Finding UPS and LPS

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  • 10-14-2008
    Mica
    Finding UPS and LPS
    I'm going to be riding down from Hazard this coming weekend for the first time and was wondering how difficult it is to locate UPS and LPS after dropping down on Koko?
    Anyone feel comfortable with giving me some directions or an idea?
    Thanks so much in advance!
  • 10-14-2008
    flipnidaho
    IfI remember correctly, after Koko, cross the cattle guard, go up 100 yards and make a right on singletrack to UPS.
    After UPS, make a left on a fire road, right at the fork, cross over a cattle guard and make a hard right immediately after the cattle guard...
    For better directions, go to utahmountainbiking.com
  • 10-14-2008
    Mica
    Thanks so much for the info and that website is very helpful as well with directions..the only part that wasn't crystal clear was LPS, where it starts and how to find it. But with your general directions from above and a stop in the LBS we should be good.
    I'm really looking forward to this ride and the weather in Moab is going to be awesome this weekend.
  • 10-14-2008
    flipnidaho
  • 10-14-2008
    287sds
    The last time I rode it UPS was closed, you might check first
  • 10-14-2008
    Mica
    Great Pics, you musta been there just recently. Looks like muy kinda fun and I have those same Spectrum shorts!
  • 10-14-2008
    flipnidaho
    That's my significant other Rocknrollbarbie. She LOVES her Mistress shorts (even if they are a little big.
    We were there on Sunday. Be careful on the Notch/Upper Body Bag. It's very sandy and loose. We gave it a shot but couldn't make the right hander down the chute... You almost need a spotter just trying to walk down that thing!
    Have a great time!!!
  • 10-14-2008
    Mica
    Mine are big on me too! Who did you shuttle with? I was thinking of Poison Spider?
    Which section is the Notch/Upper Body Bag on? Thanks for the beta.
  • 10-14-2008
    flipnidaho
    We like Coyote Shuttle (435) 259-8656
    Ask for Christy. She's a friend of ours and super nice. Tell her that Gary and Sarah Jo said "Hello".
  • 10-14-2008
    mtroy
    I second Coyote Shuttle. And Christy. And John the dog, but I understand he was just visiting that day.
  • 10-14-2008
    Mica
    Great, thanks for the info on the shuttle..
  • 10-14-2008
    breckseth
    Coyote's...
    ...great if you like sitting in a broken down van half way up, watching people laugh at you from the windows of the Poison Spider Shuttle! :thumbsup:

    FYI> UPS is STRICKLY closed right now> rangers on patrol etc. They (BLM & FS) are re-routing and we should be able to have at the legit alignment next spring.
  • 10-15-2008
    Dangerous E
    So what's the best route down after Hazard and Kokopelli if UPS is closed?
  • 10-15-2008
    287sds
    UPS closed
    Poison Spider Shuttle driver told us to go over the cattle guard, instead of then going right to UPS, go straight on. You follow the track straight ahead, when you drop down on to the dirt road(maybe a couple of miles) turn right,(it's a T junction) head up the road until you come to another cattle guard, within 2 yards of the cattle guard turn right on to the singletrack and follow your nose.

    Hope it helps. I hadn't be on it before and we all found it ok.

    Have a fun ride
  • 10-15-2008
    rkopelov
    Superfun!
    Did the ride from Hazard yesterday, first time--:thumbsup: Thanks to Poison Spider for their efficient shuttle and faultless directions. Had to skip UPS--wasn't sure if it would be worth a $75 fine:mad: If that "UBB" part is the slippery stuff switchbacking right after the notch, I cleaned it no prob--actually it was really fun sliding around in the talcum powder!LPS was worth the hype, absolutely. I felt like I jumped probably 400 times:D :D :D But now back to work, after 7 days of mountain biking and freezing at night in Fruita/GJ/Moab--good times! Very lucky--no mechanicals in 125 miles of riding, and amazingly, no crashes! woo hoo!! Will post pics soon.....
  • 10-15-2008
    KRob
    Ummm.... maybe I'm dense but none of these directions make any sense to me.

