NH Overall Trail Development...or lack thereof- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    NH Overall Trail Development...or lack thereof

    I will preface this post by saying 1) I don't live in New England anymore (but did for 25 years), 2) I haven't done a considerable amount of riding in NH and 3) I currently reside in the front range of CO where I am spoiled with singletrack.

    I plan to move back to New England in a couple of years and have been researching different areas of Southern NH to buy a home. Ideally, I would LOVE to be within proximity of multiple trail networks and have some great systems available within an hour or two drive. I understand the trail offerings in NH are supposedly good...but I can't help but think there are plentiful opportunities out there to become much better and much bigger.

    CO is certainly about as good as it gets in the country -- but I see no reason that NH, VT, and ME can't compete! Is it simply just more difficult to build these trail systems in the region? Are there laws prohibiting development due to private lands, nature preserves, etc.? Is there a lack of dedicated riders who are unwilling to dedicate their time to building and maintenance?

    I know there are multiple trail networks near Nashua, Manchester, Concord, etc...but why not more? And why aren't there double the amount of networks in the 'Whites? There is so much perfect terrain for trail development and a seemingly huge market of adventure enthusiasts who would utilize them! What gives?!

    Upon my return back to New England, nothing would make me happier than to see more trail development and a larger contingency of dedicated riders who are looking to make the region one of the best mountain bike locales in the country. I know that I will certainly be one of these people!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    I will preface this post by saying 1) I don't live in New England anymore (but did for 25 years), 2) I haven't done a considerable amount of riding in NH and 3) I currently reside in the front range of CO where I am spoiled with singletrack.

    I plan to move back to New England in a couple of years and have been researching different areas of Southern NH to buy a home. Ideally, I would LOVE to be within proximity of multiple trail networks and have some great systems available within an hour or two drive. I understand the trail offerings in NH are supposedly good...but I can't help but think there are plentiful opportunities out there to become much better and much bigger.

    CO is certainly about as good as it gets in the country -- but I see no reason that NH, VT, and ME can't compete! Is it simply just more difficult to build these trail systems in the region? Are there laws prohibiting development due to private lands, nature preserves, etc.? Is there a lack of dedicated riders who are unwilling to dedicate their time to building and maintenance?

    I know there are multiple trail networks near Nashua, Manchester, Concord, etc...but why not more? And why aren't there double the amount of networks in the 'Whites? There is so much perfect terrain for trail development and a seemingly huge market of adventure enthusiasts who would utilize them! What gives?!

    Upon my return back to New England, nothing would make me happier than to see more trail development and a larger contingency of dedicated riders who are looking to make the region one of the best mountain bike locales in the country. I know that I will certainly be one of these people!
    are you for real, guy?

    stay in coloRADo, guy. no good riding here.

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    It's New England, public land is hard to come by...

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    I live in Central NH and have easily 50-60 miles of singletrack within 20mins of my house some of which I can ride to and/or link together. Fast/flowy, rocky/rooty, vert, lift serv whatever I want. Start talking within 1-2hr drive and the opportunities for riding are staggering.

    Granted its not big, wide open, grand expanse stuff like CO but its damn good and there is a lot of it.

    If its not enough feel free to join NEMBA when you get here and grab a shovel and start building!

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    second, nothing to see here, just smoke and mirrors

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    Then another question for all: how is Bear Brook unanimously considered the best riding in NH? I have covered Bear Brook from tip to tail and all around. I really thought it was great - but THAT is the best?

    There are opportunities to have better riding!


    p.s. I realize my post may have been off base, and accept that. I just think NH and New England overall has more opportunity than people realize. Don't stay complacent!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    Then another question for all: how is Bear Brook unanimously considered the best riding in NH? I have covered Bear Brook from tip to tail and all around. I really thought it was great - but THAT is the best?
    OK i'll play since i'm waiting for my burrito to cool down a bit.

    where did you read that bb is the best in nh? when were you last there? personally it's one of my favorite places to ride in nh for many reasons, but there are other areas that offer quite a bit more challenge, elevation, and mileage. in nh. bb is a work in progress and nemba's doing a great job with trail building and relationships with park folk.

    There are opportunities to have better riding!
    whatever

    p.s. I realize my post may have been off base, and accept that. I just think NH and New England overall has more opportunity than people realize. Don't stay complacent!
    mebe you should consider vt. may be more to your liking.

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    Very little in New England is unanimous. Come back and explore as things stand now. The scene is strong here. I think you will be pleased.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSlav View Post
    Very little in New England is unanimous. Come back and explore as things stand now. The scene is strong here. I think you will be pleased.
    I like to hear that!

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    Yep, come to VT. New Hampshire, and especially southern New Hampshire, is full of McMansion-owning guys driving to their white-collar jobs in Mass in jacked up trucks, burning up cheap NH gas, earning Mass money, and paying NH income taxes (i.e. none). Live free or die, hey! Not to over generalize , but not necessarily the demographic that is all about pitching in for trail work and giving back for the greater good.

    Am I right guys??

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    Quote Originally Posted by VtVolk View Post
    Yep, come to VT. New Hampshire, and especially southern New Hampshire, is full of McMansion-owning guys driving to their white-collar jobs in Mass in jacked up trucks, burning up cheap NH gas, earning Mass money, and paying NH income taxes (i.e. none). Live free or die, hey! Not to over generalize , but not necessarily the demographic that is all about pitching in for trail work and giving back for the greater good.

    Am I right guys??
    heh, don't get me started on your fvcked up state, homie

    run along now.....

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    If its anything like up north, usually the best riding is under the radar. I like North Conway alot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jozz View Post
    If its anything like up north, usually the best riding is under the radar. I like North Conway alot.
    Makes sense. A lot of my research comes from looking at Singletracks, Nemba, and MTB Project sites. Every time I look I just expect to see more options.

    Perhaps many trails/systems go under the radar and unpublicized - but is this really a good thing for the sport and the region?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    Perhaps many trails/systems go under the radar and unpublicized - but is this really a good thing for the sport and the region?
    some of us like it that way. i like people but when i ride solo or with a friend(s) i prefer to not see anyone else. peace and quiet. not into "bike park" riding ala KT so much. under the radar riding terrain ftw!

    but cerealously if you like homogonized bike park kanteen boy kumbaya singing songs around the campfire while drinking kweer beer, then vt could very well be your eden of the east.

    hope you don't miss I-70 too much

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    You may like it that way, but mtb needs traffic a lot of the time. If you have less people riding your trails and putting less time in there, why would anyone continue to dedicate their time to maintaining the trails and keeping them awesome? Most of the time, it is way more beneficial for trails to be published and available to research online for the masses. Some may think of it like skiing and get worried about crowds, lift lines, gapers, etc., but mtb trails need traffic in order to be preserved and kept awesome.

    I-70 absolutely blows. God is it terrible.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    Makes sense. A lot of my research comes from looking at Singletracks, Nemba, and MTB Project sites. Every time I look I just expect to see more options.

    Perhaps many trails/systems go under the radar and unpublicized - but is this really a good thing for the sport and the region?
    It's complicated. It is nearly impossible to get anything new approved in the WMNF, although we did get ~12 miles of former bootleg trails approved as official 'system' trails a few years ago. Working with the Forest Service is far more difficult and complex than working with the BLM out west. State of NH owned lands are slightly easier but it depends on the particular state park or state forest and their respective land managers.

    We have had good success working on town lands - by far they are the easiest to get approval and there are lots of opportunities (of course this varies from town to town). I joined our local conservation commission many years ago and now serve as chair. The town just bought 400 acres abutting the WMNF with amazing terrain, boulders, ridges, old quarries; just an incredible blank slate to work with. Often times the issue is our opportunities outnumber the volunteers. A relatively small population base and a smaller percentage of people who are willing to work - it's hard getting a lot done with the same group of a dozen in their 50s & 60s. But the possibilities are out there.

    Lastly, much of New England is a jigsaw puzzle of privately owned land. Some, if not many, trails are on these lands have no formal landowner agreements. The owners might be aware of the trails but putting them on a map or on the web has greater implications. This is why lots of trails are under the radar, but it's getting better. We need to take the same tact that the snowmobile clubs did 20-30 years ago and ask for permission. In many cases we would be approved but we're just afraid to ask. Breaking out of those old habits is harder than just building that little connector or adding a new line. Unfortunately begging for forgiveness is getting old and bootlegging on public land, land trust land or on private land (in one case owned by the president of the local land trust) puts our credibility as a user group in jeopardy. We are dealing with multiple cases of this in my town alone but it's a problem all over the place.

    Chip in and do your part. Join local advocacy groups. Don't be building new trails that you think no one will notice because they will, it's just a matter of when.
    And when it happens it's a black eye for all mountain bikers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    You may like it that way, but mtb needs traffic a lot of the time. If you have less people riding your trails and putting less time in there, why would anyone continue to dedicate their time to maintaining the trails and keeping them awesome? Most of the time, it is way more beneficial for trails to be published and available to research online for the masses. Some may think of it like skiing and get worried about crowds, lift lines, gapers, etc., but mtb trails need traffic in order to be preserved and kept awesome.

    I-70 absolutely blows. God is it terrible.
    personally i like singletrack to stay that way. more riders means more widening, erosion and maintenance. the leaf blow raking this is really quite amusing. i mean ya i've done it, but prefer to just ride em in as they fall. as nature intended.

    there are plenty of well maintained trail networks out there. but for every mile of that stuff theres a dozen miles of old skool dirt to ride. thank goodness.

    fat bikes make it all good. deep leaves like skiing deep pow!

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    Quote Originally Posted by VtVolk View Post
    Yep, come to VT. New Hampshire, and especially southern New Hampshire, is full of McMansion-owning guys driving to their white-collar jobs in Mass in jacked up trucks, burning up cheap NH gas, earning Mass money, and paying NH income taxes (i.e. none). Live free or die, hey! Not to over generalize , but not necessarily the demographic that is all about pitching in for trail work and giving back for the greater good.

    Am I right guys??
    This is one of the dumbest statements I've ever heard. You do realize that if you actaully work in Mass, regardless of were you live, you pay Mass Income Tax. There are trail networks all over Southern NH........They didn't build themselves.

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    Freaking 11 hours and no comeback from njvolk?! Sheesh lets continue the ball busting!!!

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    Your comments hurt, but then I built some trail, started a campfire, and drank a couple of progressive VT beers without regard for their gender and/or sexual identity, and now I feel a lot better.

    My bad on the income tax thing. I learn something new every day on the internet!

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    Quote Originally Posted by VtVolk View Post
    Your comments hurt, but then I built some trail, started a campfire, and drank a couple of progressive VT beers without regard for their gender and/or sexual identity, and now I feel a lot better.

    My bad on the income tax thing. I learn something new every day on the internet!
    my comments weren't from the heart. just ball busting. sounds like a fine time you had brother

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    Quote Originally Posted by radair View Post
    It's complicated. It is nearly impossible to get anything new approved in the WMNF, although we did get ~12 miles of former bootleg trails approved as official 'system' trails a few years ago. Working with the Forest Service is far more difficult and complex than working with the BLM out west. State of NH owned lands are slightly easier but it depends on the particular state park or state forest and their respective land managers.

    We have had good success working on town lands - by far they are the easiest to get approval and there are lots of opportunities (of course this varies from town to town). I joined our local conservation commission many years ago and now serve as chair. The town just bought 400 acres abutting the WMNF with amazing terrain, boulders, ridges, old quarries; just an incredible blank slate to work with. Often times the issue is our opportunities outnumber the volunteers. A relatively small population base and a smaller percentage of people who are willing to work - it's hard getting a lot done with the same group of a dozen in their 50s & 60s. But the possibilities are out there.

    Lastly, much of New England is a jigsaw puzzle of privately owned land. Some, if not many, trails are on these lands have no formal landowner agreements. The owners might be aware of the trails but putting them on a map or on the web has greater implications. This is why lots of trails are under the radar, but it's getting better. We need to take the same tact that the snowmobile clubs did 20-30 years ago and ask for permission. In many cases we would be approved but we're just afraid to ask. Breaking out of those old habits is harder than just building that little connector or adding a new line. Unfortunately begging for forgiveness is getting old and bootlegging on public land, land trust land or on private land (in one case owned by the president of the local land trust) puts our credibility as a user group in jeopardy. We are dealing with multiple cases of this in my town alone but it's a problem all over the place.

    Chip in and do your part. Join local advocacy groups. Don't be building new trails that you think no one will notice because they will, it's just a matter of when.
    And when it happens it's a black eye for all mountain bikers.
    This is exactly the insight I was looking for!

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    Quote Originally Posted by VtVolk View Post
    Your comments hurt, but then I built some trail, started a campfire, and drank a couple of progressive VT beers without regard for their gender and/or sexual identity, and now I feel a lot better.

    My bad on the income tax thing. I learn something new every day on the internet!
    Bravo!

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    I'm with Rog on this. Narrow old-skool trails is where it's at. I also don't believe our sport needs more participants. In fact, the fewer the better in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    Then another question for all: how is Bear Brook unanimously considered the best riding in NH? I have covered Bear Brook from tip to tail and all around. I really thought it was great - but THAT is the best?

    There are opportunities to have better riding!


    p.s. I realize my post may have been off base, and accept that. I just think NH and New England overall has more opportunity than people realize. Don't stay complacent!
    When did you ride Bear BrooK ? The local trail crews have do deal with regular tree cutting forestry issues among others. I think it is great, the best? Everyone has an opinion. Less and less wild open back country here. NH is not CO. I love all the westerners looking for 2 hr climbs when they get out east. Not. What did you not like about Bear Brook? Radair summed up the area situation clearly. NEMBA has great chapter organization through most of NE. Great trails as well. We can't just build whatever we want anywhere. Here in MA we have the DCR, the state park authority for much of the open space. Great to work with and receptive to trail work in general. However, there are local conservation issues too, Wetlands and vernal pools as well. Many towns have control over the conservation lands, some encourage biking, some prohibit, many others fall in between. My local NEMBA chapter, North Shore gets to work with some other pro bike land owners as well. Like Essex County Greenbelt and Trustees of the Reservation. Not all of the properties are suitable for pedaling or allowed.We are making great strides all around, getting better every year. Just grab a Rogue hoe when you get here, we would love the help. I live in MA, north of Boston. From my house I can pedal over 60 miles of dirt with no driving involved. 100 more within 1/2 hr of car time. That's with suburban housing sprawl too.

