Should the Snotch be Made More Rideable by Lesser Skilled Riders???- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Should the Snotch be Made More Rideable by Lesser Skilled Riders???

    Recently, one of the better Arizona riders headed out to Moab to ride, and his goal was to clean the Notch Drop. He accomplished his goal and has the video to prove it.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...=1#post7376655

    I have personally witnessed several Moab locals ride it, but an out-of-towner doing it is great accomplishment .

  2. #2
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    No Way!

    The less skilled rider should learn to ride harder terrain or they're not going to get any better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hurleyskis
    No Way!

    The less skilled rider should learn to ride harder terrain or they're not going to get any better.
    HS:

    How many attempts do you make on Body Bag before you normally clean it? How about the steep section after the BB, is that still a blast to ride?

    TD

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    Well it was snow convered when i saw it the first time and i stopped at the top to scope it out. I hiked down and checked out the turn and then some local came in and cleaned it so i got to see their line. Cleaned it first time after that.

    It's all about being comfortable on the bike getting behind the seat, enter SLOW, and roll each little bump smoothly so you don't gain speed. This was easier said than done with the ice and snow, but still doable.

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    Arrgggghhhh! Seriously? Please, please don't even think about it. That would be like a group of Utah riders going to south mountain and dumbing down the waterfall section of national trail. Az riders probably wouldn't like that too much (nor would I). No, it should not be made easier. That being said, I have not cleared it yet. Almost. But, I look forward to trying every time I ride that trail. It's the best part of the ride.

    I like the IMBA model trail description of challenging terrain: "Challenge: The mindset of a mountain biker is that a technically difficult section of trail is a challenge, not a chore. If we can’t ride a section of trail, we’ll stop, go back and try it again, maybe several times. It might take days, weeks—even years—to gain the kind of riding skills necessary to “clean” a section, or ride it without putting a foot down for balance. But the sense of accomplishment is worth the work, and even after that trail becomes routinely rideable, that pride remains.

    If it's rideable by someone, leave it the fv*k alone!

  6. #6
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    Umm that's the Notch, not the Snotch. The Snotch is the new route off to the right before you get to the Notch.

    FWIW it's easy to get down to the right-hand turn before the tree. That turn is the crux.


    Now if you are actually talking about doing something to make the left-hand turn on the SNOTCH rideable, I say go for it. It's a stupid 180º trials move as-is, and I'd love to not have to stop, turn my bike around, and then ride down the steep rock face. If you could build out some structure that you could ride back around to the rock face, go for it.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit
    Umm that's the Notch, not the Snotch. The Snotch is the new route off to the right before you get to the Notch.

    FWIW it's easy to get down to the right-hand turn before the tree. That turn is the crux.


    Now if you are actually talking about doing something to make the left-hand turn on the SNOTCH rideable, I say go for it. It's a stupid 180º trials move as-is, and I'd love to not have to stop, turn my bike around, and then ride down the steep rock face. If you could build out some structure that you could ride back around to the rock face, go for it.

    Not to be too picky, but I think it might be a 110 degree left turn. I have sent an email to the builder and she agrees it needs to be fixed. She is going in around Nov. 1st. to do the fix.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    I have sent an email to the builder and she agrees it needs to be fixed. She is going in around Nov. 1st. to do the fix.

    TD

    Bad call.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Should the Snotch be Made More Rideable by Lesser Skilled Riders???-neener22-1-.jpg  

    What the EFF is "All MOUNTAIN"???

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit
    Umm that's the Notch, not the Snotch. The Snotch is the new route off to the right before you get to the Notch.


    Which one are you talking about changing? Leave the Notch as is.
    I do think that the lower notch is unsustainable (after the rock part).

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    Quote Originally Posted by supersize
    Which one are you talking about changing? Leave the Notch as is.
    I do think that the lower notch is unsustainable (after the rock part).
    Someone mentioned that the lower section has been eliminated with a high contour trail that stays high right (may start where the bikes rear tire is in the picture) and ends up on the rim. It must intersect with the Snotch. That ex-FS lady use to try and get me to build that new route, but I told her I would be the most hated person in Moab if I did that.

    I am curious if in fact it was done, and does anyone take credit for it? The ex-FS may have lobbied someone else. She was very concerned about the sustainablity of that section and use to drive me nuts with late night phone calls.

    Attached is a picture of what that left drop after the Notch use to look like.

    TD
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by traildoc; 10-03-2010 at 04:10 PM.

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    It sounds like traildoc is talking about the Notch proper. In which case, leave it the fock alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit
    It sounds like traildoc is talking about the Notch proper. In which case, leave it the fock alone.
    S:

    I am afraid that the Notch section will be undergoing a major trail improvement tomorrow by a group of the 24 hour bunch, hopefully someone will be out there to stop them.

