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Thread: Adams Camp 2.0

  1. #1
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    Adams Camp 2.0

    Anybody have info on this besides what is on the Stowe Trails Partnership Facebook page? Was riding Kimmers today and noticed there is now a trail above Kimmers! Didn't have time to check it out out but was hoping it would connect to the cabin.

    Based on the Facebook page they are saying they are building a cutover off haul road and one down to the rec path.

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    Saw the same trail riding Friday. Looking forward to some single track to get off the haul road! But I have nothing new to share.

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    It will go across the Haul Road pretty high up. A little bit below the Hare Line XC ski trail. It'll get you pretty close to the cabin.

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    Great news! I almost slammed into a jacked up truck driving up the haul road today. Not sure where he was heading or how he got in there. Either way this trail should be a great addition to what is becoming my favorite trail network.

    Kudos to Stowe for connecting all these networks. Really expands the riding possibilities on some quality single-track.

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    The trail down to the rec path is to connect Top Notch clients to the trails. Between them and Trapps you'd think they had the $ just to build it. But no, "Give us Money" is the call. Where are all the volunteers? What has the SMBC been doing all these years. Events. membership. Ect they still don't have the resources to build a couple miles of trails.

    It will be great to have trail up to and down from the cabin, but C'mon....instead of making videos and organizing media events...pick up a tool fercrissake.

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    I love riding around Adam's Camp and Trapp. Those new trails will add nice mileage to the 25-30 mile loops I've been putting in there this summer. I hope to ride there Sunday to check out the progress and put a big ride in. Keep those new trails coming.
    Vermonter - bikes, beers and skis.

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    There's a better picture here:

    https://www.stowetrails.org/adams-camp-2-0/

    Doesn't seem like it will be too close to the cabin, just cuts off the haul road which is cool.

    I rode up there last Friday and phase 1 was definitely not done in time for the leaf blower which they were shooting for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    I love riding around Adam's Camp and Trapp. Those new trails will add nice mileage to the 25-30 mile loops I've been putting in there this summer. I hope to ride there Sunday to check out the progress and put a big ride in. Keep those new trails coming.
    Agreed, have started riding from Cady Hill up behind the high school then doing pipeline to tap line, growler, Kimmers and back. Amazing ride which has everything. Climbing, technical, flow, machined jumps. Would love to hear your 30 loop if you care to share.

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    More brown sidewalk. Hopefully at the high point of the new sidewalk they cut directly over to the haul rd. with a spur in addition to dropping back down. The log landing you can see in the video on the haul rd is pretty much the top so that would essentially cut out the climb. Development of one of the most remote areas of Stowe riding could have been epic hand built advanced trail. Sidewalks everywhere is so lame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Development of one of the most remote areas of Stowe riding could have been epic hand built advanced trail. Sidewalks everywhere is so lame.
    I hope you're wrong about the new Adam's trail being brown sidewalk. There is so much land back there and some new technical hand built trails would just be perfect. I'll take a flow trail here and there but it seems like every "new" trail I ride recently is a BMX track. Bring back real singletrack.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcusick View Post
    Agreed, have started riding from Cady Hill up behind the high school then doing pipeline to tap line, growler, Kimmers and back. Amazing ride which has everything. Climbing, technical, flow, machined jumps. Would love to hear your 30 loop if you care to share.

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    I take a similar way but opposite direction. I start at Adam's Camp lot right past the Materhorn bar. Pedal up to Kimmers then down it, up Hardy's Haul to the Trapp cabin, down Growler, down Tapline, pick up Luce Hill Loop, down Pipeline, go behind the high school to connect to Cady Hill via Strawberry Hill, take the Cady Hill Connector to Bears then pedal the 3-4 miles back to car on the rec. path. I'm going to give that loop a go on Sunday if I can get out.

    That ends up to about 30 miles and 3k ft. of vert. You can add more riding a couple trails at Trapp across the street and/or add more miles in Cady Hill. You could easily put 40 miles in if you get all that.

    Another awesome ride I put together was starting at Adam's Camp near the Materhorn and riding point to point to Little River in Waterbury. That was 33ish miles, 4400 ft of vert. with only a few miles on pavement.

    Once you connect Adams to Trapp to Cady you just get so much variety of trails to ride. I just hope the new trails they build aren't flow trails.
    Vermonter - bikes, beers and skis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    I hope you're wrong about the new Adam's trail being brown sidewalk. There is so much land back there and some new technical hand built trails would just be perfect. I'll take a flow trail here and there but it seems like every "new" trail I ride recently is a BMX track. Bring back real singletrack.



    I take a similar way but opposite direction. I start at Adam's Camp lot right past the Materhorn bar. Pedal up to Kimmers then down it, up Hardy's Haul to the Trapp cabin, down Growler, down Tapline, pick up Luce Hill Loop, down Pipeline, go behind the high school to connect to Cady Hill via Strawberry Hill, take the Cady Hill Connector to Bears then pedal the 3-4 miles back to car on the rec. path. I'm going to give that loop a go on Sunday if I can get out.

    That ends up to about 30 miles and 3k ft. of vert. You can add more riding a couple trails at Trapp across the street and/or add more miles in Cady Hill. You could easily put 40 miles in if you get all that.

    Another awesome ride I put together was starting at Adam's Camp near the Materhorn and riding point to point to Little River in Waterbury. That was 33ish miles, 4400 ft of vert. with only a few miles on pavement.