  26. #26
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    Jim Bergeron, FOMBA Trailmaster, will lead a Spring Cleanup work day on Saturday, May 16th at 8am. Focus on a general cleanup and identification of areas needing additional attention. We have plenty of rakes but you might want your work gloves. Hope to see you there!

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    When did you ride Bear BrooK ? The local trail crews have do deal with regular tree cutting forestry issues among others. I think it is great, the best? Everyone has an opinion. Less and less wild open back country here. NH is not CO. I love all the westerners looking for 2 hr climbs when they get out east. Not. What did you not like about Bear Brook? Radair summed up the area situation clearly. NEMBA has great chapter organization through most of NE. Great trails as well. We can't just build whatever we want anywhere. Here in MA we have the DCR, the state park authority for much of the open space. Great to work with and receptive to trail work in general. However, there are local conservation issues too, Wetlands and vernal pools as well. Many towns have control over the conservation lands, some encourage biking, some prohibit, many others fall in between. My local NEMBA chapter, North Shore gets to work with some other pro bike land owners as well. Like Essex County Greenbelt and Trustees of the Reservation. Not all of the properties are suitable for pedaling or allowed.We are making great strides all around, getting better every year. Just grab a Rogue hoe when you get here, we would love the help. I live in MA, north of Boston. From my house I can pedal over 60 miles of dirt with no driving involved. 100 more within 1/2 hr of car time. That's with suburban housing sprawl too.
    I loved Bear Brook. The riding was outstanding. From a very general and perhaps uneducated perspective though, I would think New Hampshire could have some very epic and extensive trail networks that could be better. Untapped potential, if you will.

    That being said - all of your insight is exactly what I was trying to elicit. I really want to know what holds up trail building. Sounds mostly like privatized lands, conservation groups, state laws, etc. are the big deterrents. I totally understand these complications and am glad to hear organizations like NEMBA have been able to continuously improve trail building efforts.

  28. #28
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    You have to know the right people to access the good stuff....

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by dudeist View Post
    Jim Bergeron, FOMBA Trailmaster, will lead a Spring Cleanup work day on Saturday, May 16th at 8am. Focus on a general cleanup and identification of areas needing additional attention. We have plenty of rakes but you might want your work gloves. Hope to see you there!
    speaking of over populated trail wideing and erosion. bury the place and start over. or just rake a 12" swath down the middle of all singletracks and let the flora and fauna grow back in from the sides.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    speaking of over populated trail wideing and erosion. bury the place and start over. or just rake a 12" swath down the middle of all singletracks and let the flora and fauna grow back in from the sides.
    why do you like not being able to see where you are going?

    My biggest issue with leave covered trail is its sometim impossible to follow the trail at all when people stop riding it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
    why do you like not being able to see where you are going?

    My biggest issue with leave covered trail is its sometim impossible to follow the trail at all when people stop riding it.
    i can see where i'm going just fine. packing in leaves is incentive to ride more. not into sidewalk surfing like you guys like across the big river.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    i can see where i'm going just fine. packing in leaves is incentive to ride more. not into sidewalk surfing like you guys like across the big river.
    maybe you really do not have the flow trail skills to actually enjoy them with that said its all sidewalk over here.


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    Quote Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
    maybe you really do not have the flow trail skills to actually enjoy them with that said its all sidewalk over here.

    if i here the term "flow trail" one more time i'm gonna puke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    if i here the term "flow trail" one more time i'm gonna puke.
    what do you propose we call them then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
    what do you propose we call them then?
    metrosexual trails.:P

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    Quote Originally Posted by radair View Post
    Often times the issue is our opportunities outnumber the volunteers.
    Honestly I think if volunteers are needed so badly there should be a bigger attempt to enlist them! I moved up to NH 2 years ago and started ride a lot more regularly since. I ride maybe a dozen public networks within 30 minutes of work/home. I'm a UVMBA member in my 20's. I would LOVE to help out at trail work days, especially the kind with a few beers and somebody working a grill. However, of all these trails I only know of 2 trail days this spring. One I plan to be at, (wedding on the other).

    Where are the rest of the trail days!!?! I know one local bike shop stops halfway through their weekly ride and does 20 minutes of work (I think that's a great strategy) but seriously, where are the rest of the trail days? I brought my 6 year old with me to one last year and we had a great time throwing dirt around. I think part of the problem is the view of trail work. It can be a great time, and should be advertised as such!

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    the nemba bear brook trail work days/weekends are always a good time a bunch gets done. haven't been able to make the last few, but have helped build bridges and open up some new stuff and it's always so rewarding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brills View Post
    Honestly I think if volunteers are needed so badly there should be a bigger attempt to enlist them! I moved up to NH 2 years ago and started ride a lot more regularly since. I ride maybe a dozen public networks within 30 minutes of work/home. I'm a UVMBA member in my 20's. I would LOVE to help out at trail work days, especially the kind with a few beers and somebody working a grill. However, of all these trails I only know of 2 trail days this spring. One I plan to be at, (wedding on the other).

    Where are the rest of the trail days!!?! I know one local bike shop stops halfway through their weekly ride and does 20 minutes of work (I think that's a great strategy) but seriously, where are the rest of the trail days? I brought my 6 year old with me to one last year and we had a great time throwing dirt around. I think part of the problem is the view of trail work. It can be a great time, and should be advertised as such!
    There are 6 NEMBA chapters in NH. I'm sure they would all like your help. On Facebook? That's usually a good way to stay connected. Our NS NEMBA chapter does at least 8 official trail days each year. Split between spring and fall. Most days we work for 4-5 hours, eat with provided lunch and then pedal. Works for me. I can also find trail days with the MV chapter, GB chapter, Andover Trail committee, Essex County greenbelt and Trustees of the reservation. Got a local conservation commission? Drive south and I will provide bacon and sharpen a Rouge hoe for you. Cheers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    if i here the term "flow trail" one more time i'm gonna puke.
    Flow trails are a ton of fun on a singlespeed. You can actually get a nice cadence (without puking) on long climbs on a SS if they're that type of trail construction. With a geared bike the flow climbs can be kind of boring - just a step away from doubletrack.
    "Gone are the days we stopped to decide where we should go. We just ride." - Robert Hunter

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    Quote Originally Posted by YETI_NH View Post
    You have to know the right people to access the good stuff....
    I'm not disagreeing or saying you're wrong, but that notion is a bad thing for the sport and the region. If you need to "know the right people", to me this is a detractor.

    I know everyone wants their own little riding paradise where no one goes, but if the riding population actually begins declining and less people are dedicating themselves to the sport and trail maintenance, folks are only going to get more pissed off about the continuing development of private lands, the increase of state land laws, and the lack of trail upkeep.

    Take Colorado for instance - where I'll admit some riding spots feel like a lift line at Vail on nice weekends. There is a massive, massive dedication to the sport, countless quality bike shops (in Golden area), and an amazing County department (Jefferson) that is always looking to build bigger and better for its citizens. This is a good thing! For the local economy, for the sport, and for the dedicated masses! If you have to "know the right people" to ride the good stuff, the regional sport as a whole is not headed in the right direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scharny View Post
    Flow trails are a ton of fun on a singlespeed. You can actually get a nice cadence (without puking) on long climbs on a SS if they're that type of trail construction. With a geared bike the flow climbs can be kind of boring - just a step away from doubletrack.
    Ss bikes are fun if not geared too low so that you can easily spin out on the flats. Geared bikes are fun cuz you can hammer even bigger gears to gain more speed and you don't hafta shift at all if'n ya don't want to making them even betterer singlespeeds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    I'm not disagreeing or saying you're wrong, but that notion is a bad thing for the sport and the region. If you need to "know the right people", to me this is a detractor.

    I know everyone wants their own little riding paradise where no one goes, but if the riding population actually begins declining and less people are dedicating themselves to the sport and trail maintenance, folks are only going to get more pissed off about the continuing development of private lands, the increase of state land laws, and the lack of trail upkeep.

    Take Colorado for instance - where I'll admit some riding spots feel like a lift line at Vail on nice weekends. There is a massive, massive dedication to the sport, countless quality bike shops (in Golden area), and an amazing County department (Jefferson) that is always looking to build bigger and better for its citizens. This is a good thing! For the local economy, for the sport, and for the dedicated masses! If you have to "know the right people" to ride the good stuff, the regional sport as a whole is not headed in the right direction.
    Many of us don't want what you want. I've spent time in colorado for up to a month at a time, riding, skiing. Front range, vail, durango, telluride (gods country-best riding in co, imo), and while i enjoyed myself, i would never want to live there compared to out here. I'm not into crowded trails and busy woods and wilderness. i'm not into crowded trailheads. I like that i can ride for hours and hours and never see anyone else, even on weekends. I prefer the riding here over there for many reasons.

    If you want whats there to be here yer sure to be disappointed. You should just stay there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    Many of us don't want what you want. I've spent time in colorado for up to a month at a time, riding, skiing. Front range, vail, durango, telluride (gods country-best riding in co, imo), and while i enjoyed myself, i would never want to live there compared to out here. I'm not into crowded trails and busy woods and wilderness. i'm not into crowded trailheads. I like that i can ride for hours and hours and never see anyone else, even on weekends. I prefer the riding here over there for many reasons.

    If you want whats there to be here yer sure to be disappointed. You should just stay there.
    I don't like crowds either, and I probably exaggerated by comparing some spots to Vail. Generally, most places are not that crowded. I love riding New England too, and look forward to riding there again, but gaining more dedicated folks who are out building new trails, maintaining current ones, and looking to expand the sport in the region is sure as hell not a bad thing.

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    Plenty of dedicated folks building and maintaining trail here. More trail than you could ride in a lifetime once you find it (adventure)

    In plymouth mass right now visiting the inlaws on our way to the vinyard and got out for an hour and a half ride late this afternoon before dinner. Thru a leg over the fatbike not knowing what i'd find. Headed out to the main road and immediately saw a trail heading into the woods and didn't find my way back out till an hour and a half later. Amazing. I coulda ridden for days it seemed. No maps, no gps, no strava, no beta, just follow my front wheel and explore. Adventure. Can't wait to take it further.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    I'm not disagreeing or saying you're wrong, but that notion is a bad thing for the sport and the region. If you need to "know the right people", to me this is a detractor.

    I know everyone wants their own little riding paradise where no one goes, but if the riding population actually begins declining and less people are dedicating themselves to the sport and trail maintenance, folks are only going to get more pissed off about the continuing development of private lands, the increase of state land laws, and the lack of trail upkeep.

    Take Colorado for instance - where I'll admit some riding spots feel like a lift line at Vail on nice weekends. There is a massive, massive dedication to the sport, countless quality bike shops (in Golden area), and an amazing County department (Jefferson) that is always looking to build bigger and better for its citizens. This is a good thing! For the local economy, for the sport, and for the dedicated masses! If you have to "know the right people" to ride the good stuff, the regional sport as a whole is not headed in the right direction.
    I do understand where your comming from. The two huge trail systems Im refering to are on 90% private property. Each is maintained by a very tight group of riders and other outdoor enthusiasts. Took me over 2 years to get in with one group. Each system is 60+ miles of single track and rivals any trails in the country. So with a little networking, helping hands, and respect for the land owners these trails can be accessed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    Plenty of dedicated folks building and maintaining trail here. More trail than you could ride in a lifetime once you find it (adventure)

    In plymouth mass right now visiting the inlaws on our way to the vinyard and got out for an hour and a half ride late this afternoon before dinner. Thru a leg over the fatbike not knowing what i'd find. Headed out to the main road and immediately saw a trail heading into the woods and didn't find my way back out till an hour and a half later. Amazing. I coulda ridden for days it seemed. No maps, no gps, no strava, no beta, just follow my front wheel and explore. Adventure. Can't wait to take it further.
    everything has been GPSed at some point in time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    Many of us don't want what you want. I've spent time in colorado for up to a month at a time, riding, skiing. Front range, vail, durango, telluride (gods country-best riding in co, imo), and while i enjoyed myself, i would never want to live there compared to out here. I'm not into crowded trails and busy woods and wilderness. i'm not into crowded trailheads. I like that i can ride for hours and hours and never see anyone else, even on weekends. I prefer the riding here over there for many reasons.

