Moab Trail Status: The Whole Enchilada- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Moab Trail Status: The Whole Enchilada

    Just checking in to see if this trail is clear yet? Seems the higher elevation parts may have snow still?

    Second question, I've never ridden this trail before. I'm riding with a few newer riders and a dog so I'm wondering if there would be a way to leave a car to pick them up somewhere midway down before the bottom of porcupine rim? That way they can bail if they get tired and pick my sorry butt up at the end .

    Also is the route difficult to navigate? I'm thinking I'll be bringing a GPS and the utahmountainbiking trail guid for sure..

    Thanks Guys!

  2. #2
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    Only place to grab a ride out would be at the top of the traditional Porc. Rim trailhead. near the water tanks, or a little higher up on that same road (Sand Flats) but you'd have to know where the trail could dump you out to get down to the car. If you missed it, then you're looking at another 12-14 miles or so of rough and sometimes high speed riding, with no "out" options.
    I personally would not bring a dog on that ride, especially the regular porc. rim ride. Hazard-UPS-LPS would be ok, but not the bottom of the ride. Just like you indicated. There is just too much high speed dirt road and descending. No slow speed "rest" options, and NO WATER, You could quite easily kill a good dog, unless it's VERY fit, used to riding, and you carried an appropriate amount of extra food and water for the dog, and took some significant breaks.
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  3. #3
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    I have taken both my dogs (at different times) on Porcupine from various starts (LPS, Kokopelli), but only in good dog weather (i.e. cool and overcast and with recent precipitation.

    I wouldn't take Bishop (the youngest and strongest of the two) on the Full Enchilada. It is simply a long and brutal ride - for a human, let alone a dog.

    As far as trail finding, It is obvious and you shouldn't need a GPS.

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    The question of trail condition did not seem to be addressed in any of the replies thus far. I'm hoping to do the Whole Enchilada sometime around June 30 or July 1. Hopefully the upper portions will be free of snow then. If there are other riders looking to go then, let me know. I will have a van and can haul several bikes.

    Forrest

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    you should be fine at those dates, but it's so far up and near the LaSal that weather can always have a few surprises.
    I was there a month ago with friends and we actually rode all the way up from Moab to UPS ( ...long!!!) and at the top we chatted with the shuttle driver who was just dropping off a few riders.He told us he'd done the whole enchilada a few times but he said it's always a ''Ah, looks good today, let's go'' decision.
    And in late April he said people were still skiing up at the very top.

    I don't think you should take your dog for the whole ride down. As suggested, UPS and LPS would be ok then heading for the entrance of regular PR .
    But why do you want to take your dog? Part of the fun is going as fast as you can in the appropriate sections .
    And late June, it can be scorching hot in Moab...poor puppy.

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    Listen to xasantex.... imagine your dog breaking a leg on Porc Rim with 12 miles to go to the the river. What now?

    BTW.... can you still see snow in the La Sal's?? Any word that Warner lake road is clear? Dave

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    Just did Hazard County yesterday, during the shuttle up I heard that Burro Pass is not open yet. I'm imagine it won't be too much longer now though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AleutianMTB
    The question of trail condition did not seem to be addressed in any of the replies thus far. I'm hoping to do the Whole Enchilada sometime around June 30 or July 1. Hopefully the upper portions will be free of snow then. If there are other riders looking to go then, let me know. I will have a van and can haul several bikes.

    Forrest
    Forrest, have your van or some other vehicle at the bottom of the Porc singletrack (on 128) so when you've gone from the 70s at 11,000' (Burro Pass) to 107 degrees at the bottom, you're out of water and basically exhausted, you won't have that 4 mile (?) ride on the road back to town. Trust me, you want to do this. Have fun.

    Last year I'd bailed to Salt Flats road because of a hurt shoulder and my riding partners continued on down Porc. I drove back to the tunnel at the bottom and left an unopened gallon of water for them. It was 97 degrees and they were all out of water. Just sayin'...
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  9. #9
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    I see two problems with the dog, heat and worn paws. I don't know the condition/breed of the dog but I think it would most likely wear out as you descend into the heat. A broken down dog would kill the flow and fun of such a killer trail.
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    Karen's Canine Campground 2781 S. Roberts Rd. (435) 259-7922

    We love to camp with our puppy, but taking her on trails like Porc is a no-go despite the fact that Aussies were bred for the harsh western terrain and long endurance days - chasing a bike is not the same as chasing a bunch of lazy stock animals. Karin's has shade, wading pools and lots of dogs for your dog to play with. It even has private doggie cabins with AC if that is what your pup needs. Karin is really nice, and obviously cares about the dogs. Drop your dog off in the morning, go ride and pick him up in the evening.

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3360193036/" title="MoabWeekend_05.JPG by hukee, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3604/3360193036_be4a0983d2_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="MoabWeekend_05.JPG" /></a>

    While we are on the subject, the Doggy Dude Ranch in Springdale is a great solution for people who want to go ride Gooseberry, etc. and have their dog along to camp. You will need reservations at both the Ranch and the Campground.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeandski
    Just did Hazard County yesterday, during the shuttle up I heard that Burro Pass is not open yet. I'm imagine it won't be too much longer now though.
    Thanks. I don't do the Whole Enchilada, my start point is Warner Lake. BTW what map did you use to keep on trail for the UPS? Ride on. Dave

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    My dogs are tough but I limit them to about 12 miles, mountain biking. If you take them on 20+ mile rides often expect hip trouble later in life. They go with me a lot when below 70 degrees.
    My pointer has run Gooseberry, too! Favorite trail.
    agmtb

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    Quote Originally Posted by turner_dave
    Thanks. I don't do the Whole Enchilada, my start point is Warner Lake. BTW what map did you use to keep on trail for the UPS? Ride on. Dave
    I've done this ride a couple of times now and don't need a map. UPS is much easier to follow now than it was in the past.

  14. #14
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    Burro Is Open!!....

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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by linusplatt
    Burro Is Open!!....
    Thanks for getting back on topic. That's great news. Did you ride it? Was the trail wet from snow? Dave

  16. #16
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    Rode burro on Thursday - many snow banks at the top but mostly rideable. Best route ever! Hazard is in remarkable shape!
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  17. #17
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    I'm interested in doing the whole enchilada sometime between June 29 and July 2. If anyone else is interested let me know.

    Forrest

  18. #18
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    That's a tough time to do it... unless a 4:30am start. The best time is October...

