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  1. #1
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    Good job! So You Can Pay For Trails This Good!

    This week is Live PC Give PC and two organizations that do a ton for the local mountain bike community are Mountain Trails and Summit Land Conservancy. If you're a frequent PC trail user, I'd encourage you to kick in a small donation of $10 or more to either organization and help ensure access to current and future trails.

    Learn more on how to donate here - Support Our Trails This Live PC Give PC
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  2. #2
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    Seconded. I think if we're honest with ourselves we'd all rather have amazing trails and mediocre bikes to ride them on than lame trails and carbon wonderbikes. But that's not how we act when we spend money. It's well worth putting at least a few bucks into great trails, even if you've gotta ride your 10g heavier chainring bolts for another few weeks to manage it.

    -Walt

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    How do we lobby to get some directional steep technical trails built outside of the resorts?

    Seems like every time a trail gets built its xc. I feel that Mountain Trails Foundation could get a lot more people behind them if they catered to more folks besides just the xc crowd.

    Yes there are tons of trails up in PC but not all of them are "great".

  4. #4
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    MT does not own or manage any of the land surrounding the resorts. And to be fair, most mountain bikers are "XC" riders, which means MT spends most of their time/effort catering to them. As they should. Remember too that MT is as much a hiking/horseback/skiing group as mountain biking. DH riders are a tiny fraction of the user base of the PC trail system.

    We've got Arcylon and Trailside just in the last few years, those are both pretty much gravity guy trails.

    DV has Gravity Logic building a bunch of new stuff over the next few years. Canyons has built some cool stuff as well. Things are getting better! Show your support by... buying a lift ticket and riding next summer. The resorts are happy to build what people want to ride if they can profit.

  5. #5
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    Well put Walt! I'm a XC rider and really enjoy the trails in the PC area. Hell I even rode the one gravity trail at DV on my hard tail XC bike and really enjoyed it. Made me feel like I was on an extra long BMX track which was my back ground before getting into MTB. I agree that the DH crowd is a small number compared to all the XC riders in the area.
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    Im not just talking about strictly DH trails or people who ride DH bikes as most are familiar with. Im talking about people who ride 4" to 6" all mountain trail bikes who if you noticed probably make up to about 50% of the bikes on any given day in the Park City Parking lot. People who like to pedal up earn their turns and not just shuttle everything but who are also looking for more challenging descents. Would be nice to have more steeper advanced directional technical trails getting built that would be more of a challenge then just your average buff single track.

    Arcylon and Trailside are nice additions but really not the type of trails im referring to. Think more like Insurgent, Burro Pass, Portal, Squamish, etc.

    I think we have enough buff xc beginner trail options, would it hurt to have a few newer purposeful built advanced steeper trails in the portfolio?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmar123 View Post
    Im not just talking about strictly DH trails or people who ride DH bikes as most are familiar with. Im talking about people who ride 4" to 6" all mountain trail bikes who if you noticed probably make up to about 50% of the bikes on any given day in the Park City Parking lot. People who like to pedal up earn their turns and not just shuttle everything but who are also looking for more challenging descents. Would be nice to have more steeper advanced directional technical trails getting built that would be more of a challenge then just your average buff single track.

    Arcylon and Trailside are nice additions but really not the type of trails im referring to. Think more like Insurgent, Burro Pass, Portal, Squamish, etc.

    I think we have enough buff xc beginner trail options, would it hurt to have a few newer purposeful built advanced steeper trails in the portfolio?
    Nice! That is what is needed. Not just for dh'ers, but all riders. Many of the folks making decisions in PC are not aware of mountain biking's current state. All riders would benefit from better designed trails and trail systems. Mountain trails and park city need to hear that they are not doing as well as they could.
    Until things change, give time not money. Find something that helps our trail systems improve and go to work.

  8. #8
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    Unfortunately most of the folks on 6" trail bikes are going to ride Jenny's and Spiro. You would be surprised what people mostly ride on those types of bikes - they have zero interest in tech/gnar in general. If you're posting here, you're in the very elite minority of ultra serious mountain bikers - don't start thinking that your friends and other fast buddies are typical.

    I agree, though, that directional trails (doable, and Bob R at Basin Rec is plotting how to implement some of this) would be a good idea, and that more technical trails would also be great (not as doable unless you change the topography/geology of the Wasatch back).

    Think about how much rock climbing there is in the PC area - zero. That is because there is almost no exposed rock, because the mountains are really not very steep on this side. It's also why good skiers consider PC really boring. Wander over to Alta, and you can hardly even build a rideable trail unless you find the least steep /rocky spot you can, and you can go fall off 40 footers on your skis all day long. So you can build manmade jumps/obstacles, or you can take the fall line and make a big rut (even the gnar bros won't ride that after a few seasons) or you can accept that Park City's topography is really best suited to XC riding and enjoy it for what it is.

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Unfortunately most of the folks on 6" trail bikes are going to ride Jenny's and Spiro. You would be surprised what people mostly ride on those types of bikes - they have zero interest in tech/gnar in general. If you're posting here, you're in the very elite minority of ultra serious mountain bikers - don't start thinking that your friends and other fast buddies are typical.

    I agree, though, that directional trails (doable, and Bob R at Basin Rec is plotting how to implement some of this) would be a good idea, and that more technical trails would also be great (not as doable unless you change the topography/geology of the Wasatch back).

    Think about how much rock climbing there is in the PC area - zero. That is because there is almost no exposed rock, because the mountains are really not very steep on this side. It's also why good skiers consider PC really boring. Wander over to Alta, and you can hardly even build a rideable trail unless you find the least steep /rocky spot you can, and you can go fall off 40 footers on your skis all day long. So you can build manmade jumps/obstacles, or you can take the fall line and make a big rut (even the gnar bros won't ride that after a few seasons) or you can accept that Park City's topography is really best suited to XC riding and enjoy it for what it is.

