Crest Trail Courtesy- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Crest Trail Courtesy

    Wasatch Crest, three riders, last night:

    Thank you for yielding to us uphill riders. It showed great courtesy and we do appreciate it. Just one suggestion - please don't ride three feet off the trail when you do this. Simply stop, step to the very side of the trail, and lean your bike over a bit to allow other riders to clear. The landscape suffers from off-trail riding.

    Again - in all sincerity - thanks for the courtesy. A slight modification of your technique will show courtesy to the land as well.

  2. #2

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    Jesus Christ monkey balls! It's not enough that they pulled over for you, do you want them to lick your sphincter too? Holy hell!

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    keep single track single.....

  4. #4
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    Hmm...

    Was this really necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by JosephSmith
    Jesus Christ monkey balls! It's not enough that they pulled over for you, do you want them to lick your sphincter too? Holy hell!
    Sworn to avenge, condemned to hell

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    Was this thread necessary? Really?

    The only thing more annoying than people riding up the crest are those that ride up the crest and then complain about the trail "manners" of those coming down. What did you expect really?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JosephSmith
    Was this thread necessary? Really?

    The only thing more annoying than people riding up the crest are those that ride up the crest and then complain about the trail "manners" of those coming down. What did you expect really?
    Your first post succinctly sums up the ultimate ignorance of modern man, and in your second post conceit and arrogance in one tidy little package. I'm fascinated to see what comes next.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelbak73
    Your first post succinctly sums up the ultimate ignorance of modern man, and in your second post conceit and arrogance in one tidy little package. I'm fascinated to see what comes next.

    Pot meet kettle.

  8. #8
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    Yes, it was!

    [quote=JosephSmith]Was this thread necessary? Really?

    The OP's post was educational. It attempted to impart encouragement and additional knowledge to some riders, and was therefore useful and necessary. I encountered exactly the same situation this morning, and I was in the position of the downhill rider. I was able to apply the lesson taught by the OP to help keep my local trail in good condition, while being polite to other riders. Your vile, deeply offensive response, on the other hand, served no useful purpose, imparted no knowledge and was therefore completely useless, ergo my original question...was your response necessary?
    Sworn to avenge, condemned to hell

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    you guys are being a bit extreme, a few riders that ride off the trail for a few yards isnt gonna damage the trail, what about all the animals that walk down the trail and than walk off the sides or lay on the sides, all the melt off of the snow that filters down and then off the trail. I understand the downhill riders not wanting to stop, and yielding off the trail to not obstruct the uphill rider, when your going down you adrenaline is going and your having alot of fun and dont wanna stop. You expressed your opinion, and some people may object, its your opinion people are gonna do whatever they want. Just please dont ride uphill at lift served mountain biking areas, i.e. deer valley, sundance, wolf mountain, you will most likely get ran over or crashed into.

  10. #10
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    You completely missed the point..

    It's all about preventing the damage that you can control. Just because snow melts or animals walk doesn't excuse us doing additional damage. If a rider can limit his damage, then he should. That's how trails stay in good condition and open. Your comments unfortunately exhibit the attitude that is getting more trails and resorts closed instead of opened. Be cool, be polite, and be aware of the trail, and we'll all be able to ride for years to come. Refuse to stop for other users or respect the trail because you're "having fun", and sooner or later we'll all lose access to those areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbonate
    you guys are being a bit extreme, a few riders that ride off the trail for a few yards isnt gonna damage the trail, what about all the animals that walk down the trail and than walk off the sides or lay on the sides, all the melt off of the snow that filters down and then off the trail. I understand the downhill riders not wanting to stop, and yielding off the trail to not obstruct the uphill rider, when your going down you adrenaline is going and your having alot of fun and dont wanna stop. You expressed your opinion, and some people may object, its your opinion people are gonna do whatever they want. Just please dont ride uphill at lift served mountain biking areas, i.e. deer valley, sundance, wolf mountain, you will most likely get ran over or crashed into.
    Sworn to avenge, condemned to hell

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    If I could just do whatever I want