    If you want whats there to be here yer sure to be disappointed. You should just stay there.
    What he said. NE is not CO nirvana. There are plenty of trails and dedicated riders/groups who maintain them. Well, there is not massive dedication to the sport by local and state officials. We have to play nice with everybody. Like building multiuse trails that hikers and others will enjoy on state ( MA) DCR properties. Also realizing that mt biking is just part of the broad spectrum of outdoor recreation. Maybe we should be the judge of what is good and bad for our sport, the people who actually live and work here? And do the trail work. Im also going to second the the idea of local knowledge about trails. The guys and gals I ride with and do trail work have a huge knowledge of local trails, networks and connections. Not everyone is a stravahole. All the trails I ride on are in the public realm. You just have to do the map searching, looking at topo maps, checking out cons/comm pages etc. to link up some awesome loops. Or do trail work. Only a small percentage of the mt bikers do trail work. I'm guessing 20-25%. I would love to get some great info on that stat. So the people who actually do the trail work on the trails get to know where the best trails are, go figure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
    everything has been GPSed at some point in time.
    Not everything

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    What he said. NE is not CO nirvana. There are plenty of trails and dedicated riders/groups who maintain them. Well, there is not massive dedication to the sport by local and state officials. We have to play nice with everybody. Like building multiuse trails that hikers and others will enjoy on state ( MA) DCR properties. Also realizing that mt biking is just part of the broad spectrum of outdoor recreation. Maybe we should be the judge of what is good and bad for our sport, the people who actually live and work here? And do the trail work. Im also going to second the the idea of local knowledge about trails. The guys and gals I ride with and do trail work have a huge knowledge of local trails, networks and connections. Not everyone is a stravahole. All the trails I ride on are in the public realm. You just have to do the map searching, looking at topo maps, checking out cons/comm pages etc. to link up some awesome loops. Or do trail work. Only a small percentage of the mt bikers do trail work. I'm guessing 20-25%. I would love to get some great info on that stat. So the people who actually do the trail work on the trails get to know where the best trails are, go figure.
    So what happens when the dedicated folks start getting older and the upcoming generations decide that trail riding isn't their thing? Not all parents riding out there are going to be successful in getting their kids into the sport, let alone pass along the knowledge of local trails. At some point, word needs to get out so the up-and-comers can actually have the opportunity to maintain the regional sport and let it grow a bit. You guys have your trail gems now, but guaranteed it ain't gonna last forever if these tight groups of people are the only key-holders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    So what happens when the dedicated folks start getting older and the upcoming generations decide that trail riding isn't their thing? Not all parents riding out there are going to be successful in getting their kids into the sport, let alone pass along the knowledge of local trails. At some point, word needs to get out so the up-and-comers can actually have the opportunity to maintain the regional sport and let it grow a bit. You guys have your trail gems now, but guaranteed it ain't gonna last forever if these tight groups of people are the only key-holders.
    C-O-L-O-rad-O. You need to start up a cult. No purple polo's and black slacks tho. Dint work out so well for those poor bAstards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    So what happens when the dedicated folks start getting older and the upcoming generations decide that trail riding isn't their thing? ...
    High school MTB teams are taking off all over the place. Our local high school had over 40 kids on the team last fall. This is a school where 150 +/- kids graduate each year. MTBing is not shrinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    I don't like crowds either, and I probably exaggerated by comparing some spots to Vail. Generally, most places are not that crowded. I love riding New England too, and look forward to riding there again, but gaining more dedicated folks who are out building new trails, maintaining current ones, and looking to expand the sport in the region is sure as hell not a bad thing.
    The issue that arises is that many clubs, like in Vermont, turn into marketing machines and are transforming what was once a resource that existed and grew out of a desire and effort to increase the local quality of life into a product to be sold as part of the greater tourism economy. Problem arose when many of the visitors couldn't find trail easy enough for them to enjoy (outside the Kingdom). The marketing has worked for sure. Numbers are huge now as compared to what they were 10 years back. The new demographic of riders, even locals drawn in by easy trails and equipment that facilitates riding trail even further, feel entitled to all trail for their 50 bucks and very very few of them engage in meaningful trail work efforts. They expect exactly the experience they want to be built for them, ready to ride when they want to ride. The result has been a tipping of the balance to a decidedly unsustainable activity......but hey....look at all the money we're making! The folks who have been around a while remember a grass roots scene where more people helped then not, we built trails to be as challenging as possible, even if we couldn't ride them clean every time, and no one had their hand out for access. The opinions being expressed here are a push back to that new dynamic.

    Also, many private land owners don't want the public on their land. They give permission for trails to people they know in town, don't want them advertised or signed....or GPSed. Welcome to New England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by radair View Post
    High school MTB teams are taking off all over the place. Our local high school had over 40 kids on the team last fall. This is a school where 150 +/- kids graduate each year. MTBing is not shrinking.
    Are those kids getting involved in building/maintaining? We have groups like that also, never see them or parents on trail days. We also have many many many trailrunners, aint seeing them either...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    So what happens when the dedicated folks start getting older and the upcoming generations decide that trail riding isn't their thing? Not all parents riding out there are going to be successful in getting their kids into the sport, let alone pass along the knowledge of local trails. At some point, word needs to get out so the up-and-comers can actually have the opportunity to maintain the regional sport and let it grow a bit. You guys have your trail gems now, but guaranteed it ain't gonna last forever if these tight groups of people are the only key-holders.
    Who cares. If it dies and the trails disappear with "Us" then they do. Seems like a natural cycle to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Who cares. If it dies and the trails disappear with "Us" then they do. Seems like a natural cycle to me.
    I agree with this sentiment. For instance who knows what riding will be like in the future anyway? For all we know mountain biking in the future will all be e-fatbikes on the hell track from Rad. Trails will change and some will die as well as trends. The importance should be placed on making the next generation excited about blazing their own path so to speak rather than riding exclusively on the coat tails of those riders and builders who came before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigkat273 View Post
    ...Trails will change and some will die as well as trends. The importance should be placed on making the next generation excited about blazing their own path so to speak rather than riding exclusively on the coat tails of those riders and builders who came before.
    Exactly. Get the young'ns out blazing new trails and maintaining the ones their predecessors built. All the b.s. some of these other posters have been spraying has been opposite of this sentiment. How in the shit is the sport going to grow in the area if the current generations coming up aren't as dedicated as their predecessors...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    Exactly. Get the young'ns out blazing new trails and maintaining the ones their predecessors built. All the b.s. some of these other posters have been spraying has been opposite of this sentiment. How in the shit is the sport going to grow in the area if the current generations coming up aren't as dedicated as their predecessors...
    Grow the sport? Who cares. Take care of the trail you ride. If you need trail, build it...hopefully with permission and help. The riding is everywhere! The best stuff is the stuff you can't find. The more you help, the longer you ride around here, the more you will discover. Hopefully the younger gen will have interest. If not, trails will wither and disappear. So be it. I live in Vt. Within 30 minutes of me there is like 100 miles of trail. Maybe more. Northfield, Berlin, Millstone, Waterbury, Waitsfield, Rochester, Montpelier, Randolph. Add another 15 minutes to that drive and I'm in Stowe, Hinesburg, Richmond. Grow? Who cares. I have hundreds of miles to ride. Stop trying to blow up a scene that is well developed and thriving. I'm sure the rest of New England is similar. Only problem is everything being over marketed and under cared for.

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    Ultimately to the point of younger people not being involved I would partly blame the older established builders as not being welcoming at times. When I moved to Portsmouth, NH after college I contacted the local NEMBA chapter about being put in contact with the local people who maintain the trails in Exeter, NH. I tried again the next year and had the same result, so ultimately I gave up. I was told they had too many volunteers there both times and he wanted me to help him in Merrimack, NH. I ultimately passed as I wanted to work on my local trails and not have to drive an hour to do trail work on trails I would probably never ride. I know that is a selfish statement but when I lived and helped with the trails in Rutland, VT I was always told you could never have enough volunteer work for trail projects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Grow the sport? Who cares. Take care of the trail you ride. If you need trail, build it...hopefully with permission and help. The riding is everywhere! The best stuff is the stuff you can't find. The more you help, the longer you ride around here, the more you will discover. Hopefully the younger gen will have interest. If not, trails will wither and disappear. So be it. I live in Vt. Within 30 minutes of me there is like 100 miles of trail. Maybe more. Northfield, Berlin, Millstone, Waterbury, Waitsfield, Rochester, Montpelier, Randolph. Add another 15 minutes to that drive and I'm in Stowe, Hinesburg, Richmond. Grow? Who cares. I have hundreds of miles to ride. Stop trying to blow up a scene that is well developed and thriving. I'm sure the rest of New England is similar. Only problem is everything being over marketed and under cared for.
    Exactly

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    Quote Originally Posted by ddot888 View Post
    Ultimately to the point of younger people not being involved I would partly blame the older established builders as not being welcoming at times. When I moved to Portsmouth, NH after college I contacted the local NEMBA chapter about being put in contact with the local people who maintain the trails in Exeter, NH. I tried again the next year and had the same result, so ultimately I gave up. I was told they had too many volunteers there both times and he wanted me to help him in Merrimack, NH. I ultimately passed as I wanted to work on my local trails and not have to drive an hour to do trail work on trails I would probably never ride. I know that is a selfish statement but when I lived and helped with the trails in Rutland, VT I was always told you could never have enough volunteer work for trail projects.

    Move to coloRADo. Lol!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    Exactly. Get the young'ns out blazing new trails and maintaining the ones their predecessors built. All the b.s. some of these other posters have been spraying has been opposite of this sentiment. How in the shit is the sport going to grow in the area if the current generations coming up aren't as dedicated as their predecessors...
    Go ahead, open the flood gates. The land owners are perfeclty clear on how much traffic is acceptable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YETI_NH View Post
    Go ahead, open the flood gates. The land owners are perfeclty clear on how much traffic is acceptable.
    ...And more riders has not meant more workers....just means more riders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    Move to coloRADo. Lol!
    No thanks, I had a great ride this morning and didn't see a soul here in northern NH. Like you said just need to know where to look.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    ...And more riders has not meant more workers....just means more riders.
    I should have been more clear. The trail networks Im speaking of would be shut down in a blink of an eye. The land owners only want so much traffic.

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    I see plenty of younger people pedaling. Lots of mt biking families. And high school mt teams cropping up everywhere. NE ain't CO. I guess we're not rad enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ddot888 View Post
    I was told they had too many volunteers there both times and he wanted me to help him in Merrimack, NH. I ultimately passed as I wanted to work on my local trails and not have to drive an hour to do trail work on trails I would probably never ride.
    Whoever told you that was an idiot. No matter where you live and ride - there's never enough TM volunteers. Join the Southern NH Facebook group and ask there.

    NEMBA Facebook Groups | NEMBA

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    Quote Originally Posted by berkshire_rider View Post
    Whoever told you that was an idiot. No matter where you live and ride - there's never enough TM volunteers. Join the Southern NH Facebook group and ask there.

    NEMBA Facebook Groups | NEMBA
    I actually totally get that. You can never have enough welltrained, committed volunteers. You can easily have too many first timers show up to one well advertised trailwork day an end up getting less done then a smaller, more trained group....and may be faced with re-working a lot of what got done. Many times people think that by showing up to a day or two suddenly gives them a place at the table in terms of the "hows" and "whys" of projects. Volunteers need to be humble and understand that the leaders likely have thousands of times more experience and hours in then you. Be a regular helper and you will get more control.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    ...I live in Vt. Within 30 minutes of me there is like 100 miles of trail. Maybe more. Northfield, Berlin, Millstone, Waterbury, Waitsfield, Rochester, Montpelier, Randolph. Add another 15 minutes to that drive and I'm in Stowe, Hinesburg, Richmond. Grow? Who cares. I have hundreds of miles to ride. Stop trying to blow up a scene that is well developed and thriving. I'm sure the rest of New England is similar. Only problem is everything being over marketed and under cared for.
    I'm not trying to blow up anything. Mostly, I'm trying to understand how MA and VT are out-pacing NH in terms of trail volume. I fully comprehend the 'build it, ride it' notion and the fact that you have to 'know people' to ride the good stuff. But what makes NH so special in that regard? Why do MA and VT have so many publicized trail systems? Just because a state makes an effort to make public more trails on MTB Project, or Singletracks, or MTBR, doesn't mean they're 'selling out' or whatever you guys are afraid of.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    I actually totally get that. You can never have enough welltrained, committed volunteers. You can easily have too many first timers show up to one well advertised trailwork day an end up getting less done then a smaller, more trained group....and may be faced with re-working a lot of what got done. Many times people think that by showing up to a day or two suddenly gives them a place at the table in terms of the "hows" and "whys" of projects. Volunteers need to be humble and understand that the leaders likely have thousands of times more experience and hours in then you. Be a regular helper and you will get more control.
    As I have moved away but will be moving back to Southern NH in the next few weeks (though a different part) I will be in contact once I am settled into the new place. As for being humble (I wanted to know when they had organized trail days to go help) I have no issue doing any task that is asked of me, as I have volunteered at a few different organizations doing trail work during college and understand they want to make sure you are competent and understand what you are doing and why you are doing it. But personally I think I am more useful as a "grunt" when it comes to trail work as I have a lot to learn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    I actually totally get that. You can never have enough welltrained, committed volunteers. You can easily have too many first timers show up to one well advertised trailwork day.
    Yes, lots of manpower, not enough leaders. You need to be super alert for people who take "liberty" into what the trail should be for "them" sometimes screwing up a perfectly good line that had been though up when first designed. I now reluctantly participate in those seasonal big trail days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ddot888 View Post
    As I have moved away but will be moving back to Southern NH in the next few weeks (though a different part) I will be in contact once I am settled into the new place. As for being humble (I wanted to know when they had organized trail days to go help) I have no issue doing any task that is asked of me, as I have volunteered at a few different organizations doing trail work during college and understand they want to make sure you are competent and understand what you are doing and why you are doing it. But personally I think I am more useful as a "grunt" when it comes to trail work as I have a lot to learn.
    Sounds like a great attitude. I would be skeptical of anyone telling you NH has less riding then Vt or Mass. Probably just less of a formal state wide club marketing, and more of an local underground scene. Lucky.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jozz View Post
    Are those kids getting involved in building/maintaining? We have groups like that also, never see them or parents on trail days. We also have many many many trailrunners, aint seeing them either...
    One of the high schools around here seems to have kids out building every week. It's actually a bit of a problem that we don't have scheduled trail work days for the rest of us to chip in!

    Of course another local school goes and builds without permission and gets access revoked from areas...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jozz View Post
    If its anything like up north, usually the best riding is under the radar. I like North Conway alot.
    That is 100% it - there is a ton of riding, but your not going to read about it on the internet. My guess is that there is a couple reason for this. One is that lots of trails go across private land. Most times with landowners permission (sometimes not) and people have learned a few jack asses will wreck it. Therefore you need to be in the circle of trust. Secondly there is just the crowd factor. Anything well publicized can be swarmed upon with a large population to the south. Kinda like VT getting invaded with NY'ers during ski season. Not a lot of fun.

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    I'm kinda late to this party, but I have to ask: who the hell decided Colorado was the benchmark for mountain biking? I drove through that state twice last year and I recall passing through about six hours of the worst riding on earth, two hours of 12,000 feet stuff that you'd have to train at all the time to not feel like you had flat tires, and maybe four more hours of desert. The desert is cool and all, but I'm kind of all about the forest.

    Anyone who doesn't understand why we don't feel that keen about making this place more like out west may find themselves a stranger in a strange land when confronted by the mentality of the locals on a day to day basis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bad news View Post
    I'm kinda late to this party, but I have to ask: who the hell decided Colorado was the benchmark for mountain biking? I drove through that state twice last year and I recall passing through about six hours of the worst riding on earth, two hours of 12,000 feet stuff that you'd have to train at all the time to not feel like you had flat tires, and maybe four more hours of desert. The desert is cool and all, but I'm kind of all about the forest.