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by linusplatt
    That's a tough time to do it... unless a 4:30am start. The best time is October...
    I know, but I'm coming down from Alaska and don't much flexibility in my schedule. Would love to do October, but can't make it down then. I'll just have to watch the weather if that week happens to be in the 90s or 100s, then I can't see making it happen.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by AleutianMTB
    I know, but I'm coming down from Alaska and don't much flexibility in my schedule. Would love to do October, but can't make it down then. I'll just have to watch the weather if that week happens to be in the 90s or 100s, then I can't see making it happen.
    It's just going to take some planning. Like I've said, it will be hotter than a firecracker fo'sho' so that's a given. It won't be hot at the top of Burro (11,000+ elevation) but it sure will be at the bottom. A 7am start on top would be good (leaving Moab at maybe 5:30am latest), have a vehicle parked on 128 with plenty of water in it. Have you ever even done Porc? The last time I rode TWE there were two strong riders with me on their first time there. After it was over they mentioned how it seemed a whole lot longer than they'd imagined.

    It's just that the single track section comes at a time when you're gonna start getting real hot and thirsty and maybe tired, and it's the slowest section to get down. You could bail down to the tanks (from the Castle Valley overlook point) then down Sand Flats Rd. if you or anyone you're with is feeling too tired/hot/lightheaded to go on. But by that time you've at least done Burro/Hazard/UPS/LPS. I know bailing sounds lame, just sayin'...You could even have a vehicle parked at the tanks.

    Once you've committed to going down from the viewpoint towards the singletrack, well, you're committed. Just don't be low on water at that time! If you had a full 100oz hydration bladder at that point that'd be just dandy. The X factor here is coming from cool Alaska into the oven that is Moab in early July. Hydrate like a sumb!tch the week and night before, not just the morning of your ride.

    You know, real strong riders can get down from Burro to the river in under 2 1/2 hours, some even under 2 hours, but those guys are freaks. Plan on 4 hours, maybe more.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy
    It's just going to take some planning. Like I've said, it will be hotter than a firecracker fo'sho' so that's a given. It won't be hot at the top of Burro (11,000+ elevation) but it sure will be at the bottom. A 7am start on top would be good (leaving Moab at maybe 5:30am latest), have a vehicle parked on 128 with plenty of water in it. Have you ever even done Porc? The last time I rode TWE there were two strong riders with me on their first time there. After it was over they mentioned how it seemed a whole lot longer than they'd imagined.

    It's just that the single track section comes at a time when you're gonna start getting real hot and thirsty and maybe tired, and it's the slowest section to get down. You could bail down to the tanks (from the Castle Valley overlook point) then down Sand Flats Rd. if you or anyone you're with is feeling too tired/hot/lightheaded to go on. But by that time you've at least done Burro/Hazard/UPS/LPS. I know bailing sounds lame, just sayin'...You could even have a vehicle parked at the tanks.

    Once you've committed to going down from the viewpoint towards the singletrack, well, you're committed. Just don't be low on water at that time! If you had a full 100oz hydration bladder at that point that'd be just dandy. The X factor here is coming from cool Alaska into the oven that is Moab in early July. Hydrate like a sumb!tch the week and night before, not just the morning of your ride.

    You know, real strong riders can get down from Burro to the river in under 2 1/2 hours, some even under 2 hours, but those guys are freaks. Plan on 4 hours, maybe more.
    That is very good advice and I appreciate it. I have ridden Porc before, but it was in March and temps were very mild. I'd like to do the ride with a group, but if not I may just give it a go alone if conditions are right and I am feeling good. My wife will be down there with me, but will not do the whole enchilada. She will be able to supply water at 128 or could meet me on Sand Flats road if I had to bail.

  22. #22
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    Not to make light of all these dire warnings but if you're a strong rider I would go for it.

    Yes, chances are it will be 100F by 1pm but by the time you drop down to 6000 ft it will be just about all downhill anyway. Rocky, fast and fun. Just wear a long sleeve jersey and don't short yourself on water.
    http://www.climate-charts.com/USA-St...T/UT425733.php

    I mean really, 100F is hot but folks in Phoenix laugh at that. It could be close to that hot anywhere in the west in July. Sun Valley, ID can be 95F in July. Hope for clouds.

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    I am guiding a group of strong riders down from Warner Lake on June 28th if you want to join us you are welcome. We are meeting the shuttle at Negro Bill parking at 7:30am and expect to drop out there again around 2pm. Hydration is the secret, that and pray for no flats in the lower (read "hotter") sections. Of course it will be hot towards the bottom so plan your decent and come prepared. Dave

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    More of my unsolicited advice: I would try everything possible to hook up with other riders to do TWE. Once you're dropped off at less than 11,000', then climb up and over Burro Pass---you're really isolated. I'm not making any assumptions about anyone's riding abilities but a mechanical or injury on the backside of Burro, well before Warner Lake, could mean either a hassle or disaster. Much better to be with riders who will assist each other. That shouldn't be a problem if you plan ahead. This isn't like doing Porc solo, knowing you're gonna come across many other riders.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman
    Not to make light of all these dire warnings but if you're a strong rider I would go for it.

    Yes, chances are it will be 100F by 1pm but by the time you drop down to 6000 ft it will be just about all downhill anyway. Rocky, fast and fun. Just wear a long sleeve jersey and don't short yourself on water.
    http://www.climate-charts.com/USA-St...T/UT425733.php

    I mean really, 100F is hot but folks in Phoenix laugh at that. It could be close to that hot anywhere in the west in July. Sun Valley, ID can be 95F in July. Hope for clouds.
    I would recommend caution here. 100 may not be much for some, but it can be a killer for others. If you don't know how you perform in heat, under strain, err on the side of caution. And though the ride is mostly downhill, why does that mean its easy? The ride is great, do it if you can, but take it seriously and minimize the risks. Some riders can get down from the pass in 6-8 hours. Others can do it in about 2. For some it's not a big deal and for others it is a totally epic ride. What ride are you doing?

  26. #26
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    Is there anywhere to pick up water on the way down? Me and some buddies will be doing this ride in late August. Yes, I know it will get hot towards the bottom. We ride in Phoenix so we got that going for us but still...........should I carry a second bladder in my Hawg, assuming no water is available on the way down? I know heat, and although I'm very acclimated to it, I don't take it lightly. The last thing I want is to start down Porcupine with little to no water. On that ride alone I could down plenty of H2O.

    What about stashing a few gallons of water in the bushes on the way up. Would the shuttle guys even support that? Is there any logical place to even do that?

