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  1. #1
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    Distancing from eBikes to maintain local access

    Hey all, haven't posted for a bit in the Utah section, but I am looking to get some local support to clarify implementation of State Bill 121 that passed over the summer. I believe the intention of the bill is great for urban use. Unfortunately local ebike shops either knowingly or mistakenly are informing users of their products that the the bill is a state blessing to ride pedal assist bikes on National Forest, National Park, and BLM trails. With some local trail runner groups, and hopefully support from users here, I'd like to petition the responsible government entities to at least get some signage up in the spring and go from there. After the latest meeting, it's pretty obvious that the IMBA are just industry stooges. It's gonna take some local effort to keep non-motorized trails non-motorized. Please reply to the thread with any interest. Here is the bill just for reference:
    SB0121

  2. #2
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    The ebike debate I believe will keep raging on forever. I don't see the ebike trend ending anytime soon and in my humble opinion I believe there can be some middle ground that can satisfy all parties and sides on the issue.

    The manufacturer can govern these bikes to where they can not go faster than a human pedaled bike on full electric assist - really what is the difference between a regular pedal powered mountain bike going 15mph and an e-bike going 15mph? None. The largest two concerns with e-bikes are 1) speed and 2) acceleration capacity - Speed primarily as it is a concern for the safety of all the trail users on the trail (hikers, horses, other riders) and Acceleration capacity for potential trail damage by "burning out" by hitting the "gas" very hard sort of speak. Both should be governed by the manufacturer to prevent the bike from going faster that 12mph on full assist and limiting torque so it can't "burn out" by slamming the pedal (sort of speak).

    The sellers should be educated on the local laws and try to work and pressure the manufacturers to govern these bikes to make them no more dangerous to other users or harmful to the trails than regular mountain bikes.

    The users need to educate themselves on trail etiquette and ensure they are riding safely and with common sense and that is where it boils down to in the end - you have to have common sense when you are on a trail with other users - you don't need to rip a trail at 40 mph with a lot of blind corners where a hiker or other user can pop out of nowhere.

    I can see both sides of the e-bike coin and both sides do have valid arguments but in the end it still comes down to common sense by the rider - I have seen stories of regular mountain bikers with no common sense getting into issues on the trail with other users (hikers, horses, and other riders) so the argument that only e-bikes will create safety problems cannot be fully made because in the end - like I said, comes down to the rider and how they are using their equipment.

    I don't see e-bikes going away anytime soon but I believe the middle ground can be made to make them safer so they don't have any extra capability than pedal powered bikes would have. Some folks think people who ride e-bikes are lazy fat slobs and some of it could be true - however some folks could have knee, ankle, or other joint problems that inhibit their ability to pedal comfortably and the e-bike can give them years more enjoyment of the trail. It is easy to whine about e-bikes if you are perfectly healthy but what about when you become arthritic later on in life and have to hang up the bike and wish you could enjoy riding? Well - the e-bike is your extension on riding in that case.

    I am not officially taking a side on this debate but do have the open mind enough to see the pro's and con's of each side - both sides have valid points,

    Just my two cents.
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  3. #3
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    Peopleforbikes, the industry group responsible for introducing the Utah legislation states in their model version that mtb trails are to be omitted. They claim that they intend the legislation to only cover bike paths and bike trails, not natural surface single track trails. So, you could try that angle.

    Section 207 path use by class 1 and 2 electric bicycles:
    A class 1 electric bicycle or a class 2 electric bicycle may be used in all places wherebicycles are permitted to travel, including, but not limited to bicycle and multi-use pathsand trails [use appropriate state specific language to describe paved bike infrastructure;omit trails where they can be interpreted as trails open to mountain bikers]. However,
    the municipality, local authority or governing body of a public agency having jurisdictionover a path or trail may prohibit, by ordinance, the operation of a class 1 electric bicycleor class 2 electric bicycle on that bicycle path or trail.
    http://www.peopleforbikes.org/page/-...egislation.pdf

    USFS and BLM consider them motorized vehicles and as such they are only allowed on motorized trails under their jurisdiction.