    Anyone who doesn't understand why we don't feel that keen about making this place more like out west may find themselves a stranger in a strange land when confronted by the mentality of the locals on a day to day basis.
    end/TR^^^^^^^^^

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    CO kicks ass. Dave, if you didn't find great riding there you should have kept looking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bad news View Post
    I'm kinda late to this party, but I have to ask: who the hell decided Colorado was the benchmark for mountain biking? I drove through that state twice last year and I recall passing through about six hours of the worst riding on earth, two hours of 12,000 feet stuff that you'd have to train at all the time to not feel like you had flat tires, and maybe four more hours of desert. The desert is cool and all, but I'm kind of all about the forest.

    Anyone who doesn't understand why we don't feel that keen about making this place more like out west may find themselves a stranger in a strange land when confronted by the mentality of the locals on a day to day basis.
    No one here, including myself, has stated the riding in CO is better. In fact, I personally prefer New England riding overall and also consider myself a man of the forest rather than desert.

    The post was simply questioning why NH in particular has less publicized trail systems which led me to believe there is a lack of trail development in the state. I see it as vastly untapped potential. I referenced Colorado, maintaining that there is an impressive dedication at the town and county levels to build and maintain trails. This is something I simply don't see happening in NH or other NE states (I could be dead wrong, but it was an educated guess).

    Honestly though, it is pathetically short-sighted of several posters here to presume things about Colorado trails without actually diving into them. There are some amazing, deep forest singletrack segments and there are some awesome hidden gems that no one rides, much like the heralded trails spoken of in NH. If you come to ride in Colorado for a couple weeks and don't think it's awesome, you are in serious denial and should probably question your dedication to MTB.

    I am a New Englander through and through, and will more likely side with those that like to hate on the "rad" nature of Colorado or whatever. But with all this short-sighted and presumptuous banter, some of the NE posters in this thread are sounding like the real db's of the conversation. /rant

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    Quote Originally Posted by radair View Post
    CO kicks ass. Dave, if you didn't find great riding there you should have kept looking.
    Who, Me? I never said anything about Colorado. How can it not have great riding. It's huge and has big Mtns.

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    the other dave. great guy and rider with a nice message for hog breath.

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    -- double post --
    Last edited by mizzaboom; 05-23-2015 at 04:35 AM.

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    Some of you highlight exactly what is wrong with mountain biking in New England, especially NH. You resist growth because of "marketing" and having your local gems ridden by people "outside the loop". The fact is, there are TONS of trails that were built illegally yet there's zero consequence (for the most part) for riding or maintaining them. The best thing you can do is reach out to land owners and the government in order to legitimize.
    Mountain biking and legit trail systems in general are good for the local economies. You can scoff and be douchey about it if you want. But let's be honest -- Burke would be an economic waste land without KT.

    There are plenty of people willing to help build and maintain trails. It's the same as it ever was. How the hell do you think all these trails are still rideable? It's been 30 years. The same guys that built them aren't still out there with shovels, for the most part.

    I think this is the only sport I've ever been involved with where the old timers actively chastise the up and comers so vehemently. A lot of us are getting our families and kids involved to build/ maintain. If you want to be grandpa Gus on the porch crying about the good old days go right ahead. The rest of us are progressing with or without you

    Edit: one thing I forgot to address is the guy that said something along the lines of "they pay their fee and expect everything to be ready to rock". You're damn right! If I'm paying a fee at a destination I expect they have a trail crew that maintains the trails. I don't show up at Jay expecting to run the snowcat or bump chairs. That's why I buy a damn lift ticket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaboom View Post
    Some of you highlight exactly what is wrong with mountain biking in New England, especially NH. You resist growth because of "marketing" and having your local gems ridden by people "outside the loop". The fact is, there are TONS of trails that were built illegally yet there's zero consequence (for the most part) for riding or maintaining them. The best thing you can do is reach out to land owners and the government in order to legitimize.
    Mountain biking and legit trail systems in general are good for the local economies. You can scoff and be douchey about it if you want. But let's be honest -- Burke would be an economic waste land without KT.

    There are plenty of people willing to help build and maintain trails. It's the same as it ever was. How the hell do you think all these trails are still rideable? It's been 30 years. The same guys that built them aren't still out there with shovels, for the most part.

    I think this is the only sport I've ever been involved with where the old timers actively chastise the up and comers so vehemently. A lot of us are getting our families and kids involved to build/ maintain. If you want to be grandpa Gus on the porch crying about the good old days go right ahead. The rest of us are progressing with or without you

    Edit: one thing I forgot to address is the guy that said something along the lines of "they pay their fee and expect everything to be ready to rock". You're damn right! If I'm paying a fee at a destination I expect they have a trail crew that maintains the trails. I don't show up at Jay expecting to run the snowcat or bump chairs. That's why I buy a damn lift ticket.
    please move to coloRADo, chad^^^^^^^^

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    please move to coloRADo, chad^^^^^^^^
    I don't speak bro. Can you translate that for me?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaboom View Post
    Some of you highlight exactly what is wrong with mountain biking in New England, especially NH. You resist growth because of "marketing" and having your local gems ridden by people "outside the loop". The fact is, there are TONS of trails that were built illegally yet there's zero consequence (for the most part) for riding or maintaining them. The best thing you can do is reach out to land owners and the government in order to legitimize.
    Mountain biking and legit trail systems in general are good for the local economies. You can scoff and be douchey about it if you want. But let's be honest -- Burke would be an economic waste land without KT.

    There are plenty of people willing to help build and maintain trails. It's the same as it ever was. How the hell do you think all these trails are still rideable? It's been 30 years. The same guys that built them aren't still out there with shovels, for the most part.

    I think this is the only sport I've ever been involved with where the old timers actively chastise the up and comers so vehemently. A lot of us are getting our families and kids involved to build/ maintain. If you want to be grandpa Gus on the porch crying about the good old days go right ahead. The rest of us are progressing with or without you

    Edit: one thing I forgot to address is the guy that said something along the lines of "they pay their fee and expect everything to be ready to rock". You're damn right! If I'm paying a fee at a destination I expect they have a trail crew that maintains the trails. I don't show up at Jay expecting to run the snowcat or bump chairs. That's why I buy a damn lift ticket.
    The LAST thing I hope for my local MTB development is that it turns where I live into a place like KT. Tourism creates crap jobs, at crap pay and locals loose their relaxed and accessible recreational resources to entitled tourists. If you don't have any expectations to participate in the dirt work of a trail network that you ride often, stay out. What, you pay for 50 buck to VMBA, half of which goes to a local club? Great, you paid for 12 minutes of trail work. This is not a sustainable model and our back yard trails degrade. The department of tourism in Vermont struggles to put a $ on all the quality-of-life resources many of us live here for in an attempt to put a $ on their continued existence. The jobs created through tourism are part time, low pay, and offer no benefits. The people who make money in tourism based economies are people who already have money, i.e. land developers and hotel owners. The rest of us should be happy with an extra shift at the gas station, or wiping down your tables after you leave an eatery for the buck-fiddy you threw down next to the mess you left. If we are going to charge for access, we should be charging 50-100 a DAY. If 1/5 of you come here to ride, but we get 10 times as much $, we make twice as much and have less crowds, less garbage, less pollution, less competition for our recreational resources...none of the metrics are ever represented in any Dept of Tourism Economic impact study, yet have profound affects on our daily experience.

    "I pay so I want my trails ready!" Go hump a porcupine with that nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    The LAST thing I hope for my local MTB development is that it turns where I live into a place like KT. Tourism creates crap jobs, at crap pay and locals loose their relaxed and accessible recreational resources to entitled tourists. If you don't have any expectations to participate in the dirt work of a trail network that you ride often, stay out. What, you pay for 50 buck to VMBA, half of which goes to a local club? Great, you paid for 12 minutes of trail work. This is not a sustainable model and our back yard trails degrade. The department of tourism in Vermont struggles to put a $ on all the quality-of-life resources many of us live here for in an attempt to put a $ on their continued existence. The jobs created through tourism are part time, low pay, and offer no benefits. The people who make money in tourism based economies are people who already have money, i.e. land developers and hotel owners. The rest of us should be happy with an extra shift at the gas station, or wiping down your tables after you leave an eatery for the buck-fiddy you threw down next to the mess you left. If we are going to charge for access, we should be charging 50-100 a DAY. If 1/5 of you come here to ride, but we get 10 times as much $, we make twice as much and have less crowds, less garbage, less pollution, less competition for our recreational resources...none of the metrics are ever represented in any Dept of Tourism Economic impact study, yet have profound affects on our daily experience.

    "I pay so I want my trails ready!" Go hump a porcupine with that nonsense.
    I made 20k in 5 months working at SMR this year. Getting rich no but not exactly low paying. Not all tourism jobs are low paying. I just wish there was summer time job that I could find that paid as well. You just have to figure out a way to work more as private contractor or for yourself than a wage slave bumping chairs or something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaboom View Post
    I don't speak bro. Can you translate that for me?
    no bettah time to start lernin than now you entitled jabroni.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    The LAST thing I hope for my local MTB development is that it turns where I live into a place like KT. Tourism creates crap jobs, at crap pay and locals loose their relaxed and accessible recreational resources to entitled tourists. If you don't have any expectations to participate in the dirt work of a trail network that you ride often, stay out. What, you pay for 50 buck to VMBA, half of which goes to a local club? Great, you paid for 12 minutes of trail work. This is not a sustainable model and our back yard trails degrade. The department of tourism in Vermont struggles to put a $ on all the quality-of-life resources many of us live here for in an attempt to put a $ on their continued existence. The jobs created through tourism are part time, low pay, and offer no benefits. The people who make money in tourism based economies are people who already have money, i.e. land developers and hotel owners. The rest of us should be happy with an extra shift at the gas station, or wiping down your tables after you leave an eatery for the buck-fiddy you threw down next to the mess you left. If we are going to charge for access, we should be charging 50-100 a DAY. If 1/5 of you come here to ride, but we get 10 times as much $, we make twice as much and have less crowds, less garbage, less pollution, less competition for our recreational resources...none of the metrics are ever represented in any Dept of Tourism Economic impact study, yet have profound affects on our daily experience.

    "I pay so I want my trails ready!" Go hump a porcupine with that nonsense.
    this^^^^^^^^^^^to a T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
    I made 20k in 5 months working at SMR this year. Getting rich no but not exactly low paying. Not all tourism jobs are low paying. I just wish there was summer time job that I could find that paid as well. You just have to figure out a way to work more as private contractor or for yourself than a wage slave bumping chairs or something.
    sell yourself to rich widows, j-man

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    Quote Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
    I made 20k in 5 months working at SMR this year. Getting rich no but not exactly low paying. Not all tourism jobs are low paying. I just wish there was summer time job that I could find that paid as well. You just have to figure out a way to work more as private contractor or for yourself than a wage slave bumping chairs or something.
    OK. Then you were likely unemployed for a month on either end of that. Plus I doubt you had health insurance. Paid vacation? How much of that was tips? What are you making for the summer? By the end of the year you'll make what...35K with no benefits by working 2 or 3 jobs throughout the year. Proves my point. Plus you have to work for SMR, a place that is whoring out one of the most beautiful places in the state with million dollar condos and private country clubs. The development there is the best example of grotesque land development in the most gaudy and exclusionist way possible by a corporation consistently ranked as one of the most corrupt and detrimental in the world year in year out. Sounds like you're winning. :$

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    The LAST thing I hope for my local MTB development is that it turns where I live into a place like KT. Tourism creates crap jobs, at crap pay and locals loose their relaxed and accessible recreational resources to entitled tourists. If you don't have any expectations to participate in the dirt work of a trail network that you ride often, stay out. What, you pay for 50 buck to VMBA, half of which goes to a local club? Great, you paid for 12 minutes of trail work. This is not a sustainable model and our back yard trails degrade. The department of tourism in Vermont struggles to put a $ on all the quality-of-life resources many of us live here for in an attempt to put a $ on their continued existence. The jobs created through tourism are part time, low pay, and offer no benefits. The people who make money in tourism based economies are people who already have money, i.e. land developers and hotel owners. The rest of us should be happy with an extra shift at the gas station, or wiping down your tables after you leave an eatery for the buck-fiddy you threw down next to the mess you left. If we are going to charge for access, we should be charging 50-100 a DAY. If 1/5 of you come here to ride, but we get 10 times as much $, we make twice as much and have less crowds, less garbage, less pollution, less competition for our recreational resources...none of the metrics are ever represented in any Dept of Tourism Economic impact study, yet have profound affects on our daily experience.

    "I pay so I want my trails ready!" Go hump a porcupine with that nonsense.
    Read comprehension issues perhaps? I was saying that if I drive to a destination and pay money to ride the trails, yes I expect they are maintained and ready to ride. I ride KT or Millstone a half dozen times a year and feel no obligation to drive up there to do trail maintenance. As stated above, I do plenty of trail work on the trails I ride the other 150 days of the season.

    Secondly, your views on tourism as it relates to jobs and the economy is myopic. Northern NE is heavily dependent on tourism dollars whether it be from mountain biking, skiing, paddling, hiking, leaf peeping...whatever. These areas that stand to benefit from mountain bike growth are already driven by tourism. So many jobs are tied directly or indirectly to tourism -- small businesses like ski shops, bike shops, restaurants. I can assure you the majority of people that own those types of businesses aren't getting uber rich. We own businesses like that because we realized in our late 20's that in order to live up here and not wait tables or work at a gas station we had to find something else. Not to mention all the businesses indirectly tied to tourism -- landscaping/property maintenance, construction, print shops, real estate, plumbers, electricians, guys who chop and sell firewood. I could go on forever. What do you think people would be doing for work up here without it? It would be filled with ghost towns.


    Lastly, the biggest sense of entitlement I can see in this thread is the people who resist the growth of the sport because they don't want other people on their trails. Yeah, I get it, not everyone that rides the trails is going to help with maintenance. Same as it ever was. But if more people are riding, it is far more likely we'll have more help maintaining our trails.
    All good things in all good time

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    no bettah time to start lernin than now you entitled jabroni.
    You are the coolest friggin guy on the internet.
    All good things in all good time

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaboom View Post
    Read comprehension issues perhaps? I was saying that if I drive to a destination and pay money to ride the trails, yes I expect they are maintained and ready to ride. I ride KT or Millstone a half dozen times a year and feel no obligation to drive up there to do trail maintenance. As stated above, I do plenty of trail work on the trails I ride the other 150 days of the season.

