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    Jem e-bikers

    Came upon some e-bikers today on the JEM Trail System. They were having a great time. One of them races the Intermountain Cup Series. They were so happy to have the peddle assist system. I'm guessing they spent $18,000 on their bikes and about $800 per year on maintenance and miscellaneous bike items. Followed their tracks for 2 miles and couldn't find anything that looked different than my tracks and not a single gas fueled motorcycle followed down the trail. IMBA supports e-bikes and the National Forest Service Just approved their use on the trails at Mammoth, CA. Is there a change coming? Since BLM follows NFS, does that mean we may see a new generation (user group) on the trails, creating jobs, expanding the bike economy, lodging, food and travel related services? What say you?

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    I think you're trolling for an argument. I'll let others play.
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    Speaking of JEM, has the BLM shut down those 'tiny home' rentals yet?
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    I wonder why so many people can't spell "pedal" correctly.

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    Last edited by afraid; 05-05-2018 at 08:21 AM.

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    Nice to hear that riders are enjoying their trails with the bikes of their choosing and that don't create much noise, don't damage trails, and don't impact our safety any more than non-pedal assist.

    Pedal-assist will be mainstream someday and the grumps will forget they ever opposed them. That happens with lots of issues.

    Also, locals don't own federal lands any more than those from far away. Some people don't seem to understand that.
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    Kreskin returns!

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    Well, I don't know how many different owners we have of these tiny homes but I think they have to obtain a permit from blm to do what they are doing, overnight rentals.

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    A professional "mind reader" and now a "spell checker." And I thought I was posting on a site for mountain bikers who weren't so cerebral.

    And I tested out of college english classes by using the POWER OF FORCE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelbender View Post
    Well, I don't know how many different owners we have of these tiny homes but I think they have to obtain a permit from blm to do what they are doing, overnight rentals.
    I was under the impression that they were wildcatting without a permit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmpreston View Post
    Nice to hear that riders are enjoying their trails with the bikes of their choosing and that don't create much noise, don't damage trails, and don't impact our safety any more than non-pedal assist.

    Pedal-assist will be mainstream someday and the grumps will forget they ever opposed them. That happens with lots of issues.

    Also, locals don't own federal lands any more than those from far away. Some people don't seem to understand that.
    I can see why you'd be so pro moped when you've been building trail....and presumably riding bikes off road on dirt for 40 years and you're still an intermediate and walking features that intermediates should easily be riding. Once you get that motor, you'll get over them and be so proud of your accomplishment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    I can see why you'd be so pro moped when you've been building trail....and presumably riding bikes off road on dirt for 40 years and you're still an intermediate and walking features that intermediates should easily be riding. Once you get that motor, you'll get over them and be so proud of your accomplishment.
    And the dirt digging lad can go up JEM faster than he can come down it. What's not to like? Gonna need an Ohlins shock though. Fox won't be up to the task.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    And the dirt digging lad can go up JEM faster than he can come down it. What's not to like? Gonna need an Ohlins shock though. Fox won't be up to the task.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to rockman again.
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    So one instance of motorbike trail poachers not causing an issue of course means that all trails should be open to e-bike riders because these riders were angels, and all e-bike riders will be the same? I don't buy it.

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    I'm trying to think of what possible damage a pedal assist bike could do to a trail?

    I rode one once, I wasn't exactly able to throw a roost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KThaxton View Post
    I'm trying to think of what possible damage a pedal assist bike could do to a trail?

    I rode one once, I wasn't exactly able to throw a roost.
    ......and? I see actual motorcycles on the Hermosa Creek Trail in Durango every year I'm there and last year we ran across them on several trails in Crested Butte. They were being responsible and not causing any damage that I could see. I say we open all trails to those guys riding KTM's, Honda's and Kawasaki's as well
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    Red herring FTW! Always the best argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KThaxton View Post
    I'm trying to think of what possible damage a pedal assist bike could do to a trail?

    I rode one once, I wasn't exactly able to throw a roost.

    E bikes are great for commuting, but they straight up allow people to put down more miles, ride at higher sustained speeds, are much heavier and thus have a greater impact on trails, and push the goal post that much closer to allowing motos on our trails. It's just 50cc, what is the harm? And let's face it, if you need an electric assist to ride trails, the chances of that person showing up to help repair the extra damage their bikes create is going to be pretty low.

    I see plenty of well-aged female and male bikers out there enjoying the trails. I just don't any reason to allow this problem on our trails. It is already hard enough to have human powered with mechanical advantaged bikes on the trails and many trails outright ban them.

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    These are all exaggerations. When I rode one (pedal assist mind you) the only thing it did was allow me to go uphill a bit faster, certainly slower than a person would be able to go down the same hill. Absolutely no way I was going to cause trail damage or endanger others doing that.
    I can already go downhill as fast as I want without a motor. My safety is what keeps me from going faster, not a lack of power.

    To me it all about athletic elitist snobbery...." I earned it the hard way, you should too".

    I wonder what the next polarizing mtb product will be? It seems the 29er hate has finally run its course. I guess we need something new.

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    People hated wheel size change because it meant they couldn't carry over some of their expensive bike components or they no longer had the hottest ride in town till they upsized their wheels. Oh, plus the luddites that resist all change where mad.. because.

    Don't pretend like there isn't one giant difference when it comes to any conventional human powered bike and an electric assist. Also, they are much heavier bikes.

    None of this has anything to do with snobbery. Saying that is like saying it is just snobbery when people want to keep technical obstacles on a trail. We are just trying to use logic and common sense here. It's really not difficult.

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    So what about heavy riders, should we have a weight limit on trails? "Common sense" after all.

    I'm a clyde, and I can't honestly think of one time where my weight caused trail damage. My riding weight is likely more than most typical riders and an e-bike.

    What argument should we invent next?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KThaxton View Post
    These are all exaggerations. When I rode one (pedal assist mind you) the only thing it did was allow me to go uphill a bit faster, certainly slower than a person would be able to go down the same hill. Absolutely no way I was going to cause trail damage or endanger others doing that.
    I can already go downhill as fast as I want without a motor. My safety is what keeps me from going faster, not a lack of power.