    There would be no such thing as lift served mountain biking. I think it just lets people be lazy and fat, and they would be better off if they would get some exercise. Also road from puke hill to guardmans pass would not exist and you could either ride up the crest from millcreek, for ride up from the base of one of the park city ski resorts. The wussy shuttle way would not exist. This way there would not be as many people on the crest, and all of the people there would be serious cyclists who are not afraid to climb for a couple hours. Between the reduction in people, and the elimination of novices the trail courtsey problems would not exist.
    I don't get it my way and have to deal with the fact that everyone has a right to use the trail, and we need to learn to play nice together. If you run over someone on a lift served mountain bike trail you will be liable for thier injuries and possible punitive damages. The uphill rider has the right of way, and its your responsibility to keep yourself under control. Yes it sucks to have to pull over in the middle of a downhill, but we need to learn to share.
    I agree that Kgg's post came off as a little nit-picky. I find that most places on the crest are wide enough for both riders to pass, if the downhill rider just slows down and stays to the side. The Rules say yield not stop. Now if you are riding off the trail and crushing plants you could have stopped and put a foot down rather then ride off trail.
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  12. #12
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    Just trying to save the landscape

    It doesn't take any imagination to see the damage that has been done by offtrail riding. This was the first time I've been up there in two years. In the South to North direction, about half a mile after the "No Dogs" sign, the trail has been enlarged and degraded by people going too fast and going off the trail when they don't make the turn. Also, at the top of the climb about a mile or so before the Desolation Lake overlook, it's turned into a bit of a big dust bowl - much larger than it used to be.

    Most of the trail is in good shape, but there are signs of potential trouble. I don't think it's nitpicky to ask people to stay on the trail, it's just a measure of respect for the land and for other users that ought to be part of normal outdoors etiquette. I was merely trying to impart that in a non-hostile manner. I would also disagree that there is room for passing on most parts of the trail. You don't know the skill level of the other rider and it's always best to give them most of the single track, rather than both trying to squeeze by and potentially going off trail, or forcing the other rider off trail.

    In the originall post I tried to convey that I truly apppreciated the other riders' courtesy. Since they clearly showed respect for other riders, they seemed like the sort of folks who would be open to the idea of respecting the land also.
    Last edited by kgginslc; 07-30-2008 at 02:58 PM.

  13. #13
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    I was thinking of the OP yesterday while riding John's 99 trail with grass and plants up to my shoulders and no hope of even seeing the trail I was riding. Today when I read the 2nd post I fully appreciated it.

    I'm not so worried about the occasional off trail excursion, but WTF with all the Crest traffic? I rode it two days ago, first time this season and was amazed. There were bikes everywhere, and mostly newbs. How do they all get up there? I ride from PC, so I'm not familiar with the access from the West.

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    I understand the point you guys are trying to make, I guess I am just looking at it from another perspective. Stuff happens, basically people do as they please, your never gonna change that, I dont want the trails to get destroyed, infact I wish more trails were created. There are other problems along the trail that are worst then people yeilding off trail, brake bumps are horrible and once they start theyre is no easy way to get rid of them, horse poop on the trail, thank you to all the equestrians out there, put a bucket on the back of your horse, they wear em in the city, downhill joggers that have the right of way, nothing more pisses me off then some jogger downhill that run straight at you and forces you to stop or go off trail to avoid them. Anyway I guess im saying we all have our complaints and we can sit here and rant and rave about them, but in the end people are still gonna do what they wanna do. Im glad that some of you feel lift served riding is for the lazy and fat, for me I have the most fun on the descent, weather its riding from my door up spiro to shadow lake and then down or getting on the bus and then the lift at deer valley and going down. There is not much excitement about pedaling up for me, sorry. Happy trails, please stay on them.

  15. #15
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    Good point turbonate,
    People are going to do what they want. let's just hope that through threads like this the'll gain some understanding and want to do the right thing...

  16. #16
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    Hello,

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    On the day in question, I was one of three riders that rode the crest trail and indeed myself and some in my party yielded for some uphill dudes, more than once. I do not know if my party is the one that this blog refers to, however, when we yield to uphill riders we pull off the trail if there is no other place to yield to. You do what you have to do. Also, when I am taking a break and may be having lunch, I chill off of the trail so that I do not get my arse ran over. Common sense. And I think that nature will be ok if I sit on a downed tree on the edge of the trail. Just be glad that I am trampling some grass and a few flowers rather than you running into me on the trail and ending up in the hospital and a bike repair bill of several hundred dollars.

    I agree that we need to take care of the trails and to limit the damage to the trail system. However, I do not see Crest as exactly pristine. Half of the mountain is ripped to hell by utility companies and the ski resort that maintains their lifts that terminate at the Crest, not to mention all of the freaks with their dogs on the trail.