  27. #27
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    How much riding do you do in the afternoon in Phoenix in the early afternoon in August? Scary thought, isn't it? You better treat riding TWE with the same respect. You might be able to stash water somewhere but plan on someone coming across it and taking it before you get a chance to get it. There might be water at Warner Lake but that's still in the cool of the mountains. I guess someone could meet you on the La Sal Loop road (?) (Kokopelli trail crosses it for awhile) after Hazard. Where UPS turns into LPS you can get over to Salt Flats Rd. but that's still pretty high up and in the early part of the ride.

    Take two 100oz bladders each for every rider. You don't know if you're going to have a mechanical or an injury out in the middle of that heat. I keep sounding the alarm bells here to every rider wanting to do this ride in the middle of the summer but I'm not being alarmist, just a realist. The "dangerous" part, if I can call it that, is the exposure out in the sun for a long long time once you get to the overlook into Castle Valley all the way to the bottom of the Porc singletrack. That's where a rider can either breeze through because he's such a skilled DH rider on his long travel bike or the average rider can pick his way through ledgy drop after ledgy drop, taking his time and slowly but surely roasting in the sun.

    Quite frankly, I've done Porcupine Rim 26 times. The last time I was there (September) doing TWE I bailed to the road saying "I don't need to do Porcupine rim a 27th time". I could actually see doing Burro Pass/Hazard/Kokopelli/UPS/LPS in the summer but I'd have a car waiting for me at the tanks on Salt Flats Rd. With cold beer.
    Last edited by xcguy; 06-13-2009 at 05:46 AM.
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  28. #28
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    Doing Burro to the stock tanks is the WAY TO GO in summer. Forget Porc.
    The last bit from the rim to the tanks is one of the finest DH runs in Moab. We often
    do that bit in itself. In regards to water, you could stash some at the Loop rd. at the top of Kokopelli. Although if you do the above option, you won't need to. 100 oz is fine

  29. #29
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    How much riding do you do in the afternoon in Phoenix in the early afternoon in August?
    I hear ya. The answer to your question is "None." I ride from sun up to about 9-9:30am, tops.

    In the peak heat of the summer, riding in Phoenix at 9:00am is like riding in Moab at 3pm. That's not an exaggeration. I went up SoMo yesterday. Started at 1pm, finished at 3:30ish, it was 95 degrees when I hit the truck. Beautiful day I went through a full 100oz bladder in that short time. This is why I worry about how much water I'll need for TWE.

    linusplatt: I'll look into Burro to the tanks. I'm not familiar with the 'stock tanks'. I'll do some googling. How long in miles/time is the ride you suggest?
    thks

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    the stock tanks are the trailhead for the normal old school porc rim trail. From Geyser Pass (where the ride starts) up and over Burro, Hazzard, UPS, LPS, and down the normal Porc climb to the stocktanks is about 5000' descent and @ 15-20 m,iles

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    Be prepared and conserve your water till you get into the heat. I have done this ride several times in late August and started in 50 degrees at the top and ended in 120 degrees at the river.It was brutal and we used every ounce of 100 and then went through our bottles. One mechanical or injury would be could be a disaster. Be careful and carry more than enough water. Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by turner_dave
    Be prepared and conserve your water till you get into the heat. I have done this ride several times in late August and started in 50 degrees at the top and ended in 120 degrees at the river.It was brutal and we used every ounce of 100 and then went through our bottles. One mechanical or injury would be could be a disaster. Be careful and carry more than enough water. Dave
    Ya, I've decided to carry two bladders if I can't come up with a spot to drop water on the way up. It will be a lot of weight to carry at first but the idea of running out of water with 12 miles to go down to the river is not my idea of a fun time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turner_dave
    Be prepared and conserve your water till you get into the heat. I have done this ride several times in late August and started in 50 degrees at the top and ended in 120 degrees at the river.It was brutal and we used every ounce of 100 and then went through our bottles. One mechanical or injury would be could be a disaster. Be careful and carry more than enough water. Dave
    Yeah I used to do that. Then on one ride I was out hammering for about four or five hours. I was very sparing for the first couple hours and then started drinking. When I got back I puked up the whole bladder of water. By the time I started putting the water in, my body couldn't really deal with it.

    Now I try to carry the water where it will do the best, in my body.
    Riding in 100-105 degree weather doesn't scare me. But I have learned what can happen and I think I got lucky more than once. But riding in 120 degrees would be a death wish for my body.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride
    Ya, I've decided to carry two bladders if I can't come up with a spot to drop water on the way up. It will be a lot of weight to carry at first but the idea of running out of water with 12 miles to go down to the river is not my idea of a fun time.
    Also for the second bladder pack that full of ice so it will be nice and cool when you need it.

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    On "big" rides I'll carry two 100 oz. bladders, one with a carb/electrolyte mix, and one with clear water, sometimes with a block of ice in it, made by filling the bladder 1/2 full, then laying it on it's side in the freezer overnight, then filled up to capacity before the ride.
    It's important to not drink too much plain water, especially too quickly, as this can hurt you..(hyponatremia...) with symptoms that can look like heatstroke....

    Anyway, I carry both, and know that while it hurts like hell on the first climbs, that pack will be getting lighter all day, and I'll stay stronger all day. A happy combination.

    Another tip: in addition to staying well hydrated the days before hot rides, have a bottle of water or gatorade that you drink from during the shuttle to the trailhead. Plan on leaving the empty container in the rig, that way you have all your "ride" beverage with you on the ride.
    "Always Ride."

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    Current Burro Pass Conditions

    Was just on Burro this weekend. The climb is in decent shape, a bit muddy n sections. The back side of the pass still has plenty of snow in the trees. Lots of down fall as well. Made for interesting riding. The conditions made it a mild epic. So, it is passable, but not in primo condition. The Forest Service usually gets in there towards the end of this month or early July to clear it out (if one of us doesn't get there first). It's been a very cool June and the snow pack isn't giving it up...but the heat is on the way. Give it a week or two for the snow. Hazzard is running very well as it UPS and LPS. Porci is drying out a bit, but is generally still in good shape. If you haven't run UPS lately give it a go. The reroute is excellent! Props to the Forest Service for getting that one right! Also, check out the Snotch on LPS...it's a good and solid alternative to the Notch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmountainrider84532
    Was just on Burro this weekend. The climb is in decent shape, a bit muddy n sections. The back side of the pass still has plenty of snow in the trees. Lots of down fall as well. Made for interesting riding. The conditions made it a mild epic. So, it is passable, but not in primo condition. The Forest Service usually gets in there towards the end of this month or early July to clear it out (if one of us doesn't get there first). It's been a very cool June and the snow pack isn't giving it up...but the heat is on the way. Give it a week or two for the snow. Hazzard is running very well as it UPS and LPS. Porci is drying out a bit, but is generally still in good shape. If you haven't run UPS lately give it a go. The reroute is excellent! Props to the Forest Service for getting that one right! Also, check out the Snotch on LPS...it's a good and solid alternative to the Notch.
    Where and how do you access Snotch? I just did Hazard a couple of weeks ago and must have missed it.