    TD

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    "Trail improvement" almost always = dumbed down. Bummer. The reality is that trail was built by riders who wanted something more difficult to ride than the busy Moab trails. Unfortunately, like a lot of "rogue" (or formerly rogue) trails they seem to end up being dumbed down so everyone can ride them. Seems like the wasatch has seen a lot of that lately. What are the 24 hour guys?

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfhb
    "Trail improvement" almost always = dumbed down. Bummer. The reality is that trail was built by riders who wanted something more difficult to ride than the busy Moab trails. Unfortunately, like a lot of "rogue" (or formerly rogue) trails they seem to end up being dumbed down so everyone can ride them. Seems like the wasatch has seen a lot of that lately. What are the 24 hour guys?
    They are a group that comes to Moab every year to knock out a bunch of trail improvements in a 24 hour period. They like to work at night so they don't have to get into a pissing match with the users that don't agree with what they are doing to make a better riding experience for 95% of the other users who are happy with their efforts.

    TD

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    nevermind

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    They like to work at night so they don't have to get into a pissing match with the users that don't agree with what they are doing to make a better riding experience for 95% of the other users who are happy with their efforts.

    TD
    This is sort of a political debate... If 95% of people worked harder, they'd have more money too... what is this? Communism? Politicians try and pass **** by when no one is looking too.

    I don't agree with ruining good riders experiences just because you aren't as good as they are, or aren't willing to try harder. Go ride something else if you can't ride it. I can't ride the notch and therefor must hike down like the other 95%, but I do love seeing people come down it when they can!

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    They are a group that comes to Moab every year to knock out a bunch of trail improvements in a 24 hour period. They like to work at night so they don't have to get into a pissing match with the users that don't agree with what they are doing to make a better riding experience for 95% of the other users who are happy with their efforts.

    TD
    I actually prefer riding trails with features that I can't clean - gives me motivation to keep coming back & trying to ride (or dreaming of someday riding, as the case may be). I imagine there are alot of features in Sedona that many riders end up walking too. I hope you don't decide to 'fix' those as well.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by osubg1
    This is sort of a political debate... If 95% of people worked harder, they'd have more money too... what is this? Communism?

    I think you would call that Capitalism, and under the current government ideology those 95% of people working harder need to share their earnings with the 5% who are able to ride the notch five days a week and on the other two days they go to their regular jobs. But, because they are only working two days a week they need some help from the government to pay for expenses that they have not saved for like a broken collar bone riding the notch.

    Are you with me on that?

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    Success and Failure

    Czech out Joe Parkin's editorial in this month's BIKE.

    He gets it!

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  20. #20
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    So - did the renegade 24 hour crew some by or what? what was the damage?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhazard
    So - did the renegade 24 hour crew some by or what? what was the damage?
    jh

    Think of it in a positive light. Now thousands of riders who thought that section sucked because they had to slide down it can ride it with a on their face. Those that want a challenging section to look at and then walk it can still walk the Notch. IMHO it is a win win situation, and I think you will agree.

    When they get the Blue Dot open next spring you will be able to try and ride the "A" line and probably walk some of those difficult sections while others will take the "B" line and not have to walk. Both of you will probably celebrate the ride at one of your favorite Moab restaurants.This will be another win win situation that will bring thousands of additional riders to Moab to check out something new or maybe old if they have ridden the Dots previous to the crackdown.

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 10-06-2010 at 06:34 PM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    They are a group that comes to Moab every year to knock out a bunch of trail improvements in a 24 hour period. They like to work at night so they don't have to get into a pissing match with the users that don't agree with what they are doing to make a better riding experience for 95% of the other users who are happy with their efforts.

    TD
    Since you seem to know them and what they are doing, please tell them to cease and desist. The 95% argument is faulty. The night time work is cowardly. If you have an inside line with them, then you can explain without them getting to be a tighter group when faced with opposition.
    Please help the self-deluded. Will you?
    Before they fck up more great stuff

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    Quote Originally Posted by axolotl
    Since you seem to know them and what they are doing, please tell them to cease and desist. The 95% argument is faulty. The night time work is cowardly. If you have an inside line with them, then you can explain without them getting to be a tighter group when faced with opposition.
    Please help the self-deluded. Will you?
    Before they fck up more great stuff
    A:

    I wish I could contact them. Unfortunately the 24 hour group works under a very high security level and during their project period (usually 30 days) they are under a strict code of honor to not communicate with anyone other than central comand. They usually will work during rainy periods to reduce the need to import water needed to provide ultimate compaction of soil or mixing of mortar to help keep rock in place in steep sections.

    TD

  24. #24
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    TD- Please clarify that you are still discussing the newer Snotch and not the Notch. You seem to have switched your subject mid-thread.