    -Walt
    I don't know why people get so defensive soon as folks start talking about the need for putting in steeper/more challenging trails. Why is there resistance on this? Why wouldn't everyone in PC be in favor of this, seriously WTF.

    Im going to have to disagree with you flat out and by some of your comments Im going to say your out of touch with what has been happening in the mountain bike world over the last few years.

    To speak for everyone who has a 6" trail bike and say they are not interested in more challenging terrain is a mistake. Almost everyone who I talked to wants this or feels that there is a need for it in PC. Almost every trail in the PC network is a beginner trail, period.

    Places like Albion Basin at Alta or Brighton would be absolutely incredible for mountain bike trails....Your argument for not being able to build a sustainable trail in steep terrain is weak and misinformed. PC is even better suited for steep trails, the dirt quality is much better on the PC side. Steeper trails don't have to be "gnar"...look at how many people ride the Whole Enchilada in Moab and absolutely love it! There are plenty of challenging features on that trail to say no one is interested in challenging trails is a joke.

  10. #10
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    Again, you are the elite. Go look around at all the flab and middle age at the parking lot at PCMR on a weekend sometime. Not to mention the kids. MT is doing what the majority of riders want, and has also been throwing quite a few bones to the gravity crowd too. The resorts have built some trails as well, so there really is WAY more difficult terrain available in PC now than there ever has been. It's never going to be anything like Moab, because it's a bunch of not-very steep hills covered with aspen groves and loamy dirt, not red sandstone cliffs. Enjoy it for what it is and bring your rigid bike and try to go fast on John's or Payroll or any of the old DH trails at DV. Plenty of stuff will feel challenging if you take away some of your suspension crutch!

    I've been involved in trail building and advocacy for a long time and I'm a little cynical about things, too. I see a new crop of kids in trucker hats every year whose parents bought them a sweet DH sled. Then the next year they're gone. The guys with a little extra gut showing and 2 kids show up every year for decades (and pony up money even if they're still riding their 1995 Homegrown) and they get to build what they ask for, which is XC riding. The parking lots and trailheads are full of people having a blast. So to me, MT is doing a great job. And they deserve your support.

    -Walt

  11. #11
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    C'mon folks... really?

    I personally love steep techy trails. Black Forest, Fire Swamp, and Insurgent are a few of my favorite rides. Would I like to see more of this style in the area, for sure I would. And there's a time and place to express those concerns and be involved in that process.

    However, I think all we're saying is that if you ever ride PC's trails, even if it's just a handful of times, it's probably worth kicking in $10. Surely it's worth that much... When did we all become so cynical? Trails, lame or not, are still a positive thing. Live somewhere for a while that doesn't have the access we do and I think you'd look at things a little differently.

    If you don't want to give to Mountain Trails, then give to Summit Land Conservancy who work to preserve open space and keep it from becoming strip malls and parking lots. Surely that's something we can all get behind.

  12. #12
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    Walt,

    sorry man but your posts are full of nothing but old stereotypes and complacency.

    first off it would be way easier to build steeper trails in PC then it would be in Moab. PC is plenty steep, the fact you don't realize this makes me wonder.

    I wasn't suggesting that PC will be like Moab. You missed my point in the fact that on any given day you will see every type of rider on the Whole Enchillada from your Elite to Your flabby middle age family man, Ive even seen kids on the WE. Its a full on technical challenging trail and everyone loves it...people come from all over the world to ride it, people put it on their bucket list.

    What I'm saying is people of all abilities can handle the technical terrain and will want to ride it if its a good trail. You make such polarizing generalizations that either you have to be a Flabby Middle age family man who is only capable of riding ubber buff beginner trails or you have to be this young bro brah with a DH sled riding gnar rutted fall line trails. Its just simply not true, there are plenty of middle age family guys and gals who rip it. Not sure what scope you are looking through when in the PC parking lot but most of the folks I see are fit looking and in shape. You make it sound as if everyone has given up on life and barely has a pulse.

    I ride with a very diverse group of riders everywhere from beginner to advanced, most are married and middle aged these days.

    ps not trying to be a jerk or disrespectful.
    -peace

  13. #13
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    Well, we'll have to agree to donate to mountain trails, then!

    -Walt

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    like YRG said, I'll donate time to build better trails. If anyone gets the green light to put a steeper advanced line in I would love to be a part of it, I know a lot of folks who are chomping at the bit to do so and who would love the opportunity. I think you would see a lot of excited people come out to volunteer.

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    Glad to hear it, we'll see you up here. In the meantime, kick in something to Summit Land if you don't want to do MT. How much money did you put into your bike? If we don't have land to build on, you'll never get new trails you like.

    -Walt

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    Ride Moose House, Insurgent, Empire, Devo, NCS, Fire Swamp, Red Bull, etc...... There is harder stuff, but most of it is under the radar for sure....

    Heck, Red Bull isn't even on the maps!
    Last edited by UtahJohn; 11-08-2015 at 05:19 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmar123 View Post
    How do we lobby to get some directional steep technical trails built outside of the resorts?
    If those are the kind of trails you want built, the best thing to do is get involved with Mountain Trails. Donating is awesome, but after that; send them an email or give them a call and offer your time towards making that kind of trail placement, design and construction possible. In reality, moving the dirt is the easy part(unless you're building at Snowbird). Its the year or two or five of wrangling with USFS and other land owners up there that takes grit and perseverance to get done.