    Here's what you do. Cross the paved road at the end of Hazard and bomb down Kokopelli until you come to the cattle guard (couple of miles maybe). UPS veers off to the right just after that. The ground and foliage all looks red right there from fire retardant and it's a very obvious singletrack trail. Just past that is a sign that (I assume) warns you not to ride it because it's closed. We didn't read it.

    Once you're on UPS it is easy to follow, stays close to the rim, and flows naturally into LPS.

    As others have said..... ride at you own risk. I would add... don't ride it at you own risk too. It is not to be missed.

    Don't you just love quandries?
  • 10-16-2008
    breckseth
    yup
    the confusing part about the Kok to LPS directions is where the T intersection is on the dirt road. Here be the scoop. You've past the right turn for UPS and the sign warning of severe spanking, rallied a double track and spit out onto the "T" intersection; yes you turn right; yes you climb slightly, BUT then the road goes down a sweeping left turn with incredible views (you are still on the road, which is Sand Flats RD BTW), as this road bends back around to the west, you come to a cattle guard. LPS is the single track that drops in directly at the cattle guard. :thumbsup:
  • 10-16-2008
    KRob
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by breckseth
    the confusing part about the Kok to LPS directions is where the T intersection is on the dirt road. Here be the scoop. You've past the right turn for UPS and the sign warning of severe spanking, rallied a double track and spit out onto the "T" intersection; yes you turn right; yes you climb slightly, BUT then the road goes down a sweeping left turn with incredible views (you are still on the road, which is Sand Flats RD BTW), as this road bends back around to the west, you come to a cattle guard. LPS is the single track that drops in directly at the cattle guard. :thumbsup:

    Yes, those directions are correct and well stated if you're skipping UPS.
  • 10-16-2008
    Mica
    Thanks for all the route clarification.
    Sounds like UPS is a personal choice at this point.
  • 10-20-2008
    traildoc
    1 Attachment(s)
    Personal Responsibility- To Do or Not to Do???????
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mica
    Thanks for all the route clarification.
    Sounds like UPS is a personal choice at this point.

    Don't expect to get any positive input from the shuttle service regarding riding a closed trail like the UPS. The shuttle services get a permit from the governing land manager to be able to provide their service, so if they tell the riding public that it is OK to ride a closed trail, they will LOSE their permit. If a rider said Fred at XYZ shuttle service said it was OK to ride the trail or no one has been busted in two months, it would be stupid for them to say anything other than DON'T RIDE THE TRAIL!

    Even though the closed trail is one of the most fun trails in Moab it might not be worth it. If you do decide to do it don't destroy the archeological sites and stay away from the eagles. There is much to be learned from those sites and the eagles need peace and quite to be happy. Eagles are very important to the environment and by eating rabbits, squirrels and other small critters they grow to be pretty big and it is fun to see them fly.

    Better yet stay away from Moab and go to some other area, they probably would appreciate your business during the current economic slowdown. That way the archeologists and eagles will be happy, and you will avoid the temptation which might get you a well deserved ticket if you get busted, or a BIG SMILE on your face if you don't get caught.
  • 10-21-2008
    breckseth
    good lord
    that is funny. Yeah, go somewhere else and save the eagles. Speakin' of, go skiing somewhere other than Breckenridge this winter and save some inocent snow flakes :thumbsup:
  • 10-21-2008
    Dangerous E
    Yeah, I think the thing to do is go and ride a closed trail that has a federally protected species nesting on it while BLM or USFS or whoever is trying to do trail maintenance. Make sure you bring a baby seal to club and an American flag to piss on while you're out there. :skep:

    Serious now, riding closed trials like this is stupid not only because getting caught means a fine and whatever else, but also because if you choose to ride a closed trail in a high profile area like Moab then you are a representative of the MTB community at large. Dumb moves like this are what gets trails closed. And given all the work that has been done in recent years to get trails like Hazard County (legally) open, you're just screwing the rest of us and ruining all the hard work locals have done to gain legal access. :madman:

    Trail is closed. Stay off of it.
  • 10-21-2008
    traildoc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dangerous E

    Serious now, riding closed trials like this is stupid not only because getting caught means a fine and whatever else, but also because if you choose to ride a closed trail in a high profile area like Moab then you are a representative of the MTB community at large. Dumb moves like this are what gets trails closed. And given all the work that has been done in recent years to get trails like Hazard County (legally) open, you're just screwing the rest of us and ruining all the hard work locals have done to gain legal access. :madman:Trail is closed. Stay off of it.