    The section of trail AFTER the "old" Notch was rerouted when I rode it last weekend. I didn't even notice the switch, but the new singletrack is flowy and smooth with no climbing. IMO a major improvement since the old brake dragger was ugly, didn't offer much of a challenge and the climb up the other side was kinda nasty. Now that it's fixed, I am optimistic that the Notch will remain as-is for years to come.

    I will likely check out the Snotch tomorrow or this weekend. If it's truly intended to be a better-routed and more sustainable (now questionable since the post-notch reroute) B-Line to the Notch, it should be rideable by a larger number of riders and should be less impactful. If it isn't then I argue there was no reason to build it in the first place.

    JMH

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMH
    The section of trail AFTER the Notch was rerouted when I rode it last weekend. I didn't even notice the switch, but the new singletrack is flowy and smooth with no climbing. IMO a major improvement since the old brake dragger was ugly, didn't offer much of a challenge and the climb up the other side was kinda nasty. Now that it's fixed, I am optimistic that the Notch will remain as-is for years to come.

    I will likely check out the Snotch tomorrow or this weekend. If it's truly intended to be a better-routed and more sustainable (now questionable since the post-notch reroute) B-Line to the Notch, it should be rideable by a larger number of riders and should be less impactful. If it isn't then I argue there was no reason to build it in the first place.

    JMH
    No climbing? how is that possible after dropping down the Notch?

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by zzsean
    No climbing? how is that possible after dropping down the Notch?
    The reroute stays high and heads south another hundred yards back to the rim instead of dropping down into the bowl. It MAY climb gently but nothing like the sweaty grunt on the old trail. I give it two thumbs up (way up) on the BooYa scale.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMH
    The reroute stays high and heads south another hundred yards back to the rim instead of dropping down into the bowl. It MAY climb gently but nothing like the sweaty grunt on the old trail. I give it two thumbs up (way up) on the BooYa scale.
    Sounds excellent! Will have to check it out this weekend.

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    BooYa I Like It.

    Quote Originally Posted by JMH
    The reroute stays high and heads south another hundred yards back to the rim instead of dropping down into the bowl. It MAY climb gently but nothing like the sweaty grunt on the old trail. I give it two thumbs up (way up) on the BooYa scale.
    JMH:

    I previously asked where the new Notch section hooks into the lower section of the Snotch, but never got a response from anyone? Do they still let riders ride down the old Notch route as an optional?

    I assume there will be a lot of BOOOOOYAAAAAAAA when the Snotch is made more rideable for wimpy riders like myself.

    TD

  29. #29
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    I am told by someone who was just there that they did dumb down the NOTCH ! In his words,
    "the upper portion was packed in and there's a backboard on the lower with dirt and rocks built up."

    I just recently cleaned the Notch and this makes me mad that they would do this. After seeing the Notch for the first time 4 months ago, it was a big reason for me coming back. I wanted to test myself on it.

    I hope the locals go out there and tear up the "improvements" this group of @sses made on it.

    I was really looking forward to riding the Notch again. Now I am not. The thing that made it special was that it seemed impossible to most riders. It certainly did to me 4 months ago. I didn't try to make it easier so that I could ride down it. I became a better rider so that I could ride down it.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cenobite39
    I am told by someone who was just there that they did dumb down the NOTCH ! In his words,
    "the upper portion was packed in and there's a backboard on the lower with dirt and rocks built up."

    I just recently cleaned the Notch and this makes me mad that they would do this. After seeing the Notch for the first time 4 months ago, it was a big reason for me coming back. I wanted to test myself on it.
    Just out of curiosity, when exactly did you "see the Notch for the first time"?

    Four months ago might have been mid June?

    Thanks,

    FW

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    The lower section seemed of the Notch "dumbed down" to me 4 months ago compared to the first time I saw it several years ago - and a lot easier to ride. That being said, the first time I saw it, others who had been riding there several years before that even said it was harder due to rider erosion, blown in sand, etc. Who knows. It's pretty hard.

    BTW - JMH is the man for getting out of the wash. Saw it with my own eyes. Jerk!

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by frejwilk
    Just out of curiosity, when exactly did you "see the Notch for the first time"?

    Four months ago might have been mid June?