    Also, I'm not sure how much exploring you've done up there, but there are a few trails on the map (The Mountain Trails map ) that fit the bill you're talking about.

  18. #18
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    There's also all the Lookout Peak/GWT stuff at the far north end of the county. Plenty of earn-your-turns challenge to be had there, and you won't see a single person, probably.

    MT did *awesome*, great job everyone who donated! Another $60k for great trails in all seasons is a huge win. The overall campaign was a great success too, easily surpassing the $1.2 million goal for all sorts of Park City charities and nonprofits.

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by a.d.85 View Post
    I personally love steep techy trails. Black Forest, Fire Swamp, and Insurgent are a few of my favorite rides. Would I like to see more of this style in the area, for sure I would. And there's a time and place to express those concerns and be involved in that process.

    However, I think all we're saying is that if you ever ride PC's trails, even if it's just a handful of times, it's probably worth kicking in $10. Surely it's worth that much... When did we all become so cynical? Trails, lame or not, are still a positive thing. Live somewhere for a while that doesn't have the access we do and I think you'd look at things a little differently.

    If you don't want to give to Mountain Trails, then give to Summit Land Conservancy who work to preserve open space and keep it from becoming strip malls and parking lots. Surely that's something we can all get behind.
    Talking with the Trail manager at Deer Valley this past summer it sounds like the upper sections of fire swamp and thieves are going away and will be merged into one trail. If they are open next summer you better enjoy them while you can since their demise is imminent. Like you, I want to see more trails like that, but the current trends is geared towards "flow" trails and not old school trails.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by digitalsoul View Post
    Talking with the Trail manager at Deer Valley this past summer it sounds like the upper sections of fire swamp and thieves are going away and will be merged into one trail. If they are open next summer you better enjoy them while you can since their demise is imminent. Like you, I want to see more trails like that, but the current trends is geared towards "flow" trails and not old school trails.
    I heard similar about reworking the uppers and merging them into one but I'm wondering/hoping if they are just going to share a more sustainable single entry point and split off into separate trails early on. The fall line entry on both of them are to the point where there isn't much that can be done to maintain them. In the past 4-5 years they went from trails that I would ride on my trailbike to trails that I'm essentially hiking in the first 50 yards then riding because they are just pure loose, fall line chunder up top. If you wash a tire just a touch off line in the loose you're going down hard in some really unforgiving spots. I'm a better rider on a more capable bike than I was 5 years ago so I can't help but think those two have seen better days. Things are really starting to come apart on them up at the very top and I think because of that they aren't getting many riders (instead everyone is funneling straight into Tidal Wave). From the bits I heard I understood it as more of an effort to make them both better and not give them the flow trail treatment. I hope that is correct because they are a couple fantastic trails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by catch22 View Post
    I heard similar about reworking the uppers and merging them into one but I'm wondering/hoping if they are just going to share a more sustainable single entry point and split off into separate trails early on. The fall line entry on both of them are to the point where there isn't much that can be done to maintain them. In the past 4-5 years they went from trails that I would ride on my trailbike to trails that I'm essentially hiking in the first 50 yards then riding because they are just pure loose, fall line chunder up top. If you wash a tire just a touch off line in the loose you're going down hard in some really unforgiving spots. I'm a better rider on a more capable bike than I was 5 years ago so I can't help but think those two have seen better days. Things are really starting to come apart on them up at the very top and I think because of that they aren't getting many riders (instead everyone is funneling straight into Tidal Wave). From the bits I heard I understood it as more of an effort to make them both better and not give them the flow trail treatment. I hope that is correct because they are a couple fantastic trails.
    I love them how they are. It will be interesting to see if they can keep some of that: "loose fall line chunder" flavor.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by YRG View Post
    I love them how they are. It will be interesting to see if they can keep some of that: "loose fall line chunder" flavor.
    Yeah, and honestly if the intention is for that to be a pure DH trail and people are having a great time riding it on big bikes I would have no problem at all leaving it as is or even making it more difficult. I hadn't ridden DV in a couple years til i hit it 3 weekends in a row at the end of this year. I was just surprised how gnar a few of the moves on the upper part had gotten. Maybe it was riding solo, maybe I was off my game those days, or maybe the trail has changed quite a bit (or was really blown out because it was the end of summer and hadn't rained much). I don't have a DH bike but love riding tech trails on a trail bike and just didn't expect to see anything on there that would give me pause. I would totally be in favor of leaving as is if people love what's there all the way down. I love riding bus laps on upper Deercrest to lower NCS but I stay away from upper NCS because for me, it's too much for a trail bike (or at least my skill level on one). Aside from I think 3 moves towards the beginning of Thieves with some nasty snaggletooth rocks that grab your front wheel if you slide off line the rest was still fantastic as I remembered.

    Damn winter, all I want to do now is go up there, check it out, and ride a few laps.

    On another tangent and to keep this somewhat on topic. Mountain Trails is a fantastic organization doing some amazing things when it comes to all the users and land owners involved. Sure I'd love to see another 10 trails with a Black Forest flavor up there from top to bottom but I think we'll see some good options in the next few years. As much as we would like new trail developments to be instantaneous, I know it's a long drawn out process with more red tape than I want to think about. It might take a few years for some trail development to catch up with the capabilities of the trail bikes we've got access to today.
    Sipping the Knolly Whisquillappa

  23. #23
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    I totally agree with this post by dmr123...I can't speak for PC specifically but I do agree that **in general** that Walt is WAY OFF in his generalizations. Most of the people I know with 6" travel bike are looking for some excitement and a "rush" and XC trails generally aren't satisfying that need. I'm almost 51 myself and nearly everybody I ride with is on 6"+ travel bikes and older than am. I can tell you that we aren't looking for groomed XC trails when we're out riding, especially when we're on a destination related trip. Consequently, I ride in St George & Mammoth as much as possible. Just returned from Sedona!!