    Thanks!

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeandski
    Where and how do you access Snotch? I just did Hazard a couple of weeks ago and must have missed it.

    Thanks!
    bike:

    It is back up the LPS about 300 yards. It was built to eliminate the challenging steep section after the notch. It also eliminates the steep climb back up the rim.

    It is for those riders who haven't developed the skill set to ride the steep section of trail after the notch and are respitorily challenged on climbing sections.

    TD

  39. #39
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    I thought it was built because the steeps after the notch are completely unsustainable? Looking back on that section from the top of the next climb you can see it's a huge scar down the hillside.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado
    I thought it was built because the steeps after the notch are completely unsustainable? Looking back on that section from the top of the next climb you can see it's a huge scar down the hillside.
    Noah:

    If that was the case then the notch would be closed off, right? It is true that the notch will continue to be an erosion fest, just like the Grand Canyon continues to an erosion fest.

    In the grand scale of all the erosion going on in Moab the notch has been one of the positive ones. It has given thousands of people the chance to get out and test their biking and hiking skills. For that we should be thankful.

    Now that Moab has the Snotch riders have the best of both worlds. Less skilled riders who don't like uphill rding since they aren't in good shape can do the Snotch. It will be interesting to see what percentage of riders continue to use the Notch. What route will you will be taking?

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 06-16-2009 at 03:45 PM.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    bike:

    It is for those riders who haven't developed the skill set to ride the steep section of trail after the notch and are respitorily challenged on climbing sections.

    TD
    I think I'm well qualified for the reroute!

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    What route will you will be taking?

    TD
    Depends how I feel. The last 3 times I took the s'notch. Never fully attempted the notch, so at some point I'd like to mark that one off the list. Even the s'notch is pretty tricky, gotta do a little trials-y turn to clean that first section before the roller. That section is pretty awesome IMO. The rest of the bypass is 'meh, but at least you don't have to climb.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado
    Depends how I feel. The last 3 times I took the s'notch. Never fully attempted the notch, so at some point I'd like to mark that one off the list. Even the s'notch is pretty tricky, gotta do a little trials-y turn to clean that first section before the roller. That section is pretty awesome IMO. The rest of the bypass is 'meh, but at least you don't have to climb.
    Noah:

    Well thought out response. Since you have ridden the s'notch three times what percentage of the riders who ride LPS now do you think know about the new route?

    Does anyone out there in MTBR land have a video or pictures of new routing? I am sure the people who built it must be happy riders are enjoying it.

    TD

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    The "SNotch"

    Ok, so I rode the Hazard county trail down to UPS and to the "Notch" then back tracked about 1/4 mile and found the "SNotch". It was obvious that someone (BLM) didn't want the "SNotch" used 'cause it was well hidden by tree limbs and debris although there were tire tracks going down it. The "SNotch" keeps a rider up on the rim and the trail is well marked and well ridden. It drops you out right at the Porc Rim overlook and is a much better alternative to the erosion taking place on the trail after the "Notch". Can't imagine why the "SNotch" isn't the way to go. Had a great ride. Dave

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    I rode from Hazard down on the 3rd and did not see the alternate route at all. I did not ride the notch, rather I walked it, but I did notice that the section right after the notch is pretty interesting and it is tough to get back on your bike right after the notch. That flat, eroded section is pretty steep and tough to ride in its own right. Took me about three hours for the ride and the weather was nice and cool. Only saw one other rider plus a coyote and cows in the meadows around Hazard.

    The previous day I did Burrow Pass, Midnight Meadows and a bunch of other trails in the La Sals. That was some good solid backwoods riding!

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  46. #46
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    Without getting into anything about open areas, RMP's, legality, what's better, or who built what, I believe the BLM's intent since designating the LPS trail (in the current RMP which took effect fall '08) has been to reroute the eroding section below the notch on LPS. I have no idea on a timeline, or what steps of the process have been completed, just that it is their plan. As far as blocking the 'snotch', I don't think they are trying to make people ride the eroding part as much as they are trying to keep the trail from braiding. Again, no comments from me on what's good or bad, just an update on the BLM plan for those who might be interested.

    FW

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    Quote Originally Posted by frejwilk
    Without getting into anything about open areas, RMP's, legality, what's better, or who built what, I believe the BLM's intent since designating the LPS trail (in the current RMP which took effect fall '08) has been to reroute the eroding section below the notch on LPS. I have no idea on a timeline, or what steps of the process have been completed, just that it is their plan. As far as blocking the 'snotch', I don't think they are trying to make people ride the eroding part as much as they are trying to keep the trail from braiding. Again, no comments from me on what's good or bad, just an update on the BLM plan for those who might be interested.

    FW
    I know the "Knotch" and the steep part after it. I don't know the "snotch". In fact, I don't know anything but here's my question: if the BLM is trying to eventually keep peeps off the section after the "knotch" (by re-routing it) why don't they just close the trail that goes to the "knotch" and just reroute riders to the "snotch" and avoid that area altogether? No braiding, no "knotch", no riding of eroding steep part after it. I mean, the freakin' "knotch" is a hazard to even walk your bike down it. And I'm definitely not the kind of rider who would then happily hop back on my bike to ride that steep following section. There's plenty more like me who ride Porc who wouldn't miss the "knotch".
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy
    I know the "Knotch" and the steep part after it. I don't know the "snotch". In fact, I don't know anything but here's my question: if the BLM is trying to eventually keep peeps off the section after the "knotch" (by re-routing it) why don't they just close the trail that goes to the "knotch" and just reroute riders to the "snotch" and avoid that area altogether? No braiding, no "knotch", no riding of eroding steep part after it. I mean, the freakin' "knotch" is a hazard to even walk your bike down it. And I'm definitely not the kind of rider who would then happily hop back on my bike to ride that steep following section. There's plenty more like me who ride Porc who wouldn't miss the "knotch".
    Isn't that called sanitization? There are riders with the skillz to ride it. Erosion issues aside, it seems like keeping an alternative route for the those who don't want to hike 50 yds or ride the bit of uphill after the notch is prudent. There are alternative lines to avoid some of the features or jumps on Hazard, no?