    Thanks,

    FW

    Memorial Day weekend of this year.
    I understand that mother nature and trail use both have an effect on a trail like that.
    I understand that it was probably dumbed down by someone last year or earlier this year or 5 years ago or whenever, by riders who are trying to clean it for the first time.. I know that it happens. I'm pissed that there was an actual organized effort to make this section of trail easier for every rider.
    I live near the waterfall on South Mountain. From time to time, you will see a rock placed here or there that wasn't there a couple of days ago. It happens.
    If a group of "riders" went out there tonight with picks, shovels and wood and turned it into a handicapped ramp, I would be equally pissed.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cenobite39
    Memorial Day weekend of this year.
    I understand that mother nature and trail use both have an effect on a trail like that.
    I understand that it was probably dumbed down by someone last year or earlier this year or 5 years ago or whenever, by riders who are trying to clean it for the first time.. I know that it happens. I'm pissed that there was an actual organized effort to make this section of trail easier for every rider.
    I live near the waterfall on South Mountain. From time to time, you will see a rock placed here or there that wasn't there a couple of days ago. It happens.
    If a group of "riders" went out there tonight with picks, shovels and wood and turned it into a handicapped ramp, I would be equally pissed.
    I realize just asking you when without elaborating might have come across aggressive. It wasn't meant to be.

    My point was similar to the post before. I believe you actually rode the trail following the dumbing down work you've heard about. The backboard and rockwork at the bottom of the Notch were done before Memorial Day this year.

    Sometimes trail conditions are a fluid thing. I believe the work in question was done more out of a fear that the trail might erode away completely at the bottom of than Notch rather than to make it easier. Did it become easier? Definitely. Easier than it had ever been? Hard to say. One thing is for sure. The 'hole' at the bottom of the Notch had started to grow at a very fast rate.

    I just wanted to point this out as sometimes these threads get emotional based on what people have experienced in similar (but other) situations.

    FW

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by frejwilk
    I realize just asking you when without elaborating might have come across aggressive. It wasn't meant to be.

    My point was similar to the post before. I believe you actually rode the trail following the dumbing down work you've heard about. The backboard and rockwork at the bottom of the Notch were done before Memorial Day this year.

    Sometimes trail conditions are a fluid thing. I believe the work in question was done more out of a fear that the trail might erode away completely at the bottom of than Notch rather than to make it easier. Did it become easier? Definitely. Easier than it had ever been? Hard to say. One thing is for sure. The 'hole' at the bottom of the Notch had started to grow at a very fast rate.

    I just wanted to point this out as sometimes these threads get emotional based on what people have experienced in similar (but other) situations.

    FW
    I really appreciate the clarification. I got emotional about the subject just because I recently cleaned it for the first time and it was a big deal for me ! It wasn't a very smooth run, it was more like I "survived the Notch" and I really look forward to riding it on every trip and getting better at it.

    Since I had only seen it once before and I am fairly new to mountain biking, the Notch looked impossible to me 4 months ago and it still looked equally impossible 2 weeks ago.

    I failed to notice the difference because there was none. I had never seen it before this "dumbing down" was done on it. ( now who feels dumbed down ? ) : )
    Where is the backboard at in relation to this photo ?
    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/azpictures/5040089091/" title="Upper Body Bag- end by Rick Gravesen, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4144/5040089091_3f671b5e5e_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="Upper Body Bag- end" /></a>

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    jh

    Think of it in a positive light. Now thousands of riders who thought that section sucked because they had to slide down it can ride it with a on their face. Those that want a challenging section to look at and then walk it can still walk the Notch. IMHO it is a win win situation, and I think you will agree.

    When they get the Blue Dot open next spring you will be able to try and ride the "A" line and probably walk some of those difficult sections while others will take the "B" line and not have to walk. Both of you will probably celebrate the ride at one of your favorite Moab restaurants.This will be another win win situation that will bring thousands of additional riders to Moab to check out something new or maybe old if they have ridden the Dots previous to the crackdown.

    TD
    TD: Probably shouldn't have used the word "damage" - "result" may have been a better choice. Really, I was only curious if the 24 hour crew actually showed up and did anything. I admit, I misread the OP - I though it was the Notch being referred to - not S-notch, my bad. I've ridden neither of them, but the Notch is on my bucket list for sure. Somehow, I was under the impression that Snotch was built as a go-around for the original Notch. If that's the case, then I think it should be designed to be rideable by the majority. Glad that the masses will be able to enjoy that line now.

    As for the Notch (and other techy trails/lines beyond normal riders abilities), I would hope they remain untouched as much as possible. The majority of trails are rideable by the general mtb populace. This might get a negative reaction, but IMO, just because a trail exists does not mean every rider... "deserves" (for lack of a better term) to ride it. I can ride 90% of the Portal trail, and I'm happy to walk the parts I'm not up to yet. Rode Holy Cross last spring and walked a lot of it, but I'll go back do better the next time. It's a challenge I look forward to. Anyhow... that's really another debate not directly related to this thread. BTW, appreciate all your efforts and info regarding Sedona riding, rode some trails there in March with the wife and had a blast (Bell Rock and Cypress areas).

    Blue Dot? Can't wait
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMH
    TD- Please clarify that you are still discussing the newer Snotch and not the Notch. You seem to have switched your subject mid-thread.

