An Epic Trail From Gooseberry down to Goosebumps Trail- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    An Epic Trail From Gooseberry down to Goosebumps Trail

    Yeah, I know, everyone wants it but those huge cliffs seem to get in the way.

    Imagine getting shuttled up to The Goose, riding South Rim and Hidden Canyon, cross over to the North Rim Trail, then drop down to Goosebumps and pick a path back to Hurricane. This would be a world class epic ride.

    There is the old trail by the windmill but it is a long way from Goosebumps and JEM.

    There is discussion about dropping into Apple Valley and a trail back to JEM, again a long tedious ride but has potential.

    There is another way.

    A path through a cliff could be a tunnel or half tunnel. We see these in MTB videos in the Alps in limestone and granite. Also, a section of the John Muir Trail to Little Yosemite Valley / Nevada Falls is cut out of a shear granite cliff, a tunnel with one side open. Then there is the nearby Zion NP tunnels.

    This plan is entirely feasible. It would take years to gather the permits and financing but that shouldn't be an excuse. It needs local leadership to keep pushing the project forward. Quentin? DMBTA? It would take tough leadership that keeps pushing the project forward and overcoming the objections.

    Such a trail would put Hurricane on the MTB map big time. It would compete with The Whole Enchilada in fame but be open all year. It would connect the network of trails on The Goose to the JEM system, Gould's, and Hurricane Rim.

    I'll probably be too old to ride it when completed but I would like to sit at a TH in my wheel chair and watch the first riders pass by. I would love to see those smiles!

    :-)
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  2. #2
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    Move here..get involved in the scene and bring a few million with you and build it. That would only be 1500 feet of descending... that's juuuuuuust a little short of TWE

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by STT GUY View Post
    Move here..get involved in the scene and bring a few million with you and build it. That would o nly be 1500 feet of descending... that's juuuuuuust a little short of TWE
    1) The trails with the tunnel would be epic. Different than TWE but just as epic. Also open when TWE is snowed in.

    2) 4 guys, two wheel barrels, a generator, two light jackhammers doesn't cost much. I'm not sure how long it would take, probably a month, but any local utility pipeline contractor could help estimate that.

    3) BLM would freak but considering they are familiar with mining and oil and gas extraction they'll come around.

    4) Safety? Well, compared to Portal Trail...

    5) Financing? Not much different than the way we paid for and built the 4 mile Demo Flow Trail in the Santa Cruz Mountains. ($250k) I also over-heard a year or two ago what DMTBA had in their treasury. (More than enough.) Of course additional fund raising should be used. There are a variety of ways to raise money for this project.

    6) Move to St. George or nearby? Well, some study released today said that St. George is the 2nd best small city in America for starting a biz. I'll stay in Silicon Valley for now but we are aware of housing prices in red rock country.

    This project is very feasible. Almost a no-brainer.
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  4. #4
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    Well considering gooseberry Mesa is my back yard and has been since 2006...i have to disagree with you on the build difficulty. Its doable using the "mondo zag" however to build anywhere else would require extensive blasting and about 300k. That's a lot of money, we'd rather do a lot of other things first like the flow trail west of Santa Clara.

    Oh..m and the BLM would love to build that trail. We've all talked about it for several years it's just not a priority due to the complexity and expense.

    Regarding #5....That's odd... as my wife was a founding member and the treasurer until a year ago of DMBTA and her figures differ substantially from yours. Sounds like you might have overheard the BLMs budget for trails for Washington county.
    Last edited by STT GUY; 04-20-2018 at 04:52 AM.

  5. #5
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    April Fools!

    As a geologist a tunnel through the soft mudstones of the Moenkopi Formation doesn't seem that feasible. Leave the mesa alone. It's had enough impact already don't you think?

  6. #6
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    When we rode Gooseberry, we did the south rim, north, then continued onto Gander and had our friends pick us up near the bottom of Gander.