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    Notch vs SNotch

    Quote Originally Posted by rockman
    Isn't that called sanitization? There are riders with the skillz to ride it. Erosion issues aside, it seems like keeping an alternative route for the those who don't want to hike 50 yds or ride the bit of uphill after the notch is prudent. There are alternative lines to avoid some of the features or jumps on Hazard, no?
    It's not sanitizing when it stops a serious erosion problem, it's called responsible trail design. Less than 1% of riders can clean the Notch and the other 99% walk down and then skid down the trail and rip the trail to shreds. Sometimes we have to sacrifice a trail feature for the greater good of the trail. 1% dislike it and 99% appreciate it. It sucks for the 1% but it does not suck for the trail while it has a chance to revegetate. My .02 worth. Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by turner_dave
    It's not sanitizing when it stops a serious erosion problem, it's called responsible trail design. Less than 1% of riders can clean the Notch and the other 99% walk down and then skid down the trail and rip the trail to shreds. Sometimes we have to sacrifice a trail feature for the greater good of the trail. 1% dislike it and 99% appreciate it. It sucks for the 1% but it does not suck for the trail while it has a chance to revegetate. My .02 worth. Dave
    A tiny fraction of riders who come up on "The Knotch" have a hope of cleaning it. Another tiny fraction just go for it and get hurt. The rest of us sane riders say "fuggetaboutit" and struggle down that sumb!tch. I never did understand how it had been incorporated into that entire trail system. If it and the following steep azz section wasn't a part of it I would welcome the change.
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    The trail would be even better with more sections like the notch. Those who can ride, ride it. Those who aspire to it, work on it and dream. Those who walk it, walk other stuff too. There are plenty of easy trails to ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turner_dave
    It's not sanitizing when it stops a serious erosion problem, it's called responsible trail design. My .02 worth. Dave
    Dave:

    You seem very informed on the erosion subject and for sure I know Rocky is. That being said could anyone explain how the bit of erosion (10-15 cu yards a year) going on the Notch section is hurting the environment in Moab? The whole Porcupine Rim cliff band is one big erosion nightmare. Is the silt killing any fish? Are the deer and elk not able to climb up the trail as they have done for thousands of years?

    I am guessing that it must be a visual thing. Kind of like when a bulldozer levels a lot for a new house or the county runs a road grader down Sand Flats road.

    If only the Notch could have been routed down the Snotch to begin with the environment would be so much better off. Or if the MPS and LPS had never been a dream the mountain biking in Moab would be much more fun, right. Or if the locals had ever built the UPS we would never have had them build the old Hazard (now that was real environmental nightmare, kind of like cows tromping through the forest), which created the new Hazard.

    Dave please explain it to me so I get what you are talking about, I don't get your logic (since your riding the trail and adding to the erosion), help me and maybe one or two others understand.

    When Al Gore and Nancy Pelosi fly around in their big jets, drive around in their SUV's (why aren't they riding around in solar powered cars or riding a bike) and live in several big houses, when they talk about saving the environment, do you take them seriously?

    Are there any pictures or video of the Snotch yet?

    TD

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    There no question that the Notch needs to be rerouted. The trail has eroded significantly over the years. The Snotch is a route that makes sense. I am a rider that has regularly cleared the Notch and I feel that, for mass consumption, an alternative route needs to be explored. With a little love the Snotch is an excellent alternative...I would even venture to say that for most riders visiting the area it is an improvement.

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    TD and others interested. I am enjoying the direction this thread has taken. I hope you do also.

    It's not the Notch that I object to, it's the unsustainable trail after the Notch that needs to be routed away from the fall line to prevent further destruction of the hillside and preserve the trail for future generations of riders. My rolling tires contribute little to the eroding of a trail, a skidding wheel however drags the trail to the bottom and I never skid my wheels. So do I contribute to erosion? Minimally. Do I give back to the trails, absolutely!

    Al Gore and Nazi Pelossi are self serving a$$holes and I take nothing they say as being based in reality. I have little effect of how they conduct themselves because I am only 1 vote so I spend my time making a difference where it counts, by building sustainable single track trails.

    Come to the IMBA world summit in 2010 Augusta Ga and let's continue this thread over a beer or three! Ride on. Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by turner_dave
    TD and others interested. I am enjoying the direction this thread has taken. I hope you do also.

    It's not the Notch that I object to, it's the unsustainable trail after the Notch that needs to be routed away from the fall line to prevent further destruction of the hillside and preserve the trail for future generations of riders. My rolling tires contribute little to the eroding of a trail, a skidding wheel however drags the trail to the bottom and I never skid my wheels. So do I contribute to erosion? Minimally. Do I give back to the trails, absolutely!

    Al Gore and Nazi Pelossi are self serving a$$holes and I take nothing they say as being based in reality. I have little effect of how they conduct themselves because I am only 1 vote so I spend my time making a difference where it counts, by building sustainable single track trails.

    Come to the IMBA world summit in 2010 Augusta Ga and let's continue this thread over a beer or three! Ride on. Dave
    Dave:

    I have found this discussion amusing.

    I agree with you that a sustainable optional alignment of the trail section below the Notch would be a good addition.

    It has been my experience that many riders have wonderful ideas, but they either donít have the practical experience to follow through with those ideas, they are lazy or they think they live to far from the project, so the project only gets talked about, but never started or completed.

    Since you are a trail designer and builder does your experience from your other projects make you comfortable with the routing and construction of the proposed optional re-alignment?

    My thought would be that for every hour you are willing to invest in the construction of the project I will work two hours. You could go out and flag the sustainable optional routing, and I will purchase some tools to start the project. What tools do you want me to buy for the project?

    We could start the construction from the bottom and work up to the section of trail just below the Notch. Maybe we could get other riders to help out with the construction, but it has been my experience that many people like to talk about helping, but would rather ride then actually help with the actual work.

    World famous trail builder, Brent Thompson of Boulder City would leave tools out on his trail projects and he and his volunteers would go out and work on the trails whenever they took a ride near a new section of trail. It would be nice for volunteers to put in a half hour of work or more to move the project forward each time the trail was ridden.

    I wonít be going to the IMBA conference, but I have done two of their seminars and worked on other projects that their trail crew has helped with, so I am more into the actual trail construction and maintenance mode at this time. Is there anyway you could get this project put on their agenda to push the project forward, so we donít run into any bureaucracy set backs.

    I personally find that more construction gets accomplished by actually working then going to meetings. What do you actually hope to learn from going to the conference that you canít learn from reading the materials they have available on line?

    If you have a video mode on your camera you could take a video of the re-route flagging and post it on You Tube for the rest of us to get an idea what the re-route project looks like and how other possible volunteers could help with the construction.