    Pm me if you want help putting something together for your local representatives.

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    I'm not looking for any law changes, as I can't imagine a state rep would be interested in adding a single line to the bill that just passed in May. But if you think it's a real possibilty I would be all on board to help in any way possible. I am concerned with ebike retailers specifically telling buyers that the state law allows their products use on non-motorized trails. I am just hoping to get some people together that can as a group petition the NFS/NPS/BLM for signage. That really is all that I think needs to be done. And maybe a little enforcement from time to time.

    I can see both sides of the argument. I hope to see e-bike specific trails to be eventually constructed. But the federal agencies that have already ruled for existing non-motorized trails, specifically addressing low power pedal assist bikes. They state valid reasons for why they have made the decision that they have. Getting older means losing access to many things enjoyed earlier in life. I will be fine with that. As stated in the press release, ebikes are not a means of handicap transportation. Sellers will sell whatever the market wants, and that apparently is high power, faster, big travel bikes. Also, I am sure that the expectation that rangers could easily differentiate between the vast numbers models that vary in power output and delivery played into their decision as well, not to mention the ease of modifying ebikes. Such an expectation would lend to state or federal licensing of ebikes as a regulatory check. A common effort with other non-motorized trail users will build ties with non-biking groups as well. The "they are here to stay" point of view in my opinion is going to eventually lead to trail closures.

  5. #5
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    I played a noob shopper at an ebike store earlier this year. The owner of the shop straight up told me to ride wherever I wanted because no one would ever stop me. He also showed me an "ebike" capable of well over 60mph.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

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    I've had a nearly identical experience. I hope we can get some local effort going in the off season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    I played a noob shopper at an ebike store earlier this year. The owner of the shop straight up told me to ride wherever I wanted because no one would ever stop me. He also showed me an "ebike" capable of well over 60mph.
    I would consider that very irresponsible from the store owner as an ebike going 60mph is really no different than allowing a motorbike on the trail - and it doesn't help educate users either - already have enough clueless riders on the trail without adding any more.

    If manufacturers/sellers do not work together to make e-bikes comparable with human powered bikes to ensure the trails are safe for all then I would definitely be on board and say no ebikes on hiking/horse/mtb trails - they can ride on ATV and other motorized trails.
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    Unfortunately I don't think it's going to change. The world has seen this before, it's how we got motorcycles. Bike manufacturers began adding engines and they all started trying to one up each other. Think about it, if you need to keep selling ebikes every year, what do you need to do to keep pulling in customers? You need more power and more efficiency. Faster and farther. That, and consumers are ALWAYS going to find a way to modify them. Governed from the manufacturer or not, people will find a way to change them. Trails and advocates can try to regulate them all they want. Limit ebikes to 250 watts on trails? Fine, who is going to sit at the trail head and enforce that? No one is going to have the money to pay someone to do that and no one has the time. It is just easier to do a blanket ban.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

  9. #9
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    I hope everyone has had time to read this. Great points on expansion of acccess and how ebikes will directly impact that.

    https://www.bikerumor.com/2015/12/08...-philip-keyes/

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Unfortunately I don't think it's going to change. The world has seen this before, it's how we got motorcycles. Bike manufacturers began adding engines and they all started trying to one up each other. Think about it, if you need to keep selling ebikes every year, what do you need to do to keep pulling in customers? You need more power and more efficiency. Faster and farther. That, and consumers are ALWAYS going to find a way to modify them. Governed from the manufacturer or not, people will find a way to change them. Trails and advocates can try to regulate them all they want. Limit ebikes to 250 watts on trails? Fine, who is going to sit at the trail head and enforce that? No one is going to have the money to pay someone to do that and no one has the time. It is just easier to do a blanket ban.
    You raise some good points Silentfoe. It's hard to even keep motorized traffic off of trails at times - the local trails we have here there are ATVs caught on them several times a year even with signage and all that.

