Another Survey on Directional Trails for Park City- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Another Survey on Directional Trails for Park City

    It looks like they are starting to get serious about directional trails in Park City. Here is an exert from a newsletter I just got from Basin Rec. Also, here is another survey, this one regarding making trails for Flying Dog directional: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/Q6RVBNQ


    Poached from a Basin News Newsletter:

    If you've spent any time on the trails recently, you have probably noticed they've gotten more and more popular over the years. Our staff loves when our trails are widely enjoyed, but with the additional use comes an extra set of challenges. How do we manage our current trails? How do we improve them? What should our intentions be when we build new trails? We're always looking for ways to enhance user experiences.

    As Trails & Open Space Manager, Bob Radke explains, "With the increasing use of our trails, we want to make sure people continue to experience the trails the way they want to. How do we do that?"

    To find out what type of new trails our community wanted near Kimball Junction, we distributed a three-question survey to gather some direct feedback. We're excited to report that over 400 trail users filled out the survey. Here are some of the highlights:

    52% of respondents want more mountain bike-only trails
    31% of respondents want more multi-use bi-directional trails
    94% of respondents have used our trails for mountain biking
    35% of respondents have used our trails for hiking

    As expected, there are a lot of mountain bikers in this community that want more directional single-use trails. Many of the 147 comments described what our staff experiences as well - the constant need to be cautious while on bikes in an effort to avoid collisions with pedestrians.

    We also recognize the need to accommodate trail users that either exclusively or occasionally use the trails for hiking or running. These users commented about the need to step off the trail every few minutes on busy days to allow mountain bikers to safely pass.

    While we greatly appreciate the accommodations our trail users make, we want our patrons to enjoy the trails with ease. While space is limited, any new trails we build will be evaluated for opportunities to create better experiences. Based on what you've told us, we'll be looking for more ways to include directional mountain bike-only trails and hiking-only trails.

    Because our survey responses were so helpful, we want to continue to gather your feedback about our trails system. Do you want Flying Dog to be a directional trail?!?

  2. #2
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    cool thanks! done.

    Flying Dog is a fun trail but only ride it a few times in the spring. I think making cobblestone/flying dog/ 24-7 a counter clockwise loop would be the way to go.

    Really though id like to see them focus their efforts at building up the "free ride" trails. Would like to see some bigger stuff go in like what they have at Canyons or Teton Pass. Put in a big line at Trailside or Bobs basin areas.

  3. #3
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    I agree, I also requested CCW on Flying Dog, and I hope it happens.

    And I agree with your thoughts regarding more difficult trails in PC as a whole. If we look at our trail network as a ski area in terms of technicality, we are probably 60% green, 35% blue and 5% black. I don't think too many ski resorts (unless they were in Texas), would do too well with that kind of a layout.

    My 5 year old son has ridden most trails in the area. When he gets older, he'll have to be riding a unicycle, huffing paint and playing guitar to make it more challenging.

  4. #4
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    I know it won't work everywhere but I'm a huge fan of directional trails. Phil's World in Cortez, Colorado is by far the best designed riding area I've yet to ride. 100% directional, only mountain bikers on the trails and very well maintained.
    Carpe Diem!!

  5. #5
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    I'm not sure I get making FD a directional trail. If it is open to everyone ( hikers, dogs, kids in strollers, unicyclists, cats on mountain boards etc) what do you gain by making it directional?

    I do think directional trails are good but I think only it really only helps on mtb specific trails. The only other reason to make a trail directional is to benefit other trail users who can then be a bit more prepared for where the onslaught will come. ( which is a fine reason - I think Armstrong works in this regard - up hill only )

    By making Flying Dog CCW, you really only benefit bikers that like to ride it in that particular direction ( me included ) who are looking to go as fast as possible downhill ( me too, come to think of it ). You also take away the ability to use it in more creative loops, and you probably increase the risk for an accident. ( Are you more likely to have a run-in with an up hill mountain biker or a runner/jogger/hiker that has stopped in the shade around a blind corner...? )

    Let's have directional trails, but not try to convert multi-use ones that are already established as part of a heavily used system in multiple directions.

    So even though I usually ride FD CCW, and I think it would be kind of cool to have it directional ( I usually swear under my breath when I run into folks coming up CW ) I still think it would be better left alone.

  6. #6
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    You gain a lot. Pedestrians know where to look for you, 2-way closing bike vs bike speeds are reduced, etc. 99% of the traffic there is bikes.

