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  1. #1
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    Trail Etiquette?

    What happened to it here in Utah? I rode up Big Water from the upper lot in Millcreek to get to Dog Lake. I swear no one here seems to know what proper trail etiquette is anymore. I had people blowing by me going down hill as I was climbing. It seems everyone thinks all trails going down are a damn downhill course and they don't seem to care if they come across others riding up or even hikers trying to go up or down.
    I talked to a couple of hikers and they said they get nothing but grief from guys flying downhill when they don't move over. One guy said a biker wanted to start a fight with him since he did not move. I'm sure none of the people I saw today will be reading this, but last I knew cyclist have the least rights on the trails of anyone.
    Once I made it to Dog Lake I thought I would try to make it over to Desolation Lake only to be almost run over by a group of about 9 guys and females in DH race mode. I said something to them and they seemed not to care at all.
    I know some of these groups had to have been taken to the top via a shuttle service since I doubt any of them were riding those tanks up to where I was. I also watch a few blow past a guy on a horse. They did not slow down at all!! This is seriously uncalled for and not to mention pretty damn dangerous given these are multi use trails. These type of people are going to ruin it for all of us. All it takes is for one of these clowns to come around a blind corner and collide into someone coming up or a hiker.
    Come on people, use some common sense here!!
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    The shuttle is a huge part of the problem. The operators should remind everyone that downhill cyclist should slow down (way down like walking speed) if not stop and move over for hikers and uphill riders. I was up there on the 4th and the traffic was insane. In defense of cyclists however I saw about 5 dogs off leash to every 1 on a leash, and I basically never see a bike on odd days when hiking with my dog.

    Once I did a night ride from PC to SLC over the crest on an odd day thinking after 11 pm there would be nobody on the trail who would care if I was biking it one hour early. I got *****ed at by 2 out of the 3 people I saw on the trail.

    Back to your point. Your right I'm just not sure how to get through to "shuttle up and rip it down crowd". Honestly its only like 5% of them that are a problem. The vast majority are very courteous
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  3. #3
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    I can imagine what it was like the 4th. I did not get out at all on that day. Today was busy too with a lot of hikers mainly and the at least 3 groups I ran into when I was riding up. Something needs to be done about this before someone gets hurt.

    I'm only guessing it was shuttle service since I saw a few headed up Big Cottonwood as I was heading toward Millcreek. Plus they were DH bikes which we know are not climbing bikes at all.
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    I am assuming there were shuttle to based on the heavy bikes/Walking/ and dressed in long sleeves while I worried about dehydration after climbing from park city dripping sweat.
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  5. #5
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    That's why I went down to Price for the weekend. I saw one other MTBer out there. It was my wife

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  6. #6
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    We rode Mid Mtn from Silver Lake DV to the top of Pine Cone Ridge at PCMR then to PCMR base on Saturday and it was a zoo of ppl for the most part but it was a day of ppl using trail etiquette every where we rode.

    The resort I sometimes go to that has the rudest riders in Utah is Canyons. I have seen people pushed out of the way being passed and ppl run off trails by down hillers and I figure that is going to be the norm at Mid Vail for the future as they have turned that place into one big gravity trail. Ride up the Ganjala and bomb to the bottom taking no prisoners. They have already taken away quite a few trails that you used to be able to hike on.

    We as riders need to educate. Find out who runs the shuttles and call them out on this. It needs to be told to those that pay to play or is that take the easy way that there are rules that try to make it safe for all that use the trails.
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    You can try and blame the shuttle, the shuttle isn't the problem but ignorant, uneducated riders. Then some are simply just @ssholes and know better. Within the last month I was almost ran over by an out of control rider on the mid mountain trail, and had another rider get upset with me on the Crest because he had to yield to me going uphill. Same with last year on the Crest, I was almost ran over numerous times, but by those coming from the bottom.

    Big Cottonwood does have a trail that you can use big bikes on, and I have a hard time thinking someone with a big bike would take it on the Crest. Despite what most think, those with big bikes aren't going to be shuttling the Crest or riding Mill Creek, but are going to be at resorts and other dedicated trails.

    I agree that we need to educate those riders around us so that they don't ruin it for everyone. But to think that it is just people using the shuttle service is ignorant.

  8. #8
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    It is IMO only a matter of time before all of the Mill Creek trails are closed to bikes. There are just too many people, and the trails were designed in another era - basically no effort was made to make speed-checking features, so any decent rider can go plenty fast enough to be unable to stop around any number of (blind) corners.

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  9. #9
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    Finally, someone is getting on track!

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    It is IMO only a matter of time before all of the Mill Creek trails are closed to bikes. There are just too many people, and the trails were designed in another era - basically no effort was made to make speed-checking features, so any decent rider can go plenty fast enough to be unable to stop around any number of (blind) corners.

    -Walt
    This thread has been way off base, blaming shuttle drivers, DH'rs, whatever. The problems are the trails and the users - all of us. Why bother calling out the dh crowd when my Xc bike lets me bomb some trails faster than a dh bike can ?

    I wonder why people ride up the crest trail ( or spiro, or the ridge or ....)? Yes I know they are multi use multi directional trails, but most people in cars know it's better to avoid the accident rather than be right. Some trails are plain stupid to ride up. If someone knows the crest trail, and rides up it and gets taken out, ???? I am thinking they are a bit thick. Do you think many folks in Moab expect right of way going up portal, chili pepper, hazard, porcupine,...? I feel bad for people who don't know the risks. Visitors, elderly, etc.

    Collisions are now a fact of life on trails. Luckily most are not serious. Bikes are way too fun to tell us to ride slow. We won't. Our trail system is poorly planned, designed and in many cases poorly constructed.

    So if you don't care for it, don't use it. Just don't be surprised when you get taken out expecting to have the right of way. Remember, the rider coming down the hill doesn't want to hit you either. That is how it is now. Asking for courtesy is foolish. There are more courteous riders riding very fast than there are rude riders.

    I am advocating for more trails which do not allow bikes ( our biggest current need ) , more directional trails. Our bikes are too good these days to be safe on multidirectional trails. At least in general, they are not safe. Multi dir trails can be well designed and built. We really do need a directional plan.