    To me it all about athletic elitist snobbery...." I earned it the hard way, you should too".

    I wonder what the next polarizing mtb product will be? It seems the 29er hate has finally run its course. I guess we need something new.

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    I'm actually personally not especially worried about trail damage from the supposed Class 1 e-mopeds and most people already climb faster than me anyway so elitist snobbery (one of many pro-moped crowd jabs) argument is out the window. My issue is that once the door is opened to the Class 1 models, EVERY possible version of e-mopeds will be out there. Class 1, Class 2, Class 3, throttle versions and yes, models capable of doing 40, 50 and 60 mph. They already exist. Just check youtube.

    There is already little to no enforcement out there as it is so people will end up doing what they want and IF they get caught, the excuses will be....where's the sign? I didn't know? Nobody told me! and of course the ever popular, "I'm not hurting anybody, mind your own business" which is exactly ALL the excuses Silentfoe and I got on Gooseberry Mesa when he politely informed an e-moped rider that he couldn't ride there. Said rider then called the Over the Edge bike shop from the mesa and was told the same thing. Two days later, he was riding at Guacamole where it's also illegal....but he didn't know and wasn't hurting anybody so it's okay.
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    I'm not much of a subscriber to the "slippery slope" logical fallacy arguments.

    http://www.softschools.com/examples/..._examples/391/

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    Went out this morning and rode a portion of the course used by the recent Cactus Hugger, I Cup Series mountain bike race. The trail section I did is a bit over a mile. The entire length of the previously single track trail had multiple tire tracks easily extending 2 feet into the normally untracked dirt on each side. None of this 2 foot wide off trail tire tracks existed prior to the race. Also saw a number of red ribbon streamers used to mark the course still tied to the brush.

    Now I know BLM is making money off the races and the race promotors are making money of the races, sponsors get some great exposure from the race and the racers come away with a participants ribbon, maybe some cash prizes and some goodies...and they get a free pass for the day to ride off trail in their glorious attempt to stand on the podium for 5 minutes with several other competitors and new chums. So now we have a 6 foot +/- wide trail where previously it was much less than this, and more desirable to the single track purists. This same trail damage happens year after year, on trail after trail during multiple other races around the country. All for a place on the podium and a bag of goodies. I'll bet there wasn't a single e-bike in the race. And yes, I am a retired racer who has slipped slightly off trail in my quest for glory. I still wonder off trail...just a tiny bit though.

    What makes it acceptable for none e-bikers to do this kind of damge? Don't they proclaim to ride by a set of rules and trail etiquite? Why can't we allow e-bikers the opportunity to ride within a set of rules and trail etiquite that both sides can agree to?

    Any thoughts on my observations and assumptions?

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    If we allow bike races, next thing you know it'll be a Formula 1 track.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelbender View Post

    Now I know BLM is making money off the races...

    Any thoughts on my observations and assumptions?
    While the BLM will charge for special use permits to help offset costs, everything they do is operating under a loss whether it's from recreation fees, grazing fees, whatever. It costs much more to manage the land and mitigate damage from those activities They aren't making any money- the are a public good that doesn't seek to make any.

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    I see some SERIOUS grasping at straws going on here.

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    True dat!

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    So no challenges to the obvious trail damage caused by THE RIDERS OF STANDARD PEDAL BIKES? Show me some damage caused by e-bikes!

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    I can go out on the road by my place a take a picture of it and it will not show that semis contribute to most of the wear and tear to the asphalt, yet they do and are taxed at a higher rate to help account for this. Having heavier bikes and more bikes on the trails will always cause more wear and tear. Again, let's use common sense.

    I don't see what is wrong with biking slower, taking more breaks, and maybe cutting a few miles off of your bike ride? I am currently doing all 3 on most my rides this spring since I didn't bike at all this winter.

    If e bikes don't really do much, then it is a no brainer, but they do offer a whole lot of assistance, at least the bike I had tried did. My mom owned one and it was absolutely ridiculous how much work it cut out and it was quite fast up long hills. I get tired of people lying when they say they barely help. No one would want to ride one if that was the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steezus View Post
    I can go out on the road by my place a take a picture of it and it will not show that semis contribute to most of the wear and tear to the asphalt, yet they do and are taxed at a higher rate to help account for this. Having heavier bikes and more bikes on the trails will always cause more wear and tear. Again, let's use common sense.
    What fee do you pay for your trail impact? I am not aware of one.

    So where was your argument against clydes....before we had ebikes?

    It seems your efforts should be on muddy trail poachers, they do more harm than this false scenario you've created.

    I don't see what is wrong with biking slower, taking more breaks, and maybe cutting a few miles off of your bike ride? I am currently doing all 3 on most my rides this spring since I didn't bike at all this winter.
    I don't see what is wrong with it either...however, nor do I have a problem with someone extending their range by using pedal assist. No skin off my back. I don't care what others do when it brings no harm.
    If someone passes me on the uphill, doesn't hurt my feelings....I'm used to it.

    If e bikes don't really do much, then it is a no brainer, but they do offer a whole lot of assistance, at least the bike I had tried did. My mom owned one and it was absolutely ridiculous how much work it cut out and it was quite fast up long hills. I get tired of people lying when they say they barely help. No one would want to ride one if that was the case.
    Nobody said they don't do much, I am specifically arguing that they aren't doing what you guys say they are doing. Again, you won't climb at higher speeds than you can descend the same trail....so, now what? No downhill riding? I mean, if we are going to use common sense and be honest with ourselves....

    This is a bias, nothing more. It is beyond obvious.

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    is this a reply to my last comment? I can't see how multi-ton semis compare to 24 to 44 pound bikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KThaxton View Post
    This is a bias, nothing more. It is beyond obvious.
    Muddy trail poachers are bad as well. Your arguments aren't very well thought out nor are you comprehending my examples.

    Hikers and bikers use their own power. Now we have a powered group of users that want to be on the trails as well. Most trails already didn't allow the powered trail users to begin with, they used fossil fuel, but now the electric guys think they are different?