    Now don't get me wrong, I enjoy riding in PC and even have a condo there but spend more and more time away from PC because the riding is SOOOOO repetitive with very little try challenges. It's fun, it's scenic but there is generally no "rush" or thrill involved. You can almost compare the AM vc XC debate to the early Snowboard vs Skiing clash. In many areas, snowboarders match or exceeded the number of skiers because skiing was almost "same-same" wherever you went and was getting old...enter snowboarding with kickers, terrain parks and on and on and the whole mountain scene has changed.


    Quote Originally Posted by dmar123 View Post
    I don't know why people get so defensive soon as folks start talking about the need for putting in steeper/more challenging trails. Why is there resistance on this? Why wouldn't everyone in PC be in favor of this, seriously WTF.

    Im going to have to disagree with you flat out and by some of your comments Im going to say your out of touch with what has been happening in the mountain bike world over the last few years.

    To speak for everyone who has a 6" trail bike and say they are not interested in more challenging terrain is a mistake. Almost everyone who I talked to wants this or feels that there is a need for it in PC. Almost every trail in the PC network is a beginner trail, period.

    Places like Albion Basin at Alta or Brighton would be absolutely incredible for mountain bike trails....Your argument for not being able to build a sustainable trail in steep terrain is weak and misinformed. PC is even better suited for steep trails, the dirt quality is much better on the PC side. Steeper trails don't have to be "gnar"...look at how many people ride the Whole Enchilada in Moab and absolutely love it! There are plenty of challenging features on that trail to say no one is interested in challenging trails is a joke.

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    I'd rather do 5mph on a gnarly DH than 30mph on something like Tidal Wave, because for ME the consequences of a 5mph crash, even on sketch, is a lot better than the one on Tidal Wave.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the flow trail thing, but the last thing those places need are too much flow and not touching the gnar. Gnar is the one thing that PC needs to keep people from getting bored. They have a crap ton of tourist trails right now, they need to diversify a bit. Heck, even the dirt jumpers have at least 2 places to go to that I know of.

    One of the beauty's of Tidal Wave is it's DIRECTIONAL. you don't have to worry about some guy coming the other way, only about someone that ate it on the landing where you can't see him.

    Walt, people ride Jenny's and Spiro because PC really gives no other options. It's just more variations on the same XC trail. 400 miles of it. How about 15 miles of something more challenging? Something that isn't directionally declared, but effectively is (like Red Bull) because no sane individual will try to go up it, it gets limited to downhill only by design.

    Payroll is one really good example that PC needs more of. I don't even think it can get washed out because of how it runs. Sections of Moose House and Black Forest are a mess, because they are so steep.

  25. #25
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    Hey, no problem. Hand MT some cashola, show up for meetings, and help make it happen!

    The last trail access meeting (for Toll Canyon) I was at had a grand total of two mountain bikers in attendance - and the other fella only came because he's my neighbor and I harassed him about it. Would be a great spot for a directional trail feeding down from the Hunter's/MM area or from Summit Park, but that's not even on the menu.

    Why not? Because nobody shows up to advocate for it, nobody puts money in the pot, nobody does anything on the FR side of things as far as I can see. I get that people like to dig, and it's great that they offer to come do trailwork, but Summit County has professionals (both at the resorts and at Mountain Trails and Basin Rec) to do that stuff. It's the boring, time consuming, often frustrating advocacy end where the changes you all want happen, and the "I want gnar" folks have done zero in Park City so far. I know this because I'm at the damn meetings and, well, nobody else seems to be.

    I want gnar too - but I'm stuck just trying to keep NIMBYs from banning bikes altogether anytime a new trail is proposed.

    Also, Payroll? Really? I ride that on my rigid SS. What's the biggest thing there, like an 18" drop? Is there a single loose rock on the whole trail?

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Hey, no problem. Hand MT some cashola, show up for meetings, and help make it happen!

    The last trail access meeting (for Toll Canyon) I was at had a grand total of two mountain bikers in attendance - and the other fella only came because he's my neighbor and I harassed him about it. Would be a great spot for a directional trail feeding down from the Hunter's/MM area or from Summit Park, but that's not even on the menu.

    Why not? Because nobody shows up to advocate for it, nobody puts money in the pot, nobody does anything on the FR side of things as far as I can see. I get that people like to dig, and it's great that they offer to come do trailwork, but Summit County has professionals (both at the resorts and at Mountain Trails and Basin Rec) to do that stuff. It's the boring, time consuming, often frustrating advocacy end where the changes you all want happen, and the "I want gnar" folks have done zero in Park City so far. I know this because I'm at the damn meetings and, well, nobody else seems to be.

    I want gnar too - but I'm stuck just trying to keep NIMBYs from banning bikes altogether anytime a new trail is proposed.

    -Walt
    ^^^ This.

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    I was using Payroll as an example of a trail which drains well, and doesn't get beat to hell (like Thieves or Fireswamp), AND it's steep ENOUGH that nobody would ride up it; IE: an example of a good long term solution with minimal maintenance, which PC needs more of.

    I don't consider it "gnar" at all.

    It's the 6-10% graded stuff that is over-built.

    Also, as an observation, making fun of someone that considered coming to meetings is not a good way to get them to do it. Walt, you are conveying a holier-than-thou attitude that isn't helping your cause you are claiming to be promoting.

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    Ah, got it. Yes, grade reversals can allow that sort of thing to work. And they're fun!