    When you get the flagging done do you think you will be able to estimate the number of man-hours needed to complete the project? I believe the original MPS and LPS project took 44 to 48 man-hours to complete and it would be nice to have an idea how long the new project would take to get completed.

    I look forward to working with you, let me know when you get the flagging done.

    Thanks in advance for your help,

    TD

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    A great offer!

    TD: Thanks for the offer but before I could consider laying out trail on BLM land I would need to begin a dialog with the BLM and comply with their trail design and build process, but unfortunately that's not going to happen for many and varied reasons.

    I appreciate trails others build and I hope visitors to the trails I build appreciate my work.

    In the last 12 months I volunteered 1,000+ hours at my local trails and as of last weekend 11,067 individual riders entered the trail head gate at my local trail between May 2008 and July 2009. No matter what or where that's a lot of wheels rolling over the trails.

    My hours are documented by the county and each rider carries a numbered county issued trail access pass, so you see these are not empty statistics.

    It's a shame you won't be in Augusta next year, I would like to meet you. I will be a presenter at the IMBA world summit 2010 on the subject of of forging successful working relationships between the public and land managers as well as land manager risk management.

    TD, I ride Utah to relax and enjoy someone else's trail work. It clears my head and gives me fresh ideas to consider for my local trails. So, while I appreciate your unauthorized offer I have my local priorities and will have to stick to riding the great Utah trails and not building them.

    Build it, ride it, maintain it. Dave

  57. #57
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    It pretty much sounds like everyone is in agreement, why the bickering tone? I guess I missed the main point.

    I personally relish the challenge of The Notch. Steep, rocky tech is why I love Moab. It took me a long time to clean that section and I look forward to it every time through. It's regrettable that the routing afterward is so poor, but I will continue to ride it as long as it's open since that is the established route. If the trail is closed, I will stop riding it. If there is a legitimate re-route approved below the Notch, I will drive down from SLC and swing a McLeod or Pulaski.

  58. #58
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    Dave:

    Thanks for the offer but before I could consider laying out trail on BLM land I would need to begin a dialog with the BLM and comply with their trail design and build process, but unfortunately that's not going to happen for many and varied reasons.

    Sounds like there will never be an optional line down the lower section of the Notch with your approach. Not sure the BLM has any more experience in building an optional route than a bunch highly motivated group of volunteers.

    I appreciate trails others build and I hope visitors to the trails I build appreciate my work.

    I am sure they do.

    In the last 12 months I volunteered 1,000+ hours at my local trails and as of last weekend 11,067 individual riders entered the trail head gate at my local trail between May 2008 and July 2009. No matter what or where that's a lot of wheels rolling over the trails.

    1,000 hours? That would be over 20 MPS/LPS sections, about 80 miles of trail. What is the name of this trail that 11,067 riders have ridden?Wow 1,000 hours that is a lot, you definitely qualify for an Obama Trail Czar, thanks for your hard work. How many miles of trail did you build over those

    My hours are documented by the county and each rider carries a numbered county issued trail access pass, so you see these are not empty statistics.

    Wow, where do you live that you have to have a trail access pass to ride the trail. I have ridden in a lot of different places over the last nine years and not one of them required a pass other than: Whistler Bike Park, Killington Bike Park, Park City Bike Park, Northstar Resort and Sunrise Bike Park which are all ski areas with lift access.

    It's a shame you won't be in Augusta next year, I would like to meet you.

    I would also like to meet you and maybe one day are paths will cross.

    I will be a presenter at the IMBA world summit 2010 on the subject of forging successful working relationships between the public and land managers as well as land manager risk management.

    How many miles of new trails have you been able to get built with this forging successful working relationship process (FSWRP)? Please provide computer links to those trails you got built using the FSWRP method, so I (we) can check them out. Do they all require an access permit to ride them? What happens if you get caught riding the trail w/o an access pass? If there any cost to get the pass? Can you provide a link to the access pass site?

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 07-15-2009 at 09:47 PM.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMH
    It pretty much sounds like everyone is in agreement, why the bickering tone? I guess I missed the main point.

    I personally relish the challenge of The Notch. Steep, rocky tech is why I love Moab. It took me a long time to clean that section and I look forward to it every time through. It's regrettable that the routing afterward is so poor, but I will continue to ride it as long as it's open since that is the established route. If the trail is closed, I will stop riding it. If there is a legitimate re-route approved below the Notch, I will drive down from SLC and swing a McLeod or Pulaski.
    Well said J. Thanks.

    I would miss the Notch if it were closed before I got it cleaned, but if a fun, challenging, sustainable reroute were built (sounds like the Snotch qualifies) I would get over it. I would rather the Notch continue as a Double Black Diamond alternate line though for those of us who want to keep trying our hand at it and then reroute the steep trail below if that's deemed to be a "erosion nightmare" whatever that is.
    (I wouldn't miss that climb back out, though I'd gladly continue to do it for a chance to ride the Notch).
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    I agree. The Snotch as the main route that is suitable for a majority of riders coming through the area and the Notch as a dbl black alt. Fewer riders on the Notch would definitely help the erosion issue and I think make more people happy more of the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmountainrider84532
    I agree. The Snotch as the main route that is suitable for a majority of riders coming through the area and the Notch as a dbl black alt. Fewer riders on the Notch would definitely help the erosion issue and I think make more people happy more of the time.
    Big:

    That being said do you think there needs to be some type of information piece in all the MTBR related forums to let people know they have a choice? Does there need to be some type of different trail marking to let people know where the entrance is? Should any of the new trail entrance slashing be removed by riders who are of a similar mind set? Should the shuttle services be advised to tell their riders?

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 08-02-2009 at 11:09 AM.

  62. #62
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    Is the "Snotch" a legal route? I will be riding this tomorrow morning and would like to check it out. Can anybody give me concrete details of where to find the reroute? GPS coordinate....? Thanks.

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    I rode it a few weeks ago. The "Snotch" was not obvious at all. In fact I did not even see it. I was aware of an alternate route around the "Notch" but did not look hard for it. Given that the route to the "Snotch" has been obscured I would say it is not an official route.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neilether
    Is the "Snotch" a legal route? I will be riding this tomorrow morning and would like to check it out. Can anybody give me concrete details of where to find the reroute? GPS coordinate....? Thanks.
    1st time I missed it entirely but it's worth the hike back up the trail to find it. When you reach the Notch turn around and walk back up the trail about 1/4 mile and every now and then look over the edge, that's how I found it. It was blocked by some dead fall but nothing I could not walk over. The entrance is a loose benchcut and there is a big flat rock face on the trail at the 1st switchback. After that it's all smooth sailing and no climbing back up to the Rim. Have a great ride and take more water than you think you will need. Stuff an extra bladder into your Hydropack because the bottom 1/3 of the LPS will bake you dry. Dave

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    I missed the Snotch this time. Oh well, I'll have to look for it next time. Another question, when we pedaled through the Warner Lake campground we noticed that the water system had been shut off in the campground. Does anybody know the status of this water system? Is it just temporarily shut, or is it permanent? It'd be nice to just have empty water bottles and a half full camelbak for the Burro Pass climb and then fill up at that campground.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc

    My hours are documented by the county and each rider carries a numbered county issued trail access pass, so you see these are not empty statistics.

