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  1. #1
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    Collins-Robs in Park City

    Robs will become uphill only on 10 June (from Rosebud Heaven intersection to Ambush intersection). Apparently the downhill bike traffic was out of control for the hikers. It's a shame, but the crowds are growing and it does seem we are getting a lot of riders that don't self-regulate very well.
    Last edited by MSU Alum; 06-05-2017 at 05:00 AM.

  2. #2
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    I used to go down Rob's coming out at the top of Sun Peak subdivision when doing the Crest trail. I assume that's no longer doable. What's the best option to get down from Crest trail if trying to get to Kimball Junction area?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by stenou View Post
    I used to go down Rob's coming out at the top of Sun Peak subdivision when doing the Crest trail. I assume that's no longer doable. What's the best option to get down from Crest trail if trying to get to Kimball Junction area?
    The route back down to the Sun Peak division is Ambush/Holly's (if I remember correctly) back onto Collin's. Also, there is a fairly new trail (Olympic, I think) that goes to the Olympic Park from the intersection of Rob's/Ambush that looks interesting. Further up, you can also take the trail (HT of Mid Mountain) all the way to Pinebrook. That's a fun ride.

  4. #4
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    This was inevitable - the trail is easy (too easy) to bomb, and it's popular with hikers/families/dogs. Probably a good call.

    The new trail through UOP is easy to find from the Ambush intersection (because it starts there). It's a mostly flat/boring but scenic 1 mile across to the top of the peak above the Bobsled start house, then your choice of several somewhat switchbacky but fun trails to descend (and descend a lot, you're 1500' above Kimball Junction!) My personal favorite is to head right/east down to Moose Puddle/RTS, or else Iron Bill/RTS. Some routefinding will be required either way but Trailforks has it all.

    The Ambush/Rosebud's/Collin's descent is pretty awesome too, but does require a little bit (maybe 300 feet) of moderate climbing up Rosebud's. If you don't want to do that, you can finish down Ambush and split off onto the new Holly's (pretty lame and popular with hikers but non-technical) or Lower Insurgent (much more fun) to the Canyons village.

    Finally, you can go right at the Midmountain/Crest Connect intersection and enjoy some mostly downhill flowy stuff to the top of the Canyons bike park, then pick your favorite jump trail (or the Canyons DH course) and finish that way.

    -Walt

  5. #5
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    If your goal is to end as closely to the bottom of Rob's at the top of Sun Peak subdivision, then take the "Olympic" trail to the top of the UOP Bobsled trail, turn right on the UOP Bobsled trail (named "Moose Puddle" on trailforks), descend to the top of the Olympic bobsled track, then turn right on the pavement, go through/around the metal gate on Bear Hollow drive and descend the pavement ~ 1/4 mile or less to the Robs TH parking.

    I'm pretty happy about this change. This should funnel the Crest DH traffic to the UOP area or back to the Canyons resort area. With the addition of the Olympic trail connecting the UOP trail, a bunch of loop options open up to include the Canyons, UOP, and Pinebrook. Trailforks is all up-to-date on those trails, with the exception of Pinebrook, which are technically private trails owned by the HOA. If you ride in there, be especially courteous.

  6. #6
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    Sad to loose a great descending trail. Robs is not the gnarliest of trails but it is a great long continuous descent and a great way to end a crest ride outside of resorts. Robs has few switchbacks and maintains its speed throughout with some great little rocky sections to keep you honest....shame we are loosing this to entitled old rich angry hikers...hope they are happy...FU! Go hike in wilderness if you dont want to see a bike and share your trails.

    Yes there are other options but Its a shame that all the newest trails over at olympic park suck balls in comparison to Robs. Dont get me wrong theres potential there and the trails at olympic have their moments, but if thats what replaces Robs trail as a descent option...kinda sucks. Looks like Canyons to descend it is...fine with me. Those trails are better anyways. Redcoat, Insurgent, Hollys all good in my book.


    So are we going to see more good bombing trails shut down because angry hikers panties get in a bunch anytime a biker is enjoying himself? I mean please tell me which trails im allowed to bomb down outside of the resort? Cause id hate to get every great descending trail turned into a uphill only.

    Im all for directional trails. And in the process we should consider the overall characteristics of a trail whether it would make a better uphill only or downhill only. But to turn a great descending trail into uphill only to punish mountain bikers because they ride it to "fast" is a damn shame. Get the hikers their own trails and make mountain bike trails directional.

