workshop was great first step and the year-long plan that was outlined has the right elements, in my opinion.

    This is a very important trail network for many people. It will take efforts from multiple angles to solve the problems that exist. Buying prime property as they have just done is one element, spreading things out and putting trails on public land (e.g. Victory State Forest) is another, promoting awareness that visitors are just that (visitors) is another, figuring out parking etc, another.

    Last point -- think about what would happen if someone came in and bought the Quiros property who is anti-bike. Then you lose Heaven's Bench and any potential to have trails on D Hill at all. I can't think of a better owner for this prime property than the non-profit that is at the center of the recreational opportunity at hand. I am encouraged by this development.
    Good points. I'm mixed on the $1M on that piece of land given some of the other challenges they are facing and will face. That being said, I agree with you point on it being much better than an anti-biker. I do know many in the community have approached KTA over the years to ask for support on basic community infrastructure or community support and were denied paltry sums despite plenty of cash in the bank at KTA. That is where my "mixed" feeling comes from.

    The workshop, was "OK". The people I talked to in the 2 hours I was there were still waiting for KTA to really address the issues with some level of a plan or actions. A few local business owners and myself chatted with Abby and a couple board members about various topics and unfortunately our group came back unimpressed.

    Abby was very quick to shoot down possible solutions and incorrectly stated their own KTA polices which was very odd.

    We were more impressed with at least one of the board members and where their head was at.

    We'll see. Whatever they do will take some time......so everyone needs to give them that time but they need to quickly outline a more detailed plan. That alone should buy them a bit of runway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    Good points. I'm mixed on the $1M on that piece of land given some of the other challenges they are facing and will face. That being said, I agree with you point on it being much better than an anti-biker.
    The land purchase IMHO is a good move and shows their willingness to save the trails. But do they really need that big ol house? Unless they want to turn it into their main hub to divert traffic and people from the village?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jozz View Post
    The land purchase IMHO is a good move and shows their willingness to save the trails. But do they really need that big ol house? Unless they want to turn it into their main hub to divert traffic and people from the village?
    They could always separate the house onto its own smaller parcel, then turn around and sell it to an interested outside party.....

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    Any talk of a limit on day passes or cars/vans? Any limits on what annual visits should be? If not it's all bullshit. Spread it around is not a solution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jozz View Post
    The land purchase IMHO is a good move and shows their willingness to save the trails. But do they really need that big ol house? Unless they want to turn it into their main hub to divert traffic and people from the village?
    The house could serve as the new visitors center. I wonder if the landowners on Darling Hill pulling out was a preemptive move if they felt the newly acquired property would move the bulk of the crowds/car traffic up the hill and into their literal front yards...rather than it being an "in town" problem. Kinda makes sense that KTA was willing to assist with East Darling Hill road improvements.

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    Thanks for attending River19. I'd be interested to know if there was any sort of comments period where the community had an opportunity to have their concerns/complaints heard? Or was the format strictly breakout sessions with general discussion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by k1creeker View Post
    The house could serve as the new visitors center. I wonder if the landowners on Darling Hill pulling out was a preemptive move if they felt the newly acquired property would move the bulk of the crowds/car traffic up the hill and into their literal front yards...rather than it being an "in town" problem. Kinda makes sense that KTA was willing to assist with East Darling Hill road improvements.
    Imagine if the quiet road you bought a house on became the access road to a tourist spot that saw 1/6th of the state's population drive up every weekend all summer/fall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k1creeker View Post
    The house could serve as the new visitors center. I wonder if the landowners on Darling Hill pulling out was a preemptive move if they felt the newly acquired property would move the bulk of the crowds/car traffic up the hill and into their literal front yards...rather than it being an "in town" problem. Kinda makes sense that KTA was willing to assist with East Darling Hill road improvements.
    New visitor center was my initial thought as well. But according to a statement from KTA yesterday there are restrictions on the property and they have no plans to open a winter or summer welcome center.

    River 19 would you be able to provide an example of an idea discussed and the 'shoot down' response. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    Good points. I'm mixed on the $1M on that piece of land given some of the other challenges they are facing and will face. That being said, I agree with you point on it being much better than an anti-biker. I do know many in the community have approached KTA over the years to ask for support on basic community infrastructure or community support and were denied paltry sums despite plenty of cash in the bank at KTA. That is where my "mixed" feeling comes from.

    The workshop, was "OK". ....
    I certainly hope that this will be motivation for the association to be more community-minded (and by which I mean Burke/Lyndon/Kirby/East Haven community, and not just bike community), and use some of their funds in the manner you've outlined. A well-structured mortgage on this Quiros property leaves plenty left to do those things, and much more. Based on the outline of the plan so far, there will be ample opportunity for people to voice proposals and suggestions for that. It's certainly an important part of the process.