    The section of trail AFTER the "old" Notch was rerouted when I rode it last weekend. I didn't even notice the switch, but the new singletrack is flowy and smooth with no climbing. IMO a major improvement since the old brake dragger was ugly, didn't offer much of a challenge and the climb up the other side was kinda nasty. Now that it's fixed, I am optimistic that the Notch will remain as-is for years to come.

    I will likely check out the Snotch tomorrow or this weekend. If it's truly intended to be a better-routed and more sustainable (now questionable since the post-notch reroute) B-Line to the Notch, it should be rideable by a larger number of riders and should be less impactful. If it isn't then I argue there was no reason to build it in the first place.

    JMH
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  37. #37
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    they have dumbed down enough trails if noobs ride long enough they will get better. if they keep making trails easier there will be nothing left for the more accomplished riders

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhazard
    TD: Probably shouldn't have used the word "damage" - "result" may have been a better choice. Really, I was only curious if the 24 hour crew actually showed up and did anything. I admit, I misread the OP - I though it was the Notch being referred to - not S-notch, my bad. I've ridden neither of them, but the Notch is on my bucket list for sure. Somehow, I was under the impression that Snotch was built as a go-around for the original Notch. If that's the case, then I think it should be designed to be rideable by the majority. Glad that the masses will be able to enjoy that line now.

    As for the Notch (and other techy trails/lines beyond normal riders abilities), I would hope they remain untouched as much as possible. The majority of trails are rideable by the general mtb populace. This might get a negative reaction, but IMO, just because a trail exists does not mean every rider... "deserves" (for lack of a better term) to ride it. I can ride 90% of the Portal trail, and I'm happy to walk the parts I'm not up to yet. Rode Holy Cross last spring and walked a lot of it, but I'll go back do better the next time. It's a challenge I look forward to. Anyhow... that's really another debate not directly related to this thread. BTW, appreciate all your efforts and info regarding Sedona riding, rode some trails there in March with the wife and had a blast (Bell Rock and Cypress areas).

    Blue Dot? Can't wait
    Where did I use the word damage?

    As far as the Portal goes I have spent at least 6 hours doing trail improvements on that trail, so that you have been able to ride 90% of the trail.I wonder what percentage you wouldn't have been able to ride, if I hadn't done those improvements?

    Some of those left-handers to the chunky down sections make for some real good story telling back at the Brewary.

    We just got done building a new 2.91 mile trail that you might enjoy, it's called Aerie and has become a favorite by the ride fast crowd.

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    We just did the Enchilada yesterday. What an awesome trail! I say there should be a special club for people who can ride The Notch!
    As I was sliding down it, I was in awe of the thought of people clearing it. Good for you! I don't think I'll ever clear it! I didn't even like walking down it!

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR. ED
    We just did the Enchilada yesterday. What an awesome trail! I say there should be a special club for people who can ride The Notch!
    As I was sliding down it, I was in awe of the thought of people clearing it. Good for you! I don't think I'll ever clear it! I didn't even like walking down it!
    Ed:

    The Snotch is about 150-200 yards back up the trail. If it could be made barely rideable by you and your buddies would you still go the Notch route to support the idea that riders need a feature that they probably will never ride to make the Whole Enchilada the awesome ride you originally referred to?

    TD

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    I'm not following....Making it barely rideable by my buddies and I? If it's barely rideable I walk!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR. ED
    I'm not following....Making it barely rideable by my buddies and I? If it's barely rideable I walk!
    ED:

    This whole thread is about making the SNOTCH rideable by more than 50% of the riders who ride the Enchilada from some point above or starting at LPS. The people who are opposed to any improvement of the SNOTCH think that riders should have a challenge that they may never ride, either due to GOOD JUDGEMENT or a lesser skill level.

    My question to you is would being able to ride down the SNOTCH (which you probably wouldn't ride now) rather than walking the NOTCH have ruined your riding experience last weekend?

    TD

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    No. Riding the Snotch would not have ruined the experience. We took a break at the Snotch/Notch turn off. There was a guy there saying that the Snotch wasn't rideable -too much dirt or too soft or something like that- so we decided to check out the Notch to see if anybody would hit it. The only thing that would've ruined the ride is an injury or catastrophic bike failure.
    I was shivering so bad up at Burro that I could barely ride that! I don't let that stuff get to me. Some days are on and some are off. Maybe in the future with a new Yeti 7 and some bigger balls I'll think about the Notch.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR. ED
    No. Riding the Snotch would not have ruined the experience. We took a break at the Snotch/Notch turn off. There was a guy there saying that the Snotch wasn't rideable -too much dirt or too soft or something like that- so we decided to check out the Notch to see if anybody would hit it. The only thing that would've ruined the ride is an injury or catastrophic bike failure.
    I was shivering so bad up at Burro that I could barely ride that! I don't let that stuff get to me. Some days are on and some are off. Maybe in the future with a new Yeti 7 and some bigger balls I'll think about the Notch.