    How do you not understand how different this new group is and how much of a slippery slope it is? The problem of power limits has already been brought up and as battery technology progresses, we will have people moving at motorcycle speeds using electric power. They will cause excess damage and create safety issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steezus View Post
    Muddy trail poachers are bad as well. Your arguments aren't very well thought out nor are you comprehending my examples.
    Uhm....pot, meet kettle.

    Hikers and bikers use their own power. Now we have a powered group of users that want to be on the trails as well. Most trails already didn't allow the powered trail users to begin with, they used fossil fuel, but now the electric guys think they are different?
    So exclusion is your argument now? What about the poor hikers when mtb bikers came along?
    You honestly can't decipher the difference in performance between a pedal assist and a motorcycle? Are they actually one in the same in your mind?

    How do you not understand how different this new group is and how much of a slippery slope it is?
    I see your point, as a skier, I sure hate snowboarders.....we should never have allowed that to progress.

    The problem of power limits has already been brought up and as battery technology progresses, we will have people moving at motorcycle speeds using electric power. They will cause excess damage and create safety issues.
    All they have to do is utilize the power class system and use that for trail restriction. I really can't see why all this drama is needed by a device that might allow someone to climb at let's say, 10 mph where before they could only go 5? I mean, forget about those that can go 20 mph on the downhill.

    The slippery sloped fallacy, is indeed, a logical fallacy, i.e. errors in reasoning.

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    Perhaps we need a summary of what arguments y'all are sticking with:

    -Is trail damage still a concern? I feel I've addressed that, but perhaps I'm biased. Show me how I am incorrect. Weight limits for trails?
    -Is it danger? I feel that has been addressed...although I'm sure some of you disagree....but I'm not sure how if downhill riders are going faster
    -Is it a feeling of a need for exclusion? I think the problem with that mentality speaks for itself
    -Is it the slippery slope argument? That too is silly if you look at it objectively.

    What did I miss?

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    Are snowboarders using a motor to descend? This discussion is absolutely ridiculous. Lol! And then you try and bring up logical fallacies as if you have any kind of understanding of them at all. Now you want me to reiterate what me and everyone else has said about e bikes. Not sure why I took the bait on this one.

    It is sad that we as Americans feel like you have to have a motor do your work for you even when using single track trails. This shouldn't even be an issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KThaxton View Post
    Perhaps we need a summary of what arguments y'all are sticking with:

    -Is trail damage still a concern? I feel I've addressed that, but perhaps I'm biased. Show me how I am incorrect. Weight limits for trails?
    -Is it danger? I feel that has been addressed...although I'm sure some of you disagree....but I'm not sure how if downhill riders are going faster
    -Is it a feeling of a need for exclusion? I think the problem with that mentality speaks for itself
    -Is it the slippery slope argument? That too is silly if you look at it objectively.

    What did I miss?
    How about the fact that they're not allowed?

    I agree that they're no big deal outside of it being illegal, but illegality is the main sticking point.

    Shops that sell, and especially rent, e-bikes share a great deal of the blame here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steezus View Post
    Are snowboarders using a motor to descend? This discussion is absolutely ridiculous.
    but....but...they are a different group! The argument is no more ridiculous than yours. Seriously, the worst case scenario of a pedal assist bike on the same trail as you is they may pass you on the up hill and perhaps on the level. Big deal. The world will not end.

    Lol! And then you try and bring up logical fallacies as if you have any kind of understanding of them at all.
    Explain how I misused the slippery slope fallacy.

    It is sad that we as Americans feel like you have to have a motor do your work for you even when using single track trails.
    You are entitled to your lifestyle, let others be entitled to theirs. You are not a better person just because you choose not to have assistance. Remember, we are talking about a method of RECREATION, don't take it so seriously and don't fall into the "us vs. them" trap.

    This shouldn't even be an issue.
    Best thing you've said yet....aside from your grasping at straws comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    How about the fact that they're not allowed?
    This is the only valid argument presented! I certainly am not condoning poaching trails, my arguments have been against the asinine reasons posted here.

    That said, it's disappointing that they are off limits in so many places...when I see no valid reason for such.

    I agree that they're no big deal outside of it being illegal, but illegality is the main sticking point.
    Agreed! I simply abhor all the various arguments that people invent to cover up their true excuse which is either an exclusion mentality or athletic snobbery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steezus View Post
    Are snowboarders using a motor to descend? This discussion is absolutely ridiculous. Lol! And then you try and bring up logical fallacies as if you have any kind of understanding of them at all. Now you want me to reiterate what me and everyone else has said about e bikes. Not sure why I took the bait on this one.

    It is sad that we as Americans feel like you have to have a motor do your work for you even when using single track trails. This shouldn't even be an issue.
    Please then, forego all the motors in your life that assist you in doing work for you, such as the motors that provide you food, clothing, shelter, transportation, light, heat, cooling, clean wate,r computer access, get the idea? After a couple weeks of this, report back to us and let us know how it went.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelbender View Post
    Please then, forego all the motors in your life that assist you in doing work for you, such as the motors that provide you food, clothing, shelter, transportation, light, heat, cooling, clean wate,r computer access, get the idea? After a couple weeks of this, report back to us and let us know how it went.
    What does "food, clothing, shelter, transportation, light, heat, cooling, clean wate,r computer access" have to do with trail access?

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    It's like....people don't know what an analogy is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelbender View Post
    Please then, forego all the motors in your life that assist you in doing work for you, such as the motors that provide you food, clothing, shelter, transportation, light, heat, cooling, clean wate,r computer access, get the idea? After a couple weeks of this, report back to us and let us know how it went.
    Unfortunately for you, life is more nuanced that this, or... hopefully they start letting us drive our cars on the trails as well. I've been wanting to take my car deep into the Wind River Wilderness area. It's just a car, not a truck. I see no reason why I should be excluded from the trail. Seems like an elitist attitude to exclude people like me from doing this. The car is merely assisting me back there.

    In all reality, I hope you are the spokesperson for e bikes, because you are doing one hell of an appalling job promoting it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steezus View Post
    Are snowboarders using a motor to descend? This discussion is absolutely ridiculous. Lol! And then you try and bring up logical fallacies as if you have any kind of understanding of them at all. Now you want me to reiterate what me and everyone else has said about e bikes. Not sure why I took the bait on this one.