    The blanket ban is an easier method and for most part does help minus a few offenders who just don't care about the rules.
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  11. #11
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    I'd even donate the money for the signage. AFAIK they are banned on soft-surface trails in all of Summit county, let's put up a few signs and head off problems while we can, eh?

    -Walt

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    ....because no one would ever stop me.
    This is true and to be honest, it's most likely not worth the confrontation nowadays. All (4) e-bikes I've seen riding on dirt have been on National Forest trails where they are illegal. However, nobody said anything to them.

    Like you said on another post, no "enforcement agency" has the money or manpower to place officers at various trailheads to enforce the wattage limit (if one was enacted). A blanket ban is literally the only reasonable option.
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    People in general have no backbone anymore and are afraid to say anything to anyone. Trust me when I say, I stop every person I see who I've ever encountered on an ebike. The conversation always starts simply and kindly, informing them of their wrong. If they escalate it, I'm very happy to oblige. I've had the local sheriff meet two different people in the parking lot.
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    You are correct about summit, and I hear that come quickly if called about violations. I'd be up for putting some money in for signage as well.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    People in general have no backbone anymore and are afraid to say anything to anyone. Trust me when I say, I stop every person I see who I've ever encountered on an ebike. The conversation always starts simply and kindly, informing them of their wrong. If they escalate it, I'm very happy to oblige. I've had the local sheriff meet two different people in the parking lot.
    After 31 years in law enforcement and seeing people murdered over a pack of cigarettes, shot over a parking space dispute and 100's upon 100's of fights over simpler conversations gone wrong, I choose my battles wisely...especially after I'll be riding away from my unattended car for hours. *In general*, people are probably less confrontational about stuff like this in Utah than they are in SoCal as well. If we tried to call the local sheriff over this issue in SoCal, you can expect a 4-6 hour wait time for them to respond.
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    That thing you keep in your pocket during a ride that records your tracks, it has a piece of hardware called a camera. Use it. The FS and BLM will either visit the offending person, or mail them a ticket. I know a few motobikers that have received them. Don't remember their names but I probably still have their pictures from when they were poaching trails.

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  17. #17
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    Well, confrontation or not, the best way to keep things from getting to that point is just some simple signage. Many people are uninformed (or deliberately misinformed by shops) and think they are simply buying a more-faster/more-awesomer mountain bike, and that they can ride it just like any other mountain bike. A few signs would be very helpful, though of course (just like folks with motos/ATVs/lady who hikes up Dropout with her dog right past the skull and crossbones "no uphill traffic" sign...) there will be a few people who break the rules anyway. But there are a lot who will see the sign and turn around (hopefully to go give the shop that sold them the bike a piece of their mind).

    I've dropped Basin Rec/Mountain Trails a few notes inquiring about this policy and signage but not gotten a response. Maybe I will try again in the spring. I bet dollars to donuts there are a bunch of e-fatbikes out in Round Valley this winter. If you think skiers hate us now...

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  18. #18
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    Agreed, signs take away any excuse. I'll help spring for signs.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

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    I'll be tracking down who for each of the individual agencies have responsibilty for singage and post some info on how we can best go about it. Spread the word.
    Last edited by gdnorm; 11-27-2016 at 08:50 PM.

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    This is a tempest in a teapot. Other trail users won't care. The bikes are quiet, don't damage the trails, especially compared to horses, and can't do excessive speed. The only people who care are some MTBers because the pedal assist riders aren't "earning their turns" or some sort of crap dogma.

    According to the BLM Moab the CFR's don't allow motorized vehicles on most of those trails. (Code of Federal Regulations) They gave me the CFR cite, it is somewhere in my vast notes, but they have it on their site. However, anyone with a disability (ADA) can ride the non-motorized trails and there is nothing that rangers can do as long as safety isn't an issue, and with pedal assist it isn't.