    So let's realize what the problem is, and we can start working together on some solutions. More trails without bikes and more trails that are fun and well built and MORE DIRECTIONAL TRAILS!!!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by YRG View Post

    So if you don't care for it, don't use it. Just don't be surprised when you get taken out expecting to have the right of way. Remember, the rider coming down the hill doesn't want to hit you either. That is how it is now. Asking for courtesy is foolish. There are more courteous riders riding very fast than there are rude riders.
    So you are saying the man I rode up on with the horse was in the wrong for being pissed off because guys on DH bikes, and yes they were DH bikes, made no attempt to slow down when they saw him? Had the horse spooked and thrown his rider due to these guy then that is all right because he should not have been riding up that trail in the first place?
    Last I knew cyclist have the least rights on the trails from any other user. We are supposed to yield to both hikers and people on horses. Has been this way since I started riding. I talked to a bunch of different people hiking that day as well as a long conversation with the gentleman on the horse. None of them were happy how they are treated when it comes to cyclist. These type of riders are going to get stuff shut down to all of us and I am not talking about just Millcreek.
    Last I knew as well uphill traffic always has the right of way to downhill traffic. I get wanting to ride fast, but half these guys use no common sense as to when not to do so in certain areas.
    For me riding is not about just riding downhill I like the challenge of climbing up what I am going to ride down after. I am also respectful of other users while I am coming down too. None of these guys and girls I saw on Sunday were at all. Not even as much as an apology. All I am saying as far as the shuttle service they can at least advise their clients that others will be on these trails as well and they should be respectful of those users or risk never being able to ride there again.
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  11. #11
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    Asking someone why the ride a trail a certain way is just as foolish as asking why ride a bike at all. Dirt bikes are faster and more fun. If your coming down the crest and crash into someones kid the responsibly is 100% on you. No judge in the state is even going to consider your fast is more fun and its a mostly downhill trail anyway argument . So If you don't care for going slow enough to stop if you encounter someone you should follow you own advice and not use it. I don't care what you expect on a multiuse trail the uphill rider has the right of way. Again if you think the trail is poorly planned constructed and maintained its you that should not ride it not everyone else.

    A downhill biking only trail is a great idea. Get it built.

    Collisions are not a fact of life on trails. I have been biking for 10+ years and collided with maybe 2 people. Collisions are avoidable.

    I ride up the crest because its the fastest way to ride it. Its a 2.5 hour ride from Millcreek to the radio towers and back. It takes much longer to drive to the top and then find a way to recover the car later. Personally I wonder why people don't just suck it up a little and just climb the trail. Drving almost 100 miles to ride 15 seems silly. Stop being such a bunch of spoiled pussies and ride your bike uphill.
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    A few uphill riders moving over to the up camber side of the trail and sending the reckless downhiller off the trail would solve some of it the hard way. If there is no room and some guy is being clueless that's where they are going. Message sent.

    I agree that education is the issue.

    I used to ride up the crest from Upper Mill Creek, but that was back in the 90s. This past Saturday I did the 5am shuttle crest run, but still passed around 30 climbers pounding their way up. I can't even imagine how busy it is on a Saturday during the day or evening up there in 2014.

    I do think it would go a long way if the Shuttle would give a quick educational speech about etiquette and right of way. Basically not being a dumb ass, because so many folks have to be told, they have no common sense to think of it for themselves.

    It's not the fault of the shuttle operators, nor their responsibility, but they do run the risk of their business going TU if things continue, because trails WILL get shut down. All it takes is one guy to piss off the wrong guy (like a congressman hiking with his kids to Dog Lake, etc) and the ballgame is over.

    Educating cyclists would be a wise business move IMO. But everyone can help this issue.

  13. #13
    YRG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash29r View Post
    So you are saying the man I rode up on with the horse was in the wrong for being pissed off because guys on DH bikes, and yes they were DH bikes, made no attempt to slow down when they saw him? Had the horse spooked and thrown his rider due to these guy then that is all right because he should not have been riding up that trail in the first place?
    No, I am not quite saying that. I know trail courtesy and use it. I am saying that we are all the problem. There are too many of us on a poorly designed trail system. So the guys on dh bikes not trying to stop are a small part of the problem. I am not going to claim that riders on one kind of bike are more polite. 80% of the riders I saw today failed to try to yield the trail. I did not see anything but Xc and trail bikes.

    Having the right of way may mean a lot in court. It doesn't mean much on the trail and if you end up in court you have already lost. I hope I never spend thousands of dollars to try and get some guys beer money. I still go up spiro sometimes, but I know my safety is in my hands. I know if I get hurt it is because of my own stupid choice of trails. If perchance I was to be xtr a lucky and get run down by a super rich dude. Wouldn't that be awesome!

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    One issue is that a DH rider not yielding while going 25mph is far different than a XC rider going 5mph attempting to pass during his descent.

    There are WAY too many reckless and ignorant riders in 2014 that aren't thinking things through. Just send them over the edge.

  15. #15
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    While shuttle operators are not be the cause of the problem, they are profiting off those that are, and they shjould hold some responsibility. They priofit by promoting a DH lifestyle, and should be held accountable to the growing issues brought on by the result of their desire to profit. They may be the ONE opportunity to directly address DH'ers, and the opportunity should not be wasted.

    No, all DH'ers are not the problem, but if you are only DH'ing, you lose the perspective of those of us that earn our descents. Shuttles are making DH only a viable riding style, greatly increasing the DH only traffic, and I feel they should be brought to bear for the impact they are having on the sport. Something as simple as a "Check here to acknowledge that uphill riders, pedestrians, and equestrians have right of way" box during card approval can go a long way towards informing without being disruptive to the shuttlers or shuttlees.
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    Just to be clear, I was not blaming the downhill race crowd. While there were a few of those bikes too, most were on AM and trail bikes. I only said they were treating every downhill like it was their private race course which given the nature of the trails obviously is not. All I am saying as far as the shuttle services is they could at least mention to the clients they are hauling up that they should exhibit proper trail etiquette while doing their ride. It would be in their best interest to do so since if the trails close they will no longer have any business to run. Was bad enough almost getting ran over multiple times, but the thing that irritated me the most was how the guys just blew by the guy on the horse with no consideration at all of what could have happened. Not to mention how upset most hikers are when they come in contact with people on bikes. Most I talked to on Sunday are not happy with the way things are now. It would only take a few of them to go to some one to get things shut down to bikes period.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by YRG View Post
    This thread has been way off base, blaming shuttle drivers, DH'rs, whatever. The problems are the trails and the users - all of us. Why bother calling out the dh crowd when my Xc bike lets me bomb some trails faster than a dh bike can ?