    Once you connect Adams to Trapp to Cady you just get so much variety of trails to ride. I just hope the new trails they build aren't flow trails.
    Look at the video on the link. The marketer is standing in front of 50 inch wide sidewalk talking about the new single track. It's all gonna be sidewalk. For reference....FLO is their idea of intermediate/advance. You'll never see a hand built trail in stowe again, built by the club. Some locals are out in the bushes still keeping the good ol stuff up and running, but the club buys trail. Hand built is not economical unless you have skilled volunteers working for free, not paid crew at 100 bucks an hour building roads for excavators that folks then ride their bikes on. There may end up being some options but everything will be 100 percent rideable for all levels. As I said, this project is about bringing the Top Notch guests up to the trails and providing McMountain Biking for the tourists that stay there. The connector trail they talk about connectig to the Sterling Valley stuff is the same plan. Stoer MTBing as an amenity for Top Notch Resort....the "Community" gets to ride it, but the motivation is not about the local community and never has been as far as the SMBC is concerned. There is a reason virtually no one who has been around from BITD has anything to do with the club. Top Notch should be footing the bill for this, it's their plan, hatched by them...built for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Look at the video on the link. The marketer is standing in front of 50 inch wide sidewalk talking about the new single track. It's all gonna be sidewalk. For reference....FLO is their idea of intermediate/advance. You'll never see a hand built trail in stowe again, built by the club. Some locals are out in the bushes still keeping the good ol stuff up and running, but the club buys trail. Hand built is not economical unless you have skilled volunteers working for free, not paid crew at 100 bucks an hour building roads for excavators that folks then ride their bikes on. There may end up being some options but everything will be 100 percent rideable for all levels. As I said, this project is about bringing the Top Notch guests up to the trails and providing McMountain Biking for the tourists that stay there. The connector trail they talk about connectig to the Sterling Valley stuff is the same plan. Stoer MTBing as an amenity for Top Notch Resort....the "Community" gets to ride it, but the motivation is not about the local community and never has been as far as the SMBC is concerned. There is a reason virtually no one who has been around from BITD has anything to do with the club. Top Notch should be footing the bill for this, it's their plan, hatched by them...built for them.
    The part I saw which connects to the top of Kimmers appeared to be hand built.

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    That would be nice.

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    Epic is on the Board of the SMBC I think. He would know if the new trails are to be hand built. Paging Epic. I'd be surprised, but maybe he could tell us who is doing the work.

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    The trail above Kimmer's will be mostly machine built. There is a pretty big handbill section right above the top of Kimmers. The dirt is really nice out there. Not really aiming for "dirt highway" though. I'm heading up there this morning to see how it's coming.

    We have some local guys doing the work. Since Hardy moved away, we need to try some new people. Being able to use local riders and residents (at least some of the time) seems like the right thing to do. You probably know Isaac Allaire, he and his brother are involved along with a few others. One guy does excavator work on snowmaking systems, he seems pretty skilled with the excavator - to say the least.

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    First time trail builders? I know Issac has made some primitive trail in CFN. So all benched , almost all excavator built trail. Totally private funding or some grants? Who did the design work? This seems like a really appropriate place for some actual technical single track, why are you folks not doing that? The trail up from Top Notch....all excavator built? Thanks for chiming in.

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    Rode Stowe and a few other VT spots for the first time a few weekends back. God it got me all watery eyed from how much fun I had. Love getting back to my New England roots, drinking good beer, sleeping in the car, and hitting some new stuff.

    Kimmers was by and far one of the best trails I rode on that trip. I noticed the new trail but didn't head up the road to find it. I will say I loved how Kimmers (in my opinion) held true to the New England raw style, but was sustainable and optimized for the bike. So so many fun little features. I loved Flo too! But Kimmers is more my style and I had a great day on the bike.

    And not to start the same argument for the millionth time, but I've seen guys make some really burly stuff with machines. Machine does not equal brown sidewalk. I've seen 24" bench laid down with a 6' wide ex. I've watched some gnarly steep rock work put in. Huge features. You name it, it can probably be done.

    I love a good handbuild, and I appreciate its place in the riding spectrum, but I hate when people equate machines with easy trail. It is usually evident in places where the builders haven't gained the skills to do some really wild stuff.
    Don't buy upgrades; ride up grades.

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    Yes but will they? Absent happened yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Yes but will they? Absent happened yet.
    New Englanders are stubborn, we would rather make mistakes for years and learn on our own than ask for help from folks who already have it down!

    A friend who use to do advocacy work in VT gave me some background on the goods from that trip, but I'd love to hear more of the history of Kimmers. It really stood out as a fave from my leaf peeping weekend.
    Don't buy upgrades; ride up grades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iceboxsteve View Post
    New Englanders are stubborn, we would rather make mistakes for years and learn on our own than ask for help from folks who already have it down!

    A friend who use to do advocacy work in VT gave me some background on the goods from that trip, but I'd love to hear more of the history of Kimmers. It really stood out as a fave from my leaf peeping weekend.
    I was on the crew for kimmers. That project was the last one before mechanization. It could have been so much better if we were able to take our time. Lowest bidder trail builds don t result in the best trail. That said it has way more ne flavor than almost all the stuff they are choosing to build with excavators.

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    Nice trail Dave! I love how it felt like an old school hiking trail, but was clearly very bike optimized. To me it blended the best of New England trails with features that made it flow better on a bike.

    And yes, low bid is a pretty shitty method. Why low bid, public $$? When I write RFPs or RFQs I try to make them best value not low bid, but sometimes you can only do so much with government rules.
    Don't buy upgrades; ride up grades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iceboxsteve View Post
    Nice trail Dave! I love how it felt like an old school hiking trail, but was clearly very bike optimized. To me it blended the best of New England trails with features that made it flow better on a bike.