    BLM has one ranger for the vast Moab area. I've never seen one and I spend 2 months a year riding mostly Moab but a couple of weeks of Fruita, CO and Hurricane / St. George.

    There are so many issues of importance in this world, why this?
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  21. #21
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    Nonsense. This opens the door to much faster and more powerful bikes. Current stuff is probably not a problem but the industry refused to adopt the EU 250W/15mph limits, so you'll see 750W (!) and 20mph limited (assuming the rider doesn't modify) bikes soon.

    For the disabled and elderly, I have zero problem here. But that's not who will be riding them if you throw the doors open to anyone going forward.

    There are undoubtedly lots of important causes to be concerned about, but this is the Utah page of a mountain bike forum. It's clearly something relevant enough to discuss.

    -Walt

  22. #22
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    Throwing out the first world problem red herring? We live in the first world so we deal with it. As a trail builder and BLM employee, I deal with this all of the time. Oh, and no, disabled people cannot just hop on an ebike and ride it wherever they want. You can't hang a handicap placard from your handlebar and ride a non-motorized trail. Sorry.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmpreston View Post
    This is a tempest in a teapot. Other trail users won't care. The bikes are quiet, don't damage the trails, especially compared to horses, and can't do excessive speed. The only people who care are some MTBers because the pedal assist riders aren't "earning their turns" or some sort of crap dogma.

    According to the BLM Moab the CFR's don't allow motorized vehicles on most of those trails. (Code of Federal Regulations) They gave me the CFR cite, it is somewhere in my vast notes, but they have it on their site. However, anyone with a disability (ADA) can ride the non-motorized trails and there is nothing that rangers can do as long as safety isn't an issue, and with pedal assist it isn't.

    BLM has one ranger for the vast Moab area. I've never seen one and I spend 2 months a year riding mostly Moab but a couple of weeks of Fruita, CO and Hurricane / St. George.

    There are so many issues of importance in this world, why this?

    Not true. You can't ride the trails with any type of motor period, otherwise they would have to let all the people use their ADA atv's on them too.
    Using the reasoning that it should be okay because the BLM doesn't have the manpower to enforce it in Moab is like saying any crime is okay if there's no cop around.
    Bikers have fought long and hard to get our low impact trails and it's bad enough in the Moab area to find dirt bikers using them. A lot of work goes into the development of one trail and for me, when I ride, I don't want to see electric bikes, drones and people talking on their cell phones while they ride.
    If this doesn't bother you then please. Advocate for them in Santa Cruz but don't push other communities to accept them simply because you do, and respect our laws when you visit here.

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    Moab would be the perfect place to allow low powered Ebike access since many of the trails there would not be seriously impacted anymore than by mountain bikes. Trails in Hurricane such as Gooseberry Mesa and Little Creek would hold up nicely. When I was in Park City this year I encountered several on the Mid Mountain trail. They were being ridden by older riders that had climbed up from Park City. They weren't tearing up the trail and seemed to be enjoying life like the mountain bike crowd I was riding with. I personally look forward to more Ebike trails in the future. I hope it will become more popular like what is going on in Europe. It would be nice to have my 64 year old wife to still be able to ride with her younger mountain bike friends.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Moab would be the perfect place to allow low powered Ebike access since many of the trails there would not be seriously impacted anymore than by mountain bikes. Trails in Hurricane such as Gooseberry Mesa and Little Creek would hold up nicely.
    Please define low powered. Now that you've done that, who gets to regulate it? Are you going to pay for it? Unfortunately it ends up being self regulated and we all know how that works. Blanket bans, once again, are easier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Please define low powered. Now that you've done that, who gets to regulate it? Are you going to pay for it? Unfortunately it ends up being self regulated and we all know how that works. Blanket bans, once again, are easier.
    Jeezus, do you even rear what you write? It is *exactly* the same verbiage used by SUWA/Sierra Clubbers wanting to ban MTBs from trails. Word for word.