    I wonder why people ride up the crest trail ( or spiro, or the ridge or ....)? Yes I know they are multi use multi directional trails, but most people in cars know it's better to avoid the accident rather than be right. Some trails are plain stupid to ride up. If someone knows the crest trail, and rides up it and gets taken out, ???? I am thinking they are a bit thick. Do you think many folks in Moab expect right of way going up portal, chili pepper, hazard, porcupine,...? I feel bad for people who don't know the risks. Visitors, elderly, etc.

    Collisions are now a fact of life on trails. Luckily most are not serious. Bikes are way too fun to tell us to ride slow. We won't. Our trail system is poorly planned, designed and in many cases poorly constructed.

    So if you don't care for it, don't use it. Just don't be surprised when you get taken out expecting to have the right of way. Remember, the rider coming down the hill doesn't want to hit you either. That is how it is now. Asking for courtesy is foolish. There are more courteous riders riding very fast than there are rude riders.

    I am advocating for more trails which do not allow bikes ( our biggest current need ) , more directional trails. Our bikes are too good these days to be safe on multidirectional trails. At least in general, they are not safe. Multi dir trails can be well designed and built. We really do need a directional plan.

    So let's realize what the problem is, and we can start working together on some solutions. More trails without bikes and more trails that are fun and well built and MORE DIRECTIONAL TRAILS!!!
    It is not the trails fault, it isn't the bikes fault. It is the riders fault. Time to take personal accountability. I have never, ever run into someone. I've come close but I am always aware and make a conscious effort to ride in a manner that allows me to avoid uphill riders and other trail users. More trails without bikes? Are you kidding me? You do realize that most trails, in most areas, are off limits to bikes? We (I) have no desire to give up any more of our precious trails. It comes down to education of riders. You can either do it by talking to them, or as UtahJohn mentioned (and I have done many times), forcing them off the trail at high speed. If we don't police our own, someone else will and we won't like the results, guaranteed. Fortunately many of our upcoming riders these days are starting in the NICA leagues where they are learning trail courtesy. Eventually they will become adults who can get involved in their own communities and hopefully overcome the damge caused by the less educated.
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  18. #18
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    Dude I enduro strava the sh*t out of millcreek. It's so sick.






    But I always stop for hikers/uphill riders. No matter how dumb it is that you're climbing the most popular downhill route in the entire Wasatch.

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    its pretty simple, on multi use trails downhill traffic has to yield to uphill traffic, hikers, and horses.

    If someone doesn't obey the etiquette, educate them. No need to be a dick about it or blame a certain user group. Some people just don't know.

    ...more directional trails!!

  20. #20
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    It's worth mentioning that the opportunity exists for multiple trails connecting PC to the valley on the north side of Parley's, too - in fact, SLC got as far as approving a plan for a couple of them back in 2007. Then the recession put trails on the back burner and nothing further happened. You can read about it here:
    Emigration Canyon Trails Master Plan Parks and Recreation Planning - Salt Lake County
    Proposed trail map direct link: http://slco.org/recreation/planning/...erred_Trai.pdf

    Obviously this wouldn't be as much elevation/shuttling as the Crest. But it would be a great shuttle that you could do for $4 on the PC/SLC link bus and finish down Bobsled or something!

    Some additional advocacy would help get that back on the radar and I'm a big fan of building more trails when you have overuse problems, rather than closing them to user groups. But that's the path we're probably on right now.

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  21. #21
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    Wow.....thought I was on the Front Range forum for a minute.


    Reality is the shuttle companies do put more pressure on trails....whether people like it or not, it is a fact. I also agree with some of the previous comments regarding a company profiting off what is a public resource. They should hold some accountability and be more proactive in educating people. I get the personal accountability argument, but this isn't private land people are shuttling on.

    When I lived in SLC I would ride the Crest as a loop parking at Mill D riding up to Guardsmen and than climbing out of Mill Creek at Dog Lake back to Mill D (never was a big fan of pipeline). I think I got the names right it has been 10 years since I rode the Crest last.

  22. #22
    YRG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    It is not the trails fault, it isn't the bikes fault. It is the riders fault. Time to take personal accountability. I have never, ever run into someone. I've come close but I am always aware and make a conscious effort to ride in a manner that allows me to avoid uphill riders and other trail users. More trails without bikes? Are you kidding me? You do realize that most trails, in most areas, are off limits to bikes? We (I) have no desire to give up any more of our precious trails. It comes down to education of riders. You can either do it by talking to them, or as UtahJohn mentioned (and I have done many times), forcing them off the trail at high speed. If we don't police our own, someone else will and we won't like the results, guaranteed. Fortunately many of our upcoming riders these days are starting in the NICA leagues where they are learning trail courtesy. Eventually they will become adults who can get involved in their own communities and hopefully overcome the damge caused by the less educated.
    Sounds like you are being more than your share of the problem. Also, this conversation is not about taking personal responsibility. I will bet everyone posting to this thread believes they do, this is more about how some people want others to behave the way they want. I don't believe that will work.

    I do agree that education is part of the solution, by itself education will fail.

    Having trail nazis is a stupid idea in every possible way.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by steadyflow View Post
    Wow.....thought I was on the Front Range forum for a minute.
    As long as we never end up like the vitriol in the Arizona thread we are good. That place is crazy.

  24. #24
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    I always TRY to slow down when there is an uphill trail user whilst I am going downhill. Likewise, if there is a hiker or horse rider or slow biker in front of me going the same direction as me - I always notify them that I will need to pass at some point - and I wait until they let me.

    The real problem though is that too many people are @ssholes - on both sides of the table.

    a few examples:

    1. A few weeks ago I was riding the Crest. On the way down from the crest to the big water trail (the semi-dirt road from the ridge down to the 3 way intersection) there was a dude riding up the trail. Very well could have been one of you. I was riding down fairly fast (as this is a buffed out section) - I came around a long bend and noticed an uphill rider. This section of trail is fairly wide, but does get narrow at spots due to erosion. I slowed down but underestimated the time I would to slow down to a walking pace and likewise underestimated how narrow the trail would become where I was passing him. I verbally apologized to him that I was not going slow enough as I passed him. He graciously said "no problem - it happens to the best of us". THIS GUY WAS NOT AN @sshole.