    It is sad that we as Americans feel like you have to have a motor do your work for you even when using single track trails. This shouldn't even be an issue.
    "We as Americans?" You clearly don't realize that Europe and the rest of the world have fully embraced eBikes, in fact, about a third of all bikes sold in Europe now are eBikes.

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    Myths About E-bikes

    https://peopleforbikes.org/blog/bust...myths-e-bikes/

    or search: Busting 10 Myths About E-bikes

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    Golly! Same silly arguments against, and the same excellent arguments in favor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    "We as Americans?" You clearly don't realize that Europe and the rest of the world have fully embraced eBikes, in fact, about a third of all bikes sold in Europe now are eBikes.
    Utah is not in Europe last time i checked.

    Also, most e bikes sold in Europe i would guess are for commuting in towns and cities. Bikes have always been much more popular for that, but again, not on topic here.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelbender View Post
    Myths About E-bikes

    https://peopleforbikes.org/blog/bust...myths-e-bikes/

    or search: Busting 10 Myths About E-bikes
    Considering that P4B is a bike industry lobbying organization, funded by the bike industry, I'd hardly consider them to be unbiased.

  49. #49
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    Which myths are incorrect?
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Considering that P4B is a bike industry lobbying organization, funded by the bike industry, I'd hardly consider them to be unbiased.
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  50. #50
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    Are WB and KT the same ebike investor? Just wait until a battery explodes and burns down thousands of acres. Make them ride with fire extinguishers.

    E-BIKE EXPLODES INTO BALL OF FIRE – Jimmy Mac On Two Wheels

    EXCLUSIVE: Did electric bike battery spark a Yonkers house fire? | abc7ny.com
    Keep trying to do the awesomest thing you've ever done.

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    Lol....so this is where this going....asinine shill accusations. I suppose my response could be equally stupid and I should commit reductio ad Hitlerum.....

    Hitler was against e-bikes....

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    Also.....do you carry a phone with a battery? Just curious.

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    Keep soapboxing to 5 people if it makes you feel good. Why not man up and pedal for yourself? Just get a dirtbike then. The problem in this thread is you are being a trolling jerk. OK you like them, have fun. Bringing up Hitler? GTFOH two year old.
    Keep trying to do the awesomest thing you've ever done.

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    Your argument is convincing, lot's of useful data. Good job sport.

    I don't own an ebike, if you read this thread you would know that.

    And I'm the troll....... indeed.

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  55. #55
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    Here are a few interesting looks at e-bikes of all types. Opinions, regulations, approved e-bike trails and several municipalities that have allowed e-bikes on dirt trails by those with special physical disabilities.

    https://michigantrails.org/getinvolv...bikes-allowed/

    https://www.ridgetorivers.org/news/2...ity-ordinance/

    https://www.doc.govt.nz/documents/ab...-guideline.pdf

    https://electricbikeaction.com/where...e-road-and-tra
    il/

    https://www.wyofile.com/e-bikes-chal...l-trail-users/

    https://mwba.org/news/ebike-national-forest/

    https://www.bicycling.com/news/a2003...n-some-trails/

    Map to EMTB Trails in USA : 1558 total trails listed
    eMountain Biking Map • PeopleForBikes

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steezus View Post
    Utah is not in Europe last time i checked.

    Also, most e bikes sold in Europe i would guess are for commuting in towns and cities. Bikes have always been much more popular for that, but again, not on topic here.
    Your guess would be wrong. eMTBs are exceeding road eBikes now, at least in Austria, and I assume in other countries that actually have mountains, which maybe, just maybe, is why every major manufacturer has an eMTB, and even boutique brands like Pivot, Commencal, and Rocky Mountain have jumped on the train.

    E-Bikes Rocked Austrian Market in 2017

    " e-bike categories

    When having a closer look at Austrias e-bikes sales its easy to recognize which category drove the market: e-MTBs. And because of last years huge demand ARGE-Fahrrad decided to split its e-bike listing into two categories: e-bike STVO and e-mountainbike. And both show impressive sales numbers. The onroad-category e-bike STVO scored total sales of 53,406 units in 2017. The off road category even surpassed this number with total sales of 67,968 units. Together the two categories show that 120,474 e-bikes have been sold in Austria last year. Comparing this to the total e-bike sales number of 2016 growth stands at 39.2%!.

    According to Austrian mobility organization VC Austria the country now ranks third in the e-bike top-10 by market share behind the Netherlands and Belgium but in front of Switzerland, Germany and Denmark.

    E-bikes also pushed the average value for which a bike was sold in Austria in 2017. It stood at 1,054; up 17.1% on the 2016 value. A comprehensive Market Report Austria is published is Bike Europes June/July edition."

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    Have you ever been to Europe? What makes you think that a road ebike is what people are buying to commute? Why would they want to be uncomfortable and lack the ability to carry anything on their bike? Guaranteed that the majority of emtb sales are for commuters as that is the style of bike that almost everyone will be using.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Your guess would be wrong. eMTBs are exceeding road eBikes now, at least in Austria, and I assume in other countries that actually have mountains, which maybe, just maybe, is why every major manufacturer has an eMTB, and even boutique brands like Pivot, Commencal, and Rocky Mountain have jumped on the train.
    Austria accounts for @2% of the bike sales in the EU, so I wouldn't bet the house on their sales results. Besides, he said Europe, not a specific country.

    In 2016 (2017 data hasn't been compiled yet)

    France - 926,000 mtbs, 130,000 other ebikes/15,000 emtbs
    Germany - 3,445,000 bikes, 514,250 other ebikes/90,750 emtbs
    UK - 3,050,000 bikes, 75,000 ebikes total
    Italy - 2,339,000 bikes, 124,000 ebikes total

    FACTS AND FIGURES – CONEBI – Confederation of the European Bicycle Industries

    Germany was up in 2017
    565,200 other ebikes/154,000 emtbs

    German E-Bike Market Sees Record Growth in 2017

    France 2017
    220,000 other ebikes/35,000 emtbs

    E-Bike Sale Booms in France

    Pretty sure those countries have lots of mountains too...