    Had a long and good conversation with Bob and I understand the reasons for the change but I disagree and think there are better solutions. I hope this change is temporary or at least in the near future we can get a new trail as good as Robs....or better

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmar123 View Post
    FU! Go hike in wilderness if you dont want to see a bike and share your trails.

    Looks like Canyons to descend it is...fine with me. Those trails are better anyways. Redcoat, Insurgent, Hollys all good in my book.

    Im all for directional trails.

    Get the hikers their own trails and make mountain bike trails directional.
    Looks like you got your wish.

    You're all for hikers having their own trails, you're all for directional trails and like the downhills at the Canyons because they're better. But Rob's is sacred?

    I'm not happy about it, and I'm not a hiker, but I could see it coming, especially in the last couple of years. Everyone on the trail has the right of way over downhill bikers. But you wouldn't know it from an increasing number of bikers on the trails. On most of the hundreds of miles of trails up here, we rarely even see hikers. But they also have a right to be on the trails and at least feel safe, especially on the few trails that are accessible to neighborhoods.

    An increasing minority (and I'm pretty sure none of the offenders are on this board) don't give way to uphill traffic or hikers, come screaming around blind corners on trails families use and even when there's a good sight line often they don't even know there's a front brake on the bike, so they slam on just the rear brakes, skid for 20 or 30 feet and almost take you out anyway. Then they look at you like you're an inconvenience.

    It's that kind of entitled attitude a small number of bikers have that brought this on. If it doesn't change, there will be more of the same.

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    yeah Robs is/was a special trail, it was a very aesthetic way to end a crest ride outside of resorts.

    Yeah im all for hikers getting their own trails and mountainbikers getting directional trails where it makes sense ...but not at the expense of loosing good existing descending trails. Are we going to see every good descending trail turned into an uphill only because mountain bikers are making snowflake hikers "uncomfortable"? Because thats exactly whats going on here.

    and lets just call this out as what it is...mountain bikers are getting the shaft because a few people are uncomfortable being on the same trail as mountain bikers.

    Id gladly support all the trails in olympic park to be designated as hiking only in order to get Robs trail back as a descending trail. I mean why not make the whole olympic park area hiking only that would surely satisfy all the hikers bitching about Robs trail.

    I totally support directional trails, and the way I would've or think this shoul've been done is to make Rosebud/Ambush uphill only and make Robs downhill only. Or shoot id be perfectly fine with rosebud/ambush being hiking only and make Robs biking only.

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    Maybe my panties wouldn't be all up in a bunch if Basin Rec announced some plans to build a good descending only route that would be as good to replace Robs trail.

    To loose good fast descending trails with some technical features when every new trail being built especially in the olympic park area is mind numbing boring single track kinda sucks.

    What are we going to lose next? Spiro? Mill D? Beartrap? Big Water? Empire? LCC? When they going to put up downhill only signage?

    Thing is mountain bikers aren't the ones advocating to get hikers off the multi use trails and are perfectly fine sharing the trails. Hikers have a gazillion miles of wilderness trails to enjoy free of mountain bikers and its still not enough that they gotta F' up the trails we as mountain bikers are allowed to enjoy. Hikers need to realize that when hiking on multi use trails that they are going to encounter bikes and some may be traveling at speeds that they may find to be uncomfortable, but thats just the nature of multi use trails and its not going to change....like I said if hikers want trails free of bikes go to the wilderness or find a hiking only trail. Just irks me that hikers choose to hike on multi use trails and then bitch about how other user groups inconvenienced them...BS.

    Bikers (outside of lift served resorts) dont even nearly have the amount of trails, not even close!, that hikers get to enjoy free of other user groups. so consider that when hikers start to bitch about trails. Cant even imagine how awesome it would be if mountain bikers had half of the trails that hikers get to enjoy free of other user groups. When considering this hikers really come across as entitled spoiled brats. sorry to come across as hostile and divisive but...just sayin.

  10. #10
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    Robs was meh anyway (I guess opinions vary?) - it's wide and mostly straight. Even folks with next to no skills could go 20+ mph on it - and they did, and they didn't yield to hikers or ride with courtesy, and that's what you get.

    If you want to get your shred on, there are a ton of trails with fun turns, whoops, grade reversals, air time, etc all over the place that are either bike-only (Canyons, DV, Trailside, Arcylon, Bob's Basin trails) or so unpopulated you'll never see anyone (Moose Knuckle, Big Mountain trails, Crest Connect/Ambush, Iron Bill, even Collins in my experience, many more).