    2. A few months ago I was riding Road to WOS. Typically the counter-clockwise route is the most popular. As I was on the decent (I have never seen an uphill rider (going clockwise) on this part of the trail, I came around a switchback and barely had enough time to slow down for an uphill rider. I did come to a complete stop (as this is a fairly narrow trail) but was not fully stopped until I was directly next to him. He decided that this was not good enough and started yelling at me. I told him to stop being an @sshole and moved on. I believe he was partly mad solely because I was wearing elbow pads so in his mind I was a "downhiller". THIS GUY WAS AN @sshole

    Above are almost identical instances - one guy decided to be [email protected], the other one realized what happened and let it go. Both times my intentions were pure.

    The above scenarios have caused me to wonder - when I am wearing a full DH kit on a trail (which I wasn't in either scenario) are other trails users more or less afraid of me - and does that change their perception of how fast I am going/how much control I have?

    Anyway - that is a tangent... So ... while I agree with you that there are some dangerous users on the trail ... there are also some overly cautious and overly sensitive @ssholes on the trail.

    I feel like I was taking this post a different direction - got diverted - and now I am not sure what else I was going to say - so i'll end it here...

  25. #25
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    Good thing they weren't on trail bikes. Trail bikes are considerably faster than DH bikes on trails like the Crest.

    I once saw a group of guys on DH bikes too, and boy did it make me real mad. A couple of them had tattoos, and at least one had some sort of facial hair "goat-tee". At one point I think i even saw a can of Red Bull and it was right about then that I just about LOST IT. I thought for sure they were going to run straight into me, but apparently their wheels were equipped with double rotors and they some how avoided me, but boy was I ready to let them have it. No respect I tell ya. Things were WAY different when I moved here way back in 2007.

    Did you happen to ask the person on the horse what the hell he was doing in Big Cottonwood Canyon, or was he grandfathered in and our watershed laws don't apply to him/her?

    edit: total disclosure, I'm not exactly certain what kind of bikes they were on but they looked much burlier and more complicated than my Fezzari hardtail, so I assume they must have been FULL BLOWN DH MACHINES weighing at least 60lbs each.

  26. #26
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    Re: Trail Etiquette?

    Quote Originally Posted by OMZ View Post
    Good thing they weren't on trail bikes. Trail bikes are considerably faster than DH bikes on trails like the Crest.

    I once saw a group of guys on DH bikes too, and boy did it make me real mad. A couple of them had tattoos, and at least one had some sort of facial hair "goat-tee". At one point I think i even saw a can of Red Bull and it was right about then that I just about LOST IT. I thought for sure they were going to run straight into me, but apparently their wheels were equipped with double rotors and they some how avoided me, but boy was I ready to let them have it. No respect I tell ya. Things were WAY different when I moved here way back in 2007.

    Did you happen to ask the person on the horse what the hell he was doing in Big Cottonwood Canyon, or was he grandfathered in and our watershed laws don't apply to him/her?

    edit: total disclosure, I'm not exactly certain what kind of bikes they were on but they looked much burlier and more complicated than my Fezzari hardtail, so I assume they must have been FULL BLOWN DH MACHINES weighing at least 60lbs each.
    Maybe they were e-bikes! Dun dun DUNNNNN!

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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash29r View Post
    Just to be clear, I was not blaming the downhill race crowd. While there were a few of those bikes too, most were on AM and trail bikes. I only said they were treating every downhill like it was their private race course which given the nature of the trails obviously is not. All I am saying as far as the shuttle services is they could at least mention to the clients they are hauling up that they should exhibit proper trail etiquette while doing their ride. It would be in their best interest to do so since if the trails close they will no longer have any business to run. Was bad enough almost getting ran over multiple times, but the thing that irritated me the most was how the guys just blew by the guy on the horse with no consideration at all of what could have happened. Not to mention how upset most hikers are when they come in contact with people on bikes. Most I talked to on Sunday are not happy with the way things are now. It would only take a few of them to go to some one to get things shut down to bikes period.
    I should clarify as well. People that like to ride down the hill only, regardless of what bike they ride.
    I will suffer no butt-hurt fools!

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    This is pretty simple. People take responsibility for their actions. Regardless of trail design, regardless of level of crowding, if everyone would just use their heads, it would work out - it's not, "rocket surgery". So, fat f#&king chance!

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    [QUOTE=Flash29r;11308437]What happened to it here in Utah? I rode up Big Water from the upper lot in Millcreek to get to Dog Lake. I swear no one here seems to know what proper trail etiquette is anymore. I had people blowing by me going down hill as I was climbing. It seems everyone thinks all trails going down are a damn downhill course and they don't seem to care if they come across others riding up or even hikers trying to go up or down.
    I talked to a couple of hikers and they said they get nothing but grief from guys flying downhill when they don't move over. One guy said a biker wanted to start a fight with him since he did not move. I'm sure none of the people I saw today will be reading this, but last I knew cyclist have the least rights on the trails of anyone.
    Once I made it to Dog Lake I thought I would try to make it over to Desolation Lake only to be almost run over by a group of about 9 guys and females in DH race mode. I said something to them and they seemed not to care at all.
    I know some of these groups had to have been taken to the top via a shuttle service since I doubt any of them were riding those tanks up to where I was. I also watch a few blow past a guy on a horse. They did not slow down at all!! This is seriously uncalled for and not to mention pretty damn dangerous given these are multi use trails. These type of people are going to ruin it for all of us. All it takes is for one of these clowns to come around a blind corner and collide into someone coming up or a hiker.
    Come on people, use some common sense here!![/QUOTE

    blaming shuttles drivers is like blaming the gun store for school shootings. wake up people. shuttle drivers telling people to slow down?????come on WTF is this ??? people take responsibility for their own actions. this is not the burden of shuttle companies...JFC. u people make me want to punch u in the face out of your stupidity...

    have you been to guardsman pass and seen the 30 to 50 cars parked with da kine pads on pick up trucks and almost 75% all bike racks...yaaaa blame the shuttle. if the the shuttle wasn't there.. there would be 100 cars. people drive up there REGARDLESS of a company. this is a freaking joke I cant believe im wasting my time replying to such garbage. you people need to educate yourselves and stop blaming everyone but yourself. as for trail etiquette???? another joke. if you don't want to get hit by a dher then don't freaking ride the most popular trail in the Wasatch on the busiest day of the year. use what brain cells you have left and get the hell outta the way. common sense in this thread is non existent...keep blaming cars, shuttles, drivers, crazy dhers, and the lame trail system...if you don't like it then get the F^&%&^% off the mtn.