    We really liked Gander -- it reminded us of UPS/LPS: not too steep a descent, great views, a nice mix of flow and tech. If you could stretch that ride experience out all the way to the bottom of the mesa and then connect to JEM for a ride back into Hurricane, that would be an amazing ride. I don't know if that would be even remotely possible due to the spurs branching off the mesa, land ownership issues, etc. I'm just dreaming.

    I hope to spend some more time in the area when I retire, and help out with trail building efforts. You really have a gem of a location.
    Mountain bikers are generally a rational bunch...until someone moves a rock on our favorite trail and we lose our minds - LMN

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    April Fools!

    As a geologist a tunnel through the soft mudstones of the Moenkopi Formation doesn't seem that feasible. Leave the mesa alone. It's had enough impact already don't you think?
    The issue with mudstone is it flaking off the roof and hitting trail users. There are several ways to fix that. No new solutions needed, just a few more dollars.

    Have you ever worked with construction contractors or miners who get things done? Those who haven't see things as not possible that are possible.

    No, I don't think the mesa has had "enough" impact. As a geologist you understand that man has impacted less than 1% of the surface area of Gooseberry Mesa. That is immaterial to the mesa. The whole mesa will "melt" into Nevada someday anyway. I don't see how a trail down a cliff could have a material impact. It just doesn't matter.

    I can see an argument by folks in Virgin who have living rooms facing the mesa and may see the tunnel in the distance. They could argue aesthetics. It is a weak argument considering that RV's and the quarry stand out much more.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmpreston View Post
    The issue with mudstone is it flaking off the roof and hitting trail users. There are several ways to fix that. No new solutions needed, just a few more dollars.

    Have you ever worked with construction contractors or miners who get things done? Those who haven't see things as not possible that are possible.

    No, I don't think the mesa has had "enough" impact. As a geologist you understand that man has impacted less than 1% of the surface area of Gooseberry Mesa. That is immaterial to the mesa. The whole mesa will "melt" into Nevada someday anyway. I don't see how a trail down a cliff could have a material impact. It just doesn't matter.

    I can see an argument by folks in Virgin who have living rooms facing the mesa and may see the tunnel in the distance. They could argue aesthetics. It is a weak argument considering that RV's and the quarry stand out much more.
    It's not the idea of a trail I object to it's the tunnel. And no, I'm not a mining engineer but I did do my MS on the Chinle Formation in the Moab area so I know a little bit about the Shinarump and Moenkopi below it. It's amazing what the uranium miners accomplished and where they bulldozed in their roads. There's already two trails that drop off the mesas in Flying Monkey and Grafton so if there's a will there's a way.

    As far as the human footprint I disagree. Not sure how you arrive at 1% but the dispersed camping is a shit show on Gooseberry. Anyhow, they've got it going on in SW Utah. Amazing place wit a strong advocacy organization in place doing great things. It's good to have a dream and push big ideas as long as they are within reason.

  9. #9
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    There is already one trail off Windmill down to the Rampage site and a potential one off Secret Trail. Both would involve adding about 5 - 6 miles of rather boring trail to get to Goosebumps or the top of JEM. No private land in the way.

    A tunnel with one side open would be a much more exciting option. The open side could leave a 3' wall so users don't have a Portal Trail experience.

    There appears to be a way off the edge of the Goose on North Rim Trail so the top cliff probably won't be a problem. There is a cliff section near the bottom of the mesa that has no breaks until you get close to the Rampage site (per a well known local, not my opinion).