    MR. ED:

    Thanks for your candid response. Before starting your car in the next couple months you might want to check under the hood to see if someone has hooked up a car bomb to your ignition system.

    TD

  45. #45
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    The Notch trail update is a good change. It has been officially signed and everything. The new route stays high and heads back over to the rim and joins the snotch trail.

    The snotch should be left alone. Not everything should be rideable for everyone, challenge is a part of the attraction. But with the official signs for LPS now being pointed towards the Snotch and the orginal LPS trail via the notch now being labeled as a double black option I expect the Snotch to be worked on and made easier over the years to come - that is the way of popular trails for the masses.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by zzsean
    The Notch trail update is a good change. It has been officially signed and everything. The new route stays high and heads back over to the rim and joins the snotch trail.

    The snotch should be left alone. Not everything should be rideable for everyone, challenge is a part of the attraction. But with the official signs for LPS now being pointed towards the Snotch and the orginal LPS trail via the notch now being labeled as a double black option I expect the Snotch to be worked on and made easier over the years to come - that is the way of popular trails for the masses.
    zz:

    Thanks for the update on the routing. Can you still ride by the Snotch to get to the Notch? is the original route to the Notch and the newer route that also started at the cattle guard still used?

    Curious if the new Notch routing getting over to the lower Snotch trail was done by the landmanager or a volunteer group?

    TD

  47. #47
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    I'll put my .02 worth in. If the snotch was built to be an alernative line to the notch then "yes" it should be ridable by most people. I went both ways, we rode LPS/Porc and then again as part of the Whole Enchilada last week and I consider myself an average rider but I don't have the trackstand move required to get around the switchback before dropping down the rock slab. That's the only spot that needs to be "fixed", but not being able the snotch or the notch ruined my ride, in fact I agree with a lot of other post, it makes you want to get better.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruzthepug
    I'll put my .02 worth in. If the snotch was built to be an alernative line to the notch then "yes" it should be ridable by most people. I went both ways, we rode LPS/Porc and then again as part of the Whole Enchilada last week and I consider myself an average rider but I don't have the trackstand move required to get around the switchback before dropping down the rock slab. That's the only spot that needs to be "fixed", but not being able the snotch or the notch ruined my ride, in fact I agree with a lot of other post, it makes you want to get better.
    It sounds like to me the solution is not changing the trail but the way that you ride. I just rode this with a group of friends Saturday and some of us cleaned that section some of us didn't. Just cause I made the decision to walk the second hairpin down the snotch doesn't mean the trail needs to be changed. It just means I need to progress a little bit more and ride it the next time. If you do want technical in Moab go ride a dirt or paved road and leave the the tech for those of us that want a new challenge each time we do a ride.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by gjsnowboarder
    It sounds like to me the solution is not changing the trail but the way that you ride. I just rode this with a group of friends Saturday and some of us cleaned that section some of us didn't. Just cause I made the decision to walk the second hairpin down the snotch doesn't mean the trail needs to be changed. It just means I need to progress a little bit more and ride it the next time. If you do want technical in Moab go ride a dirt or paved road and leave the the tech for those of us that want a new challenge each time we do a ride.
    I guess the point I was trying to make is, if you build another route around the notch make it rideable for most riders. If not, why make an alternate route? Just send everyone down the notch and you either ride, walk or get better.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruzthepug
    That's the only spot that needs to be "fixed", but not being able the snotch or the notch ruined my ride, in fact I agree with a lot of other post, it makes you want to get better.
    Please clarify

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    zz:

    Thanks for the update on the routing. Can you still ride by the Snotch to get to the Notch? is the original route to the Notch and the newer route that also started at the cattle guard still used?

    Curious if the new Notch routing getting over to the lower Snotch trail was done by the landmanager or a volunteer group?

    TD
    I didn't ride the snotch either of the two times I went through LPS on the weekend as I have always enjoyed the trail section between the snotch and notch. the new Notch routing takes out the climb and it has a couple of great fun flowing sections so I don't see doing the snotch again anytime soon.

    I came in from UPS so not sure about the condition or status of the original fenceline entry from the cattle grate.

    The snotch still starts where it has always started and ends how it always ends. The signage is definitely land manager as it is exactly the same style and quality as the new signage on the rest of the upper trail that was put in last year. Not sure who actually did the work but the notch trail building is good quality and sustainable (and fun) but from the signs it is very obviously land manager approved.

  52. #52
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    Doc puts rocks in Snotch, not Notch, now.
    Notch was Doc's, but Snotch is not.