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    let me guess, first and last post?

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    [QUOTE=stravaKOM;11329614]
    Quote Originally Posted by Flash29r View Post
    What happened to it here in Utah? I rode up Big Water from the upper lot in Millcreek to get to Dog Lake. I swear no one here seems to know what proper trail etiquette is anymore. I had people blowing by me going down hill as I was climbing. It seems everyone thinks all trails going down are a damn downhill course and they don't seem to care if they come across others riding up or even hikers trying to go up or down.
    I talked to a couple of hikers and they said they get nothing but grief from guys flying downhill when they don't move over. One guy said a biker wanted to start a fight with him since he did not move. I'm sure none of the people I saw today will be reading this, but last I knew cyclist have the least rights on the trails of anyone.
    Once I made it to Dog Lake I thought I would try to make it over to Desolation Lake only to be almost run over by a group of about 9 guys and females in DH race mode. I said something to them and they seemed not to care at all.
    I know some of these groups had to have been taken to the top via a shuttle service since I doubt any of them were riding those tanks up to where I was. I also watch a few blow past a guy on a horse. They did not slow down at all!! This is seriously uncalled for and not to mention pretty damn dangerous given these are multi use trails. These type of people are going to ruin it for all of us. All it takes is for one of these clowns to come around a blind corner and collide into someone coming up or a hiker.
    Come on people, use some common sense here!![/QUOTE

    blaming shuttles drivers is like blaming the gun store for school shootings. wake up people. shuttle drivers telling people to slow down?????come on WTF is this ??? people take responsibility for their own actions. this is not the burden of shuttle companies...JFC. u people make me want to punch u in the face out of your stupidity...

    have you been to guardsman pass and seen the 30 to 50 cars parked with da kine pads on pick up trucks and almost 75% all bike racks...yaaaa blame the shuttle. if the the shuttle wasn't there.. there would be 100 cars. people drive up there REGARDLESS of a company. this is a freaking joke I cant believe im wasting my time replying to such garbage. you people need to educate yourselves and stop blaming everyone but yourself. as for trail etiquette???? another joke. if you don't want to get hit by a dher then don't freaking ride the most popular trail in the Wasatch on the busiest day of the year. use what brain cells you have left and get the hell outta the way. common sense in this thread is non existent...keep blaming cars, shuttles, drivers, crazy dhers, and the lame trail system...if you don't like it then get the F^&%&^% off the mtn.
    I am also pretty sure that the shuttle drivers are not supposed to talk about the trail whatsoever - or they'd be responsible as trail guides and would have to pay the NFS as guides and would need to be insured as guides - instead they are simply a taxi service...I could be 100% wrong on this though.

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    I have not ridden millcreek in years because of all the mixed use I have nearly gotten into fights with cyclists on dog days and dog walkers on cycle days. Now I live in Tooele and have the trails to myself. I just need to get off my butt and use them. Good post and it lets me know I should stay the hell out of millcreek.

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    Must be great having all 10 miles of ST in Tooele all to yourself. The trails are less crowded by people but more crowded by Cattle and ****. Tooele has potential but even implying its better for bikng is crazy.
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    It is mostly DT there is far more than 10 miles of ST and not a whole lot of cattle. Rio Tinto pretty much owns the mountain range. Better trails no but a trip to to the wasatch is almost an hour each way 4 gallons or so of gas the local trails well I ride about 1.6 miles of pavement to hit dirt. The best trails in a way are not the ones at Whistler or Deer Valley they are the ones you ride with a smile on your face. While it's nice to have a trail to yourself I prefer to ride with friends and I don't get enough of that here.

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    You know call me old school but just the word "etiquette" shold speak for itself. Asking for etiquette is a good way to avoid collisions with bikers, hikers, horses and all types of living breathing things. In California its a good way to also keep trails open....I noticed 3 years ago when I moved here that alot of my friends just had no idea about trail etiquette and some of them have been riding almost longer than I have.

    Blame the riders and blame the community for not taking it into our own hands to educate all on proper trail etiquette.

    I will guarantee this problem will get worse until people take time to learn etiquette.

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    Here is how I feel yes there are some standard etiquette but there is still more to it than that, I rarely ride alone but even when I am up hill on some narrow single track when I I pull over for the DH rider unless there is room for both of us. If I see three four or more guys I just get out of the way. I also callout as I pass TWO MORE to let the rider hiker what ever know that there riders in my party behind me. When there is a slower rider in front I call out to let them know I am there. Not just ON YOUR RIGHT! when there is room to pass but BEHIND YOU. We all started somewhere we all take the new trail slower then the known. If you are on my six and want to go faster I rather get out of the way even if I have to stop in the brush than slow you down for long.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedonistic View Post
    Here is how I feel yes there are some standard etiquette but there is still more to it than that, I rarely ride alone but even when I am up hill on some narrow single track when I I pull over for the DH rider unless there is room for both of us. If I see three four or more guys I just get out of the way. I also callout as I pass TWO MORE to let the rider hiker what ever know that there riders in my party behind me. When there is a slower rider in front I call out to let them know I am there. Not just ON YOUR RIGHT! when there is room to pass but BEHIND YOU. We all started somewhere we all take the new trail slower then the known. If you are on my six and want to go faster I rather get out of the way even if I have to stop in the brush than slow you down for long.

    You're part of the problem...the uphill rider has the right of way - take it. When you yield to the DH guy you just cause confusion especially when people like me expect to be yielded TO while climbing.

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    Don't yield if you are going uphill, that is perpetuating the problem and making things worse, as Ahi said.

    One big mistake I see a lot of is downhill riders yielding on the down slope part of the trail (my opinion). On the high side you can get out of the way more, and if the rider clips you THEY are the one going down the hill, not you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    It's worth mentioning that the opportunity exists for multiple trails connecting PC to the valley on the north side of Parley's, too - in fact, SLC got as far as approving a plan for a couple of them back in 2007. Then the recession put trails on the back burner and nothing further happened. You can read about it here:
    Emigration Canyon Trails Master Plan Parks and Recreation Planning - Salt Lake County
    Proposed trail map direct link: http://slco.org/recreation/planning/...erred_Trai.pdf

    Obviously this wouldn't be as much elevation/shuttling as the Crest. But it would be a great shuttle that you could do for $4 on the PC/SLC link bus and finish down Bobsled or something!