    Dangerous:

    You point is well taken, but in reality might not be entirely correct logic.

    I think the UPS is about six years old. Both Hazard and the UPS were built around the same time and the MPS and LPS were constructed about one year later.

    The LPS was accepted early on and Hazard was virtually shutdown due to major deconstruction and the UPS and MPS were made illegal, but was still be ridden by 1,000's of riders.

    Due to economic reasons (Moab needed this trail to bring people to Moab) Hazard was re-routed and brought back into the inventory of must do trails. The character of the trail was changed significantly, but it fits into the fast and flowy character of the rest of the ride, so it is a definite plus, but the new Hazard probably would have never have been built if the original Hazard had not been built.

    People became addicted to having a fun trail to ride after riding Burro, so Hazard was an important addition to the Whole Enchilada concept. It was a bummer to ride down Burro then have to ride down the La Sal Mountain Loop road and ride for 5 to 6 miles on pavement to the Kokopelli.

    That still left the MPS and UPS being closed, but being poached regularly because it is a really fun trail and the perfect link to the LPS.

    I am not sure what came first the UPS or Hazard, but they both were the catalyst to the MPS and LPS. Without those two trails people would still be riding Porcupine Rim from the cattle tank on Sand Flats road.

    Some people maybe like you, the eagles and archeologists would probably think that would be a good thing. I would tend to believe that thousands of other people who have ridden from Hazard down would have a different opinion.

    The point is for better or worst there would never have been the possibly of having a legal UPS and MPS if there had never been an illegal Hazard, MPS and UPS. Fortunately the LPS was adopted early on by the BLM, so the painful process of getting it adopted was circumvented, not sure how happy the eagles and environmentalists are about that fast tracking. I am curious how you feel about riding the LPS?
  • 10-21-2008
    Dangerous E
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by traildoc
    The point is for better or worst there would never have been the possibly of having a legal UPS and MPS if there had never been an illegal Hazard, MPS and UPS. Fortunately the LPS was adopted early on by the BLM, so the painful process of getting it adopted was circumvented, not sure how happy the eagles and environmentalists are about that fast tracking. I am curious how you feel about riding the LPS?

    Traildoc, you make some good points, none of which I actually disagree with. I think you and I are actually arguing two differnt points. I'm kind of being a hyppocrite by saying this, but I don't really have a huge issue w/ trails that aren't "legal" in the traditional sense of the word (i.e. the original Hazard). I'm just saying, that poaching a well known trail (UPS) that has been temporarily closed by the powers that be reflects poorly on all of us and is a step in the wrong direction. Especially after there has been so much work done w/ the BLM to have these deemed actual trails.

    But I totally smell what you're steppin' in...
  • 10-21-2008
    traildoc
    Has the Process Really Been Delayed?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dangerous E
    Traildoc, you make some good points, none of which I actually disagree with. I think you and I are actually arguing two differnt points. I'm kind of being a hyppocrite by saying this, but I don't really have a huge issue w/ trails that aren't "legal" in the traditional sense of the word (i.e. the original Hazard). I'm just saying, that poaching a well known trail (UPS) that has been temporarily closed by the powers that be reflects poorly on all of us and is a step in the wrong direction. Especially after there has been so much work done w/ the BLM to have these deemed actual trails.

    Dangerous:

    I think it's the Forest Service not the BLM, but that doesn't really matter. I personally believe that 99.9999% the thousands of people who have ridden the UPS during is closure have caused little if any eagle or archeological damage. If you have proof to the contrary I would like to see it. For the other .0001% they should be punished.