    Also, please note that this debate has been going on regarding Millcreek Canyon at least since I was in college back in 1991. Everyone was sounding the alarm back then. So chill out and by the way do not thank people on this forumn for a common courtesy . . . its a bit cheezy.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbonate
    you guys are being a bit extreme, a few riders that ride off the trail for a few yards isnt gonna damage the trail,

    That's the mentality I use when my wife, kids, and I are on a road trip. When our mini-van is full of empty McDonald's Happy Meal boxes, drink cups, etc., we just roll down the windows and toss it all out on the highway. If only a few vehicles do it, it isn't going to cause any real eye-sore to the landscape.

    Just sayin'.



    When I yield to uphill riders, I stop and I might, depending on the situation and/or immediate surrounding terrain, lift my bike off the trail and set it down a foot or two off the trail. When the uphill rider passes by, I lift the bike back onto the trail and keep on truckin'. I do not ride off the trail to create the one or two foot clearance.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalfaraway
    There would be no such thing as lift served mountain biking. I think it just lets people be lazy and fat, and they would be better off if they would get some exercise.
    I invite you to join me for 10 laps down Theives Forrest and Fire Swamp at Deer Valley on a 45 lb DH bike. If you still feel fresh and want to do an XC ride afterwards I'll join you, that is if you haven't wadded yourself into a tree or some other object after 2-3 laps because your arms are so pumped and you're gasping for air 2 minutes into the run and you make a mistake.

    That is the most ignorant statement I've seen in along time. Get over yourself. You can do long XC rides one day AND spend another day riding chairs on big bikes. Why limit yourself to one form of biking?

    On-topic, my riding partners and I always yeild to uphill traffic (and downhill hikers, etc..) on the Crest and every other trail for that matter. Know the rules and obey them.

    B
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

  20. #20
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    Not going to start a beyotch session with anyone, just throwing out a little trail etiquette instructional for newbs that are willing to try and minimize trail damage, we were all new to MTBing at some point.

    Pic 1 shows why even a few users yielding/passing off trail can be bad.
    Pic 2 shows the proper way to yield, ideally picking a rock or stump to put down the foot and keep the tires on the edge of the trail. Granted the effects of poor yielding technique are really magnified in a place like Fruita or Moab but it certainly doesn't hurt to do it here in the SLC area whenever possible. It isn't magic that pretty much all the trails here have transformed from singletrack to doubletrack.

    (pics stolen from otesports.com)
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    I would love to join you for a ride.

    I don't have a 45lb bike however. I think they rent them tho. I was being scarcastic in response to the "people are just going to do whatever they want statement. my point was everyone (up, down, big bike, little bike) can ride the trail, and to do whatever you want is selfish and ignorant. Not everyone rides like you.
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    "The only thing more annoying than people riding up the crest are those that ride up the crest and then complain about the trail "manners" of those coming down. What did you expect really?"

    You're a douche. It's safe to assume you're too fat and/or lazy to ride uphill. Riding Crest UPHILL is one of the best rides in the Wasatch. If you're that much of a narcissist, you should just become a roadie.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Flagg
    It's safe to assume you're too fat and/or lazy to ride uphill. Riding Crest UPHILL is one of the best rides in the Wasatch. If you're that much of a narcissist, you should just become a roadie.
    Real men can ride all kinds of bikes (road, xc, dh, fixie, dj, cyclocross, tandems and titanium singlespeeds) and don't worry about whether people are riding up or down the trail.

    JMH
    Last edited by JMH; 07-30-2008 at 01:23 PM.

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    Wow this got out of hand. It is bad enough that hikers and horse riders complain about us, but MTBers bad mouthing each other - wow. If we are not going to support one another, can we really blame the others for blocking MTB's from trail use?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMH
    Real men can ride all kinds of bikes (road, xc, dh, fixie, dj, cyclocross, tandems and titanium singlespeeds) and don't worry about whether people are riding up or down the trail.

    JMH
    My post was in response to JosephSmith's post stating he gets annoyed by people riding up Great Western then complainging about poor trail manners of those coming down without yielding to the uphill rider....thought that was clear.

  26. #26
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    Yeah - this thread kinda jumped the tracks. I was really trying to avoid offending anyone, because any chance of education is lost at that point.

    There is one commenter on this thread that is clearly just a troll - I think you can pick him out - I just put him on my ignore list.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Flagg
    My post was in response to JosephSmith's post stating he gets annoyed by people riding up Great Western then complainging about poor trail manners of those coming down without yielding to the uphill rider....thought that was clear.
    JosephSmith is a troll. Don't feed him.