  59. #59
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    I love coming across threads like this. Especially when they're started by our resident troll. He's on my ignore list so I fortunately have no idea what he's ranting about this time, nor will I see his childish reply to this post.

    There are reasons ebikes are banned from human powered trails. Those reasons have not been addressed so far in this thread. Almost. But not fully. I don't plan to get into it.

    Poaching a trail does not make it ok.

    Your opinion on the method of poaching does not make it ok.

    The BLM, our resident primary land owner, is not open to allowing non human powered vehicles on human powered trails. They have no incentive. Nor is there "writing on the wall" that it will happen.

    It's currently a $600 fine, per instance, to be caught poaching a trail.

    Please don't feed this troll. He's been booted from EVERY local page and group and has nowhere else to play.



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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Austria accounts for @2% of the bike sales in the EU, so I wouldn't bet the house on their sales results. Besides, he said Europe, not a specific country.

    In 2016 (2017 data hasn't been compiled yet)

    France - 926,000 mtbs, 130,000 other ebikes/15,000 emtbs
    Germany - 3,445,000 bikes, 514,250 other ebikes/90,750 emtbs
    UK - 3,050,000 bikes, 75,000 ebikes total
    Italy - 2,339,000 bikes, 124,000 ebikes total

    FACTS AND FIGURES – CONEBI – Confederation of the European Bicycle Industries

    Germany was up in 2017
    565,200 other ebikes/154,000 emtbs

    German E-Bike Market Sees Record Growth in 2017

    France 2017
    220,000 other ebikes/35,000 emtbs

    E-Bike Sale Booms in France

    Pretty sure those countries have lots of mountains too...
    eMTBs in France up 130%, eMTBs in Germany up 65%. As time goes on, prices stabilize, and the MTB crowd ages out, the numbers and proportions will continue to climb. Eventually, my bet is that a very large percentage of MTB enthusiasts in Europe will have an eMTB, especially if the transformation occurs that I predict: Eventually the largest segment of the eBike market will be Fazua-type systems where the battery and motor are one integrated, easily removable unit. You'll buy e-capable road/commuter/gravel/MTB, and ONE motor/battery unit. You want to ride your MTB without the motor today? Your 39 lb eBike becomes a 30 lb bike when the motor/battery are removed. You want to ride your road bike, but use the motor for a couple of tough climbs? Slide in the power unit. Look at the Pinarello Nytro for an early-adopter example. That, my friends, is the future, and that is the point where the line is so blurred it doesn't matter any more.

    I'm certain all the large manufacturers are salivating while they work on their proprietary systems. Once you hook someone on your Acme eMTB with a removable proprietary battery/motor system, the sale of the Acme road bike, the Acme commuter and the Acme gravel bike will follow. Then they'll sell extra batteries, chargers, etc. A Bosch battery pack is $900, a Shimano battery is $700. Cha-ching.

  61. #61
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    Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. I sense great fear in you Silentfoe. E-bike fear it is you have, and hate for e-bike supporters leads to mean name calling.

    I think Yoda would enjoy a pedal assist bike. After all he is a bit disabled.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by bamwa View Post
    Keep soapboxing to 5 people if it makes you feel good. Why not man up and pedal for yourself? Just get a dirtbike then. The problem in this thread is you are being a trolling jerk. OK you like them, have fun. Bringing up Hitler? GTFOH two year old.
    Yes he is indeed a troll. Just looking for an argument and uses analogies that an 8 year old would come up with. It's why he's now on my ignore list.
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    Interesting. Having a debate, with a differing opinion than yours, equals being a troll? I guess this is what happens when you have no valid arguments.

    That's like Trump crying "Fake News" about every story he doesn't like.
    (FYI, this is another analogy folks, to demonstrate that Trump doesn't understand the term "Fake News" much as a few of you don't understand what "Troll" means (hint: it doesn't mean someone who disagrees with you and is willing to explain why))

    But alas, I have made an ignore list and this is supposed to hurt my feelings....or something. At least you are now protected from my dangerous opinions and can maintain comfort in an echo chamber of similar thought.

  64. #64
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    It is not your dangerous opinions. It is the way you two cannot see how terrible your arguments are. Mtn biking is my favorite thing in the world and I can still understand why people do not want us on trails or why it might be a good idea to not allow mtn bikes anywhere. There is a time and a place for my favorite hobby in the world. You guys need to learn how to comprehend the very valid points that have been made in here and stop with the extreme amount of logical fallacies.

    The OP's original post is insulting to our intelligence, the trails are being poached, but one person was a racer and boy were they happy. If you can't understand how dumb this started off, then you are going to have a hard time selling whatever it is you are trying to argue throughout life.

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    If you reread the thread, you will see I chimed in with the stupid arguments against e-bikes, not in any way supporting the original post.

    Unfortunately, I tend to respond with a bit of vigor when I see totally absurd arguments brought up that are really just invented to obscure bias.

    Seriously, trail damage because a bike weighs about 15-20 pounds more? You have to admit that is asinine.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steezus View Post
    It is not your dangerous opinions. It is the way you two cannot see how terrible your arguments are. Mtn biking is my favorite thing in the world and I can still understand why people do not want us on trails or why it might be a good idea to not allow mtn bikes anywhere. There is a time and a place for my favorite hobby in the world. You guys need to learn how to comprehend the very valid points that have been made in here and stop with the extreme amount of logical fallacies.

    The OP's original post is insulting to our intelligence, the trails are being poached, but one person was a racer and boy were they happy. If you can't understand how dumb this started off, then you are going to have a hard time selling whatever it is you are trying to argue throughout life.
    Alright everyone, go back and reread, at least 10 times my original post, nowwhere is there a statement that commits me to the the support or ban of e-bikes on our dirt trails. Later in the discussion I provide documents outlining decisions and policies made my others....allowing e-bikes and banning e-bikes. All this in an attempt to generate discussion.

    My statement of observations prompted several of you to begin name calling and using insults against those you believe support something other that what you support. This is unfortunate but it does reveal something of those involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KThaxton View Post
    Which myths are incorrect?

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    1. MYTH: Theyre too fast!