    Pot. Kettle. Black. Have fun defending your MTB access after you f*&^k over eBikes with the exact same arguments.

  27. #27
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    Cute. Please post the text, word for word.

    Edit: I'll add, did I somehow make you think that I cared at all for the plight of the eMTB rider? I don't. The only reason I discuss it is because it directly threatens access for actual mtbs. I will help fight that tooth and nail. Until eMTB's become actual trail advocates and do real work in policing their own, I will not support them.
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    Look, I don't give a crap about e-bikes one way or the other. I just want to make damn sure they don't cause mountain bikes any access problems. Easiest way to do that is just not allow them on nonmotorized trails, unless you've got an ADA sticker - in which case I'm fine with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmpreston View Post
    This is a tempest in a teapot. Other trail users won't care. The bikes are quiet, don't damage the trails, especially compared to horses, and can't do excessive speed. The only people who care are some MTBers because the pedal assist riders aren't "earning their turns" or some sort of crap dogma.

    According to the BLM Moab the CFR's don't allow motorized vehicles on most of those trails. (Code of Federal Regulations) They gave me the CFR cite, it is somewhere in my vast notes, but they have it on their site. However, anyone with a disability (ADA) can ride the non-motorized trails and there is nothing that rangers can do as long as safety isn't an issue, and with pedal assist it isn't.

    BLM has one ranger for the vast Moab area. I've never seen one and I spend 2 months a year riding mostly Moab but a couple of weeks of Fruita, CO and Hurricane / St. George.

    There are so many issues of importance in this world, why this?
    You cannot ride an ebike as an ADA mode of transportation. This has been specifically addressed.

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    I came across two late 50's (?) Riders yesterday at the Cove Wash trailhead in Santa Clara. They were loading up two ebikes on the back of their car after riding. I casually asked them where they had been riding. They mentioned Barrel Roll. I stopped them and informed them that motorized vehicles were not allowed on that trail. They looked at me dumbfounded and said "these are motorized?" I wanted to scream. Yes, yes they are I told them. I let them know where they could ride and asked them to make sure they knew where they could and couldn't ride their motorized vehicles. They were not upset, just confused. I definitely hold them accountable but what really pisses me off is the shop that sold them their ebikes. A serious disservice is being done. I wish I knew exactly where they bought them.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

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    Quote Originally Posted by gdnorm View Post
    You cannot ride an ebike as an ADA mode of transportation. This has been specifically addressed.
    I've read the law and it is far more open to different means of transport for ADA than I would prefer. I've also discussed it a bit with BLM staff in Moab. Also, various local land managers in various places have had lawyers draft up their rules that comply with the law and ADA folks can ride pedal assist bikes, nothing bigger because of other user safety, which is the only constraint imposed by the ADA.

    If you happen to run into a different interpretation please post. I would love to see it!
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    Those trails would be a hoot on a pedal assist. The top of Zen not so much. Forget South Rim and especially Hidden Canyon. Maybe Guac.

    Please describe why you are upset? Riding too fast and safety concerns? Too noisy? Trail damage?
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    You've tried trolling before, it gets old. I'm upset because they're not allowed and they're motorized. End of story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    You've tried trolling before, it gets old. I'm upset because they're not allowed and they're motorized. End of story.
    Having a different opinion is not trolling by the way. I politely asked you your reasons. If you think that everyone has to think as you do then you are trolling. You are trying to shut down discussion by those who may not agree with you. I have very good reasons why I'm supportive of pedal assist bikes. I wanted to know yours. However, your stated reasons are rather narrow, something like "I'm offended."

    Thank you for responding anyway.
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  35. #35
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    No. You know you've asked me this same question before. You've asked other people the same question. I've written an answer as have others. You know the answer and yet you constantly ask the same question.