    I don't think Payroll is going to get many DH riders hearts beating faster, but you're right, that's the sort of thing that will have to get built. But it's really a flow trail at heart, IMO. Steep chundery gnar is just hard to pull off on the kind of terrain PC has to offer without going fall-line a lot of the time. And that's a disaster long term.

    -Walt

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    Hey Walt,

    Just curious does MT have any interest in building steeper more technically advanced trails? Just seems that it would be a waste of time for an individual to advocate to get a steeper trail built when MT wants to build a gazillion more miles of xc trail. Maybe if we could get MT on board with building a steeper trail it could save a lot of individuals the headache to show up to these meetings for nothing if they are competing against the MT foundation who obviously has a lot more resources then most folks.

    Anywho I agree whatever the case, getting more mountain bikers to show up for these meetings and our voice heard would be a good thing...maybe thats why im so passionate typing from the comfort of my home in hopes this will reach some of those people...is that being too optimistic?

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    Charlie Sturgis and Bob Radke are easy to call up and talk to. Have you done it? "Hi, I thought about donating, but I want to hear about your plans for steeper/directional trails first. When is the next board meeting? What can I contribute in addition to some money?"

    MT and Basin Rec are the undisputed bosses of the basin trail system. If you want new steep stuff, you *have* to work with them, not independently. Hence refusing to contribute/participate really does not serve you well.

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Charlie Sturgis and Bob Radke are easy to call up and talk to. Have you done it? "Hi, I thought about donating, but I want to hear about your plans for steeper/directional trails first. When is the next board meeting? What can I contribute in addition to some money?"

    MT and Basin Rec are the undisputed bosses of the basin trail system. If you want new steep stuff, you *have* to work with them, not independently. Hence refusing to contribute/participate really does not serve you well.

    -Walt
    Thanks good to know.

    Although I would find it hard to believe that I would be the first one to try and advocate for a steep/ tech trail to get built. Im sure others have been pushing for this or have tried in the past, can anyone chime in and maybe share their experience in doing so or provide some tips on how to prepare?

    -thanks

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    The reason that Arcylon, Dropout, Ant Farm, Team Cutthroat, and all the trails at Trailside exist is because MT has members who advocated for them just in the last few years - none of that existed until very recently. Directional, more techy than Midmountain, etc. On almost every parcel of land that is even vaguely appropriate that is owned by the county, directional trails have started popping up. You are not the only one, don't worry!

    For a real DH trail, though, you are going to have to get in at the resorts and bend ears there. Most of the mountainside terrain that is available for true DH big-bike trails is owned or managed by the resorts. MT has some influence with them, as does Basin Rec, but the bottom line is that VR and DV run their operations on private land for their own profit. People are lining up like crazy for Tidal Wave, which is a great sign, and it means more directional flow stuff will certainly happen. If you want gnar and chunder, you'll need to find out who is running things for summer ops and start talking to them. Calling Bob or Charlie would be a great way to start, they'll know who to talk to and also have some ideas for how to go about it.

    Even there, we've seen great progress. At Canyons, Hollies/Insurgent is now a top-to-bottom rough XC/light FR trail with *no hikers or uphill traffic* as of this year. The bike park continues to attract hordes of riders. The new DH trail (if you want steep, you got it!) went in this year. Double down, Ricochet, etc are great fun too. All new in the last 1-5 years, all directional/DH only, good stuff. At DV Tidal Wave is just the first of a planned 5 new trails to be built by Gravity Logic.

    In the long term, I would like to see more cooperation with Salt Lake county to improve trail corridor connections. I've mentioned Alexander Creek before - that would be fantastic place to have 2-3 gravity trails that could be easily shuttled with limited environmental/aesthetic impacts (it's a gas pipeline route paralleling an interstate that ends at a golf course!) that has ~1000 feet of elevation loss at pretty much the perfect 6-10% grade the entire time. SLC is not into trails in general, though, so who knows if it'll ever happen - which is a shame because the Emigration Canyon/Mt Wire corridor is full of amazing backcountry tech/gnar trail opportunities. Honestly there's more potential there than in PC IMO.

    Get involved. You'll be glad you did. Just don't expect someone else to call/donate/advocate for you. The world is run by those who show up.

    -Walt

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    For those who don't know, Bob Radke has been a definite influence on more progressive trail building - he's the Bob of Bob's Basin. Additionally, he has worked w/ WAFTA on Arcylon and DV on Payroll. He certainly wants to see, Park City grow as a well-rounded trail destination.

    Reaching out to Bob would be an excellent first-step. Worst case scenario, you're out a 5 minute phone call.

    His contact is listed here - Snyderville Basin Staff Directory

    Contact Charlie via the Mountain Trails Staff Directoy

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    The reason that Arcylon, Dropout, Ant Farm, Team Cutthroat, and all the trails at Trailside exist is because MT has members who advocated for them just in the last few years - none of that existed until very recently. Directional, more techy than Midmountain, etc. On almost every parcel of land that is even vaguely appropriate that is owned by the county, directional trails have started popping up. You are not the only one, don't worry!
    -Walt
    Mountain Trails had exactly ZERO influence on the trails you have listed. They also have ZERO decision making authority over trails anywhere that I'm aware of. I am not aware that they are even up to speed with modern mountain biking in any way. That fact that you are completely wrong here might not be entirely your fault. Mountain Trails does like to take credit for things that are not their work.

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    MT does not own any land, and they represent a HUGE user base including everything from nordic skiiers and dog walkers to mountain bikers - but they are still the primary advocates for non motorized recreation and mountain biking here. Bob at Basin Rec has huge influence too and I guarantee he listens to what Charlie and MT have to say when trail decisions are being made.