    Another option would be a suspension foot bridge or stairs. Probably cheaper. I'm very unsure about how it would hold in mudstone.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    As far as the human footprint I disagree. Not sure how you arrive at 1% but the dispersed camping is a shit show on Gooseberry.
    *puts curmudgeon hat on*

    Agree with Rockman here. Not sure the area really needs something that is going to draw shuttle crowds and related "improvements" - it is already busy enough. Build it and they will come...yeah it will draw a lot of traffic. Not necessarily because the route would rival TWE in elevation or whatever, but because we all know it will get hyped to death. In no time there will be shuttle companies with numerous daily drops bringing more riders and a ton more traffic on the road in. Right now the trails on the mesa tend to disperse traffic fairly well and can all be ridden both directions. Imagine trying to do your ride and coming against traffic from multiple shuttle vans that all dropping riders at once like at TWE. Of course the majority of riders would take the "shuttle friendly" route - too bad for you if you are trying to ride the other way on one of those trails. Shuttle companies would want to pave the road in so the shuttles wouldn't be disrupted as often by rain. The camping areas up there are already getting too busy in peak season. Imagine how much worse it will be when they pave the Gooseberry road. I heard Crybaby Hill is already slated to be paved. Now imagine the mesa also becoming a camping destination for every moron in a prius visiting Zion. At least when Goose is a bit separate from the other trail networks, like it is now, people tend to ride each one on different days which helps spread people out. I think making a big route will turn the place into a circus. Much as I'd like to be able to ride that route, no thanks....

  11. #11
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    Great points about the shuttle fiasco that would follow...
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  12. #12
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    Gooseberry Mesa is slated for banning "free for all" camping and going to "designated" sites only. Give it a year. The same thing is being implemented tis summer around the JEM system.

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    Good grief why would you shuttle? its 1500 vert from town...That would be the worst/longest shuttle in the world for such little vert...and the TWE comparison is just dumb, not even in the same ballpark.

    If anything the best spot for an up trail would be over by Grafton Mesa.

    I heard theres already an "epic" trail being proposed towards the StG area, forgot which mountain they said.

    FWIW I consider StG, Hurricane, Virgin basically as the same destination.

  14. #14
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    Actually we could come down the "mondo zag" for a bit and then bench west "behind" rampage ands work our way around to the goosebumps northern trailhead. Wouldn't be so much of an "epic" down hill trail as it would be an epic ride from the crypto/dead ringer trailhead up to goose and then back.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmar123 View Post

    I heard theres already an "epic" trail being proposed towards the StG area, forgot which mountain they said.
    West Mountain Peak, on the west side of highway 91: DOWNHILL FLOW TRAIL COMING TO SAINT GEORGE AREA. | Dixie Mountain Bike Trails Association.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rippling over canyons View Post
    ah yes sounds familiar...for a big climb/descent that looks good about 3k vert ...Jarvis Peak also looks good.

    Rad the West Mountain Peak trail is going in, is it too late to submit suggestions for the trail? I cringe a little when I hear "machine cut flow"....hopefully it will have some features and techy steep stuff.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    Great points about the shuttle fiasco that would follow...
    +1 to what evdog and k2rider1964 said.

    TWE shuttle scene is the last thing you want to replicate.

  18. #18
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    I've been advocating for years now to have cliff-side stripper poles installed on the mesa for hot descents to the bottom. Well-lubed poles are economical and can last a lifetime.

  19. #19
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    Not sure how I missed this but I have been avoiding this forum recently.

    It easy to look at a given area and arbitrarily say "hey, someone else should build a trail right here".

    It's good to see that you somewhat understand the effort that would go into building it but your numbers are way off. The money isn't there. It would take waaaay more than a month. Depending on where it comes off the Mesa, there IS private property to pass through. Especially the most logical route down from Secret or a similar area.

    We are currently working to get a new access trail built off of the Mesa to a new and improved trail head in Apple Valley. I see that as definitely happening, it is just taking time and it isn't a high priority. Even if the trail came off the Mesa as planned, it would have a lot of private property to go through in order to get to the 59 JEM trailhead. This is the most feasible route. I agree that it would be epic.

    If you can't tell, I absolutely LOVE when people send notices, letters, rants or "suggestions" to the DMBTA about what they think should be built. (Sarcasm).



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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Not sure how I missed this but I have been avoiding this forum recently.

    It easy to look at a given area and arbitrarily say "hey, someone else should build a trail right here".