    And thanks for the feedback on the Workshop. I wasn't there as my wife was traveling for work and I had 3 young kids solo but my 75 year old father (who still travels the country -- and Canada-- with his Mach429 Trail) went as my "proxy" (after a 10 mile fatbike ride). He spent 40 years in city planning and city administration and noted that this kind of "soft opening" to the process was pretty typical in his experience when they had municipal issues of this nature. Where there isn't much in terms of proposals or directive, but it's more information gathering and loose discussion, as a way to kick things off. He came away with a fairly positive feeling, but I sure can understand your grade of "OK" -- especially if ideas were shot down and policies were misstated. It may be that "OK" is "very good," at this point . . . ha

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmike93 View Post
    New visitor center was my initial thought as well. But according to a statement from KTA yesterday there are restrictions on the property and they have no plans to open a winter or summer welcome center.

    River 19 would you be able to provide an example of an idea discussed and the 'shoot down' response. Thanks.
    The meeting was odd.

    Initially when the meeting was announced everyone I spoke with (and I am talking ~30-50 people) interpreted it as an open forum, something would be presented, there would be a community discussion and some semblance of a plan and vision presented.

    The meeting was none of those things. It was a consultant driven self-guided feedback session where you placed stickers and comments on easels with potential "problems" like "Parking" and you would indicate if that was less important or more important to you.....and there were places to write in comments etc.

    Other than that it was 100-200 people talking among themselves with the Board members, Abby, Ide etc. available if you wanted to pull them aside, but really it was mostly them chatting with people friendly to the cause from what I observed over 2 hours. Typical small town stuff and not unexpected.

    We did spend a goodly amount of time chewing the ear off of a board member who was receptive to many ideas, but I got the impression the "old guard" board members were still calling the shots......and let's remember they were the ones that were driving the bus when it went off the cliff and years of crap came out. We pulled in Abby for discussion.

    Regarding the question about what solution she shot down and what policy etc. she completely whiffed on......if I post it would be easy for the parties in question to know exactly which business owners and I don't feel comfortable putting that in a public forum. If someone really would like to know, IM me I'll give you the gist.

    I'm at the point where it is clear KT will do what KT wants to do. They will make some changes, some for the good and some most likely cringe-worthy. They listen to who they want and largely have taken direction from Bikers and associated business owners, the larger community has been left out and it will be interesting if they are included in any meaningful way going forward. In the meantime....we wait and watch and it is what it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Any talk of a limit on day passes or cars/vans? Any limits on what annual visits should be? If not it's all bullshit. Spread it around is not a solution.
    By "spread it around," do you mean putting more trails and parking in new remote or satellite locations? Why wouldn't that help? Because people will just flock to E Burke town center by the Tiki Bar before or after their ride regardless? If it's not done as part of a multi-pronged approach with thoughtful co-location, I certainly agree with you. But I think spreading it around, if done as one facet of a larger plan that involves rider education, community engagement, civic contribution, and infrastructure improvement, could really help.

    This may just be a pipe dream, but I am imagining one new parking area on Victory Road away from E Burke and away from E Haven, with a handful of new trails up into public land (hence no private landowner reliance) in Victory Town Forest on the slopes of East Haven Mountain and Little Roundtop. Potential for great vert, with varied terrain at all skill levels. And those trails would connect into Moose Haven Trails, and to the mountain near Wilder Way etc. (And then maybe over to Victory Hill sector!?) Put a little Tiki Bar there with a fire pit and Edward and Susan on tap and I think you'll pull plenty of people away from E Burke town. Especially given that visitors from the north (of which there are many) wouldn't have to drive through E Burke -- they would come straight down Rt 5 from Barton.

    Here's 150 acres for sale with VAST trails across it which leads right to Vicotry State Forest https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/0...88984343_zpid/

    And another one directly across Victory Road with access to North Pasture Trail https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/0...88984343_zpid/

    Looks like a great spot to spread it out to.

    And/or maybe you do the same thing south of East Burke toward Lyndonville (by the lumber/log yard on the river?), and so not everyone that comes in from the south hits E Burke town center?

    I just know what it has been like to hike Mt Katahdin over the last couple of decades. Is that kind of cap what we really want? I remember having to wake up at 4am in order to get through the gate on time, and then missing out because we were 2 cars too late and then we were screwed. Now Katahdin has a reservation system but it basically means you have to plan months in advance in order to go for a hike.

    Katahdin is a little different, in that there is one peak with basically 2 ways up, one of which (the Knife Edge) is 8 feet wide ridge with 1000 foot drop on either side. You cant spread it around there. Seems to me that at KT -- a place that is globally known and entrenched in the mountain biking universe, and has a great vibe (albeit with some issues), phenomenal terrain and dirt, great trail builders -- spreading it around is one aspect of a multi-pronged approach that could really help.