    And yes, low bid is a pretty shitty method. Why low bid, public $$? When I write RFPs or RFQs I try to make them best value not low bid, but sometimes you can only do so much with government rules.
    Well, the accepted design done by another company had kimmers going way up into the drainage side hill right. Hardy decided he did t want to cross all the small rivulettes and instead stayed in between and routed switchback after switchback and pushed the sustainable gradient towards the top. He underestimate how intensive those turns would be and so as we neared the top less considerarion was given to how they rode, and we just moved on. I always felt like the top of that trail did t ride great and a down. No grade reversals mean heavy braking on dh trail into a turn that is over tight. Erosion in short. So maybe in this case lowest Bid is less accurate then under bid. His next trails were blueberry lake in Warren, same issue. It bothered me, he knew it and that bothered him, so I stopped working for him and worked for sinuosity full time. By the time he got to hard haul he started to figure it out and i hear the slate valley stuff is way better. I hope to ride it in a few weeks. Sinuosity built the orange trail here in Northfield. You should ride it. It s a machine built trail that is gripping to ride the whole way.

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    Wow, a lot of replies this morning. Not sure where to start... first of all, I think this is an appropriate place to use a machine. The top soil is in some places a couple of feet deep. Underneath that there is a nice layer of gray earth with fine gravel in it which will make for a nice surface. Maybe hand-built would be cool, it worked nicely on Kimmer's, but who would do it? We've actually had a lot of volunteer hours this year, more than we could use, but I don't think it would be practical here. For starters, you know how access is there, and you know how volunteer work can be. We'd like it done in this lifetime!

    First time trail-builders Well, more like 2nd time, they've done some private work around town and it is good. Fund-raising is club funds and no grants, though there could be a small one later if we get it.

    Planning for the trail, a lot of it is me in conjunction with another club member, Sam von Trapp (it's entirely on their land), the trail builders and a few others. I think the alignment of the trail is gonna be really cool, I am psyched about the river crossing.

    The other trail on Brook Rd, that was planned and flagged by Hardy and is being built by Owen who worked for Hardy last year. The bottom half is all handbuilt, but you could be excused for thinking it is excavated. The grades are pretty harsh, so not sure how many casual riders from Topnotch will be riding up it. The grades on Calgary's looked harsh too, but they ride fine, I hope that is the case here.

    We don't do low bid, we do the bid we think will be best for us and for the trail. This year we used Tom Lepesquer from LD Trailworks and he was awesome. We will be using him in the future too (already booked him for 2019), but he only has so much bandwidth or I'd have him do everything! The improvements he made on Flo are so good, though I have to say that the fact that we barely changed the alignment at all speaks well of what Hardy did there.

    Dave I respect your opinion and I respect that you put it in practice in real life, but not everywhere is Northfield and it's cool that you are doing it your way. I hope that people like what we are doing. So far it seems that they are. Despite the perception that STP is all about Corporate Sponsors, that isn't really the case. We get far, far more money from individual donors who are happy with what we are doing and want us to do more of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epic View Post
    Wow, a lot of replies this morning. Not sure where to start... first of all, I think this is an appropriate place to use a machine. The top soil is in some places a couple of feet deep. Underneath that there is a nice layer of gray earth with fine gravel in it which will make for a nice surface. Maybe hand-built would be cool, it worked nicely on Kimmer's, but who would do it? We've actually had a lot of volunteer hours this year, more than we could use, but I don't think it would be practical here. For starters, you know how access is there, and you know how volunteer work can be. We'd like it done in this lifetime!

    First time trail-builders Well, more like 2nd time, they've done some private work around town and it is good. Fund-raising is club funds and no grants, though there could be a small one later if we get it.

    Planning for the trail, a lot of it is me in conjunction with another club member, Sam von Trapp (it's entirely on their land), the trail builders and a few others. I think the alignment of the trail is gonna be really cool, I am psyched about the river crossing.

    The other trail on Brook Rd, that was planned and flagged by Hardy and is being built by Owen who worked for Hardy last year. The bottom half is all handbuilt, but you could be excused for thinking it is excavated. The grades are pretty harsh, so not sure how many casual riders from Topnotch will be riding up it. The grades on Calgary's looked harsh too, but they ride fine, I hope that is the case here.

    We don't do low bid, we do the bid we think will be best for us and for the trail. This year we used Tom Lepesquer from LD Trailworks and he was awesome. We will be using him in the future too (already booked him for 2019), but he only has so much bandwidth or I'd have him do everything! The improvements he made on Flo are so good, though I have to say that the fact that we barely changed the alignment at all speaks well of what Hardy did there.

    Dave I respect your opinion and I respect that you put it in practice in real life, but not everywhere is Northfield and it's cool that you are doing it your way. I hope that people like what we are doing. So far it seems that they are. Despite the perception that STP is all about Corporate Sponsors, that isn't really the case. We get far, far more money from individual donors who are happy with what we are doing and want us to do more of it.
    Well sure. Your trails are an amenity to real estate development and room booking for the tourist business. You facilitate access, make all the climbs as easy as you can, market, put in parking lots, your goal is continually increased traffic as part of a revenue stream. I was around since the beginning. Solkoloff wanted easy trail to market to people on vacation. All the original trail builders that made Stowe a place people wanted to ride got run off, myself included. Northfield works because we don't want any of that. The climbs are hard, the trails are hard, and there is no marketing.

    it is only a matter of time until someone sees $ in what I am creating, and they will take charge of it just like Rick did in Stowe BITD. They will start to advertise, they will make parking lots, easy climbs, host events, and recreate MTB here for the generic vacationing rider. All I can hope is that by that time the home reno is done, we check out and buy that sail boat and I fly fish the salt until I die.