    JMH

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    hey jmh guy, my opinion is just as valid as anyone else. When someone rides UP the crest trail they are outnumbered 10 to 1 and they are negatively affecting a whole lot of peoples experience by doing so. The thing that you all are forgetting that showing someone courtesy is neither the law nor a requirement, it is a choice. So remember that next time you want someone to lick your butt on the way up or you might just find yourself with a mouth full of dust as your body hits the ground and your face hits the trail.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMH
    JosephSmith is a troll. Don't feed him.

    JMH
    Really? I thought JosephSmith was a pedophile and crook that created a religion by dropping magic rocks into a hat and putting his face over it in order to translate magic plates that no one ever saw.

    The Joseph Smith that founded the LDS religion was kinda creepy too from what I've read.

    B

    P.S. Was that over the line? I think it might have been, but I coudn't help myself, it was just too easy
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  30. #30
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    Very few of Smith's extra wives were young... in many of them were quite old and it's unlikely they were ever "consecrated" in that sense. There was some controversy about one younger lady that he likely had an affair with (all of the wives were kept secret then, even from the rest of the church) that was definitely under 20... the details escape me. The irony is that it seems that he DIDN'T get around much even with all those wives and seemed to love Emma quite a bit. Brigham Young and the pioneers were much more over-the-top about the wives than Smith was, since it was out in the open by then.

    No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie is a great biography. A must-read for LDS and non-mormons alike.

    JMH

    Quote Originally Posted by Bortis Yelltzen
    Really? I thought JosephSmith was a pedophile and crook that created a religion by dropping magic rocks into a hat and putting his face over it in order to translate magic plates that no one ever saw.

    The Joseph Smith that founded the LDS religion was kinda creepy too from what I've read.

    B

    P.S. Was that over the line? I think it might have been, but I coudn't help myself, it was just too easy

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JosephSmith

    The only thing more annoying than people riding up the crest are those that ride up the crest and then complain about the trail "manners" of those coming down. What did you expect really?
    I must have missed the memo. Is it a one way?

  32. #32
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    Me, my wife, and everyone we ride with pull over and let the uphill people go by, i even ask them how they are doing and tell them how many more are coming behind me. heck i even pull over when im coming up hill and someone is coming down cause i know they are having way more fun then i am.
    so i don't get where some of you guys can trash talk those who ride lifts or shuttle trails. until you have done crest on a fr/dh bike you haven't really done crest (im joking, kind of). speaking of widening the trail, how many ways can you go down the spine these days? i thought it was called the spine cause you ride the spine, i could be wrong.
    i think there are more errosion problems and trails being made wider by people who choose to go around an obstacle instead of riding it or walking down it. it is obvious on a few places on the crest trail.

    there just needs to be less hating and more riding. don't stereotype DH people by a few bad ones, it gets old hearing people complain about the style i do yet if you go to a DH forum you never hear anyone complain about XC people. if you enjoy going up thats great, if not then who cares. its the same thing with skiing. some people just enjoy the downhill more. sure its more rewarding to bike up but sometimes time limits that. plus i would rather do 3 laps down a trail shuttling it then once up and down it.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by climbingbubba
    Me, my wife, and everyone we ride with pull over and let the uphill people go by, i even ask them how they are doing and tell them how many more are coming behind me. heck i even pull over when im coming up hill and someone is coming down cause i know they are having way more fun then i am.
    so i don't get where some of you guys can trash talk those who ride lifts or shuttle trails. until you have done crest on a fr/dh bike you haven't really done crest (im joking, kind of). speaking of widening the trail, how many ways can you go down the spine these days? i thought it was called the spine cause you ride the spine, i could be wrong.
    i think there are more errosion problems and trails being made wider by people who choose to go around an obstacle instead of riding it or walking down it. it is obvious on a few places on the crest trail.

    there just needs to be less hating and more riding. don't stereotype DH people by a few bad ones, it gets old hearing people complain about the style i do yet if you go to a DH forum you never hear anyone complain about XC people. if you enjoy going up thats great, if not then who cares. its the same thing with skiing. some people just enjoy the downhill more. sure its more rewarding to bike up but sometimes time limits that. plus i would rather do 3 laps down a trail shuttling it then once up and down it.
    IMO the point you raise is more about semantics, the lack of differentiation between DH riders and descending riders. This is not to say stereotyping doesn't exist, but in a lesser degree. With that in mind, let me ask........
    What rule of etiquette could a climbing rider break that would have a negative effect on a descending rider?
    I could think of only one, and it effects the trail more than the descending rider directly.
    If you reverse this question you'll see the deck is stacked to control descending riders, with good reason.