  123. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Imagine if the quiet road you bought a house on became the access road to a tourist spot that saw 1/6th of the state's population drive up every weekend all summer/fall.
    This. Burke is in the middle of nowhere. I know someone who lives out there off-grid as much as possible and only considered the wintertime ski area impact, summers largely quiet.. now it's gone beyond that.

    who wants bro-traffic all day every day all summer in what was a once quiet spot in VT ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jozz View Post
    The land purchase IMHO is a good move and shows their willingness to save the trails. But do they really need that big ol house? Unless they want to turn it into their main hub to divert traffic and people from the village?
    From a biker point of view I agree.

    From a community relations standpoint and the point of view of the non-riding, non-directly benefiting business owner community member that has seen little to no upside and only downside from KTA the past several years, I know their perspective is different which is why I offer that contrarian opinion.

    There is a legit question out there that no one talks about. Instead of "more, more, more, bigger, 'More Rad'" every year......would it make more sense long term from a sustainability perspective to have a slightly smaller trail system, say 50-60 miles but have damn near everyone in the community at large feel good about the arrangement and the people in charge and where the money is going? Something where the community had tangible, direct benefit that impacts the whole community and not just riders or rider friendly businesses. That is a sore spot right now when looking at how KTA has not significantly donated and in fact turned down potential charitable partnerships in search of their own agenda. It is an interesting perspective when we aren't staring out over handlebars but thinking about how we would feel as long term residents sitting in their quiet retirement home staring at the mountain.

    Again, I'll sit back and wait like everyone else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Imagine if the quiet road you bought a house on became the access road to a tourist spot that saw 1/6th of the state's population drive up every weekend all summer/fall.
    I did, which led to my summation. But thanks for reiterating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    This. Burke is in the middle of nowhere. I know someone who lives out there off-grid as much as possible and only considered the wintertime ski area impact, summers largely quiet.. now it's gone beyond that.

    who wants bro-traffic all day every day all summer in what was a once quiet spot in VT ?
    I mean, I get it, but also Darling Hill isn't exactly "typical" or "quiet" VT and never has been:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlin...toric_District

    Not to say there isn't a world of difference between Darling Hill and Burke/Lyndonville itself, but let's just keep things in perspective. A LOT of people who move to VT for the quiet, rural life move to areas that they're familiar with for the same reasons people continue to increasingly visit: education, tourism, outdoor recreation. If you like where you live and have the means to enjoy it in a discretionary sense, why wouldn't you expect progressively more people to do the same? There are also lots of places even within VT to move that would love your tax dollars and don't have this issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jozz View Post
    But do they really need that big ol house? Unless they want to turn it into their main hub to divert traffic and people from the village?
    Vermont is looking to decriminalize prostitution. KT now owns a big ol' multi-bedroom house with tons of dudes creeping around. I've got some ideas about what they could do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott O View Post
    Vermont is looking to decriminalize prostitution. KT now owns a big ol' multi-bedroom house with tons of dudes creeping around. I've got some ideas about what they could do.
    And that there is the type of vision we are lacking lol...... I kid I kid....

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    I'm gonna copy and paste this here before we see any attempts to revise history or shift reality. From the KTA website..."KTA Membership
    As a 501(c)3 nonprofit organization, KTA is sustained through our incredible membership. Last year 1,363 families and 1,956 individuals became Annual Members, supporting our work of providing recreation and education opportunities to our community and visitors.

    KTA Membership not only grants you access to the entire Kingdom Trails network, but also advances the health of our community, surrounding environment, and regional economy.

    KTA seeks to keep our membership rates affordable for accessibility, while ensuring a quality experience that is well maintained, marked, and mapped. In 2018 we were proud to announce our first ever NEK Local Discount! Residents of the Northeast Kingdom's Caledonia, Essex, and Orleans Counties receive 33% off a Family or Individual Annual Membership.

    An Annual KTA Membership grants access to the Kingdom Trail network for both the summer & winter season. If purchased in the winter season, the Membership is valid through the end of the following summer season. If purchased during the summer season, the Membership is valid through the end of the following winter season. A one day KTA Membership grants access to the Kingdom Trail network for the day purchased. Become a Member:
    Adult (16 to 69 years old)
    Day – $15
    Annual – $75
    NEK Annual - $50

    Youth (8 to 15 years old)
    Day – $7
    Annual – $75
    NEK Annual - $50

    Family (relatives living in same household)
    Annual – $150
    NEK Annual - $100 "

    It's understood that KTA is pay-to-play by pretty much everyone I assume.

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    DaveVT - You are right. States so right on their website......

    "Please purchase a one day or year round Kingdom Trail Association member to use the trails." (yes the grammar issue is theirs not mine)
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    It will indeed be interesting to see how this all plays out with KT.

    I agreed that continuing to go bigger and radder with trail expansion will likely not improve relationships with the portion of the community that doesn't benefit from biker revenues IF that expansion isn't done in a thoughtful way.