    Rob's is a pedestrian superhighway. If you were bombing it during normal hours you were probably riding irresponsibly.

    Look, mountain bikers are only allowed on the trails because we generally behave. We're fast, scary, and dangerous in many circumstances. Go for a hike with a 3 year old sometime and you'll understand immediately.

    Whether you realize it or not, we're also a minority of trail users.

    Save your shredding for appropriate places. I personally won't shed a single tear for Rob's as a DH run, it was dead boring, super crowded, and something I avoided anyway. If it was your favorite trail (inexplicably) then that's a bummer.

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Robs was meh anyway (I guess opinions vary?) - it's wide and mostly straight. Even folks with next to no skills could go 20+ mph on it - and they did, and they didn't yield to hikers or ride with courtesy, and that's what you get.

    If you want to get your shred on, there are a ton of trails with fun turns, whoops, grade reversals, air time, etc all over the place that are either bike-only (Canyons, DV, Trailside, Arcylon, Bob's Basin trails) or so unpopulated you'll never see anyone (Moose Knuckle, Big Mountain trails, Crest Connect/Ambush, Iron Bill, even Collins in my experience, many more).

    Rob's is a pedestrian superhighway. I am not sure If you were bombing it during normal hours you were probably riding irresponsibly.

    Look, mountain bikers are only allowed on the trails because we generally behave. We're fast, scary, and dangerous in many circumstances. Go for a hike with a 3 year old sometime and you'll understand immediately.

    Whether you realize it or not, we're also a minority of trail users.

    Save your shredding for appropriate places. I personally won't shed a single tear for Rob's as a DH run, it was dead boring, super crowded, and something I avoided anyway. If it was your favorite trail (inexplicably) then that's a bummer.

    -Walt
    Never considered Robs as a "DH" run or my favorite.

    I've descended MMconnect/Robs/Collins from Crest plenty of times free of hikers or very minimal. And the times I've encountered hikers have all been just fine and conflict free.

    I can tell you that outside the Canyons resort that^ descent is better then anything else in the area. Ambush/Rosebud and all the lame stuff over at Olymipic pale in comparison... And dropping into the Mill Creek side on Big Water is far more crowded...hey maybe they should shut that trail down too. Mill D is far more crowded as well ....SHUT IT DOWN!

    Honestly Canyon's Insurgent and DH trails are more my style anyways and would rather ride that stuff but sometimes fast and flowy is fun too. Not everyone I ride with likes the steep and tech so Robs/Collins is a good trail for all riding levels. If you cant enjoy Robs/Collins your doing it wrong...if you have similar trails in the area that you find are better to descend after a Crest ride aside from Canyons Id love to hear about them.

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    Every trail descending from the Crest is a "super highway"....Beartrap, Mill D, Millcreek/Bigwater and are way more crowded then MM connect/Robs/Collins. SHUT EM ALL DOWN!!!

    In the area aside from Canyons DH trails I would love to hear what you consider as a better more continuous descent after riding the full Crest other then MM connect/Robs/Collins

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    I like Ambush/Lower Insurgent, or any of the Canyons DH trails, or UOP via Iron Bill, or Ambush/Rosebud's/Collin's all much better. More turns, more interesting terrain, fewer people, etc. You're aware that it's just the section of Rob's from Rosebud's to Ambush affected by this, right?

    The Millcreek side is already shut down on some weekend days. That's what happens when population in the Wasatch is growing as fast as it is. C'est la vie.

    Look, when there are lots of users, mountain bikes get shut out. That's true everywhere. Advocate for new trail options (bitching here doesn't count), ride responsibly, and be aware that you can move to, say, Western MA and have all the trails you want to ride with nobody on them. UT is a popular place.

    -Walt

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    I'd say by the supposed "unbearable" amount of traffic on Robs and the reason downhill bike traffic isn't allowed anymore it was by far the most popular/best descending route.

    Robs trail itself isn't a classic, but it is a key part of trail to link the longest most continuous descent on the PC side, which I do consider a classic descent. When pedaling a Crest xc loop from PC resort
    Crest> MMconnect> Robs> Collins> Dubois was the big payoff descent and made for a very aesthetic loop.

    The Ambush/Rosebud option ruins that descent...Ambush is ok, Rosebud kinda blows. Olympic park trails suck. The Canyons MM> Redcoat> Insurgent> Ricochet descent is great, but its not quite as long and your riding resort....I actually rode that yesterday, bummer they sanitized the crap out of lower Ricochet, its now a doublewide brown sidewalk, really hope they put in some features since they got rid of all the small technical stuff it had going for it....lame.