    Wow, where do you live that you have to have a trail access pass to ride the trail. I have ridden in a lot of different places over the last nine years and not one of them required a pass other than: Whistler Bike Park, Killington Bike Park, Park City Bike Park, Northstar Resort and Sunrise Bike Park which are all ski areas with lift access.

    It's a shame you won't be in Augusta next year, I would like to meet you.

    I would also like to meet you and maybe one day are paths will cross.

    I will be a presenter at the IMBA world summit 2010 on the subject of forging successful working relationships between the public and land managers as well as land manager risk management.

    How many miles of new trails have you been able to get built with this forging successful working relationship process (FSWRP)? Please provide computer links to those trails you got built using the FSWRP method, so I (we) can check them out. Do they all require an access permit to ride them? What happens if you get caught riding the trail w/o an access pass? If there any cost to get the pass? Can you provide a link to the access pass site?

    TD
    just off the top of my head, in DT's defense, and for starters, the entire state of Wisconsin requires a trail pass....paying to use trail isn't unheard of across the US.

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    Neither is pedophilia

    Quote Originally Posted by jimithng23
    just off the top of my head, in DT's defense, and for starters, the entire state of Wisconsin requires a trail pass....paying to use trail isn't unheard of across the US.
    Let us hope (and work so) that it does not become more heard of....

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimithng23
    just off the top of my head, in DT's defense, and for starters, the entire state of Wisconsin requires a trail pass....paying to use trail isn't unheard of across the US.
    jim:

    Thanks for defending DT, I was asking him some pretty difficult questions and am curious if he is still working on the answers?

    It is hard to believe the state of Utah would ever come up with a fee system for trail use.

    http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/...trailpass.html

    It's easy to see why they do it in Wisconsin since they spend $84,000 in maintenance costs on each trail that the $20 annual permit is required. I am not sure how much money is spent on maintaining the KOKOPELLI, UPS, MPS, LPS and PORC RIM trails, but I would venture to guess it is much less than $420,000 (5X 84,000=420,000), maybe a total of somewhere around $5,000 would probably be streching it.

    If they were to convert the Kokopelli into a Whistler A-Line type trail even I would be willing to pay a $20 annual fee to maintain 15 to 20 really cool table tops on that 2.5 mile descent.

    I don't think the whole UPS, MPS and LPS section initial construction cost was more than ten cases of beer and a couple lids of pot.

    I wonder what the average annual amount they spend on each trail for maintenance in Florida?

    TD
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    jim:

    Thanks for defending DT, I was asking him some pretty difficult questions and am curious if he is still working on the answers?

    It is hard to believe the state of Utah would ever come up with a fee system for trail use.

    http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/...trailpass.html

    It's easy to see why they do it in Wisconsin since they spend $84,000 in maintenance costs on each trail that the $20 annual permit is required. I am not sure how much money is spent on maintaining the KOKOPELLI, UPS, MPS, LPS and PORC RIM trails, but I would venture to guess it is much less than $420,000 (5X 84,000=420,000), maybe a total of somewhere around $5,000 would probably be streching it.

    If they were to convert the Kokopelli into a Whistler A-Line type trail even I would be willing to pay a $20 annual fee to maintain 15 to 20 really cool table tops on that 2.5 mile descent.

    I don't think the whole UPS, MPS and LPS section initial construction cost was more than ten cases of beer and a couple lids of pot.

    I wonder what the average annual amount they spend on each trail for maintenance in Florida?

    TD
    I would guess that there isn't much maintenance needed on TWE except for the singletrack descent to the river with all the rocks. I am sure that section would need cleared of falling rock every so often but nothing that would cost a ton of money. But, I could be missing something entirely.

    Here in the midwest, trail maintenance is a huge part of what we do. Between trimming back weeds and branches to clearing trails of dead fall and blown down trees, we put a ton of volunteer hours into keeping our trails well groomed and clear for all users. Generally, none of this maintenance requires any $$$ aside from a few gallons of gas for the weed whackers and chainsaws.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimithng23
    I would guess that there isn't much maintenance needed on TWE except for the singletrack descent to the river with all the rocks. I am sure that section would need cleared of falling rock every so often but nothing that would cost a ton of money. But, I could be missing something entirely.

    Here in the midwest, trail maintenance is a huge part of what we do. Between trimming back weeds and branches to clearing trails of dead fall and blown down trees, we put a ton of volunteer hours into keeping our trails well groomed and clear for all users. Generally, none of this maintenance requires any $$$ aside from a few gallons of gas for the weed whackers and chainsaws.
    jimi:

    I am not clear where you think the $84,000 per trail is being spent on the permit required trails in Wisconsin. Seems like you think most of the on going maintenance is spent on brush and tree removal.

    You indicated there is alot of volunteer work done, I assume you are talking about Iowa not on the Wisconsin trails where a permit is required. Why are most of the permit required trails rated easy?

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 08-11-2009 at 07:55 PM.

  71. #71
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    Anyone interested in doing this ride on Monday Sept 21st. I know it's last minute, but I'm doing a century road ride in Moab on the 19th and decided to stay an extra day to ride something epic.

  72. #72
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    Some friends and I will be in Moab this coming weekend. Is the Whole Enchilada still open or is the top snowed in for the winter?
    "If you suck, that means I'm better. The more you suck, the better I am. So. Let me count the ways you suck." - Scribb

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    Good job! The whole enchilada

    it's wide open, even a little dusty. I did it 2 weeks ago and some of our crew were there this week. Check at the Poison Spider bike shop shuttle for the latest, daily conditions.

    Hint, to avoid the "notch" and the unridable downhill slide after the "notch" look for the "Snotch" as an alternative. I always miss it because it is difficult to find. When you get to the "notch" push your bike about 300 yards back up the trail & keep looking over the edge until you see the "Snotch" and believe me, IT IS WORTH THE WALK.

    Once back on the rim the trail is well marked until you get to a big piece of slick-rock. Look for the tire marks down the steepest section and you are back on the trail.