    Ciao.

    hfly <-- reads Fox In Sox to daughter-tot daily

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    Please clarify
    The left hand turn before dropping down the rock on the snotch. That turn requires a trackstand/bunnyhop move that the average ride can't do.

    I'm not for sanitizing trails to make them ridable for every rider, I'm totally against that. But the way I see it is that the Notch is the original route and the snotch was put in for a bypass, correct? I'm of the opinion that if there is an obstacle or feature of the trail (the notch) that's ridable (even if only by one person) leave it as is. Riders can either increase their skill level or just walk it. Now if there is a bypass/re-route to avoid that trail section because of the difficulty the re-route needs to be rideable be the majority of the riders. If the re-route is done because the section is unsustainable and at some point will be closed, by all means, make the re-route as difficult as possible.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by hfly
    Doc puts rocks in Snotch, not Notch, now.
    Notch was Doc's, but Snotch is not.

    Ciao.

    hfly <-- reads Fox In Sox to daughter-tot daily
    LOL. Well-played! (One of my all-time favorite Seuss tongue-twisters as well.)

    To TD. My vote is leave the Notch alone(Still on my bucket list and if I clean it with it dumbed down from the first several times I've tried it, it won't be nearly as rewarding). Do whatever you like with the Snotch. I've never seen it and don't care one way or the other... although I think cruzthepug makes a good point.
    I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth...
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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob
    To TD. My vote is leave the Notch alone(Still on my bucket list and if I clean it with it dumbed down from the first several times I've tried it, it won't be nearly as rewarding). Do whatever you like with the Snotch. I've never seen it and don't care one way or the other... although I think cruzthepug makes a good point.
    What he said.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    MR. ED:...Before starting your car in the next couple months you might want to check under the hood to see if someone has hooked up a car bomb to your ignition system...TD
    TD, were you in my auto shop class?
    "I've got nothing to hoard...."

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver_Slug
    TD, were you in my auto shop class?
    I was wondering when hfly was going to join the discussion, and just for the record I got the OK from the ex-FS employee who put in the Snotch to make it rideable by riders of my skill level. She said her intent of building the Snotch was to give lessor skilled riders the option to be able to clean the whole LPS section of the Enchilada.

    That being said, I was in auto shop in 1965 and 1966. Fortunately for me Mr. Kahfman who taught the class was one of my best instructors and up to now I have been able to due 98% of my automotive repair myself.

    TD

  58. #58
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    Cruz makes perfect sense and I agree 100%.

    It was my understanding that the SNOTCH was devised to give an easier and more sustainable alternative to the NOTCH. If this is the case, then the SNOTCH should be rideable by a much larger number of riders, translation: The Snotch should be quite a bit easier than the Notch. If it's not, it should be made so. As trail builders, our job doesn't end when the first line is cut and the shovels are put away. The trail has to be ridden and adjusted. If it's not an easier, smoother and safer route, it's just another poorly-planned impact in an area that we profess to want to protect.

    With the post-Notch reroute and an easier Snotch, we would have two options that can both be elegant and fairly sustainable that provide different levels of challenge to all riders, an ideal scenario.

    Regarding maintenance to the NOTCH... I first rode it a little over a year ago. I just FAILED to ride it this last weekend, so IMO the maintenance has not made it much easier. The top seems the same and the crux is the turn, so armoring the exit is not going to help folks get around the corner, it simply keeps the line from falling down the hill and I think this is appropriate. Eventually, with maintenance, the Notch will reach a highly sustainable level that is easy to maintain that offers a similar challenge from year to year. It may be a bit tougher or a bit easier than it is/was but it will still be a legendary test piece that will keep this trail AWESOME.

    JMH
    Last edited by JMH; 10-12-2010 at 12:50 PM.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected]
    You aren't "training" for a certain race in a few weeks are you? If so i say REMATCH!!!!!!
    We both know that LIFE is a race. If you aren't making things miserable for SOMEONE on the ride, you aren't riding hard enough.

    JMH

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    Where did I use the word damage?

    As far as the Portal goes I have spent at least 6 hours doing trail improvements on that trail, so that you have been able to ride 90% of the trail.I wonder what percentage you wouldn't have been able to ride, if I hadn't done those improvements?

    Some of those left-handers to the chunky down sections make for some real good story telling back at the Brewary.