    The purchase of the land/house on Darling Hill is an important move for KT. Although the property abuts the now closed parcels, it is a very important area to KT and arguably the signature piece of property on the visual end. Add to that, the Wildflower Inn is also on the market which may play a big roll in KT trying to ensure they don't lose more of Darling Hill.
    IMHO, expanding the trails south toward Lyndon wouldn't be a terrible idea. Lyndon already has plans for a outdoor recreation area at the old town municipal sheds (at the curved bridge over the river just north of the Rt 5-114 intersection). Unfortunately I haven't been able to find a rendering of the plan online.

    https://www.caledonianrecord.com/new...a5835e692.html

    As you can see KT (and Abby Long) is in support of the project. It would be interesting to see if they would also be willing to back the development of the park financially as well. Also a new RV campground is also opening just up Route 5 (less than a half mile from the planned park through the woods/old gravel pits).
    IF all that could be tied into the trails on the south end of Darling Hill, it would take some of the sting out of losing the middle section of the hill. While moving some of the car traffic out of E Burke and off Darling Hill.

    As a local who doesn't benefit directly from mountain bikers, it is good to see the stimulation it has had on the local economy. Hopefully the leadership of KT can turn the ship back on course and get back to the community roots vs making it all about the $$$$. After the whole Quiros disaster, this whole fiasco with KT is making me sad. It's almost like KT figured that the Quiros debacle was sooo bad and that locals hated the situation so much that no one would notice that they themselves were also creating a storm of their own.

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    My last paragraph kind of sound like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth...
    To clarify, I feel the economic stimulation has been good for the most part. However, the last few years have seen the push to make it bigger get out of control to the point where we are now having to question KT's motivations and financial records.

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    Quote Originally Posted by from_the_nek View Post
    My last paragraph kind of sound like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth...
    To clarify, I feel the economic stimulation has been good for the most part. However, the last few years have seen the push to make it bigger get out of control to the point where we are now having to question KT's motivations and financial records.
    I 100% understand where you are coming from as I feel the same way. Again, it is all about finding the balance. They blew through that balance in the area a few years back and doubled down on it...... they self-congratulated and fawned over their amazing marketing outcome of 50% increase in ridership from 2016..... No one thought the place needed or could handle another 500 riders for every 1000 riders in 2016......literally no one.

    But they did lock up the grassy trail to the bench for taking pics of the area.....and they got a clubhouse. So there is that i guess......
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    I 100% understand where you are coming from as I feel the same way. Again, it is all about finding the balance. They blew through that balance in the area a few years back and doubled down on it...... they self-congratulated and fawned over their amazing marketing outcome of 50% increase in ridership from 2016..... No one thought the place needed or could handle another 500 riders for every 1000 riders in 2016......literally no one.
    .
    fully agree. maybe they should use some of their 2020 marketing budget to advertise for Sentiers du Moulin, Vallee bras du Nord, and Mt Saint Anne. I rode up there at the beginning of October and it was absolutely phenomenal. The border patrol agent on the way back into the states was super confused why I went to QC to mountain bike -- "isnt all the good mountain biking in Burke?"

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    That's the most logical approach, IMHO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radioface View Post
    fully agree. maybe they should use some of their 2020 marketing budget to advertise for Sentiers du Moulin, Vallee bras du Nord, and Mt Saint Anne. I rode up there at the beginning of October and it was absolutely phenomenal. The border patrol agent on the way back into the states was super confused why I went to QC to mountain bike -- "isnt all the good mountain biking in Burke?"
    Don't forget to hit Empire 47 when in Quebec. They got a good thing going up there. KTA has some fun stuff but the trails up in Quebec are the real deal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LIV2RYD View Post
    Don't forget to hit Empire 47 when in Quebec. They got a good thing going up there. KTA has some fun stuff but the trails up in Quebec are the real deal.
    Don't forget East Hereford, QC which is about an hour from Burke. Also, a solid and improving trail system. After riding the QC systems I'm amazed by all the Canadians that travel all that way to Burke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak View Post
    Don't forget East Hereford, QC which is about an hour from Burke. Also, a solid and improving trail system. After riding the QC systems I'm amazed by all the Canadians that travel all that way to Burke.
    The new breed of Qc riders are heading to Burke. Most seasoned riders now stay in Qc or hunt for the rugged east coast trails.

    Just to add to the list, Bromont.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak View Post
    Don't forget East Hereford, QC which is about an hour from Burke. Also, a solid and improving trail system. After riding the QC systems I'm amazed by all the Canadians that travel all that way to Burke.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jozz View Post
    The new breed of Qc riders are heading to Burke. Most seasoned riders now stay in Qc or hunt for the rugged east coast trails.

    Just to add to the list, Bromont.
    This dynamic has always left me wondering "why?" as well.

    That isn't a knock on the trails at KT necessarily, they are what they are and everyone has beaten that horse to death over the years. But, given the amazing trail systems up there I just wouldn't see myself packing all my crap up and heading across the border etc. given the riding that is available up there. Then again, given their propensity to travel in large groups etc. maybe those systems are jammed solid as well.....Woody, is that what you saw when you were up there? The feedback I heard was that they weren't that crowded in QC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    This dynamic has always left me wondering "why?" as well.