    FACT: Most e-bikes travel at bike-like speeds. Class 1 e-bikes have a motor that cuts off after the rider reaches 20 mph. This is the top assisted speed, not the average speed. On flat and uphill surfaces, class 1 e-bikes travel on average two to three miles per hour faster than traditional bicycles. Studies show that in some instances, e-bikes are slower than regular bikes, depending on the terrain and power produced by the rider.
    How will our local land managers keep Class 2-4 ebikes off the trail? The ones that have a throttle and can go faster?

    2. MYTH: E-bikes riders are reckless, and they will harm me, my children and everyone I know!

    FACT: E-bike riders, like nearly all riders, are generally respectful of the road. We are not aware of studies or reports that show that e-bike use decreases public safety.
    This is someones biased opinion, not fact. I think anyone in matching spandex is a race weenie and a <bad werd>. Its my opinion so it must be fact or it would be if it were in this article.

    3. MYTH: They are too heavy!

    FACT: E-bikes are slightly heavier than traditional bikes, but the greatest contributor to a heavy mass in bicycling is personal weight, not the weight of an e-bike. Its no different than riding a traditional bicycle with loaded panniers.
    I suspect most low end ebikes are 20lbs more than your regular low end bike pedal bike. Slightly heavier, lol. Somehow 40% is slightly heavier. Im sure that doesn't affect stopping distance at all. /s


    4. MYTH: E-bike access is a slippery slope and will lead the way to full motorized access on all non-motorized trails.

    FACT: Pedal-assist e-bikes are fundamentally different from ATVs, off-road motorcycles and internal-combustion off-road vehicles. Motorized vehicle regulations were written before the invention of e-bikes and shouldnt be used to regulate e-bike use. E-bikes are emissions- and noise-free. PeopleForBikes works to distinguish e-bikes from motorcycles and bicycles so that e-bikes are understood and non-motorized trail access is preserved.
    Not a myth. Ebikes have motors. Motorbikes have motors. One has a throttle on the handlebars and the other has a throttle on the crank (maybe on the bars too).

    If the FS allows ebikes on the trails they manage, like the Virgin River Rim trail, I guarantee it will be less than 2 years before legally there are motorbikes and fourwheelers on it. Same with Three Peaks. The anti-fed local politicians already want those trails open to motorized vehicles. The argument that e-bikes are pretty much motorbikes (because they are) is going to win that legal battle easy peasy. It doesnt matter what PFB does. The moto industry has deeper pockets.

    This it the biggest issue I have with ebikes. I do not want to ride on trails with motorcycles. When I lived in Idaho I rode a lot of mixed use trails. The motorcycles beat the living shit out of the trails. They dont have much of a problem riding trails when they are wet. When they do the create massive ruts and runoff problems. Not to mention they are assholes that would like to run you over.

    5. MYTH: Bike paths will become a zoo!

    FACT: Most e-bike users are like most other path usersthey generally respect the law of the road and are kind to others with whom they share public resources. Riding an e-bike is like riding a regular bike. If you want to break the law, you dont need an e-bike to do it.
    Not fact. Opinion. Though I dont see this being a problem myself. People that ride bike paths tend to be California sun-dried raisins or handicapped people.

    6. MYTH: We need more public process before we decide whether to allow e-bikes!

    FACT: Many studies have already been performed that evaluated how e-bike and bike riders interact on trails. One study demonstrated that trying out an e-bike increased a persons acceptance and reduced their uncertainty around e-bikes. In Colorado, the City of Boulder studied e-bike use on shared paths and found minimal conflicts between trail users, no observed crashes, no negative verbal interactions, and safe passing.
    Not a myth. We dont need any more public processes. No ebikes on non-motorized trails. Nice, a study with less than 400 participants and 5 pie charts. Useful, not. I like my scientific studies, idk, a bit more scientific.

    7. MYTH: E-bike riders will go further into remote areas and wont be able to pedal out if their batteries die.

    FACT: Theres risk in everything we do. This is a lesson that you learn the hard way. Climbers, hikers and cyclists are rescued from difficult situations every day. Self-reliance and proper preparation must be emphasized.
    How is this a myth? Dumb-asses abound.

    9. MYTH: E-bike riders dont know trail etiquette!

    FACT: Sure they do. Most have years of trail experience. The typical e-bike rider is 4565 years old and generally uninterested in reaching maximum speeds or passing other trail users without proper warning or slowing down.
    Not a fact. Biased opinion again. Most people don't know trail etiquette including old curmudgeons.

    10. MYTH: E-bikes are cheating!

    FACT: We like to think that e-bikes arent cheating, theyre empowering.

    We need to embrace e-bikes because they get more people on bikes more often. From older riders, to those with longer commutes, to people dealing with health issues, e-bikes provide important bike riding opportunities. Were not saying theyre for everyone, but we believe that more people riding is not only good for everyone who rides, but for the entire community.

    Lets embrace the future and make the most of the many benefits that e-bikes offer.
    Ebikes like other motorbikes have miles and miles of trail they can use. They dont need to ride the non-motorized stuff too. Empower my ass. The biggest benefactors of allowing ebikes on our non-motorized trails are ebike retailers.

  68. #68
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    Here is a bit more information for both sides of pedal assist bike issue.

    https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...gan/647082002/

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    Quote Originally Posted by PiousInquisitor View Post
    How will our local land managers keep Class 2-4 ebikes off the trail? The ones that have a throttle and can go faster?



    This is someones biased opinion, not fact. I think anyone in matching spandex is a race weenie and a <bad werd>. Its my opinion so it must be fact or it would be if it were in this article.



    I suspect most low end ebikes are 20lbs more than your regular low end bike pedal bike. Slightly heavier, lol. Somehow 40% is slightly heavier. Im sure that doesn't affect stopping distance at all. /s




    Not a myth. Ebikes have motors. Motorbikes have motors. One has a throttle on the handlebars and the other has a throttle on the crank (maybe on the bars too).

    If the FS allows ebikes on the trails they manage, like the Virgin River Rim trail, I guarantee it will be less than 2 years before legally there are motorbikes and fourwheelers on it. Same with Three Peaks. The anti-fed local politicians already want those trails open to motorized vehicles. The argument that e-bikes are pretty much motorbikes (because they are) is going to win that legal battle easy peasy. It doesnt matter what PFB does. The moto industry has deeper pockets.