    I don't really have any respect for what SMBC is doing, and has done. As an employee they sucked to work for. Rick is a douche, and those now in charge are gonna kill it just like AIG killed the Mtn as they rung it out and overdeveloped it into oblivion. I do respect your volunteer efforts, but $teaux is a total sell out.

    The resort already advertises the trails are part of the 1% spruce lodge experience. It's got no soul anymore, but that's how life works, that's what a capitalist model looks like. Choose your example. The scene was way better before when no one cared about growing the sport. Dirtbags for life.


    Clifford told me about the plan to connect Top Notch to the Adam's Camp and Sterling Valley trails years ago when he ran the shop there, a plan hatched by them, so let's not pretend this is not about that. I'm sure they'll be doing their own marketing once they are linked in. This is classic neo-liberal development in micro. A resource is recognized for inherent monetary value, the locals are displaced and the development happens to serve the needs of the well-off visitor. The developers celebrate the jobs they create and money they bring in, but the jobs suck and money goes to the top. Meanwhile a local culture is killed and those that stay become working poor....and they're supposed to say thanks.
    Wanna throw up in your mouth a little?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYBB8WhSkyo&t=33s
    https://www.youtube.com/user/StoweMountainLodge/videos

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    Throw up in my mouth a little? No thanks, I'm good. A lot of the time I agree with you, a little bit of what is above I agree with too, but overall, not my experience. BTW, we still don't have any beginner trails, so if that was Rick's plan along, big fail there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epic View Post
    Throw up in my mouth a little? No thanks, I'm good. A lot of the time I agree with you, a little bit of what is above I agree with too, but overall, not my experience. BTW, we still don't have any beginner trails, so if that was Rick's plan along, big fail there.
    Oh Pah-Leeze. The riding there is so dumbed down it's crazy. Let's be honest. You have a paved rec path. Cady Hill Connector is not easy trail? The bears rebuild lowers the bar. Flo built as the expert trail? So easy it then got deemed "Intermediate" but I saw the original plan. You make me LOL. Hey, if folks don't like it, they can leave or not go there. If the new demographic of riders in Stowe is stoked, then keep on! I know LOTS of folks who feel pretty betrayed by what has gone down over the last decade, and you know them too. So much so they have gone rogue on you, there's like a whole secret club in Stowe that exists as an antithesis to the STA (SMBC). That's just the truth.

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    Go riding with a real beginner. It's not beginner trails. I'm not saying it's something other than what you are saying, but unless your beginner rider is an ex-NCAA Nordic Skier, it's not beginner riding here. Not like Kingdom Trails. Hey, sorry for the betrayal. I used to feel like you too, but instead of just fading away and working on my own trail (which I did for a while, and still do) I felt that the best move was to join the Borg and try to have some of my own input on it. I also greatly appreciate the "other club" and what they do and STP doesn't even try to "go there".

    Anyway, happy I could give you some LOLs, what's life without laughter?

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    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to DaveVt again."

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    Don't really wanna get involved with the back and forth here, cuz I get emotionally sucked in...but have to say that video made me embarassed to call myself a mountain biker. Gonna go run now.

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    That Cady Hill video looked like a whole lot of beginner level trails to me.

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    Commodity over community. That was the clear choice at the on-set. Build something for the love of it, someone will see $ value and take it from you.
    "Self-appointed experts bring change without improvement."
    A. Goodrich, Mount Mansfield Ski Club, 1936. Fast forward 80 years, he was clearly a visionary.

    This advertisement is great. Watch them all ride off trail to avoid roots.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaGqa8l4vTw&t=22s

    So much poser-ing. Sell it Stowe Mtn Lodge, Sell it. It really is just funny.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6v93MH1w_M

    Back in 2000, never for money, always for the love. Sometimes I think where would the level be now if we were encouraged and not driven off and told to tear all our trails down. We're just now seeing things built that rival what we were doing almost 20 years ago.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFKcISPCFxw

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    Just think we could have casinos and strip clubs, when will the developers learn that Vermont shouldn't be smeared with outdoor recreation for the common man. Give us what we deserve!!!!!

    You talk like these mountains are raping a natural resource and exploiting actual native peoples. If someone doesn't want to work the chair lift for $10 an hour, get another job. You spew this "terrible job" talk Dave and then throw out how all the capitalist bastards are about the money.

    From my house in East Barre to Northfield I pass 4 houses with Confederate flags in the windows, a great number of drug addicts and some homeless.

    Let's keep pretending that smooth dirt is the devil in Vermont though.

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    Sure first world problem, but in the MTBR Vt MOUNTAIN BIKING forum...it's a conversation. Hey, people agree with me.

    BTW, most of your retort doesn't make any logical sense. Confederates are a greater evil then Neo liberal developers? Local Drug dealers? What? I think that's another thread maybe. Or, when the state spends 90 k /1.5 miles on brown sidewalk and not opioid treatment, maybe there is a connection.

    I agree with one point....if you don't like dirt sidewalk, stay away from it. If you don't like gross over-development like Vt ski towns represent, leave and stay out. I do, I left...it's funny to watch them pose and market. It's not that serious a thing of course. It is a thing though.