    Some additional advocacy would help get that back on the radar and I'm a big fan of building more trails when you have overuse problems, rather than closing them to user groups. But that's the path we're probably on right now.

    -Walt
    I am very interested in finding a way to push these trails back to the forefront

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    This thread reminds me of a day on Armstrong when some woman complained to me that my Heckler was too big of a bike for Armstrong/Mid Mountain and had no business being there. According to her, it was too big, too heavy and too fast for trails like that... :/

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    Is there an advocacy group of any kind in SLC? I'm not sure who the best person to talk to would be. And I'm not sure how much interest there is in reviving the plan, but it would certainly be cool. There is a ton of great terrain that is untapped except by hunters back there.

    -Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by 123ski View Post
    I am very interested in finding a way to push these trails back to the forefront

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Is there an advocacy group of any kind in SLC? I'm not sure who the best person to talk to would be. And I'm not sure how much interest there is in reviving the plan, but it would certainly be cool. There is a ton of great terrain that is untapped except by hunters back there.

    -Walt
    found these guys ... don't know much about 'em.

    the basin rec group seem a bit more established, but probably doesn't have jurisdiction in emigration/big mountain. ( but maybe? or maybe they could help? )

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    Re: Trail Etiquette?

    Why are people assuming these "DH" bikers are being shuttled? And so what?

    Some people like to bike up hills and some people like to bike downhills.

    I used to ride a 45 pound DH bike and majority of the time we rode and pushed our bikes to the top. Believe it or not but having two drivers isn't always possible.

    I've had uphillers walking their bike up through a rock garden while im riding down. Like someone said before... Some trails are just plain stupid to bike up. I personally get annoyed when trails that are commonly known as a downward trail and find uphillers on it.

    I'm very courteous on the trails and yielding is very situational.

    Common courtesy goes both ways!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheezy View Post
    Common courtesy goes both ways!
    Sing it sistah! New proposed rule of thumb: Don't Be a Douche.

    This would solve 99% of trail conflicts amongst all user groups.

    Sidebar - Strava has seriously put a dent in my newly proposed rule.

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    Too many people would rather be right than safe. If you get hurt because you are motivated to stand up for your trail use rights then you are a moron. Do you teach your kids to cross the street without making sure cars are coming just because they have the right of way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slcpunk View Post
    found these guys ... don't know much about 'em.

    the basin rec group seem a bit more established, but probably doesn't have jurisdiction in emigration/big mountain. ( but maybe? or maybe they could help? )
    There is a SL Valley advocacy group/IMBA affiliate in the talking-about-planning-stages at the moment. If anyone is seriously interested about getting involved at a leadership/board level (it's gonna be a bit time and energy consuming), send me a PM.

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    AFAIK, Basin Rec/Mtn Trails is just Summit County. So no Emigration Canyon.

    I keep thinking about bugging them about Alexander Creek, though. That would be the most popular trail in PC if it was rebuilt to actually have, you know...turns. With some work you could easily have a Bobsled-like semi-flow trail - but 5 miles long and shuttleable.

    -Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by slcpunk View Post
    found these guys ... don't know much about 'em.

    the basin rec group seem a bit more established, but probably doesn't have jurisdiction in emigration/big mountain. ( but maybe? or maybe they could help? )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    AFAIK, Basin Rec/Mtn Trails is just Summit County. So no Emigration Canyon.

    I keep thinking about bugging them about Alexander Creek, though. That would be the most popular trail in PC if it was rebuilt to actually have, you know...turns. With some work you could easily have a Bobsled-like semi-flow trail - but 5 miles long and shuttleable.

    -Walt
    Oh Walt! You're so reasonable and your posts are almost always spot on...but....with all due respect,

    shuttleable is the least important "feature" I could think of!

    Want a trail to be versitable and link up other things and add to our network? Then we don't want it to be shuttleable ... because that just means extra pressure and wear and tear and user conflict. Look at the Crest, pretty much had to take it out of my riding options because its such a mess - especially on weekends and after 5pm on weekdays. ( basically whenever I can ride )

    Shuttle type trails are great in ski resorts - let people ride the lifts and use purpose built trails. They can learn to mountain bike and skid and brake too late into corners and make cool enduro style moves ( tail whip! ) to their heart's content. It won't bother anyone - and its more fun because you know you're on a DH specific trail and don't have to worry about families walking their dog, or other riders going *gasp* uphill. Its a great place for that type of thing. But make a "shuttleable" trail out in the wild, and you've created an Etiquette conundrum - it begs to be ridden like a DH trail, but its open to all sorts of use. Conflict guaranteed.

    Now, use Alexander creek to make a rideable loop with Big Mountain Pass/Mormon Pioneer and connect to the Jeremy Ranch trails - then you have something worth putting effort into!

    On that note, we need a connector from the bottom of the Mo-Pi trail in East Canyon up to flying dog or over to 24-7, to make that connection a bit better too.

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    Yeah, that's all true, but my point was that since people are already shuttling, spreading out the use is a good thing. The whole Bald/Big mountain area could use a bunch more trails (and a bunch of work on the ones that are there). So we're on the same page.

    -W

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    Quote Originally Posted by slcpunk View Post
    Oh Walt! You're so reasonable and your posts are almost always spot on...but....with all due respect,

    shuttleable is the least important "feature" I could think of!

    Want a trail to be versitable and link up other things and add to our network? Then we don't want it to be shuttleable ... because that just means extra pressure and wear and tear and user conflict. Look at the Crest, pretty much had to take it out of my riding options because its such a mess - especially on weekends and after 5pm on weekdays. ( basically whenever I can ride )

    Shuttle type trails are great in ski resorts - let people ride the lifts and use purpose built trails. They can learn to mountain bike and skid and brake too late into corners and make cool enduro style moves ( tail whip! ) to their heart's content. It won't bother anyone - and its more fun because you know you're on a DH specific trail and don't have to worry about families walking their dog, or other riders going *gasp* uphill. Its a great place for that type of thing. But make a "shuttleable" trail out in the wild, and you've created an Etiquette conundrum - it begs to be ridden like a DH trail, but its open to all sorts of use. Conflict guaranteed.