    Yeah I know where all the goods are in PC. Theres a lot of good steeper tech and freeride stuff where you won't see hikers, but theres also longer xc rides that I enjoy too that unfortunately are more popular and crowded.

    Think we can all agree that our multi use trails can be managed in a way where its a win/win situation for both user groups and mountain bikers aren't the ones always getting shafted.

    On popular out and back multi use trails such as Robs, Big Water, Mill D, LCC etc. rather then banning downhill bike traffic why not go to a odd/even Bike only/Hike only user schedule instead...would be a win/win for everyone. Would much rather do that then be shut out completely. Big Water is somewhat a good example but the days bikes are allowed I think it should be bike only and no hikers.

    Who knows maybe the sacrifice of Robs trail to the hiking gods will result in a better new mountain bike only trail somewhere. Hopefully that long continuous descent from the Crest will be restored someday.

    If you haven't yet id recommend to check out High Star Ranch trails...good stuff going on there.

  15. #15
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    Will Rob's still be uphill only for winter fat biking?
    2019 SB130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apexit View Post
    Will Rob's still be uphill only for winter fat biking?
    We need to talk to Basin Rec about making it a seasonal uphill only. Robs is often the only trail with decent snow coverage in winter. All the other ways down melt off or turn to ice, Robs is north facing.
    Robs is a neighborhood trail, it was never meant to be a "bomber" downhill. With the increase in Summer tourism more and more people have been riding our trails as if they were the only person left on earth. Trail etiquette is a real issue.
    The closer you are to a trailhead, the more concentrated the number of users there will be. RIDE ACCORDINGLY. AS you get farther back into the woods you can expect fewer other people and usually can let it go a bit.

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    I sort of agree with dmar123 ... Robs was no star on its own, but it was part of a great loop, and the other options are less than attractive.

    warning...the rest of this post is flammable and stupid but i can't help myself...

    I do see the issue slightly differently and blame the shuttle and enduro culture ... used to be no one rode down the crest into the canyons. then the shuttle crowd picked up on it, and bamn! the whole thing got hammered. the brake bumps up high on the crest connector are a great example - sure the trail is too steep to be sustainable, but with less traffic it wasn't an issue.

    as long as people treat multi-use trails as part of some DH run, then we'll continue to have conflict issues.

    saw that fox/roxy shuttle guy sitting in the lot last night. F* that ... go ride. sick of the shuttle traffic. if you want gravity, go to the resorts and ride the lifts or put the time in to climb up what you ride down. i won't complain about people riding down tidal wave over and over. that's perfect.

    everyone wants easy. easy = lame. build some character. sweat. hurt. it makes the down more rewarding and when you run into people you might have a different attitude.

    yeah, i'm a snob. i can live with that because i know i'm on the right side of it. you can argue that easy is good, but deep down you know there is some thing in your life that was hard and you did it and you know it made you feel better than any easy thing ever did. so get out of those shuttles and go ride!

  18. #18
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    I think I agree with everything everyone has said!

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    Whoever to blame, whether it be drones of tourist hikers overcrowding the trails taking selfies wearing headphones with off leash dogs, enduro shuttlers, or lycra wearing squirrels with baseball bats...The real problem is the way this has been handled. Im a fan of Basin Rec, but Rob's could've easily been a win/win for both hikers and bikers by going to a odd/even hike/bike only schedule.

    Same goes for trails like Mill D, Big Water, Beartrap, and LCC. Because I know theres people already bitching about these trails too, and want to see the same thing happen as what happened to Robs. Shutting out downhill traffic on popular multi use trails that are good for descending is NOT the answer.....odd/even hike/bike only is the way to go.

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    Or even better, as a rider going downhill, make a point to yield to everyone and say hi, even if they look like they're about to step out of your way.

    It's not Basin Rec that did this. It's all of us who didn't ride in control (hint: that's slower than you *can* go) on a neighborhood trail that's super popular with families, grannies, and other normal people just out for a hike.

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmar123 View Post
    Whoever to blame, whether it be drones of tourist hikers overcrowding the trails taking selfies wearing headphones with off leash dogs, enduro shuttlers, or lycra wearing squirrels with baseball bats...The real problem is the way this has been handled. Im a fan of Basin Rec, but Rob's could've easily been a win/win for both hikers and bikers by going to a odd/even hike/bike only schedule.
    Ha. this made me laugh. i nearly got run down by one of those squirrels the other day.