    That isn't a knock on the trails at KT necessarily, they are what they are and everyone has beaten that horse to death over the years. But, given the amazing trail systems up there I just wouldn't see myself packing all my crap up and heading across the border etc. given the riding that is available up there. Then again, given their propensity to travel in large groups etc. maybe those systems are jammed solid as well.....Woody, is that what you saw when you were up there? The feedback I heard was that they weren't that crowded in QC.
    Pretty much the same dynamic on the most popular systems like VBN and SDM. The main difference is that the level of riding is more spread out. So the herd gets thinned as you progress deeper in the networks.

    Just for example, at SDM, most advance DH trails are at the level of upper J-Bar and much beyond. So you could imagine it's usually not too crowded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    Anyone surprised who asked?!

    Frankly, permitting is permitting, suck it up. Its the cost of doing business, especially when the goal is attracting visitors and economic gain. Why in the world riders think they are not bound by the rules of the land is beyond me, likely because no one wants to do the hard work. You do not get an exemption because you think you're special.

    Also, a cursory look at Act 250 makes it sound like the classic land use regulation that is trying to keep VT the way VTers want it to be. So yes, it probably 100% applies to trails, especially those bringing in 1000s of riders.
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    damn straight. get the permits. play ball like everyone else has to.
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    Certainly an interesting conundrum isn't it?

    Some random thoughts IMHO:

    Act 250 has been around since 1970 or so.....it isn't like it is new, or an unknown commodity to navigate.

    KTA has known about this review for a while so let's not pretend this was sprung on them recently. They knew it was a matter of time once VH hit their iceberg last year.

    There is currently some active talk in Monty about possibly adjusting 250 for recreational trail networks or whatever umbrella they put it under to possibly streamline things or possibly provide an exemption etc. It might be prudent for the state to pause active reviews until whatever possible legislation is settled so the updated regulations could be applied to this review.

    I don't think anyone believes the state will apply the fines associated with operating without an Act 250 permit......rough math puts that well into 8 figures.....from what I recall from 10+ years ago it was like $10K per day fine.....

    While it is easy to throw shade at the requester of said review, I think it is an even more interesting question as to how did KTA make it 25+ years without dealing with Act 250?
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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    Well then.

    What do you have to say here DaveVT?
    Sure did decide to call down the thunder.

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    River, you seem very informed and articulate regarding KT so perhaps I'm missing something in regards to your question about KT and 25+ years of Act 250. My understanding from reading the Act 250 ruling against VH was that getting designated as being part of the Vermont Trails System offered protections from Act 250 since that is deemed as being for public use versus purely commercial. It sounds like KTA has received that designation and is part of VTS, again based on reading the VH Act 250 review--that's why so much of the VH Act 250 ruling is spent on whether or not VH was technically part of the KT network or not, as Victory Hill would then have been afforded the same protections. I'm guessing that is why they hadn't had to deal with Act 250. From page 13:

    "It remains possible that some of the VHT trails created in the earlier years of VHT trail system development, e.g. prior to 2015, could qualify as “state or municipal purpose” if it is sufficiently demonstrated that these trails were in fact part of the VTS at the time construction occurred (e.g. via inclusion in the KTA system which is itself part of the VTS), and if it is demonstrated that the sum total of “project disturbance area” was below 10 acres. "

    Do you have a different read on that? Trying to understand this.

    Never been to KT, don't know the owners of KT, and have no dog in this fight (I'm here more for the forum on gravel riding and general VT rides, not MTB). If the KT owners/landowners have ignored or abused their community as many here allege for, frankly, any reason then that chicken will come home to roost and likely has already with landowners pulling out. But seeing members of the VT biking community trying to weaponize Act 250 and sic the State on another VT biking group they disagree with...that is a very scary precedent to set for all of us trying to enjoy life on two wheels in VT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    This dynamic has always left me wondering "why?" as well.

    That isn't a knock on the trails at KT necessarily, they are what they are and everyone has beaten that horse to death over the years. But, given the amazing trail systems up there I just wouldn't see myself packing all my crap up and heading across the border etc. given the riding that is available up there. Then again, given their propensity to travel in large groups etc. maybe those systems are jammed solid as well.....Woody, is that what you saw when you were up there? The feedback I heard was that they weren't that crowded in QC.
    I've been up to the 4 QC spots a bunch of times. E. Hereford has always been super empty. Never even seen another biker while I was there. Very surprising since it's definitely biking specific trails. I've only been to E47 once. It was very uncrowded. The people we me there were super friendly. Almost like they were looking for people to come there. They said it was a shit-show in fatbike season. SDM always seems to have a lot of people in the parking lot and we certainly see riders on the trails, but the trails we hit are generally the tougher ones so we've never had a problem with people getting in the way. Both VBD sectors were super busy in the parking lots. Definitely more of a KT type scene. Lot of families and newbies. The trails themselves weren't that busy, especially the tougher ones. The Shannahan Sector lot is super remote and nowhere close to houses, so nobody should care. The other lot @ Hotel Roquemont is pretty urban, so not a problem either. Both lots have some tailgating but everyone eventually goes home. Definitely a different culture than KT.
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    Inclusion into the VTS does not exempt a trail system from act 250 review. It changes the requirements. Involved land, in specific, have to be at least 10 acres, even in a town without zoning, like Victory. I would matter to VHT because they are probably under the 10 acres of involved lands, given the 3 foot wide description of the trails in the JO. It's easy math to multiply 100 miles x 5000 feet per mile, x 3 feet. You get 40 about acres...just for trail.