    I'd go for an even/odd day thing, because I know lots of people who like FD clockwise. I'm a CCW guy, but hey.

    In general, though, yes, we need more directional trails. The tech will exist for IR/low power radar systems that can give you a good idea if someone is coming the other way soon, but it's not here now. In the meantime directional trails mean more fun, and more safety.

    -Walt

  7. #7
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    Clockwise. Or bidirectional. Or alternate days. Or better yet, don't make Flying Dog directional. It's not necessary.

  8. #8
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    How about a better idea? Stoplights! When riding the 2 miles or so from the summit down CCW, I want truly unimpeded biking. So like construction on a 2 lane highway in the mountains when only one lane is open, there will be an automated signal that will make it so you can't bike up this section until the downhill rider has passed. Then the downhill direction will get a red while all the uphillers slog up the hill. We can power it by solar and deer crap, and if you are caught running a red, automated tire spikes will come up.

    Or we could go directional, as I'm not sure if there is enough deer poop up there.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by BullSCit View Post
    How about a better idea? Stoplights! When riding the 2 miles or so from the summit down CCW, I want truly unimpeded biking. So like construction on a 2 lane highway in the mountains when only one lane is open, there will be an automated signal that will make it so you can't bike up this section until the downhill rider has passed. Then the downhill direction will get a red while all the uphillers slog up the hill. We can power it by solar and deer crap, and if you are caught running a red, automated tire spikes will come up.

    Or we could go directional, as I'm not sure if there is enough deer poop up there.

    that made me laugh. perfect. if we can feed the machine dog poop in those bags ( Sure! I'm going to pick it up later! ) then we might solve that problem?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    You gain a lot. Pedestrians know where to look for you, 2-way closing bike vs bike speeds are reduced, etc. 99% of the traffic there is bikes.

    I'd go for an even/odd day thing, because I know lots of people who like FD clockwise. I'm a CCW guy, but hey.

    In general, though, yes, we need more directional trails. The tech will exist for IR/low power radar systems that can give you a good idea if someone is coming the other way soon, but it's not here now. In the meantime directional trails mean more fun, and more safety.

    -Walt
    Good points, Walt. ( You spend more time thinking about these things that I do, and it shows )

    How about the CON: Bikers riding like they stole it because it's directional.

    You can say you wouldn't do it, but you have to admit the reality is that it will happen. I think you might increase the chances of a high speed incident as a result. ( No scientific data here ... gut feelings only ... speaking of which ... i'm hungry! )

    I could maybe get behind odd/even day directions, but does anyone else think that might be too hard for people to figure out? I mean, it clearly isn't, but .... sometimes the obvious stuff isn't so obvious.

  11. #11
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    It's pretty easy to avoid collisions in both directions on FD except at a few blind corners, and you should be careful on those anyway due to pedestrian traffic. On most of it, you can see quite a ways ahead. Careful what you wish for. Next people will be wanting to make Sweeny's/John's downhill only!

  12. #12
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    People will shred it as fast as they can, just like they do now. It will just be safer to do it. Whether that will increase people going too fast or not, meh, I don't think it will. I have direct experience with this type of trail elsewhere both before and after it went directional for bikes - and everyone loves it. Hikers know what to expect, bikes *can* ride faster in some cases, etc.

    I mean, I can ride ~15mph *up* a lot of Flying Dog. If you're coming down it at 20, that's a 35mph closing speed and a lot of corners you might not consider "blind" suddenly are.

    Long story short, everywhere I've seen this tried it's been very popular and a huge success. At the very least a trial period is worth a shot just so that everyone can see what they think.

    John's is a great example of a trail that would never need to be directional, because it's twisty/funky enough that you can't carry tons of speed anywhere regardless. FD is a lot faster and would benefit, IMO.

    _Walt

  13. #13
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    I did FD for the first time since early season on Friday. It was a good time, as my 5 year old son did it for the first time without any help. We did it our traditional CCW and only saw a couple people riding up CW (and most seemed to turn around at the top and ride down CCW). When riding with my kids I don't ride as aggressively, but had a near miss going down with someone charging up (I was able to come to a stop and get off the trail before he got to me (and without skidding)).

    I don't know if I would ride any faster (but probably would) if they make it directional. But sure would make it a lot safer for all trail users. Especially for my kids, who like to ride out in front. That is why we ride CCW most of the time, as we don't see too many people riding CW down our CCW climb. So it seems it is a lot of the Jeremys doing out and backs that would be affected by the directional trail.