  34. #34
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    Stop the mtn biker on mtn biker violence.

    With regard to the statement below,

    Quote Originally Posted by JMH

    No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie is a great biography. A must-read for LDS and non-mormons alike.

    JMH

    The fabled historian Hugh Nibley wrote a follow up to Fawn's book called "No Ma'am, that ain't history" that made Brodie look like a dime store historian. If your going to read one, read the other.

  35. #35
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    I understand the point of the original poster, but especially regarding the location of the trail you're referring to, the whole thing is unnecessary.

    I love it - you're asking someone to tip-toe to the side so as not to squash a blade of grass (again, I honestly see part of your point....kind of), but the mountains up here are LOADED with ski runs where they just bull-dozed trees left and right so we could slide down the hills on two sticks - but you're worried about a footprint in the middle of the woods.

    What do you do when you see a moose trotting through the woods? Ask him to please stay on the trail?

    I don't mean to add fuel to the fire but some of you guys get really carried away.

    Lighten up, be nice to other riders out there and have fun - life is too short.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGAmoto
    I understand the point of the original poster, but especially regarding the location of the trail you're referring to, the whole thing is unnecessary.

    I love it - you're asking someone to tip-toe to the side so as not to squash a blade of grass (again, I honestly see part of your point....kind of), but the mountains up here are LOADED with ski runs where they just bull-dozed trees left and right so we could slide down the hills on two sticks - but you're worried about a footprint in the middle of the woods.

    What do you do when you see a moose trotting through the woods? Ask him to please stay on the trail?

    I don't mean to add fuel to the fire but some of you guys get really carried away.

    Lighten up, be nice to other riders out there and have fun - life is too short.
    Well, we're not talking about riding at ski resorts (but why don't you go over to Solitude and try riding off trail - if they catch you, you'll certainly be asked to leave), and we're not talking about moose tracks. We're talking about off-trail bike tracks. They do damage all you have to do is pay attention next time you're up there, and you'll see it. Is life too short to try and preserve nature, as best we can, so that others may also enjoy it?

  37. #37
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    We're talking about being literally over the hill from ski resorts - my argument was relevant. Just on the other side of the trailhead for Crest are ski runs.

    It's not like I don't respect the issue - believe me I'm aware of the dos and don'ts. I just think there's a point where a lot of panties get all bunched up thinking you're single-handedly going to save the Earth.

    But yeah believe me I know what you're saying - Up at Solitude, on a well marked trail, some people (let's call them irresponsible idiots for argument's sake) deliberately cut off a huge chunk of the marked trail to bulldoze though the tall grass. You can see right where they went off and back on (and this wasn't just a corner cut - it was a couple hundred feet). I was blown away - I actually stopped and tried to erase their tire tracks so it wasn't as obvious where they came back on. I mean, there was even tall grass pushed down back into the trail. They may as well have posted a huge neon sign.

    That stuff pisses me of. They have already posted signs warning about this saying "all privileges will be revoked if riding on unmarked trails continues". Solitude doesn't make enough money keeping those trails maintained - I bet it would not take much to shut it down.

    But on a more positive note - get up here and ride! It's been raining for the past week - just a little at a time. I went out today and it was great.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErrantGorgon
    The fabled historian Hugh Nibley wrote a follow up to Fawn's book called "No Ma'am, that ain't history" that made Brodie look like a dime store historian. If your going to read one, read the other.
    I suppose I should check it out. Although I must admit I am skeptical of anything written by such a notorious religious apologist. Discrediting a published historic account by using the public record is one thing, manipulating history and science as "evidence" for defending matters of faith is entirely another.

    I respect his scholarship but question his methods.

    And to put this all back on topic: Mountain Bikers rule. Please end all Up Vs Down hostility immediately, and accept that there will be some trampled grass. It's unfortunate, but the only way we can TRULY save the environment is for people to stop visiting these areas entirely. Anything less extreme is hypocritical. But frankly, that's not going to happen and it's not much fun. Tread lightly, try not to **** up too much stuff while you are out there.

  39. #39
    mtbr member
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    Oct 2005
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    316

    This is why I ride . . .

    . . . at 4am. No one to worry about going up. No one to worry about going down. (except for those crazy trail running folks who go all night! -- And yes, they yelled at me for ascending the Great Western at high speed - truly, they did)

    After 10pm is also a good time. A little creepy if you're riding solo, though.

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