    What is your point? How would *you* suggest advocating for the type of trails you want to ride if not through MT/Basin Rec? I recall a few little Wasatch-Freeriders type groups popping up every once in a while. I don't think any have lasted more than a few months. Maybe I'm wrong?

    I get tired of trail nihilism. "This stuff sucks and I wanted X". Well, you didn't contribute anything. So you get whatever the folks who did show up/contribute decided on. Sorry.

    -Walt

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    "I get tired of trail nihilism. "This stuff sucks and I wanted X". Well, you didn't contribute anything. So you get whatever the folks who did show up/contribute decided on. Sorry."

    OK, so really, tell me, exactly, how many meetings, how many people, how much MONEY, will it take to convince MT or whoever to put in some variety of trails? Is this really a majority rules system? Just because there are supposedly more beginner xc riders then advanced riders means MT will never put in an advanced trail? Maybe heaven forbid a beginner will actually try the advanced trail and like it and progress their skills.

    I don't think anyone is saying PC sucks. I have a blast every time i go up there...but I also think trails and trail networks are always a work in progress and can always be made better. But lets face it there are trails out there that do suck too.

  37. #37
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    Well, yes, it's basically a democracy. So as of now, we have a few new trails (the ones I've mentioned) built for directional/gravity riding, and a whole bunch recently built for XC/hiking/multiuse (ie WOW, MM extension through DV, new trails at UOP, Toll Canyon and Hi Ute in the future, Jordanelle Perimeter, etc). MT just raised over $60k in one day during Live PC/Give PC and it probably was almost all people who want multiuse/XC/hike trails. So that's what we'll continue to get, in general.

    The more people want directional trails and come out and advocate for them, the more will get built. Right now there is not a big presence of gravity riders at the advocate/contributor level. Honestly, there is usually not any presence, but luckily Bob and others at high levels are serious enough riders that they are making an effort anyway, even in the face of pretty determined anti-bike sentiment among the gray hair retiree population.

    The only way to change that is to get involved and *stay* involved for the many years it takes for a trail to make it from proposal/permissions to moving dirt. It's not often fun, it's often super boring, and you have to listen to crazy people and NIMBYs spend their mic time claiming mountain bikes will end civilization as we know it, and then smile and be polite to them. So it sucks. But if nobody comes out and does it, we won't get anything. I do what I can but like I said - I'm one person and often the only member of the public (I'm a contributing member of MT but am not part of their board/don't speak for them at meetings) in attendance who even rides at all.

    I will make sure to keep folks informed here and elsewhere when there is a chance to make your voice heard. And I'll buy you a beer or three if you come out. So far I have not had to buy any beers in a couple of years of offering, though.

    -Walt

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    uggghhhh....Im moving to Canada

    Well its good to know that the very next trail that gets built in PC you and MT will be advocating for a steeper directional trail.

    I might show up just for the beer Since you haven't treated for a year I'm in at least for a six pack right?

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    MT does not own any land, and they represent a HUGE user base including everything from nordic skiiers and dog walkers to mountain bikers - but they are still the primary advocates for non motorized recreation and mountain biking here. Bob at Basin Rec has huge influence too and I guarantee he listens to what Charlie and MT have to say when trail decisions are being made.

    What is your point? How would *you* suggest advocating for the type of trails you want to ride if not through MT/Basin Rec? I recall a few little Wasatch-Freeriders type groups popping up every once in a while. I don't think any have lasted more than a few months. Maybe I'm wrong?

    I get tired of trail nihilism. "This stuff sucks and I wanted X". Well, you didn't contribute anything. So you get whatever the folks who did show up/contribute decided on. Sorry.

    -Walt
    My point is that you are in error and should get your facts straight. I wasn't bashing anything.

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    Please fill us in, then, on the successful process that led to those trails being built, and how we might get more built going forward! I'm happy to have my facts set as straight as you'd like. My understanding is that Basin Rec (landowner) in collaboration with all the usual user groups and their input built those trails when they saw opportunities. I have no specific information about MT's involvement but their fingers are in every pie here so I'm assuming they gave input and ideas and helped things along. Am I wrong?

    Come shake my hand next time Basin Rec is having a public meeting, eh? I'll have a couple sixers waiting back at the shop.

    -Walt

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Please fill us in, then, on the successful process that led to those trails being built, and how we might get more built going forward! I'm happy to have my facts set as straight as you'd like. My understanding is that Basin Rec (landowner) in collaboration with all the usual user groups and their input built those trails when they saw opportunities. I have no specific information about MT's involvement but their fingers are in every pie here so I'm assuming they gave input and ideas and helped things along. Am I wrong?

    Come shake my hand next time Basin Rec is having a public meeting, eh? I'll have a couple sixers waiting back at the shop.

    -Walt
    Arcylon - built by Basin Rec in conjunction with WAFTA. Same for maintenance and updates

    Dropout, Ant Farm, Team Cutthroat - 100% Basin Rec again

    Trailside - All Basin Rec again. In fact phase two was all in house using basin rec's own trail crew. I think the phase II stuff is far superior to the original build.

    The general public consensus is that Mountain Trails has their fingers in every pie, but I am aware of very little that they actually do.
    Park City trails are managed by the city
    Resort trails are managed by the resorts (except for some that are Basin Rec)
    Basin Rec manages the rest.

    I know MT has gotten involved in the WOW trail but the riders involved with it aren't happy with the quality (6 months old news, hopefully different now). What do you know that MT has really done?

    And thanks for the invite - sounds good

  42. #42

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    ... if you take away some of your suspension crutch! ... -Walt
    That revealed a whole lot of your bias.

    Everybody wants to turn this into an XC vs DH argument, but there is almost ZERO technical uphill in PC. When you add in the resorts, PC has 300 miles of the gayest crap ever ... plus death gnar. There's very little for the all-mountain rider who likes it tech up and tech down.