    It would be cool to see on a busy weekend, what the breakdown of users is. Here are my rough estimates from my 30 or so times of riding FD:

    Full CCW loop: 60%
    Full CW loop: 15%
    Up CW/down CCW: 24%
    Up CCW/down CW: 1%

    But I have to admit, I'm a rehabilitated CWer. As the first 10 or so times I did FD was that way. But I am man enough to see the error in my ways.

    And WTF is up with that new trail that connects the two different sides of Bob's Basin? Hopefully it gets better when packed down, but that will definitely cut down on me doing laps on the downhill trails down there.

  14. #14
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    The new 24-7 section was necessitated by some Glenwild d-bag freaking out that the old trail touched a few inches of his/her private property. It sucks, and yes, it's going to cut way down on people lapping those trails. Which blows, because they are great trails to ride laps on. IMO a little cutoff to connect to Ant Farm at the low point would be worth adding, just for lazy (me!) people.

    I think, believe it or not, that a lot of people *don't know where the preserve connector goes*. They literally do FD as an out-and-back because they don't want to get lost. So just some more signage would probably solve most of that.

    The climb going CW is a little bit (but not much) easier, too.

    Regardless, directional with some direction changes periodically would be awesome.

    -Walt

  15. #15
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    I would vote for and even/odd or some type of direction change.

    Also, on the 24-7 change it would be nice if there was a cutoff from crazy 8 or even further down to eliminate Fink Again. Or a cut off on Fink again where it gets close to Crazy 8 before the last switch backs.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    The new 24-7 section was necessitated by some Glenwild d-bag freaking out that the old trail touched a few inches of his/her private property.

    -Walt
    I suspect there was more to it than that, otherwise a 2 foot detour would have done the trick.

  17. #17
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    I haven't looked at the maps. Regardless, it was a private property thing.

    -W

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    What difference does it make and who enforces the "directional" rules.

    Each time I ride Armstrong I run into riders going downhill. Some are apologetic and have legitimate excuses. Others not.

    Yesterday, 6 downhillers (pads, etc) were going down and they acted like they didn't know. Spoke good English with no accent but apparently can't read.

    Who enforces these rules?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by wingforward View Post
    What difference does it make and who enforces the "directional" rules.

    Each time I ride Armstrong I run into riders going downhill. Some are apologetic and have legitimate excuses. Others not.

    Yesterday, 6 downhillers (pads, etc) were going down and they acted like they didn't know. Spoke good English with no accent but apparently can't read.

    Who enforces these rules?
    I'm only a fan of one direction on a limited basis, but it makes a difference for the "community" of riders overall. And it makes a difference for hikers, I'm sure. I've stated my opposition to one way on FD, but I'll comply with whatever everybody else wants to do. There is no force of law, though. It's pretty much self regulation, but I'm one of those weirdos who tends to stop at stop signs when no one else is there.

  20. #20
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    Yeah, it's just honor system. I don't think anyone is going to put you under citizen's arrest for riding the wrong way. Getting yelled at by everyone going the other way gets old fast for most people.

    -Walt

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    Utahn's tend to be a "that law doesn't apply to me" type. That is why they are such great drivers......... don't get me started. If trails are made directional it will only apply to those who want to obey the rules. You will still have to expect riders coming the wrong way. That is what they do. Just like having to wait for 5 cars to run the red light before you can go on the green. I like directional trails, and I think they will make a great addition to our trail network but switching older trails to directional may not be worth the effort.

  22. #22
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    I have been a part of doing this on an existing and popular trail (in Colorado) and people figure it out pretty quickly - and like it. Certainly worth a try.

    -Walt

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  24. #24
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    Thanks for posting that! Hopefully we'll see some experimentation with directional use in the spring when the trail melts out.

    -Walt

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    I see the pros and cons of a directional trail. Interactions with hikers will be at higher speeds, but more predictable since closing direction is known. The nicest part would having to worry about bike-bike interactions, which tend to have a lot faster closing speeds.

    Then again, if I really want to be going fast, on any trail, it is going to be at night. With all trail users having lights, there is almost never a surprised hiker or biker. Even with headphones.

    I like the alternating direction despite the fact I almost always ride ccw these days, alternating days work well as seen in city creek and mill creek.

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