    Now, use Alexander creek to make a rideable loop with Big Mountain Pass/Mormon Pioneer and connect to the Jeremy Ranch trails - then you have something worth putting effort into!

    On that note, we need a connector from the bottom of the Mo-Pi trail in East Canyon up to flying dog or over to 24-7, to make that connection a bit better too.
    Dude,
    you are so wrong. In fact, you have it completely backwards. Shuttle trails are fine. User conflict happens on well traveled, populated non directional trails. XC bikes today are way fast on descents these days. Everybody, who can ride, rides fast going down. EVERYBODY! So the trail you are asking for is just perpetuating the problem.

    Look at New Zealand. They have some non directional trails. But they also have routes specific to climbing and much more for descending. Many of the climbs are wide enough to ride abreast (social and fun). With bike areas (not parks but bike specific trails), there are plenty of directional downhill choices the conflicts all but disappear.
    Our trail system built on endless connections without thought to what a rider can do was excusable when bikes were rigid. Now it is inexcusable.

    What you will see (finally) in Utah, is people who know what they are talking about, will be talking about directional trails.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Yeah, that's all true, but my point was that since people are already shuttling, spreading out the use is a good thing. The whole Bald/Big mountain area could use a bunch more trails (and a bunch of work on the ones that are there). So we're on the same page.

    -W
    did you get my email about advocacy group contacts for those SLC/Emmigration trails?

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    always fair.

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    point taken. i'm not against directional trails. i'm just sore because shuttling opens up trails to people that otherwise wouldn't be there. that's life, and I know its not wrong...but I still like to complain about it. to me, shuttling is weak (assuming we're talking about a trail that has easy options for climbing) ... what else can I say about it. everyone wants easy. i think you should have to earn it. I know that's not a tenable position, or a universal truth ... still doesn't change the way i feel.

    I do think people that climbed up something will tend to be more respectful on the way down because they know what its like. Also, if you learned to ride by riding up what you go down, then you probably learned some etiquette. If your only exprience is jumping out of a car, plugging in your head phones and screaming down some trail, it seems less likely that you might have that attitude. Sure, there will be exceptions to the rule (both ways - I can't claim to have never nearly run into an uphill rider/hiker/dog/infant/baby seal) but I think its reasonable to assume that maybe there is some truth to that generalization.

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    Yeah, sorry - got it. I'll try to get back to you soon. I am slammed with a newborn and a 2 year old in the house and my normal work so as lame as it is, I can't do an serious trail advocacy for the near future.

    BTW, I think your generalizations about shuttling are mostly true BUT as a pure trails/public policy standpoint, I'd rather have the solution be more trails that suit that style of riding to take pressure off stuff (like Millcreek) that does not, rather than eventual user bans (trust me, the folks who want to ride up and down will get banned along with all the other bikes).

    Alexander creek is not particularly scenic (it's a natural gas pipeline access road!), it has very little traffic (I bet it sees a couple hikers a week on the upper 3/4 of the trail), and it's right next to an interstate highway. I'd rather have shuttlers there (and those who want to earn their turns) than in Millcreek running over hikers and causing problems.

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Yeah, sorry - got it. I'll try to get back to you soon. I am slammed with a newborn and a 2 year old in the house and my normal work so as lame as it is, I can't do an serious trail advocacy for the near future.

    BTW, I think your generalizations about shuttling are mostly true BUT as a pure trails/public policy standpoint, I'd rather have the solution be more trails that suit that style of riding to take pressure off stuff (like Millcreek) that does not, rather than eventual user bans (trust me, the folks who want to ride up and down will get banned along with all the other bikes).

    Alexander creek is not particularly scenic (it's a natural gas pipeline access road!), it has very little traffic (I bet it sees a couple hikers a week on the upper 3/4 of the trail), and it's right next to an interstate highway. I'd rather have shuttlers there (and those who want to earn their turns) than in Millcreek running over hikers and causing problems.

    -Walt
    I completely agree about the shuttling part - think it was someone else that mentioned they don't care about shuttling ... maybe you were talking to him tho.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by 123ski View Post
    I completely agree about the shuttling part - think it was someone else that mentioned they don't care about shuttling ... maybe you were talking to him tho.
    ha, yeah, i think that was me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    BTW, I think your generalizations about shuttling are mostly true BUT as a pure trails/public policy standpoint, I'd rather have the solution be more trails that suit that style of riding to take pressure off stuff (like Millcreek) that does not, rather than eventual user bans (trust me, the folks who want to ride up and down will get banned along with all the other bikes).
    More trails will always help the situtation. I doubt much will ever change the pressure the Crest gets from the shuttle crowd - its just too tempting and easy. There is no way to regulate how the trail is used. ( we already have the odd/even thing ... like you said, the only next step would unfortunately be "no bikes" )

    Going way back up in the thread, the shuttle drivers should absolutely talk about how to ride the trail and trail ettiquette. That might help a bit. ( for all I know, they do already ) Drilling the message in about sharing the trail and realizing that its not a trail in a bike park, but a multi-use trail could be best medicine we have.

  57. #57
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    Today was a much more pleasant ride up Millcreek then when I initially started this post. Everyone and I mean everyone was polite today and was showing proper etiquette. It restored my hope in that all is not lost. Must have just been the influx of people on a holiday weekend and no one caring about anything other then their ride.
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  58. #58
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    The vast majority of users I have encountered on the trails were nice and polite.
    I don't use Strava. Don't need an application to tell me I am slow because I already know.

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    Never ridden Price but would love to. Where are the trailheads from town?

    Quote Originally Posted by dgw2jr View Post
    That's why I went down to Price for the weekend. I saw one other MTBer out there. It was my wife

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    OVER the rocks, not around

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanyonDad View Post
    Never ridden Price but would love to. Where are the trailheads from town?
    39.622828,-110.813465

    Trail Etiquette?-price-th.jpg
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    Might save you a trip. Everyone I know who has driven south to ride the trails in Price has regretted it, myself included.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

  62. #62
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    Re: Trail Etiquette?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Might save you a trip. Everyone I know who has driven south to ride the trails in Price has regretted it, myself included.
    One good thing about Price though: no crowds.
    The leg bone's connected to the Cash Bone!

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    Slightly back on topic...