    I think both you and Walt are right - we did it to ourselves, but the trail managers might have been able to find a better solution - like odd/even that would have been totally acceptable.

    i can't claim to a perfect record of not going too fast for the conditions. I do try, but sometimes I lose the battle.

    I think the message needs to get out to the masses. Maybe the shuttle operators already do, but they should be sending a message to their clients about how to ride to keep access open.

    that brings me to my other only slightly related gripe: riding in big groups. just stop. more than 5 or 6 of you? quit it. it sucks for everyone else and makes your impact that much greater. if you need a big group to motivate to ride, find another sport where you won't be so lonely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slcpunk View Post
    if you need a big group to motivate to ride, find another sport where you won't be so lonely.
    Like road biking!

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    My son and I were on a climb about a week ago and came upon a small group of hikers coming down. We pulled over for them and they thanked us as they went by. My son said you're welcome, after all YOU have the right of way. One of the hikers commented, "how come you're the only mountain bikers that know that". How come, indeed. I don't always give way to hikers as I climb. Often they commit early to moving over, but I don't mind doing so.

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    I agree that we should all take responsibiltiy for our actions out on the trail.

    I dont know what the appropriate speed is for everyone...but my general rule of thumb is if you have a good line of sight with no one ahead let it rip. If you're entering blind corners ride at speeds that will allow you to stop suddenly for encountering uphill traffic.

    That was one thing that was actually good about Robs is that yeah you can get going fast but the line of sight was also good so you could see far ahead, theres few blind corners on it.

    IME hikers will step aside 99% of the time WAY before I even get to where they are, not because I fail to yield or slow down but because it seems that its just easiest for them and us bikers. I always stop and pull off for uphill bike traffic. I have no problems yielding and always say thanks or hello on the trail.

    Believe me there are plenty of overly sensitive hikers out there and would love to see nothing more then bikers banned from every damn trail....Whether people are riding slow, fast, yielding or not if theres a high amount of bike traffic on a trail hikers are going to bitch. Almost ALL of the Wasatch's trail are MULTI USE and we have just as much right to enjoy them as everyone else.

    Hikers need to stop hiking in big groups, They need to pay more attention out on the trails. Hikers need to realize that yes there are going to be mountain bikes out there too. Leash your f'ing dogs. Pick up your shit. Don't wear headphones. Its not all the bikers fault and no we didnt do this to ourselves.

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    Dude, even if they step aside, yield. Stop and say hi and make it really clear that you're yielding.

    "Hikers need to stop hiking in big groups"... this is hilarious. Hikers are the lowest impact/speed users of the trail. They can do basically whatever they want (in big groups or not), they can chat with their friends, they can stop to watch the birds, they can let their kids look at bugs in the trail. And you HAVE TO YIELD TO THEM on your bike. Period.

    Bikes are fast and potentially dangerous to other trail users. We have to hold ourselves to the highest possible standard. And we also need to realize that if a trail gets crowded enough, we DO NOT BELONG THERE anymore. You don't have a right to ride your bike anywhere you want, and if a trail is super popular with hikers and bikes are ruining their experience or endangering people, that's that.

    -Walt

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    I disagree, period. If a hiker steps aside and waves me through I'm going and I will say hi and thank you as I roll through.

    So if I'm riding my bike at the same speed as hikers I get to do whatever I want? haha.

    I understand that yielding to hikers is a must, but if they wave me through I'm going...sorry. I dont agree that hikers should get to do whatever they want, There are plenty of circumstances where they are the ones creating a dangerous situation...

    If trails get too crowded why can't it be given to mountain bikers? Maybe hikers are the ones who need to go somewhere else and DONT BELONG THERE...Bikers dont nearly have the luxury that hikers do to go to hiker only trails and wilderness. Basically every trail that bikes are allowed on in Park City or the whole Wasatch range for that matter is a multi use trail. Maybe its time to turn some of those into mountain bike only.

    Just because we have to yield to hikers out on the trail doesn't mean every trail belongs to them.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Dude, even if they step aside, yield. Stop and say hi and make it really clear that you're yielding.

    -Walt
    That is absurd!
    When I'm going up something hard and a 30 year old guy steps to the side for me, I'm going to thank him for his charity and press on! If it's nuns cracking the whip on blind orphans I will indeed insist that they go ahead. In between I'm going to exercise what little judgement I have.
    Last edited by MSU Alum; 06-16-2017 at 06:33 PM.