    We just got done building a new 2.91 mile trail that you might enjoy, it's called Aerie and has become a favorite by the ride fast crowd.
    Trail improvements is a judgement call and unless you can ride the trail before you have improved it, you don't have the requisite knowledge and skill to make that call.
    Please stop trying to make trails so that you can ride them.
    Start trying to change you're abilities so that you can ride the trails.
    If not then just walk them or ride something easier.
    And please stop talking on behalf of 90% of the people who ride. They can decide to get better, walk or go to another trail just as you should.
    How can you possibly know if the trail is being improved if you can't ride the trail before you change it?
    There are tons of trails to work on in Moab that won't make the fun ones less fun.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by axolotl
    Trail improvements is a judgement call and unless you can ride the trail before you have improved it, you don't have the requisite knowledge and skill to make that call.
    Please stop trying to make trails so that you can ride them.
    Start trying to change you're abilities so that you can ride the trails.
    If not then just walk them or ride something easier.
    And please stop talking on behalf of 90% of the people who ride. They can decide to get better, walk or go to another trail just as you should.
    How can you possibly know if the trail is being improved if you can't ride the trail before you change it?
    There are tons of trails to work on in Moab that won't make the fun ones less fun.
    ax:

    So I built the trail that you dream about riding, and I choose to make it rideable for myself and my equally skilled friends. I think I have the responsibility to make the Notch barely rideable for myself and those 90% who agree with the same logic.

    I respect with your point of view, but I have to do what I believe is right to keep this threade alive.

    TD

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    ax:

    So I built the trail that you dream about riding, and I choose to make it rideable for myself and my equally skilled friends. I think I have the responsibility to make the Notch barely rideable for myself and those 90% who agree with the same logic.

    I respect with your point of view, but I have to do what I believe is right to keep this threade alive.

    TD
    Ax- You and a few others have made the most important (and sacred, really) point in MTB, and I agree with you in a broad sense, but I would add this twist:

    I feel the builder of a line has the right (and the responsibility) to maintain it and change it as necessary to keep the original intent alive while addressing sustainability issues. If TD feels that his maintenance is necessary and in-keeping with the spirit of the line, then I applaud his efforts. He gets to decide "how hard is hard" and if it's determined in three years that in order to keep the line sustainable and open it needs to be made 13% easier, then so be it. It's a bummer, but not when we take the long view of wanting to keep a line rideable in a way that doesn't create a deteriorating ugly scar.

    Water flows, tires slide and holes form so lines change. It's important to remember that trails don't often spring out of the ground, they frequently have to be built. To assume that they will remain static without maintenance or care in such a dynamic environment is not logical.

    JMH

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by axolotl
    Trail improvements is a judgement call and unless you can ride the trail before you have improved it, you don't have the requisite knowledge and skill to make that call.
    Please stop trying to make trails so that you can ride them.
    Start trying to change you're abilities so that you can ride the trails.
    If not then just walk them or ride something easier.
    And please stop talking on behalf of 90% of the people who ride. They can decide to get better, walk or go to another trail just as you should.
    How can you possibly know if the trail is being improved if you can't ride the trail before you change it?
    There are tons of trails to work on in Moab that won't make the fun ones less fun.

    Axe gets it! Well said.

    I wonder what the next feature, or portion of trail is out there, that is slated to be dumbed down... so that the masses can safely negotiate it?
    What the EFF is "All MOUNTAIN"???

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquaholic
    I wonder what the next feature, or portion of trail is out there, that is slated to be dumbed down... so that the masses can safely negotiate it?
    Rock Stacker, all of it, but mainly the entrance and the ledgy switchbacks. Then the Jackson's switchbacks of doom.

    I heard it from my sisters-cousin's-best-friends-uncles-neighbors-diagonal backyard neighbors-ex-wife that the cement trucks in Moab are loaded up and heading to the heli-pad to fly 1 ton loads of concrete in for the next 3 weeks until it can be ridden on a skate-board.

    4-realzzeeezz

    BY
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bortis Yelltzen
    Rock Stacker, all of it, but mainly the entrance and the ledgy switchbacks. Then the Jackson's switchbacks of doom.

    I heard it from my sisters-cousin's-best-friends-uncles-neighbors-diagonal backyard neighbors-ex-wife that the cement trucks in Moab are loaded up and heading to the heli-pad to fly 1 ton loads of concrete in for the next 3 weeks until it can be ridden on a skate-board.

    4-realzzeeezz

    BY
    BY:

    It is amazing that you mention those sections of Rockstacker and Jacksons. I have done trail maintenance on all those sections and at this point I am able to ride all of it except for the hard left on Jacksons about 3/4 of the way into the trail. I am actually the maintenance guy that dumbed it down to it's present level that I have only cleaned twice.

    I don't really have any desire to do any additional work on those sections since I can already ride them.

    Today I went out and did some badly needed trail maintenance (IMHO) on one of our more technical trails. I did a one dabber on the section I worked on and the guy behind me cleaned it. You know I don't think that BIG on his face when we stopped to reflect on that section was one of disappointment. He has two children depending on him for a college education and he was perfectly happy with me checking out the trail before we rode it.

    TD

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