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    Love that b2b vid...and, with tongue in cheek, add that its like a little recognition of all us mortals riding and then becomes the dave and hardy show...toward the end a vignette of fern-gap, shop drop, jersey trails, bear claw drop, and freeride line...dave, dave, dave, hardy, dave, dave...
    Also funny how the stowe vid posted above is all trail that is more or less on top of where many of those were...like building on an indian burial ground.

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    Valid points from all, but I wonder if everyone is looking at this under too local a microscope? We tend to blame the other side without looking very closely in the mirror. Countless other communities have found a way to incorporate beginner trails alongside challenging, progressive terrain. Anyone who's been lucky to travel to the Whistler/Squamish area, Moab of late, Sedona, etc. knows that it's possible. So why so hard in New England? New England is special but perhaps it's time to stop thinking of it as such so we can start talking to these other communities about their experiences and how they can be incorporated into our own. The high horse isn't going to solve any of these problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaparzo View Post
    Valid points from all, but I wonder if everyone is looking at this under too local a microscope? We tend to blame the other side without looking very closely in the mirror. Countless other communities have found a way to incorporate beginner trails alongside challenging, progressive terrain. Anyone who's been lucky to travel to the Whistler/Squamish area, Moab of late, Sedona, etc. knows that it's possible. So why so hard in New England? New England is special but perhaps it's time to stop thinking of it as such so we can start talking to these other communities about their experiences and how they can be incorporated into our own. The high horse isn't going to solve any of these problems.
    I agree and I get the need for *some* easy riding but have been waiting and watching for a long time to see the official networks build anything for the real upper end skill-wise. Project after project is making old trails easy for the false notion of sustainable trail, or build new trail that is 100 percent ride-able for all. The trail projects that are billed as expert have failed to create anything remotely close to what that means in the larger world.

    Yes it's a great time to be a trail rider and we are lucky, but that doesn't mean in this context we can't acknowledge some short-comings and try to really create something fantastic. When IMBA went to Stowe some years ago to access if the place was worthy of their highest rating as a ride center they said it was not. The reason? No expert trails. True story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    I agree and I get the need for *some* easy riding but have been waiting and watching for a long time to see the official networks build anything for the real upper end skill-wise. Project after project is making old trails easy for the false notion of sustainable trail, or build new trail that is 100 percent ride-able for all. The trail projects that are billed as expert have failed to create anything remotely close to what that means in the larger world.

    Yes it's a great time to be a trail rider and we are lucky, but that doesn't mean in this context we can't acknowledge some short-comings and try to really create something fantastic. When IMBA went to Stowe some years ago to access if the place was worthy of their highest rating as a ride center they said it was not. The reason? No expert trails. True story.
    I believe it and certainly think that end of the spectrum is getting too much attention and look forward to future/appreciate existing efforts to balance it with natural/challenging terrain (Thanks for being a steward of that kind of riding!). I just don't have the data to know if that's to be expected in this kind of process and if it's "New England culture" at large that is to blame for that process being prolonged and not just certain trail organizations catering to wealthy/beginner riders. I hope Victory Hill is a good example of certain trail benefactors choosing to point the arrow in the other direction towards challenging/fun terrain, but I'd agree that this is still not exactly the natural/hand-cut terrain we are all reminiscing about.

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    Certainly a black sheep in the VT scene, but almost all the building down here in Pittsfield has been by hand since 2011. Thatís the last seven miles, and six of the last eight new trails are expert by any standard. Weíre a 25 mile network on the outskirts of the Killington scene and like us or not weíre an example of a place thatís bucking the trend.

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    Put in a great Adams Camp ride in yesterday. We climbed up Kimmers (I usually descend that) in anticipation of checking out the new trail at the top but it was closed and was a muddy mess. Oh well. The Growler, Tapline, Pipeline combo was in great shape - tacky and shockingly dry. Perfect fall ride.

    It was nice to get out and see where the new trail begins and ends and that was probably the last time I'd climb any of the Haul Road. Always stoked for new trails in the area regardless of how they're built.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    ...When IMBA went to Stowe some years ago to access if the place was worthy of their highest rating as a ride center they said it was not. The reason? No expert trails. True story.
    How does Park City get IMBA's highest rating then? Tons of mileage but a good chunk of the riding is rather uninteresting with very little expert terrain IME. A fact not lost on the locals there. Sorry for the hijack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by radair View Post
    How does Park City get IMBA's highest rating then? Tons of mileage but a good chunk of the riding is rather uninteresting with very little expert terrain IME. A fact not lost on the locals there. Sorry for the hijack.
    Dunno. Don't really stay tuned in to that kind of thing, I only know about $teaux from my living there BITD.

  42. #42
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    I hate to see another thread I'm a part of derailed, but I guess others brought up points so I wanted to offer my counter. Basically the issue I am hearing relates to planning. In fact, in my opinion, its one of the biggest things missing from the New England scene. A lot of the issues everyone brings up would be solved with solid planning from day one.

    A lot the projects I work on start at the truest conceptual level. The 10,000 foot view. Incorporating all the stakeholders and partners. Want handcut true double black trail? Want brown sidewalk? In between?

    It all has its place. In a system, in a town, in a region; all the flavors have their place and its key to find out what people (LMs, riders, the public, the $$, etc.) want and figure out where that fits the landscape (political, social, and physical). And if it isn't hashed out from square one it can create issues down the road. My example is the discontent above.

    How can a community ever ensure they meet their goals if they don't have a plan to work towards? And plans evolve.