    Secondly, your views on tourism as it relates to jobs and the economy is myopic. Northern NE is heavily dependent on tourism dollars whether it be from mountain biking, skiing, paddling, hiking, leaf peeping...whatever. These areas that stand to benefit from mountain bike growth are already driven by tourism. So many jobs are tied directly or indirectly to tourism -- small businesses like ski shops, bike shops, restaurants. I can assure you the majority of people that own those types of businesses aren't getting uber rich. We own businesses like that because we realized in our late 20's that in order to live up here and not wait tables or work at a gas station we had to find something else. Not to mention all the businesses indirectly tied to tourism -- landscaping/property maintenance, construction, print shops, real estate, plumbers, electricians, guys who chop and sell firewood. I could go on forever. What do you think people would be doing for work up here without it? It would be filled with ghost towns.


    Lastly, the biggest sense of entitlement I can see in this thread is the people who resist the growth of the sport because they don't want other people on their trails. Yeah, I get it, not everyone that rides the trails is going to help with maintenance. Same as it ever was. But if more people are riding, it is far more likely we'll have more help maintaining our trails.
    You're right, New England and Vermont have been developing a tourism based economy for some time. Maybe that's why the Gap between wealthy and lower income folks is growing faster in Vt then any other state as of last year. Bike shops, ski shops, restaurants. A very low percentage of them make much money. And they provide really really bad jobs.

    Your thinking that it's either tourism or nothing is the problem, and representative of someone who is invested in that economy. I agree that Vermont's life quality resources are being sold, and there is too much momentum to ever revers that. My point is more that we should get enough money out of it so the jobs it creates can actually provide livable wages, and limit visits/provide enough funds to reach some level of sustainability in the quality of those resources for residents who, though our tax dollars, provide so much of the basic infrastructure and services tourist utilize, and deal with so many intangible impacts in our backyards while you visit.

    Name one place where tourism has been heavily developed in the WORLD where the lower classes of earners have been provided employment that has lifted them up to the middle and upper class. You end up with glamorous main streets, and slums a few miles away. Tourism consolidates wealth on the backs of the working poor. Try all you want to justify it, but that is just the facts of the economics of tourism in general, and the growth of economic inequality in Vt is proof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaboom View Post
    You are the coolest friggin guy on the internet.
    Rog, crank up the drag, he's taking too much line...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Your thinking that it's either tourism or nothing is the problem, and representative of someone who is invested in that economy.
    That's not quite what I'm saying. The point is that there a tons of jobs that aren't necessarily part of the service/tourism industry that are directly impacted by and profitable because of tourism. The fact that some people in that type of economy don't attain upward mobility is just an underlying fact of capitalism in general and not exclusive to tourism or tourism related economic areas.
    All good things in all good time

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Rog, crank up the drag, he's taking too much line...
    got it.

    holy $hit today is my 10 year anniversary wrenching bikes and mounting skis for the same company full time year round with full bennies for my family and 7 weeks paid vacation. 10 years of not missing working for an IBD one single itty bit

    off to sell a hybrid!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    OK. Then you were likely unemployed for a month on either end of that. Plus I doubt you had health insurance. Paid vacation? How much of that was tips? What are you making for the summer? By the end of the year you'll make what...35K with no benefits by working 2 or 3 jobs throughout the year. Proves my point. Plus you have to work for SMR, a place that is whoring out one of the most beautiful places in the state with million dollar condos and private country clubs. The development there is the best example of grotesque land development in the most gaudy and exclusionist way possible by a corporation consistently ranked as one of the most corrupt and detrimental in the world year in year out. Sounds like you're winning. :$
    Ill make 40k(5k which is tips) I had no time off between jobs this year. minus what is now 1800 for health insurance(use to be 1100 **** the ACA). I work way less hours in the winter than the summer(my typical week is 25 hours of work in the winter).

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaboom View Post
    That's not quite what I'm saying. The point is that there a tons of jobs that aren't necessarily part of the service/tourism industry that are directly impacted by and profitable because of tourism. The fact that some people in that type of economy don't attain upward mobility is just an underlying fact of capitalism in general and not exclusive to tourism or tourism related economic areas.
    I disagree. Economies based on production of goods generally give working class folks opportunities to elevate themselves through skills and expertise learned on the job even without degrees. This conversation could easily meander into a conversation about globalism. Raping the land of it's resources has never been a path to sustainable economies. Our recreational resources are no different. I think it's great that people in NH feel like they don't need to share their biking for it's potential to create some part time jobs that keep them locked in poverty. More jobs is only good if they are good jobs. More $#!t work at the price of your weekend recreational experience sure ain't worth it in my book.

    We can agree on the fact that a system based on profits above all is a negative force in the world. Why so eager to put Mountain Biking under the capitalist umbrella?

    Just let it exist without having to grow it and promote it. If that isn't happening now in NH, and yet there are plenty of places to ride, that kind of illustrates it is doing just fine. Just because you can't pay someone for access to all the trails doesn't make it bad. It's clear that some people think that is what keeps it good. From my experience in the more developed areas of Vt...they are correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    I disagree. Economies based on production of goods generally give working class folks opportunities to elevate themselves through skills and expertise learned on the job even without degrees. This conversation could easily meander into a conversation about globalism. Raping the land of it's resources has never been a path to sustainable economies. Our recreational resources are no different. I think it's great that people in NH feel like they don't need to share their biking for it's potential to create some part time jobs that keep them locked in poverty. More jobs is only good if they are good jobs. More $#!t work at the price of your weekend recreational experience sure ain't worth it in my book.

    We can agree on the fact that a system based on profits above all is a negative force in the world. Why so eager to put Mountain Biking under the capitalist umbrella?

    Just let it exist without having to grow it and promote it. If that isn't happening now in NH, and yet there are plenty of places to ride, that kind of illustrates it is doing just fine. Just because you can't pay someone for access to all the trails doesn't make it bad. It's clear that some people think that is what keeps it good. From my experience in the more developed areas of Vt...they are correct.
    dave, yer nailing it. fkna!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
    Ill make 40k(5k which is tips) I had no time off between jobs this year. minus what is now 1800 for health insurance(use to be 1100 **** the ACA). I work way less hours in the winter than the summer(my typical week is 25 hours of work in the winter).
    how much of that are you banking away?

    that's good dough for what yer doin and how yer living, imo.

    i ski bummed (lived ski town winters from age 18 when i left hs till i was 28. valet/bellman for 8 of those winters and made enough money in 5 months that working in summer was pretty much an option. i always took a month off in spring to road trip out west or something and took a month off in fall to do whatevs. worked nights and skied 7 days a week. worked summers wrenching bikes, landscaping, construction, gardening/stone work, restaurant/valet depending on the summer (mixed it up) and was able to put enough dough away to start buying rental properties at 28 that allows me to do what i do today and will continue to do till i'm 59.5 when i can start paying myself from my annuity and rental income. thank god for ski bumming. without it i may have spent way too much on higher edu (college) and woulda had student loans which woulda led to car payments, credit card payments, ect ect ect. fvck that noise.

    figured we needed a TR drift.

    save yer pennies josh!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by radair View Post
    CO kicks ass. Dave, if you didn't find great riding there you should have kept looking.
    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    No one here, including myself, has stated the riding in CO is better. In fact, I personally prefer New England riding overall and also consider myself a man of the forest rather than desert.

    The post was simply questioning why NH in particular has less publicized trail systems which led me to believe there is a lack of trail development in the state. I see it as vastly untapped potential. I referenced Colorado, maintaining that there is an impressive dedication at the town and county levels to build and maintain trails. This is something I simply don't see happening in NH or other NE states (I could be dead wrong, but it was an educated guess).

    Honestly though, it is pathetically short-sighted of several posters here to presume things about Colorado trails without actually diving into them. There are some amazing, deep forest singletrack segments and there are some awesome hidden gems that no one rides, much like the heralded trails spoken of in NH. If you come to ride in Colorado for a couple weeks and don't think it's awesome, you are in serious denial and should probably question your dedication to MTB.

    I am a New Englander through and through, and will more likely side with those that like to hate on the "rad" nature of Colorado or whatever. But with all this short-sighted and presumptuous banter, some of the NE posters in this thread are sounding like the real db's of the conversation. /rant
    Of course there is. Colorado is over 104,000 square miles of land. It's 1.45 times the size of all of New England. There's plenty of wonderful places to ride, places with great trails and astounding natural beauty.

    Let's look more closely though. Vast areas of Colorado are a mountain biking wasteland, while others are the domain of tourists, the wealthy, or a very small number of locals who are working service jobs or for oil and trucking companies. You can live nearly anywhere in New England and be a stones throw from countless miles of fun trails, and I really didn't see that as the case in Colorado. Part of the reason I passed through there was to visit friends who had relocated to the Fort Collins area. I nearly fell over when I learned the nearest decent trails were 30 minutes away. How could that be? I was in one of the Meccas, the motherlands of good mountain biking, and here were avid mountain bikers despondently telling me that the nearest trail network worth a shit was a half hour drive. One guy said he had a much greater amount of fun, accessible riding near him when he lived in Phoenix, Arizona. He expressed a desire to move west of Denver, closer to Golden. Apparently that put you on the doorstep to the good riding, much more like what he used to have. Unfortunately that was a desirable area, and the cost of housing was absolutely out of control. Despite making a (by my simple standards) good living, it was almost totally beyond his reach.

    Someone once told me that living in much of Colorado was like living at a truck stop. They were right, excepting the city I suppose. That's like living in a city, even worse.

    When you look at the entirety of Colorado, all 104,000 square miles, they don't have anything approaching the type of trail building and development that goes on throughout New England. I don't know a single person in the North East who's six hours from the nearest lift access dowhill park, like much of that state. I can hardly think of someone 30 minutes from the nearest decent trails for that matter. If only they had it as good as us, poor bastards.

    Beyond that, who's short sighted? Who's presumptuous? Tourist economies are horrible things for the local inhabitants. DaveVT pretty much put his foot in that argument's ass, and we thank him for doing it. We want good wages, and good benefits. We don't want to wait tables for arrogant tourists. Trail building in New Hampshire is very much a take the bull by the horns type of situation. If YOU want to change how things are, or how they're done around here, go get your tools and get at it. Talk to the town or talk to NEMBA. I'm sure you can find a place willing to let you build. Just don't be surprised when they balk at efforts to drive bike traffic through the roof in the name of economic stimulation. We're a bunch of curmudgeonly Yankees, and we kinda like things how they are - quietly progressing under the stewardship of locals.

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    Boom!!!

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    how much of that are you banking away?

    that's good dough for what yer doin and how yer living, imo.

    i ski bummed (lived ski town winters from age 18 when i left hs till i was 28. valet/bellman for 8 of those winters and made enough money in 5 months that working in summer was pretty much an option. i always took a month off in spring to road trip out west or something and took a month off in fall to do whatevs. worked nights and skied 7 days a week. worked summers wrenching bikes, landscaping, construction, gardening/stone work, restaurant/valet depending on the summer (mixed it up) and was able to put enough dough away to start buying rental properties at 28 that allows me to do what i do today and will continue to do till i'm 59.5 when i can start paying myself from my annuity and rental income. thank god for ski bumming. without it i may have spent way too much on higher edu (college) and woulda had student loans which woulda led to car payments, credit card payments, ect ect ect. fvck that noise.

    figured we needed a TR drift.

    save yer pennies josh!!!
    Sadly no road trip out west this spring.......I have well paying no tourist based job in the summer. buying a house with in the next year(in cash with my soon to be wife) with plans to rent the empty rooms. No debt is the way to live.

    Also plans for at least a pump track and maybe some small MTB loops if we get enough land.

    So there is loud mouth poster who honestly I do not agree with but have a ton of respect for who recently got fired from his trail building company for the post he makes everywhere and the fact that VMBA does want him to bring him down. Say what you want about the SMBC but they have not and will not cave to VMBA for the 15000k they want from us and relativety well off and numerous membership. VMBA is trying to strong arm every club in the state into joining them, and some of the club's member that voted against VMBA membership have lost there position on their respective clubs boards. Just ask the FOTW board member who are no longer board members because of voting against joining VMBA.

    New Hampshire has one thing going for it, that it does not have a VMBA like organization strong arming groups of people to join them.

    Threads like this make me realize just how lucky i was to start MTBing in Pittsburgh where the local club PORC is boths stronger in numbers of people(mostly due to population growth), and influence and at the same time since pittsburgh is not a tourist town the trail were built for locals by local and they rock. Some day they may be destination but right now they are still fairly unknown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
    Ill make 40k(5k which is tips) I had no time off between jobs this year. minus what is now 1800 for health insurance(use to be 1100 **** the ACA). I work way less hours in the winter than the summer(my typical week is 25 hours of work in the winter).
    $1800 a year? Is that through Catamount?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    $1800 a year? Is that through Catamount?
    I make to much money to qualify for Medicaid though catamount as a single person married I think I qualify again.

    With that said free health care is not free so even you are getting free health care someone else is paying for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
    Sadly no road trip out west this spring.......I have well paying no tourist based job in the summer. buying a house with in the next year(in cash with my soon to be wife) with plans to rent the empty rooms. No debt is the way to live.

    Also plans for at least a pump track and maybe some small MTB loops if we get enough land.
    good goin man. i wish you the best.

    So there is loud mouth poster who honestly I do not agree with but have a ton of respect for who recently got fired from his trail building company for the post he makes everywhere and the fact that VMBA does want him to bring him down. Say what you want about the SMBC but they have not and will not cave to VMBA for the 15000k they want from us and relativety well off and numerous membership. VMBA is trying to strong arm every club in the state into joining them, and some of the club's member that voted against VMBA membership have lost there position on their respective clubs boards. Just ask the FOTW board member who are no longer board members because of voting against joining VMBA.

    New Hampshire has one thing going for it, that it does not have a VMBA like organization strong arming groups of people to join them.
    YIKES.