    This it the biggest issue I have with ebikes. I do not want to ride on trails with motorcycles. When I lived in Idaho I rode a lot of mixed use trails. The motorcycles beat the living shit out of the trails. They dont have much of a problem riding trails when they are wet. When they do the create massive ruts and runoff problems. Not to mention they are assholes that would like to run you over.



    Not fact. Opinion. Though I dont see this being a problem myself. People that ride bike paths tend to be California sun-dried raisins or handicapped people.



    Not a myth. We dont need any more public processes. No ebikes on non-motorized trails. Nice, a study with less than 400 participants and 5 pie charts. Useful, not. I like my scientific studies, idk, a bit more scientific.



    How is this a myth? Dumb-asses abound.



    Not a fact. Biased opinion again. Most people don't know trail etiquette including old curmudgeons.



    Ebikes like other motorbikes have miles and miles of trail they can use. They dont need to ride the non-motorized stuff too. Empower my ass. The biggest benefactors of allowing ebikes on our non-motorized trails are ebike retailers.
    I logged in just to say how much I appreciate this fine retort above. It is factual, succinct, and persuasive. Thank you PiousInquisitor!

    Also, and this is my opinion, e-bikes suck and can stay off my trails thankyouverymuch.

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    The anger and vitriol surrounding eBikes doesn't seem to be dying down. It's amazing how much animosity people can muster. But the only problem is... I have yet to see a rational argument against eBikes... specifically, class 1 pedal assist bikes.

    We hear the argument, "they're illegal!!" all the time. But it isn't necessarily true. Many state and local agencies have written laws specifically to make class 1 bikes legal. Additionally, the BLM and USFS legal definition of "motorized vehicle" does not encompass class 1 bikes. This was beaten to death in a thread a few months back, but my point was validated by an environmental attorney on this site.

    Another popular argument is, "if it's got a motor, it's a motorized vehicle!" As stated before, that may be a common sense argument, but not a legal one. From a common sense perspective, it also fails because it is overly simplistic. Some MTBs have electronic shift, which employs a motor. Does that make the bike a "motorized vehicle"? I don't think so. I once offered the analogy that I could tape a 5V fan to my bike, which would assist in propulsion (granted not much), but it would be absurd to call that a "motorized vehicle" in the context of excluding a bike from a non-motorized vehicle trail.

    There is the safety argument that says a disparity in speeds creates a hazard. Hogwash! If that were a legitimate concern, there would be speed limits on trails. Clearly there is a tremendous disparity of speeds on trails right now between seasoned, skilled riders and beginners. But we don't ban the vets because they ride faster than the newbies. This is just silly.

    There is the "environmental" argument. However, no one has ever shown me a study that concludes a class 1 bike causes any more environmental impact than a MTB. If people were really concerned about environmental impact, they wouldn't allow horses on trails. Those things are like rotor-tillers with hooves. Additionally, I've never seen any agency seek to restrict eBikes (specifically class 1) based on environmental impact.

    Then there is the condescending snobs who think that they worked hard to obtain their level of fitness, so no one should be allowed on the trails unless they work equally hard. This is so dumb, I don't even need to comment on it. If you believe in that argument, you are such a zealot that nothing will ever convince you otherwise.



    It seems as if some people think that if they cry loud enough, eBikes will simply go away. That too is absurd. There is a reasonable argument to make that an eBike is not truly an MTB. But they are also not an OHV, which is what the target was for writing no motorized vehicle rules. eBikes are so new, they don't really have a universally accepted niche. In fact they really create their own. But they are WAY closer to being an MTB than an OHV. So those who would simply shove them into existing regulations should logically be pushing them toward the MTB side... that is unless they are simply motivated by anger and vitriol.

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    Brilliant! Thank you. Yes, they are very self-centered people. With no decent arguments against personal choice they choose to try to limit choice. Reminds me a lot of fascists and communists.

    BLM Moab has signs against pedal assist bikes. I would like to know if they tried enforcing them. Let's see if their rangers have the guts to write a ticket and defend it in court.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmpreston View Post
    Brilliant! Thank you. Yes, they are very self-centered people. With no decent arguments against personal choice they choose to try to limit choice. Reminds me a lot of fascists and communists.

    BLM Moab has signs against pedal assist bikes. I would like to know if they tried enforcing them. Let's see if their rangers have the guts to write a ticket and defend it in court.
    Oh....... I know their Rangers do
    Give it a shot if you doubt it. Apparently you dont have much understanding of Federal court citations.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAM313 View Post
    Oh....... I know their Rangers do
    Give it a shot if you doubt it. Apparently you dont have much understanding of Federal court citations.
    Sam, if you know of cases that went to trial I would appreciate a citation to them. I don't have a Nexis/Lexis subscription to research it. Most people just pay the ticket and move on.

    Yeah, I know how courts work after working in litigation for years. I also know how to win.

    By the way, the agencies make up rules that aren't supported by the CFR. For example, there is no CFR that you have to camp at least 100' from water but the FS and NPS try to intimidate campers anyway. They can't write tickets though. BLM is relying on a CFR for banning pedal assist bikes but it has holes in it. I would love to see it litigated properly.
    MTB blog for US West trails: http://jimprestonmtb.com. Trail analysis videos, bike and component reviews, other stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmpreston View Post
    Brilliant! Thank you. Yes, they are very self-centered people. With no decent arguments against personal choice they choose to try to limit choice. Reminds me a lot of fascists and communists.

    BLM Moab has signs against pedal assist bikes. I would like to know if they tried enforcing them. Let's see if their rangers have the guts to write a ticket and defend it in court.
    You are correct that BLM and USFS has a policy that prohibits any eBike on a non-motorized trail. But as was hammered out in a previous thread, that policy is not in compliance with law. I wonder who will be the first anti-eBiker to come here and claim that government agencies never make mistakes and always act in compliance with the law!

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmpreston View Post
    Sam, if you know of cases that went to trial I would appreciate a citation to them. I don't have a Nexis/Lexis subscription to research it. Most people just pay the ticket and move on.