    I will also say I don't believe the majority of machine builders in New England have the skills to build hard trail, which could easily be fixed if folks weren't so stubborn.

    Is that b2b video hard trail? All I see is smooth easy trail connecting a few skinnies and drops and gaps. Dave if that is what you're after I invite you to head south or to Arkansas or other places outside VT where folks are building much bigger, more features, etc. with machines, on public land, for money, etc etc.
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceboxsteve View Post
    I hate to see another thread I'm a part of derailed, but I guess others brought up points so I wanted to offer my counter. Basically the issue I am hearing relates to planning. In fact, in my opinion, its one of the biggest things missing from the New England scene. A lot of the issues everyone brings up would be solved with solid planning from day one.

    A lot the projects I work on start at the truest conceptual level. The 10,000 foot view. Incorporating all the stakeholders and partners. Want handcut true double black trail? Want brown sidewalk? In between?

    It all has its place. In a system, in a town, in a region; all the flavors have their place and its key to find out what people (LMs, riders, the public, the $$, etc.) want and figure out where that fits the landscape (political, social, and physical). And if it isn't hashed out from square one it can create issues down the road. My example is the discontent above.

    How can a community ever ensure they meet their goals if they don't have a plan to work towards? And plans evolve.

    I will also say I don't believe the majority of machine builders in New England have the skills to build hard trail, which could easily be fixed if folks weren't so stubborn.

    Is that b2b video hard trail? All I see is smooth easy trail connecting a few skinnies and drops and gaps. Dave if that is what you're after I invite you to head south or to Arkansas or other places outside VT where folks are building much bigger, more features, etc. with machines, on public land, for money, etc etc.
    Well said. And agreed on there needing to be a conversation about what actually constitutes "hard" trail. The terrain in many New England (including Mass) locations would allow for BC-esque trail networks, ie. steep, rugged, well (machine and hand) built, feature-packed trail. It does seem a plan is sort of lacking, the consequence being a contest between flow-trail sidewalks and sort-of janky hand-built trail (which i love!). Obviously there are grades thereof, but truly difficult, progressive trails (outside of bike parks) seem lost in the middle.

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    The assumption that the trails in the vid I posted were easy is incorrect. Those trails were very technical. On par with what would now be rated as double or triple black diamond in Perry hill. Ridiculous ratings imo.

    I completely agree about a vision. In fact your singing our tune, but "we" were pushed out of the conversation and the few folks who decided they wanted to become contractors had to drink the kool aid and went on to build out the next generation of trails.

    Now we have official trails and rogue. We are seeing some official trails.add some large features but we are not seeing the highly featured, highly engaging trails of old.....except apparently for the green man trails in Pittsfield. I 'll have to make it down there next year. Millstone is.another place bucking the trend.

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    Used to live and ride in Stowe back before Tonyís backbreaker and the roll down got shut down. Now I only go there to ride with my 2nd grader. He can climb up from the lot, connector, down Flo, up snake (only the one rooted corner gets him) and then back down Bear. So is it a beginner trail or is he a prodigy I should smear all over The Utube?

    The Flo rework is messed up. Hardy had it so begginers could pump and riders could jump. Now almost every jump requires braking or you over shoot, and one double set at the bottom is so spaced out you have to pedal your ass off to clear it.

    I will say, I did see a guy pedal strike a rock at the top of connector and flip into the woods, so maybe that spot could be marked with a black diamond or caution sign.

    The other problem is you have to wait up top before you start down or youíll catch a herd of Herbs on $10,000 bikes - or some douchy dad with his 2nd grader.

    Good news is great trails exist all over the place, just not in Stowe anymore. And thank you Pittsfield people. Made the drive a few times this year.

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    Did Florence get built on top of some technical trail that I was not aware of. You'd think that a bunch of awesome technical trails were bulldozed or something. No, new trails were added. If you guys want to go ride Fern Gap, you still can. You might have to move some branches and stuff, but feel free to go for it. I guess that lines of Herbs means that we have been making trails people want to ride.

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    I think that is Daveís point. No old trails were re-built for Florence, and no new trails have been built since. All the eggs are in that basket. Machine trails are fun when you can give it a good run, but thatís all thats left in Stowe. 2 Machine made flow trails and old neglected stuff. And yes, someone could unearth the fern gap, but they havenít and I kinda bet it would get shut back down anyway. There has been work on the wall, and other old trails by locals, but most have gone elsewhere. Stowe wonít see a group of locals together to build and ride again.

    Stowe wants/needs money from other States. Thatís fine. Letís just not pretend it is a real Mnt Bike town anymore. Thatís all.

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    The worst thing that could happen to a town with great locally grown riding is for it to become a destination for riding these days.

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    Not necessarily. One could become a destination like Squamish. The problem is one makes themselves a destination.

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    There are so many awesome trails in Vermont.

    Sleepy, HTF, Carse, Richmond trails, and Brewster to name a few. All with non-machined super tech. All within 30 minutes of Stowe.

    Getting frustrated with brown sidewalks, go ride elsewhere. The Stowe bashing is getting old and predictable. Don't like it, don't ride there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tedo View Post
    Don't like it, don't ride there.
    As I said. Still worth a mention as every new trail goes in there is a lost opportunity to develop a more complete riding scene in a town that really like to market it's self for mountain biking. If you don't like to comments....you don't have to read them.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by tedo View Post
    There are so many awesome trails in Vermont.

    Sleepy, HTF, Carse, Richmond trails, and Brewster to name a few. All with non-machined super tech. All within 30 minutes of Stowe.