    Threads like this make me realize just how lucky i was to start MTBing in Pittsburgh where the local club PORC is boths stronger in numbers of people(mostly due to population growth), and influence and at the same time since pittsburgh is not a tourist town the trail were built for locals by local and they rock. Some day they may be destination but right now they are still fairly unknown.
    PA is the mtb goods. i never minded making numerous 10 hour drives to ride there for a week at a time. my heart is with blue knob and laurel, but i most certainly enjoyed linking boyce, frick?, and that other park in the burgh.

    fkna lovely morning for a ride today. froze my a$$ off riding the 6 road miles up to the mtn to ride, but the ride on trail to get back home was warm spring bliss

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    Read this in the Waterbury Record today. Peter Miller, Vermonter and artist struck a chord. Vermont icon has had it - Waterbury Record | An online edition of the Waterbury Record newspaper: Local News
    Last edited by DaveVt; 05-26-2015 at 05:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bad news View Post
    Of course there is. Colorado is over 104,000 square miles of land. It's 1.45 times the size of all of New England. There's plenty of wonderful places to ride, places with great trails and astounding natural beauty.

    Let's look more closely though. Vast areas of Colorado are a mountain biking wasteland, while others are the domain of tourists, the wealthy, or a very small number of locals who are working service jobs or for oil and trucking companies. You can live nearly anywhere in New England and be a stones throw from countless miles of fun trails, and I really didn't see that as the case in Colorado. Part of the reason I passed through there was to visit friends who had relocated to the Fort Collins area. I nearly fell over when I learned the nearest decent trails were 30 minutes away. How could that be? I was in one of the Meccas, the motherlands of good mountain biking, and here were avid mountain bikers despondently telling me that the nearest trail network worth a shit was a half hour drive. One guy said he had a much greater amount of fun, accessible riding near him when he lived in Phoenix, Arizona. He expressed a desire to move west of Denver, closer to Golden. Apparently that put you on the doorstep to the good riding, much more like what he used to have. Unfortunately that was a desirable area, and the cost of housing was absolutely out of control. Despite making a (by my simple standards) good living, it was almost totally beyond his reach.

    Someone once told me that living in much of Colorado was like living at a truck stop. They were right, excepting the city I suppose. That's like living in a city, even worse.

    When you look at the entirety of Colorado, all 104,000 square miles, they don't have anything approaching the type of trail building and development that goes on throughout New England. I don't know a single person in the North East who's six hours from the nearest lift access dowhill park, like much of that state. I can hardly think of someone 30 minutes from the nearest decent trails for that matter. If only they had it as good as us, poor bastards.

    Beyond that, who's short sighted? Who's presumptuous? Tourist economies are horrible things for the local inhabitants. DaveVT pretty much put his foot in that argument's ass, and we thank him for doing it. We want good wages, and good benefits. We don't want to wait tables for arrogant tourists. Trail building in New Hampshire is very much a take the bull by the horns type of situation. If YOU want to change how things are, or how they're done around here, go get your tools and get at it. Talk to the town or talk to NEMBA. I'm sure you can find a place willing to let you build. Just don't be surprised when they balk at efforts to drive bike traffic through the roof in the name of economic stimulation. We're a bunch of curmudgeonly Yankees, and we kinda like things how they are - quietly progressing under the stewardship of locals.
    ^^^ What he said.

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    I disagree. Economies based on production of goods generally give working class folks opportunities to elevate themselves through skills and expertise learned on the job even without degrees. This conversation could easily meander into a conversation about globalism. Raping the land of it's resources has never been a path to sustainable economies. Our recreational resources are no different. I think it's great that people in NH feel like they don't need to share their biking for it's potential to create some part time jobs that keep them locked in poverty. More jobs is only good if they are good jobs. More $#!t work at the price of your weekend recreational experience sure ain't worth it in my book.

    We can agree on the fact that a system based on profits above all is a negative force in the world. Why so eager to put Mountain Biking under the capitalist umbrella?

    Just let it exist without having to grow it and promote it. If that isn't happening now in NH, and yet there are plenty of places to ride, that kind of illustrates it is doing just fine. Just because you can't pay someone for access to all the trails doesn't make it bad. It's clear that some people think that is what keeps it good. From my experience in the more developed areas of Vt...they are correct.
    I guess there is a certain amount of disconnect with this conversation. The underlying reality here is that without tourism and the jobs directly or indirectly related to it, our northern NE economy is absolutely nothing. There is nothing left up here. There is no industry to speak of. Without tourism we wouldn't even be having this conversation. We'd be talking about this area like it was something out of Infinite Jest; a barren waste land, literally, filled with the metro area's garbage. I know that is extreme but I'm not sure how else to make the point. There isn't enough money, or interest, to go around without the tourism dollars. So we need to make the best of it. I understand your point about wage/wealth inequality, but if there are no wages to be made then everyone leaves. You would be hard pressed to live where you do (as would I) without tourism, whether you like or not. Expose the tourists and seize their dollars. You don't have to wait tables to make it. Trust me, I'm living proof. You do have to make sacrifices (trail access, dealing with m*******s etc.). The jobs you are after are in urban areas. So you either deal with the "tourists" (city/suburbia living) where your residence is and work a well paying job where you travel to the destination on weekends, or you find your niche and make money off of the tourists in the place(s) where you actually want to live.
    All good things in all good time

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaboom View Post
    I guess there is a certain amount of disconnect with this conversation. The underlying reality here is that without tourism and the jobs directly or indirectly related to it, our northern NE economy is absolutely nothing. There is nothing left up here. There is no industry to speak of. Without tourism we wouldn't even be having this conversation. We'd be talking about this area like it was something out of Infinite Jest; a barren waste land, literally, filled with the metro area's garbage. I know that is extreme but I'm not sure how else to make the point. There isn't enough money, or interest, to go around without the tourism dollars. So we need to make the best of it. I understand your point about wage/wealth inequality, but if there are no wages to be made then everyone leaves. You would be hard pressed to live where you do (as would I) without tourism, whether you like or not. Expose the tourists and seize their dollars. You don't have to wait tables to make it. Trust me, I'm living proof. You do have to make sacrifices (trail access, dealing with m*******s etc.). The jobs you are after are in urban areas. So you either deal with the "tourists" (city/suburbia living) where your residence is and work a well paying job where you travel to the destination on weekends, or you find your niche and make money off of the tourists in the place(s) where you actually want to live.
    Bull$#!t. As I said this quickly turns into a conversation about federal subsidies, trade agreements, and globalism....but more importantly there you go again saying "This is the only way"..... or else "there would be a wasteland". Classic stuff. Whenever someone talks that way it is because they have an agenda, or don't want to face their own moral compromises.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Bull$#!t. As I said this quickly turns into a conversation about federal subsidies, trade agreements, and globalism....but more importantly there you go again saying "This is the only way"..... or else "there would be a wasteland". Classic stuff. Whenever someone talks that way it is because they have an agenda, or don't want to face their own moral compromises.
    But dood, east burke wasn't even incorporated till kingdom trails was invented, DUH!

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    I grew up in a tourist town and understand that economic model. I got a degree, and moved to NYC to get one o them good payin jobs... That really sucked. It took me a long hard search to get to be an engineer in a small town.

    I agree with DaveVT on this - tourism is not the ONLY way. That doesn't mean that small tourism is entirely bad, but going all in on tourism really sucks the life out of a community eventually.

  112. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Bull$#!t. As I said this quickly turns into a conversation about federal subsidies, trade agreements, and globalism....but more importantly there you go again saying "This is the only way"..... or else "there would be a wasteland". Classic stuff. Whenever someone talks that way it is because they have an agenda, or don't want to face their own moral compromises.
    You're right, it's not the only way. But in reality the situation we face is directly connected to a tourism economy. That's just the facts. And I'm not saying you have to go "all in" and turn into East Burke or Killignton or North Conway etc., I'm advocating growth of MTB in certain areas in order to sort of tag along with the outdoor activities, like skiing, that already draw tourism to the area.

    What other industry do you see pumping dollars into the economy up here? Where are these other jobs going to come from at this point?
    All good things in all good time

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaboom View Post
    You're right, it's not the only way. But in reality the situation we face is directly connected to a tourism economy. That's just the facts. And I'm not saying you have to go "all in" and turn into East Burke or Killignton or North Conway etc., I'm advocating growth of MTB in certain areas in order to sort of tag along with the outdoor activities, like skiing, that already draw tourism to the area.

    What other industry do you see pumping dollars into the economy up here? Where are these other jobs going to come from at this point?
    The federal government needs to stop investing in war and start investing in infrastructure. We need a seriously more progressive tax rate. Public works projects will put people to work earning real money. We need to reconsider our trade agreements and subsidies and make locally produced goods competitive. Major carbon tax would do it. Basil from mexico should not be cheaper then basil from New England right now....but it is. Only thanks to cheap petroleum products....that we subsidize. The whole ball of yarn needs to be unwound.

  114. #114
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    Interesting discussion here. NH definitely has some great areas to ride, lots of dedicated mtn biking clubs, trail builders, etc.. That said, it took 100s of emails, and a mad push to re-open singletrack closed at BB after logging. DRED had deemed the trails as excess, there was a fireroad next to them. Even when the state does nothing to maintain the trails, they still play big man in charge.
    beaver hunt

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowdrifter View Post
    Interesting discussion here. NH definitely has some great areas to ride, lots of dedicated mtn biking clubs, trail builders, etc.. That said, it took 100s of emails, and a mad push to re-open singletrack closed at BB after logging. DRED had deemed the trails as excess, there was a fireroad next to them. Even when the state does nothing to maintain the trails, they still play big man in charge.
    didn't it help that the re-opened hemlocks were discovered or seen on some old maps as being a trail or trails back in the day?

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    Yes interesting point. To mizzabooms point, BB is missing out on extra revenue by not embracing the potential of opening its park to accommodate different groups. While I tend to get pissed at the hoof prints I see on hemlock. I realize it's not the horse owners fault for trotting where they please. BB is happy to let them trot off wherever they would like as long as they pay their fee at the gate. It's 10,000 acres that park. Why not make it more accommodating to multiple groups. Mtbers would do all the work there if they could. I also understand that the park is probably grossly underfunded.
    So, what's the point of my dribble. I'll tell you. BB could do better for BB if it wasn't being pulled down by the socialist model of the federalist park system. Think of it as states rights and article 10 of the constitution Davevt. Govt money and infrastructure aren't the solution at this point, they are the problem. So to mizzabooms point, if tourism is what you have to work with now, then that is the path you need to take. Think of it as progressive capitalism. No shame in that and no oil involved. If you have have a low paying job and you are trapped in a tourist community, there are 3 courses of action you could take .
    1) tell Darwin I say hello.
    2) enjoy the view
    3) move..........

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    bear brook's trails don't need more traffic. they are fine the way they are. more traffic=more erosion and need for more trail work. nemba's doing a fine job in there. a nice slow work in progress. and i think the multiple user groups enjoy it just fine from what i've seen over the years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alvinnf View Post
    Yes interesting point. To mizzabooms point, BB is missing out on extra revenue by not embracing the potential of opening its park to accommodate different groups. While I tend to get pissed at the hoof prints I see on hemlock. I realize it's not the horse owners fault for trotting where they please. BB is happy to let them trot off wherever they would like as long as they pay their fee at the gate. It's 10,000 acres that park. Why not make it more accommodating to multiple groups. Mtbers would do all the work there if they could. I also understand that the park is probably grossly underfunded.
    So, what's the point of my dribble. I'll tell you. BB could do better for BB if it wasn't being pulled down by the socialist model of the federalist park system. Think of it as states rights and article 10 of the constitution Davevt. Govt money and infrastructure aren't the solution at this point, they are the problem. So to mizzabooms point, if tourism is what you have to work with now, then that is the path you need to take. Think of it as progressive capitalism. No shame in that and no oil involved. If you have have a low paying job and you are trapped in a tourist community, there are 3 courses of action you could take .
    1) tell Darwin I say hello.
    2) enjoy the view
    3) move..........
    The views are nice. No oil in tourism. HahahaHaHAHAhAh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    Plenty of dedicated folks building and maintaining trail here. More trail than you could ride in a lifetime once you find it (adventure)

    In plymouth mass right now visiting the inlaws on our way to the vinyard and got out for an hour and a half ride late this afternoon before dinner. Thru a leg over the fatbike not knowing what i'd find. Headed out to the main road and immediately saw a trail heading into the woods and didn't find my way back out till an hour and a half later. Amazing. I coulda ridden for days it seemed. No maps, no gps, no strava, no beta, just follow my front wheel and explore. Adventure. Can't wait to take it further.
    Meant to comment on this a while ago. Think you'd be throwing a leg over your fatbike if it weren't for the big markets you were complaining about?

    They bring in the dough that leads to technology expansion, that helps to popularize things like the fatbike, that eventually leads to yankee curmudgeons to start riding them despite their dedication to buck tourism and deny growth. The way she goes. Your adventure sounds like it was pretty rad, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    Meant to comment on this a while ago. Think you'd be throwing a leg over your fatbike if it weren't for the big markets you were complaining about?

    They bring in the dough that leads to technology expansion, that helps to popularize things like the fatbike, that eventually leads to yankee curmudgeons to start riding them despite their dedication to buck tourism and deny growth. The way she goes. Your adventure sounds like it was pretty rad, though.
    no, it was dirtbikes that created the adventure and seemingly endless trails that i found. wicked fun on a fatbike. straight up straight down wicked steep ANTI-IMBA trails at their finest. not the way she goes, sorry chad

  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    bear brook's trails don't need more traffic. they are fine the way they are. more traffic=more erosion and need for more trail work. nemba's doing a fine job in there. a nice slow work in progress. and i think the multiple user groups enjoy it just fine from what i've seen over the years.
    I tend to agree with you. Doesn't really bother me either way. But, framed in the context of this discussion there certainly is room for improvement. Whether it be expanding the services of the park or even making the park a more profitable entity. For us as mtbers profitability is not the end all be all of our exhistance, the next bike tends to be. But for this discussion BB seems to be a prime location for some improvement. There is tremendous potential there and it just seems somewhat stagnant. maybe the rub for expanding mtb is due to the fact that most of us have enjoyed it fee free from its inception.