    Act 250 is a law. It's exists to protect Vt against development externalizing very real negative impacts to communities and the environment as part of the economic analysis. It is meant to force any commercial entity on private land to account for things like traffic pattern shifts, air pollution, among other things. the Natural Resource Board is separate from the state. Reviews are triggered by individuals. It's a major flaw in the system from what I can tell.

    The review of act 250 in Montpelier resulted in a centralization of the power of the NRB. The local directors are now "Window Dressing" and all reviews and decisions will come from a group of coordinators that work the entire state. Basically, a loss of local control, so that Montpelier can have more influence over how act 250 is applied.

    This is likely the death of act 250 as we know it. I'm not weaponizing state law anymore than tourism has been weaponized against what I feel are important quality of life resources that I enjoy as part of my hand-to-mouth existence in Vt over the last 21 years. If KTA, or RASTA, or whom ever want to pimp their local, that's fine. My issues is that those marketers and cheer leaders have made so much noise, the State of Vermont has bought in. Not only that, through grant programs (the state can't afford) the Executive is now promoting the great success of the KTA, and encouraging other communities to develop and exploit their local resources.

    My point has always been this. The gains of tourism and associated service industry jobs are grossly overstated, while the negative impacts on residents is given no value. If the State, through grants tethered to marketing, is going to encourage this development in all of our small communities with low-key trail systems, and outside spaces the locals value, then I'm gonna pull that lever, because that's why it there.

    My goal is for those in charge to have the conversation. Not just with act 250, but also current use (which is largely a scam as well). Vermont will not survive an ever increasing rate of tourism. Our answer to our DIRE situation as a state can't be more tourists from farther away taking over and ever increasing footprint within.

    The outcome will likely be a gutting of act 250, and local groups even within my own community will go full speed ahead in building out parking lots, advertising out back yards, ect. I have watched, in far more detail than most MTBers, what happens to places that suffer this fate. I've had the conversation with the locals here who are intoxicated on the idea that "Our" trail system could be a major economic driver for our town. I don't want my local to become a Perry Hill. I moved here because it's quiet. A lot of people moved to a lot of Vt towns for this reason. If this bring a conversation about the future of tourism jobs, and the endless growth of the industry in general within the state thne good. If it fails, at least 10 or 20 years from now, when everyone is bitching about traffic, litter ect I can say that I tried.

    As far as the Cancel Culture of Social Media, and folks who claim to "Know" me stating my motivations and passing judgement on me personally, it just shows you what those individuals really are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Womby View Post
    River, you seem very informed and articulate regarding KT so perhaps I'm missing something in regards to your question about KT and 25+ years of Act 250. My understanding from reading the Act 250 ruling against VH was that getting designated as being part of the Vermont Trails System offered protections from Act 250 since that is deemed as being for public use versus purely commercial. It sounds like KTA has received that designation and is part of VTS, again based on reading the VH Act 250 review--that's why so much of the VH Act 250 ruling is spent on whether or not VH was technically part of the KT network or not, as Victory Hill would then have been afforded the same protections. I'm guessing that is why they hadn't had to deal with Act 250. From page 13:

    "It remains possible that some of the VHT trails created in the earlier years of VHT trail system development, e.g. prior to 2015, could qualify as “state or municipal purpose” if it is sufficiently demonstrated that these trails were in fact part of the VTS at the time construction occurred (e.g. via inclusion in the KTA system which is itself part of the VTS), and if it is demonstrated that the sum total of “project disturbance area” was below 10 acres. "

    Do you have a different read on that? Trying to understand this.

    Never been to KT, don't know the owners of KT, and have no dog in this fight (I'm here more for the forum on gravel riding and general VT rides, not MTB). If the KT owners/landowners have ignored or abused their community as many here allege for, frankly, any reason then that chicken will come home to roost and likely has already with landowners pulling out. But seeing members of the VT biking community trying to weaponize Act 250 and sic the State on another VT biking group they disagree with...that is a very scary precedent to set for all of us trying to enjoy life on two wheels in VT.
    Regarding the VT Trails umbrella equaling an exemption from Act 250......I remember this line of thinking coming up during the whole Victory Hill issue last year. If in fact being under that umbrella provides an exemption from the Act 250 regulations then this should be a really quick review. That being said, given the fact that the review wasn't immediately dismissed suggests to me that "umbrella" of VT Trails isn't as black and white as some would like to believe or claim.