    It's good to see that you somewhat understand the effort that would go into building it but your numbers are way off. The money isn't there. It would take waaaay more than a month. Depending on where it comes off the Mesa, there IS private property to pass through. Especially the most logical route down from Secret or a similar area.

    We are currently working to get a new access trail built off of the Mesa to a new and improved trail head in Apple Valley. I see that as definitely happening, it is just taking time and it isn't a high priority. Even if the trail came off the Mesa as planned, it would have a lot of private property to go through in order to get to the 59 JEM trailhead. This is the most feasible route. I agree that it would be epic.

    If you can't tell, I absolutely LOVE when people send notices, letters, rants or "suggestions" to the DMBTA about what they think should be built. (Sarcasm).



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    Replying from St George.

    1) My post is a follow-up of discussions with MTB locals. Throwing another idea in the mix.

    2) Please state if you ever accomplished anything significant in life like built a company that moves dirt. If not then your opinion is worthless. My opinion is based on 40+ years of trail building plus moving dirt for a living. Iím no coward. Hope youíve enjoyed the trails Iíve contributed time and money to. I never resented suggestions.

    3) I was in a discussion a couple of years ago with locals who had $250k in their trail building treasury. Sorry if that wasnít DMBTA. I assumed it was. By the way, if you do something epic you can raise money.

    4) No private land where I suggest unless the maps are wrong.

    5) I would love to contribute money to DMBTA but as an American since the Mayflower I hate the name Dixie, and you know how that shitty name got here.

    Time to head out to Moab 😉
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmpreston View Post
    5) Yes, I'm confident enough in my testing that Rockshox sucks for gnar.
    You lost all cred with me as a Pro Reviewer or whatever you are when you posted this tidbit in this forum.

    How ironic that a dude who is a reviewer of components and trail critique and has built 40 years worth of trails (remind us where again?) is pompously lecturing someone who is obviously involved in advocacy to plan and build the very trails you are riding (and doing your testing on). And yet, rather than show up for a trail day or make a donation you insert your pompous reply and make sure that we understand just how much you've given back to the sport. Good idea, go to Moab. Trail Mix needs the help.

  22. #22
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    Bye Felicia

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    You lost all cred with me as a Pro Reviewer or whatever you are when you posted this tidbit in this forum.

    How ironic that a dude who is a reviewer of components and trail critique and has built 40 years worth of trails (remind us where again?) is pompously lecturing someone who is obviously involved in advocacy to plan and build the very trails you are riding (and doing your testing on). And yet, rather than show up for a trail day or make a donation you insert your pompous reply and make sure that we understand just how much you've given back to the sport. Good idea, go to Moab. Trail Mix needs the help.
    Gnar? He doesn't ride gnar. He promotes "intermediate" riding and based on some of the areas he walks instead of rides, I question his "intermediate" skills.

    I called him out on his nonsense Rockshox vs Fox comments in the past. Since that time, I've bought a new Tracer and outfitted it with a **top of the line** 2018 Fox 36 RC2. Absolutely the 2nd worst fork I've ever owned out of the box. The worst was also a 2014 Fox that I had on a Tallboy LTc. I've since taken the Fox in for service and hope to try it out next week. If it's not any better, I'll dump it and look elsewhere.
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  24. #24
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    You were discussing money with me..... I specifically was referring to the BLM trail budget. I wish we got all of that but we share with other user group's. We do get a lot of love from our local BLM and we appreciate what they do with and for us.

    We prefer to build trails which complement our landscape if at all possible... just because we CAN move massive amounts of dirt, blast rock and scar the land for fun doesn't mean we SHOULD.

  25. #25
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    1) Please state if you ever accomplished anything significant in life like built a gentleman's establishment from the ground up. If not then your opinion is worthless. My opinion is based on 40+ years of stripping plus polishing stripper poles with my taint for a living. Iím no coward. Hope youíve enjoyed the poles Iíve contributed time and money to. I never resented suggestions.

  26. #26
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    And I used to use $2 bills...in the low light they look like $20's and the girls come right over.

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