    And using the terrain as an explanation of the gayness is ridiculous. FireSwamp, Thieves Forest, NCS, the Canyons new DH race course, Insurgent ... all in PC. AGAIN, those are trails best suited to a big rig (with the exception of Insurgent.) Where's the all-mountain tech? John's and MoPi from the Jeremy Ranch side are the only two tech-ups I can think of.

    And you are flat wrong. There are legions of all-mountain riders. We're the ones driving to Moab 12 times a year. No, we're not showing up in PC ... guess why ... because there's no reason to be there. Most PC trails aren't even worthy of the term "mountain biking." Path Biking is far more descriptive. Pair a legs and a Huffy and you're set!

    Keep catering to the lamest common denominator and give them nowhere to grow -- as long as the dollars flow.
    Last edited by Brete; 11-14-2015 at 09:07 AM.

  44. #44
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    Interesting take. I haven't heard anyone complain about lack of technical *uphill* options in a long time. Another chance to have more fun with less technology?

    Again, come join me and advocate!

    -Walt

  45. #45
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    I don't know why the All-Mountain crowd is so quiet. It's like politics. The nut-job Left and the whacko Right are flapping their jaws constantly, while the voice of reason sits quietly in the corner, in large part because they are drowned out by the extremists. We need some radical, loud-mouthed moderates, but that's just incongruent.

    That's how I see PC MTBing. 300 miles of lame dirt sidewalk ... and death gnar. When it's too hot down South, that leaves us with very few options for tech trail riding. Fortunately, I enjoy the double blacks at DV. I'll even admit to enjoying the new groomer, Tidal Wave, but a straight pepper diet gets old.

    Topography aside, Moab is such a perfect example of balanced trail building. A bit of beginner stuff, a truckload of intermediate/advanced, and a splash of gnar.

    It's everything that PC is not.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brete View Post
    That revealed a whole lot of your bias.

    Everybody wants to turn this into an XC vs DH argument, but there is almost ZERO technical uphill in PC. When you add in the resorts, PC has 300 miles of the gayest crap ever ... plus death gnar. There's very little for the all-mountain rider who likes it tech up and tech down.

    And using the terrain as an explanation of the gayness is ridiculous. FireSwamp, Thieves Forest, NCS, the Canyons new DH race course, Insurgent ... all in PC. AGAIN, those are trails best suited to a big rig (with the exception of Insurgent.) Where's the all-mountain tech? John's and MoPi from the Jeremy Ranch side are the only two tech-ups I can think of.

    And you are flat wrong. There are legions of all-mountain riders. We're the ones driving to Moab 12 times a year. No, we're not showing up in PC ... guess why ... because there's no reason to be there. Most PC trails aren't even worthy of the term "mountain biking." Path Biking is far more descriptive. Pair a legs and a Huffy and you're set!

    Keep catering to the lamest common denominator and give them nowhere to grow -- as long as the dollars flow.
    Sorry, but it's hard to take you seriously when you talk like the rest of the 15 year old high school kids on PinkBike. Do you actually talk like that in person?

    And, money says ol' Walt would beat you down most of the "AM" trails on a HT.
    Death from Below.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Sorry, but it's hard to take you seriously when you talk like the rest of the 15 year old high school kids on PinkBike. Do you actually talk like that in person?
    Yes. Why would you presume I'm not 15? Still, I don't recall asking to be taken seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    And, money says ol' Walt would beat you down most of the "AM" trails on a HT.
    Speaking of juvenile comments, I'm totally game.

  48. #48
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    This thread needs some lightening up before I have to drop some fools on my huffy on the bike path!

    With apologies to Meredith Wilson and Robert Preston:

    Well, friend, either you're closing your eyes
    To a situation you do not wish to acknowledge
    Or you are not aware of the caliber of disaster indicated
    By the presence of a flow trail in your community.
    Ya got trouble, my friend, right here,
    I say, trouble right here in Park City.
    Why sure I'm an all mountain rider,
    Certainly mighty proud I say
    I'm always mighty proud to say it.
    I consider that the hours I spend
    On a 6" all-mountain carbon whip are golden
    Help you cultivate horse sense
    And a cool head and a keen eye.
    You ever take and try to give
    An iron-clad leave to yourself
    From a three-foot ledge drop?
    But just as I say,
    It takes judgement, brains, and maturity to ride
    on an intermediate trail in Moab,
    I say that any boob kin take
    And ride a 6" bike in Park City.
    And I call that sloth.
    The first big step on the road
    To the depths of deg-ra-Day--
    I say, first, medicinal wine from a teaspoon,
    Then beer from a bottle!

    -Walt


  49. #49
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    What? You mean, trails that don't appear to be technical on a 6" bike with 27.5x2.5" DH tires suddenly become more challenging on a lower travel bike?

    Hogwash, Walt. I refuse to believe that.
    Death from Below.

  50. #50
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    LOL @ "Death gnar"

    Quote Originally Posted by Brete View Post
    300 miles of lame dirt sidewalk ... and death gnar.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    What? You mean, trails that don't appear to be technical on a 6" bike with 27.5x2.5" DH tires suddenly become more challenging on a lower travel bike?

    Hogwash, Walt. I refuse to believe that.
    Oh I get it now....so all the folks up in PC on hardtail and 100mm travel bikes are really trying to make the trails more technical for themselves...so really they are looking for more of a challenge, to think I got it wrong all these years.

    Brete if you are looking for more of a technical/challenging uphill your going to have to start pedaling your downhill bike up, sorry.

  52. #52
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    Ah. I forgot that everyone with a 6" bike in PC could race WC DH, EWS, and smoke WC XCO racers uphill.