    Getting frustrated with brown sidewalks, go ride elsewhere. The Stowe bashing is getting old and predictable. Don't like it, don't ride there.
    Leave Brewster out of this. Nothing to ride there anyhow.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    As I said. Still worth a mention as every new trail goes in there is a lost opportunity to develop a more complete riding scene in a town that really like to market it's self for mountain biking. If you don't like to comments....you don't have to read them.
    With all due respect I started this thread which was simply to ask about Adams camp 2.0. Yeah I get it that you are pissed at Stowe and I don't completely disagree with you, but telling another poster if they don't like the discussion (that you hijacked long ago) to go elsewhere is beyond absurd.

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    This is an interesting thread. Living in the Stowe/Waterbury area for the past 17 years Iíve been witness to the changes. Hereís my two cents.

    Totally agree with Daveís comments re: the evolution/de-evolution of the bike scene in Stowe, butÖ..

    I think there was something more to it.

    When I moved to the area I met up with like minded riders, mostly on big bikes, going for it on the technical features in the area (see Daveís totally sick throw-back vid). Rides were about conquering obstacles, getting sideways and off the ground, having childish fun and not so much about completing a circuit of specified distance/duration.

    Perry Hill was raw.
    Stowe had all kinds of rad shit in the woods.
    Bolton Valley ran the lift once in awhile and it was super fun.

    And then overnight (literally) it all changed. The Stinkyís and Bulitts and Big Hits and Banshees were all traded for XC 29ers because they ďrolled and climbedĒ better.

    I asked my buds ďwhat will you do with that thing when the shit gets realĒ and they all looked at me and blinked.

    And then the trails changed too.

    No doubt the drive to attract mtb tourism has influenced the riding in the area but Iím not convinced there wasnít something else that shifted within the bike community itself. Itís almost like for a hot minute the bike community had a grasp on the mtb progression happening on the west side of the continent at the time (north shore Vancouver, interior BC, Bellingham area, Whistler etc) but then quickly lost it for some reason.

    Never been able to put my finger on it.

    Maybe enough of us got older, injured, started families, or whatever, that the drive to advance technical skill, ride rowdy and raw, go big for the sake of going big, collectively faded. Combine that with course plotted by the SMBC, add a dash of the STRAVA-esque bullshit, top it all with AIG/Vail/SML, and here we are.

    Whatever happened was the result of multiple moving parts. I think what we now have is the result of the rapid progression of rider numbers, tectonic paradigm shifts in riding style influenced by bike design and technology, along with the economics of outdoor tourism. The bike scene here didnít adapt and respond very well in retrospect. Who owns it? SMBC, individual trail builders, core local riders? Local business and bike shops, SMR, all the above? I donít know. Easy to point fingers. Doesnít really matter now.

    The Squamish comment is interesting. Having spent some time there I agree. You can have a destination and a super hard core locals scene. It speaks for itself. Fascinating place to visit and ride.

    I'm sure at some point they were at the same or similar crossroads. We just didnít solve the equation correctly for some reason.

    The IMBA comment is also interesting. Did you know that STP?

    Anyway, itís hard to see things change. The bike scene here and the former SMBC deserves some heat. That being said, go easy on the rest of the place. Stowe is a great town with great people. Itís a great place to raise a family. The vast majority of us are hard working and are not the $teaux stereotype second/third/fourth homeowners. Thereís a few of us who could still send the fern gap, sadly more in lycra going for the KOM. But their kids are starting to get bored with Florence so look out for the next generation of rogue builders in the woods. Perhaps weíll come full circle before too long whether we like it or not.

    I love Cady for what it is. Perfect out-the-door-hour-of-power at lunch time. A little up, a little down, some rooty tech, a few jumps, a view or two. Nothing too gnarly, donít totally buy into the brown sidewalk description either (but I love the analogy). Is it some rad-gnar backcountry experience? Nope. Avoid on weekends? Yup. Great place to ride with my 9 year old. Absolutely. Miss what it was? Every time. Leave disappointed? No.

    Thankful for what it was, what I have now, and looking forward to what will will come. I miss what it was BITD for sure but not all change has been bad. Hopefully the pendulum will swing back somewhat and eventually weíll have some shit most people canít ride not too far from the trails I session with my family.

    Not looking for a home in Squamish...yet.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    As I said. Still worth a mention as every new trail goes in there is a lost opportunity to develop a more complete riding scene in a town that really like to market it's self for mountain biking. If you don't like to comments....you don't have to read them.
    I come in here to see if there's updates to Adam's Camp. I think we can all agree the access road sucks. Would much rather climb singletrack. But instead you derailed the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockpharmer View Post
    Leave Brewster out of this. Nothing to ride there anyhow.
    shhh.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcusick View Post
    With all due respect I started this thread which was simply to ask about Adams camp 2.0. Yeah I get it that you are pissed at Stowe and I don't completely disagree with you, but telling another poster if they don't like the discussion (that you hijacked long ago) to go elsewhere is beyond absurd.

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    every. single. stowe. thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by adf325 View Post
    This is an interesting thread. Living in the Stowe/Waterbury area for the past 17 years Iíve been witness to the changes. Hereís my two cents.

    Totally agree with Daveís comments re: the evolution/de-evolution of the bike scene in Stowe, butÖ..

    I think there was something more to it.

    When I moved to the area I met up with like minded riders, mostly on big bikes, going for it on the technical features in the area (see Daveís totally sick throw-back vid). Rides were about conquering obstacles, getting sideways and off the ground, having childish fun and not so much about completing a circuit of specified distance/duration.