    I am really curious about the archeological part of the whole thing. What is the main thing that an archeologist learns when they study one of these sites? I keep wondering what it is that these guys find out that is really important to our current way of life. Is someone going to publish a report of their findings? Where can I find reports of findings from other sites? Help me out so I can understand it better. Aren't there more important things to spend government funds on these days?

    What quantifiable change is really going to take place when the UPS is re-routed and finally made legal? The trail certainly isn't going to be more sustainable it's on rock now.

    Is the Forest Service pretending to be upset about the illegal use because that is their job and they know the difference in doing something important like fighting a forest fire or doing a controlled burn to reduce fire loading?

    Has the process of getting the UPS legalized really been delayed due to people riding it illegally or did it really speed up the process of getting it re-routed and legalized? I am curious if it really could have been legalized faster? Doen't seem like there is any funding to do things quickly these days or anytime soon.
  • 10-22-2008
    shaft
    Holy Harshness
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by breckseth
    that is funny. Yeah, go somewhere else and save the eagles. Speakin' of, go skiing somewhere other than Breckenridge this winter and save some inocent snow flakes :thumbsup:

    How did you get to be such a good a$$ hole....years of practice right?
  • 10-22-2008
    traildoc
    1 Attachment(s)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by traildoc
    Don't expect to get any positive input from the shuttle service regarding riding a closed trail like the UPS. The shuttle services get a permit from the governing land manager to be able to provide their service, so if they tell the riding public that it is OK to ride a closed trail, they will LOSE their permit. If a rider said Fred at XYZ shuttle service said it was OK to ride the trail or no one has been busted in two months, it would be stupid for them to say anything other than DON'T RIDE THE TRAIL!

    Even though the closed trail is one of the most fun trails in Moab it might not be worth it. If you do decide to do it don't destroy the archeological sites and stay away from the eagles. There is much to be learned from those sites and the eagles need peace and quite to be happy. Eagles are very important to the environment and by eating rabbits, squirrels and other small critters they grow to be pretty big and it is fun to see them fly.

    Better yet stay away from Moab and go to some other area, they probably would appreciate your business during the current economic slowdown. That way the archeologists and eagles will be happy, and you will avoid the temptation which might get you a well deserved ticket if you get busted, or a BIG SMILE on your face if you don't get caught.

    I forgot to add foxes to the list.
  • 10-27-2008
    geomatt
    Rode on Sunday
    Rode the UP/LP/PPS on Sunday with some knuckledragging friends. I didn't feel like I was doing anything illegal. :cornut:

    Did see any signs (though I wasn't lookun).

    I'm not sure where the U ends and the L begins but it seemed like they had a race that began on UPS on Saturday??
  • 10-30-2008
    rockman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by traildoc
    Dangerous:

    I think it's the Forest Service not the BLM, but that doesn't really matter. I personally believe that 99.9999% the thousands of people who have ridden the UPS during is closure have caused little if any eagle or archeological damage. If you have proof to the contrary I would like to see it. For the other .0001% they should be punished.

    I am really curious about the archeological part of the whole thing. What is the main thing that an archeologist learns when they study one of these sites? I keep wondering what it is that these guys find out that is really important to our current way of life. Is someone going to publish a report of their findings? Where can I find reports of findings from other sites? Help me out so I can understand it better. Aren't there more important things to spend government funds on these days?

    The USFS or BLM stance on MPS and UPS is no doubt tied to the Historical Antiquities Act of 1906 and the Endangered Species Act of 1973. Most of us are more than aware of the latter but much less is known about the Antiquities Act, even though it was this legislation that led to creation of our National Park System. Anyway, obviously two very impt acts of congressional legislation that guide other agencies as well and also give them lots of clout. Mostly for the better, but not always. I suspect Utah Game and Fish, US Fish and Wildlife Service, USFS staff archeologists are the ones putting the pressure on the USFS or BLM to keep the trails closed. An illegally built trail has little chance against this legislation. It will take some serious advocacy work.