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    To put things into perspective, how many millions of miles of hiking only and wilderness trails exist that offer a pristine user experience for hikers only? A LOT.

    Now, how many miles of MOUNTAIN.... BIKE.....ONLY, think about that ...mountain bike only... trails exist that can offer a similar user experience for bikers only? I dont know of a single trail where only mountain bikers are allowed that offer that level of remoteness and a pristine user experience free of other user groups.

    Hikers have it pretty damn good, now how bout a little grace towards mountain bikers...basically every trail we have is a shared trail. I know there are a few mountain bike only trails but that pales in comparison to the amount of hike only trails. More trails should be bike only, not less.

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    Just off the top of my head, I can think of locally:
    -The entire Canyons bike park.
    -Bob's Basin.
    -The entire DV bike park.
    -Arcylon.
    -Trailside bike park.

    The entire Crest to the end of Crest Connect is for all practical purposes a no-hiker zone, too, just because it's remote enough that people don't hike it much.

    Those are all bike only. Other than the trail up behind the white barn to MM (name escapes me), Armstrong (one way) and now Rob's (one way) I don't know of any no-bikes trails in the entire Basin.

    If you don't want to yield to hikers, ride stuff that's not popular with them. There are a ton of options. Hell, even on Flying Dog you won't generally see anyone on foot.

    And guys, I used to live in Boulder. I know how this works. You never win if you get mad and make hikers your enemies. All you do is lose. Take the Rob's loss as a lesson and act accordingly.

    -Walt

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    Never said I didn't want to yield to hikers and I'm not trying to make anyone an enemy.

    odd/even days win/win thats all. bye.

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    One of the things we did in Boulder that worked really well for crowded areas was directional trails (works best on loops like Flying Dog) where people on foot can know which direction to expect bikes and choose their route accordingly. You can swap the direction periodically. IMO it solves most of the conflict problems (and lets everyone have more fun - wouldn't it be great to know there wasn't anyone riding up through the aspen grove on Flying Dog toward you?)

    Now, in the case of Rob's, I think it's just too popular of a trail to do odd/even days. It was part of my commute home from dropping kids at daycare (I know, awesome to live here, right?) for a couple of years when they were really little, so I probably rode it 200-300 times over that period. I basically *never* had the trail to myself, and I often ran into ~20 people just on the section from Rosebud's to the trailhead. This is on weekdays only, mid-morning or mid-afternoon.

    Collins? Almost always empty. Rosebuds/Hollys/Ambush? Very rare to see anyone. UOP mostly empty too, even before the new trails were built and it was just Iron Bill. But Rob's always had people. It would be neat to propose a new routing (you can go direct from near the Ambush intersection pretty close to the trailhead on a pretty rad trail, but there are a ton of trees down usually) to bypass the current Rob's. Basin Rec has the resources to build it, too.

    -Walt

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    this sort of thing is inevitable with the reckless behavior of some "Strava KOM chasing riders", who continually "overdrive their headlights (vision)" around most blind corners. AKA: A lot of shuttlers.

    I have only run across a handful of douchebag hikers, most are simply out having a good time. But the average reaction to MTBer trail courtesy show that MTBers riding respectfully and responsibly are in the minority.

  33. #33
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    Some DB on here is trying to make a name for himself as a YouTube celebrity. He's a local from Utah. His last video that he wants constructive criticism on shows him riding off trail around some uphill hikers. The included commentary says to stay on the trail unless you're passing hikers. Then it's ok.

    This kind of crap is what we're up against and why we are losing trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Some DB on here is trying to make a name for himself as a YouTube celebrity. He's a local from Utah. His last video that he wants constructive criticism on shows him riding off trail around some uphill hikers. The included commentary says to stay on the trail unless you're passing hikers. Then it's ok.

    This kind of crap is what we're up against and why we are losing trails.

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    This goes both ways...plenty of times I see hikers off trail letting other hikers pass or bikes go by. Its not just bikes who go off trail. The overlying issue is our popular trails are getting even more crowded. Rather then taking away a popular trail from any user group it would be better to go to an odd/even hike/bike user schedule so both groups still get to enjoy the trail.

    Its really a shame they closed Robs to descending. All this closure is going to do is put more strain on popular descending trails like Mill D, Millcreek, and Big Water.

    For Ambush/Collins or Olympic to be a viable replacement to Robs they should at least designate them as downhill only.