    Yeah, I know how courts work after working in litigation for years. I also know how to win.

    By the way, the agencies make up rules that aren't supported by the CFR. For example, there is no CFR that you have to camp at least 100' from water but the FS and NPS try to intimidate campers anyway. They can't write tickets though. BLM is relying on a CFR for banning pedal assist bikes but it has holes in it. I would love to see it litigated properly.
    I personally find it amazing that someone who professes to be an advovate for Mountain Biking is so ignorant of the history and process of building trails. Months and sometimes years goes into the process of building an MTB trail with multiple usage reviews. The trails in Moab are only allowed because of the strict no motorized vehicles caveat. While you may not find an on-point specific law about E-bike usage, I guarantee you will find one that covers disobeying public land regulations and there is mounds of paperwork justifying how BLM administers their trails.
    Im sorry you couldnt find anything in case law. If you come out here and ride your e-bike on our trails I can arrange for you to become the test case?
    Last edited by SAM313; 06-07-2018 at 01:33 PM.

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    The "foe" does everything he can to intimidate pedal assist bikers using threats of trail closure, personal intimidation and false statements about the exorbitant fees imposed by the local blm authorities for riding motorized vehicles on nonmotorized trails. I called blm to confirm his claims. The enforcement officer could not give me a straight answer. He said he left his ticket book in his truck, but wouldn't lift his backside from his soft chair to confirm the dollar amount. Who is he working for? Obviously not the people who pay his wages. He did say it was much less than the "foe" threatened everyone with.

    So if you happen upon a local who tries to convince you he has some level of authority regarding trail regulations, don't get upset, give him a big hug and tell him you appreciate his enthusiasm and you noticed a spot about 50 miles down the the trail where someone built a "cheater line" and he should immediately tear it out before someone avoids serious injury.

  77. #77
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    M O T O R

    Say it again.

    M O T O R

    E bikes have a M O T O R.

    Don't get too worked up over being banned from BLM trails and most other trails because they are not going to allow anything with......... M O T O R S on the trail.

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    Don't own any pedal assist bikes yet, so not really an issue for me. Could become one in about 15 years after my double hip replacement. I'm counting on Trump, Musk and Zinke to shrink batteries and motors, permit access on all trails so as to completely de-nuke this whole issue.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    There is the safety argument that says a disparity in speeds creates a hazard. Hogwash! If that were a legitimate concern, there would be speed limits on trails. Clearly there is a tremendous disparity of speeds on trails right now between seasoned, skilled riders and beginners. But we don't ban the vets because they ride faster than the newbies. This is just silly.
    imo it depends. Picture an uphill-only multi-use trail with cyclists, hikers, kids & dogs, with inconsistent lines of sight; typical in our area. Add a bike going uphill at 20mph? I'd be concerned about safety.

  80. #80
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    [QUOTE=lkgeo;13707398]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    There is the safety argument that says a disparity in speeds creates a hazard. Hogwash! If that were a legitimate concern, there would be speed limits on trails. Clearly there is a tremendous disparity of speeds on trails right now between seasoned, skilled riders and beginners. But we don't ban the vets because they ride faster than the newbies. This is just silly.[/QUOTE=Jim_bo;13693858]


    imo it depends. Picture an uphill-only multi-use trail with cyclists, hikers, kids & dogs, with inconsistent lines of sight; typical in our area. Add a bike going uphill at 20mph? I'd be concerned about safety.
    Specialized S Turbo goes at least 28 mph with little input. I almost never ever see anyone pedaling on mountain bike trails at that speed. Blind corners, slippery sections and walkers are always an issue when you are at higher speed. Engines and motors have been put on bikes for 100 years but they were not permitted on our trails so what is different now? Slicker packaging yes but it is still the same deal.

  81. #81
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    [QUOTE=Pedalon2018;13707404]
    Quote Originally Posted by lkgeo View Post

    Specialized S Turbo goes at least 28 mph with little input. I almost never ever see anyone pedaling on mountain bike trails at that speed. Blind corners, slippery sections and walkers are always an issue when you are at higher speed. Engines and motors have been put on bikes for 100 years but they were not permitted on our trails so what is different now? Slicker packaging yes but it is still the same deal.
    The Turbo S isn't a mountain bike. You can get a Haybusa that goes 200MPH, what does that have to do with an enduro motorcycle?

  82. #82
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    [QUOTE=honkinunit;13708085]
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalon2018 View Post

    The Turbo S isn't a mountain bike. You can get a Haybusa that goes 200MPH, what does that have to do with an enduro motorcycle?
    About two months ago, an illegal rider on the Kal Haven Trail in Western Michigan let me ride his S Turbo on this relatively smooth trail. It was a blast but illegal so I rode in the street. Many road and gravel bikes ride this trail cause it ends on an awesome beach on Lake Michigan 34 miles down the path. So yep no mountain bike but so what as it does fine on trails like these. We traded bikes for 15 minutes. It was my first ebike experience. I will own one someday but will not ride it where it is not permitted. I think he said he dropped 7 grand which I thought was fair. Oh, I did come across a couple of hot motorcycles last year on this trail but they went very slow.

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    Who cares about ebikes on Jem, that whole trail system is completely lame.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Speaking of JEM, has the BLM shut down those 'tiny home' rentals yet?
    Spoke with a local who tried to get some Yurts approved for overnight rentals on blm managed land, said they shot him down. Also talked with a number of campers on the Jem Trail area this spring and they expressed their disappointment with their favorite camping spots being given to a for profit business while other blm campsites in the area have been closed.

    The Tiny Home Rentals are operating like a vendor. They take away land and opportunity for the general public to camp, sell a product to the general public, and only pay 3% of their total income to blm for their land lease. Sounds like a VENDOR to me as opposed to how they are being permitted, like a guide service. Vendors are required to submit a bid when providing permanent services on blm managed land. Blm does require them to move after 14 days. But they just move a few hundred yards down the road to take up another prime campsite. Blm should be reevaluating their Tiny Home policy, if they have one.

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    Are Electric Mountain Bikes Ruining Our Trail Systmes?


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