    If KTA has been operating under the assumption the VT trails piece exempted them from 250 I would certainly hope they have that in writing from the state. But again, if they had something along those lines that would be the trump card that would have been presented to the state and they wouldn't be under current review or at least the story and narrative would be vastly different. It also wouldn't be as "scary" as the ED was quoted as saying.

    It has been my experience that things aren't "scary" when you know you have your crap together on a subject and can strongly support your position. If you don't have documentation to support your position and being wrong could be a potential catastrophic blow to your organization well........I wish them luck. Over 25 years I would have done everything I could to stack the cards in my favor however......so we shall see how things turn out, it is Vermont after all and we have all seen the state bend rules etc.

    If they are found out of compliance with 250, all hope may not be lost as potentially restructuring the whole shebang could provide a future for the trails etc. But let's not put the cart before the horse on this one. Again, it is Vermont.....too big to fail may guide the result here.
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    Dave why did you delete the Northfield thread? Hiding something?

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    Certainly not standing by your words to delete your neighborhood thread from the site. Says a lot.

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    Thanks for the reply, River19. I didn't say the VTS was a full exemption, to be clear. You're right in that it isn't black and white.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skibikekayak View Post
    Dave why did you delete the Northfield thread? Hiding something?
    Quote Originally Posted by Letterkenny View Post
    Certainly not standing by your words to delete your neighborhood thread from the site. Says a lot.
    Replying with anonymity is even more respectable... Not.

    If you feel so strongly about it, Put you name and reputation on the line, then I'll respect your voice.

    I don't know DaveVT, but he's been here 15 years, you just showed up to talk shit anonymously.

    At least quote the original text, and give a reasonable response, and allow for a reply. Otherwise your words carry zero weight IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    Replying with anonymity is even more respectable... Not.

    If you feel so strongly about it, Put you name and reputation on the line, then I'll respect your voice.

    I don't know DaveVT, but he's been here 15 years, you just showed up to talk shit anonymously.

    At least quote the original text, and give a reasonable response, and allow for a reply. Otherwise your words carry zero weight IMO.
    All I asked was why did his four year old thread suddenly disappear? Seems odd that a thread he created dies a few days before he emails NRB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Womby View Post
    Thanks for the reply, River19. I didn't say the VTS was a full exemption, to be clear. You're right in that it isn't black and white.
    Womby, sorry, didn't mean to put words in your mouth, that was my own interpretation of what I recalled people felt of the VTS situation in the Victory thread........didn't meant to make it sound like it was a direct response etc. to you alone.

    I also agree with OneSpeed's take above......

    While I understand the emotion or frustration with triggering a 250 review, joining a forum just to throw shade is "meh", but they knew that when they did it. I'm not here to defend Dave per se as he is more than capable of defending himself if he feels he needs to. After being on this forum for 10+ years one thing we all know is Dave is fine having a take on things others may not agree with. I'm betting he doesn't really give a shit about the interweb chatter to be honest.
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    Just curious why the Northfield thread was deleted. There were some useful tidbits in there, like maps, trail flow, new v old trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skibikekayak View Post
    Just curious why the Northfield thread was deleted. There were some useful tidbits in there, like maps, trail flow, new v old trail.
    I'll bet a certain thread started deleted for fear for retribution. Gotta be careful when you purposefully screw over 100,000 riders out of spite.
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    http://www.northfield-vt.gov/text/Co...dship_Plan.pdf

    In 2011, the Town of Northfield granted Norwich University an easement for a small section of the Town Forest to be used as part of the university’s recreational trail system. That section extends into the Town Forest where the trail winds along the edge of its southern boundary and the southwest corner of the Cheney Field. The Norwich University trail system on Paine Mountain is subject to a state Act 250 permit (#5W1541). The section of the university trail system that extends into the Town Forest is also subject to this permit and is further described in the permit and its accompanying map. Any further trail development may require additional permits.

    The last sentence may account for the deleted thread and the radio silence from Dave. .

    I repeat:

    “Any further development may require additional permits.”

    What permits did Dave get for Northfield? What permits does he have from Norwich University? Did Norwich U get a permit for new trails cut by Dave an employee at the Shaw Center That he built into their system?

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    Quote Originally Posted by skibikekayak View Post
    http://www.northfield-vt.gov/text/Co...dship_Plan.pdf

    In 2011, the Town of Northfield granted Norwich University an easement for a small section of the Town Forest to be used as part of the university’s recreational trail system. That section extends into the Town Forest where the trail winds along the edge of its southern boundary and the southwest corner of the Cheney Field. The Norwich University trail system on Paine Mountain is subject to a state Act 250 permit (#5W1541). The section of the university trail system that extends into the Town Forest is also subject to this permit and is further described in the permit and its accompanying map. Any further trail development may require additional permits.