  35. #35
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    I mean hikers can do no wrong huh? How bout not piking up their dog shit? Off leash dogs? Littering? Booby trapping trails? Wondering off trail? Partying, broken glass, graffiti vandalism? Lots of dumbass hikers on the trails too. Lots of dumb crap happens on a daily basis out on the trails, and id say the majority of it is from people on foot.

  36. #36
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    Dude, one more time: you don't win by throwing the majority user group under the bus to excuse your own user group's poor behavior.

    We're the fast scary dangerous ones. C'est la vie. That makes us responsible for keeping everyone else safe and happy.

    IMO the SLC side descents are all going to be shut to bikes in the next decade. UT is just growing too fast.

    -Walt

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    Blaming what hikers do doesn't excuse what MTBers do. In fact it simply alienates them further.

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    Duuuuuude, one more time....not trying to excuse anyones behaviors, just tired of you all saying mountain bikers are the only problem out there. You make it sound like hikers can do no wrong, I'm just not scared to point that out. When looking at the big picture ALL this need to be considered when managing trails...and not just pointing fingers at mountain bikers.

    The majority of the Mountain bike community and Hiking communities are good folks and I've always had good interactions out on the trail.

    I agree that a few of our trails are getting more crowded every year and action could be necessary...I dont think shutting mountain bikers out is right or fair because its a combination of both hikers and bikers contributing to the overcrowding of trails.

    I recently rode my motorcycle up Big Cottonwood canyon and it was insane how full every trailhead was....cars lined up a mile down the road. A odd/even schedule on a few of the more popular trails would not only relieve the traffic on the trails but it would also cut down on a lot of the congestion and traffic in the canyons.

    Hopefully in the next decade if whoever decides any action is necessary we will go to a odd/even day schedue rather then shutting out mountain bikers, wish you guys felt the same about that... and we'll see more purpose built trails for mountain biking.

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    but you sound like you are trying to excuse behaviors, "but but but look at them!". That stuff works fine in middle school, but I thought we are beyond that?

    Alienating a segment who outnumbers us big-time is a bad move for our hobby, just sayin'.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahJohn View Post
    but you sound like you are trying to excuse behaviors, "but but but look at them!". That stuff works fine in middle school, but I thought we are beyond that?

    Alienating a segment who outnumbers us big-time is a bad move for our hobby, just sayin'.
    ok bud. dont expect me to roll over....if history has taught us anything its to stand up for what you believe is right, being outnumbered has nothing to do with it. now go crawl back underneath your rock.

  41. #41
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    It's outdoor recreation. Being outnumbered has *everything* to do with it. There's no constitutional right to ride your bike (or motorcycle, or nuclear powered pogo-stick) on a public trail - this isn't like being a persecuted religious group or something. It's a pointless fun hobby.

    If a minority user group (a fast, potentially dangerous one, no less!) is ruining the experience of a larger user group, what do you think the land manager is going to do?

    Slow down, yield even when you don't think you *have* to, be nice.

    -Walt

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    you win battles like this by finding common ground (love of the outdoors), not giving the other side a great excuse to exclude us.

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    Wish I could believe your kumbaya stories but think you guys are a little naive.

    What if its the larger group ruining the minority user groups experience? Is that then ok?

    Hikers are overcrowding the trails. There is not enough parking to accommodate all the hikers in the canyons. The trails and canyons were never meant to support that many number of people on a given day. I would like to see a permit system that would limit the amount of hikers on popular trails per day. Also odd/even bike/hike user schedules on busy trails....Sorry but if that makes hikers angry or they feel alienated tough shit welcome to the club. That above is a legitimate concern and solution to the overcrowding of trails. Its a good solution and both usergroups would have to sacrifice and find common ground.

    Excluding mountain bikers from trails and banning them from descending trails is not an example of common ground or love for the outdoors...its simply selfish and an attack on mountain bikers. And that I will fight, and I dont care if it upsets hikers in doing so.

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    Basically, everyone (at least everyone who can mountain bike) can hike. You're not being excluded from anything. Your bike might be. But like I said, you don't have any special right to ride your bike on a trail, especially if bikes on the that trail are causing problems.

    I've been involved in trail advocacy (for mountain bikes) for 20 years. Bluntly, your attitude and tone (entitled, whiny, and uninformed) are what gets trails closed - you will get openly laughed at in a city council meeting if you start ranting about your "right" to ride trails, or how hikers are ruining your stoke. The vast majority of the users of public trails are hikers, and if you want to keep your access, mountain bikers collectively have to behave themselves. People didn't (I witnessed this myself many times) on Rob's.