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    there are fees. i pay them multiple times a year. 4 bux per person per car. or a season pass of 60 bux or so. well worth the price to enjoy 20-30 mile big single loop uncrowded rides thru close to 11,000 acres. sooooooooooooomuch better than places like KT where yer squiggling around in lil circles with 4 way trail junctions every 1/2-3/4 of a mile littered with jolly quebexicans with the volume cranked to 11.

    there is tremendous potential there, so much so that it'd be scary to see it get much better. scary in a good way.

    bear brook is drastically improved compared to when i started riding there a coupla decades ago. stagnant? work gets done by mtb'ers for mtb'ers each year.

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    From Southern Nh NEMBA: "Come out and celebrate National Trails Day on Saturday June 6th. We will be doing trail work in Bear Brook State Park. Plan to meet at the hiker/biker lot off of Podunk Road at 8:45 AM. We will be moving to the work site at 9. Plan on working until about noon or 1 PM. Bring gloves, water and bug spray. If weather permits we will do an intermediate paced ride after the work. Bring lunch if you are planning on riding. We have a few projects in the approval process, so the work may include a bridge installation or trail re-routes and re-opening a trail that was closed with the logging. Hope to see you there!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by dudeist View Post
    From Southern Nh NEMBA: "Come out and celebrate National Trails Day on Saturday June 6th. We will be doing trail work in Bear Brook State Park. Plan to meet at the hiker/biker lot off of Podunk Road at 8:45 AM. We will be moving to the work site at 9. Plan on working until about noon or 1 PM. Bring gloves, water and bug spray. If weather permits we will do an intermediate paced ride after the work. Bring lunch if you are planning on riding. We have a few projects in the approval process, so the work may include a bridge installation or trail re-routes and re-opening a trail that was closed with the logging. Hope to see you there!"
    well there^^^^^^^^^^^^^^you have it. nice steady work in progress.

    thanx for posting!

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    But dood, east burke wasn't even incorporated till kingdom trails was invented, DUH!
    Why do you have to be such a dink all the time? There used to be industry up here. Guess what? It's gone. East Burke wasn't built on mountain biking, but it certainly thrives on it now.
    All good things in all good time

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaboom View Post
    Why do you have to be such a dink all the time? There used to be industry up here. Guess what? It's gone. East Burke wasn't built on mountain biking, but it certainly thrives on it now.
    all the time? no, just some of the time. hava sense of humor, would ya?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaboom View Post
    Why do you have to be such a dink all the time? There used to be industry up here. Guess what? It's gone. East Burke wasn't built on mountain biking, but it certainly thrives on it now.
    Dink, goon, troll, etc. etc. This ain't the only place on the interwebs you'll see it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    Dink, goon, troll, etc. etc. This ain't the only place on the interwebs you'll see it.
    sho nuff, the webz is serious bidness! buyer beware

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaboom View Post
    Why do you have to be such a dink all the time? There used to be industry up here. Guess what? It's gone. East Burke wasn't built on mountain biking, but it certainly thrives on it now.
    You should go to Stowe right now. They are trying to make a serious play to be a kingdom trails type destination. Go out to the pub of choice on a week night just after dark and start poking around to find some local MTBers...some that have been around for a while. Ask them what they think. I'm not talking about the new kids who rolled into to town any time in the last 8 years or so. Find some people who have been there since before the club. I don't think you will find much support for the current mission the club is on. If the price of development is the soul of the riding in the town I live....move along.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    You should go to Stowe right now. They are trying to make a serious play to be a kingdom trails type destination. Go out to the pub of choice on a week night just after dark and start poking around to find some local MTBers...some that have been around for a while. Ask them what they think. I'm not talking about the new kids who rolled into to town any time in the last 8 years or so. Find some people who have been there since before the club. I don't think you will find much support for the current mission the club is on. If the price of development is the soul of the riding in the town I live....move along.
    The old school Stowe guys are worried about tourism related to mountain biking? I really cannot help but laugh. You live in Vail East and are worried about some extra tourism from mountain biking? Maybe you should move to Troy or Coventry...avoid all that tourist traffic.
    All good things in all good time

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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    Dink, goon, troll, etc. etc. This ain't the only place on the interwebs you'll see it.
    Yeah, I'm well aware. But this board is generally friendly, helpful, and way less a magnet for trolls than the majority of other boards I frequent. This guy thinks he's being funny (I don't think he is actually "trolling"), when 90% of the time his posts are douchey and condescending.
    All good things in all good time

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaboom View Post
    Yeah, I'm well aware. But this board is generally friendly, helpful, and way less a magnet for trolls than the majority of other boards I frequent. This guy thinks he's being funny (I don't think he is actually "trolling"), when 90% of the time his posts are douchey and condescending.
    take it how you choose. you'll get no sympathy from me

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    take it how you choose. you'll get no sympathy from me
    Well sh!t Rog, I was hoping you'd send me some flowers in the mail.
    All good things in all good time

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaboom View Post
    Yeah, I'm well aware. But this board is generally friendly, helpful, and way less a magnet for trolls than the majority of other boards I frequent. This guy thinks he's being funny (I don't think he is actually "trolling"), when 90% of the time his posts are douchey and condescending.
    Agreed. And I should actually specify the meaning of my reply: this isn't the only forum on the interwebs that you'll see it from him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaboom View Post
    The old school Stowe guys are worried about tourism related to mountain biking? I really cannot help but laugh. You live in Vail East and are worried about some extra tourism from mountain biking? Maybe you should move to Troy or Coventry...avoid all that tourist traffic.
    What's funny. The trails there used to be rider built and too hard for most people. The club took care of that. Now what was the summer sanctuary from the tourons is over run by them. Troy? Coventry? I moved to Northfield and started building. I'm all set now...sort of like NH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    What's funny. The trails there used to be rider built and too hard for most people. The club took care of that. Now what was the summer sanctuary from the tourons is over run by them. Troy? Coventry? I moved to Northfield and started building. I'm all set now...sort of like NH.
    I find it funny that people that live in Stowe are somehow upset about what might be an uptick in tourism from mountain biking. Stowe is in the top 3 biggest tourist traps in VT in my experience, and has been for a long time. Seems like if someone had a problem with that type of living experience and economy they wouldn't have moved there in the first place (and I don't mean you specifically).
    All good things in all good time

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    What's funny. The trails there used to be rider built and too hard for most people. The club took care of that. Now what was the summer sanctuary from the tourons is over run by them. Troy? Coventry? I moved to Northfield and started building. I'm all set now...sort of like NH.
    dumb'n it down yo.

    you got it real good, dave. if yer ever over coast way, lets pedal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    What's funny. The trails there used to be rider built and too hard for most people. The club took care of that. Now what was the summer sanctuary from the tourons is over run by them. Troy? Coventry? I moved to Northfield and started building. I'm all set now...sort of like NH.
    I think the old stowe is getting rediscovered. Inburno, T and T, Skunk Hollow, Waterworks, school street all have number of local who still ride them. , and since noone wants to ride it anyways its not like it going to get big. The I just rode is beyond the skill level of most when dry due to large rock slab roll down. Will not find it on a map, but it really is not that hard to find.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    Agreed. And I should actually specify the meaning of my reply: this isn't the only forum on the interwebs that you'll see it from him.
    Oh grow an e-pair, would ya coloRADo?

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    What sort of void do you have in life if you have to fill it with being an a$$-hole to people on a mountain bike message board?

    You must be a joy to ride with, Rog. You give chipmunks the finger -- just for funsies -- when you ride by them on the trail?
    All good things in all good time

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    you and hog breath make a puuuuurfect pair

    the ambiguously gay duo episodes - Bing Videos

    :-*

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    A homophobe to boot. You're winning the internet right now Rog!
    All good things in all good time

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaboom View Post
    A homophobe to boot. You're winning the internet right now Rog!
    yer eating this stuff up. i shoulda added a "nttawwt".

    you don't hafta be a homophobe to lol at those mini toons. just thot you and hogbrokeback might enjoy them

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaboom View Post
    I find it funny that people that live in Stowe are somehow upset about what might be an uptick in tourism from mountain biking. Stowe is in the top 3 biggest tourist traps in VT in my experience, and has been for a long time. Seems like if someone had a problem with that type of living experience and economy they wouldn't have moved there in the first place (and I don't mean you specifically).
    It's true the town in general does not represent Vermont. Personally, I moved there for 2 things. I wanted to learn how to ski Pow and Mansfield is by far the best Mtn in Vermont for off-piste. Also, while living in Richmond my first year here I would ride there often and discovered a rider driven scene, and a network of primitive, technical trails that had nothing to do with tourists. It wasn't until after we continued to grow the network that people took notice and thought they could make money off of it. That's when I left. I move the Northfield and feel like I moved to Vt for the first time.

    The riding scene is Stowe was roots far longer then the town was. I feel like I got to be a part of the original development of the area, much like the orgianal members of the MMSC who developed the skiing on the Mtn. Just like the skiing, it's getting packaged and destroyed for a few pennies when the original mission was just to have fun stuff to do where we lived. Can't argue with the facts. My favorite story about the Stowe MTB Club happened last year. A friend was up riding on some of the oldest single track in town when he came across a group. It was the President and board of the club. "Where are we?" they asked. Says it all right there. They have no clue. That birds overcooked up there. Nothing to be done about it now. I'll sneak into town on occasion to hit up the old, unmarked illegal trails I have been continuing to help with since I left....avoid Cady Hill at all costs...and leave. The shear numbers turning out have already lost access to 2 areas and fragmented what was the best ride in town. More to come I'm sure as I hear Top Notch wants to build a connector trail to some more ancient trail that crosses private land in many areas.

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    no illegal trailbuilding, dave. you know better. that's far worse than killing kittens (finger mustache)

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    More to come I'm sure as I hear Top Notch wants to build a connector trail to some more ancient trail that crosses private land in many areas.
    ???

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    ahaha. Virtually every trail network Vt was started, completely built illegally.

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    Often time in addition to the big public trail days NEMBA does (like the one coming up Saturday June 6th at 9am from the Hiker/Biker lot) there are a TON of trail days put on by the local stawards of the smaller ride spots. if you ride a smaller spot reach out to the steward of the trails and ask when the next small group day is... If you don't know who maintains your local ride spot... Shame on you.
    "DO OR DO NOT, THERE IS NO TRY" -Yoda
    www.nemba.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    ahaha. Virtually every trail network Vt was started, completely built illegally.
    same with every other state. trail o tears wouldn't be trail o tears if the cape cod offroad motorcycle club hadn't taken matters into their own hands back in the 70's/80's and started roosting in their own fun off of the powerlines between exits 4 and 5. same for otis, yarmouth.........
    Last edited by newmarketrog; 06-03-2015 at 09:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcstumpy View Post
    Often time in addition to the big public trail days NEMBA does (like the one coming up Saturday June 6th at 9am from the Hiker/Biker lot) there are a TON of trail days put on by the local stawards of the smaller ride spots. if you ride a smaller spot reach out to the steward of the trails and ask when the next small group day is... If you don't know who maintains your local ride spot... Shame on you.
    great post, J. if i didn't hava wedding to attend sat, i'd be there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    same with every other state. trail o tears wouldn't be trail o tears if the cape cod offroad motorcycle club hadn't taken matters into their own hands back in the 70's/80's and started roosting in their own fun off of the powerlines between exits 5 and 6. same for otis, yarmouth.........
    Waterbury, Stowe, Waitsfield...Northfield.

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    Things are looking up for jerseydave. Darn Tough is going to add a bunch of jobs to his hood.
    You'll be able to walk or ride to work, Steady 40, 50 weeks with two paid, it's a dream come true to be able to support your family.

    Darn Tough sock factory expansion will add 250 to 300 jobs in Northfield - VTDigger

    Good Luck

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    Quote Originally Posted by ridingthebuff View Post
    Things are looking up for jerseydave. Darn Tough is going to add a bunch of jobs to his hood.
    You'll be able to walk or ride to work, Steady 40, 50 weeks with two paid, it's a dream come true to be able to support your family.

    Darn Tough sock factory expansion will add 250 to 300 jobs in Northfield - VTDigger

    Good Luck
    Yea! I know all about it. I'm helping the town rec. with a recreational trail that connects the two villages here...it goes right past the expansion. Lots of good things happening in Northfield. Our schools were just listed as top 10 in the state. A winery. A brew pub. A brand new high end general store. The University has sunk 40 mill into the campus over the last few years.

    The house we bought 7 years ago just appraised about 20 percent above what we paid and we haven't even finished renovating yet. This was the most affordable town in all of Lamoille and Washington county that wasn't way off the 89 corridor. We're pretty stoked here. My wife's job is rock solid and I wouldn't have to earn much locally to match what I earn now working in a pizza shop 25 minutes away. We could loose a car payment for sure.

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    Great socks! We sell a ton of em. That's awesome to hear!

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    yer eating this stuff up. i shoulda added a "nttawwt".

    you don't hafta be a homophobe to lol at those mini toons. just thot you and hogbrokeback might enjoy them
    You aren't very bright, eh? Now that's twice you've tried to insult me and Hog with gay jokes. You're a homophobe.

    I guess this is just your "thing"...being a douchebag and running your mouth on a friggin MTB forum.
    All good things in all good time

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaboom View Post
    You aren't very bright, eh? Now that's twice you've tried to insult me and Hog with gay jokes. You're a homophobe.

    I guess this is just your "thing"...being a douchebag and running your mouth on a friggin MTB forum.
    so what have you contributed to this forum other than complaining about paying money to ride trails and being upset if they aren't in tip top shape?

    and hog just wants new england riding to be like coloRADo.

    you guys contribute nothing from what i've seen, and you both have taken some sort of heat not just from me.

    i'm no homophobe, one of my best friends is queerer than a 3 dollar bill. you don't think that they don't bust my ballz for being a "breeder"? we have fun joking back and forth. it is what it is, they like what they like, i like what i like.

    contribute something of value or GTFO. and GET OVER IT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    so what have you contributed to this forum other than complaining about paying money to ride trails and being upset if they aren't in tip top shape?

    and hog just wants new england riding to be like coloRADo.

    you guys contribute nothing from what i've seen, and you both have taken some sort of heat not just from me.

    i'm no homophobe, one of my best friends is queerer than a 3 dollar bill. you don't think that they don't bust my ballz for being a "breeder"? we have fun joking back and forth. it is what it is, they like what they like, i like what i like.

    contribute something of value or GTFO. and GET OVER IT.
    Awww, are you upset that someone is finally calling you out on your douchebaggary Roger?