    Adding...read the rest of this thread.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Moab would be the perfect place to allow low powered Ebike access since many of the trails there would not be seriously impacted anymore than by mountain bikes. Trails in Hurricane such as Gooseberry Mesa and Little Creek would hold up nicely. When I was in Park City this year I encountered several on the Mid Mountain trail. They were being ridden by older riders that had climbed up from Park City. They weren't tearing up the trail and seemed to be enjoying life like the mountain bike crowd I was riding with. I personally look forward to more Ebike trails in the future. I hope it will become more popular like what is going on in Europe. It would be nice to have my 64 year old wife to still be able to ride with her younger mountain bike friends.
    Until they come around a corner at 20mph, at double or triple the closing speed of a normal human powered bike, run into another cyclist, and the cliff faces that are relatively common on these trails become the site of wrongful death investigation.
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    I'm a relatively quick XC racer. I'm also a veteran. I could very easily walk into the VA next week and get myself an ADA placard. It's not hard.

    Now, take my legs, add 750w, and 20lbs (9kg) to the bike.

    My bike weighs 23lbs (10.5kg), and I weigh under 150lbs (68kg) with all of my gear on. Let's say I'm on a 10min climb. I can do 350w+ for that length of time.

    350w + 750w = 1100w.
    9kg + 10.5kg + 68kg = 87.5kg

    Right now, my weight plus bike weight is 68kg + 10.5kg. 78.5kg. 350w/78.5kg = 4.45w/kg.

    E-bike watts per kilo: 1100w/87.5kg = 12.57.

    12.57/4.45 = 2.82.


    Generally speaking, there is a linear relationship between watts per kilogram and climbing velocity on a given slope. If you double power, you double your speed.

    So, if I'm doing 8mph up a climb under my own power, I'd be encountering aerodynamic drag as a serious consideration at 20mph+ (8 * 2.82 = 22.56mph) with an e-bike. I'd be hitting the limiter, if it still existed, on a 20mph limited e-bike. Going UP a hill.

    Think about that. Alternately, think about adding 14mph to the descending speed of every person coming down Zen or like trail. If you don't think there would be conflicts resulting from increasing closing speeds between two individuals, I can't help you.
    Death from Below.

  38. #38
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    Just to throw a few more numbers into your mix, peak wattage on most ebikes is usually about double that of that stated nominal, so a 250w ebike at max assist will add just north of 500w, and a 750w ebike, 1500w. A 750w ebike has @ 50% more torque, so if they are both limited, it wouldn't be faster, but it would be quicker to get up to speed.

    So, your 750w scenario could be 1850w/87.5kg = 21.14w/kg

  39. #39
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    I visited the e-bike shop near Chubasco's several months ago and asked where the bikes could go. They said ok on the paved paths; dirt wasn't as clear. I got the impression that they wouldn't discourage people from taking their e-bikes on soft trails. Now/asap would be a great time for MTF/BRec to define a policy and be ready to add signage, though their process might be complicated by substantial trail mileage on private land.

    Speaking of motorcycles, another article: History and Deception - Opinion by RichardCunningham - Pinkbike.

  40. #40
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    I last posted several months ago and was wondering how the campaign of banning Ebikes from FS and BLM lands was going? I recently ran into a Ebike rider on a popular trail I ride frequently. When I complemented him for riding responsibly on his Ebike he was floored. He was an older guy out having an enjoyable day of riding.

    A friend of mine who lives in Moab recently bought an Ebikes for he and his wife. They have lived in Moab for over 20 years. They are old farts like me and I hope they have many years of fun riding the local trails. They are responsible riders and I wish them the best.

    I would love to build some fun Ebike trails where I live and when I saw mountain bikers on them riding responsibly I would love to tell them to get the heck off the trail. This trail was built only for Ebikes and hikers. You always have to allow hikers on user created trails.