    But to answer your question doc, archeologists learn lots about these sites and our native american heritage and publish their findings in several different journals if you care to search. On the other hand, not that I have ridden UPS but it's still near roads and easily accessed. I suspect that the ruins were long ago looted and vandalized.
  • 11-01-2008
    traildoc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rockman
    The USFS or BLM stance on MPS and UPS is no doubt tied to the Historical Antiquities Act of 1906 and the Endangered Species Act of 1973. Most of us are more than aware of the latter but much less is known about the Antiquities Act, even though it was this legislation that led to creation of our National Park System. Anyway, obviously two very impt acts of congressional legislation that guide other agencies as well and also give them lots of clout. Mostly for the better, but not always. I suspect Utah Game and Fish, US Fish and Wildlife Service, USFS staff archeologists are the ones putting the pressure on the USFS or BLM to keep the trails closed. An illegally built trail has little chance against this legislation. It will take some serious advocacy work.

    But to answer your question doc, archeologists learn lots about these sites and our native american heritage and publish their findings in several different journals if you care to search. On the other hand, not that I have ridden UPS but it's still near roads and easily accessed. I suspect that the ruins were long ago looted and vandalized.

    Rocky:

    It is always good to hear from you. I don't know why I don't email you directly on these types of questions. I am interested in the type of information that the archeologists hope to gain from this kind of site.

    Since it is about 400 yards from a well established hunters camp that has a $100,000 Forest Service approved restroom facility about 100 yards from the campsite, I would assume that the arch site has been frequented by treasure hunters for a number of years.

    Are there Internet websites that provide the educational information about such sites? I spend about half my life cruising the net and it would be nice to learn something in the process.

    Doc
  • 11-03-2008
    rockman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by traildoc
    Rocky:

    It is always good to hear from you. I don't know why I don't email you directly on these types of questions. I am interested in the type of information that the archeologists hope to gain from this kind of site.

    Since it is about 400 yards from a well established hunters camp that has a $100,000 Forest Service approved restroom facility about 100 yards from the campsite, I would assume that the arch site has been frequented by treasure hunters for a number of years.

    Are there Internet websites that provide the educational information about such sites? I spend about half my life cruising the net and it would be nice to learn something in the process.

    Doc

    My experience in working with Grand Can. Nat. Park archeologists is that they're a bit secretive concerning data recovery and site stablization efforts. I know very little about management strategies for the continued preservation of arch sites in the Moab area but typically the goal is in-place preservation with minimal impact to the integrity of the resources. When that is not possible, they do data recovery through excavation. It is impt to keep in mind that even though these sites may seem insignificant, we cannot predict what useful information they may offer for future researchers. One only has to look at Lake Powell, to be reminded in hindsight of how much could have been learned from sites that at the time Glen Canyon Dam was built were deemed uninformative and therefore insignificant.

    Anyway, it seems to me that a lot of the archeology work gets buried in progress reports to funding agencies like the Bureau of Reclamation but papers concerning paleo-indian research question can be found in:
    http://www.altamirapress.com/RLA/jou...ckIssues.shtml
    http://www.aaanet.org/publications/pubs/
    http://www.saa.org/Publications/AmAntiq/amantiq.html
  • 11-06-2008
    jcospoco
    we could use your business in Breck this year, plenty of snowflakes for all of us to trash. fools.
  • 11-07-2008
    breckseth
    Actually
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by shaft
    How did you get to be such a good a$$ hole....years of practice right?

    I used to be quite civil until I started hanging out with all these guys from the east coast...
  • 11-07-2008
    jcospoco
    the easties are hardcore for sure. us southerners are way more kind.
    southern by birth, coon (AND YANKEE) hunter by the grace of god
  • 11-07-2008
    breckseth
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jcospoco
    the easties are hardcore for sure. us southerners are way more kind.
    southern by birth, coon (AND YANKEE) hunter by the grace of god

    dont forget crawfish!