    The last sentence may account for the deleted thread and the radio silence from Dave. .

    I repeat:

    “Any further development may require additional permits.”

    What permits did Dave get for Northfield? What permits does he have from Norwich University? Did Norwich U get a permit for new trails cut by Dave an employee at the Shaw Center That he built into their system?

    Maybe you should file a request for an Act 250 review of "his" trails? What comes around goes around...

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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    Replying with anonymity is even more respectable... Not.

    If you feel so strongly about it, Put you name and reputation on the line, then I'll respect your voice.

    I don't know DaveVT, but he's been here 15 years, you just showed up to talk shit anonymously.

    At least quote the original text, and give a reasonable response, and allow for a reply. Otherwise your words carry zero weight IMO.
    Funny you mention his legacy, because you can go back to any deleted/locked thread and see how cun+y DaveVT has been for over a decade. Talk all you want about his longevity of trail building right after you see how long he has been dividing people in the sport. Here you go, enjoy the read!!

    https://forums.mtbr.com/vermont-new-...vt-361024.html

    You only need to scroll about half way down to see him turn from a "tourist" of the Northfield area to the person that
    -disrupted the locals
    -built trail for his own intention in mind only
    -used the trails to ride his dirtkbike

    Years later I see Dave bitch about ebikes, tourists, bikes with suspension, carbon emissions.

    So yea, this time Dave really fuc*ed some people over, and most of us here don't even ride KT. I just feel bad for everyone he comes in contact with.

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    Dave looking like a real NIMBY bout meow.

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    His updated view on bikes with motors

    https://forums.mtbr.com/vermont-new-...s-1055268.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by River19 View Post
    Womby, sorry, didn't mean to put words in your mouth, that was my own interpretation of what I recalled people felt of the VTS situation in the Victory thread........didn't meant to make it sound like it was a direct response etc. to you alone.
    No offense taken, merely clarifying. Ride on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mdc View Post
    Maybe you should file a request for an Act 250 review of "his" trails? What comes around goes around...
    Agencies are aware, and his actions Have not gone unnoticed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by momikey View Post
    Funny you mention his legacy, because you can go back to any deleted/locked thread and see how cun+y DaveVT has been for over a decade. Talk all you want about his longevity of trail building right after you see how long he has been dividing people in the sport. Here you go, enjoy the read!!

    https://forums.mtbr.com/vermont-new-...vt-361024.html

    You only need to scroll about half way down to see him turn from a "tourist" of the Northfield area to the person that
    -disrupted the locals
    -built trail for his own intention in mind only
    -used the trails to ride his dirtkbike

    Years later I see Dave bitch about ebikes, tourists, bikes with suspension, carbon emissions.

    So yea, this time Dave really fuc*ed some people over, and most of us here don't even ride KT. I just feel bad for everyone he comes in contact with.
    Dave's on his own FB page beating his chest about what a hero he is while also hoping to fight people in the woods.

    "Hey...look at that. All act 250 reviews are on hold until some review of the system is regard to trails can be done. In 3 minutes I accomplished what Vmba hasn't in 15 years. You re welcome Vermont mtb riders. Slate valley, victory hill ect. Hope a more balanced vision of use vs conservation can be found going forward and we don t see cultural and environmental protections stripped away."

    Dave doesn't ride KT. He just wants to be a big shot. He should stick to making sandwiches.

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    More cancel culture mentality

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    Quote Originally Posted by skibikekayak View Post
    Dave why did you delete the Northfield thread? Hiding something?
    Quote Originally Posted by momikey View Post
    Funny you mention his legacy, because you can go back to any deleted/locked thread and see how cun+y DaveVT has been for over a decade. Talk all you want about his longevity of trail building right after you see how long he has been dividing people in the sport. Here you go, enjoy the read!!

    https://forums.mtbr.com/vermont-new-...vt-361024.html

    You only need to scroll about half way down to see him turn from a "tourist" of the Northfield area to the person that
    -disrupted the locals
    -built trail for his own intention in mind only
    -used the trails to ride his dirtkbike

    Years later I see Dave bitch about ebikes, tourists, bikes with suspension, carbon emissions.

    So yea, this time Dave really fuc*ed some people over, and most of us here don't even ride KT. I just feel bad for everyone he comes in contact with.
    Thank you for sharing, exactly what I was looking for.

    I didn't mean to sound like I was taking his side, just when someone pops in to talk trash with no references or data to back it up, it comes across as sketchy.

    If there's important history that people should be aware of, share it.
    Rigid SS 29er
    SS 29+
    Fat Lefty
    SS cyclocross
    Full Sus 29er (Yuck)

    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  168. #168
    mtbr member
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    I feel like I accidentally stumbled into the AZ subforum...
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

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