    You are truly the masters of the offroad cycling universe.
    Death from Below.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmar123 View Post
    Brete if you are looking for more of a technical/challenging uphill your going to have to start pedaling your downhill bike up, sorry.
    If I do that, can I act all noble and superior on forums? It would SO be worth it.

  54. #54
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    Armageddon + Bigfoot + Fullface + Guardsman. Shuttle back down with some tourists. You know you want to do it. Infinite MTBR superior points!

    -Walt

  55. #55
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    Walt, you're genius.

  56. #56
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    pbffff......yeah but will you be riding this??



    forget about your buff trail woes... transform those trails into death gnar!

  57. #57
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    Gonna throw this out there.....How about owning a bike that you find enjoyable to ride on your local trails instead of owning a bike that is over (or under) gunned for your needs on your local trails and complaining that the trails need to change to suit your needs?

    Plenty of really good choices out there.

  58. #58
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    Gonna throw this out there...How bout some directional steep technical trails.

    Don't get me wrong I like to ride everything, I like the buff, I like long xc rides, I also enjoy steep technical challenging trails. Perfectly happy with the bike I own it does everything well....bike are so capable nowadays...you can get a long travel bike that climbs awesome and is super fun to descend on... even short travel bikes rip the descents too. All joking aside I respect all aspects of mountain biking from xc/am to dh. I think its sad that we have to pit one discipline of mountain biking against another.

    I think the good trail builders out there address all aspects of mountain biking when developing a trail network. Every lift served resort builds trails to suit all riding levels why should it be any different when constructing a non-resort trail network? To only develop one style of trail IMO is selling mountain biking short.

    PC is a rad place to ride, lots of folks are passionate, really we just want to make it better! If you or anyone thinks that by putting in a few steeper trails is going to make it a worse place to ride then I'm sorry to hear that.

  59. #59
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    Or, instead of having beginner-ish trails that advanced riders need to go 20-30mph on to be "challenged" (and scare the crap out of the beginners), get them OFF the beginner-ish trails by creating a few directional trails that they'd ride INSTEAD.

    To me it makes no sense to add more of what there is already 300 miles of, and none of what there is 0 of. Currently there is a huge gap in skill level in the PC area, from the intermediate level stuff, and then the jump to the Death Gnar (since there is almost nothing in between, John's excluded). If there were options between the 2, then people could improve on those instead of having to ride FASTER on the easier trails, for an equivalent challenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by flowtron View Post
    How about owning a bike that you find enjoyable to ride on your local trails instead of owning a bike that is over (or under) gunned for your needs on your local trails and complaining that the trails need to change to suit your needs?

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brete View Post
    Yes. Why would you presume I'm not 15? Still, I don't recall asking to be taken seriously.



    Speaking of juvenile comments, I'm totally game.
    Not only on a HT, but probably a rigid SS HT...seriously...its not even funny

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie386 View Post
    Not only on a HT, but probably a rigid SS HT...seriously...its not even funny
    yeah but I have a bigger penis.

  62. #62
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    ....
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    Interesting read.

    I can understand the sentiment from both sides. I was once a 23 year old who predominantly rode my DH bike. I remember summer days lapping Empire and hitting the road gap over and over and over. I remember digging trails in the backwoods, only to have them torn out by the USFS shortly thereafter. I ranted and raved on internet forums about the lack of gravity/flow/steep/tech trails.

    Then I got active and involved in advocacy. I played a part in starting WAFTA. We had meetings with the USFS about LCC and Lamb's Canyon, got to know Bob Radke quite well, dug on trails in Bob's Basin, worked with the Draper Parks and Trails Committee, worked on trails at Wolf Mountain, etc. etc. etc.

    I got a little older - I am 37 now. I got a real job. Sometimes I work long hours. I have more money than I had when I was 23, and have much nicer bikes now. But I don't have as much time as I used to.

    I still love to ride my DH bike. I still love to lap Empire. And I love riding my other bikes on the beginner-ish trails in PC. I do long 40+ mile days now in PC (which I had no desire to do when I was 23). Lapping Tidal Wave is awesome. I had a perma-grin on my face for most of the first day that I rode that trail this year. I still cannot believe that trail is in my back yard, especially thinking of what the trail situation was like in PC and the Wasatch 8 years ago.

    I only say all of this somewhat introspectively. I love the trails in PC. And I love how far the trails in PC have come over the last decade. I know that some of the posters in this thread have been around and involved in the Wasatch trail scene that entire time (and longer). And my guess is that some of the posters in this thread have not.

    All things considered, it is pretty amazing that in the last 10 years, we now can ride the Canyons Bike Park, Trailside, the new stuff (with more coming) at DV, Arcylon, Bob's Basin, and other stuff that is kind of off the radar and tolerated by the land managers. I never thought I would hear people complaining that we have too many flow trails in the Wasatch. If you go back 5 years and dig up some threads in this very forum, the complaint was that there were NO flow trails in the Wasatch. Meanwhile, complete trails systems are being closed in other parts of the country. We are a fickle bunch.

    In sum - get involved. Go to meetings. More trails will happen. More tech trails will happen. It just takes getting involved, and being polite but persistent with land managers. Get to know Bob Radke. He is one of the best allies and advocates for mountain biking that we have. And he is a pretty dang good rider too.

    And get to know Steve Duke at the Canyons. He is all about building more progressive trails, and is open to ideas and help from the community.

    Cool to see all this chatter and discussion about the future of trails. Mountain biking is awesome.

  64. #64
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    Future's so bright! And where else can you ride on snow up big climbs on singletrack in the mountains and then rally back down?

    -Walt

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