    I didn't complain about anything numbnuts. I said if I drive to Kingdom trails and pay money to ride I find it more than reasonable to expect the trails be maintained. For whatever reason you keep trying to twist that around. I made many other comments and had a reasonable conversation with Dave. You came in and started sniping off your little one liners like you always do.

    You contribute your snarky BS all over this forum and every once in a while something that isn't full of sarcasm and general asshattery.

    and LOFL at the "I have a gay friend!" defense. Now that's rich.
    All good things in all good time

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaboom View Post
    Awww, are you upset that someone is finally calling you out on your douchebaggary Roger?

    I didn't complain about anything numbnuts. I said if I drive to Kingdom trails and pay money to ride I find it more than reasonable to expect the trails be maintained. For whatever reason you keep trying to twist that around. I made many other comments and had a reasonable conversation with Dave. You came in and started sniping off your little one liners like you always do.

    You contribute your snarky BS all over this forum and every once in a while something that isn't full of sarcasm and general asshattery.

    and LOFL at the "I have a gay friend!" defense. Now that's rich.
    if you can't handle the one liners and snarky BS, then put me on your ignore list. pretty simple. or don't and grow some thicker skin. it'll do you some good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    so what have you contributed to this forum other than complaining about paying money to ride trails and being upset if they aren't in tip top shape?

    and hog just wants new england riding to be like coloRADo.

    you guys contribute nothing from what i've seen, and you both have taken some sort of heat not just from me.


    contribute something of value or GTFO. and GET OVER IT.
    Oh please, give it a rest rog. This thread was intended to raise questions and open eyes as to the perceived lack of trail development in NH. Guess what? It has done that.

    Turns out there are a bunch of snobby, selfish riders who can't stand the thought of their trails becoming more publicly known among riding circles, schools, online sites, and other avenues. The notion that they will become documented on MTB Project, or Strava, or Singletracks just kills you & several others. Meanwhile, Dave over there in VT is bragging about the growth and development of his own little paradise-town! How it's becoming such a flourishing community and how he's happy to be there. Guess what? That is how larger, more commercial communities start. Once a certain kind of people start discovering the community, it could damn well become the place many of you are highly critical of.

    Quit your *****ing about growth. Stop inhibiting. Your trails aren't going to become all flowy and jumpy and totally RADical and filled with people. They won't become Colorado (like that would be a bad thing). You guys sound like old grannies that don't like to use email or something. The trails just ain't the way they used to be. Is that what the kids are doing these days? Gee, wasn't like that when I was growin' up.

    Let the bike community grow through new trail development, new opportunities. Let the bike shops start up, let the new bike technologies come to market. Anybody want to try a 27.5+ from a LBS when they start becoming the new thing? Anybody want to try out the latest in fat bikes? It ain't gonna happen if you don't at least let things flourish a bit and become known. Let it happen!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    Oh please, give it a rest rog. This thread was intended to raise questions and open eyes as to the perceived lack of trail development in NH. Guess what? It has done that.

    Turns out there are a bunch of snobby, selfish riders who can't stand the thought of their trails becoming more publicly known among riding circles, schools, online sites, and other avenues. The notion that they will become documented on MTB Project, or Strava, or Singletracks just kills you & several others. Meanwhile, Dave over there in VT is bragging about the growth and development of his own little paradise-town! How it's becoming such a flourishing community and how he's happy to be there. Guess what? That is how larger, more commercial communities start. Once a certain kind of people start discovering the community, it could damn well become the place many of you are highly critical of.

    Quit your *****ing about growth. Stop inhibiting. Your trails aren't going to become all flowy and jumpy and totally RADical and filled with people. They won't become Colorado (like that would be a bad thing). You guys sound like old grannies that don't like to use email or something. The trails just ain't the way they used to be. Is that what the kids are doing these days? Gee, wasn't like that when I was growin' up.

    Let the bike community grow through new trail development, new opportunities. Let the bike shops start up, let the new bike technologies come to market. Anybody want to try a 27.5+ from a LBS when they start becoming the new thing? Anybody want to try out the latest in fat bikes? It ain't gonna happen if you don't at least let things flourish a bit and become known. Let it happen!!
    My town is flourishing and none of it is tourist based. Our local factory is expanding, and our local private University is expanding. We (all involved) have been creating the recreational opportunities here for us. Not for sale. No one here wants Northfield to become East Burke or Stowe. Many places have existed as long or longer then KT and not become KT so your general assumption about how all thriving trail networks inevitably becoming one of those two pimped out cluster#ucks is no accurate. Sorry. You're just wrong.

    I'm so selfish. I go up onto the trails I built over the course of 7 years and build easy options I will never ride so my neighbors can better enjoy the trails. I'm so selfish I reclaimed off the map trails that had been lost in towns I never ride in on my own time. You're so black and white on this, either you are for MTB development as a product, or some selfish a-hole. You must somehow be invested in that system. What is it you do?


    PS I ride a 13 year old SS HT 26" with a coil sprung open oil bath set of forks. I could care less about your perceived obsolescence driven market of great new things the new demographic of "Mountain Bikers" are convinced they need as they ride around in tiny circle in the groomed out bike park racing ghosts bragging about their KOMs.

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    so how bout this frickin weather? dirt wuz perfect this am. 55 degrees and no humidity. lovely spring

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    PS I ride a 13 year old SS HT 26" with a coil sprung open oil bath set of forks. I could care less about your perceived obsolescence driven market of great new things the new demographic of "Mountain Bikers" are convinced they need as they ride around in tiny circle in the groomed out bike park racing ghosts bragging about their KOMs.
    That's a shocker

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    Whoa, what? a brew pub? i didn't know that! and I'm only two towns over. Nice! Is the food good?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bad news View Post
    Anyone who doesn't understand why we don't feel that keen about making this place more like out west may find themselves a stranger in a strange land when confronted by the mentality of the locals on a day to day basis.
    I'm gonna go ahead and quote myself so that I can point at it while I say I told you so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    That's a shocker
    Ain't broke....Don't fix. 14 years on the same geometry. I love my bike. I do OK on it. I manage to hang with most groups. Modern MTBing has become such a 1% sport I could never afford to buy a new bike every 3-4 years. Just like ski passes. Didn't mention what you did...?

    Waitsfield is another case study for you. One guy is hyping development of easy trails. Doesn't really work so he just spends his time doing VMBA leg work. Volunteer of the year last year. Doesn't know anything about actual trail building, thinks he does. Is hated by all MTBers in town who have worked to develop the scene over the last 20 years. He is slowly trying to transform that place from a technical, classic New England spot into a bunch of easy trails paid for by federal grant money from a bankrupt government so 1% can come ride there fancy bikes on them without having to develop any skills. Go to the only local shop and mention asskissin...see what they say. He is the volunteer of the year...he is hated by the local riders. Nice dynamic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GraniteRash View Post
    Whoa, what? a brew pub? i didn't know that! and I'm only two towns over. Nice! Is the food good?
    Unfortunately....it kinda blows on every level...but. Forgot to mention a new physical therapy and rehab center just went in too.

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    Still riding that Evil Imperial huh? Those things are invincible.

    Keeping up with the Joneses in mountain biking is difficult to do in the era of the constantly turning internet hype machine. New axle and wheel standards once a month.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bad news View Post
    Still riding that Evil Imperial huh? Those things are invincible.

    Keeping up with the Joneses in mountain biking is difficult to do in the era of the constantly turning internet hype machine. New axle and wheel standards once a month.
    No actually. My friend had a Peyto Wild Bill SOC made the year after I got the Imp. He asked me what geometry. I loved the Imperial so much I gave him that exact geo. When he upgraded to an Evil Soverign, he gave me his Peyto. The Imperial is the last bike I purchased. # 16 of the first run in 2001. I love when people look at my bike and tell me what I "Need".

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Ain't broke....Don't fix. 14 years on the same geometry. I love my bike. I do OK on it. I manage to hang with most groups. Modern MTBing has become such a 1% sport I could never afford to buy a new bike every 3-4 years. Just like ski passes. Didn't mention what you did...?
    I am in Software and make a modest salary. I ride a $600 Haro 26" Hardtail that I have built up a bit and have absolutely no interest in dropping over $2000 on a full squish anytime soon. And to be quite honest, I smoke 70% of the riders in the front range who are often times on full carbon 150mm travel 29ers.

    What bugs me about your argument(s) is the biased outlook. KOMs are OK. People are competitive - it's human nature and it ain't holding you up. New mountain biking demographics happen - it's just evolution - and you can only kick & scream so much to try and keep it from happening.

    I have a lot of respect for people who ride solely for the joy of it and don't count their Strava segments. I use Strava to get better, but I enjoy the hell out of every ride. Ever been to Crested Butte? You'd love it there. Rigids, single speeds, antique bikes galore. There are sh*tloads of wicked expensive bikes and Strava dudes too. And the place remains effing awesome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    I am in Software and make a modest salary. I ride a $600 Haro 26" Hardtail that I have built up a bit and have absolutely no interest in dropping over $2000 on a full squish anytime soon. And to be quite honest, I smoke 70% of the riders in the front range who are often times on full carbon 150mm travel 29ers.

    What bugs me about your argument(s) is the biased outlook. KOMs are OK. People are competitive - it's human nature and it ain't holding you up. New mountain biking demographics happen - it's just evolution - and you can only kick & scream so much to try and keep it from happening.

    I have a lot of respect for people who ride solely for the joy of it and don't count their Strava segments. I use Strava to get better, but I enjoy the hell out of every ride. Ever been to Crested Butte? You'd love it there. Rigids, single speeds, antique bikes galore. There are sh*tloads of wicked expensive bikes and Strava dudes too. And the place remains effing awesome.
    Everyone is Biased based on their experiences. My experience in Vt spans the breadth of this conversation. I was came into an underground illegal scene and helped it develop to the point that some local salesman thought he and the town could start making money with it. He took it over with 1 other guy, ran all the other folks off by his rigid vision and stubborn attitude and they turned that scene into a parity of it's self. I left and started over. That experience is completely relevant to your question. Retrospectively, the original scene was way more fun, way more authentic, and way more interesting then what they have going on now. I spent last summer building there with Sinuosity. You would not believe the type of people showing up there to ride. Would. Not. Believe. That place is killed. Period. I hope NH keeps with the low key, rider driven effort.

  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Everyone is Biased based on their experiences. My experience in Vt spans the breadth of this conversation. I was came into an underground illegal scene and helped it develop to the point that some local salesman thought he and the town could start making money with it. He took it over with 1 other guy, ran all the other folks off by his rigid vision and stubborn attitude and they turned that scene into a parity of it's self. I left and started over. That experience is completely relevant to your question. Retrospectively, the original scene was way more fun, way more authentic, and way more interesting then what they have going on now. I spent last summer building there with Sinuosity. You would not believe the type of people showing up there to ride. Would. Not. Believe. That place is killed. Period. I hope NH keeps with the low key, rider driven effort.
    Translation to something in English??
    I like Sand - I don't like Witches


  172. #172
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    Holy Shit...I'm already looking at the MLS for property in the Norwich area. Hate to give up the 100 miles of publicized trails in a 20 mile radius of a certain central NH town, and of course that is just the "known trails".. But hey, I just missed out on Telluride and Crested Butte in the 80's. And Stowe and North Conway. Anyone notice how many New Hampshire folks have chimed in on this thread about NH trail development? Once again we have to thank Vermont for being the coolest, hippest, bestest place there is.

  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haint View Post
    Translation to something in English??
    Get a friend to help you...I'll bet you can figure it out.

  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Get a friend to help you...I'll bet you can figure it out.
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    ...mountain biking really is a lot simpler tha(n) this.
    sic erat scriptum

    Take a break DaveVt. Time to take a break.
    I like Sand - I don't like Witches


  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haint View Post
    sic erat scriptum

    Take a break DaveVt. Time to take a break.
    Did you just give me a time out? As if I'm the only one beating this dead horse to death. Just passing time.

  176. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by damnation View Post
    Anyone notice how many New Hampshire folks have chimed in on this thread about NH trail development? Once again we have to thank Vermont for being the coolest, hippest, bestest place there is.
    ^^^Yep! I think I'll stop over at Stratham Alps after work today!
    17 Fuel EX 9.9 (in progress)
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  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by hog_wild View Post
    ....Turns out there are a bunch of snobby, selfish riders who can't stand the thought of their trails becoming more publicly known among riding circles, schools, online sites, and other avenues. The notion that they will become documented on MTB Project, or Strava, or Singletracks just kills you & several others....

    Quit your *****ing about growth. Stop inhibiting. Your trails aren't going to become all flowy and jumpy and totally RADical and filled with people. They won't become Colorado (like that would be a bad thing). You guys sound like old grannies that don't like to use email or something. [I]The trails just ain't the way they used to be. Is that what the kids are doing these days? Gee, wasn't like that when I was growin' up....
    Why don't you go reread my post on the first page of this thread before throwing your insults around? There are actually a lot of people successfully working very hard to improve the scene all over NH. I fully understand DaveVT's frustration with the MTBVT's marketing machine - a prosperous MTB community needs contributors, not just participants. There is a difference.

  178. #178
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    Slightly tangent to the conversation, Peter Miller with another solid piece in the local paper this week. Just so you folks understand my P.O.V. on MTB, or even fishing and BC skiing is not as fringe...or as hateful as some of you take it to be....and while I will never call myself a Vermonter...in the context of modern MTBing in Vt I will claim a small part...with many many others... and it's a symptom of a larger malady that is recognized by many folks... Love Peter Miller and have had his Art in my house almost since the day we moved in. Yes, I’ve had it, but not really, if you know what I mean - Waterbury Record | An online edition of the Waterbury Record newspaper: Featured Columnists

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    great read^^^^^^^

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