    Perry Hill was raw.
    Stowe had all kinds of rad shit in the woods.
    Bolton Valley ran the lift once in awhile and it was super fun.

    And then overnight (literally) it all changed. The Stinkyís and Bulitts and Big Hits and Banshees were all traded for XC 29ers because they ďrolled and climbedĒ better.

    I asked my buds ďwhat will you do with that thing when the shit gets realĒ and they all looked at me and blinked.

    And then the trails changed too.

    No doubt the drive to attract mtb tourism has influenced the riding in the area but Iím not convinced there wasnít something else that shifted within the bike community itself. Itís almost like for a hot minute the bike community had a grasp on the mtb progression happening on the west side of the continent at the time (north shore Vancouver, interior BC, Bellingham area, Whistler etc) but then quickly lost it for some reason.

    Never been able to put my finger on it.

    Maybe enough of us got older, injured, started families, or whatever, that the drive to advance technical skill, ride rowdy and raw, go big for the sake of going big, collectively faded. Combine that with course plotted by the SMBC, add a dash of the STRAVA-esque bullshit, top it all with AIG/Vail/SML, and here we are.

    Whatever happened was the result of multiple moving parts. I think what we now have is the result of the rapid progression of rider numbers, tectonic paradigm shifts in riding style influenced by bike design and technology, along with the economics of outdoor tourism. The bike scene here didnít adapt and respond very well in retrospect. Who owns it? SMBC, individual trail builders, core local riders? Local business and bike shops, SMR, all the above? I donít know. Easy to point fingers. Doesnít really matter now.

    The Squamish comment is interesting. Having spent some time there I agree. You can have a destination and a super hard core locals scene. It speaks for itself. Fascinating place to visit and ride.

    I'm sure at some point they were at the same or similar crossroads. We just didnít solve the equation correctly for some reason.

    The IMBA comment is also interesting. Did you know that STP?

    Anyway, itís hard to see things change. The bike scene here and the former SMBC deserves some heat. That being said, go easy on the rest of the place. Stowe is a great town with great people. Itís a great place to raise a family. The vast majority of us are hard working and are not the $teaux stereotype second/third/fourth homeowners. Thereís a few of us who could still send the fern gap, sadly more in lycra going for the KOM. But their kids are starting to get bored with Florence so look out for the next generation of rogue builders in the woods. Perhaps weíll come full circle before too long whether we like it or not.

    I love Cady for what it is. Perfect out-the-door-hour-of-power at lunch time. A little up, a little down, some rooty tech, a few jumps, a view or two. Nothing too gnarly, donít totally buy into the brown sidewalk description either (but I love the analogy). Is it some rad-gnar backcountry experience? Nope. Avoid on weekends? Yup. Great place to ride with my 9 year old. Absolutely. Miss what it was? Every time. Leave disappointed? No.

    Thankful for what it was, what I have now, and looking forward to what will will come. I miss what it was BITD for sure but not all change has been bad. Hopefully the pendulum will swing back somewhat and eventually weíll have some shit most people canít ride not too far from the trails I session with my family.

    Not looking for a home in Squamish...yet.
    Agree with everything you said. Very well written. Cady is what it is. Super fun to go rip around on the singlespeed or with the kiddos or in the winter. Sometimes you want a big day and link all Stowe loops together and just ride bikes in the woods.

    Somedays you want to link HTF and Carse for more of a challenge. Or ride other tech trails close by.

    Every single trail network has its place. Thats what makes Vermont so awesome, we have so many choices with every type of trail. We are lucky here...
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  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by adf325 View Post
    But their kids are starting to get bored with Florence so look out for the next generation of rogue builders in the woods. Perhaps weíll come full circle before too long whether we like it or not.
    Interesting perspective on the younger generation growing up on ďadvancedĒ trails and the effect itíll have.

  57. #57
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    Question, is Adam's Camp 2.0 part of the Trapp system? When I rode Pipeline-Haul Rd-Kimmers-Hardys-Pipeline I was under the impression I didn't need a Trapp pass, did I mess up?

    Are the plans for more in the area? Would love to see a full build out plan, seemed like a lot of terrain in there.
    Don't buy upgrades; ride up grades.

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    Not part of Trapp's, don't need a pass. If we get approval to build above this, I'd expect to need a pass up there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tedo View Post
    Agree with everything you said. Very well written. Cady is what it is. Super fun to go rip around on the singlespeed or with the kiddos or in the winter. Sometimes you want a big day and link all Stowe loops together and just ride bikes in the woods.

    Somedays you want to link HTF and Carse for more of a challenge. Or ride other tech trails close by.

    Every single trail network has its place. Thats what makes Vermont so awesome, we have so many choices with every type of trail. We are lucky here...
    Ahh the voice of reason. The riding in this state is among the best around. Drive an hour in any direction and you've got every type of trail you can think of. Hundreds of miles of trails and organizations that are working to make them better every year. You could live in a suburb of a huge city and be stuck riding the same tired trails with tons of other trail users like I was a few years ago. Be grateful we have what we have here for outdoor recreation.

    As for Trapp, I recall seeing some excavators last time I rode through. Is Trapp building new trails independent of Adam's/SMBC?
    Vermonter - bikes, beers and skis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    As for Trapp, I recall seeing some excavators last time I rode through. Is Trapp building new trails independent of Adam's/SMBC?
    Not to my knowledge. Where did you see it?

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