    Ebikes are also great for doing needed trail maintenance on screwed up trails. Rather than wait forever to get needed maintenance completed by an underfunded land manager you just whip out on your Ebike and fix the problem.

  41. #41
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    "No E Bike" signs have been installed on most of the Moab trail heads and all of them will be covered soon. As for trail maintenance, we do just fine pedaling in or fixing things while we ride. There are plenty of ATV trails/roads to ride ebikes on without intefering with bike trails.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAM313 View Post
    "No E Bike" signs have been installed on most of the Moab trail heads and all of them will be covered soon. As for trail maintenance, we do just fine pedaling in or fixing things while we ride. There are plenty of ATV trails/roads to ride ebikes on without intefering with bike trails.
    Good. Thanks for the information.

    I'd gladly contribute to the budget of my local USFS Ranger District to get signs made for our trails.
    Death from Below.

  43. #43
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    Out riding the JEM Trail System near Hurricane (BLM Land) several days ago, had an E-Bike with a super fit spandex clad dude (40 years my junior) mashing the pedals ride by me while I sat on a stone bench along the RIM Trail catching my breath, rubbing my sore knees, checking my heart rate and praying for a way to be able to enjoy this great experience over then next 20 years as I slowly make my way to the Retirement Home. I saw that bike and said to myself....."Self, there is your ticket to exercise, sanity, freedom and maybe another year or two of playing with your grandbabies." I do hope there is a way for all sides to come together on this issue and allow E-Bikes on the trails alongside pedal bikes before I become a Felony E-Biker. My kids may not allow my grandbabies come see me in prison.

  44. #44
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    The easy way to do it would be to just use the EU limits (250W, ~15mph limited) but nobody wants that, apparently. Plenty of speed/power to keep anyone with the balance to ride a mountain bike out there indefinitely, and no real threat to anything else.

    Instead we have the ludicrous 750W/20mph thing that is used on street e-bikes applied to mountain bikes. As others have pointed out, 750W of assist means you can go 20mph up any hill you want if you care to try. 40mph closing speeds on singletrack sounds great...

    -Walt

  45. #45
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    This last response reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhm7-LEBznk

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    WB, how so? Were you referring to my post? Or another one?

    -Walt

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    The easy way to do it would be to just use the EU limits (250W, ~15mph limited) but nobody wants that, apparently. Plenty of speed/power to keep anyone with the balance to ride a mountain bike out there indefinitely, and no real threat to anything else.

    Instead we have the ludicrous 750W/20mph thing that is used on street e-bikes applied to mountain bikes. As others have pointed out, 750W of assist means you can go 20mph up any hill you want if you care to try. 40mph closing speeds on singletrack sounds great...

    -Walt
    I'm with you on that! I just checked the Specialized Evo, not called Turbo Evo, and it is 530W. It is fun to ride but a speed hazard on uphill sections. If a pedal assist bike as a benign impact then fine, but some are too fast for multi-user trails. They also have to be easy to test for compliance.
    MTB blog for US West trails: http://jimprestonmtb.com. Trail analysis videos, bike and component reviews, other stuff.

  48. #48
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    The math and physics may be correct in some of the above posts, but in the real world, getting 750 or even 250w to provide SUSTAINED 20 mph uphill speeds on a 50 lb bike, will suck down the battery real fast. So in actuality uphill ebike riders will go only slightly faster than unassisted riders ... or, alternatively, they will create a different hazard by getting stuck out on the trail with a dead battery and a 50 lb bike. In any case, closing speeds may be only slightly more dangerous with e bikes, since realistically, most ebike riders will be no faster downhill than pure pedal bikes; in fact possibly slower due to extra weight affecting brakes and cornering. However, if local jurisdictions prohibit ebikes on mtb trails, trailheads should be signed and dealers should inform buyers. As a Californian, it seems that Utah has plenty of accessible legal motorized OHV trails to keep everyone happy.

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