    -Walt
    Last edited by Walt; 06-21-2017 at 08:41 PM.

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    Collins-Robs in Park City-img_20170204_110046690.jpg
    Sometimes Rickety, not a turd

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    PEOPLE are over-crowding the trails, not hikers. Motorcycles and ATVs are a perfect example of "ruining the experience" for many folks. Note how many places they have to ride in the Wasatch.

    When a hiker passes another hiker, it's not a common thing for them to say "I wish they weren't allowed up here". Now, how many times do they say that about the MTBer who just flashed past and they have to pick the trail dust out of their teeth and eyes?

    Or a dog almost gets run over by a MTBer. On leash or not doesn't matter, their thought process is going to be "that wouldn't have happened if bikes weren't allowed up here!". A dog is rarely going to get mowed over by another hiker.

    These are the issue MTBers need to be aware of, not rocking the boat (creating a reason to be banned).

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    Great job Walt, way to keep Robs open as a descending option for bikes. I can see in your 20 years you've done so much for mountain bikers. Seriously though I dont know you and if you have done good things thats great.

    I sound entitled, whiny, and uninformed? really? Oh, but thats perfect though, because thats exactly how hikers sound and its working out pretty good for them. I should fit right in the debate. Maybe if more mountain bikers sounded that way people would listen

    Bikers have every right to use a multi use trail as hikers do. Yes bikers have a right to use a multi use trail, period. If bikers want to shuttle or ride with a group of 100 they have every right to do so on a multi use trail.

    Not sure what user experience you think hikers are entitled to when hiking on a multi use trail but its not what you'd get in the wilderness. You are on a multi use trail and there WILL be mountain bikers whether you like it or not, so pucker up buttercup. Being annoyed or inconvenienced is not sufficient for banning a user group, it needs to be addressed, and and it needs to stop now. Being inconvenienced is something that all user groups deal with for the sake of others so they can enjoy the trail.

    Banning bikes isn't common ground, its selfish and hateful. There are other solutions that will allow all user groups to continue to enjoy the same trails.

    I dont know why you keep bringing up minority, majority. Thats a slippery slope your on. Mountain biking has absolutely exploded and continues to grow every year. Maybe there are more hikers then bikers, but that is changing fast. In another decade i wouldn't be surprised if we were the majority. And when it comes to certain trails and trail networks mountain bikers are the clear majority of users. Id say PC trails and Corner Canyon is majority of mountain bikers.

    Wouldn't be surprised to get laughed at in a city council meeting full of hikers, pretty disrespectful if you ask me.

    I agree though myself included, mountain bikers should attend more meetings, dont always have the time. Will try harder, if you hear loud bursts of laughter that may be me speaking

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    I won't bother to defend or explain the various work I've done on your (our) behalf, but I will say that insulting people who do trail advocacy work (as well as regular trail work) is a pretty silly thing to do.

    Trails don't have to *stay* multi-use if we blow our chance to ride responsibly. In fact, that's what just happened. We're all guests on public lands, and we don't have a right to operate any particular type of vehicle there, especially if we operate those vehicles like *sshats.

    I'm not sure why I'm even continuing to discuss this, though. I think there's a fundamental disconnect between those of us who have actually been around and seen trails closed (and opened/built) over the years and those folks who haven't or don't care. C'est la vie.

    -Walt

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    c'mon really your insulted? your probably older then me and thick skinned... this is a good debate.

    I agree that all trails dont have to remain multi use, and whether thats because of abuse or safety concerns or peoples panties curling up their crack, you have to agree that there are other solutions, better solutions, then shutting mountain bikers out from trails completely. Why dont we advocate for that first and foremost rather then throwing in the towel?

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    you can have 100 perfectly polite and responsible MTBers on the trail pass 30 hikers. Then 5 shuttlers blow past at 25mph giving the hikers the finger with a bunch of cursing, and guess what the hikers remember?

    Shutting MTBers off of trails completely IS THE SOLUTION to the douchebags riding bikes, as far is admin goes. Yes there are better solutions, but when MTBers have an "entitled" mentality and aren't willing to behave around other trail users, shutting the trail down is the easiest thing to do. So right or wrong, that is the result. Fighting and arguing is NOT the solution.

  51. #51
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    What is the history of Rob? Haven't hung out much since 2005. Who is/was the mother?

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahJohn View Post
    ... Fighting and arguing is NOT the solution.
    Of course its not, but ...arguing, debating, hashing it out, IS part of the process to arrive at a solution.

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