    My wife and I made another attempt to ride Mid-mountain on Saturday morning. Overall, etiquette was very good. Traffic was insane though. We were stopping every hundred feet or so to let hikers pass like good lil MTBers. At one point we stopped to let a very old woman pass by and we thought "wow good for her ". As soon as she passed, a group of about a dozen college-aged hikers came up behind us, stopped right next to us (crowding really) so they could holler at their friends back at the lodge. So much for peace and quiet in the woods. They moved on and we saw more people coming down the trail ahead of us. At this point, we decided to call it quits and turned around. Back at the trail head, a young man asked us for loop recommendations. We simply recommended he find somewhere else to ride because if he was looking to "get his flow on", it was not going to happen here. He was mildly discouraged but he had a backup plan and headed out.

    I can see how etiquette and manners would suffer under these conditions. It's like putting cats in a bag. After we left I got to thinking what if there was a service or feature of an existing service that would allow people to view or report trail traffic conditions in close to real time? Strava already has real-time segments so they can tell who is where at what time. They could add the ability to manually check in with a traffic rating or something.
    The leg bone's connected to the Cash Bone!

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    This Summer I rode Mid Mountain a lot. I made sure to get out there EARLY, typically on trail no later than 6am. I ride it from South to North, and often didn't see another rider until Iron Mountain area. It also put me through the Canyons before the lifts opened, so nobody there either.

    I know it gets ridiculous later on. Unfortunately the sun is rising later and getting out there that early is not really going to be an option any more.

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    I'm with the OP on this matter. The crest is a complete mess. It's the same type of d-bags I tired of at Snowbird and finally quit skiing there and move to 100% back country. I live at the bottom of millcreek canyon and ride all over the place up there. The shuttle ability is a big part of the problem. None of those riders would be there without it. I do it as a loop from my house and it's a beast of a climb up BCC. Last time i rode it on the way down a group of 3 riders proceeded to try to tell a climber that they shouldn't be going uphill on the trail. They basically told em to f-off. Same I would have done.

    Utah has lots of trails. If you want a downhill racecourse there are plenty to choose from. There are 6 ski resorts with downhill options open in the summer. The crest is not one of them.

    Maybe just a few signs that it's a 2 way trail, be courteous and give the right of way to uphill traffic. Another thing that might help would be obstacles to act as speed bumps. Easy as can be to put in Three staggered wood fence posts every mile or so would do wonders to slow traffic down - think a horse fence walkthrough. Not sure what else to. Maybe organize a group of buddies to ride uphill on busy days about 10 minutes apart - so there will start to be constant uphill traffic for a while and it might convince the problem children to go somehwere else?

    If something doesn't change I think it's reasonably likely that it's going to be closed. There will be fights or collisions, someone will get seriously injured, and the fs will close the trail to bikes.

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    I'd have replied that I'm too big and too heavy for the trails too LOL.

    "What's the matter, you have a problem with fat people?"

    Quote Originally Posted by ski_adk View Post
    This thread reminds me of a day on Armstrong when some woman complained to me that my Heckler was too big of a bike for Armstrong/Mid Mountain and had no business being there. According to her, it was too big, too heavy and too fast for trails like that... :/

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    "Maybe organize a group of buddies to ride uphill on busy days about 10 minutes apart - so there will start to be constant uphill traffic"
    Oh, so it would be just like the rest of the trails in Park City.

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    Re: Trail Etiquette?

    Quote Originally Posted by dmar123 View Post
    Oh, so it would be just like the rest of the trails in Park City.
    Yea it should be called the only IMBA Gold Stand On The Side Of The Trail And Wait Center in the world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmar123 View Post
    Oh, so it would be just like the rest of the trails in Park City.
    That's the nature of 2 way trails with 2 million people... If the current shuttle crowd who think it's a downhill race course continue it'll be closed to bike traffic soon enough. And of course it's a small group of problem children - most of the riders are pretty good about keeping it under control etc. But it just takes one good collision.

    There are plenty of downhill trails. Snowbird has a new one - plus if your a serious cyclist the climb is a challenge too, and if not the tram is only $10. There's the bobsled - easy climb, kinda washed out this weekend, but downhill only. Solitude has a number of donwhill only trails and pretty low useage - and it's free to ride uphill. Lots of options in PC too. If that's what you're looking for why don't you use them? Or get a crew together, organize with the forest service, bring you shovels and build a new downhill trail. The forest service may be easier to work with than you think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbtute View Post
    That's the nature of 2 way trails with 2 million people...
    exactly, recognizing the nature of the trail and using a little common sense will go a long way...

    The Nature of the Crest trail is the 99.9% of folks who ride it travel from South to North whether they pedal up on their own from a different trail or shuttle. If you decide to ride the crest from North to South expect a lot of traffic heading in the opposite direction. Its the nature of the trail.

    This weekend I rode up from pc, did the crest, and descended via the canyons, had zero issues. Would I have wanted to climb up the Crest, descend into MillD, or Big Water this holiday weekend, wouldn't have been my first choice... Sometimes you just have to use a little common sense.

    What makes the Crest so great besides the views is that the majority of the traffic is riding in the same direction. If anything the trail should be made into a designated one-way directional trail from South to North.

    Shutting a trail down because 2 people in the state of Utah like to climb the crest on a busy holiday weekend is silly. There are a million other climbing trails maybe reconsider your options.

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    I actually think we're probably in agreement on the actual "Wasatch crest trail". Riding both ways up on the actual crest is pretty easy. I'm probably misstating what I'm talking about. I'm really thinking the big water trail.

    The problem area is mostly the big water trail down into mill creek canyon. The real Wasatch crest trail is relatively mild in terms of grade and in my experience generally not a problem with people going too fast and much of it is wide enough to pass pretty easily. It's more of a problem once you get down further into the big water area / dog lake etc. that it gets dangerous.

    It might not be a horrible idea to have the mid mountain a one way going south and the crest a one way going north. That could solve a lot of problems. Of course you'll never see that happen because it would be bad for places like the sliver lake lodge area and many of the connections that are used for the resort trails.

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    big water and mill d are crazy on the weekends, especially now with fall season upon us expect even more traffic with hikers.

    I think everyone would be in agreement if they built directional descending trails from the crest one going to pipeline and the other to mill d that they could close big water and milld to downhill traffic. win win situation. hikers and climbers would be happy and descending mountain bikers would be happy, and the world is a better place.

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