    Have a great ride. Dave

  74. #74
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    Thanks Dave. I just called the Poison Spider shuttle. The guy I talked to said that the forecast calls for snow up high so conditions may change very soon. Definitely sounds epic, so hopefully it'll still be open this Saturday.
    "If you suck, that means I'm better. The more you suck, the better I am. So. Let me count the ways you suck." - Scribb

  75. #75
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    Good job! The whole enchilada

    The trail is plenty epic from Warner Lake. Honestly I prefer the ride from Warner rather than from Burro Pass (to much hike-A-bike on Burro for me).

    Check the expected temp. in Moab for the day you ride and take more than enough water and Cliff bars. It might be cool on top but 4,000 feet later it will feel like you are riding on the surface of the sun and without hydration it is dangerous.

    Also, ask to be picked up for the shuttle at Negro Bill's parking area on Castle Valley Rd. DO NOT let the shuttle driver talk you out of that! and leave some cold beer in the truck at Negro Bill's.

    Go big or go home. Dave

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by turner_dave
    it's wide open, even a little dusty. I did it 2 weeks ago and some of our crew were there this week. Check at the Poison Spider bike shop shuttle for the latest, daily conditions.

    Hint, to avoid the "notch" and the unridable downhill slide after the "notch" look for the "Snotch" as an alternative. I always miss it because it is difficult to find. When you get to the "notch" push your bike about 300 yards back up the trail & keep looking over the edge until you see the "Snotch" and believe me, IT IS WORTH THE WALK.

    Once back on the rim the trail is well marked until you get to a big piece of slick-rock. Look for the tire marks down the steepest section and you are back on the trail.

    Have a great ride. Dave
    Interesting, a BIG group from MA rode the Notch on 9/19 with no problem, I wonder what changed? They were from Linwood so they were all good riders. The Snotch is also good for less skilled riders who are afraid to ride the steeper trail sections.

    If you don't think you have the skill level to ride the Notch then the Snotch is fairly easy to find w/o back tracking 300 yards. While you are riding the LPS from the end of the MPS look to your right for the lower cliff band to come into view. Since you will be riding on the rim of the lower cliff band the Snotch is about 50 yards northwest of where the lower cliff band intersects the upper cliff band that the initial section of LPS is routed on.

    The entrance to the Snotch is located off of a 75' patch of slickrock that is right next to the upper rim. There is also a lot of dead tree branches and rock a cairn at the entrance.


    TD

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by turner_dave
    The trail is plenty epic from Warner Lake. Honestly I prefer the ride from Warner rather than from Burro Pass (to much hike-A-bike on Burro for me).

    Check the expected temp. in Moab for the day you ride and take more than enough water and Cliff bars. It might be cool on top but 4,000 feet later it will feel like you are riding on the surface of the sun and without hydration it is dangerous.

    Also, ask to be picked up for the shuttle at Negro Bill's parking area on Castle Valley Rd. DO NOT let the shuttle driver talk you out of that! and leave some cold beer in the truck at Negro Bill's.

    Go big or go home. Dave
    Another option for shuttle is to leave your vehicle at Negro Bill in the morning and ride to town and find a shuttle there. That is what I tend to do for Porcupine as I would rather do that road while I am fresh and as a bit of a warm-up for the shuttle drive than after when I am tired. It means you can ride to Porcupine or Uranium and jump on an empty spot and not have to be as organized as asking the shuttle to pick up in Negro Bill.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by zzsean
    It means you can ride to Porcupine or Uranium and jump on an empty spot and not have to be as organized as asking the shuttle to pick up in Negro Bill.

    Ride to Porcupine????

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    Ride to Porcupine????
    heh. oops - I meant poison spider.

  80. #80
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    Thanks for the info, guys. The day was PERFECT and the ride was EPIC

    "If you suck, that means I'm better. The more you suck, the better I am. So. Let me count the ways you suck." - Scribb

  81. #81
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    Me and a buddy rode the trail down from Warner on Sat, Sept 26th. A perfect day for a perfect ride, the golden aspen section of Harzard's was exceptional........



    some observations....

    lotsa weekend riders out on the trail that day, and PLENTY of them way over their heads on the Notch section. A constant stream of hike-a-bikers, slipping and sliding down this section of trail.

    We opted for the Snotch section, which IMO should be made a official (alternate) "Easier" route. We did blow a couple of guys minds when they found us AHEAD of them again on the trail as they climbed back up to the rim.... it made for a good laugh. Yeh, sure there are riders who relish the challenge of the Notch, but alot of weekenders are just trying to survive The Whole Enchilada after their friends talked them into doing this trail.

    Another note, we were riding our old rigid frame bikes from the 80's... what we call "Retro Riding". Me on a '85 Rockhopper and my buddy on a '89 Ritchey Ultra. It took 7 hours from Warner to the bottom with ton's of breaks for photos, snacks and general kibbitzing. Just saying that anybody can ride ANY bike on TWE and have fun.

    Who cares what gizmos you have and how much travel you got.... just ride your bike and have fun.
    Klingon

    Ride Hard, Die Free

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelninja
    Thanks for the info, guys. The day was PERFECT and the ride was EPIC


    Wow, epic shot. One of the best I've seen. Dave

  83. #83
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    [QUOTE=LowDesertRider]Me and a buddy rode the trail down from Warner on Sat, Sept 26th. A perfect day for a perfect ride, the golden aspen section of Harzard's was exceptional........



    some observations....

    lotsa weekend riders out on the trail that day, and PLENTY of them way over their heads on the Notch section. A constant stream of hike-a-bikers, slipping and sliding down this section of trail.

    We opted for the Snotch section, which IMO should be made a official (alternate) "Easier" route. We did blow a couple of guys minds when they found us AHEAD of them again on the trail as they climbed back up to the rim.... it made for a good laugh. Yeh, sure there are riders who relish the challenge of the Notch, but alot of weekenders are just trying to survive The Whole Enchilada after their friends talked them into doing this trail.QUOTE]

    LDR:

    Great picture, the rider looks like Cosmic Ray's identical twin. I agree that the Snotch is the perfect alternate for less skilled riders. Since the other TD is connected with IMBA maybe he can get some kind of offical status approved. In the mean time it will just be a poach by those more unruley type riders who use good riding judgement or are slightly lazy.

    In Sedona there is a girl who claims to be a bypass specialist and where there is a section of trail that is impossible to ride for 80% of the group she puts in an optional route that gets a generic name of the Old Man's Bypass. Over the years the Bike Path trail has become more enjoyable to ride in the easterly direction due to her efforts. I think Bike Path may have even been adopted into the offical trail system.

    TD

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